no ISP cost or duration for Psi-Spear / Psi-Tomahawk WB15

[Axelmania]

I have a 1st printing (July 1997) of World Book 15 (Spirit West) and page 40 under the Mystic Warrior O.C.C. Abiltiies "2. Special O.C.C. Psi-Powers" does not appear to assign an ISP cost to creating either of these weapons or a duration at which either expires.

I was curious if anyone knew if any later reprints of this book might have added something like that, as both abilities seem incredibly powerful without the usual requirement/restriction.

I had thought no-ISP indefinite-duration psi-weapons was supposed to be solely the realm of Cyber-Knights.

Does anyone know if any Rifter Errata might have added those details?

[HarleeKnight]

I have a 1st printing (July 1997) of World Book 15 (Spirit West) and page 40 under the Mystic Warrior O.C.C. Abiltiies "2. Special O.C.C. Psi-Powers" does not appear to assign an ISP cost to creating either of these weapons or a duration at which either expires.

I was curious if anyone knew if any later reprints of this book might have added something like that, as both abilities seem incredibly powerful without the usual requirement/restriction.

I had thought no-ISP indefinite-duration psi-weapons was supposed to be solely the realm of Cyber-Knights.

Does anyone know if any Rifter Errata might have added those details?

My copy is a first printing too and it says both are effectively a psi-sword, so I would rule it has cost and duration the same as psi-sword.

[Axelmania]

Psi-Tomahawk mentions damage is "a bit less than the true psi-sword" so it's not a TRUE psi-sword.

Do you think anyone would harp about assigning the 15 second concentration time? The only mention of attacks I can see is the 2 needed for the throw/hit/return process of the Psi-Spear.

The re-appearing function is an interesting special function, which appears to be the difference (that and the superior range) it has to other psi-weapons.

I actually noticed in the intro on page 39 it says:

Their psionic spears and tomahawks (psi-swords) are legendary

What's rather strange about this O.C.C. is they get W.P. Knife but not W.P. Tomahawk.

Page 39's OCC skill list for the Tribal hunter lists these separately although says "same as W.P. Knife" next to Tomahawk which I figure means it uses the same bonuses per level but for a different class of weapon.

Still wondering how many times this book got reprinted though and if changes were made.

[dreicunan]

Psi-Tomahawk mentions damage is "a bit less than the true psi-sword" so it's not a TRUE psi-sword.

The other stated difference besides damage being that it is available at level 1. Since we have examples of powers that don't cost ISP, and they actually state that, the most logical reading is that it costs the same as a psi-sword and has the same duration (otherwise, it would say something).

Do you think anyone would harp about assigning the 15 second concentration time? The only mention of attacks I can see is the 2 needed for the throw/hit/return process of the Psi-Spear.

The re-appearing function is an interesting special function, which appears to be the difference (that and the superior range) it has to other psi-weapons.

That and actually being able to thrown. (See RUE p. 64, right column, 2nd paragraph of the "Shape" text)

[SpiritInterface]

I have a 1st printing (July 1997) of World Book 15 (Spirit West) and page 40 under the Mystic Warrior O.C.C. Abiltiies "2. Special O.C.C. Psi-Powers" does not appear to assign an ISP cost to creating either of these weapons or a duration at which either expires.

I was curious if anyone knew if any later reprints of this book might have added something like that, as both abilities seem incredibly powerful without the usual requirement/restriction.

I had thought no-ISP indefinite-duration psi-weapons was supposed to be solely the realm of Cyber-Knights.

Does anyone know if any Rifter Errata might have added those details?

We have treated it as if it was the same as a Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword that has no cost or duration.

[Axelmania]

Since we have examples of powers that don't cost ISP, and they actually state that, the most logical reading is that it costs the same as a psi-sword and has the same duration (otherwise, it would say something).

The third option is that while it does have a cost of duration, it might be different than the super-psi, like how the Amaki's is, and they simply left it out, as they have other things in the past. What's glaring is the lack of errata which is why I'm wondering if there are some later printings of Spirit West people might be able to check to see if anything did get added in.

That and actually being able to thrown. (See RUE p. 64, right column, 2nd paragraph of the "Shape" text)

That's just for Cyber-Knight's cost-free weapons. Obviously a free-cost weapon being throwable is a big game-changer compared to high ISP cost weapons being throwable, which is why we don't see that under the super psi power, Amaki Duelists or Psi-Tomahawks.

[dreicunan]

Since we have examples of powers that don't cost ISP, and they actually state that, the most logical reading is that it costs the same as a psi-sword and has the same duration (otherwise, it would say something).

The third option is that while it does have a cost of duration, it might be different than the super-psi, like how the Amaki's is, and they simply left it out, as they have other things in the past. What's glaring is the lack of errata which is why I'm wondering if there are some later printings of Spirit West people might be able to check to see if anything did get added in.

Until such time as that is actually acknowledged by Palladium, however, the canon text remains the canon text, and the most logical thing to do is to limit ourselves to that.

That and actually being able to thrown. (See RUE p. 64, right column, 2nd paragraph of the "Shape" text)

That's just for Cyber-Knight's cost-free weapons. Obviously a free-cost weapon being throwable is a big game-changer compared to high ISP cost weapons being throwable, which is why we don't see that under the super psi power, Amaki Duelists or Psi-Tomahawks.

All of which also can't be thrown; the statement in RUE says "Psi-weapons" without any limitation to cyber-knights. Psi-weapons can't be thrown is the rule. Psi-spears are the exception (because they say that they are).

[ShadowLogan]

Since we have examples of powers that don't cost ISP, and they actually state that, the most logical reading is that it costs the same as a psi-sword and has the same duration (otherwise, it would say something).

The third option is that while it does have a cost of duration, it might be different than the super-psi, like how the Amaki's is, and they simply left it out, as they have other things in the past. What's glaring is the lack of errata which is why I'm wondering if there are some later printings of Spirit West people might be able to check to see if anything did get added in.

That and actually being able to thrown. (See RUE p. 64, right column, 2nd paragraph of the "Shape" text)

That's just for Cyber-Knight's cost-free weapons. Obviously a free-cost weapon being throwable is a big game-changer compared to high ISP cost weapons being throwable, which is why we don't see that under the super psi power, Amaki Duelists or Psi-Tomahawks.

The only other Psi-Weapons I can think of are: Psi-Dagger (Psi-Slayer in WB12 pg72), Psi-Bow (Equinoid RCC in WB9 pg145).

The Psi-Dagger is pretty cheap and quick to create. It can not be thrown, or at least text doesn't mention its throwability.

The Psi-Bow... it has an ISP cost, but it fires energy bolts instead. While not a "thrown" weapon, it is a ranged version of a psi-weapon power. And it puts Mind Bolt to shame in many respects (ISP/-MD Bolt ratio, skills are applicable for increased strike bonus, bonus to strike IINM that doesn't cost extra), but is a Psi-weapon given it is described as "can create an energy 'bow' that fires bolts of mental energy."

One way for a psychic to turn Psi-Sword (or Dagger/Weapon) into ranged weapon might be to use ectoplasam.

[Axelmania]

All of which also can't be thrown; the statement in RUE says "Psi-weapons" without any limitation to cyber-knights. Psi-weapons can't be thrown is the rule. Psi-spears are the exception (because they say that they are).

Being under the Cyber-Knight OCC limits it to the Cyber-Knight's psi-weapons.

You're talking about a parenthesis in a sentence which begins with "The Cyber-knight can create"

If you look at the next paragraph you'll find this sentence:
>"All psi-weapons are energy-based, summoned and shaped by each particular Cyber-Knight."

So ALL psi-weapons are summoned and shaped by Cyber-Knights? I guess that means the Mind Melter / Amaki Duelist / Psi-Slayer / Psi-Taur do not actually make 'psi-weapons', because they are not cyberknights.

Or you can accept that any statements about psi-weapons on this page ONLY pertain to cyber-knight psi-weapons.

One way for a psychic to turn Psi-Sword (or Dagger/Weapon) into ranged weapon might be to use ectoplasam.

In the very least!

A smarter bet too if enemies are within your ectoplasm's range, since then you keep it in hand and don't have to go pick it up every time you attack at range.

I can't recall psi-swords ever being called weightless but maybe I just read it and forgot, the lack of a stated weight could imply that, but I'm not sure. The lack of a stat doesn't always mean it's 0 since we've had errata fill holes like this before.

[dreicunan]

@Axelmania: No one who has read Palladium's works iver the years is going to be surprised in the slightest that a rule is buried in a strange spot. You know this. Stop being obtuse about it.

The simple fact of the matter is that the weight of evidence says that they can't be thrown. Your entire position is based on powers being able to do things that the power doesn't say that they can do. You may as well be arguing that the psi-sword can also do your taxes, watch your kids while you take a shower, and create holographic projections of episodes of Sabrina the Teenage Witch. After all, while the power doesn't state that it can do any of those things, it doesn't state that it can't, and someday errata may finally reveal that Kevin S always intended psi-swords to do them, right?

Or we can acknowledge that powers do what they say that they do, not what they don't say that they do.

[Axelmania]

Dreicunan you accuse me of being obtuse yet have ignored my contrary example. Both of these quotes appear in the same section on cyber-knight OCC abiltiies on RUE 64 Please respond to them both:

The Cyber-Knight can create virtually any single piece Psi-weapon (no projectile weapons or weaposn with moving parts, such as ball and chain, bow and arrow, gun, etc., and Psi-weapons can not be thrown).
..
All psi-weapons are energy-based, summoned and shaped by each particular Cyber-Knight.

If "psi-weapons can not be thrown" (PWCNBT) applies to the super psionic Psi-Sword then "all psi-weapons are .. summoned and shaped by each particular Cyber-Knight" (APWASASBEPC) must also apply to the super psionic Psi-Sword.

This means that only even when a Mind Melter uses the power, it is a Cyber-Knight who summons the sword.

Does this make any sense to you?

[Prysus]

I have a 1st printing (July 1997) of World Book 15 (Spirit West) and page 40 under the Mystic Warrior O.C.C. Abiltiies "2. Special O.C.C. Psi-Powers" does not appear to assign an ISP cost to creating either of these weapons or a duration at which either expires.

Greetings and Salutations. Both mention "Effectively a psi-sword" as the very first line of the power. They then list their differences. Psi-Spears specifically have the line: "the difference being ..." then continuing. For the Psi-Spear, the wording would have to follow that if it's not listed as a difference than it's not different in that way. For the Psi-Tomahawk, it doesn't clearly define those are the differences, but follows the same pattern. And to address the previous response ...

Psi-Tomahawk mentions damage is "a bit less than the true psi-sword" so it's not a TRUE psi-sword.

I noticed you conveniently cut the rest of that line off. To finish that sentence: "a bit less than the true psi-sword, but normally a psi-sword isn't available till level three." They go right back to referring to it as a psi-sword. No, it's not a "true" psi-sword. It's a psi-tomahawk (tomahawks are not swords), but it's "effectively" a psi-sword. They tell us it does less damage (a penalty), followed by how it's available at level one (a bonus to offset the penalty). If it was a true psi-sword, they wouldn't have to detail the power at all as they'd just list a psi-sword as one of the standard powers and be done with it.

Really I see about two ways this line is being interpreted.

1: Like a Psi-Sword, except where discussed as different.
2: Not like a Psi-Sword and we know virtually nothing about it.

I'm inclined to go with the first. I find the latter unhelpful. And, to state this now, if we decide to use the psi-sword for its creation and concept, then (in my opinion) you're cherry picking what you want to use the psi-power for and ignoring whatever you don't like. This, of course, is fine for a G.M. making their house rules. I just think it's important to realize it.

Note: Though it mentions dealing less damage than a Psi-Sword, that's not entirely accurate. At levels 1, 2, 11, 13, 14, and 15 the Psi-Tomahawk does more damage. At levels 6, 8, 10, and 12 the damage is equal. That means in 10 out of 15 levels, the Psi-Tomahawk is equal or superior to the Psi-Sword. The Psi-Sword only deals more damage at levels 3, 4, 5, 7, and 9.

*****

As for whether they can be thrown or not ...

The range is "Self." As soon as you throw it, that range is beyond: Self. Of course, this is Palladium. They do at times use "Self" as the starting point, at which point it can then be moved freely at times. Palladium Fantasy Second Edition main book does provide some added lines that can help shed some light. Now, this is a different game line, so it's possible that the power functions differently, but may also help show intent. PF2 page 178 (top of the page, as this is where the Psi-Sword description continues) ...

"Likewise, the character can willingly dispel the weapon with a thought (costs another 30 I.S.P. to create a new one); it cannot be given to another character to use."

I mention this for two reasons.

1: It tells us that if you dispel the psi-sword you have to spend more I.S.P. to create a new one. This came up in a recent thread, but I don't feel like hunting that one down and responding to it.
2: We're also told that you can't give the psi-sword away. This helps support the range of Self as the extent of the range. If you could still keep the psi-sword created when throwing it, you should be able to also just hand it to someone else.

I doubt I'm going to actually follow this thread as I have no desire to get into a long, pointless debate. However, I figured I'd provide a reference (PF2 is the main reason I posted) and let others have fun with it. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[dreicunan]

Dreicunan you accuse me of being obtuse yet have ignored my contrary example. Both of these quotes appear in the same section on cyber-knight OCC abiltiies on RUE 64 Please respond to them both:

The Cyber-Knight can create virtually any single piece Psi-weapon (no projectile weapons or weaposn with moving parts, such as ball and chain, bow and arrow, gun, etc., and Psi-weapons can not be thrown).
..
All psi-weapons are energy-based, summoned and shaped by each particular Cyber-Knight.

If "psi-weapons can not be thrown" (PWCNBT) applies to the super psionic Psi-Sword then "all psi-weapons are .. summoned and shaped by each particular Cyber-Knight" (APWASASBEPC) must also apply to the super psionic Psi-Sword.

This means that only even when a Mind Melter uses the power, it is a Cyber-Knight who summons the sword.

Does this make any sense to you?

Yeah, I'm accusing you of being of obtuse because you are, possibly deliberately so. If you are being deliberately obtuse, do a better job of it and claim that every time a Mind Melter uses one EACH particular Cyber-Knight summons and shapes the sword.

It isn't actually a contrary example, and you know that, but since you know that you are incapable of producing any affirmative evidence that the ISP paying powers can actually be thrown when they don't say so, you seem to have doubled down on it.

Besides, the psi-power says that "Like the Cyber-Knight, the Mind Melter can change the shape and even the color of the Psi-sword to fit his current mood, but unlike the Knight, he can do so from day one." Where are the guidelines for doing that given? p. 64 under the Cyber-Knight. Since we are told that the Mind Melter can do this like the Cyber-Knight, and we are then given the difference between the two (the Mind Melter can do so from day one), then the most logical reading is that the rest is not different. Ergo, once again, psi-weapons can't be thrown (unless the specific power mentions it as an exception).

Powers do what they say that they do, not what they don't say that they do.

[Axelmania]

We're also told that you can't give the psi-sword away.
This helps support the range of Self as the extent of the range.
If you could still keep the psi-sword created when throwing it,
you should be able to also just hand it to someone else.

This would be like arguing that because I cannot lend my particle beam to another character that I can't shoot them with the particle beam. Huge difference between allowing others to harness your energy and being able to project it harmfully at them.

Dreicunan you accuse me of being obtuse yet have ignored my contrary example. Both of these quotes appear in the same section on cyber-knight OCC abiltiies on RUE 64 Please respond to them both:

The Cyber-Knight can create virtually any single piece Psi-weapon (no projectile weapons or weaposn with moving parts, such as ball and chain, bow and arrow, gun, etc., and Psi-weapons can not be thrown).
..
All psi-weapons are energy-based, summoned and shaped by each particular Cyber-Knight.

If "psi-weapons can not be thrown" (PWCNBT) applies to the super psionic Psi-Sword then "all psi-weapons are .. summoned and shaped by each particular Cyber-Knight" (APWASASBEPC) must also apply to the super psionic Psi-Sword.

This means that only even when a Mind Melter uses the power, it is a Cyber-Knight who summons the sword.

Does this make any sense to you?

Yeah, I'm accusing you of being of obtuse because you are, possibly deliberately so.
If you are being deliberately obtuse, do a better job of it and claim that every time a Mind Melter uses one EACH particular Cyber-Knight summons and shapes the sword.

I am not saying I believe your argument. I am showing where your reasoning leads. If you agree with me that your reasoning is flawed (the "all psi-weapons" statement does NOT apply to Super Psi) then your premise (that the "psi weapons" statement applies to super psi) is kaput.

It isn't actually a contrary example, and you know that,

I know it is a contrary example. It disproves your reasoning. I've shown through "PSI WEAPONS STATEMENT B" being absurd if it applies to Super Psi, that "PSI WEAPONS STATEMENT A" should not be applied to Super Psi either.

If you apply STATEMENT A to Super Psi but not STATEMENT B, then you are working a double standard.

you are incapable of producing any affirmative evidence that the ISP paying powers can actually be thrown when they don't say so, you seem to have doubled down on it.

The proof is that you can throw swords, we have rules for throwing swords. Psi-Swords are swords.

It's doubtful there's anything explicitly saying you can throw vibro-sabers. We know you can because sabers are swords.

Besides, the psi-power says that
"Like the Cyber-Knight, the Mind Melter can change the shape and even the color of the Psi-sword to fit his current mood, but unlike the Knight, he can do so from day one."
Where are the guidelines for doing that given?
p. 64 under the Cyber-Knight.

Compare RMB 126 and RUE 381.

It originally said:

Unlike the cyber-knight, the Mind Melter can change the shape and even the color of the sword to fit his current mood.

All they did was remove "Un" and add "Unlike the knight he can do so from day 1". This did not change how the power works. They were just acknowledging the power boost cyber-knights got.

The SuperPSI did not require any additional text to guide how you altered the sword before, and it still does not require it.

The SuperPSI does not use the Cyber-Knight Psi-sword rules for shape changing.

Since we are told that the Mind Melter can do this like the Cyber-Knight,

You are misreading this. It is simply acknowledging that both are able to "change the shape and even the color".

This does not mean they use the same rules for doing so.

I can say "like Cosmo-Knights, Gargoyles can fly". This would not mean that Gargoyles suddenly have wingless mach speed flight.

we are then given the difference between the two (the Mind Melter can do so from day one)

That is A difference, not THE difference. It's pretty awful wording too since Melters can only get the power at 3rd, "day 1" is basically "when you get the power".

then the most logical reading is that the rest is not different. Ergo, once again, psi-weapons can't be thrown (unless the specific power mentions it as an exception).

The inability of cyber-knights to throw their psi-weapons has nothing to do with how they can reshape them.

Mind Melters also do not use Cyber-Knight reshaping rules, because the power could do this even before Cyber-Knights had them, so it obviously worked independently of it.

Powers do what they say that they do, not what they don't say that they do.

Psi-Sword creates a sword.

The ability to throw swords is not a function of the SuperPSI, it is the function of having an arm.

This is a function prohibited via the Cyber-Knight O.C.C. ability, not by the separate Super-Psi (or Amaki Duelist OCC power, or Psi-Tomahawks, etc)

[Prysus]

We're also told that you can't give the psi-sword away. This helps support the range of Self as the extent of the range. If you could still keep the psi-sword created when throwing it, you should be able to also just hand it to someone else.

This would be like arguing that because I cannot lend my particle beam to another character that I can't shoot them with the particle beam. Huge difference between allowing others to harness your energy and being able to project it harmfully at them.

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, let's just see where we disagree.

Do you think Swords and Particle Beams are the same type of weapon?
I'm thinking not, which makes them horrible for comparison. One is a melee weapon specifically "not designed for throwing," while the other is a projectile weapon specifically designed for range. There's quite a few other differences as well. I'm not sure where you're getting that one is a good example of the other. If you do think they're the same type of weapon, I'll be curious to know why.

Do you think using an item for something it's specifically NOT designed for is the same thing as using something an item is specifically designed for?
As stated above, swords are specifically (per Palladium, in the W.P.) "not designed for being thrown." Particle Beam weapons are specifically designed for firing at an enemy. If you don't think they're the same, then you probably shouldn't try to use them like they are. If you do think two different uses are the same, I'll be curious to know why.

Do you think a range of Self and a range of a few hundred to thousand feet are the same?
Psi-Sword specifically has a range "Self" while particle beam weapons will have their range listed (and it's not "Self"). Psi-Swords also give zero indications that the range is anything other than Self. If you don't think the ranges are the same, then you probably shouldn't try to pretend they are. If you do think the ranges are the same, I'll be curious to know why.

Now, I'll post a few other issues. Saying throwing a sword is the same as firing a particle beam is two very different things. A closer comparison would be: "I cannot lend my particle beam to another character so I can't throw the particle beam at someone." This could be true, or it could be false. If the reason you can't lend it to someone is something like a grip has a biometric scanner or something like that, then you can probably throw it. In this case, I'd say it's more like a Forearm Particle Beam of the 'Borg. Just because you can still use it for its intended purpose does NOT mean you can throw it.

Of course, it doesn't state why others can't use a Psi-Sword. However, if others are unable to wield it and the weapon can be thrown, we then have situations like throwing the Psi-Sword and it then becomes the equivalent of a Sword in the Stone. If the sword becomes lodged into an opponent's leg, it becomes literally impossible for anyone else other than the one who created it to ever pull it out. Otherwise, if someone else could wield the weapon to pull it out, then they'd just as easily be able to wield it to hit someone with it. Since that's not even hinted at in the power description, I'm inclined to believe that's NOT what Palladium secretly intended.

For the record, my stance is: "If the range is Self, and the description specifically states you can't give the item to others, then you can't throw the item to others. First, it ends the range of Self. Second, Swords are not designed to be thrown (per Palladium), and the Psi-Sword did not discuss something that it was NOT designed for. Third, if you can't release control and give it to another (by simply handing it to them), then you can't release control and give it to another (by suddenly throwing it to another and possibly letting their body hold it)."

Okay, I got work and have to leave. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Has anyone checked the official Q&As in the rifters for the answer for this?

They are listed by issue in the Rifter Index.

Got a con this weekend so I can't do it.

[dreicunan]

Compare RMB 126 and RUE 381.

It originally said:
Unlike the cyber-knight, the Mind Melter can change the shape and even the color of the sword to fit his current mood.

All they did was remove "Un" and add "Unlike the knight he can do so from day 1". This did not change how the power works. They were just acknowledging the power boost cyber-knights got.

The SuperPSI did not require any additional text to guide how you altered the sword before, and it still does not require it.

The SuperPSI does not use the Cyber-Knight Psi-sword rules for shape changing.

So your argument is that "unlike" means "like"?



Even more hilariously, you are arguing that changing the text doesn't change the text. It most certainly does change it.

The proof is that you can throw swords, we have rules for throwing swords. Psi-Swords are swords.

It's doubtful there's anything explicitly saying you can throw vibro-sabers. We know you can because sabers are swords.

Psi-sword does not actually create a sword. Psi-sword creates an a bunch of energy shaped like a sword (at first level for cyber-knights, it is just a shaft of light). I know that I can throw a vibro-saber because it is a physical object that conforms to normal laws of (Rifts) physics. The psi-sword/psi-weapon is not.

But don't just take my word for it! "Likewise, the Cyber-Knight is so skilled and precise that he can make the glowing energy weapon look almost as tightly cast and shaped as if he were wielding a real one made of cold steel." - p. 64 RUE "as if he were wielding a real one" only makes sense to say if the psi-sword is not a real sword. (Incidentally, there is the final nail in the coffin for your attempts to argue that a Cyber-Knight's psi-sword could be used with Sword Chi.)

"The sword appears out of thin air, as a shimmering blade of energy that resembles a glowing sword." - p. 181 RUE. The super-psi power is also just a blade of energy and is not an actual, physical sword.

Since it is not a real sword, but just an energy conglomeration, you can't claim either the rules for swords or logical application of how physics works as justification for throwing it. There is no reason to believe that the weapon can be thrown, and plenty of evidence that it can not be thrown. The logical conclusion is that you can't throw a psi-weapon unless a power says that it can be thrown. Powers do what they say that they do, not what they don't say that they can do!

[Axelmania]

Do you think Swords and Particle Beams are the same type of weapon?

I didn't say they were the same type, I'm picking a random example of another weapon to show that there is a difference between wielding a weapon and being harmable by it.

Rune Weapons and Astral Projectors might be a better example. Intangibles being vulnerable to rune weapons doesn't mean intangibles can pick them up and hit you with them.

Do you think using an item for something it's specifically NOT designed for is the same thing as using something an item is specifically designed for?

I'm not sure why you are bolding these straw man arguments.

Wielding a weapon, whether for a primary or alternative purpose, is wielding a weapon.

Do you think a range of Self and a range of a few hundred to thousand feet are the same?

You follow these bold lies with "where we disagree", and you shift the goalposts to obvious absurd ends.

Where these are the same is that they are starting ranges. The range for abilities is the range for initiating them unless we are told it is also the range for maintaining them.

Unless you want to require that ongoing touch is required to maintain a Mind Bond / Mentally Possess Others.

If you want to go down that road, it will be fun.

Psi-Swords also give zero indications that the range is anything other than Self.

What indication is there that Mind Bond and Mentally Possess others is anything other than touch?

What is your point? Address the examples you have ignored.

If you don't think the ranges are the same, then you probably shouldn't try to pretend they are. If you do think the ranges are the same, I'll be curious to know why.

The range of particle beams had nothing to do with it, that had to do with lending weapons to friends vs being harmed by them.

Prysus this is what you argued:

If you could still keep the psi-sword created when throwing it,
you should be able to also just hand it to someone else.

Your argument is that if my attack can hurt others, others can wield my attack.

Darkblades can harm intangible beings and Astral Slayer Artifacts can harm astral beings. Do you think either of these beings could actually wield physical objects without turning them astral or intangible? This proves your argument doesn't work.

Now, I'll post a few other issues. Saying throwing a sword is the same as firing a particle beam is two very different things.

Yet there is a similarity: I could shoot someone with a particle beam and harm them, but they may not necessarily be able to fire my gun if I have it Attuned to just myself.

A closer comparison would be: "I cannot lend my particle beam to another character so I can't throw the particle beam at someone."

Beams are shot, not thrown. No idea what you're ranting about here.

I'd say it's more like a Forearm Particle Beam of the 'Borg. Just because you can still use it for its intended purpose does NOT mean you can throw it.

You can throw it if you detach it, or throw whatever it is attached to. That applies to psi-swords too, if they are attached to anything. The only example that comes to mind is an Amaki booster.

Of course, it doesn't state why others can't use a Psi-Sword. However, if others are unable to wield it and the weapon can be thrown, we then have situations like throwing the Psi-Sword and it then becomes the equivalent of a Sword in the Stone. If the sword becomes lodged into an opponent's leg, it becomes literally impossible for anyone else other than the one who created it to ever pull it out.

The answer is simply that psi-swords don't get stuck in legs. Conveniently, Palladium doesn't have rules for weapons getting stuck in people.

Your dilemma of a stuck sword would also exist if a Cyber-Knight stabbed a leg without letting go of the sword.

Otherwise, if someone else could wield the weapon to pull it out, then they'd just as easily be able to wield it to hit someone with it. Since that's not even hinted at in the power description, I'm inclined to believe that's NOT what Palladium secretly intended.

You're operating under the assumption psi-swords can get stuck in legs, or that this would have any kind of deleterious effect at all other than the initial damage.

These are energy weapons. Are you worried about lasers getting stuck in legs and people being unable to pull them out?

For the record, my stance is: "If the range is Self, and the description specifically states you can't give the item to others, then you can't throw the item to others. First, it ends the range of Self.

Interesting house rule. Do you hold a double standard that "self is always self" but "touch is only initially touch" ?

Second, Swords are not designed to be thrown (per Palladium),
and the Psi-Sword did not discuss something that it was NOT designed for.

If the point you are trying to make is "things cannot be used for purposes they were not designed for", you are wrong, because swords can be thrown. It is known.

Third, if you can't release control and give it to another (by simply handing it to them), then you can't release control and give it to another (by suddenly throwing it to another and possibly letting their body hold it).

You're arguing a strawman here, as I never argued that other people's bodies can "hold" a psi-sword.

If you are concerned about this, take it up with Siembieda for letting Thorpe use psi-weapons as climbing tools, I guess?