Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

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Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by (SHIFTY) »

Hey guys. I have a player in my campaign that wants to change OCC from Tattoo man (he is a free slave) to another OCC. Given the restrictions with tattoo magic and other magic. What are some other OCC change ideas for this player? Thanks!
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Mack »

A Cyborg. (I'm pretty conservative when it comes to OCC changes.)

Changing OCC's, especially for a Tattoo Man slave, is pretty difficult. Psionic & magic classes are out, obviously. I'd say first he's going to have to start living and working as his new profession to learn the trade (this is prior to actually changing OCCs).

For example, suppose he wants to become a Sheriff or Sheriff Deputy. First he'll have to find a job as a lawman and begin learning about it. After enough time goes by, you could declare that he's now entered his "apprentice" phase. And then after enough time (xp) goes by, he becomes a level 1 Sheriff / Deputy. Alternatively, he could forever remain a Tattoo Man OCC and just live and work as a lawman (spending whatever new skills he earns on his new line of work.)

The hard part is determining how he stops advancing as a T-Man. If he continues to use his tattoos then it's hard to justify that he's become something else.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by The Beast »

Mack wrote:The hard part is determining how he stops advancing as a T-Man. If he continues to use his tattoos then it's hard to justify that he's become something else.


I suggest an xp penalty. If he uses any tattoos he gets no xp for that session. However I would also come up with a limited list on when tattoos could be used without penalty (fighting vampires for example). This penalty remains in effect until the new OCC surpasses the old one.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

(SHIFTY) wrote:Hey guys. I have a player in my campaign that wants to change OCC from Tattoo man (he is a free slave) to another OCC. Given the restrictions with tattoo magic and other magic. What are some other OCC change ideas for this player? Thanks!

Cyborg type OCCs.

The rules state if you have a certain number of magic tattoos that you'd be considered a T-man (or a class of them). To me that would preclude changing OCCs w/o finding a way to get the number of tattoos below the threshold. Which likely requires some type of Full Conversion Cyborg, though depending on where all the tattoos are placed a Partial conversion might also be possible. After all the only way to deactivate a tattoo is to remove it (and the associated body part) IINM.

Alternatively the character could apply their skills in a manner to allow them to take on the role of different OCCs.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Natasha »

(SHIFTY) wrote:Hey guys. I have a player in my campaign that wants to change OCC from Tattoo man (he is a free slave) to another OCC. Given the restrictions with tattoo magic and other magic. What are some other OCC change ideas for this player? Thanks!

Does the player have any ideas of what they'd like to switch to?

If not, why are they wanting a change? Maybe there's something else that needs to be changed. Maybe not.

Ultimately, I think it has to start with the player knowing what they want and then you can work it out.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by (SHIFTY) »

I think the player is just bored with the Tattoo man OCC and is using him more as a Men At Arms OCC than a magic based class. I was saying just better to roll up a new character. Thank you all for the replies!
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

(SHIFTY) wrote:I think the player is just bored with the Tattoo man OCC and is using him more as a Men At Arms OCC than a magic based class. I was saying just better to roll up a new character. Thank you all for the replies!

:twisted: Muhahahahahaha :twisted:
Kill the char off so the play gets to play someone else.....sort of. :evil:

Like have the char rifted to another setting.
or
have him captured
or
fake the char's death so the other chars (and all the players) think the char is dead.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by (SHIFTY) »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
(SHIFTY) wrote:I think the player is just bored with the Tattoo man OCC and is using him more as a Men At Arms OCC than a magic based class. I was saying just better to roll up a new character. Thank you all for the replies!

:twisted: Muhahahahahaha :twisted:
Kill the char off so the play gets to play someone else.....sort of. :evil:

Like have the char rifted to another setting.
or
have him captured
or
fake the char's death so the other chars (and all the players) think the char is dead.


Hmmmm......great idea! :lol:
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Library Ogre »

To the more general question:

I'd say a Tattoo man could assume OCCs like Headhunter, Cyborg, and most of the Scholar and Adventurer types... things that don't involve non-bionic body modification, or other kinds of magic. However, I'd also be reluctant to actually let them change OCCs... I'd be more inclined to have them learn any OCC abilities they specifically want, while continuing on as a Tattooed man.... if they want to become a Sheriff, well, there's little reason to change OCCs for a change in career.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by dreicunan »

Mark Hall wrote:To the more general question:

I'd say a Tattoo man could assume OCCs like Headhunter, Cyborg, and most of the Scholar and Adventurer types... things that don't involve non-bionic body modification, or other kinds of magic. However, I'd also be reluctant to actually let them change OCCs... I'd be more inclined to have them learn any OCC abilities they specifically want, while continuing on as a Tattooed man.... if they want to become a Sheriff, well, there's little reason to change OCCs for a change in career.

Well, given the names for many of the OCCs, it makes sense that a player would think that there is all the reason in the world to change OCCs with a change in career. After all, I don't recall seeing any officers with the "Coalition Grunt" OCC! So if you had a character who started as one but was recognized for talent and given a promotion (rare, but possible), I would probably have the character change OCCs to represent the additional training that would come with it.

I'd also point out that the very name "Occupation Character Class" implies that the the class matches the occupation of the character. The OCC system does a great job of representing people who pick a career and basically stick with it. It isn't so great for Renaisance Men types or those who do make big changes in their careers.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Eagle »

I'd probably just let him change to a new thing. The big advantage that Tattooed Men get when they go up in level is access to more tattoos. If the game has shifted so that the player isn't going to be able to access new tattoos, there's no reason to continue to level up as a Tattooed Man. Learn to hunt or to use a radio, switch classes and just be something else.

He's not going to be able to qualify for much that is better than a Tattooed Man. He's not going to become a Line Walker or a Mind Melter (he can't do other magic and he's got all the psionics he's going to get). He's already MDC so he can't become a Juicer or a Crazy. His power level is already pretty well set, so really you're just talking about skill selection and maybe a couple of fairly minor bonuses. I'd just let him switch.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by kaid »

Also you may want to check out the new secrets of atlantis book for the new atlantean nomad OCC. One of the branches for it is pretty close to a normal TMan so having undead slayer who wanted to broaden his or her horizons for some reason nomad may be a good option to go.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Axelmania »

Mack wrote:Psionic & magic classes are out, obviously.

If you play where the vast majority of the tattoos are on a single arm and then cut off the arm to reduce the total to 5 or less, I think these could be options.

Would that possible change them back to SDC beings who could now learn magic or use psionics?
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The problem with learning Psionics is that the changing class rules are conflic with themselves in this. There are published canon rules that say PCCs can't be changed to and nor can be changed from. There are some text in the CRF that sort of say that a char can change to a psychic occ. This is besides the point that the Core Changing class rules only talk about changing the class of OCCs. Not RCCs and not PCCs.

As for what canon rules I go with...
I stick with the changing class text in total as found in the PF2 books. In that PCCs [Psychic Character Classes] (CC's called psychic OCCs in RUE, and some mislabeled as RCCs in Rifts for style reasons) can not change their Class and others can not change their class to a PCC. I add that if the PCC char losses their psi powers, that they can change their class to something else.

With the publishing of the Half-Wizard in the MoM1 book, I might not be opposed to a psi char using that OCC as a guideline for how to structure their new class.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

(SHIFTY) wrote:I think the player is just bored with the Tattoo man OCC and is using him more as a Men At Arms OCC than a magic based class. I was saying just better to roll up a new character. Thank you all for the replies!


Well, it IS a “warrior” class. They arent exactly men of magic. Their powers may be magically based, but they are at their core, warriors.

If, by “acting more like a man at arms”, you mean hes using guns and the like... thats not out of character for a tatooed man. You dont expect him to just wade into gunfire until he can get into range to use his tatoos, do you? Like any magic user with a brain, hell use whatever weapons are appropriate to the situation. I wouldnt expect him to bring a flaming weapon to a gunfight, as it were.

In fact, T-Men really shine as hybrids, using their tatoos to augment their weaponry.

Ive always felt the OCC system was presented as unduly strict. Ive always seen classes as a collection of skills and game mechanics, nothing more. If you want to play a Ley Line Walker who is a professional soldier... do. Buy the skills required to represent that (better H2H, WPs, etc). If you want to play a Grunt who is a professional driver... do. Buy the pilot skills, and do.

If you want to be a Sherriff, be a Sherriff. (The Sheriff in Silverno isnt a Sherriff OCC, for example).

Even if he cant get new Tatoos, just continuing on as a T-man and taking new skills to match his new pursuits is probably best - he still gains levels, MDC, and his existing Tatoos gain more power. (That 75 MDC per level on Invulnerability is almost worth it alone. By the time youre ~7th level, you have the MDC of a tank - literally)

If hes uisng a lot of tech along with his tatoos... well, thats just smart.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Natasha »

A looooong time ago, the O.C.C. system made sense. They actually represented Occupational Character Classes.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:
Mack wrote:Psionic & magic classes are out, obviously.

If you play where the vast majority of the tattoos are on a single arm and then cut off the arm to reduce the total to 5 or less, I think these could be options.

Would that possible change them back to SDC beings who could now learn magic or use psionics?


Magic, possibly.

Psionics, no.

The first can be taught. The second can not.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Natasha »

I could see something like Latent Psychics being possible.
I would make all such decisions case-by-case. That said, I tend to let the regular group of players do anything they want because they're excellent role players.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Natasha wrote:I could see something like Latent Psychics being possible.
I would make all such decisions case-by-case. That said, I tend to let the regular group of players do anything they want because they're excellent role players.

That would have to be a part of the initial psionics roll (major/minor). In other words, a part of char creation.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The problem with learning Psionics is that the changing class rules are conflic with themselves in this. There are published canon rules that say PCCs can't be changed to and nor can be changed from.

Those only exist and pertain to specific PCCs in the Palladium Fantasy RPG 2nd Edition. They do not apply to PCCs in Nightbane or psychic OCCs in RUE.

Mack wrote:Magic, possibly.

Psionics, no.

The first can be taught. The second can not.

What's the source on this now?

Conversion Book allowed Wizards or Diabolists under third level to become Techno-Wizards. This did not require them to possess psionics and it didn't say anything about not getting TW psi.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The problem with learning Psionics is that the changing class rules are conflict with themselves in this. There are published canon rules that say PCCs can't be changed to and nor can be changed from.

Those only exist and pertain to specific PCCs in the Palladium Fantasy RPG 2nd Edition. They do not apply to PCCs in Nightbane or psychic OCCs in RUE.

And yet again you misquoted me by not quoting me "in full"
And the difference in interpretation of the canon text is a part of the conflicting rules I mentioned.

And you are right that the changing class rules do not apply to PCCs in the NB. This is because they can not be canonly used to change the class of chars in settings other then PF2 or RUE Rifts.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Axelmania »

I dunno, page 1 of Nightbane says "Compatible with the entire Palladium Books Megaverse", so canon supports rules-interchange.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Daniel Stoker »

Yeah except where it's not, just look at the classification of Psi-Powers in Nightbane compared to Rifts.


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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Mack »

Axelmania wrote:I dunno, page 1 of Nightbane says "Compatible with the entire Palladium Books Megaverse", so canon supports rules-interchange.

Compatible? Yes.

Seamless? No.
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by eliakon »

Psionic powers can not be learned...
...except of course when they can be learned.
Just like pretty much everything else in Palladium there is a general rule (that may or may not apply to any given case) and a horde of special edge cases where that rule doesn't apply.
Psionics are the poster child of this. Which is why every thread on if you can or can not change class into/out of a class with psionic abilities turns into a huge argument and then goes down in flames. Why you ask?
1) The rules for class changing are found in PF where you still have PCCs, but most of the other game lines have discounted PCCs as part of the canon.
2) This is complicated by trying to decide what is a PCC and what is not a PCC (for example Rifts used RCC for some psychic classes... but not others. And to complicate things further, some were actual RCCs where as others were P/OCCs
3] Don't forget that there are psychic classes that are trained to be psi/use their psi a certain way
4] Then there are the classes that are not PCCs but get psionic abilities and are trained (Techno-Wizard and Cyber-Knight for example).
5] Then you have issues like Rifts China which both defines the ISP Chi powers (which are trainable) as being BOTH Psychic abilities and as NOT Psychic abilities.
6] Then there are even more edge issues like Phase Powers, or Oni abilities that may or may not be psi
7] The conversion book introduces the complication of 'martial art psionics' that appear to be partly based on teaching...
8] Then you get into the presence of multi-class psychics in the canon
9] Then of course we have the problem of at least one example of a school for a psychic class
10] Then we compound the issue by the fact that because we have to go outside of a core line for rules on class changing anyway that it opens up the door to complications like the fact that psi in the various game lines tends to work slightly differently (Nightbane, PF1, BTS, BTS2, ATB, CE, and to a lesser extent HU all have unique rules on psi that run counter to the rules found in RMB/RUE/PF2. Not to mention the rules for converting things in the conversion book adds in even more layers of complication

I could go on but I think that I have made my point... which is that the issue is a murky mess with no clear, simple canon answer because for every answer there is at least one counter example...
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

eliakon wrote:Psionic powers can not be learned...
...except of course when they can be learned.
Just like pretty much everything else in Palladium there is a general rule (that may or may not apply to any given case) and a horde of special edge cases where that rule doesn't apply.


Agree here 100%. The "Megaversal" system is basically a cludge of edge-cases that prove the rule... sometimes, there are more edge-cases than there are things that actually follow the rule.

However, going to pick a few nits.

Ill start with the bolded above -

I dont think its ever said anywhere that specific Psionic powers or abilities can't be "learned" or trained into someone. The ability to use psionics, however, is a different matter. If you're already latently psychic, then you can be taught/learn to develop your powers in certain ways. But if you have no psychic ability, (at least insofar as we're talking about Rifts, as im not an expert on all the other games in the Megaverse, with N&SS and Heroes being about the extent of my knowledge outside of Rifts), no amount of "training" will give you psionics. (Though implants, drugs, or other external factors might).

Psionics are the poster child of this. Which is why every thread on if you can or can not change class into/out of a class with psionic abilities turns into a huge argument and then goes down in flames. Why you ask?
1) The rules for class changing are found in PF where you still have PCCs, but most of the other game lines have discounted PCCs as part of the canon.


I wasn't even aware thats where they came from. Changing classes has been something so infrequent in Palladium games for me that ive never even looked for hard and fast rules. Like, not even all the fingers on one hand ive seen it even talked about.

2) This is complicated by trying to decide what is a PCC and what is not a PCC (for example Rifts used RCC for some psychic classes... but not others. And to complicate things further, some were actual RCCs where as others were P/OCCs


Yup. RUE cleared that up a little - there's a statement in there, i believe, that clarified that Kev felt that making those psychic classes RCCs in older books was a mistake and that psychic classes that aren't specifically tied to a race should be OCCs, and all the former Psychic RCCs that are present in RUE are re-classified as OCCs, even Dog Boys, which is a giant mess, since Mutant Canine should be a Race, and the Psi-Hound should be an area of training (OCC) for that race or other canine races that can be Master Psychics - like the Conversion Book note that Wolfen could be the equivalent of a Dog Boy).

3] Don't forget that there are psychic classes that are trained to be psi/use their psi a certain way


Again, i dont recall ever seeing anything saying that someone who has latent psychic talent cant be trained to use it in a certain way. So i dont think this violates any of the "rules" really.

4] Then there are the classes that are not PCCs but get psionic abilities and are trained (Techno-Wizard and Cyber-Knight for example).


I think an argument can be made that anyone who takes TW was already psionically capable, not that they were "taught" to be psionic when they had zero psionic ability. It might not even require what the book calls "minor psionics" - just a super-low level of psionic activity that is developed during TW training into a small batch of powers. I can see something similar with Cyber Knight.

This isn't something you have to roll for because if you want to take one of these classes at character creation, it's assumed that your character met the criteria to be able to train for that class (like, you dont need to hit the lotto and roll "Master Psionics" on the random chart before you can make a Mind Melter, or Mystic, etc). This really only would become a problem (these unstated "anyone who could train to be a CK or TW had at the very least a very l ow level of psionic aptitude") if changing classes were something that was codified into the rules.

Now, im not saying this is 100% what it is, im just saying an argument can be made either way. It only breaks down in the "changing classes" issue, which... given that there are no hard-and-fast "changing classes" rules that are canon to Rifts... /shrug.

5] Then you have issues like Rifts China which both defines the ISP Chi powers (which are trainable) as being BOTH Psychic abilities and as NOT Psychic abilities.


Yeah, i haven't read those in a while. Im sure youre right.. but man were those books both boring and poorly written.

6] Then there are even more edge issues like Phase Powers, or Oni abilities that may or may not be psi


For Phase Powers i dont think there's an edge issue there. Rather like Mind Melter, if you want to learn to use phase powers (are there races other than Promethian and that dragon-humanoid race that can even learn them? Dont have the book sitting right here to recall) you have to already be a latent/master psychic-capable person, and then that is how you develop your psionics/powers.

7] The conversion book introduces the complication of 'martial art psionics' that appear to be partly based on teaching...


Again, i think we can go with "if you are capable of learning those abilities, you had some latent psychic power in the first place" as a cover here.... but i will say that those conversions always just bothered the crap out of me. The system could have been left entirely alone and worked just fine. Just use it as written in N&SS - it works. Doesn't screw up anything in Rifts.

8] Then you get into the presence of multi-class psychics in the canon


I'd agree, but i have a firm belief in the "NPCs do not have to obey the rules that PCs use" style of GMing. Just because an NPC can do it does not mean players can.

9] Then of course we have the problem of at least one example of a school for a psychic class


Again... if you aren't already latently psionic... then you cant attend the school. But if you are, the school can teach you to develop your powers in that way (OCC).

10] Then we compound the issue by the fact that because we have to go outside of a core line for rules on class changing anyway that it opens up the door to complications like the fact that psi in the various game lines tends to work slightly differently (Nightbane, PF1, BTS, BTS2, ATB, CE, and to a lesser extent HU all have unique rules on psi that run counter to the rules found in RMB/RUE/PF2. Not to mention the rules for converting things in the conversion book adds in even more layers of complication

I could go on but I think that I have made my point... which is that the issue is a murky mess with no clear, simple canon answer because for every answer there is at least one counter example...
its a flock of nothing but black swans :P


Agree with the overall sentiment, just not all of the specific points.
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eliakon
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Re: Tattoo man wanting to change OCC.

Unread post by eliakon »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
eliakon wrote:Psionic powers can not be learned...
...except of course when they can be learned.
Just like pretty much everything else in Palladium there is a general rule (that may or may not apply to any given case) and a horde of special edge cases where that rule doesn't apply.


Agree here 100%. The "Megaversal" system is basically a cludge of edge-cases that prove the rule... sometimes, there are more edge-cases than there are things that actually follow the rule.

However, going to pick a few nits.

Ill start with the bolded above -

I dont think its ever said anywhere that specific Psionic powers or abilities can't be "learned" or trained into someone. The ability to use psionics, however, is a different matter. If you're already latently psychic, then you can be taught/learn to develop your powers in certain ways. But if you have no psychic ability, (at least insofar as we're talking about Rifts, as im not an expert on all the other games in the Megaverse, with N&SS and Heroes being about the extent of my knowledge outside of Rifts), no amount of "training" will give you psionics. (Though implants, drugs, or other external factors might).

See Below

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Psionics are the poster child of this. Which is why every thread on if you can or can not change class into/out of a class with psionic abilities turns into a huge argument and then goes down in flames. Why you ask?
1) The rules for class changing are found in PF where you still have PCCs, but most of the other game lines have discounted PCCs as part of the canon.


I wasn't even aware thats where they came from. Changing classes has been something so infrequent in Palladium games for me that ive never even looked for hard and fast rules. Like, not even all the fingers on one hand ive seen it even talked about.

Yerp, they are from Adventures on the High Seas.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
3] Don't forget that there are psychic classes that are trained to be psi/use their psi a certain way


Again, i dont recall ever seeing anything saying that someone who has latent psychic talent cant be trained to use it in a certain way. So i dont think this violates any of the "rules" really.

Again this goes back to the fact that there is no support for this in the psi rules as written.
There is NO support in the canon for being able to train up psi talents or to train people to use them in certain ways.
That is the entire premise behind the whole 'wild talents' issue and the random and intuitive nature of psionic classes...
but then we get Psi-Warriors, and Cyber-Knights and Duelists and the like.
In fact the only mention of training programs says that the CS program has only a moderate success rate in trying to train psi's to develop in a certain way, let alone develop in highly specific ones!

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
4] Then there are the classes that are not PCCs but get psionic abilities and are trained (Techno-Wizard and Cyber-Knight for example).


I think an argument can be made that anyone who takes TW was already psionically capable, not that they were "taught" to be psionic when they had zero psionic ability. It might not even require what the book calls "minor psionics" - just a super-low level of psionic activity that is developed during TW training into a small batch of powers. I can see something similar with Cyber Knight.

This isn't something you have to roll for because if you want to take one of these classes at character creation, it's assumed that your character met the criteria to be able to train for that class (like, you dont need to hit the lotto and roll "Master Psionics" on the random chart before you can make a Mind Melter, or Mystic, etc). This really only would become a problem (these unstated "anyone who could train to be a CK or TW had at the very least a very l ow level of psionic aptitude") if changing classes were something that was codified into the rules.

Now, im not saying this is 100% what it is, im just saying an argument can be made either way. It only breaks down in the "changing classes" issue, which... given that there are no hard-and-fast "changing classes" rules that are canon to Rifts... /shrug.

We can demonstrably prove this is not true for at least the Cyber Knight since Cyber Knights can come from races that have NO psionic potential... and in the process of their training they are trained to gain psionics. As such they can not be a latent since their race has no latency to begin with!
TWs have a similar issue in that there are TWs of races with no other normal Psionic potential.

Also See Below

6] Then there are even more edge issues like Phase Powers, or Oni abilities that may or may not be psi


For Phase Powers i dont think there's an edge issue there. Rather like Mind Melter, if you want to learn to use phase powers (are there races other than Promethian and that dragon-humanoid race that can even learn them? Dont have the book sitting right here to recall) you have to already be a latent/master psychic-capable person, and then that is how you develop your psionics/powers. [/quote]
Except that is not how the canon works
In canon anyone in a number of races can train in the needed OOC to learn how to become a Phase Adept. There is no perquisite for psychic-capability.

Also See Below
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
7] The conversion book introduces the complication of 'martial art psionics' that appear to be partly based on teaching...


Again, i think we can go with "if you are capable of learning those abilities, you had some latent psychic power in the first place" as a cover here.... but i will say that those conversions always just bothered the crap out of me. The system could have been left entirely alone and worked just fine. Just use it as written in N&SS - it works. Doesn't screw up anything in Rifts.

See Below

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
8] Then you get into the presence of multi-class psychics in the canon


I'd agree, but i have a firm belief in the "NPCs do not have to obey the rules that PCs use" style of GMing. Just because an NPC can do it does not mean players can.

I am not saying that PCs can do it.
I am saying that it can be done in canon. There are a HUGE number of things that are canon that are not there for PC use. The game rules are not there just for the purpose of determining what a PC can do after all...there are entire CLASSES that are NPC only for example. Therefore the question of if a specific action is rules legal does not hinge on if a PC can do it, but on only on if it is canon.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
9] Then of course we have the problem of at least one example of a school for a psychic class


Again... if you aren't already latently psionic... then you cant attend the school. But if you are, the school can teach you to develop your powers in that way (OCC).

See Below

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
10] Then we compound the issue by the fact that because we have to go outside of a core line for rules on class changing anyway that it opens up the door to complications like the fact that psi in the various game lines tends to work slightly differently (Nightbane, PF1, BTS, BTS2, ATB, CE, and to a lesser extent HU all have unique rules on psi that run counter to the rules found in RMB/RUE/PF2. Not to mention the rules for converting things in the conversion book adds in even more layers of complication

I could go on but I think that I have made my point... which is that the issue is a murky mess with no clear, simple canon answer because for every answer there is at least one counter example...
its a flock of nothing but black swans :P


Agree with the overall sentiment, just not all of the specific points.


(This is the See Below)
I was talking about in the written canon rules of the game, not in peoples modified house rules where they had instituted their own ideas to fix issues with the game. Once you impliment house rules that change the canon then of COURSE those changes will provide solutions to canon problems. That doesn't make those problems any less of a canon problem though.
Specifically... there is no such thing as a 'latent' psionic in canon. Simply adding in a new category of psychic who can only be discovered retroactively by training them doesnt fix the issue of canon. It simply hand waves the problems away in a specific game by saying that all the confilcts don't really exist because we are going to pretend that there isn't a conflict and that there is actually this unstated, unstatted, and undisclosed rule that allows for it.

EDIT: I may be in error, and there is some text about such latency somewhere. If so I will gladly withdraw all my previous statements and be the first to jump on the latent bandwagon... but I am not aware of any such, hence my statements.
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