RIFTS Warlocks

[Atroxadventurer]

Does a Level 1 Warlock only get 3 lvl 1 spells, or is it 3 from any level?

Don't own revised Conversion book, n old one kinda vague

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Does a Level 1 Warlock only get 3 lvl 1 spells, or is it 3 from any level?

Don't own revised Conversion book, n old one kinda vague

.. not sure how you consider an unequivocal statement of what level spells are available vague. Single Element Warlocks get 3 spells per level of their element equal,to or lower than their level.

Dual-element warlocks get one from each element, equal to or lower than their level.

[Atroxadventurer]

Does a Level 1 Warlock only get 3 lvl 1 spells, or is it 3 from any level?

Don't own revised Conversion book, n old one kinda vague

.. not sure how you consider an unequivocal statement of what level spells are available vague. Single Element Warlocks get 3 spells per level of their element equal,to or lower than their level.

Dual-element warlocks get one from each element, equal to or lower than their level.

The way it was written doesn't seem to convey that, looking at old Conversion book

"Once the character
has bonded with the elemental force of choice, he will be able to select
three (3) new spells for every level of experience."
Doesn't state level, this old book.

Thanks, that'll work

[Axelmania]

Atroc I'm looking at page 59 of the 1st printing of the Conversion Book from November 1991. What you have quoted is from "2. Initial Spell Knowledge and Learning New Spells:"

What you need to read is "3. Choosing and Gaining spells". Initially this kept some of the PRPG text:

At first level the warlock can select a total of two spells from the first level spells offered by his selected
elemental life sign(s).

However the actual example correctly uses 3:

A water warlock (having one elemental lord) can select any three first level water elemental spells at first level.
At second level, the warlock chooses another three water spells, but is able to choose from the range of spells listed under first and second level.
Upon reaching third level of experience, the warlock can again choose three water spells, but this time is able to make his selections from the full range of water spells listed under levels 1, 2, and 3.

I think they fixed the error in later reprints.

[Atroxadventurer]

Atroc I'm looking at page 59 of the 1st printing of the Conversion Book from November 1991. What you have quoted is from "2. Initial Spell Knowledge and Learning New Spells:"

What you need to read is "3. Choosing and Gaining spells". Initially this kept some of the PRPG text:

At first level the warlock can select a total of two spells from the first level spells offered by his selected
elemental life sign(s).

However the actual example correctly uses 3:

A water warlock (having one elemental lord) can select any three first level water elemental spells at first level.
At second level, the warlock chooses another three water spells, but is able to choose from the range of spells listed under first and second level.
Upon reaching third level of experience, the warlock can again choose three water spells, but this time is able to make his selections from the full range of water spells listed under levels 1, 2, and 3.

I think they fixed the error in later reprints.

Ok, cool, makes the Warlock worth progressing, not power heavy right up front

[kaid]

Warlock spells also ramp up in power faster per spell level faster tha traditional spell casters so the limited to your level or below works out pretty well.

[Axelmania]

Elemental Shamans end up being generally better but the downside is you lose your powers if you die. A resurrected Warlock keeps his powers.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Does a Level 1 Warlock only get 3 lvl 1 spells, or is it 3 from any level?

Don't own revised Conversion book, n old one kinda vague

Three per level of advancement.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Warlock spells also ramp up in power faster per spell level faster tha traditional spell casters so the limited to your level or below works out pretty well.

How so? From what I remember (it's been more than a few years, admittedly), pretty much any of the classes that can learn spells whenever (LLW, TW, the Temporals, probably a bunch I'm forgetting) absolutely smoke the "only get spells at a new level" classes like the warlock. The Spells Per Level crowd have other abilities, obviously, and you have to play them smart, but on a purely magical power basis the LLW basically left everyone else in the dust, aside from a few munckin classes in the later books and some of the Atlantean stuff, neither of which I'm intimately familiar with. (And again, it's been more than a few years since I've played or GM'ed, so my memory may be faulty) Does the warlock get an @ssload of PPE or something? I mean, MORE than the LLW and temporals?

[Mack]

Warlock spells also ramp up in power faster per spell level faster tha traditional spell casters so the limited to your level or below works out pretty well.

How so? From what I remember (it's been more than a few years, admittedly), pretty much any of the classes that can learn spells whenever (LLW, TW, the Temporals, probably a bunch I'm forgetting) absolutely smoke the "only get spells at a new level" classes like the warlock. The Spells Per Level crowd have other abilities, obviously, and you have to play them smart, but on a purely magical power basis the LLW basically left everyone else in the dust, aside from a few munckin classes in the later books and some of the Atlantean stuff, neither of which I'm intimately familiar with. (And again, it's been more than a few years since I've played or GM'ed, so my memory may be faulty) Does the warlock get an @ssload of PPE or something? I mean, MORE than the LLW and temporals?

I believe he's saying the spells themselves are more powerful. A level 3 Warlock spell gives more 'bang' than a level 3 Invocation.

[dragonfett]

Additionally, Warlocks pay less to cast those spells than other casters do. And as far as the classes that can learn spells in between levels, that's not only if your GM says that there are spells available to be taught where you are.

[kaid]

Warlocks spells are more efficient ppe wise and do more damage typically at lower spell levels with the rue change it makes them the best blaster type caster as they can cast stronger spells with less actions.

[Axelmania]

Of course, you could always as a 1st level shifter summon a lesser elemental to cast way many more spells for you. Or a pair of them (or 1 greater) at 3rd level.

[SpiritInterface]

My printing has it as 3 level 1 spells and 3 for every subsequent levels of your current level or less.

[kaid]

Of course, you could always as a 1st level shifter summon a lesser elemental to cast way many more spells for you. Or a pair of them (or 1 greater) at 3rd level.

Warlocks can also summon elementals and elemental fragments to augment their casting. Warlocks are very specialized but what they do they do really really well.

Most players who want to play a spell caster that does most of their damage via spells I point at warlocks or elemental shamans. They are the few who are efficient enough at casting and have good enough combat spells to make that work. Once they get their elements main big dog combat spell few can match them for combat spells. Such as throwing out fields of lava to wipe out entire squads of troops in one cast or tornados/whirlpools or other mass casualty spells. And not only do they have these they usually only take two actions or less to use and for as much damage and large area effect as they are tend to be pretty reasonable PPE cost.


Because they gain spells levels for each real level they have but their max level spells are I believe 7 it means they get their biggest nastiest spells available pretty early and their efficiency means they can really unleash some serious damage.

Their main disadvantage is other than the Palladium fantasy book of magic warlock spells they don't really have any force field armor of ithan type spells. The palladium fantasy does add in some earth warlock armor spells but they are pretty encumbering to use.

Still easy enough to pick up some TW trinket or magic armor that can generate that kind of field for them.

[Shark_Force]

Of course, you could always as a 1st level shifter summon a lesser elemental to cast way many more spells for you. Or a pair of them (or 1 greater) at 3rd level.

Warlocks can also summon elementals and elemental fragments to augment their casting. Warlocks are very specialized but what they do they do really really well.

Most players who want to play a spell caster that does most of their damage via spells I point at warlocks or elemental shamans. They are the few who are efficient enough at casting and have good enough combat spells to make that work. Once they get their elements main big dog combat spell few can match them for combat spells. Such as throwing out fields of lava to wipe out entire squads of troops in one cast or tornados/whirlpools or other mass casualty spells. And not only do they have these they usually only take two actions or less to use and for as much damage and large area effect as they are tend to be pretty reasonable PPE cost.


Because they gain spells levels for each real level they have but their max level spells are I believe 7 it means they get their biggest nastiest spells available pretty early and their efficiency means they can really unleash some serious damage.

Their main disadvantage is other than the Palladium fantasy book of magic warlock spells they don't really have any force field armor of ithan type spells. The palladium fantasy does add in some earth warlock armor spells but they are pretty encumbering to use.

Still easy enough to pick up some TW trinket or magic armor that can generate that kind of field for them.

i would say the class depends a great deal on what element of warlock you pick.

air is an extremely strong all-around caster. powerful attack magic, some nice utility, good crowd control, good summons. even some decent protection options. it is probably the strongest of the warlock elements for most campaigns, and one of the two i would really recommend staying single-element for (in this case because it has everything you need).

fire is a lot like a weaker version of air in most ways. you can make it work, but you're going to need to work a lot harder to get the kinds of results you could get with air. you ccould go single-element with fire, but i would recommend you go double element, and grab the best fire option and whatever your other element is.

water is fairly different. it has a ton of ways to make clouds, a few offensive spells, but it really lacks in utility unless you're spending the majority of your time on or in a body of water and the attack spells are generally not as powerful as air or fire. i would only really recommend staying single element in an ocean campaign. maybe not even then.

earth is very different. it is the second element i would recommend staying single-element for, but for different reasons. earth has a few decent attack spells (enough for you to get by on certainly), reasonable defense (mostly in the form of walls), and good summons, but to make many of the spells really great you kinda need to combo them, either with other earth elemental spells or with skills (and you're gonna need some GM rulings for sure). dig is a good spell for getting through walls and such, but you may need to first crumble rock to be able to dig it (doesn't work on solid rock, but of course, crumble rock makes rock not solid). and to get through metal walls you may need to first turn a wall to stone. given enough time and PPE, you can build or create danged near anything from literally nothing, but you're going to need to have the skills to make good buildings or to mine for minerals or create an underground base that won't collapse. a dual-element earth warlock is going to be missing a lot of the spells you need to combine to leverage the ones you do have to their fullest extent. a dual-class warlock not only gets fewer spells (2 per level instead of 3), but also has to split those spells between both elements, meaning you'll only have one earth spell per level instead of 3. i will say that i feel earth warlocks have the greatest potential to become filthy stinking rich, which can give you an entirely different kind of versatility... air might be able to conjure a whirlwind, but it probably isn't going to let you find a gold deposit big enough to let you buy a hundred NG labour robots reprogrammed and equipped for combat, nor is it likely to be terribly useful in extracting the minerals or to build suits of MDC wooden armour that those labour bots can wear to prevent costly damage

[Eagle]

Warlock spells also ramp up in power faster per spell level faster tha traditional spell casters so the limited to your level or below works out pretty well.

How so? From what I remember (it's been more than a few years, admittedly), pretty much any of the classes that can learn spells whenever (LLW, TW, the Temporals, probably a bunch I'm forgetting) absolutely smoke the "only get spells at a new level" classes like the warlock. The Spells Per Level crowd have other abilities, obviously, and you have to play them smart, but on a purely magical power basis the LLW basically left everyone else in the dust, aside from a few munckin classes in the later books and some of the Atlantean stuff, neither of which I'm intimately familiar with. (And again, it's been more than a few years since I've played or GM'ed, so my memory may be faulty) Does the warlock get an @ssload of PPE or something? I mean, MORE than the LLW and temporals?

Warlock spells are generally superior to LLW spells. Once you hit about 5th level, Warlock spells start doing a lot of damage, and/or having powerful effects that nobody else can get. And it's cheap, PPE-wise. When you hit 7th level, you start getting access to major league screw-you spells.

Warlock magic only goes up to level 8, so in a mid level campaign you'll have most of your really powerful stuff. At that point, you've got huge area of effect battlefield magic that can wipe out entire formations of troops. You get spells like Tornado, a level 7 Air spell that costs 60 PPE, lasts for 1 minute per level, and sucks in anything within 100 feet, no saving throw. Anything caught be it (buildings, trees, vehicles, people) take 4D6x10 MD per melee. After D6 melees, you get thrown out for an additional 2D6x10 MD. The Warlock can also move the tornado around while the spell lasts (undefined speed). Think that is worth 60 PPE?

[kaid]

One thing to note about water warlocks is if you are on or near water they are extremely strong. They actually get their real big damage spell earlier than the others but it has to be used in a body of water.

Fire is more specifically attack spells with some utility. For somebody who wants to play a blaster type spell caster they work really well for that.

Earth is very much utility oriented but it also gains access to some serious battlefield magics that few other spell casters can match.

Air is the most well rounded good utility good offense and usable about anywhere.


And I would agree with the above poster for battlefield magics it is REALLY hard to compete with warlocks. Midlevel warlocks are throwing out some huge damage large area effect powers. Take water warlocks they are one of the least offensive oriented warlocks and yet they have a spell that can basically one shot a lot of what we have seen for warships. Any smaller patrol craft/frigate type ship likely cannot survive it. Even midsized warships could get severely damaged/crippled by it. Earth warlocks can cast devastating earthquakes that impact a very large area for high damage and fire is dropping giant fields of lava that can wipe out entire platoons worth of troops/vehicles.

[Axelmania]

I'm trying now to figure out how long it takes Shifters to summon something. I remember the Warlock's elemental-summoning ritual goes from 2D6 hours in PRPG to 2D6 minutes in Rifts.

Who can keep them longer is also an issue. Warlock Elementals can get murderous if you don't release them, whereas Shifter Elementals will teleport away the second they defeat you in the battle of wills.

[Eagle]

So other than "leaving the campaign", what would be the effect of a lvl 8+ Earth Warlock using the "Transference of Essence and Intellect" spell to place his mind inside a Millennium Tree?

I don't think there's anything, rule-wise, to say that he can't do it. I'm just curious about people's opinions and what GM calls they would make.

[kaid]

I'm trying now to figure out how long it takes Shifters to summon something. I remember the Warlock's elemental-summoning ritual goes from 2D6 hours in PRPG to 2D6 minutes in Rifts.

Who can keep them longer is also an issue. Warlock Elementals can get murderous if you don't release them, whereas Shifter Elementals will teleport away the second they defeat you in the battle of wills.

The plus side for warlocks the elemental will flat tell you when he is about to get murderous. He does not sneak or lie or try to break free randomly. With a shifter I don't recall how long it takes to summon but they have their battle of wills thing and they can potentially lose control of their creatures. For a warlock all he has to do to stop an elementals attack is permit it to leave.

Also each warlock element offers a elemental fragment summon which is generally pretty nice either as an extra mini tank or back up spell caster depending on element and there is no chance for them to rebel or lose control over them.

[Mack]

If we're discussing nifty Warlock tricks, here's a few that an Air Warlock can do.

1) Cast Phantom (which knows all Air spells level 1-4). Direct it to cast Phantom Footman up to 5 times. Now you've got 5 invisible, supernaturally strong, flying, assistants for either combat or labor and you only spent 30 PPE.

2) Suppose the Warlock is low on PPE, but has 30 remaining. Cast Phantom for that 30. Then have the Phantom willing donate it's 100 PPE to the Warlock. Per RUE p186, the transfer is 70% efficient, so the Warlock now has 70 PPE to use and can dismiss the Phantom. Repeating this, the Warlock gains 40 PPE each time (until reaching his normal limit).

3) The Forty Minute Army...
Summon a Major Elemental (not a trivial task, but not that difficult either). The Major Elemental can summon 14 Minor Elementals and 46 Phantoms. Each Minor Elemental can summon 12 Phantom Footmen. Each Phantom can summon 5 Phantom Footmen. So you end up with a flying, invisible, odorless, force of:
- 1 Major Elemental
- 14 Minor Elementals
- 46 Phantoms
- 398 Phantom Footmen
Now, they'll have used all their PPE on summoning, and the whole force won't last an hour. But for about 40 minutes the Warlock has a small battalion to work with.

[Axelmania]

Shifters/Summoners don't have a risk of being murdered so long as they only enslave 1 elemental at a time. If they win a BoW they will teleport away instantly unless you have other elementals under your control, in which case they will stick around and attack you until you free them.

Shifters can summon major elementals at 3rd level. Don't warlocks need to be much higher to try that?

[kaid]

Shifters/Summoners don't have a risk of being murdered so long as they only enslave 1 elemental at a time. If they win a BoW they will teleport away instantly unless you have other elementals under your control, in which case they will stick around and attack you until you free them.

Shifters can summon major elementals at 3rd level. Don't warlocks need to be much higher to try that?

I believe they can attempt it at level 1 but your chances of success are low until midlevels. But if you try it as often as you are allowed given how long you can have them available warlocks will have an elemental buddy more often than not.

[Axelmania]

CBrevised 69:

When the Warlock is high level, 9th or better, he may be able to summon a Greater Elemental at half the normal success ratio.

9th level puts you at 45%, 55% on line, 65% on nexus, so the chance of a greater would be 22/27/32.

What might be a nice house rule though is allow multiple warlocks of the same elemental alignment to pool their levels, so if you had 9 1st level fire warlocks they could collectively summon a greater fire elemental with the same chance as a single 9th level warlock? Does that sound unbalanced?

[Mack]

Shifters/Summoners don't have a risk of being murdered so long as they only enslave 1 elemental at a time. If they win a BoW they will teleport away instantly unless you have other elementals under your control, in which case they will stick around and attack you until you free them.

Shifters can summon major elementals at 3rd level. Don't warlocks need to be much higher to try that?

I need a couple of page references.

1) Where does it say that a Shifter can summon an elemental?
2) Where does it say that at third level a Shifter can summon a greater elemental?

[dragonfett]

Shifters/Summoners don't have a risk of being murdered so long as they only enslave 1 elemental at a time. If they win a BoW they will teleport away instantly unless you have other elementals under your control, in which case they will stick around and attack you until you free them.

Shifters can summon major elementals at 3rd level. Don't warlocks need to be much higher to try that?

I need a couple of page references.

1) Where does it say that a Shifter can summon an elemental?
2) Where does it say that at third level a Shifter can summon a greater elemental?

Page 124 of the RUE says that a Shifter can control additional supernatural creatures at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 15, and that greater supernatural creatures count as two lesser supernatural creatures for the purposes of controlling them.

[Mack]

I'm going to get a bit pedantic here, but there's nothing that states a Shifter can summon an Elemental (minor or major). A Shifter can summon demons & supernatural beings. Elementals are neither of those. Elementals are essence fragments from an Elemental Intelligence.

For the Level 3 reference, the text refers to "one Greater Demon or undead." That's pretty specifically not a Major Elemental.

[dragonfett]

I was always under the impression that while many Shifters summoned demons, there were other things they could summon that were not inherently evil.

[Atroxadventurer]

I was always under the impression that while many Shifters summoned demons, there were other things they could summon that were not inherently evil.

Like Faeries(powerful ally in Palladium) and Elementals, same

[dreicunan]

It is likely that many think of Shifters as being able to summon elementals since Summoners, with whom they share some traits, most definitely can.

Dragons and Gods does define elementals as greater supernatural beings, and the major elementals are essence fragments of an elemental intelligence, but the minor ones are said to be something else. Thete might be enough wiggle room.there for a Shifter to be able to summon one.

[Shark_Force]

I'm going to get a bit pedantic here, but there's nothing that states a Shifter can summon an Elemental (minor or major). A Shifter can summon demons & supernatural beings. Elementals are neither of those. Elementals are essence fragments from an Elemental Intelligence.

For the Level 3 reference, the text refers to "one Greater Demon or undead." That's pretty specifically not a Major Elemental.

elementals are supernatural beings. it doesn't matter if they're essence fragments, they still exist as a distinct being, and they are most definitely supernatural in both the common meaning of the word and in the game-specific meaning of the word. consider, for example, the spell "protection circle: simple", which states:

"Greater beings, such as vampires, Elementals, and demigods..." (contextually it is clear they are referring to 'beings' as 'supernatural beings', which is explicitly mentioned when discussing the lesser supernatural beings in previous parts).

page 13 of the GMG lists Elementals specifically as being supernatural beings as well.

likewise, a clear unequivocal statement that elementals are supernatural beings can be found in the spell "Dessicate the Supernatural", and there are strong implications in the spell "Expel Demons".

now having said that... while they are supernatural beings, *most* elementals that we're thinking of are greater supernatural beings (or at least, are grouped in with them anywhere else i can find that makes the distinction between greater and lesser), and while shifters can trade in two lesser supernatural beings for greater demons... they are not given the ability to do so for greater supernatural beings in general.

there is *some* good news on this front for shifters though:

in the spell "constrain being", minor elementals are explicitly stated to be lesser supernatural beings. so, what are minor elementals? well, CB1r says the following (page 69) in summoning note 2:

"The Warlock may also be able to summon Minor Elementals and fragmented essences from an Elemental Intelligence by means of Elemental spell Magic. These are even less powerful beings than a Lesser Elemental..."

so, we can glean that lesser elementals are definitely not minor elementals, and that minor elementals are less powerful. we can also glean that warlocks can summon minor elementals with spells, which means that at least one of the creatures that can be summoned by warlock spells is definitely a minor elemental, and it is implied that all of them are. if we go up a bit to summoning note 1, we also find this:

"Even the most minor of Elementals like the Phantom..."

when we put all this together, i'd say we get a picture something like this:

shifters cannot summon lesser or greater elementals using their class ability (unless of course the DM considers it to be implied by the fact that they can trade two lessers for a greater in other categories). they may be able to do so with spells (i didn't notice anything suitable for that in the standard invocation spell list, but i may be missing something, and they do explicitly get easy access to "any" summoning spell that isn't for weather). they can, however, gain access to minor elementals with that class ability, a group which explicitly includes phantoms, and is implied to include all of the fragments that can be summoned using elemental magic spells given that the phantom is probably the most powerful option from warlock spell magic and is stated to be a minor elemental (an argument could be made for the little mud mound or the little ice monster being stronger, but the ice monster only gets level 1 spells and i would say the mud mound is less powerful simply because air magic is frankly way more powerful than earth magic =S )

[Axelmania]

I'm going to get a bit pedantic here, but there's nothing that states a Shifter can summon an Elemental (minor or major).

Conversion Book Revised 70:

Most Elementals never leave the Elemental dimension, which is their home, unless impressed against their will into some activity by a magic-user, usually a Shifter, Summon, Diabolist or Warlock

I don't really understand the Diabolist part, but that was probably referring to the Summon Lesser Being spell. Since the Shifter no longer starts with that in RUE, it would seem to make sense to replace that with their OCC ability.

A Shifter can summon demons & supernatural beings.
Elementals are neither of those.
Elementals are essence fragments from an Elemental Intelligence.

Dark Conversions 106 "Elementals come in all shapes and sizes, and as greater and lesser supernatural beings"
DC 109 "Minor Elementals are often independent Elemental beings who are simply smaller, less powerful versions of their Major cousins, but may also be the splintered essence of a young Elemental Intelligence."
DC 111 "These are usually independent Elemental beings, not fragments from an Elemental Intelligence"

So often they are not fragments, they can be independent. I imagine these were the ones (the minors) originally intended for shifters in RMB using the Summoner Lesser Being spell.

Majors seem off the table for anyone but Warlocks pre-RUE, but not Shifters can summon greater beings at the cost of 2 lesser slots, as dragonfett pointed out.

"Greater beings, such as vampires, Elementals

Vampires were originally classified as Greater Demons in the PRPG, though it's hard to think of Wild Vampires as Greater... I'd probably house-rule Wilds as Lesser and only have Secondaries be Greater.

Makes me wonder if this refers to ALL elementals, or is only talking about Greater ones. Page 196 of the original Rifts Conversion Book opened with "Elementals are greater supernatural beings"

This was under "Creatures of Earth, Fire, Air, Water" which was renamed "Spirits of Earth, Fire, Air, Water" in Dark Conversions where they replaced this line with the aforequoted "greater and lesser", so I think that is clearly overrode.

page 13 of the GMG lists Elementals specifically as being supernatural beings as well.
a clear unequivocal statement that elementals are supernatural beings can be found in the spell "Dessicate the Supernatural"
there are strong implications in the spell "Expel Demons".

Nice finds!

while shifters can trade in two lesser supernatural beings for greater demons... they are not given the ability to do so for greater supernatural beings in general.

RUE 124 I suppose that is going super by-the-book, although it's actually "one Greater Demon or undead"... which makes me wonder if they mean "Greater undead" or undead in general... and what examples we have of undead who are not demons... all that comes to mind are Mummies, various zombies...

the spell "constrain being", minor elementals are explicitly stated to be lesser supernatural beings.
CB1r says the following (page 69) in summoning note 2:
"The Warlock may also be able to summon Minor Elementals and fragmented essences from an Elemental Intelligence by means of Elemental spell Magic. These are even less powerful beings than a Lesser Elemental..."

Almost seems like a carryover from PRPG, can't recall if PF still uses the "lesser" distinction or if it's gone full-fragment. I don't know if fragments/intelligences existed in PRPG or if they were invented for Rifts. I only remember Lesser/Major

we can glean that lesser elementals are definitely not minor elementals,
and that minor elementals are less powerful.
we can also glean that warlocks can summon minor elementals with spells,
which means that at least one of the creatures that can be summoned by warlock spells is definitely a minor elemental,
and it is implied that all of them are.

if we go up a bit to summoning note 1, we also find this:
"Even the most minor of Elementals like the Phantom..."

Which gives us at least 1 solid candidate. Although, I had thought Phantoms had also been called fragments...

Perhaps fragments can be minors?

when we put all this together, i'd say we get a picture something like this:

shifters cannot summon lesser or greater elementals using their class ability (unless of course the DM considers it to be implied by the fact that they can trade two lessers for a greater in other categories).

I'm not sure how we got there.

Us knowing that Minor Elementals are Lesser Supernatural Beings and that Lesser Elementals are stronger than Minor Elementals doesn't necessarily mean that Lesser Elementals are Greater Supernatural Beings. They could simply be a stronger race of Lesser Supernatural Beings.

Like for example: Gurgoyles vs Gargoyles? That said I do recall that Gargoyle Lords / Gargoyle Mages counted as Greater Beings (2 slots) for Summoners in PF. Not sure for Shifters.

they may be able to do so with spells (i didn't notice anything suitable for that in the standard invocation spell list, but i may be missing something,

Summon Lesser Being, I'm pretty sure. It was the original default.

they can, however, gain access to minor elementals with that class ability, a group which explicitly includes phantoms, and is implied to include all of the fragments that can be summoned using elemental magic spells given that the phantom is probably the most powerful option from warlock spell magic and is stated to be a minor elemental (an argument could be made for the little mud mound or the little ice monster being stronger, but the ice monster only gets level 1 spells and i would say the mud mound is less powerful simply because air magic is frankly way more powerful than earth magic =S )

So you think it works like the spell, but indefinitely depending on Battles of Will instead of normal spell durations?

I still don't see why this would exclude Lesser Elementals. Where have they been called Greater Supernatural Beings? I understand they're gray in that they haven't been defined as LSBs like Minor Elementals have, but lacking clarifiers, I would go by the 'Lesser' in their name.

[kaid]

This conversation does point one thing out. If they do monster guides please god make an entry for each with a consistent notation of type of creature such as lesser greater super natural undead and what not.

[Shark_Force]

we're assuming elementals in general are greater supernatural beings because there are many references that group elementals with greater supernatural beings, and the *only* one to list them as lesser supernatural beings mentions only the minor elementals are lesser supernatural beings. so, we have a general rule (elementals are greater supernatural beings) and a specific rule (minor elementals are lesser supernatural beings). minor elementals are clarified as being elementals that are less powerful than lesser elementals, and we know for certain that lesser elementals are not less powerful than lesser elementals because that's a tautological statement. so we have no statements so far that lesser elementals are lesser supernatural beings. that doesn't mean they aren't, but until we find some evidence that they are, there is a general rule that makes elementals greater beings unless otherwise specfied, as is the case for minor elementals which include the phantom and probably also the leaf rustler, phantom footman, little mud mound, little ice monster, and fire friend.

note that since we know shifters can summon minor elementals (either with the summon lesser beings spell, which shifters can get as early as level 2 so it's not exactly hard to access for them, or with their class ability), the statements that elementals are summoned by shifters is also satisfied; there is, in this case at least, no conflict. a shifter who calls up a phantom has summoned an elemental, just not a lesser or greater elemental.

so until we find something stating that lesser elementals are lesser supernatural beings, they're off-limits for shifters, at least by a strict rules interpretation (again, i think there's some wiggle room to argue that maybe a shifter is supposed to be able to trade in two lesser supernatural beings for one general greater supernatural being, but that would be a house rule).

[Eagle]

Aren't elementals on the shifter summoning table in one of the dimension books?

[Shark_Force]

Aren't elementals on the shifter summoning table in one of the dimension books?

if they are, it is probably dark conversions. i'm pretty sure RUE is more recent, so it would be the most up-to-date version. if it doesn't say elementals in the RUE, that is probably the most official answer (also, as i've already pointed out, shifters *can* summon elementals, so long as they're minor elementals).

[Axelmania]

we're assuming elementals in general are greater supernatural beings because there are many references that group elementals with greater supernatural beings, and the *only* one to list them as lesser supernatural beings mentions only the minor elementals are lesser supernatural beings.

If you're okay looking outside of Rifts, page 145 of the Palladium Fantasy RPG 2nd Edition under "lesser beings" says "minor/lesser elementals" while "greater creatures" includes only "major elementals".

I realize the desire to include them since somehow vampires and gargoyle lords are classed with major elementals despite neither being as impressive as a Lesser Elemental, but there it is.

we have no statements so far that lesser elementals are lesser supernatural beings.

I think it's reasonable to say that "lesser beings" would include "lesser supernatural beings".

Aren't elementals on the shifter summoning table in one of the dimension books?

First I'm hearing of a shifter summoning table, sounds interesting. Any "random chance" table perhaps? I would love that.

*does some digging*

http://palladiumbooks.com/forums/viewto ... ?p=2210756 in 2010 runebeo mentioned:

In Dimensional Builder summoning tables it has the Shen Wu with no bonuses to battle of wills because they live to serve and full of honor.

I assume this refers to Dimension Book 7: Megaversal Builder but I've read 39-47's revisit of Shifter OCC (appears to be the post-RMB pre-RUE version, more resembling latter) and can't find such a table, so maybe it's elsewhere....


ah PAGE 57! It was listed in the ToC but didn't really jump out... what a gem.

Of course it might benefit from some mods for anything missing from the table but this is useful for providing examples or a starting place at least.

It says "a random summoning table for shifters" and mentions resisting a Shifter's Battle of Wills, referring to the OCC ability and not the SLB spell. Interesting are penalties to the Mental Affinity attribute for BOW.

Page 58 has results for "Elemental Fragments" and "Minor Elementals" and "Major Elementals" indicating ANY variation can be summoned.

Of course... there's also a 1/100 chance of summoning an alien intelligence...

So being able to summon something wouldn't necessarily mean that whatever they summoned could fall under the purview of something their O.C.C ability would allow them to control.

However, if you check the breakdown on page 59, greater elementals list a -4 to MA, indicating they CAN be controlled by the Shifter's Battle of Wills.

Page 60 does not list a penalty for alien intelligences, just says to see Dark Conversions. I'm assuming this is the only thing you wouldn't be able to try to control.

RUE p 124's "Limitation & Conditions of Simple Pacts of Servitude" B) may not be present in DB7p43's suggestions but I don't think that means that suddenly all of these creatures from DB7p57-60 are off the table. Everything there with a -MA penalty next to it was clearly intended as summonable and dominatable by Shifters! It wasn't just Greater Demons, it was "Greater Deevils" and "Major Elementals" too.

[Eagle]

If I was a Shifter, I wouldn't worry about going for the Elementals. I'd want to summon Jinn. They've got 7th and 8th lvl elemental magic, and they understand the world a whole lot better than their dumber cousins. A Jinn isn't going to accidentally smash through the wall of your house and stomp on your car when you tell him to go fetch the paper.

[Axelmania]

The problem with Jinn is they are likely to seek to kill you soon as they can break free. Elementals will only try to kill you to free their brethren, if you let all of them go soon as 1 rebels, you're not in danger, as they don't seek revenge.

[kaid]

That is one of the nice things about elementals. Their main thing is they just don't want to be anywhere but their plane of existence. So generally if one starts getting restless you can simply let them go back home and they will do so.

[kaid]

Well the other good thing is if you can speak to them elementals don't lie they don't see any reason to do so. If one wants to kill you it will flat tell you that. If one wants to be let go it will say so.

[Axelmania]

It doesn't really mention them saying that, but it's a logical prelude to "I'm homesick enough to kill you, brother warlock" as a yellow light of sorts.

Considering how alien Elementals are, I'm suddenly getting a picture of a Warlock being fast asleep and the Elemental not understanding what sleep is, saying "I'll kill you if you don't send me back" and then, not being sent back (assuming the Warlock is ignoring him) killing him...

[dragonfett]

I would imagine that Elementals are at least aware enough to understand the concept of consciousness, and would at the very least wake the sleeping Warlock to demand to send it home.

[Axelmania]

Do we have any indication of whether or not Elementals sleep? I can't imagine them understanding anything that doesn't actually happen to them.

[Eagle]

Well they're supposed to give you warning. Not just "hey I wanna go home now... (pause) fine then, a-hole (crunch)". Like, weeks of warning. So they may not know what it means when you're asleep, but they aren't going from happy to murderous in the time that you're taking a nap.

I also think elementals probably have loud voices. I don't think they're whispering when they say "send me home now or I'll murder you".

[Axelmania]

You don't really know how long it takes to go happy>murderous. It's 1 roll per day and an instant changeover, far as I can tell.

Why do you think elementals have loud voices? CBRp68 says their language is part telepathy. Which is interesting since I can't see any psionics for any of the elementals...

pg 110 of Dark Conversions lists "natural telepath" under Natural Abiltiies for the major air elemental, but I can't see it for the minor air elemental on 111.

Major Earth elementals have telepathy too, except Major Lava and Major Tree/Plant. Minors lack like air.

All forms of Fire and Water appear to lack telepathy, so it appears that the Major Air / Major Earth are the easiest elementals to communicate with, because you or they would not have to make sound to keep in contact! The double-edged sword is they might simply telepathically communicate with you and you might just think you're dreaming that they want to kill you and not wake up?

[kaid]

Well they're supposed to give you warning. Not just "hey I wanna go home now... (pause) fine then, a-hole (crunch)". Like, weeks of warning. So they may not know what it means when you're asleep, but they aren't going from happy to murderous in the time that you're taking a nap.

I also think elementals probably have loud voices. I don't think they're whispering when they say "send me home now or I'll murder you".

Also note when you look at the secret language of elementals in the warlock description part of their language is spoken but some appears to be telepathic. I am not sure you could sleep through a grumpy elemental telling you something if you wanted to.

[Mack]

Other fun with Warlocks...

A Warlock can attempt to summon an Elemental each day, regardless if he was previously successful. Additionally, an Elemental won't turn hostile until it's been around for a week.

At Level 5, a Warlock has a 25% chance of summoning a Minor Elemental. On average, every 4 days he'll be successful. So on day 4 an Elemental arrives, and doesn't turn hostile until day 11. But if the Warlock continues to attempt to summon each day, then on day 8 he should be successful again and that Elemental won't turn hostile until day 15. So on days 8, 9, 10, & 11 the Warlock has 2 Elementals to work with.

The higher level the Warlock, the more powerful this becomes. At level 10, a Warlock will be successful every other day with the following cumulative result:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Day  Result    Elemental
1    Nothing
2    Success   1           (Elemental 1 arrives)
3    Nothing   1
4    Success   1, 2        (Elemental 2 arrives)
5    Nothing   1, 2
6    Success   1, 2, 3     (Elemental 3 arrives)
7    Nothing   1, 2, 3
8    Success   1, 2, 3, 4  (Elemental 4 arrives)
9    Nothing   2, 3, 4     (Elemental 1 leaves)
10   Success   2, 3, 4, 5  (Elemental 5 arrives)
11   Nothing   3, 4, 5     (Elemental 2 leaves)
12   Success   3, 4, 5, 6  (Elemental 6 arrives)

So once he gets into the second week, he always has either 3 or 4 Minor Elementals to work with. (Notwithstanding that random dice rolls will tweak the results.)

[Shark_Force]

well, i would agree that a sufficiently powerful warlock *could* have those numbers.

i would argue that a warlock would be unlikely to have that number all the time... part of being a warlock is that the elementals are your brothers/sisters just as you are theirs, and you know they don't like leaving their home, so yeah... if you're doing something dangerous you may very well have a group of elementals... but if you're not expecting trouble, the number you have around is more likely to be zero or at most one. obviously, as a PC that choice is up to the player, but i would point out that the *typical* amount of patience an elemental has once summoned is likely not the same if the warlock hasn't been a very good brother/sister