TX-42 vs TX-46

[(SHIFTY)]

Hello all. I was trying to decide which was the better weapon of the two. The non giant sized TX-42 from WB 5 Triax and the NGR or the TX-46 Partcle Beam Rifle from Triax 2. Thoughts? Opinions? Thanks!

[Axelmania]

Page numbers for convenience:
*Laser TX-42 is WB5p145
*Particle Beam TX-46 is WB31p99

Range is king if you have tactical control, the laser wins there. Particle beam has much better damage, which is good if you can keep close enough to any enemies with better range. Laser has much bigger payload if you need to take out multiple enemies or if conditions might cause you to miss a lot.

When you take into account the laser needs to triple-pulse to even approach the PB damage (it's still 8 less) the 40 payload drops to 13 shots. It definitely has inferior damage output, laser is mostly useful for taking out a bunch of low-armored / SDC targets.

Particle beam also appears more accurate, gets a +1 from laser targeting if you aim. Of course you could probably attach something like that to the TX-42 also.

Crits on natural 19s is also a huge damage advantage for the PB. I think in the end I would side with the TX-46 being superior unless I had to snipe a bunch of goblins without MDC armor.

[taalismn]

Range is good, favoring the laser, but only if you can spot the enemy before they spot you. Otherwise, if you're both fighting close in, BLASTING the other guy is your best bet.
It's kinda like the old aircraft machine gun vs canon debate.

[Mack]

I'd take the TX-46 just about every time.

As others have noted the only advantage to the TX-42 is the range, which may not even come into play.

Between the +1 strike, the double damage on a 19+, and the higher base damage, over the long run the TX-46 will inflict 150% damage of the TX-42. Easy choice.

[Axelmania]

Payload is also an advantage, if you only need 1 shot to beat someone (ie no MDC armor) then 40 shots is better than 30.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Depends greatly on how you want to use it.

If you're going to go realistically, then the PB. Most infantry combat takes place at ranges under 300 meters. Either of those weapons has an effective range of more than 300 meters, right? Even with high-tech forces, most infantrymen engage their targets well within 300 meters. And not many monsters have a ranged attack other than magic that will reach out several hundred feet. So since max range is no longer a consideration, that leaves power, rate of fire, bulk (which Palladium doesn't take into consideration), and user friendliness.

Pulse rifle does not equal select-fire. This one is a tie. With the game mechanics, the P-beam wins simply because +3 (or +2, or whatever the Aimed modifier is now) > +1 (pulse). Unless this has been changed too, IDK, haven't bothered with the Palladium mechanics in.....23 years?

P-beam is more powerful (puts the enemy down faster), and gets a crit twice as often. P-beam wins this one.

Bulk doesn't factor into Palladium games, but looking at the pics I'd give it to the laser rifle. It's like comparing an AR pistol to an M4.

User friendliness....again, the P-beam gets it simply because IT HAS A DAMN STOCK. Whichever one of the illustrators first decided that longarms were "Teh KOOLZ!" without a stock deserves to experience something very bad. Very, very bad. Something the size of a rifle, that doesn't have a stock, is going to be unwieldy to use even if it doesn't have any recoil, simply because it will be harder to aim effectively (unless you've got a system similar to the Smartlink cyberware from Shadowrun, which I don't recall seeing an equivalent to in any Palladium product, but it could be there). I've taken the stock off my AK's, AR's, etc, before during very detailed cleaning, or while swapping out parts, etc, and then tried looking down the sights. I've also fired a few of the things that I own (ok...most of what I own) like a pistol, and even doing it two handed it's a pain. Hell, my Skorpion *IS* a pistol, and it's a pain to fire like a pistol. And I'm not talking about recoil management, I'm talking stability and effectively using the sights/optics. Shoulder stocks exist for a reason, and it's not just because it makes a handy bashing weapon when the enemy is right on top of you.

Game-wise....meh, whichever you prefer for whatever reason you can justify to yourself. I'd probably go with the particle beam, personally.

[Shark_Force]

i would worry more about the likelihood of someone having armour than someone not having MDC armour.

[Axelmania]

Most infantry combat takes place at ranges under 300 meters.

I don't think we should assume that modern trends necessarily extend to combat with MD weapons which have the capability of firing through SDC barricades.

i would worry more about the likelihood of someone having armour than someone not having MDC armour.

I'm not sure what you are trying to communicate here. Knowing the odds of people having armor is the same thing as knowing the odds of them not having it. One leads to the other.

Looking at the expense of MDC armor, I think it is likely many do not have it.

For example, the D-Bees the NGR must expel from their borders.

They might have MD weapons they'll use to try and kill humans or gargoyles, as weapons are cheaper than armor.

[ShadowLogan]

Hello all. I was trying to decide which was the better weapon of the two. The non giant sized TX-42 from WB 5 Triax and the NGR or the TX-46 Partcle Beam Rifle from Triax 2. Thoughts? Opinions? Thanks!

Depends on what you consider most important...

Weight:... TX-42 is lighter than a TX-46 by a few pounds, probably not a major consideration depending on a variety of factors, but might be important (ex. how close does the GM look at weight encumbrances).

Range:... TX-42 has a longer range than the TX-46. Range likely is not going to be a major factor in typical engagements unless you plan on shooting at large targets OR targets that are at an elevated/depressed angle (like shooting at someone on a roof, or shooting down from a roof).

Payload:... TX-46 has more payload than the TX-42, at least when one takes damage into consideration and not the raw number. IIRC you need to fire 4 single shots in the TX-42 to match a single TX-46 shot (this reduces the greater raw payload by 1/4) or the close burst fire option (this reduces the payload to about 1/3, and leaves you with one light shot).

Damage:.... TX-46 hits harder per shot and IINM doesn't burst. The TX-42 hits lighter and does burst for comparable damage.

Bonuses:.... TX-46 comes with several built-in bonuses, bonus to strike (aimed) and a larger critical threat range. The TX-42 comes with none of that. Both weapons IINM though can be augmented, but at that point it becomes a wash.

If you are looking for the most versatility I would go with the TX-42 as it gives more attack options (range, damage) and potentially good payload (if one uses the lighter damage setting).

However in terms of performance in likely encounters the TX-42's range isn't going to be much of a factor, and weapon hits harder and longer on a single eclip (if eclip payload is adjusted for in terms of damage) and is more accurate. This IMHO gives it a better edge.

[dragonfett]

Let's not forget that the TX-42 halves it's strike bonuses in order to make a pulse shot (meaning a character with WP: E-Rifles is going to be x2 better aiming the TX-46 while doing a little bit more damage than using the TX-42 and trying to do the same damage).

That being said, it could also come down to cost, availability, and timeline. The TX-42 costs between 50k-75k with a poor availability on the Black Market while the TX-46 starts at 76k and is unavailable on the Black Market (makes you wonder how the characters get them in the first place), and depending on when the GM is setting the game, it may not even have been developed yet.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

That being said, it could also come down to cost, availability, and timeline. The TX-42 costs between 50k-75k with a poor availability on the Black Market while the TX-46 starts at 76k and is unavailable on the Black Market (makes you wonder how the characters get them in the first place),

From Triax, directly. They DO sell to people other than the NGR Government. There are official outlets in NA, even, in Free Quebec, now that FQ and the CS are back on friendly terms. Or if you live in Europe... from Triax, directly. They sell to everyone on the continent. Dont really need to go to the Black Market when you can just go down to the Triax store and buy one.

and depending on when the GM is setting the game, it may not even have been developed yet.

True but the TX-45 is only marginallydifferent. inferior. that 5D6+6 makes the average range of damage/consistency pretty good, actually.

[taalismn]

i would worry more about the likelihood of someone having armour than someone not having MDC armour.

In Rifts, the naked guy advancing on your position is either crazy, crazy but godawful powerful, or is not really a guy and more likely something able to tear you to pieces barehanded. Best not to find out.

[pad300]

That being said, it could also come down to cost, availability, and timeline. The TX-42 costs between 50k-75k with a poor availability on the Black Market while the TX-46 starts at 76k and is unavailable on the Black Market (makes you wonder how the characters get them in the first place),

From Triax, directly. They DO sell to people other than the NGR Government. There are official outlets in NA, even, in Free Quebec, now that FQ and the CS are back on friendly terms. Or if you live in Europe... from Triax, directly. They sell to everyone on the continent. Dont really need to go to the Black Market when you can just go down to the Triax store and buy one.

Not at all sure that that follows. Yeah Triax makes the TX-46 and the TX-42, but they are full up military hardware - the TX-46 being their latest and greatest. They sell that stuff to acceptable governments, just like you can't go and buy a SAM launcher on the street. Triax have a completely different line of non-military weapons that they make, the WR line (WB5, pg 144 to 148) for civilians, not to mention a whole bunch of other things for civilian life - ranging from aircars to robo-butlers! I'm pretty sure that FQ wouldn't let them sell full up military hardware to anyone but the FQ government (while in FQ of course).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

That being said, it could also come down to cost, availability, and timeline. The TX-42 costs between 50k-75k with a poor availability on the Black Market while the TX-46 starts at 76k and is unavailable on the Black Market (makes you wonder how the characters get them in the first place),

From Triax, directly. They DO sell to people other than the NGR Government. There are official outlets in NA, even, in Free Quebec, now that FQ and the CS are back on friendly terms. Or if you live in Europe... from Triax, directly. They sell to everyone on the continent. Dont really need to go to the Black Market when you can just go down to the Triax store and buy one.

Not at all sure that that follows. Yeah Triax makes the TX-46 and the TX-42, but they are full up military hardware -

Uhh.. yeah. They are primarily an arms manufacturer. It stands to reason they make military hardware.

the TX-46 being their latest and greatest. They sell that stuff to acceptable governments, just like you can't go and buy a SAM launcher on the street.

They also export it to North America for resale there - like the Ulti-Max, X-10 Predator, and Forager Battlebot for instance. Or the (very) military TX-30 Ion Pulse Rifle, TX-16 Pump Rifle, and TX-500 Borg Rail gun. (SB1, SB1r). They had stopped exporting to the Americas because of an agreement with the CS to stay out of the war with Free Quebec (mentioned in CWC, Free Quebec, and Aftermath) to keep diplomatic relations cordial, but it was noted that stuff was still being exported, and just sold to the Black Market (in smaller numbers). After the war, they resumed sales to the public in North America both through a deal with Free Quebec and other arms merchants to resell their goods. (Mentioned in Aftermath).

They dont export the full line of Body Armor (an agreement with the CS; they dont want people running around in body armor that is patently better than CS armor), or most of the robot and PA designs (as they have an exclusive contract with the NGR military for most of those)... but their small-arms are wide open. Now, it isn't super likely that a lot of the newer ones have hit the NA market yet (though the TX-6 revolver explicitly states that theyve already become quite popular in the New West) simply because the NGR military's demand for them will likely be high.. but you CAN just purchase straight from Triax.

Triax have a completely different line of non-military weapons that they make, the WR line (WB5, pg 144 to 148) for civilians,

Yeah, NGR Civilians, who aren't allowed to own military-grade hardware. Non-civilians are allowed, though, and the NGR military often employs mercenaries - they just have to check their weapons outside of town. Funnily enough, there are huge portions of the world that aren't the NGR that are still markets for Triax's goods. Like England. And the Poznan Collective. And Tarnow. And they aren't just selling to those governments. Triax sells on the open market.

It may be illegal for a civilian to own "military grade" hardware in super-civilized or controlled areas (like FQ, the NGR, and Coalition States) but literally NONE of the other large kingdoms we're shown have laws like that. It's totally legal to own a Hovertank and a TX-500 and a TX-42, some mini-missle lauchers, and whatever else you like in Lazlo, The Relic, New Lazlo, the Federation, the Baronies, Ishpeming/MI, wherever.

You can literally just walk down to the local dealer and buy one in all of those places, provided you have the money. Now, most of those places DO have laws about leaving your heavy guns and armor and the like outside of town, but that's not the same thing at all. I'd have to check, but i vaguely recall there even being a Triax store in Merctown, though i could be remembering wrong.

not to mention a whole bunch of other things for civilian life - ranging from aircars to robo-butlers! I'm pretty sure that FQ wouldn't let them sell full up military hardware to anyone but the FQ government (while in FQ of course).

I doubt FQ really cares as long the clients are human. They get so much support from the NGR and Triax that they are likely happy to let them sell their weapons. After all, getting the specialized fusion plants for the Glitter Boys from Triax is the only way they can keep up GB production. There is even some mention in FQ that if the war were to end they might let Triax build local factories/partnerships with FQ businesses.

I mean, it's not like even the CS military stops you and confiscates all your gear if you're in their geographical territory just for shiggles. As long as you're not a D-Bee (in which case the shakedown/theft is happening because you're a D-Bee) or other obvious malcontent, its totally OK for mercs and adventurers to travel through CS territory fully armed with military grade hardware. CS *citizens* can't own that stuff without a special license, but if you're just passing through/working in the area, even the CS doesn't care. (As long as it isn't Naruni weaponry.. then, well, you're shot on sight).

[Shark_Force]

i would worry more about the likelihood of someone having armour than someone not having MDC armour.

I'm not sure what you are trying to communicate here. Knowing the odds of people having armor is the same thing as knowing the odds of them not having it. One leads to the other.

Looking at the expense of MDC armor, I think it is likely many do not have it.

For example, the D-Bees the NGR must expel from their borders.

They might have MD weapons they'll use to try and kill humans or gargoyles, as weapons are cheaper than armor.

i'm saying that "better when your opponent is massively underequipped" is a silly reason to consider an otherwise inferior weapon.

In Rifts, the naked guy advancing on your position is either crazy, crazy but godawful powerful, or is not really a guy and more likely something able to tear you to pieces barehanded. Best not to find out.

in all of those cases, i would still rather have the weapon that is better against armoured targets (in 2 of those 3 cases, it's still the better weapon. in the remaining one case it isn't likely to matter, the higher ammo against extremely soft targets is not nearly as valuable as hitting harder against everything else).

[Hotrod]

It's an M16 vs a shotgun. I'd take both.

[Shark_Force]

It's an M16 vs a shotgun. I'd take both.

eh, not so much. the particle beam is competitive in most of the areas where the laser is good, but a lot better in key areas. with a shotgun, your range is much more limited than with an M-16 (potentially less than 100 feet with any great accuracy on the shotgun and probably not more than 200 feet vs several hundred feet with an M-16), and ammo is usually much more restrictive (often less than 10 rounds in a shotgun as compared to i believe usually 30 in an M-16).

practically speaking, line of sight is going to be your main limitation on range more so than the range of your weapon (which is also true today. well, that and ability to aim accurately), at least once you've got a weapon that can shoot several hundred feet... it's nice to have, but unless you're going specifically for anti-aircraft role, not likely to come into play often (bearing in mind that in rifts, "aircraft" is more likely to mean any number of vehicles with a height restriction of a few hundred to a few thousand feet than to mean anything remotely like a modern jets or even a WWII-era airplane).

so in most situations, you're really looking only at a bit more ammo if you single-fire the weapon that needs to burst to stay competitive in damage.

the laser is not without advantages, but i wouldn't consider them compelling enough to haul around two longarms everywhere you go.

[Hotrod]

My flippant reply was going off my memory of both weapons, and it looks like I confused the TX-46 with the shotgun weapon from Triax 2. I'll break it down with both books now:

Range: 610 meters for the TX-42, 425 meters for the TX-46. Advantage Laser
Damage: 2D6/1D4x10 for the TX-42, 1D4x10+8 for the TX-46, with double damage on 19 or 20. Advantage Particle Beam
Accuracy: No bonuses for the TX-42, +1 to strike for the TX-46 on aimed shots. Advantage Particle Beam
Payload: 40 single/13 pulses for the TX-42, 24 for the TX-46. Advantage Particle Beam*
Cost: 50k-75k for the TX-42, 76k for the TX-46. Advantage Laser
Weight: 9 lbs for the TX-42, 11 lbs for the TX-46. Advantage Laser
Aesthetics/realism: The TX-42 has visible iron sights, but lacks a stock, which is important for distance shooting. The TX-46 has a stock, but lacks any visible sights. Toss-up.

The TX 42 holds advantages in weight, cost, and range. Situational advantages include a higher payload for lower damage shots, making it better for conserving ammo against hordes of weak enemies, the inherent sneakiness of the silent and hard-to-trace nature of laser weapons, and its variable frequency settings which could arguably allow it to operate underwater without penalty.

The TX-46 has decisive advantages in damage, maximum-damage payload, and accuracy. The only situational advantage I can think of is that it does full damage to all laser-resistant armors without any need to adjust.

Analysis: When one is engaged in M.D.C. combat, the two most-important factors are damage and accuracy. The laser rifle is less accurate in single fire, and it has to fire pulses to even get close to the particle beam rifle, which further reduces its accuracy. Both weapons are intended to be used in assault, which tends to involve shorter-range shooting, so the range advantage of the laser rifle has little bearing on its primary purpose. For heavy "front lines" combat, the particle beam rifle is the clear choice.

However, there's a lot more to most adventures than conventional heavy combat. Underwater and amphibious operations are important (as the war described in Triax 2 demonstrates), and the laser rifle is the clear choice there. Furthermore, the ability to kill quietly and slip away is extremely important in scouting missions, skirmishes, guerilla warfare, and ambushes, and the laser rifle has a decisive advantage over the particle beam, since it is both silent and difficult to trace.

tl;dr The laser weapon is better for sneaky and amphibious fighting, while the particle beam is better for intensive combat.

[(SHIFTY)]

So, in reading Triax 2. The TX-42 is not available on the black market or so it says under cost. Can this still be purchased in Triax store? Merctown?

[Mack]

Thought I'd follow up on my earlier comment about the TX-46's damage advantage.

Suppose a level 1 Grunt fires each weapon 20 times as a "single shot" (RUE p361, a non-aimed shot) with a pulse from the TX-42. He needs an 8 or better to hit. And for simplicity, I'll use the average damage roll of each weapon (25 MD for the TX-42, and 33 MD for the TX-46).

For the TX-42:
-- A strike roll of 1-7 is a miss, 0 MD. A strike roll of 8-19 is a hit, 25 MD. A Nat 20 is double, for 50 MD.
-- So the overall average for the TX-42 is 17.5 MD per attempt.

For the TX-46:
-- A strike roll of 1-7 is a miss, 0 MD. A strike roll of 8-18 is a hit, 33 MD. A Nat 19 & Nat 20 is double, for 66 MD.
-- So the overall average for the TX-42 is 24.75 MD per attempt.

So for a Single Shot, the TX-46 hits for 141% of the TX-42.


Now I'll run the same event, but with an Aimed Shot (Aimed Pulse for the TX-42).

For the TX-42:
-- A strike roll of 1-6 is a miss, 0 MD. A strike roll of 7-19 is a hit, 25 MD. A Nat 20 is double, for 50 MD.
-- So the overall average for the TX-42 is 18.75 MD per attempt.

For the TX-46:
-- A strike roll of 1-4 is a miss, 0 MD. A strike roll of 5-18 is a hit, 33 MD. A Nat 19 & Nat 20 is double, for 66 MD.
-- So the overall average for the TX-42 is 29.7 MD per attempt.

So for an Aimed Shot, the TX-46 hits for 158% of the TX-42.

This illustrates the value of the TX-46's strike bonus, and more likely Critical strikes.

[Shark_Force]

lasers (particularly lasers that will melt a modern tank in seconds) are not all that silent. they will scorch the air, and that will not be silent, and i suspect that while it is perhaps not the most visible thing ever i don't imagine it is truly invisible either. furthermore, to anyone with any kind of ability to see in the EM frequency range that the laser is firing in (which for some lasers is the standard visible light spectrum from what we can tell), there will be plenty of scatter (particularly if there's smoke, which there will be when the laser hits and vaporizes something) making the trail of the laser visible.

[Hotrod]

lasers (particularly lasers that will melt a modern tank in seconds) are not all that silent. they will scorch the air, and that will not be silent, and i suspect that while it is perhaps not the most visible thing ever i don't imagine it is truly invisible either. furthermore, to anyone with any kind of ability to see in the EM frequency range that the laser is firing in (which for some lasers is the standard visible light spectrum from what we can tell), there will be plenty of scatter (particularly if there's smoke, which there will be when the laser hits and vaporizes something) making the trail of the laser visible.

While I actually agree with you, the canon description of lasers indicates that they are in fact silent, and that the beams are normally invisible absent clouds, dust, smoke et cetera. Even if you reject the canon description, these lasers are likely to be far less conspicuous when firing than a particle beam weapon would be.

[Shark_Force]

the lasers are going to create smoke, dust, clouds, etc the instant they hit.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

lasers (particularly lasers that will melt a modern tank in seconds) are not all that silent. they will scorch the air, and that will not be silent, and i suspect that while it is perhaps not the most visible thing ever i don't imagine it is truly invisible either. furthermore, to anyone with any kind of ability to see in the EM frequency range that the laser is firing in (which for some lasers is the standard visible light spectrum from what we can tell), there will be plenty of scatter (particularly if there's smoke, which there will be when the laser hits and vaporizes something) making the trail of the laser visible.

While I actually agree with you, the canon description of lasers indicates that they are in fact silent, and that the beams are normally invisible absent clouds, dust, smoke et cetera. Even if you reject the canon description, these lasers are likely to be far less conspicuous when firing than a particle beam weapon would be.

And here we have another example of why I consider 'canon' to be nothing more than a series of suggestions.

[Hotrod]

the lasers are going to create smoke, dust, clouds, etc the instant they hit.

True, but that doesn't give the target a great deal of information about the location of the shooter.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

lasers (particularly lasers that will melt a modern tank in seconds) are not all that silent. they will scorch the air, and that will not be silent, and i suspect that while it is perhaps not the most visible thing ever i don't imagine it is truly invisible either. furthermore, to anyone with any kind of ability to see in the EM frequency range that the laser is firing in (which for some lasers is the standard visible light spectrum from what we can tell), there will be plenty of scatter (particularly if there's smoke, which there will be when the laser hits and vaporizes something) making the trail of the laser visible.

While I actually agree with you, the canon description of lasers indicates that they are in fact silent, and that the beams are normally invisible absent clouds, dust, smoke et cetera. Even if you reject the canon description, these lasers are likely to be far less conspicuous when firing than a particle beam weapon would be.

And here we have another example of why I consider 'canon' to be nothing more than a series of suggestions.

Eh... meh?

For certain things, canon is canon is canon. For most things really. For other things (things that simply dont work as expected) its easy to classify them as “Kevin (and most game designers) or not weapon/laser/engineering experts” mistakes - good faith mistakes - and simply correct them and move on.

But as far as the story goes, and rules, canon is what it is.

[Shark_Force]

the lasers are going to create smoke, dust, clouds, etc the instant they hit.

True, but that doesn't give the target a great deal of information about the location of the shooter.

laser is (supposedly) hard to detect unless there is smoke (this is nonsense, but for the sake of argument we'll pretend that it isn't).

whatever you fire the laser at, it will be into smoke because the laser makes smoke at the point of impact, thus making the laser easier to see. it creates a trail pointing back to the source.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

lasers (particularly lasers that will melt a modern tank in seconds) are not all that silent. they will scorch the air, and that will not be silent, and i suspect that while it is perhaps not the most visible thing ever i don't imagine it is truly invisible either. furthermore, to anyone with any kind of ability to see in the EM frequency range that the laser is firing in (which for some lasers is the standard visible light spectrum from what we can tell), there will be plenty of scatter (particularly if there's smoke, which there will be when the laser hits and vaporizes something) making the trail of the laser visible.

While I actually agree with you, the canon description of lasers indicates that they are in fact silent, and that the beams are normally invisible absent clouds, dust, smoke et cetera. Even if you reject the canon description, these lasers are likely to be far less conspicuous when firing than a particle beam weapon would be.

And here we have another example of why I consider 'canon' to be nothing more than a series of suggestions.

Eh... meh?

For certain things, canon is canon is canon. For most things really. For other things (things that simply dont work as expected) its easy to classify them as “Kevin (and most game designers) or not weapon/laser/engineering experts” mistakes - good faith mistakes - and simply correct them and move on.

But as far as the story goes, and rules, canon is what it is.

For you, sure. If that's how you roll, more power to ya. One of the great things about tabletop RPG's is its even easier to change things than it is in video games. Another great thing is you're not required to play the same way as whoever wrote it.

[Hotrod]

the lasers are going to create smoke, dust, clouds, etc the instant they hit.

True, but that doesn't give the target a great deal of information about the location of the shooter.

laser is (supposedly) hard to detect unless there is smoke (this is nonsense, but for the sake of argument we'll pretend that it isn't).

whatever you fire the laser at, it will be into smoke because the laser makes smoke at the point of impact, thus making the laser easier to see. it creates a trail pointing back to the source.

Also true after the first few attacks as long as the cloud has dispersed to a fairly large volume. The length of the trail will be limited to the radius of the cloud, which may limit the pointing value. The stealthy characteristics of lasers in canon would generally apply to sneak attacks but far less to intensive combat.

[Shark_Force]

the lasers are going to create smoke, dust, clouds, etc the instant they hit.

True, but that doesn't give the target a great deal of information about the location of the shooter.

laser is (supposedly) hard to detect unless there is smoke (this is nonsense, but for the sake of argument we'll pretend that it isn't).

whatever you fire the laser at, it will be into smoke because the laser makes smoke at the point of impact, thus making the laser easier to see. it creates a trail pointing back to the source.

Also true after the first few attacks as long as the cloud has dispersed to a fairly large volume. The length of the trail will be limited to the radius of the cloud, which may limit the pointing value. The stealthy characteristics of lasers in canon would generally apply to sneak attacks but far less to intensive combat.

the beam of the laser is probably less than an inch in diameter, but has enough energy concentrated in it to destroy a main battle tank in less than 3 seconds without hitting any vulnerable areas. it is not going to burn things, it is going to sublimate them. the resulting superheated gas is going to look remarkably like an explosion. there will be a cloud.

[Axelmania]

Audibility of lasers aside, has anything been said anywhere about how much noise particle beams make?

In Rifts, the naked guy advancing on your position is either crazy, crazy but godawful powerful, or is not really a guy and more likely something able to tear you to pieces barehanded. Best not to find out.

In Rifts, you may not see the naked guy advancing on your position, and if he manages to kill you before you can hit him back, his lack of armor is irrelevant.

i'm saying that "better when your opponent is massively underequipped" is a silly reason to consider an otherwise inferior weapon.

I don't consider lacking lacking MDC armor to be underequipped. Considering how expensive it is to buy new or to repair, that's got to be most people, who will have to get by via camouflage, running behind cover, attacking indirectly over barriers via grenades, etc.

[Shark_Force]

the most likely winner is the person who can afford to make the most mistakes. armour still lets you sneak, use cover, etc, but also allows for you to make a bunch more mistakes than not wearing armour. a person who cannot take an MD hit is massively underequipped for an MD fight when there are plenty of people who *can* take MD hits.

it is particularly a bit silly when we're talking the high end of weapons. i mean, if you're talking about MD shotgun shells vs naruni rounds strapped to the end of an arrow, sure it is reasonable to consider edge cases where someone can't afford MD armour. in this case, we're looking at two weapons, and the cost of either of those could cover a lower cost weapon plus a lower cost armour.

[Natasha]

Audibility of lasers aside, has anything been said anywhere about how much noise particle beams make?

I don't know the answer.

But in my opinion, and more or less off the top of my head, neither are noisy but the vaporised material is.

The laser's wavelength and required effective range determine the spot size. A ruby laser and a CO[sub]2[/sub] laser would have the same energy but the ruby laser has the larger energy density due to a smaller spot size. There are limits, though. The smaller the spot size, the smaller the possible effective range.

If damage by lasers is based on energy density, then two atmospheric effects will cause a lot of damage potential loss. Absorption and scattering (a function of the atmosphere's constituent molecules and their density along with the laser wavelength) will increase the beam size while thermal lensing will decrease the energy. These atmospheric effects require laser engineers to build lasers much more power than they need to be to do damage at some prescribed effective range.

I don't see how a laser (or particle beam) would be particularly loud until the beam's energy was deposited on the target for lasers (inside the target for particle beams) causing the material to vaporise. Which is just going to blow out more or less spherically and not radially back to the source of the laser; although, obviously, an explosion on the front size gives some indication of the source.

The heated air channel does create a thermal lens causing subsequent pulses to diverge at a rate faster than natural diffraction alone would (or in the in the case of particle beams it would extend the beam's range but the time required could be too long to be useful against a stationary target). The time required to create a thermal lens is the beam spot size divided by the speed of sound. But don't see the channel revealing the source of the laser either. Perhaps thermal imaging would pick it up, if not reveal the beam itself.

[Axelmania]

Prowl penalties make it harder to sneak, assuming you have the skill at all.

What we really suffer from is a lack of punishing encumbrance rules. I would tire quicker if I had to lug around a suit of 30 lbs of armor.

If I got to relying on it to takes hits for me, I'd have to skip meals to pay for repairs.

I suppose environmental systems could pay in protecting from bacteria/illness via air filtration. Might need some Vitamin D supplements from never getting any sun.

[Shark_Force]

if you're going to be encumbered by armour, you're also going to have encumbrance rules for hauling around 2 rifles everywhere. and frankly, most rifts armour isn't 30 lbs. i think the plastic man, one of the least expensive armour options, is a whopping 11 lbs from memory. and since iirc all environmental body armour has climate control, 11 lbs with air conditioning sounds a lot better than 0 lbs without air conditioning in a lot of situations (which honestly might have been a feature added to the armour just to make people actually wear the danged stuff when normally it would be near impossible to get an army to perpetually wear body armour without some very strict discipline )

[Hotrod]

the lasers are going to create smoke, dust, clouds, etc the instant they hit.

True, but that doesn't give the target a great deal of information about the location of the shooter.

laser is (supposedly) hard to detect unless there is smoke (this is nonsense, but for the sake of argument we'll pretend that it isn't).

whatever you fire the laser at, it will be into smoke because the laser makes smoke at the point of impact, thus making the laser easier to see. it creates a trail pointing back to the source.

Also true after the first few attacks as long as the cloud has dispersed to a fairly large volume. The length of the trail will be limited to the radius of the cloud, which may limit the pointing value. The stealthy characteristics of lasers in canon would generally apply to sneak attacks but far less to intensive combat.

the beam of the laser is probably less than an inch in diameter, but has enough energy concentrated in it to destroy a main battle tank in less than 3 seconds without hitting any vulnerable areas. it is not going to burn things, it is going to sublimate them. the resulting superheated gas is going to look remarkably like an explosion. there will be a cloud.

I agree that there will be a cloud. How large will that cloud be, and how quickly will it expand to that volume? If a single laser weapon shot happens over something like a quarter second, and a vaporized bit of sublimated armor expands explosively, then your position would seem to be sound.

I believe that your position assumes that a laser shot takes longer than what is consistent with canon. Your analogy of the tank destroyed over a period of time under 3 seconds seems to be based on lasers as they exist in real life.

Laser weapons of Rifts fire all their energy in a very, very short period of time. We can infer this based on the fact that they are not described as constant-fire weapons that can hit multiple targets or must be held in place on a single target, and from the fact that many laser weapons are pulse weapons which fire three near-simultaneous pulses of energy which never hit multiple targets. Therefore, lasers are not constant-fire weapons that do damage over time.

Let's consider a case study of an NGR soldier firing a three-shot pulse at a tight cluster of bandits 100 meters away. By rule, only one of those bandits can get hit, and that bandit will take 1D4x10 damage. If the NGR soldier's aim gets thrown off by a single degree over the course of the time it takes to take that shot, his shots will be spread out over an arc of 1.75 meters (~6 feet) wide among the bandits. If all three shots must land within 6 inches of each other (which would seem appropriate), then the weapon would have to fire all three shots before it could rotate more than 1/20th of a single degree. Given how much weapons tend to get jostled in combat, maintaining such a tight shot group in a pulse is only reasonable if each shot happens over a very short period of time and all three shots are fired over a very short period of time.

Laser weapons of Rifts, therefore, are much more likely to fire in almost instantaneous snaps of intense light, like a single flash of a strobelight, not something like a Star Trek phaser that gets held on a target over time.

With that in mind, for a single shot or a pulse to show up in the sublimation cloud of its own impact, the duration of the shot would have to be much slower than the time it would take for the sublimated vaporized material to expand into a cloud, cool to the point where it no longer emits much light (there would be a flash associated with this sublimation) and then allow any eyes or visual sensors to adjust to the illumination such that they could see where the laser is coming from. That seems implausible to me.

Of course, Rifts laser weapons seem implausible to me, too, but hey, it's science fiction.

[guardiandashi]

Of course, Rifts laser weapons seem implausible to me, too, but hey, it's science fiction.

most weaponized lasers are as mentioned short duration "blasts" I would tend to say as an example that a "standard" laser releases its energy in a "pulse" approximately 1/10th second long (or less) with pulse weapons further reducing that time frame, possibly even 1/10th of the "normal" time which would make the "pulse" lasers blasts or pulses closer to 1/100th of a second

[Hotrod]

Of course, Rifts laser weapons seem implausible to me, too, but hey, it's science fiction.

most weaponized lasers are as mentioned short duration "blasts" I would tend to say as an example that a "standard" laser releases its energy in a "pulse" approximately 1/10th second long (or less) with pulse weapons further reducing that time frame, possibly even 1/10th of the "normal" time which would make the "pulse" lasers blasts or pulses closer to 1/100th of a second

I can almost guarantee that a pulse is far shorter than that. Time for fun with math!

[nerd]

The effective range of the TX-42 is 610 meters. Let's assume a soldier pulls a funky spinning jump shot and lands a miracle wild pulse at a man-sized enemy at maximum effective range. By rule, this can only hit one person, so we'll assume that all three shots of the pulse land within 20 cm of each other.

Now the dude doing the spin is spinning at 1 full revolution per second, or 360 degrees/s. This isn't crazy fast; in fact, the natural wobble of holding a weapon is probably as fast or faster than this. If you shined a continuous laser and spun around in a circle in a single second, pointing your laser at the ground 610 meters away from you, your laser would shine on the perimeter of a circle with a circumference of about 3800 meters, as the circumference of a circle is 2*pi*the radius of the circle.

(610*meters*pi*2/second)* duration of triple pulse = the arc length along which the laser impact spreads at that distance.

If the pulse is 1/10th of a second, then the gun will spray along an arc that is 443 meters long! Even a pulse of 1/100th of a second will spray its energy at maximum effective range out along an arc that is 38 meters long.

Now, if I set the arc length equal to the 20 cm or 0.2 meters I mentioned earlier, I can solve for the maximum allowable duration of the triple pulse. This comes out to about 0.000052 seconds, or 5.2 hundred thousandths of a second, or 52 millionth's of a second.

Since I made this assumption for a triple pulse, this requires the pulses to be quite a bit shorter. I'll assume it that such a shot consists of something like this: Zap, pause, zap, pause, zap, and that each pause is about the same length of time as each zap. This means we can divide the total triple pulse time by five to get the duration of each zap. Each zap is therefore approximately a hundred thousandth of a second or less.

[/nerd]

[Shark_Force]

alternately, the laser just sprays elsewhere when it misses and doesn't hit other soldiers for simplicity's sake.

in any event, there will be clouds in any sort of MD combat, whether with lasers or not. the first shot (and pretty much only the first shot) may be obfuscated, but i wouldn't expect anything beyond that (and even then, i suspect the laser burning the air as it passes through will leave some sort of trail, especially to vision outside of what we consider the spectrum of visible light)... but if you just wait for nobody to be looking at the origin point, you can do that with a particle beam as well to limited extent.

[Hotrod]

alternately, the laser just sprays elsewhere when it misses and doesn't hit other soldiers for simplicity's sake.

in any event, there will be clouds in any sort of MD combat, whether with lasers or not. the first shot (and pretty much only the first shot) may be obfuscated, but i wouldn't expect anything beyond that (and even then, i suspect the laser burning the air as it passes through will leave some sort of trail, especially to vision outside of what we consider the spectrum of visible light)... but if you just wait for nobody to be looking at the origin point, you can do that with a particle beam as well to limited extent.

Once again, I agree with you, but canon does not. High-energy destructive events tend to be dirty and cloudy. If anything, I think you may be understating just how smoky and dirty MD combat would be. The air around the combatants would probably get so obscured after the first few shots that you wouldn't see where laser blasts were coming from because the smoke would be way too thick, and finding targets would be quite difficult.

[Axelmania]

most rifts armour isn't 30 lbs.
i think the plastic man, one of the least expensive armour options, is a whopping 11 lbs from memory.

Least expensive in the core book. You're still talking a whopping 18,000 credits.

Merc Ops 109 has the Light Tactical Armor for 9,000 credits, more people will be able to afford that, and it's only 6 pounds. Sure, only 6 MDC, but that's all you need against SDC attacks, and against ranged MD attackers, the difference between 6 and 30 can easily become negligible. If you're at the point where you're taking MD, you're already losing, due to repair economy problems.

We should consider that though they have a higher purchase price that home-made MDC armor (Canada page 191 and Warlords of Russia page 173) might be more common because people can avoid paying that price by making it themselves. I believe that is significantly heavier.

since iirc all environmental body armour has climate control,
11 lbs with air conditioning sounds a lot better than 0 lbs without air conditioning in a lot of situations
(which honestly might have been a feature added to the armour just to make people actually wear the danged stuff when normally it would be near impossible to get an army to perpetually wear body armour without some very strict discipline )

You have a point there, for those who can afford the super-expensive environmental armors.