Temporal Wizard Training Time?

[jtjr26]

I was reviewing the England book and specifically the amount of time it takes for someone to be a trained Temporal Wizard. Is the indentured servitude or even the length of training time required? I realize the source of temporal magic at least in the Rifts Earth context is the Temporal Raiders but assuming somewhere in the megaverse a teacher could be found and is willing to teach can temporal magic be taught in a traditional master apprentice relationship without the years of servitude? In my story/game the character in question is already a trained mage so they do not need to learn how to use magic per se, just how temporal magic works. Can this circumvent the training time normally required as per the book?

[Braden Campbell]

This would be a case of a wizard learning new spells... so, no period of servitude is required (but them temporal spells dont come cheap, so some kind of difficult trade should be involved).

[Shark_Force]

as i recall, ley line walkers and shifters can learn temporal magic without a class change... but first they must reach level 9. after that, just have to find a willing teacher, and have a lot of cash. if you use the rules where learning spells takes a while (i think the mysteries of magic book has it take something like 2 days per level of the spell), i would be inclined to have it take a bit longer for someone learning spells they aren't reasonably familiar with (so at least for the first few temporal magic spells you learn, before you've become familiar, i'd probably make it take a few extra days), but that would just be a house rule.

[Mlp7029]

I was reviewing the England book and specifically the amount of time it takes for someone to be a trained Temporal Wizard. Is the indentured servitude or even the length of training time required? I realize the source of temporal magic at least in the Rifts Earth context is the Temporal Raiders but assuming somewhere in the megaverse a teacher could be found and is willing to teach can temporal magic be taught in a traditional master apprentice relationship without the years of servitude? In my story/game the character in question is already a trained mage so they do not need to learn how to use magic per se, just how temporal magic works. Can this circumvent the training time normally required as per the book?

I think it certainly could if you believe someone can learn to cast magic in less than six years. Perhaps spell casting could be learned quicker but given that some spells of any level can be chosen an apprenticeship time equivalent to getting a Masters does not seem unreasonable. If you are looking for a mage class that does not have a specific apprenticeship time listed look at the Ley Line Rifter. Gets some temporal spells and some interesting OCC abilities.

[Nightmask]

The Temporal Raiders likely require that period of indentured servitude, whether the apprentice going on to become a teacher themselves does so is debatable (although most likely the average GM would impose it for no other reason than it's in the book). Most of that's made clear to have nothing to do with any sort of training to be a Temporal Wizard or Temporal Warrior, it's just slave labor before they finally teach them in the last few years. If a GM wanted to skip all that extra time as an effective slave the GM certainly can, as could a PC teacher.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's pretty specific about the training for them, and that it's on purpose. You have to work under the evil mentor for a number of years performing all manner of evil acts to "prove" yourselves to them. It's an outgrowth of the fact that magic 'should/is' a highly powerful 'thing' and that mentors have to be careful who they teach what.

Every spell that a mentor teaches a student can be used against them at a later date. Conjuring a bowl of water, sure. MD Fireballs, another, and some of the higher level spells even more so.

In the case of the temporals, the vast vast majority of them are EVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIL. Evil 'trusting' other evil (And you have to be evil to murder and stuff as their suck boys) and then -empowering- other evil is dangerous and.... kinda not too smart.

Sure you want more powerful servants but if they become too powerful they become a threat to you. You, by nature of being one of the Temporals is just eeeevvvvviiiil. So why would you trust someone else? Most especially another evil dude that wants to learn how to be a better and more powerful evil dude.

It's kinda like the Sith. The Master has to keep a DANG Close eye on the Apprentice, because he KNOWS, not thinks, but KNOWS, when the apprentice reaches a certain point or power level, he's going to try and take you out... The Smart Master takes out the apprentice before that happens, and pulls forth the backup.

In this case that would make playing the class pretty difficult. So it stipulates the training time (And slavery to that 'higher evil' that makes sure you're evil by sending you to murder rape and pillage in your name).

As a secondary point, all magic is supposed to take a long time to learn to master. It's not like a gun that you can pick up and in a few hours have the basics down, and or a few weeks be proficient. As written, Magic is more a life long pursuit and everyone's apprenticeship takes significant amounts of time. The Temps just directly dictate the time frame because putting in the years as an evil Suck boy is a pre-req, to the powerful class of evil doer.

[Axelmania]

Generally I would assume that you can only be taught an OCC by a member of that OCC, but Raiders training Wizards/Warriors and things like the Witch OCC or the Knight/Squire relationship in PF speak to there being room for exceptions.

In this case we have to ask: are there cases where you cannot be taught an OCC by a member of that OCC?

Witches I would say clearly prove that is true, unless there is some unpublished aspect of needing to be mentored by senior witches instead of being directly empowered by demons.

Twiz/Twar could be another such an exception. Until we have an example of a Temporal Wizard / Temporal Warrior who is explicitly Raiderless, perhaps we should assume these OCCs are special and somehow cannot be taught without a Temporal Raider master, who will always require those years of service?

[jtjr26]

It's pretty specific about the training for them, and that it's on purpose. You have to work under the evil mentor for a number of years performing all manner of evil acts to "prove" yourselves to them. It's an outgrowth of the fact that magic 'should/is' a highly powerful 'thing' and that mentors have to be careful who they teach what.

Every spell that a mentor teaches a student can be used against them at a later date. Conjuring a bowl of water, sure. MD Fireballs, another, and some of the higher level spells even more so.

In the case of the temporals, the vast vast majority of them are EVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIL. Evil 'trusting' other evil (And you have to be evil to murder and stuff as their suck boys) and then -empowering- other evil is dangerous and.... kinda not too smart.

Sure you want more powerful servants but if they become too powerful they become a threat to you. You, by nature of being one of the Temporals is just eeeevvvvviiiil. So why would you trust someone else? Most especially another evil dude that wants to learn how to be a better and more powerful evil dude.

It's kinda like the Sith. The Master has to keep a DANG Close eye on the Apprentice, because he KNOWS, not thinks, but KNOWS, when the apprentice reaches a certain point or power level, he's going to try and take you out... The Smart Master takes out the apprentice before that happens, and pulls forth the backup.

In this case that would make playing the class pretty difficult. So it stipulates the training time (And slavery to that 'higher evil' that makes sure you're evil by sending you to murder rape and pillage in your name).

As a secondary point, all magic is supposed to take a long time to learn to master. It's not like a gun that you can pick up and in a few hours have the basics down, and or a few weeks be proficient. As written, Magic is more a life long pursuit and everyone's apprenticeship takes significant amounts of time. The Temps just directly dictate the time frame because putting in the years as an evil Suck boy is a pre-req, to the powerful class of evil doer.

You make good points and I like the Sith analogy, but my original thought was not that I was looking to get around the time it was necessary to learn magic but more if strictly from the perspective of learning how to be a Temporal Wizard from another Temporal Wizard who was willing to teach. If the learner was already a trained mage say a Ley Line Walker around lv 5 would the training itself till take as long as the student had already mastered the fundamentals of magic to get to that point.

[Shark_Force]

ley line walkers (by default at least) cannot learn temporal magic until they're level 9.

this implies that there is not a simple easy shortcut that could be taken to achieve the desired result of learning temporal magic spells.

of course, at your table, that doesn't have to be how things work, but i would be inclined to say that the intent appears to be that there's something about temporal magic that makes it a non-trivial task to learn, regardless of prior experience with other types of magic.

[Axelmania]

LLW weren't really singled out. Page 66 of WB3:

Temporal magic spells and rituals are unique and available only to these O.C.C.s. Only high level practitioners of magic (9th level and higher) ever get the opportunity to learn temporal magic spells (rarely spells above 12th level).

I guess this makes Temporal Raider RCC an OCC too

I think this guideline might've been tossed out at some point though, you had Paradox Shamans in Spirit West and High Magi in Federation of Magic gaining access to these prior to 12th levels, plus then you had some of the temporal magic spells incorporated into the mainstream spellcasting lists of HU2/PF2

Page 243 of the Book of Magic did reprint the note though... so I guess the guideline should hold in effect except for OCCs which explicit note access to it like the Paradox/High or that one Vanguard OCC.

[Nightmask]

ley line walkers (by default at least) cannot learn temporal magic until they're level 9.

this implies that there is not a simple easy shortcut that could be taken to achieve the desired result of learning temporal magic spells.

of course, at your table, that doesn't have to be how things work, but i would be inclined to say that the intent appears to be that there's something about temporal magic that makes it a non-trivial task to learn, regardless of prior experience with other types of magic.

That more looks like it's just how Ley Line Walkers are taught making it too difficult to learn temporal magic before level 9, since how Temporal Wizards are taught in those last few years of actual teaching they end up with a number of temporal magic spells as well as regular spells covering all levels. Seems to be the educational focus that is responsible for that.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Temporal Magic was in a book that was written and printed back when there was at least *some* attempt at balance in Rifts. Sure, you got to start at level X...but you also gave up some things (sanity, for example).

The time listed doesn't necessarily mean it takes Y number of years to learn the listed spells. Could also mean it took Y number of years of servitude to reach L level, and along the way you learned N number of spells (and acquired I number of insanities, lost a certain amount of charisma/attractiveness, etc).

[Shark_Force]

ley line walkers (by default at least) cannot learn temporal magic until they're level 9.

this implies that there is not a simple easy shortcut that could be taken to achieve the desired result of learning temporal magic spells.

of course, at your table, that doesn't have to be how things work, but i would be inclined to say that the intent appears to be that there's something about temporal magic that makes it a non-trivial task to learn, regardless of prior experience with other types of magic.

That more looks like it's just how Ley Line Walkers are taught making it too difficult to learn temporal magic before level 9, since how Temporal Wizards are taught in those last few years of actual teaching they end up with a number of temporal magic spells as well as regular spells covering all levels. Seems to be the educational focus that is responsible for that.

or the first many years of being a servant to the temporal raider are not as pointless as is generally assumed.

i mean, you gotta figure that somewhere there's a temporal raider willing to forgo years of servitude for a big enough payout, and yet that isn't an option. likewise, you'd have to assume there's a temporal raider or someone else willing to teach temporal magic to people that aren't extremely high level for sufficient payout, and yet once again that isn't an option. so far as i can tell, for one reason or another, there don't seem to be any shortcuts available in the rules to quickly and easily learn temporal magic, which implies that temporal magic is neither quick nor easy to learn.

[eliakon]

A few thoughts here.
The first thought is that the first training period seems to be pretty consistant with the time it would take to train a mage anyway. It takes a number of years as an apprentice or student and this is just the time it takes for this class.

The second is that the additional time periods represent actual adventuring, thus the XP but at some cost

The third thought is that the issue of if a normal mage can or can not learn temporal magic before level 9 is a tricky one. Depending on how the text is interpreted it may mean you must be level 9 to be able to cast them or level 9 to be considered worthy by the Temporal community. I am on the latter side because of the way the spell list of the Temporal Magic and Invocations are set up. Specifically we note that several spells in Temporal magic appear to be variations of normal spells like Time Hole, then there is Time Slip, the various rift spells, and now Dimensional Pockets which has become an invocation...
my conclusion is that Temporal magic is kept exclusive because of the process of diffusion where in if a regular mage gets the formula for a secret spell it tends to get 'out in the wild' so to speak and stops being a spell of the exclusive magic and is now just considered an Invocation. (Shadowmancy and Shadow Meld, Cloak of Shadows,. Temporal magic and the above, et multiple etcetera)

Your take on it may differ, but I thought I would present not just which side of the issue I am on, but why I think that it is that way.