The Next War?

[Sohisohi]

Pretty much what the title states, what CS-Tolkeen(ish) war would you like to see
and/or campaign ideas for GMs who'd like to start a faction war.
I'd like to see a Splugorths' Atlantis-Phoenix Empire War.
The books more-or-less write the conflict as is:

The Splugorth (SA) don't want to attack the Phoenix Empire (PE) because of the four horsemen. Welp, once that conflict is over there doesn't seem to be any reason not to attack. Furthermore, optional content had the leader of that faction wandering the wilderness in search of heroes/mercs to kill. So you have a leaderless faction who's "small" arms supplier is about to declare war on them. Overall, I find it an interesting conflict. Once it starts, the PE will be racing for a new armorer and armament supplier. They likely get them from the Gargoyles of Europe, but who knows, maybe New Camelot might send supplies just to throw fuel on this supernatural fire. Overall, it seems like a clear SA victory after an invasion from the east (Red Sea) with a smaller strike force in the north (Mediterranean) and an (optional) even smaller strike force moving along western riverways. After that the leader, being a powerful Necromancer, get enraged by the betrayal and leads a pretty sizable undead army against a now defensive/entrenched SA. The aftermath is something I haven't put much thought into, perhaps the number of undead gets doubled or even tripled. Ties between the SA and the Gargoyles of Europe become ever-so more slightly strained.

Regardless, it wouldn't been be all that dated of a campaign. The Bizantium and Rifter78 books have already revised Necromancy, while the soon Magic 2 book will either add to or compile said content. It also puts the new SoAtlantis book (and the older WB2) to some actual good use. That's not even mentioning the countless Rifters and Dead Reign updates that will help flesh-out the zombie hoards near the second half of the conflict.

Another Idea:
Natives-Natives
Similar to the Beaver Wars and the Horse Warfare of the West-Midwest, two factions of native tribesmen just start going at it. I've yet to think of an good reason for them doing so, though perhaps one group migrates into/near anothers territory. Or, ideally, leave them where they are. The native factions are so far apart that for them to actually fight requires them to effectively meet/cross into the territory of other factions. You might even have the CS or FoM back native groups so long as they also raid towns belonging to major factions along the way.

*Anyway, what do you guys got?

[Eagle]

No more wars. I'd like them to flesh out more of the world. Do a book on Chi-Town. Do a book on India. Do another book on Africa. Do Antarctica. Revisit some earlier places and update them. But please no more multi-book wars.

[Sohisohi]

No more wars. I'd like them to flesh out more of the world. Do a book on Chi-Town. Do a book on India. Do another book on Africa. Do Antarctica. Revisit some earlier places and update them. But please no more multi-book wars.

I believe there is a novel regarding chi-town, but I've never looked it over. Still, for the Phoenix-Atlantis war I'd recommend 2-3 books. Though you could likely jam-pack it all into a single copy if you simply reference spells/zombies/content from other books as opposed to reprinting them. You'd probably fit the conflict into an Africa 2 book like the four horsemen fit into WB4Africa. EDIT* I'm also of the opinion that there are too many factions in Rifts and Palladium should knock a few off the map (especially in NA).

Keep in mind, this is also meant to give/post war campaign ideas in general.

[glitterboy2098]

i wouldn't mind a war metaplot. again. if it is handled a bit better than SOT was. but IMO we really need to settle the Demon invasions first. especially the ones in Europe (and frankly anywhere but north america)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Edit:
weird double post and this one had bad quoting.

See below

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Hokay, so, this is going to probably come off as overly critical but... ive got no other way to cover it.

Pretty much what the title states, what CS-Tolkeen(ish) war would you like to see
and/or campaign ideas for GMs who'd like to start a faction war.
I'd like to see a Splugorths' Atlantis-Phoenix Empire War.
The books more-or-less write the conflict as is:

Only if you completely misinterpret them from start to finish.

The Splugorth (SA) don't want to attack the Phoenix Empire (PE) because of the four horsemen.

This is entirely wrong. I went ahead and dug out WB4 and gave it a read-over to make sure i wasn't remembering it wrong, and i wasnt. Splynncryth doesn't want to attack The Phoenix Empire at all. Not for any reason. Theyre a huge export market for him and make him tons of profit, as well as an extremely valuable proxy in the Gargoyle-Empire VS Triax war, and a massive source of fresh slave stock.

The book clearly states Splynncryth doesn't want to attack The Four Horsemen directly, because he doesn't want them to come hunting him later if he openly opposes them on earth. It has literally nothing to do with the Phoenix Empire at all.

Welp, once that conflict is over there doesn't seem to be any reason not to attack.

Sure there is. [i]Because he never wanted to attack them at all. [/i] There isn't even a vague intimation of that in the books. In fact, WB2 (Atlantis) clearly states Splynncryth has no intention of taking over any more large swathes of Rifts Earth because he knows he'd be in an all-out war if he did, and he's using the influence of the Splugorth, and himself in particular, to enforce a sort of "no one power gets to control all of Rifts Earth, we all agree to take a piece and leave each other alone" sort of stalemate that pretty much everyone except Hades and Dyvaal have signed on to. This is reinforced again in CB2 (Pantheons) when its mentioned under Zeus' description that he'd love to clear the Splugorth out, but cant, as A) the Olympians, despite being one of the strongest of the Pantheons and having dozens of worlds (or more) under their direct rule in other Dimensions, have no chance in hell of beating Splynncryth, and are afraid of his reprisals if they try and B) they know that everyone else who is a Megaversal player wont stand for them trying to grab off Earth, just as Splynncryth planned.

Furthermore, optional content had the leader of that faction wandering the wilderness in search of heroes/mercs to kill.

Uhh... wut? I just read that, and all he did was put out large bounties on "Heroes".

So you have a leaderless faction who's "small" arms supplier is about to declare war on them.

Except they aren't. At all. As i said, the book makes it clear that Splynncryth enjoys his relationship with the Phoenix Empire immensely, finds it invigorating and interesting, and it is hugely beneficial to him as a proxy (Rama-Set is so crazy Splynncryth can pretty much make him think any given idea is actually his own), market for goods, and sales-proxy to the Gargoyle Empire and other monstrous nations in the Mid-east. In addition, WB4 clearly states that Splynncryth likes the Phoenix Empire as it is (whole) because it makes it MUCH easier to keep an eye on all the weirdo creepy death cults and insane nutjobs.

Overall, I find it an interesting conflict.

Since you invented it out of whole cloth and not out of anything that is actually canon, that isn't terribly surprising.

However, ill go ahead with your assumptions to try to debunk the next part.

Once it starts, the PE will be racing for a new armorer and armament supplier.

Why? They have their own factories. They paid Splynncryth to build them.

They likely get them from the Gargoyles of Europe, but who knows,

You've got this backwards... the Gargoyles Empire is getting supplies from the Phoenix Empire. They're Splynncryths proxy supplier. The Gargoyles cant manufacture anything. They have no infrastructure.

maybe New Camelot might send supplies just to throw fuel on this supernatural fire.

lolno. Myyrlyn isn't about to ruin New Camelot's shiny squeaky-clean image. Not that he has anything to send.. again, New Camelot has no infrastructure to make anything high-tech. They get almost everything tech related they have from Triax and the NGR.

Overall, it seems like a clear SA victory after an invasion from the east (Red Sea) with a smaller strike force in the north (Mediterranean) and an (optional) even smaller strike force moving along western riverways. After that the leader, being a powerful Necromancer, get enraged by the betrayal and leads a pretty sizable undead army against a now defensive/entrenched SA. The aftermath is something I haven't put much thought into, perhaps the number of undead gets doubled or even tripled. Ties between the SA and the Gargoyles of Europe become ever-so more slightly strained.

... you seem to have absolutely no grasp of how ungodly powerful Splynncryth is compared to literally every other player on Rifts Earth. If he suddenly went insane and decided "you know, screw this carefully laid plan ive been pushing for the better part of two centuries to make sure i dont have to have a constant war on my hands impacting my profits, im taking over!" ...

Rifts Earth is conquered in weeks. The entire planet. Splynncryth is a somewhat rare bird in the Splugorth community in that he's not particularly interested in vasts swaths of real-estate (like, say, his counterparts in the Three Galaxies which have several hundred planets each, except for the maverick Klynncryth in Center who is basically modeling himself after Splynncryth)...

But he still controls three entire planets full of Kydians and Kittanni.

Kydians breed in literal litters and mature in 14 years. He has tens of billions of them to throw at any given problems, and literally trillions more if he goes to the other Splugorth and gets them involved.

He could put a few billion troops on Earth in a matter of days to weeks. The entire planet is his any time he feels like taking it. Except he doesn't want the whole thing, (which is clearly stated in WB2) because he knows that if he did take the whole thing, he'd then be in an endless war to keep the whole planet, draining resources and impacting profits, because the other Megaversal powers aren't going to stand for him having the whole planet (probably/perhaps even other Splugorth who wouldnt like Splynncryth having the whole planet) He likes what he has - a nice, huge, secluded continent all to himself where he can relax, and reap the benefits of being on Rifts Earth (access to literally the entire Megaverse) without having to fight all the time to keep it. And the profits. Oh, does he love his profits.

Regardless, it wouldn't been be all that dated of a campaign. The Bizantium

Which is meaningless since it isn't a Rifts book and isn't canon for Rifts in any way, shape or form.

and Rifter78 books have already revised Necromancy,

Not having a copy of any Rifter past about... 50, i have no idea if this is "official source material" (which is sorta rare) or the standard Rifter "optional" stuff, which would mean its even less meaningless than the Byzantium book because its canon for literally nothing. If it's official source material for Rifts, sweet. If not, might as well be toilet paper.

If it IS canon for Rifts, it better be one giant, massive upgrade to Necromancy. Because the overage Overlord could cut down most of the raise-able undead with one hand tied behind his back. And Splynncryth has billions of those guys.

while the soon Magic 2 book will either add to or compile said content. It also puts the new SoAtlantis book (and the older WB2) to some actual good use. That's not even mentioning the countless Rifters and Dead Reign updates that will help flesh-out the zombie hoards near the second half of the conflict.

Are they doing another Book of Magic for Rifts? Or is it for Palladium Fantasy? I admit to not following the book release schedule, particularly for non-Rifts games. Again, if its PF .... big whoop. (and, again, better be some AMAZING Necromancy there, to stand up to even basic Overlords. All of whom have magic available to them. Every. Single. One.)

Really, this entire exercise was mostly pointless because your base premise (that Splynncryth for some reason wants to attack the Phoenix Empire, which is provably false just by reading WB2 and WB4 - ill have to check and see if Aftermath mentions anything) is entirely incorrect.

But even if he DID want to potentially spark a Megaversal conflict by biting off more large chunks of the planet, it wouldn't be a difficult task for him.

As written as far back as WB2, Splynncryth is pretty much unbeatable short of your GM allowing you to somehow gain access to him personally with some nukes in a backpack. Realistically, as far as canon is concerned, he can't be beat on Rifts Earth (now, in other arenas - sure. He's "only" got 3 measly planets outside of Atlantis (with a few trillion subjects between them)... but other Splugorth have domains far larger in the Three Galaxies, and assuredly elsewhere.

But on Rifts Earth? No one can touch him. He could steamroll over every other force on the planet (other than perhaps China... those demon provinces are a little weird, but he could certainly contain them easily enough) in days.

Another Idea:
Natives-Natives
Similar to the Beaver Wars and the Horse Warfare of the West-Midwest, two factions of native tribesmen just start going at it. I've yet to think of an good reason for them doing so, though perhaps one group migrates into/near anothers territory. Or, ideally, leave them where they are. The native factions are so far apart that for them to actually fight requires them to effectively meet/cross into the territory of other factions. You might even have the CS or FoM back native groups so long as they also raid towns belonging to major factions along the way.

*Anyway, what do you guys got?

[/quote][/quote]

Count me firmly in the "lets step back from the world-ending meta-plots for a while" crowd.

Not only are there few enough of them left, they dont really add a lot of excitement the way Kevin writes them. In fact, the Minion War (on Rifts Earth, at least - other dimensions, particularly the Three Galaxies (Dimensional Outbreak), were MUCH better written and more plausible) doesn't even make sense. For the very same reason that Splynncryth wont take over the whole planet (other Dimensional powers wont stand for it) - neither would he stand for Hades and Dyvaal trying to take the whole thing.

I went through and added up the populations of Hades and Dyvaal... and even multiplying all the population numbers by a generous 10 (thereby making the assumption that the populations listed for the cities represented only 10% of the population of that province of Dyvall/Hades) .... Splynncryth could literally just invade both dimensions and wipe them out, trading Kydians at a loss (even though Overlords are substantially stronger than ALL of the lesser demons and a bunch of the regular/non-greater ones on an individual basis) ratio of 2 Overlords for every demon killed..

And wipe them out without breaking a sweat. Just bury them under Kydian corpses, and kill them all deader than doornails. And that's just Splynncryth. With his measly three planets. Poof, no more Hades demons, no more Dyvaalian Deevils. The only reason that Dimensional Outbreak works is because of the Demon Planets and the fact that both Hades and Dyvaal have been founding cults of followers and have entire planets of (millions of) mortals to fight for them, so the lack of real impressive numbers of actual demons isn't as big of an issue.

The numbers presented in Hades, Dyvaal, and Megaverse in Flames dont even make the Minion War a credible threat to Rifts Earth's native powers really (for Megaverse in Flames, im talking about the numbers presented as the initial invasion forces, none of which number more than 30-50,000 except for the (long held) Deevil stronghold in Cuba.

Just leave the massive stuff alone for a while. It's not really all that compelling.

[jtjr26]

I don't think there needs to be another war for the moment. I would love for other parts of the world to be fleshed out some more. More info on Africa, Scandinavia, California and other placed previous untouched. Personally I would not mind the CS to have some consequences coming out of the Minion Wars. Nothing major but maybe one of the fortress cities was partially destroyed and the CS resources are stretched so far that a focus has to be placed more on post war rebuilding and diplomacy rather than outright military aggression. Then maybe progress the timeline some with a jump of 5-10 years and then start laying threads for some large meta plot. To that end instead of releasing new source or world books have a few state of the World books that give us some updated world news. Anyway just a few thoughts. Cheers.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I agree with the "No more big wars" sentiment. Logistically, the feasibility of another one is probably rather slim.

I'd rather see the last bit of North America fleshed out (everything west of the Rockies, including the mountain range itself, and Alaska), as well as an actual Phoenix Empire book. Its been a while since I looked at WB4, but wasn't the Empire something like 6 pages in there? There's also plenty that hasn't been covered yet, or has gotten only a brief description in another book.

I'm not one of those that hates on the SoT and Minion War but I think it's time for a break. Let GM's handle their own plots, and give them more resources to work with.

[Warshield73]

I know I'm in the minority but I loved the SoT. Not so much the execution of the war, although that was good enough, but I loved the build up. I ran a Rifts group 4 or 5 players playing the same characters on and off for 20 years and the build up to that war dominated the first decade at least without ever participating in any of its battles. Arms deals, retribution squads, refugees it was nonstop fun.

Unfortunately I don't get to GM with a regular group anymore but Minion War looks like a lot of fun too, especially in the Three Galaxies.

However, I do agree with the no more big wars. I want more of the small things like the Mechanoids, Four Horsemen, Juicer Uprising, etc.

[Axelmania]

World books which re-acknowledge Pantheons and say to consult it for god stats and then just setting-build for places like India (as Eagle suggests) or other places (Greece? Rome? Finland? Persia?) would be great. A bunch of cities, shops, adventure ideas, NPCs, etc.