Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

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eliakon
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by eliakon »

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:The flavor text for this unit says that the integral pack is removable and replaceable. Neat yes... but that in no way invalidates that the Mag-5 is a standard issue part of the armor.

I agree that it is standard issue FOR the armor, but I do not see it as part of the armor itself. How many flight capable Power Armors have integrated flight packs with "descriptive" designations like Mag-5 or Falcon or CS-500? That would seem to reinforce the view that it is a separate system that comes with the Armor, but is not part of the armor itself*.

Its a feature though.

ShadowLogan wrote:The MDC by Location doesn't even mention said flight pack either, and the feature entry doesn't even address it.

What part of "it is feature #3" doesn't it address?
It is listed as a feature. That sort of means it is a feature.
Unless we are changing the definition of the word "feature" to something new that means it is... well a feature.

ShadowLogan wrote: All the other Jet Packs I've listed have MDC values (and w/exception of the Russian one) have weight/mass and at least one dimension. If we agree that it is removable then that should impact the MDC location list since you can target said location on numerous power armor suits or other body armor users w/those other jetpacks.

Correct, we know that there is text that should be there that is missing.
That error though does not mean that it stopped being a feature.

ShadowLogan wrote:*example in Rifts Mercenaries the NG-S2 (pg101) it lists a variety of items that come with the pack, but aren't actually part of the pack in the integrated sense. The "Canteen and a food rations bag", "pair of climbing gloves", "four ceramic spikes", "four signal flares", "two person tent" obviously aren't part of the pack itself, but they come with it

Those are not listed as 'features' of the pack so this is apples to allen wrenches.
To make the demonstration that 'feature' means 'not actually part of' you need to have something listed as a feature... and then be said to not be included as a part of the unit itself.
And even THIS still doesnt help the discussion. As those are all parts of the 'system' and are thus included in its weight, cost, ect...
So even the flawed argument here proves my point. That things listed as a part/component of something are... wait for it... parts of the thing and come with it automatically.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Khanibal »

I think the OP meant Jet Packs are pretty cool for a P.C.
As far as tactical uses, they're great for surgical strikes. If a commander's whole philosophy is to wrap his guys in cheap armor, give them cheap rifles and strap jet packs to them, that's going to have a limited shelf life. It might fly (pun intended) for the first or second kingdom he attacks, but the third one will probably bite the bullet and spend the 10Kcr on 4 fragmentation short range missiles each and start picking the flyers off as soon as they cross the 5mi. mark. Coupled with the fact that the air troopers are all probably less than 3rd level* with Pilot: Jetpack around 62%, and attrition is going to go through the roof.

*Anyone who makes it past 3rd level has to be super-loyal or they're going to take their cheap armor and cheap rifle and fly off with their cheap jet pack to find an employer who'll treat them better.
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Well, I just threw my guns down, walked away. Little bastard shot me in the ass.”

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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Nether wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
.. Stuff ..


--
Is there any particular reason why your being such a jerk to me? Or why you can't have a civil conversation without being derogatory or insulting?
There doesn't appear to many people posting in these forums and constantly getting insulted in every post i'm sure does not make this an 'enjoyable' place to be.


If you find having your inane and provably incorrect statements called out and proven wrong "deragatory" or "insulting" i suggest the problem is you.

Do you not understand when I say that I don't have my books to check stats and I put a question mark next to it to indicate I'm not sure if that is accurate?


Because you dont have a book in front of you that you plainly had to have in front of you to list the stats of the CA-7, as it is the only book it is printed in.

Show me where I have ever claimed to be an 'expert' on the Mag-5 / CA-7? For all I have stated is what is exactly written in the books.
-though I'm sure you were trying to be more insulting than anything.


Again, if having your blatant ignorance pointed out to you is "insulting", then the problem is you. You can correct it by not being ignorant of the topic.

You apparently do not understanding the difference between flavor text and rules.


Since im actually a published RPG writer, i would say I have a far better idea of the difference between flavor text and rules. (And yes, that is an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but it's true nonetheless). You apparently have no idea of the difference between flavor text and descriptive text. Flavor text is something that adds apocryphal info to an item ("These are popular among CS special forces" - that's flavor text) - Descriptive text is something that describes how something works or looks, and is integral to it functioning with the rules system.

Because they are not the same even though you treat them so, nor do they have the same value.
So hey, you want to disagree on this then so be it, as there is obviously no reason to discuss this part with you.
Heck, if you can't respond to me without being so rude then just don't respond, otherwise discuss away.


You keep using that word, but you haven't even seen rude. What you've seen is just me debunking your garbage theory.

How can you not see exactly what comes with the suit of armor? It says it right in the stat block, there is nothing to refute.


You're going to point out where i said it doesn't come WITH the armor, right? Oh, right, you cant, because i never said that. In fact, i said that is most certainly comes WITH the armor, but that is clearly not PART of the Armor. As it is explicitly called out as not being PART of the armor.

There is no interpretation here,


Hey, we agree!

it's literally listed as a part of the armor that weighs 20 lbs.


No, it isn't. SOME of its relevant statistics are given. Nothing in that line says "is built into the armor". You're assuming something because it fits your preconceived notion.

Flavor text says it can be swapped out for a different pack,


Actually, the DESCRIPTIVE TEXT says that it "can" be attached (implying that it is normally NOT attached) to the armor, and that the attachment points can also hold an ammo drum or energy packs. It says nothing about swapping it out for a different pack.

but none of those are included in the armors core features like the jet pack.


And? Again, how many DOZENS of items would you like me to point out that have similar text, where an (optional) item is included in the stat block but that optional item is NOT part of the thing in question?

The jet pack's weight is probably missing, but that's not what the armor stats show. Everything listed in it's stat block is included in the weight unless it says otherwise.


.. since the PC shock troops wont let me post the Ascii Picard facepalm, youll just have to imagine that here.

If your assertion would then be that all of those optional parts must be standard and on the item


Show me where have I said that? You can't because I didn't, and the only 'assertion' here is you claiming I said something I did not say.


No, i'm not. I'm saying you cant have it both ways, which is what you're trying to do. Either this item, like all the others i was talking about, is actually separate, or ALL OF THOSE ITEMS must be the same was as this item, and all those optional parts are not, in fact, optional and are part of the base item, even though they clearly aren't.

Your making things up to support your side.


Such as?

The only thing I've said is what exactly is listed in the armor stat block which you seem to keep refuting as 'standard' part of the armor stat block. I'm quoting facts from the book, your making things up, yet I'm disillusioned.


I've made up.. what precisely? And the word i used was delusional. I.E. seeing things that are not there or imaginary.


The rules trump all;
Because then breathing isn't possible. Or your heart pumping. Or gravity.


Now your just being extreme and making no sense.


No, im using your "logic", for lack of a better term, and applying it to the rules. You said if the rules dont say you can do it, you cant.

The only rules being mentioned is the armor stat block telling you what it has and does. If there were any rules about what your talking about then it would be in the rule section governing how those things work, but as they are so extreme with the exception of gravity (because you know there is other planets in Rifts, not to mention space) that they have no value here.

Saying that the jet pack weight is just missing from the stats is most likely, though that is your assumption which I happen to agree with, but and a big BUT is it is not listed in the armor stats. Therefore it is canon unless you can prove it via errata or an author quote saying specifically that, if not then your just making it up, regardless of how many 'other' examples you have because they to need the exact same proof. This doesnt mean we can't be logical and assume it is missing, but then it is a house rule. But, I've already said this multiple times now.

You could see that I meant CA-2 instead of CA-4, hence why I put in the ?? and comment I don't have access to my books to be accurate. That's all you had to say as the rest of that is moot.


Oh, the "i declare your argument moot" dodge.

Its illegal for any Non-CS forces to have, just like the CA-3, CA-4, CA-4 (Nautical), CA-5 Juicer Armor, and CA-6C/EX. - I.E. the new armor.
Because the only way you can get it is to have stolen it from the CS Special Forces, or bought it from someone who did. So theyll kill you for having it. This isn't rocket surgery.


You missed my point, because I was not talking about "non CS", I was talking about CS. As far as I recall, there is no other suit of CS armor that has the same comment under it, because non authorized CS with it is a death penalty to have the CA-7. Other suits of armor only say it is illegal. Now this may be clarified in another section of the book, but under this gear it only states this suit, which could be a possible reason to why this armor would be 20 lbs with jet pack. I was saying I doubt that reasoning too, but it is a possible reason for the current stats. Then insert comment of ridicule because you didn't understand that.


I understood it perfectly. What you seem to be missing is that when the CS finds you in possession of illegally obtained CS property, the sentence is death. On the spot. And always has been. In fact, the only illegal thing you can get away with possessing int he CS and not being sumarilly executed (at least pre-Minion War, im sure things are relaxed for that) is Wilks' items since they were outlawed - and that gets you fined and the gear seized.

But that is why it is also WAY slower, has a MUCH lower altitude ceiling, and FAR shorter range.
Other jet packs are far larger. And faster, higher-flying, and have much better range.


I have never said anything about any of these stats of jet packs in any of my posts. Your trying to make a point where there is none.
The only thing I've been trying to show initially was that jet packs could be smaller than 3 ft astronaut packs. Hence why I also mentioned the Terrain Hopper PA jet pack and built in AI(cyborg) jet pack.
So if your trying to make a point with this then it's not because of anything I've said.


The point im making is your entire premise is full of BS because you lack a fundamental understanding of the topic.

Warning: Insulting other.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Khanibal wrote:I think the OP meant Jet Packs are pretty cool for a P.C.
As far as tactical uses, they're great for surgical strikes. If a commander's whole philosophy is to wrap his guys in cheap armor, give them cheap rifles and strap jet packs to them, that's going to have a limited shelf life. It might fly (pun intended) for the first or second kingdom he attacks, but the third one will probably bite the bullet and spend the 10Kcr on 4 fragmentation short range missiles each and start picking the flyers off as soon as they cross the 5mi. mark.


You have to be able to target them first. Jet Pack troopers dont have to fly far above the ground, and Radar is only useful if you can actually get LoS on the target. Unless you've got your radar installation on a VERY high tower looking down on the area around your town and have clear-cut the area, you're going to find that tactic nearly useless. And its not a couple of frag missiles are going to take out lots of guys - they dont have to fly right next to each other.

Coupled with the fact that the air troopers are all probably less than 3rd level* with Pilot: Jetpack around 62%, and attrition is going to go through the roof.


Since they dont have to make pilot rolls for basic operation, i'm not seeing why that is relevant at all.

*Anyone who makes it past 3rd level has to be super-loyal or they're going to take their cheap armor and cheap rifle and fly off with their cheap jet pack to find an employer who'll treat them better.


You're also assuming that they're just going to be zooming around on their jetpacks all the time.

Far easier to just walk to to your town/walls and jump over them, rendering your outter defenses useless and moving straight to street-to-street fighting where they have an advantage of being able to reposition easily.

Again, i'm not saying its the bestest thing ever, but its a lot better than people give it credit for.

And after you conquer one or two kingdoms, you can probably stand to upgrade their armor. Explorer is cheap as dirt. And that "cheap" LR is one of the best on the market until you get to pulse weapons (of which the L-20 is also "cheap).
Im loving the Foes list; it's the only thing keeping me from tearing out my eyes from the dumb.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by eliakon »

Massive rant from Colonel Tetsuya in spoiler, deconstructed point by point.
But the upshot is the same one question over and over "what part of feature do you not understand?"


Spoiler:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nether wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
.. Stuff ..


--
Is there any particular reason why your being such a jerk to me? Or why you can't have a civil conversation without being derogatory or insulting?
There doesn't appear to many people posting in these forums and constantly getting insulted in every post i'm sure does not make this an 'enjoyable' place to be.


If you find having your inane and provably incorrect statements called out and proven wrong "deragatory" or "insulting" i suggest the problem is you.

And again your making personal attacks here.
And interestingly you are snipping out the quote unquote provably incorrect statements... which is fascinating since you have yet to support your stance that they are wrong other than assert that we are wrong to disagree with you.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Do you not understand when I say that I don't have my books to check stats and I put a question mark next to it to indicate I'm not sure if that is accurate?


Because you dont have a book in front of you that you plainly had to have in front of you to list the stats of the CA-7, as it is the only book it is printed in.

You might want to check you facts before you go insulting people...
as it was Shadow Logan and myself that listed the stats.
Perhaps you might want to verify who said what before lobbing insults and claiming people are liars. Hint, this is one reason most people put who said what instead of just 'quote' so that it is clear that they are quoting the right person.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Show me where I have ever claimed to be an 'expert' on the Mag-5 / CA-7? For all I have stated is what is exactly written in the books.
-though I'm sure you were trying to be more insulting than anything.


Again, if having your blatant ignorance pointed out to you is "insulting", then the problem is you. You can correct it by not being ignorant of the topic.

And again your being rude and insulting while avoiding answering the question.
YOU are the one claiming that he said he was an expert. And you did so rudely.
When you got called out on this, you now are saying that it is his job to accept your rudeness AND to accept the words you put in his mouth. AND that only your opinion counts because any disagreement or asking for clarification is 'ignorance'
So again...why are you so hostile to actually having a discussion?

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
You apparently do not understanding the difference between flavor text and rules.


Since im actually a published RPG writer, i would say I have a far better idea of the difference between flavor text and rules. (And yes, that is an appeal to authority logical fallacy, but it's true nonetheless). You apparently have no idea of the difference between flavor text and descriptive text. Flavor text is something that adds apocryphal info to an item ("These are popular among CS special forces" - that's flavor text) - Descriptive text is something that describes how something works or looks, and is integral to it functioning with the rules system.

You say you are an expert...
...but you do not seem to be one.
Because as an author you should know what the word "feature" means.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Because they are not the same even though you treat them so, nor do they have the same value.
So hey, you want to disagree on this then so be it, as there is obviously no reason to discuss this part with you.
Heck, if you can't respond to me without being so rude then just don't respond, otherwise discuss away.


You keep using that word, but you haven't even seen rude. What you've seen is just me debunking your garbage theory.

No, we have all seen rude here.
Debunking is one thing. And to be clear you haven't debunked a thing. To debunk something you need what we call "Facts"
Your statement that "This is so because I said it is" is not a fact.
Making a personal attack, calling someone ignorant, calling them a liar calling things 'garbage' and the rest? That is rude and against the TOS.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
How can you not see exactly what comes with the suit of armor? It says it right in the stat block, there is nothing to refute.


You're going to point out where i said it doesn't come WITH the armor, right? Oh, right, you cant, because i never said that. In fact, i said that is most certainly comes WITH the armor, but that is clearly not PART of the Armor. As it is explicitly called out as not being PART of the armor.

Have you READ THE BOOK?
You know page 104 where it is explicitly stated to be A FEATURE OF THE ARMOR.
Do you know what the word "feature" means?
It is not an option, not an accessory IT IS A FEATURE. As such, yes it is a part of the armor system.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
There is no interpretation here,


Hey, we agree!

Obviously you don't.... as you do not seem to want to use dictionary definitions of words here.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
it's literally listed as a part of the armor that weighs 20 lbs.


No, it isn't. SOME of its relevant statistics are given. Nothing in that line says "is built into the armor". You're assuming something because it fits your preconceived notion.

Again do you know what the word "Feature" means?
Seriously? This is getting old.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Flavor text says it can be swapped out for a different pack,


Actually, the DESCRIPTIVE TEXT says that it "can" be attached (implying that it is normally NOT attached) to the armor, and that the attachment points can also hold an ammo drum or energy packs. It says nothing about swapping it out for a different pack.

It not only CAN be attached, but it always comes that way. That is, after all what the word "feature" means.
Also you REALLY need to watch your quotes.
Your altering quotes here and that is a Violation of the TOS
It is against the rules to attribute to a person something they did not say.
This is something that I said, not him.
So credit your quotes correctly.
Because as it is you are making it look like you do not care about honesty or accuracy at all in this.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
but none of those are included in the armors core features like the jet pack.


And? Again, how many DOZENS of items would you like me to point out that have similar text, where an (optional) item is included in the stat block but that optional item is NOT part of the thing in question?

Again this is my quote.
Credit ME not HIM.
It ISNT HARD
And you have yet to provide any of these supposed items.
I have asked, repeatedly for evidence of your claim that you can do this. And all you do is repeat they exist... PUT UP OR SHUT UP I want to SEE these things you claim have listed features that are not part of the item.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The jet pack's weight is probably missing, but that's not what the armor stats show. Everything listed in it's stat block is included in the weight unless it says otherwise.


.. since the PC shock troops wont let me post the Ascii Picard facepalm, youll just have to imagine that here.

Yes we agree, the Palladium editing makes all sorts of problems.
And once again stop lying and properly credit the people who say things.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
If your assertion would then be that all of those optional parts must be standard and on the item


Show me where have I said that? You can't because I didn't, and the only 'assertion' here is you claiming I said something I did not say.


No, i'm not. I'm saying you cant have it both ways, which is what you're trying to do. Either this item, like all the others i was talking about, is actually separate, or ALL OF THOSE ITEMS must be the same was as this item, and all those optional parts are not, in fact, optional and are part of the base item, even though they clearly aren't.

Your horribly quoting here is hard to follow, but I will try
It seems that you are trying to argue that even though something is listed as feature of the armor... that it is not REALLY a feature of the armor?
I ask again... do you know what the word "Feature" means? Because your entire argument here seems predicated on a novel usage of it that is not consistant with dictionary English.


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Your making things up to support your side.




Such as?

Such as the concept that you can selectively choose which features of an item are included in the item? Is that a good start?


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The only thing I've said is what exactly is listed in the armor stat block which you seem to keep refuting as 'standard' part of the armor stat block. I'm quoting facts from the book, your making things up, yet I'm disillusioned.


I've made up.. what precisely? And the word i used was delusional. I.E. seeing things that are not there or imaginary.

You have made up the concept that a feature of an armor is not a part of the armor.


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The rules trump all;
Because then breathing isn't possible. Or your heart pumping. Or gravity.


Now your just being extreme and making no sense.


No, im using your "logic", for lack of a better term, and applying it to the rules. You said if the rules dont say you can do it, you cant.

To bad your "logic" is just trolling. Because the rules clearly cover breathing, and falling, and bleeding. Nice try. How about you be less rude, and try and follow the TOS?


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
The only rules being mentioned is the armor stat block telling you what it has and does. If there were any rules about what your talking about then it would be in the rule section governing how those things work, but as they are so extreme with the exception of gravity (because you know there is other planets in Rifts, not to mention space) that they have no value here.

Saying that the jet pack weight is just missing from the stats is most likely, though that is your assumption which I happen to agree with, but and a big BUT is it is not listed in the armor stats. Therefore it is canon unless you can prove it via errata or an author quote saying specifically that, if not then your just making it up, regardless of how many 'other' examples you have because they to need the exact same proof. This doesnt mean we can't be logical and assume it is missing, but then it is a house rule. But, I've already said this multiple times now.

You could see that I meant CA-2 instead of CA-4, hence why I put in the ?? and comment I don't have access to my books to be accurate. That's all you had to say as the rest of that is moot.


Oh, the "i declare your argument moot" dodge.

Considering your entire argument is moot? I mean since arguments have to be phrased in actual words? And since you are not using English to argue it is moot? Seriously if you are not going to use words as they are defined, but as you want to use them and pick their definitions each time it comes up... that isn't talking that is... whatever it is.
Start by reading the dictionary definition of "feature"

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Its illegal for any Non-CS forces to have, just like the CA-3, CA-4, CA-4 (Nautical), CA-5 Juicer Armor, and CA-6C/EX. - I.E. the new armor.
Because the only way you can get it is to have stolen it from the CS Special Forces, or bought it from someone who did. So theyll kill you for having it. This isn't rocket surgery.


You missed my point, because I was not talking about "non CS", I was talking about CS. As far as I recall, there is no other suit of CS armor that has the same comment under it, because non authorized CS with it is a death penalty to have the CA-7. Other suits of armor only say it is illegal. Now this may be clarified in another section of the book, but under this gear it only states this suit, which could be a possible reason to why this armor would be 20 lbs with jet pack. I was saying I doubt that reasoning too, but it is a possible reason for the current stats. Then insert comment of ridicule because you didn't understand that.


I understood it perfectly. What you seem to be missing is that when the CS finds you in possession of illegally obtained CS property, the sentence is death. On the spot. And always has been. In fact, the only illegal thing you can get away with possessing int he CS and not being sumarilly executed (at least pre-Minion War, im sure things are relaxed for that) is Wilks' items since they were outlawed - and that gets you fined and the gear seized.

obviously you don't understand it. Because you are still arguing your old stance even when the actual facts have been explained.
The discussion is about how the CS treats it to other CS soldiers. Non-CS personal don't even enter into the discussion so your "explanation" about them is irrelevant.
Try to focus on the actual topic at hand, and try to read what people are SAYING, not what you want them to say so you can prove yourself right.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:


But that is why it is also WAY slower, has a MUCH lower altitude ceiling, and FAR shorter range.
Other jet packs are far larger. And faster, higher-flying, and have much better range.


I have never said anything about any of these stats of jet packs in any of my posts. Your trying to make a point where there is none.
The only thing I've been trying to show initially was that jet packs could be smaller than 3 ft astronaut packs. Hence why I also mentioned the Terrain Hopper PA jet pack and built in AI(cyborg) jet pack.
So if your trying to make a point with this then it's not because of anything I've said.


The point im making is your entire premise is full of BS because you lack a fundamental understanding of the topic.

Besides making a personal insult here did you have anythign to say?
Because that seems to be your response to anyone questioning anything you say, you insult them, call them names and then refuse to anser the question because "only an idiot would ask that" or some such.
The speed doesnt matter
The altitude doesnt matter
The range doesnt matter
No one CARES about that... because they dont matter.
The ONLY thing that matters here is if this pack is smaller than the other packs.
Period.
It wouldnt matter if it had a speed of 10mph, a ceiling of 10 feet and a duration of 10 minutes.
if it was a Jet Pack, and it was smaller than 3' x 1.5' x 2' then it is... wait for it... smaller than the other jet packs and as a black swan demonstrates that not all jet packs must be buliky 3x2x1.5 units.
Bringing up irrelivant information does nothing but try and confuse the issue.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Khanibal »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:And its not a couple of frag missiles are going to take out lots of guys - they dont have to fly right next to each other.


No, I'm willing to spend 10k to kill each one of them.


Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Since they dont have to make pilot rolls for basic operation, i'm not seeing why that is relevant at all.


If I GM and Johnny Quest is swapping fire with city defenders, I'm gonna ask him to make a piloting roll. I'm a d!ck like that. It comes from having read the TMNT Road Hogs long before I picked up RIFTS.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Far easier to just walk to to your town/walls and jump over them, rendering your outter defenses useless and moving straight to street-to-street fighting where they have an advantage of being able to reposition easily.

Again, i'm not saying its the bestest thing ever, but its a lot better than people give it credit for.


If you'll reread my post, you'll see that I said they were good for surgical strikes and quick insertion, the problem is that it's a surprise tactic, and if you use the same surprise tactic over and over, people anticipate it. If Warlord #3 doesn't have observers outside his walls to report 1000 dudes with big backpacks and "Death from Above" tats sneaking up to the walls, he deserves to lose the fight.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Honestly this is getting close to becoming a flame war.

Kananibl the rules say when you fire a weapon or take fire while piloting you need to make a pilot roll so your GM call is inline with RAW. (Personally I do not see landing on uneven surfaces or high speed normal operation of a jet pack)
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Khanibal »

Blue_Lion wrote:Honestly this is getting close to becoming a flame war.

Kananibl the rules say when you fire a weapon or take fire while piloting you need to make a pilot roll so your GM call is inline with RAW. (Personally I do not see landing on uneven surfaces or high speed normal operation of a jet pack)


Actually, Col-T and I aren't even really arguing. We both agree using the jet packs as he suggested is a good idea. I'm just pointing out that nothing happens in a vacuum. It won't be long before the other kingdoms in the area shore up their defenses, increase their surveillance, increase their intelligence gathering, hire the PCs, etc. It's like the quote attributed to P.T. Barnum "You can't fool all of the people all of the time."
"Then one day, I was just walking down the street and I heard a voice behind me say, 'Reach for it Mister.', and I spun around and there I was face to face with a six-year-old kid.
Well, I just threw my guns down, walked away. Little bastard shot me in the ass.”

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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Further info on the "The CA-7's jetpack is not part of the armor" argument:

Sourcebook 4, CS Navy has stats for the Naval versions of the Standard Dead Boy Armor and the Special Forces Armor, the CA-4mk2 and the CA-7mk2.

The CA-7 mk2 plainly states:

"The only changes from the original design are the inclusion of a depth/pressure gauge, and gyro system, and that the armor is specially reinforced to withstand greater depth pressures".

Want to guess what ISN'T listed as part of the armor?

The Jet Pack.

But one can be attached - the Modular Backpack system is mentioned as item number 6.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Nether »

ShadowLogan wrote:And rules can not be found in flavor text why? As far back as the original Main Book, part of the Glitterboy "flavor" text mentions things that are considered features and rules. The USA-G10's water and food supply isn't listed anywhere else in the entry, and then there are rules for wearing the GB suit to long.

It is #3. If the suit is 20lbs complete with integrated Jet Pack (as you suggest, text says otherwise though) it would be lightyears ahead of what Triax can do (T-21) or Kittani (K-Universal) suits can do in terms of Power Armor, never mind that both of these powers are decades ahead of the CS technologically (canon statement). You can't even do that with Contra-Grav systems. Plus if we take the approach that it is integrated to the armor, it really isn't a jet pack system like those being considered.

The rules can be in flavor text, but it more mundane things like the Glitterboy support system ext, when further the depth of the object, in this case the armor.

But rules generally should all be put in the rule section, aka in the stat block. All they needed to do was add "detachable" to the Jet pack feature. What is the point of having rules and flavor text with rules when you already have a rule section for the game.

Also it doesn't matter that the suit would be more advanced than NGR because of this, because the stats are what they are. You and I can figure out that something is missing or doesn't add up, but that doesn't change what is listed as standard default functions / rules of the armor.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Nether »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Umm have you READ the TW storm flare recently?
It causes a sudden rainstorm in a 100 foot radius, from 2000 feet up. It has NO movement penalties what so ever, and CERTAINLY is not going to force anyone to land, let alone affect miles and miles of terrain. And heck if you can fly higher than 2000' you can fly over the magical cloud that is raining!

Now the spell Summon Storm? Yeah sure... Imagine that though a level 13 strategic magic might be an influence in combat? Who'd a thunk it?

So back to the main point... yeah, outside of some really odd edge cases, or contrived circumstances, or other weird-o-rama stuff I have yet to have anyone explain why you would NOT want to
A: skip one or two suits of PA and have entire units of airmobile infantry instead of not having infantry at all
or
B: Have about 10-15% more infantry but have them be more vulnerable, less mobile and harder to supply.

Creating specialized edge cases of "well if this rare thing, and this rare thing happened in this unlikely scenario while you were trying to fight in this very rare terrain..." are just demonstrations of how to create situations that are so rare as to not be statistically relevant.
The point of a military is not to be the perfect force against any possible force that could ever be conceived of. That simply can't be done, you can always think of some way to neutralize a force if you are allowed enough edge cases. The point is to be the best force against the contingencies that are most likely to be a threat.

Must have been thinking of the wrong item. Could have sworn it was summon storms.
So the attackers need what a level 4 high magas then.

That was intended to point out simple things in the scenario could affect the outcome.

There is alot of basic things that affect its efftivness you just refuse to see it.

Your jetpack troops are going to need space to land in safly, so a forest could potentially reduce your ability to mass against some one driving towards you quickly. Sure you can drop in any where in the wide open kill zone of a defended location, but the defenders have access to defense fortifications.

Jetpack troops would be fairly easy to detect approaching in massby any tech using foe. Giving the defenders a chance to get in position so while you need less time to mass and set up they have more time to do it.

Your jetpack troops need to slow down to land they cant just zerg in, your target has access to the same or often better ranges. Landing and taking off under fire has skill roll requirements. That means % of casualties.

Magic has access to different things that amount to outliers and availability varies greatly.

Mission, unless you are one of the greater powers or a merc force traveling around allot your troops typically do not need to travel very far to protect your community. Merc forces typically do not maintain near by basses at all their missions so need to transport more gear with them so jet packs are not going to be main transport of choice for mercs.

If both armies have the same buget, and number of troops what did the other side spend your jet pack fund on? (oh better weapons you just jumped into a fight you are outgunned, better run away how many people failed their roll for landing under fire and taking off under fire)

They have their uses as QRF but there is to much out there that can affect their use for them to be your main combat force of choice.[/quote]
Yes there is a lot of things that can affect a large body of jet pack troopers but at the same time that jet pack offers such huge benefits all around that it makes any force with even a decent amount of them extremely versatile and formidable while using the same firepower as a group pounder.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by eliakon »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Further info on the "The CA-7's jetpack is not part of the armor" argument:

Sourcebook 4, CS Navy has stats for the Naval versions of the Standard Dead Boy Armor and the Special Forces Armor, the CA-4mk2 and the CA-7mk2.

The CA-7 mk2 plainly states:

"The only changes from the original design are the inclusion of a depth/pressure gauge, and gyro system, and that the armor is specially reinforced to withstand greater depth pressures".

Want to guess what ISN'T listed as part of the armor?

The Jet Pack.

But one can be attached - the Modular Backpack system is mentioned as item number 6.

Yep no jetpack...
but it has features number
#5 Maneuvering Jets
#6 a Modular Back Pac System
#7 a special ops breathing tank
...

So either it is not REALLY "identical" to the SA-7... or the SA-7 has maneuvering jets, and a backpack and an air tank...
Oh and for MORE giggles, the maneuvering jets and the like... yep, once again add no weight.

Your not winning anything here...because once again you are ignoring what the word "feature" means when it is convinent for you to do so.
AND your ignoring that this suit of armor is as badly written as the Glitter Boy.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Nether »

eliakon wrote:Correct, we know that there is text that should be there that is missing.
That error though does not mean that it stopped being a feature.
Those are not listed as 'features' of the pack so this is apples to allen wrenches.
To make the demonstration that 'feature' means 'not actually part of' you need to have something listed as a feature... and then be said to not be included as a part of the unit itself.
And even THIS still doesnt help the discussion. As those are all parts of the 'system' and are thus included in its weight, cost, ect...
So even the flawed argument here proves my point. That things listed as a part/component of something are... wait for it... parts of the thing and come with it automatically.

You good sir are awesome. I feel like I've been swinging this sledge hammer for a while and getting no where.

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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Khanibal »

My jump troopers have a minimum PS of 11 then are all trained in Body Building, Boxing, Physical Labor, Forced March, Athletics, and Acrobatics. They all have Talismans of Winged Flight, prepared by a 10th level mage. The talisman is the size of a silver dime, so .071 troy ounces or .078 avoirdupois.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Nether »

Khanibal wrote:I think the OP meant Jet Packs are pretty cool for a P.C.
As far as tactical uses, they're great for surgical strikes. If a commander's whole philosophy is to wrap his guys in cheap armor, give them cheap rifles and strap jet packs to them, that's going to have a limited shelf life. It might fly (pun intended) for the first or second kingdom he attacks, but the third one will probably bite the bullet and spend the 10Kcr on 4 fragmentation short range missiles each and start picking the flyers off as soon as they cross the 5mi. mark. Coupled with the fact that the air troopers are all probably less than 3rd level* with Pilot: Jetpack around 62%, and attrition is going to go through the roof.

*Anyone who makes it past 3rd level has to be super-loyal or they're going to take their cheap armor and cheap rifle and fly off with their cheap jet pack to find an employer who'll treat them better.

I know some earlier suggested putting them in plastic man armor which to me has no staying power if they get hit getting into position, but something stronger like Gladiator armor, 6 frag and 2 smoke nades, L-20 e-rifle.

It might make for a smaller squad but the idea in this case would to be to bring firepower to bare on location quickly and efficiently as there is only so many high ground landing points, but as well large number of bodies flying around take up a lot more space that make being precise hard. They would have staying power, nades for blanket bombing or clearing fortified points and L-20 burst fire to emphasize lightning strikes before falling back if to strike from another angle. Ideally they should never be staying in one spot for to long and always blitzing points.

Loyalty I dont think would be as much of an issue as most of them if not all would be fighting for their homes and family, something not easily abandoned. And even if they do, their light kit is not favorable without resupply and need of others to be most effective, as a single jet packer just won't be as effective as a unit of even 6, more to make blitz attacks effective as a single guy doen't have the firepower to make that happen and stick to hit and run.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Khanibal »

Nether wrote:
Loyalty I dont think would be as much of an issue as most of them if not all would be fighting for their homes and family, something not easily abandoned. And even if they do, their light kit is not favorable without resupply and need of others to be most effective, as a single jet packer just won't be as effective as a unit of even 6, more to make blitz attacks effective as a single guy doen't have the firepower to make that happen and stick to hit and run.


I think you're talking defensive use where I was talking about offensive use. A quick reaction force to reinforce your static defenses is actually a pretty good idea.

Heh, sounds like we're writing the rules for RISK: The Rifts Version.
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Well, I just threw my guns down, walked away. Little bastard shot me in the ass.”

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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Khanibal wrote:Heh, sounds like we're writing the rules for RISK: The Rifts Version.


"I deploy 3 units of heavy robots to the border, and support them with 5 battalions of jump jet militia and a Hydra. That ends my turn."


"Oh hey, can I equip my Hydra with a jet pack (a few minutes of checking the rules later) sweet! that improves his combat response time and reduces terrain move penalties!"
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Nether »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:insults...


By your responses it shows you are not following this discussion, which is more of you attacking my points with trolling. I'm not responding to you as having a 'discussion' with you is not possible.

@moderators
I don't want this discussion locked as it is a good discussion and most of us here are interested in discussing the topic. But feel free to throw down some warning or whatever you guys think will help keep this on topic. I'm ignoring the trolling and moving forward on topic.

Khanibal wrote:I think you're talking defensive use where I was talking about offensive use. A quick reaction force to reinforce your static defenses is actually a pretty good idea.

I actually mean both.
Defensively; they can reinforce just about any area very quickly depending where attack is strongest. They can also take high ground for best flanking. For approach or cover they have smoke. Ground pounders using smoke could be less effective and JP unit can just flank quickly to where they are going. Both can spread out to avoid aoe damage like nades, but JP unit can all move to be in sight and positioned to best pick off a groundpounder edge, where the gp have to reposition and expose themselves, which next round the jp unit can change all over again.


So just to start with some basic build, which is far from refined.
Say 6 soldiers with

Explorer Armor - 45k
Falxon 300 Jet Pack - 46k
L-20 Rifle 25k
NG Plastic Exp - 965 pnd
8 plasma grenades 275/ 2400
2 smoke grenades 50/ 100

118500 / 711000 total

So without jet pack (ground pounders) soldiers have 276k to spend elsewhere for 6 guys. So make that 2 more guys for total 8 and the remainder is what you paid for two more soldiers. Pit the two groups vs each other in whichever scenario you like to show how they can perform.
The JP squad though can probably control all engagements, will most likely have advantage in positioning and can fall back when they decide. They can also deliver explosives to vehicles or against def positions where that is much much harder for the GroundPounder unit.

The JP unit is 2 less guys and technically less fire power compared to 8 GP unit, but I think the JP 6 would be able to beat the 8 in the vast majority of situations just due to that mobility.

Now I need to check on say jet bike pricing and see if worth for ground guys.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by Mack »

Warning issued for insults.

Please be respectful of others, even if you disagree with them.
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Re: Jet Packs n Hoverbikes. Sorely underrated.....

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

eliakon wrote:Its a feature though.

It might be a feature, but it is a removable and replacable feature since we are explicitly told that and the "feature" listing doesn't contradict that. And not all features are going to be labed as features (ex. See Portable Laboratory or Portable Scan Dihilator, nothing is labled as a feature).

In any case the Mag-5 issue is just a tangent can we get back to the more general discussion.
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