RIFTS Warlocks

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Mack
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Mack »

Shark_Force wrote:well, i would agree that a sufficiently powerful warlock *could* have those numbers.

i would argue that a warlock would be unlikely to have that number all the time... part of being a warlock is that the elementals are your brothers/sisters just as you are theirs, and you know they don't like leaving their home, so yeah... if you're doing something dangerous you may very well have a group of elementals... but if you're not expecting trouble, the number you have around is more likely to be zero or at most one. obviously, as a PC that choice is up to the player, but i would point out that the *typical* amount of patience an elemental has once summoned is likely not the same if the warlock hasn't been a very good brother/sister :P

Completely agree. This was more of a theoretical exercise of a Warlock gearing up for something major.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Eagle wrote:If I was a Shifter, I wouldn't worry about going for the Elementals. I'd want to summon Jinn. They've got 7th and 8th lvl elemental magic, and they understand the world a whole lot better than their dumber cousins. A Jinn isn't going to accidentally smash through the wall of your house and stomp on your car when you tell him to go fetch the paper.


I'd like to point out "accidentally" doing something is a mistake due to a lack of comprehension on the elementals part

The Jinn will do it all on purpose or do it right while waiting for a chance to REALLY stick it to you
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Mack »

Another "fun with Warlocks" thought...

Suppose you have an elderly Earth Warlock who's not ready to pass away peacefully. At 10th level he'd have about 45 Hit Points (with average die rolls). That's enough HP to create 10 Golems without killing himself. He then follows it up by crafting an exquisite golem-body and putting himself into it via Transference of Essence & Intellect.

Now he has a MDC regenerating body, a squad of Golems at his disposal, and all his magic abilities (which continue to advance). Sure beats sitting in a rocking chair with a life alert necklace waiting to break a hip. Only downside is a possible random insanity every four years (which is likely to be minor).
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Eagle »

I'd just find myself a nice Battlelord Automaton, transfer my mind in there.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Mack wrote: Only downside is a possible random insanity every four years (which is likely to be minor).


So lots of therapy and trips to the astral plane for some fun times as a astral self and he will be good right?
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Mack »

Nightmartree wrote:
Mack wrote: Only downside is a possible random insanity every four years (which is likely to be minor).


So lots of therapy and trips to the astral plane for some fun times as a astral self and he will be good right?


Absent a TW device, I'm not sure how an Earth Warlock would access the astral plane.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Mack wrote:Absent a TW device, I'm not sure how an Earth Warlock would access the astral plane.


I think there were ways listed in psyscape, I could be wrong (I need to reread that one) but its definitely something to look into. You do appear as a mental version of yourself right? so his astral "body" would be human and I know there are astral kingdoms he could kick back in and relax while his 10 golems guard his "real" body
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by taalismn »

Og, definitely going to have to create an NPC elder warlock doing the golem thing...maybe sharing the idea with his buddies, so they later have Tabletop Tuesdays at the Astral Spa.

"Grandpa can't help us out right now; he's taking his vacation in the Faraway."

Can also see a 'Not So Dead' club.. Some Astral Lord sets up a Realm as neutral ground, where New Immortals who have found various loopholes around death, and who can access astral space can hang out in spirit-"Hey, it's Liche-King Brono! Hey, Bones, come on over and meet the new ghosters! Yeah, Brono and I go waaaayyy back when he kept trying to flay me when I still had flesh! Well, I DID smash some of his canopic jars...cost you your liver if I remember right?"
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Mack »

taalismn wrote:Og, definitely going to have to create an NPC elder warlock doing the golem thing...maybe sharing the idea with his buddies, so they later have Tabletop Tuesdays at the Astral Spa.


Right. I originally had the idea for an NPC elder Air/Earth Warlock who went this route and dedicated his time to researching/killing Xiticix. Part of his background would be that he knew he wasn't as sane as he used to be, and felt that he shouldn't live in populated areas anymore. So he became a Lazlo field operative, feeding his findings back to the Kingdom. The idea was to use the Golems (who naturally heal and smell like stone) along with Sculpted Clay animals (50~150 MDC each) to bait and fight the Xiticix.

He'd also ambush random monsters with Petrification, use the Golems to move the 'statue' into Xiticix territory, then return it to flesh (or just wait the 1D6 months for the spell to expire). Thus he could kill two birds with one stone by letting evil fight evil.

With access to Air spells, he'd also get the most loved Phantom (which knows all Air spells level 1-4, flies, and is invisible) plus the ability to call either an Air or Earth Elemental depending on his latest scheme.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Shark_Force »

with access to air spells, he could create a clay animal of a human body, turn it to flesh, and then inhabit it.

(the spell explicitly includes the results of the clay animals spell as something the warlock can inhabit).

so crazy makes a lot more sense as a regular single-element earth warlock or at least a warlock that isn't partly air :)

(of course, even then you could potentially get help from an air elemental if one happens to be around, but that's a little less straightforward than just having access to the spell either directly or by being able to summon an air elemental any time you have a few days notice).
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nether »

Shark_Force wrote:well, i would agree that a sufficiently powerful warlock *could* have those numbers.

i would argue that a warlock would be unlikely to have that number all the time... part of being a warlock is that the elementals are your brothers/sisters just as you are theirs, and you know they don't like leaving their home, so yeah... if you're doing something dangerous you may very well have a group of elementals... but if you're not expecting trouble, the number you have around is more likely to be zero or at most one. obviously, as a PC that choice is up to the player, but i would point out that the *typical* amount of patience an elemental has once summoned is likely not the same if the warlock hasn't been a very good brother/sister :P


I would disagree myself. If they are your brethren and elemental X is what your whole existence stems around, why would you not want as many elementals around you as you could have?
Then there is the fact that it takes some effort to successfully summon one, (chance per day) so if you need an elemental now or very shortly your, your shooting your self in the foot because you will find commonly that you can't get one for days. Again though, I would think a Warlock would want to be surrounded by his comrades all the time, and the more the merrier. When one says he needs to go, then let em go, as your constantly summoning in new and letting go of the old ones, which I would see as a part of his daily job routines, but he actually likes his job. :)


As for the discussion in this thread, I'm just coming back to Rifts after long hiatus and right off the things that flew frustration for this game is a wall right in my face. The definitions and simplicity of finding them or more accurately everything needs to be discussed / debated to how it works because there is far too much ambiguity in the rules. Like what you guys just broke down of trying to figure out what an elemental is considered, and I'm taking it you guys know the books and rules very well but yet are having a debate on what that is. Ugh, i just want to play the game.

Good discussion though, continue on ;)
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Shark_Force »

at any given time, i may develop a need for the help of someone in my family, or a close friend. that doesn't mean i monopolize their time constantly just in case i might need them, particularly if i insist on hanging out in places that make them feel extremely uncomfortable 99.99999% of the time.

that doesn't mean i won't call them up if i'm going to move and need some help with the big stuff. but i'm not going to expect them to hang around me at work all day doing nothing just in case i might suddenly need to move, and frankly i wouldn't even consider asking them to do so... they're my family, not my slaves. i try to be there when they need it, they try to be there when i need it, and we all try to be as self-sufficient as possible. the warlock is not a helpless child, they have elemental magic that is quite strong in addition to other skills and equipment.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by eliakon »

Shark_Force wrote:at any given time, i may develop a need for the help of someone in my family, or a close friend. that doesn't mean i monopolize their time constantly just in case i might need them, particularly if i insist on hanging out in places that make them feel extremely uncomfortable 99.99999% of the time.

that doesn't mean i won't call them up if i'm going to move and need some help with the big stuff. but i'm not going to expect them to hang around me at work all day doing nothing just in case i might suddenly need to move, and frankly i wouldn't even consider asking them to do so... they're my family, not my slaves. i try to be there when they need it, they try to be there when i need it, and we all try to be as self-sufficient as possible. the warlock is not a helpless child, they have elemental magic that is quite strong in addition to other skills and equipment.

^this SO MUCH this^
I think the idea of playing in character gets lost a lot of the time in the race for more power. When that goes to far the dreaded 'M' and 'T' words get invoked, and rightfully I would add.
Just because you as a player are not attached to people in the game world and see them only as numbers to be manipulated and used doesn't mean that a person in universe should do the same.
There is a reason why in the game Star Fleet Battles they had to put rules on how self destruct was used...
It was being abused by players who figured out that they could win the game by blowing up their ships and sacrificing the entire crew. To them it didn't matter... after all it was just a game. But in universe the crew of that ship would have a rather different view on that and most races would not simply go out on suicide missions... even if it would win this particular battle. Especially since in universe it was not just that one battle, but the entire long war and all that follows, they don't care that this one particular seemingly pointless battle would determine regionals for the player. They are going to care about who will patrol the border if they die.

This sort of thing is easily lost in the glamor of finding a cool new loop hole or way to masage the rules a certain way. People tend to forget to step back and ask "Would the people in the universe actually do this? Or am I just min-maxing the game stats by playing the numbers and ignoring anything about the people, or avaliabilities, or morals, or knowledge or whatever"
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nether »

Shark_Force wrote:at any given time, i may develop a need for the help of someone in my family, or a close friend. that doesn't mean i monopolize their time constantly just in case i might need them, particularly if i insist on hanging out in places that make them feel extremely uncomfortable 99.99999% of the time.

that doesn't mean i won't call them up if i'm going to move and need some help with the big stuff. but i'm not going to expect them to hang around me at work all day doing nothing just in case i might suddenly need to move, and frankly i wouldn't even consider asking them to do so... they're my family, not my slaves. i try to be there when they need it, they try to be there when i need it, and we all try to be as self-sufficient as possible. the warlock is not a helpless child, they have elemental magic that is quite strong in addition to other skills and equipment.


A military leader / officer might make more sense to me than just some average joe. And to me, that's how your response comes across for the person your describing.

That means he will call them up if he needs stuff moved, and he does expect them to hang around a lot, especially at work all day doing nothing just in case the leader suddenly needs to move, and frankly he would expect them to do so... they're his to command, they're his family, not his slaves. They will be there when he needs it, and the leader is there when they need him, and they all try to be self sufficient as possible. The Warlock is not a helpless child, for he has invested in an entity greater than himself, not just for the power it brings him directly, but also for the soldiers such an entity offers to further him.

A military officer/commander probably values the life of his unit members and won't want to sacrifice them, but they very well knows that they might die in the path of his goal, whatever that may be.
He works with these people daily, and they do what he asks. Regardless of what he wants done, these men/women are his tools, even if friends, they will do what he orders them to do to achieve his goal.
He wants to most likely be around these people all the time, as they are also his friends / comrades, no matter where they are stationed, whether it be some hell pit or cold desolate barren.
When personnel can't handle being there any longer and request a transfer, how you handle that is dependent on whether your moral compass.

Your interpretation of what the Warlock is, is different than mine because I definitely see them as someone seeking power, who has reached out to an entity to grant him that power, that same entity who grants fragments of himself for you to use at your discretion so that you will never be beholden to others.

So yes i still really think it would be normal to encounter Warlocks with multiple elementals around them at all times.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nether »

eliakon wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:at any given time, i may develop a need for the help of someone in my family, or a close friend. that doesn't mean i monopolize their time constantly just in case i might need them, particularly if i insist on hanging out in places that make them feel extremely uncomfortable 99.99999% of the time.

that doesn't mean i won't call them up if i'm going to move and need some help with the big stuff. but i'm not going to expect them to hang around me at work all day doing nothing just in case i might suddenly need to move, and frankly i wouldn't even consider asking them to do so... they're my family, not my slaves. i try to be there when they need it, they try to be there when i need it, and we all try to be as self-sufficient as possible. the warlock is not a helpless child, they have elemental magic that is quite strong in addition to other skills and equipment.

^this SO MUCH this^
I think the idea of playing in character gets lost a lot of the time in the race for more power. When that goes to far the dreaded 'M' and 'T' words get invoked, and rightfully I would add.
Just because you as a player are not attached to people in the game world and see them only as numbers to be manipulated and used doesn't mean that a person in universe should do the same.
There is a reason why in the game Star Fleet Battles they had to put rules on how self destruct was used...
It was being abused by players who figured out that they could win the game by blowing up their ships and sacrificing the entire crew. To them it didn't matter... after all it was just a game. But in universe the crew of that ship would have a rather different view on that and most races would not simply go out on suicide missions... even if it would win this particular battle. Especially since in universe it was not just that one battle, but the entire long war and all that follows, they don't care that this one particular seemingly pointless battle would determine regionals for the player. They are going to care about who will patrol the border if they die.

This sort of thing is easily lost in the glamor of finding a cool new loop hole or way to masage the rules a certain way. People tend to forget to step back and ask "Would the people in the universe actually do this? Or am I just min-maxing the game stats by playing the numbers and ignoring anything about the people, or avaliabilities, or morals, or knowledge or whatever"


This makes it sound like that just because you want to utilize the powers granted you, that somehow your going to be an aberrant personality and sacrifice them because your not attached to them.
Isn't that what alignment in this game is for? If you don't care about them and send them on sacrificial missions then your alignment should represent that, same as if you do care for them. But your not some guy living in your parents basement just living life, your someone that has gone greatly out of their way to seek power, so much so that your entire livelihood centers around it.

And if a GM doesn't like the Warlock sending his elementals on self destruct missions as you would put it, then he needs to reign in what he allows for alignments. But even good alignments are going to be putting elementals into the line of fire just like a military officer would be doing with personnel that he care about.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Axelmania »

Besides those ten golems, Earth Warlocks could also learn that Golemgoyle ritual from Merctown. No permanent sacrifices needed, just enslave a tectonic entity or something. Apparently the Noro make entities in their spare time so the universe has an unlimited supply.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Nether wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:at any given time, i may develop a need for the help of someone in my family, or a close friend. that doesn't mean i monopolize their time constantly just in case i might need them, particularly if i insist on hanging out in places that make them feel extremely uncomfortable 99.99999% of the time.

that doesn't mean i won't call them up if i'm going to move and need some help with the big stuff. but i'm not going to expect them to hang around me at work all day doing nothing just in case i might suddenly need to move, and frankly i wouldn't even consider asking them to do so... they're my family, not my slaves. i try to be there when they need it, they try to be there when i need it, and we all try to be as self-sufficient as possible. the warlock is not a helpless child, they have elemental magic that is quite strong in addition to other skills and equipment.


A military leader / officer might make more sense to me than just some average joe. And to me, that's how your response comes across for the person your describing.

That means he will call them up if he needs stuff moved, and he does expect them to hang around a lot, especially at work all day doing nothing just in case the leader suddenly needs to move, and frankly he would expect them to do so... they're his to command, they're his family, not his slaves. They will be there when he needs it, and the leader is there when they need him, and they all try to be self sufficient as possible. The Warlock is not a helpless child, for he has invested in an entity greater than himself, not just for the power it brings him directly, but also for the soldiers such an entity offers to further him.

A military officer/commander probably values the life of his unit members and won't want to sacrifice them, but they very well knows that they might die in the path of his goal, whatever that may be.
He works with these people daily, and they do what he asks. Regardless of what he wants done, these men/women are his tools, even if friends, they will do what he orders them to do to achieve his goal.
He wants to most likely be around these people all the time, as they are also his friends / comrades, no matter where they are stationed, whether it be some hell pit or cold desolate barren.
When personnel can't handle being there any longer and request a transfer, how you handle that is dependent on whether your moral compass.

Your interpretation of what the Warlock is, is different than mine because I definitely see them as someone seeking power, who has reached out to an entity to grant him that power, that same entity who grants fragments of himself for you to use at your discretion so that you will never be beholden to others.

So yes i still really think it would be normal to encounter Warlocks with multiple elementals around them at all times.


they're not your soldiers, they're your family. this isn't a pact like with a shifter, this is an adoption, and because they recognize you as a brother (or sister, presuming they have any concept of gender), they grant you special abilities and actually may show up when you ask for help, in spite of the fact that the world you live in is uncomfortable and in spite of the fact that they have absolutely nothing to gain from what you are doing typically.

this even extends to other warlocks. seriously. read the OCC description. they "believe that one is either born a warlock, or not", they are "an order of practitioners of magic devoted to Elemental Forces", they "all share the same basic philosophy and all show great respect and courtesy to each other". to the point where if they're about to get into a fight they'll "first have a polite meeting to discuss the situation and proclaim each other's intentions", and then at the end if they can't reconcile they'll agree that they need to fight, go their separate ways, and only then will they fight, typically. and *after* telling each other they're going to be trying to kill each other in a while due to irreconcilable differences, they'll often "enjoy a meal together, shake hands or hug, and depart". it goes on later to say that "Elementals and Warlocks share a great kinship between each other, in a strange metaphysical way, and both always try to help each other. Both man and monster are uncommonly courteous and friendly toward each other, unless that Warlock is known as a cruel or destroying enslaver of Elementals. If the latter is the case, the Warlock is treated as if he were an enemy..." and "Of course, any Warlock worth the title, and desirous of the friendship of Elementals, should sincerely offer his aid to help an Elemental..."

it even goes on to particularly note: "Warlocks are aware that Elementals don't like to stay away from their home dimension" and describes that they will go out of their way to help elementals to return home if some other person is holding them if at all possible. even if the warlock is evil, they still consider other warlocks and elementals to be their brothers or sisters.


Nether wrote:This makes it sound like that just because you want to utilize the powers granted you, that somehow your going to be an aberrant personality and sacrifice them because your not attached to them.
Isn't that what alignment in this game is for? If you don't care about them and send them on sacrificial missions then your alignment should represent that, same as if you do care for them. But your not some guy living in your parents basement just living life, your someone that has gone greatly out of their way to seek power, so much so that your entire livelihood centers around it.

And if a GM doesn't like the Warlock sending his elementals on self destruct missions as you would put it, then he needs to reign in what he allows for alignments. But even good alignments are going to be putting elementals into the line of fire just like a military officer would be doing with personnel that he care about.


no, the GM who doesn't like the warlock sending his elementals on self destruct missions apparently knows more about the OCC than the person playing it. the description states that only a warlock who is "the foulest of the foul" would ever intentionally let an elemental die. because they're your brothers, and you don't do that to family.

you want to be someone who sends their minions off to die without a second thought? be a shifter. being a warlock comes with roleplaying restrictions. if you treat your brothers like slaves or cannon fodder, then you should expect to find them no longer treating *you* like a brother, because that's how the class works. you're not their master, you're their family, and you are expected to treat them like family, not like your slaves, your property, your servants, or your minions. it has absolutely zilch to do with your alignment. you can be evil all you like, the elementals sure don't care, but as a warlock you still don't treat elementals like expendable cannon fodder that exist to serve you. that is not how warlocks work, and if you don't want to roleplay being a warlock, then don't choose warlock for your class. if you were doing this on a regular basis, i would consider it completely fair for any GM to inflict in-character consequences ranging from losing your elemental link to being hunted down by other warlocks who are pissed about how you've been treating their family. and don't expect them to show the usual courtesy either, because you're not a warlock, you're foul scum that have been enslaving their family.

edit:

Axelmania wrote:Besides those ten golems, Earth Warlocks could also learn that Golemgoyle ritual from Merctown. No permanent sacrifices needed, just enslave a tectonic entity or something. Apparently the Noro make entities in their spare time so the universe has an unlimited supply.


warlocks don't actually know magic, they're granted it, so typically they can't learn any rituals unless it comes from their link to the elements. i suppose they could use scrolls that they buy from someone else though.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by kaid »

It is more correct to think of a warlock as an elemental priest than a standard spell caster. While they don't exactly worship the elements it is a lot more similar to how a priest obtains spells than a leyline walker. They don't study or learn other spells on their own.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nether »

Shark_Force wrote:
Nether wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:at any given time, i may develop a need for the help of someone in my family, or a close friend. that doesn't mean i monopolize their time constantly just in case i might need them, particularly if i insist on hanging out in places that make them feel extremely uncomfortable 99.99999% of the time.

that doesn't mean i won't call them up if i'm going to move and need some help with the big stuff. but i'm not going to expect them to hang around me at work all day doing nothing just in case i might suddenly need to move, and frankly i wouldn't even consider asking them to do so... they're my family, not my slaves. i try to be there when they need it, they try to be there when i need it, and we all try to be as self-sufficient as possible. the warlock is not a helpless child, they have elemental magic that is quite strong in addition to other skills and equipment.


A military leader / officer might make more sense to me than just some average joe. And to me, that's how your response comes across for the person your describing.

That means he will call them up if he needs stuff moved, and he does expect them to hang around a lot, especially at work all day doing nothing just in case the leader suddenly needs to move, and frankly he would expect them to do so... they're his to command, they're his family, not his slaves. They will be there when he needs it, and the leader is there when they need him, and they all try to be self sufficient as possible. The Warlock is not a helpless child, for he has invested in an entity greater than himself, not just for the power it brings him directly, but also for the soldiers such an entity offers to further him.

A military officer/commander probably values the life of his unit members and won't want to sacrifice them, but they very well knows that they might die in the path of his goal, whatever that may be.
He works with these people daily, and they do what he asks. Regardless of what he wants done, these men/women are his tools, even if friends, they will do what he orders them to do to achieve his goal.
He wants to most likely be around these people all the time, as they are also his friends / comrades, no matter where they are stationed, whether it be some hell pit or cold desolate barren.
When personnel can't handle being there any longer and request a transfer, how you handle that is dependent on whether your moral compass.

Your interpretation of what the Warlock is, is different than mine because I definitely see them as someone seeking power, who has reached out to an entity to grant him that power, that same entity who grants fragments of himself for you to use at your discretion so that you will never be beholden to others.

So yes i still really think it would be normal to encounter Warlocks with multiple elementals around them at all times.


they're not your soldiers, they're your family. this isn't a pact like with a shifter, this is an adoption, and because they recognize you as a brother (or sister, presuming they have any concept of gender), they grant you special abilities and actually may show up when you ask for help, in spite of the fact that the world you live in is uncomfortable and in spite of the fact that they have absolutely nothing to gain from what you are doing typically.

this even extends to other warlocks. seriously. read the OCC description. they "believe that one is either born a warlock, or not", they are "an order of practitioners of magic devoted to Elemental Forces", they "all share the same basic philosophy and all show great respect and courtesy to each other". to the point where if they're about to get into a fight they'll "first have a polite meeting to discuss the situation and proclaim each other's intentions", and then at the end if they can't reconcile they'll agree that they need to fight, go their separate ways, and only then will they fight, typically. and *after* telling each other they're going to be trying to kill each other in a while due to irreconcilable differences, they'll often "enjoy a meal together, shake hands or hug, and depart". it goes on later to say that "Elementals and Warlocks share a great kinship between each other, in a strange metaphysical way, and both always try to help each other. Both man and monster are uncommonly courteous and friendly toward each other, unless that Warlock is known as a cruel or destroying enslaver of Elementals. If the latter is the case, the Warlock is treated as if he were an enemy..." and "Of course, any Warlock worth the title, and desirous of the friendship of Elementals, should sincerely offer his aid to help an Elemental..."

it even goes on to particularly note: "Warlocks are aware that Elementals don't like to stay away from their home dimension" and describes that they will go out of their way to help elementals to return home if some other person is holding them if at all possible. even if the warlock is evil, they still consider other warlocks and elementals to be their brothers or sisters.


Nether wrote:This makes it sound like that just because you want to utilize the powers granted you, that somehow your going to be an aberrant personality and sacrifice them because your not attached to them.
Isn't that what alignment in this game is for? If you don't care about them and send them on sacrificial missions then your alignment should represent that, same as if you do care for them. But your not some guy living in your parents basement just living life, your someone that has gone greatly out of their way to seek power, so much so that your entire livelihood centers around it.

And if a GM doesn't like the Warlock sending his elementals on self destruct missions as you would put it, then he needs to reign in what he allows for alignments. But even good alignments are going to be putting elementals into the line of fire just like a military officer would be doing with personnel that he care about.


no, the GM who doesn't like the warlock sending his elementals on self destruct missions apparently knows more about the OCC than the person playing it. the description states that only a warlock who is "the foulest of the foul" would ever intentionally let an elemental die. because they're your brothers, and you don't do that to family.

you want to be someone who sends their minions off to die without a second thought? be a shifter. being a warlock comes with roleplaying restrictions. if you treat your brothers like slaves or cannon fodder, then you should expect to find them no longer treating *you* like a brother, because that's how the class works. you're not their master, you're their family, and you are expected to treat them like family, not like your slaves, your property, your servants, or your minions. it has absolutely zilch to do with your alignment. you can be evil all you like, the elementals sure don't care, but as a warlock you still don't treat elementals like expendable cannon fodder that exist to serve you. that is not how warlocks work, and if you don't want to roleplay being a warlock, then don't choose warlock for your class. if you were doing this on a regular basis, i would consider it completely fair for any GM to inflict in-character consequences ranging from losing your elemental link to being hunted down by other warlocks who are pissed about how you've been treating their family. and don't expect them to show the usual courtesy either, because you're not a warlock, you're foul scum that have been enslaving their family.

edit:

Axelmania wrote:Besides those ten golems, Earth Warlocks could also learn that Golemgoyle ritual from Merctown. No permanent sacrifices needed, just enslave a tectonic entity or something. Apparently the Noro make entities in their spare time so the universe has an unlimited supply.


warlocks don't actually know magic, they're granted it, so typically they can't learn any rituals unless it comes from their link to the elements. i suppose they could use scrolls that they buy from someone else though.

Fair enough.

As mentioned a lot of this is from memory as I've just retunred to the system after many years away some of my info is rusty as I just read over the initail character splat but not the additional info in the abilities.

View of family though might be looked up a bit differently in regards to the Warlock. NA family is much to how you described, they don't tend to see their immediate family all that often, and I would think the average person probably see's their parents once a month. Give or take for specific people.
South America family though, you see each other daily, even extended and it is very common to hang out with them like NA would with friends. You will commonly see many of them on the weekend for a bbq ext.

Adding that this is an OCC, Warlock is a job you love, which I also see similar to classic Mafia. Your family is elementals, and even though you care for them a lot and vice versa, even if it is not a comfortable environment and going off a SA family mentality, you would want to have that family around you and vice versa. Partly to balance that uncomfortability is also the comfort you take from being around that family. And like a mafia family, where family and job are mixed, I would think you are going to see elementals constantly around the Warlock.

If elementals love you like you love them, then it is a desirable presence on both sides. Now sure an elemental may not want to hang out very long and you let them go when the strain of the visit is becoming to much for them.

One impression I get in this thread is that anyone who suggests having elementals around you all the time they take it as if your automatically using them for suicide missions or abusing them which has never been said by me, and I don't think I've seen anyone say such either in this thread. Rifts is a dangerous place, and even if your not looking for it violence occurs which you may find your elemental friends are part of it.

I know you didn't respond with as much, but in case my earlier response was a bit to snarky, my appologies.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Eagle »

I see it differently. Nothing wrong with sending an elemental to its "death", because it doesn't really die. It just gets to go home. There's nothing to really indicate that they feel pain while they're here, so I don't have a problem with people using elementals in combat all the time.

I also don't have a problem with summoning multiple elementals at once, as long as you've got something you plan on doing with them. I know people who call up their cousins when they're re-roofing a house or doing something else that requires a lot of labor. Nobody likes roofing a house, but they'll come over to help because you need it. If my cousins were worth a crap, I'd do the same thing.

I would assume that a Warlock of decent level (4th, 5th) could have a single elemental around almost all the time. Each day, you try to summon one, and once you're successful you let the previous one go. That way no single elemental is around long enough to get mad. I'd probably let them do this without even rolling dice. But if you're getting ready for a mission or something, where you know you're going to need more of them, then you can try to get more than one, but you're going to have to roll it out (and role-play it out).

Saying that Warlocks and elementals see each other as "family" is probably too strong a statement. Elementals are willing to kill Warlocks, after all. I didn't murder my sister the last time her kid's stupid music recital drug on for hours and hours (and I really wanted to go home). And didn't some Warlocks bind elementals into weapons for the Tolkeen war? Obviously the family bonds ain't that strong.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Shark_Force »

i see my family regularly too (i see my parents or talk to them most days, i see at least 2 of my siblings once a week and often 3-4 times a week for hours, and regularly see my grandparents and some of my uncles or aunts at least once a week on average). i wouldn't constantly expect them to be around in an environment that they absolutely despise all the time, though. if i had to work at a garbage dump all day, i wouldn't ask my sister to come to the garbage dump and hang around with me just in case there's a job that needs another person. she doesn't want to be there, whether i'm there or not, and i know that. that's why i wouldn't ask my sister to do that. even though i enjoy my sister's company and i may otherwise see her on a regular basis. but again, if i know i'm about to need some extra help, yeah, i'll totally call my sister up and ask for some help. if my dad calls because he's having a hard time understanding how to use his computer, i'll do my best to lend a hand, sometimes coming over, sometimes trying to walk him through it over the phone (which is always a miserable experience).

and no, calling them family is not excessive. the book is quite clear that elementals regard you as being like their brother (or, i suppose, sister, though again i'm not entirely certain elementals can actually distinguish human genders or if they even fully grasp the concept of multiple genders at all).

and if you forced your sister to undergo something that is roughly like days of sleep deprivation... eventually, she may very well snap and decide to kill you. if you *force* your brother or sister to do something they hate day in day out for weeks on end, and no, not just ask, but *forcibly hold them in that situation*, then pretty soon they're not going to view you in the typical way you might view a brother or sister. so yeah, under normal circumstances, your siblings won't try to kill you. after you torture them for a few weeks, i wouldn't expect them to behave normally, and quite frankly, as noted, if you do torture your siblings for weeks on end, you are a horrible person, the worst of the worst.

if you need assistance at a moment's notice, you have the abilities and magic that come from being a warlock. within a few levels, you most likely have the ability to summon minor elementals using spell magic, meaning that within 3-5 seconds, you can probably have an elemental right there beside you to lend a hand (and otherwise help can be on the way within half an hour or so). unless you're doing something particularly unusual, that should generally be enough. you are not a helpless child. you shouldn't need your mommy to come into work to change your diaper, and you shouldn't be asking your daddy to beat up the kid that made fun of you in school. you can probably shoot lightning bolts powerful enough to destroy a tank or blanket a small village in fog so thick that you can barely see your hand in front of your face or something like that.

as to the specific mention of warlocks binding elementals into the constructs in the siege on tolkeen, well...

1) i wouldn't use those books as an example of what you should do for anything. in fact, while discussing the siege on tolkeen is about as close to a guaranteed flamewar as you can get on these boards, one thing both sides seem to think is that they were incredibly poorly written... it's just that they usually disagree on what the exact flaws are, depending mostly on whether they think the war should have gone more in tolkeen's favour or more in the CS's favour.

2) as i recall, that's a vague rumour as to how the constructs are made, not so much a clear statement. some people think there are bound elementals in there. personally, considering that should bloody well have caused a massive civil war in tolkeen as all the warlocks in the city go postal, i tend to presume it is not the case, but then again, i also prefer to ignore most the stuff that isn't left unspecified in those books as well, because damn those books are just a horrible mess.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Eagle »

Elementals don't have the same type of emotions as humans do. Nor do they have the same kind of reasoning that we have. They accept "this is what I must do" as sufficient explanation for anything. If an elemental has been tasked with guarding a place, and a warlock comes along and tries to enter, the book says the conversation will go something like this (paraphrased):

"Stop, warlock. I cannot let you enter."
"But there's something I need inside there."
"I still can't let you enter."
"But I must enter."
"So be it. Then I must destroy you."

I don't think the relationship between warlocks and elementals is touchy-feely at all. A warlock isn't going to summon them just to get him a coke from the refrigerator, but presumably the warlock thinks whatever it is he's doing is relatively important.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nether »

Shark_Force wrote:i see my family regularly too (i see my parents or talk to them most days, i see at least 2 of my siblings once a week and often 3-4 times a week for hours, and regularly see my grandparents and some of my uncles or aunts at least once a week on average). i wouldn't constantly expect them to be around in an environment that they absolutely despise all the time, though. if i had to work at a garbage dump all day, i wouldn't ask my sister to come to the garbage dump and hang around with me just in case there's a job that needs another person. she doesn't want to be there, whether i'm there or not, and i know that. that's why i wouldn't ask my sister to do that. even though i enjoy my sister's company and i may otherwise see her on a regular basis. but again, if i know i'm about to need some extra help, yeah, i'll totally call my sister up and ask for some help. if my dad calls because he's having a hard time understanding how to use his computer, i'll do my best to lend a hand, sometimes coming over, sometimes trying to walk him through it over the phone (which is always a miserable experience).

and no, calling them family is not excessive. the book is quite clear that elementals regard you as being like their brother (or, i suppose, sister, though again i'm not entirely certain elementals can actually distinguish human genders or if they even fully grasp the concept of multiple genders at all).

and if you forced your sister to undergo something that is roughly like days of sleep deprivation... eventually, she may very well snap and decide to kill you. if you *force* your brother or sister to do something they hate day in day out for weeks on end, and no, not just ask, but *forcibly hold them in that situation*, then pretty soon they're not going to view you in the typical way you might view a brother or sister. so yeah, under normal circumstances, your siblings won't try to kill you. after you torture them for a few weeks, i wouldn't expect them to behave normally, and quite frankly, as noted, if you do torture your siblings for weeks on end, you are a horrible person, the worst of the worst.

if you need assistance at a moment's notice, you have the abilities and magic that come from being a warlock. within a few levels, you most likely have the ability to summon minor elementals using spell magic, meaning that within 3-5 seconds, you can probably have an elemental right there beside you to lend a hand (and otherwise help can be on the way within half an hour or so). unless you're doing something particularly unusual, that should generally be enough. you are not a helpless child. you shouldn't need your mommy to come into work to change your diaper, and you shouldn't be asking your daddy to beat up the kid that made fun of you in school. you can probably shoot lightning bolts powerful enough to destroy a tank or blanket a small village in fog so thick that you can barely see your hand in front of your face or something like that.

as to the specific mention of warlocks binding elementals into the constructs in the siege on tolkeen, well...

1) i wouldn't use those books as an example of what you should do for anything. in fact, while discussing the siege on tolkeen is about as close to a guaranteed flamewar as you can get on these boards, one thing both sides seem to think is that they were incredibly poorly written... it's just that they usually disagree on what the exact flaws are, depending mostly on whether they think the war should have gone more in tolkeen's favour or more in the CS's favour.

2) as i recall, that's a vague rumour as to how the constructs are made, not so much a clear statement. some people think there are bound elementals in there. personally, considering that should bloody well have caused a massive civil war in tolkeen as all the warlocks in the city go postal, i tend to presume it is not the case, but then again, i also prefer to ignore most the stuff that isn't left unspecified in those books as well, because damn those books are just a horrible mess.

Brace yourself, I'm a bit windy here; and good points you make.

There has to be more to a Warlock OCC than just living life and occasionally summoning an elemental to come over and help him redo his roof, burn off his pile of trash, or shape out his basement. The family your describing isn't a family business, that is run by the head of the family, the Warlock.

The Warlock would be like the Don of the family, but the Overboss or whatever you want to call him would be the boss of bosses who oversee's all the families, and this would be like the Elemental AI.

Mafia is known as a very family oriented organization, where there immediate family is very important to them, as well as extended. These are the elementals because these are the people you trust and respect the most.

Part of doing your job as a Warlock is taking care of business and you utilize your family to further the family business, which is most likely crime related with a good possibilty of violence. This fits to represent the dangers inherent in Rifts.

When talking about business, your employees (elementals) which in this case is family, are there to further that family business.

Also calling on family only when you need something (aka summoning elementals) in my book is bad form. No one likes it when friends call them up just to ask for something.
If you don't have an elemental around very often because he's unconfortable then you would practically never talk to them, and when you call them to help you with something, you are probably not socializing with them. And I would think most didn't become a Warlock because they were bored, but for some driving reason to obtain power by researching and learning of Elemental entity and then reaching out to them to bond. I don't think it says it but I would imagine there is some type of negotiation there.

What I'm getting at is if I was a Warlock, I would think I have some overiding reasons why I chose this uncertain path, and then the elements I came to cherish like family, I would want to socialize with them, not just call them when I have work for them, because that is not family oriented, but I would also expect them to look out for the family and further it's goals, even if it's not that comfortable, because is it not selfish to put your individual comforts ahead of your families?
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Shark_Force »

again, this is not a boss/employee relationship. you can ask an elemental to do something (the summoning description even uses the word request, not order), and the elemental will probably do it for you if it can. whether you summoned it or not.

you are not running the elemental's business, you're doing your own thing (the description is pretty clear about that as well - pretty much all warlocks view each other and elementals as being siblings, but apart from that, a warlock can have pretty much any philosophy they please). and you live in a place that literally makes elementals angry enough to murder their siblings. if you want to have a chat, you should probably do it by some means other than summoning them into the maddening hellhole you happen to live in from their perspective. in fact, i would suspect that your link does allow some measure of communication. you are able to access magic and special abilities through it, you can use it to summon elementals... odds are good that you are, in fact, in some form of communication with your "family" at all times, particularly given that elementals seem to be able to identify you at a glance.

as far as what the elementals expect to get, i imagine it's an ally in the maddening hellhole you live in (from their perspective) that can help when some other jerkwad drags an elemental there to enslave it so that they don't have to send more elementals into your maddening hellhole, and apparently that's good enough for them because just about the only thing they seem to expect of warlocks is that they won't be abusive themselves. does that make sense to us? not really, but then, i'm not an alien being comprised purely of magical elemental forces, and i'm pretty sure you aren't either, so that's probably why. if you're a fire elemental warlock, there is no particular expectation that you're going to expand the fire elemental agenda beyond generally doing your best to free any elementals you come across, fire or otherwise. there does not appear to even be any sense of rivalry between elementals; fire elementals don't hate or fear water warlocks, air warlocks will help earth elementals they come across, and a wind/earth or fire/water warlock is totally a possibility (though not always a great idea unless you're some special RCC that gets access to the full spell list rather than the normal amount allowed). your fire elemental buddies don't expect you to burn anything unless you personally feel like it needs burning, your air elemental buddies don't think there's a shortage of storms, and your water elemental buddies are perfectly fine with you causing a drought on some village just so you can extort them for money, or just because they called you mean names, or just because you feel like making people suffer, even though that might suggest to our human perceptions that you are if anything hindering the cause of the elemental force of water in that area.

so yes, asking an elemental to hang around just because you feel like it is a dick move. now, if you're about to pass through an area of wilderness known to be filled with dangerous monsters that are beyond your ability as an individual to protect yourself from, then yeah, go ahead and call up an elemental. if you are a level 1 earth warlock and you suddenly need to build something, i would say it is totally reasonable to summon an earth elemental and ask them to make a solid foundation for you, or to turn a suit of wooden armour you've carved into ironwood, or if you're a fire warlock to summon a fire elemental to stockpile a bunch of fire globes that you can use for self defense (or even to sell to make a living), and so on. but not just to hang around in a place that drives them to a murderous rage just because you feel like it or because you might think of something for them to do.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Axelmania »

The whole "I must destroy you" thing is probably if they're already working for another warlock.

In the case of a Summoner, being compelled to destroy a friend usually gives you a new battle of wills with a bonus.

Shifters are trickier though, I don't think being ordered to kill friends gives any special bonus.

Then too, with Shifters, it's unclear how often you can have these contests to try and break free.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Eagle »

Axelmania wrote:The whole "I must destroy you" thing is probably if they're already working for another warlock.


Sure. But I don't care what job I had, I'm not murdering my brother. I think they see themselves more as members of a brotherhood. There's a kinship there and a mutual respect, but obviously it only goes so far.

Really all we're talking about is the right way to roleplay this. I don't think it's important to establish a rule that can be easily avoided by the player. Because all the player has to do is say something like "My character thinks this next thing he's about to do is really really important, so he's justified in keeping some elementals around."
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Eagle wrote:
Axelmania wrote:The whole "I must destroy you" thing is probably if they're already working for another warlock.


Sure. But I don't care what job I had, I'm not murdering my brother. I think they see themselves more as members of a brotherhood. There's a kinship there and a mutual respect, but obviously it only goes so far.

Really all we're talking about is the right way to roleplay this. I don't think it's important to establish a rule that can be easily avoided by the player. Because all the player has to do is say something like "My character thinks this next thing he's about to do is really really important, so he's justified in keeping some elementals around."


i'd like to point out elementals don't really die, so squishing the "Shell" of their warlock buddies may not be a big deal to them. It would be like killing your brother in a video game. Not necessarily so for the warlock but the elementals just return to energy forms and go home unless you kill their energy bodies.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Eagle wrote:Sure. But I don't care what job I had, I'm not murdering my brother. I think they see themselves more as members of a brotherhood. There's a kinship there and a mutual respect, but obviously it only goes so far.

Really all we're talking about is the right way to roleplay this. I don't think it's important to establish a rule that can be easily avoided by the player. Because all the player has to do is say something like "My character thinks this next thing he's about to do is really really important, so he's justified in keeping some elementals around."


again, you are not an alien being of pure magical elemental force. the fact that you don't think like an elemental is likely because you aren't an elemental.

and if the player keeps insisting the PC thinks it's important, that will probably eventually lead to getting his comeuppance once he spends some time around other warlocks who know better, even if the elementals don't.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Axelmania »

Nightmartree wrote:i'd like to point out elementals don't really die, so squishing the "Shell" of their warlock buddies may not be a big deal to them. It would be like killing your brother in a video game. Not necessarily so for the warlock but the elementals just return to energy forms and go home unless you kill their energy bodies.


RELEVANT
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Axelmania wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:i'd like to point out elementals don't really die, so squishing the "Shell" of their warlock buddies may not be a big deal to them. It would be like killing your brother in a video game. Not necessarily so for the warlock but the elementals just return to energy forms and go home unless you kill their energy bodies.


RELEVANT


ACCURATE

why get upset, your just going to the next dimension
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Shark_Force »

well, first off, elementals absolutely can die. it needs the warlock to release them to go home before they die if you want to avoid that.

secondly, with modern health care i could probably shoot you in both of your legs and you would not die. that doesn't mean the experience is going to be pleasant for you, or that there are no consequences, and if you as a family member are trivially sending your other family members off to be subjected to major harm purely on the basis that it (probably) won't kill them, then you are a horrible person.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Shark_Force wrote:well, first off, elementals absolutely can die. it needs the warlock to release them to go home before they die if you want to avoid that.

secondly, with modern health care i could probably shoot you in both of your legs and you would not die. that doesn't mean the experience is going to be pleasant for you, or that there are no consequences, and if you as a family member are trivially sending your other family members off to be subjected to major harm purely on the basis that it (probably) won't kill them, then you are a horrible person.


They are severed from our dimension and returned to their own unless specific means are used to kill them and NOT the physical shell they are inhabiting but the energy being that is the true form of the elemental.

In addition they have a limited range of emotions (so i'm not going to hurt their feelings asking for something) and I do not feel that they actually experience pain when their physical bodies ae harmed. They might but...do rocks have nerves?Fire?Air? So all around I feel that NO there is no problem with sending an elemental in a "Dangerous" situation because to them...it isn't. Now if you told me they had the equipment and knowledge of how to capture and kill the elementals SPIRT then I am NOT bringing them into this. I MIGHT summon some elemental fragments as those are a piece of an elemental and won't endanger their life if lost. I also wouldn't summon them and ask them to stick around for a while "just because" because I know they don't like it here and their feelings matter to me.

Shark_Force wrote:then you are a horrible person.


Yes i am, but that has nothing to do with asking an elemental to help me when as far as i know it feels no pain, has no dislike of the request, and is happy to help as long as i don't keep them in this world too long. Or do you have issues with doing painless quick tasks for your family when they ask?
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Shark_Force »

*sigh*

i see i'm going to have to refer you back to the book again. but seriously, this is getting tedious having to point out clearly stated facts that are actually found exactly where you'd expect them to be (which, granted, is nearly a miracle for PB, but miracle or not it is the case). if you have no idea what you're talking about, then why must you insist on continuing to talk about it as if you do?

RCB1r, p. 69, 'Summoning Note Number One'
"Only a Warlock who is the foulest of the foul would ever intentionally allow an Elemental brother he summoned to die. [snip] One means of preservation is to release the Elemental from its summoning bondage. With the words, "I release you", the Elemental instantly disappears..."

so here we have a very clear statement that elementals can die if you don't release them, and how it is done.

later in the class description, the fact that an elemental can die or be destroyed as a result of carelessness is repeated. twice. so no, they don't just get booted back to their home dimension. you have to release them before they die.

additionally, elementals are not emotionless, nor are they impervious to pain, nor are they ordinary elemental material. they are alien. not in the "little green man from mars" sense, but in the sense that they are vastly different from us, just like we are (probably) incomprehensible to ants. furthermore, by virtue of the fact that being in our world drives them to murder people that they ordinarily show great respect for and concern for the well-being of, i am disinclined to describe any service that involves them coming to whichever world you happen to be in that isn't their home as minor or not causing inconvenience.

now again, if you're about to cross through bandit-infested wilderness where everyone that passes through the area faces robbers on a regular basis, then yeah, call up your elemental friends and ask for some help. but most of the time, as someone who is supposed to care for their well-being and respect them, you should leave them be, not just have them hanging around all the time.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Prysus »

Shark_Force wrote:RCB1r, p. 69, 'Summoning Note Number One'
"Only a Warlock who is the foulest of the foul would ever intentionally allow an Elemental brother he summoned to die. [snip] One means of preservation is to release the Elemental from its summoning bondage. With the words, "I release you", the Elemental instantly disappears..."

so here we have a very clear statement that elementals can die if you don't release them, and how it is done.

later in the class description, the fact that an elemental can die or be destroyed as a result of carelessness is repeated. twice. so no, they don't just get booted back to their home dimension. you have to release them before they die.

Greetings and Salutations. In general, I agree with you. However, I will point out something that goes against your concept. Dragons & Gods, page 55, under The Elemental Intelligence.

"When the physical form it takes is destroyed, the essence portion survives and automatically returns to its own dimension and reforms with the larger whole. Destruction of the physical body and subsequent return to its own dimension also breaks any hold that a practitioner of magic may have had over the creature."

That section is discussing Major Elementals (which is half the Elemental Intelligence's essence). The next paragraph then mentions additional essences include a number of the Warlock spells that summon fragments (we can surmise this should include all, since they mention warlock spells and then give examples but the examples need not be the entire list). Minor Elementals aren't mentioned in this section. So they could be an in-between that's we're supposed to figure is included by default, or they could be something else.

So they spend sections talking about how you shouldn't let an Elemental essence die, and then in one book in just two paragraphs they make most of that dialogue meaningless and say that Elementals can't actually die in any meaningful way. Even in Dragons & Gods, on page 52, they have lines like: "Elementals cannot comprehend the meaning of death ... What they do not understand is that sometimes, when one of their kind visits (or is forced to visit) other dimensions they do not come back." So they take the time to say how sad this is, but then a few pages later state how they don't really die in other dimensions.

We're told they can die by magic and conventional means, but not the specifics. I'd suspect this has to do with at least in part things like Rune Weapons, and possibly things done during the Elf-Dwarf War (like the Circle of Elemental Power, or whatever it's name was). However, we're left largely guessing if we take the statements on page 55 as true.

On page of 52 of D&G we're told Elementals do not feel "hate, love, friendship, jealousy, ambition, or regret." They DO feel "anger and experience a sort of compassion, kindness, and peace with their own kind or among nature." When Elementals don't return to their dimension, this does anger them (this is clearly stated). Also, if they can understand compassion and kindness, this indicates they'd be able to understand if these are not being shown to them.

On an additional note, the Elemental Intelligence section this is "much like" fragmenting as Vampire Intelligences and other supernatural intelligences. If we look at D&G, page 72, we're told that the Intelligence can't recover the H.P. it gives to the essence until it's returned. If the physical body is destroyed, that damage can't be recovered for 24 hours.

So if the Major Elemental is half the Intelligence essence, then you wouldn't be able to summon more than one Major Elemental at a time, unless you're linked to more than one Elemental Intelligence (summoning two halves of the Elemental Intelligence would mean you have the Elemental Intelligence, and as far as I'm aware you can't summon the Intelligence). Also, by keeping a Major Elemental around, you'd be weakening the Intelligence severely. Luckily, they don't seem to combat in their natural dimension, so this probably isn't much danger to the Intelligence. This doesn't mean the Intelligence will be happy about it. If I borrow you something of mine and you break it because you don't value it, whether or not I can repair what you broke doesn't mean I'm going to keep borrowing you my stuff.

More so, there's a line about breaking the control the Practitioner of Magic had over the Elemental. Now this could only apply to those like Shifters and Summoners, but it may also apply to the likes of a Warlock. The Warlock can control and command them. So, depending on interpretation, if the Warlock starts letting his elementals be slain, then he may lose his connection to the Intelligence. If so, that could possibly mean no more Warlock abilities and spells.

Of course, some of this is considering you're only linked to one Elemental Intelligence and not many. We don't really have specifics on this either.

All right, that should be all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Shark_Force wrote:*sigh*

i see i'm going to have to refer you back to the book again. but seriously, this is getting tedious having to point out clearly stated facts that are actually found exactly where you'd expect them to be (which, granted, is nearly a miracle for PB, but miracle or not it is the case). if you have no idea what you're talking about, then why must you insist on continuing to talk about it as if you do?

RCB1r, p. 69, 'Summoning Note Number One'
"Only a Warlock who is the foulest of the foul would ever intentionally allow an Elemental brother he summoned to die. [snip] One means of preservation is to release the Elemental from its summoning bondage. With the words, "I release you", the Elemental instantly disappears..."

so here we have a very clear statement that elementals can die if you don't release them, and how it is done.

later in the class description, the fact that an elemental can die or be destroyed as a result of carelessness is repeated. twice. so no, they don't just get booted back to their home dimension. you have to release them before they die.

additionally, elementals are not emotionless, nor are they impervious to pain, nor are they ordinary elemental material. they are alien. not in the "little green man from mars" sense, but in the sense that they are vastly different from us, just like we are (probably) incomprehensible to ants. furthermore, by virtue of the fact that being in our world drives them to murder people that they ordinarily show great respect for and concern for the well-being of, i am disinclined to describe any service that involves them coming to whichever world you happen to be in that isn't their home as minor or not causing inconvenience.

now again, if you're about to cross through bandit-infested wilderness where everyone that passes through the area faces robbers on a regular basis, then yeah, call up your elemental friends and ask for some help. but most of the time, as someone who is supposed to care for their well-being and respect them, you should leave them be, not just have them hanging around all the time.


I can in return refer you to the descriptions of elementals in CB1 (non-r) and Dark Conversions where it is clearly stated in multiple places that elementals only die if they are grounded while in energy form, a state we rarely ever encounter them in as they ussually immediatly enter a physical shell, and are then instantly returned to their home dimension on destruction of said shell (i assume instant, palladium doesn't provide a time frame).

It is frequently stressed just how ALIEN they are, to the point where it clearly states that most HUMAN emotions just don't apply, elementals have pretty much two emotions from the descriptions in BOTH DC and CB1, those two are anger, and a sort of compassion/peace when around their fellows or nature. Thats the entire sum of stated emotion for elemental, they don't even feel curiosity or fear, no mention of emotional pain or upset, only anger. They can be calm and compassionate to their fellows, or full of wrath. This is why if anything upsets an elemental, such as being kept too long, they kill you because they're angry. It happens all the time among humans and we are way more complex (in our way) than an elemental.

You go to such an extent to say they are alien, but then try to humanize them. How do you know they feel pain? or what pain even is to them? your hitting a shell they have cobbled together from nature, i can see that making them angry, but does it mean they fell pain? The only reason we consider pain as "Bad" is because it is a sign we have been injured, hurt, damaged. Its a warning system from us that we are in danger...and that just doesn't apply to an elementals body. Its something they stuck together to stay inside while they visit us, your not damaging the energy being inside when it gets broken (not according to any rule i've found).

And i've already stated i wouldn't wanna keep them around long term because that is upsetting to them and i do care what they feel. Its like upsetting a puppy, the puppy doesn't know why your doing it, its just sad. Your trying to say i'm being a bad guy when all i've pointed out is that much of what people would call abuse, an elemental could care less about, and that what a lot of people don't consider too big a deal (summoning one or two for daily help) is just as bad as summoning them to go into a war zone.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Eagle »

So, I'm just going to quote from the book about the Elemental being "angry" about being here.

Once summoned, the warlock is able to request the elemental to aid him in battle or any activity for an unlimited length of time. However, the elemental will want to go back to its own world after a day or two. Only the summoning warlock can release it to return to its own dimension. The elemental will become increasingly insistent about being released with the passing of each day. This will quickly change to anger and hostility at an accumulative rate of 12% per week. The usual etiquette between elemental and warlock is lost when pressed into slavery and the percentage indicates the degree of its hostility and the likelihood of it killing the warlock (roll once for every week that passes). If the roll is under the hostility percentage, the elemental will be angry enough to kill the warlock. HOWEVER, it will first warn the warlock that it will kill him if he does not release it, now!


Rifts Conversion Book 1, page 61

So, according to the book, he only starts wanting to go back after a day or two. So unlike what Shark Force says in one of his posts above (about the human world being a "maddening hellhole"), actually Elementals seem to be content to stay in our world, as long as it is for a short period of time. After a day or two, it wants to go home. Then it becomes insistent about wanting go home, increasing with each passing day. So at 4 or 5 days, the Elemental really wants to go home. It is getting more insistent, but it hasn't gotten mad yet. It's starts getting really mad at 12% per week. As I read it, that means the Elemental doesn't REALLY get angry until the first week has passed.

Out of curiosity, I went to http://www.roll-dice-online.com/ and rolled D100 five times (52, 31, 55, 87, 93). With a cumulative 12% chance (12% week one, 24% week two, 36% week three, etc), I never rolled below the number. Apparently that particular Elemental was just a really chill dude. That's five weeks he would have stayed. According to the description in the book, he's insistent about going home, and he's getting angry, but he's not fully angry yet. It's like me when my wife's relatives come to visit. I slowly get angry when they don't leave, but as long as they go before I blow a gasket and cause a scene, no problem.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Mack »

Eagle wrote:Out of curiosity, I went to http://www.roll-dice-online.com/ and rolled D100 five times (52, 31, 55, 87, 93). With a cumulative 12% chance (12% week one, 24% week two, 36% week three, etc), I never rolled below the number. Apparently that particular Elemental was just a really chill dude.


A very chill dude. There's only a 8.9% chance of making those five rolls.
(And if you go to six weeks it drops to only a 2.5% chance.)
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Prysus »

Eagle wrote:According to the description in the book, he's insistent about going home, and he's getting angry, but he's not fully angry yet. It's like me when my wife's relatives come to visit. I slowly get angry when they don't leave, but as long as they go before I blow a gasket and cause a scene, no problem.

Greetings and Salutations. Unless your relatives are literally forcing you into "slavery" (the book's term on the section you quoted) every time they visit, not really an accurate description. But yes, Elementals are rather chill about it.

Also, game mechanics can't accurately translate much of the situation. For now, I'll stick with your relative scenario.

So you're about to blow your gasket and the relatives leave. All is good, right? So when they return a couple days later (as has been suggested is totally fine by some in this thread), are you going to be totally okay or will you blow your gasket almost immediately? I'd be of the latter personally.

And the relatives visiting or staying because of some event might be okay, what about when there's no real reason to be there, but they just want to mooch off you and maybe, eventually, they'll want to do something, but not yet, maybe later, maybe not at all. How much quicker will you blow your gasket when they're being genuinely ingrates because they think its your responsibility to take care of them. Why do they have to be there? Cuz.

How quickly you'd blow your gasket probably depends a lot of on the situation. The game mechanics don't take all of that into consideration. Also, again, let's not forget this is actually enslaving an Elemental. They're really cool about it for a day or two because they don't mind helping you out, but that doesn't mean that one should abuse the privilege.

Now not everyone in this thread hss suggested keeping an Elemental around until it hits a murderous rage or forcing them around you nonstop because you may need them later, but some have. Anyways, just wanted to expand on that a bit. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Eagle wrote:So, I'm just going to quote from the book about the Elemental being "angry" about being here.

Once summoned, the warlock is able to request the elemental to aid him in battle or any activity for an unlimited length of time. However, the elemental will want to go back to its own world after a day or two. Only the summoning warlock can release it to return to its own dimension. The elemental will become increasingly insistent about being released with the passing of each day. This will quickly change to anger and hostility at an accumulative rate of 12% per week. The usual etiquette between elemental and warlock is lost when pressed into slavery and the percentage indicates the degree of its hostility and the likelihood of it killing the warlock (roll once for every week that passes). If the roll is under the hostility percentage, the elemental will be angry enough to kill the warlock. HOWEVER, it will first warn the warlock that it will kill him if he does not release it, now!


Rifts Conversion Book 1, page 61

So, according to the book, he only starts wanting to go back after a day or two. So unlike what Shark Force says in one of his posts above (about the human world being a "maddening hellhole"), actually Elementals seem to be content to stay in our world, as long as it is for a short period of time. After a day or two, it wants to go home. Then it becomes insistent about wanting go home, increasing with each passing day. So at 4 or 5 days, the Elemental really wants to go home. It is getting more insistent, but it hasn't gotten mad yet. It's starts getting really mad at 12% per week. As I read it, that means the Elemental doesn't REALLY get angry until the first week has passed.

Out of curiosity, I went to http://www.roll-dice-online.com/ and rolled D100 five times (52, 31, 55, 87, 93). With a cumulative 12% chance (12% week one, 24% week two, 36% week three, etc), I never rolled below the number. Apparently that particular Elemental was just a really chill dude. That's five weeks he would have stayed. According to the description in the book, he's insistent about going home, and he's getting angry, but he's not fully angry yet. It's like me when my wife's relatives come to visit. I slowly get angry when they don't leave, but as long as they go before I blow a gasket and cause a scene, no problem.


in a single week, it can turn a creature from gladly doing danged near anything for you, to a murderous rage.

frankly, i'm confident the phrase gets used to describe all kinds of environments that don't transform people from cheerful, polite, and helpful to being willing to commit murder of their family to escape in anywhere near that short of an amount of time. for example, i think it would be entirely appropriate to describe various war situations as "maddening hellholes", and yet i bet you would find that the number of soldiers who became filled with murderous rage to the point they would kill someone they consider their brother just to get out of the situation is, in fact, far less than 12% of the total number of soldiers per week. not to downplay PTSD or anything, of course, it's a serious problem, but we're comparing it to something that will incite something to murder, guaranteed, in 9 weeks or less.

so, yeah. it is more of a maddening hellhole to an elemental than WWI trench warfare is to a human. i'd say that's pretty deserving of the title, personally.

as to the elementals being unable to die thing, if the book disagrees with itself, and other sources agree with only one of the positions in the book, i'd say you should ignore the parts of the book that disagree with everything else in the setting.

(oh, and also, the elementals that warlocks summon with spells are minor elementals, or at least, that is what the available evidence suggests. maybe other things are too, that isn't specified. if you wish to refer to the things that warlocks summon with a ritual, there are greater and lesser elementals). additionally, while it appears that some of the smaller types of elementals are fragments, summoning note number 2 in RCB1r mentions that warlock spells can be used to summon minor elementals and fragmented essence of elemental intelligences... as in, they aren't inherently the same thing, and everything smaller than an elemental intelligence is not necessarily a fragment of an intelligence).
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Shark_Force wrote:in a single week, it can turn a creature from gladly doing danged near anything for you, to a murderous rage.

so, yeah. it is more of a maddening hellhole to an elemental than WWI trench warfare is to a human. i'd say that's pretty deserving of the title, personally.

as to the elementals being unable to die thing, if the book disagrees with itself, and other sources agree with only one of the positions in the book, i'd say you should ignore the parts of the book that disagree with everything else in the setting.


the creature has 2 emotional states, and they aren't human. I mean, if you only had 2 emotions, happy and then angry, and every time your not happy your angry...how often would you be enraged a day man? I don't know about you but there have been times in my life I've HAD to get away from family before i lost it, and an elemental can't walk away.

and funnily enough numerous places in separate printings and books say a elemental can die and by conventional and magical means, but even more sources say that elementals when they lose their physical bodies just go home. They do offer up the method to permanently kill an elemental spirit, but there is no saying how or why an elemental would be in this form, how to make them assume it, or anything else about it besides the fact that apparently its instant death (the elemental gets no save, no resist, nothing) and that it does 1d6x100 MD to everything in range of the resulting explosion. This is the only way they say you can kill an elemental permanently according to the books, plural. Both dark conversions and the conversion book 1 say the same things elementals can die to conventional and magical means, elementals return to their home plane when their bodies die, and if you wanna permanently kill these energy beings perform X action. (which i have avoided stating cause i feel its information that should not be spread...ya i know its just a character in an rpg but...elementals are innocent ya know?). I mean from our side it is death, their bodies cease to function and their spirit returns to another dimension. It however like the multiple lives power (but better!) means the "death" just doesn't stick.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Axelmania »

Shark_Force wrote:well, first off, elementals absolutely can die.

This based on CB revised 69's "including fighting to the death" under 12.? 70 also suggests the "senses its destruction" guideline for those set to guard.

Page 106 of Dark Conversions reiterates that elementals cannot fathom the meaning of death. The point isn't whether or not they die, but whether or not they fathom it. There would be no bonus to break free in situations deadly to you if you don't perceive it as being deadly, one would think.

DC 109 under Vulnerabilities 2: "The destruction of the physical body breaks its link o the material world and sends it instantly to its own dimension"

So they basically can only be killed outside their home dimension when they are in energy form, which happens before they create a body of elements or possess a being.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmartree wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:in a single week, it can turn a creature from gladly doing danged near anything for you, to a murderous rage.

so, yeah. it is more of a maddening hellhole to an elemental than WWI trench warfare is to a human. i'd say that's pretty deserving of the title, personally.

as to the elementals being unable to die thing, if the book disagrees with itself, and other sources agree with only one of the positions in the book, i'd say you should ignore the parts of the book that disagree with everything else in the setting.


the creature has 2 emotional states, and they aren't human. I mean, if you only had 2 emotions, happy and then angry, and every time your not happy your angry...how often would you be enraged a day man? I don't know about you but there have been times in my life I've HAD to get away from family before i lost it, and an elemental can't walk away.

Ummm that is not supported by the books.
The books don't say that they only have 2 emotional states.
The books say tell us that they have at LEAST three/four murderous rage and "all other states that are not murderous rage" of which 'angry' and 'frusterated' are described. They are also described as I recall as having curiosity of a sort.
Basically they have their own emotional spectrum. And at the far end of that spectrum is "murderous rage in which you will violate even the deepest societal norms and murder family"

Nightmartree wrote:and funnily enough numerous places in separate printings and books say a elemental can die and by conventional and magical means, but even more sources say that elementals when they lose their physical bodies just go home. They do offer up the method to permanently kill an elemental spirit, but there is no saying how or why an elemental would be in this form, how to make them assume it, or anything else about it besides the fact that apparently its instant death (the elemental gets no save, no resist, nothing) and that it does 1d6x100 MD to everything in range of the resulting explosion. This is the only way they say you can kill an elemental permanently according to the books, plural. Both dark conversions and the conversion book 1 say the same things elementals can die to conventional and magical means, elementals return to their home plane when their bodies die, and if you wanna permanently kill these energy beings perform X action. (which i have avoided stating cause i feel its information that should not be spread...ya i know its just a character in an rpg but...elementals are innocent ya know?). I mean from our side it is death, their bodies cease to function and their spirit returns to another dimension. It however like the multiple lives power (but better!) means the "death" just doesn't stick.

However the specific power used to summon the elemental explicitly states that the elemental can die if the warlock is not careful.
This pretty clearly demonstrates that either returning is not an 'always' thing or that something about the summoning process makes them vulnerable to death.
The fact of the matter is that we have material that seems on the face of it to be mutually contradictory...
...but really isnt if you think about it. An elemental that enters the world via a rift or other 'natural' method would seem to be immortal. But something about the summoning process makes them vulnerable to being killed.
Otherwise we are in the position of having to disregard 50% of the material on elementals
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

eliakon wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:in a single week, it can turn a creature from gladly doing danged near anything for you, to a murderous rage.

so, yeah. it is more of a maddening hellhole to an elemental than WWI trench warfare is to a human. i'd say that's pretty deserving of the title, personally.

as to the elementals being unable to die thing, if the book disagrees with itself, and other sources agree with only one of the positions in the book, i'd say you should ignore the parts of the book that disagree with everything else in the setting.


the creature has 2 emotional states, and they aren't human. I mean, if you only had 2 emotions, happy and then angry, and every time your not happy your angry...how often would you be enraged a day man? I don't know about you but there have been times in my life I've HAD to get away from family before i lost it, and an elemental can't walk away.

Ummm that is not supported by the books.
The books don't say that they only have 2 emotional states.
The books say tell us that they have at LEAST three/four murderous rage and "all other states that are not murderous rage" of which 'angry' and 'frusterated' are described. They are also described as I recall as having curiosity of a sort.
Basically they have their own emotional spectrum. And at the far end of that spectrum is "murderous rage in which you will violate even the deepest societal norms and murder family"

Nightmartree wrote:and funnily enough numerous places in separate printings and books say a elemental can die and by conventional and magical means, but even more sources say that elementals when they lose their physical bodies just go home. They do offer up the method to permanently kill an elemental spirit, but there is no saying how or why an elemental would be in this form, how to make them assume it, or anything else about it besides the fact that apparently its instant death (the elemental gets no save, no resist, nothing) and that it does 1d6x100 MD to everything in range of the resulting explosion. This is the only way they say you can kill an elemental permanently according to the books, plural. Both dark conversions and the conversion book 1 say the same things elementals can die to conventional and magical means, elementals return to their home plane when their bodies die, and if you wanna permanently kill these energy beings perform X action. (which i have avoided stating cause i feel its information that should not be spread...ya i know its just a character in an rpg but...elementals are innocent ya know?). I mean from our side it is death, their bodies cease to function and their spirit returns to another dimension. It however like the multiple lives power (but better!) means the "death" just doesn't stick.

However the specific power used to summon the elemental explicitly states that the elemental can die if the warlock is not careful.
This pretty clearly demonstrates that either returning is not an 'always' thing or that something about the summoning process makes them vulnerable to death.
The fact of the matter is that we have material that seems on the face of it to be mutually contradictory...
...but really isnt if you think about it. An elemental that enters the world via a rift or other 'natural' method would seem to be immortal. But something about the summoning process makes them vulnerable to being killed.
Otherwise we are in the position of having to disregard 50% of the material on elementals


They are either angry (includes frustrated/murderous/angry) or a mix of content/happy according to the book, that's 2 to me.

And now your adding more to whats there than the book says, and they can die, a warlock won't allow them to do so if they can stop it. The book even tells us how, and likely the book meant to say warlocks won't let the elementals "die" and lose their bodies, but that the actual elementals essence will survive. Not that it bothers to clarify, and honestly was probably trying to show the "relationship" between elementals and warlock while limiting the class to not have fearless juggernauts willing to "die" for them...when thats pretty much what ever other bit of information makes elementals out to be.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Nightmartree wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:in a single week, it can turn a creature from gladly doing danged near anything for you, to a murderous rage.

so, yeah. it is more of a maddening hellhole to an elemental than WWI trench warfare is to a human. i'd say that's pretty deserving of the title, personally.

as to the elementals being unable to die thing, if the book disagrees with itself, and other sources agree with only one of the positions in the book, i'd say you should ignore the parts of the book that disagree with everything else in the setting.


the creature has 2 emotional states, and they aren't human. I mean, if you only had 2 emotions, happy and then angry, and every time your not happy your angry...how often would you be enraged a day man? I don't know about you but there have been times in my life I've HAD to get away from family before i lost it, and an elemental can't walk away.

Ummm that is not supported by the books.
The books don't say that they only have 2 emotional states.
The books say tell us that they have at LEAST three/four murderous rage and "all other states that are not murderous rage" of which 'angry' and 'frusterated' are described. They are also described as I recall as having curiosity of a sort.
Basically they have their own emotional spectrum. And at the far end of that spectrum is "murderous rage in which you will violate even the deepest societal norms and murder family"

Nightmartree wrote:and funnily enough numerous places in separate printings and books say a elemental can die and by conventional and magical means, but even more sources say that elementals when they lose their physical bodies just go home. They do offer up the method to permanently kill an elemental spirit, but there is no saying how or why an elemental would be in this form, how to make them assume it, or anything else about it besides the fact that apparently its instant death (the elemental gets no save, no resist, nothing) and that it does 1d6x100 MD to everything in range of the resulting explosion. This is the only way they say you can kill an elemental permanently according to the books, plural. Both dark conversions and the conversion book 1 say the same things elementals can die to conventional and magical means, elementals return to their home plane when their bodies die, and if you wanna permanently kill these energy beings perform X action. (which i have avoided stating cause i feel its information that should not be spread...ya i know its just a character in an rpg but...elementals are innocent ya know?). I mean from our side it is death, their bodies cease to function and their spirit returns to another dimension. It however like the multiple lives power (but better!) means the "death" just doesn't stick.

However the specific power used to summon the elemental explicitly states that the elemental can die if the warlock is not careful.
This pretty clearly demonstrates that either returning is not an 'always' thing or that something about the summoning process makes them vulnerable to death.
The fact of the matter is that we have material that seems on the face of it to be mutually contradictory...
...but really isnt if you think about it. An elemental that enters the world via a rift or other 'natural' method would seem to be immortal. But something about the summoning process makes them vulnerable to being killed.
Otherwise we are in the position of having to disregard 50% of the material on elementals


They are either angry (includes frustrated/murderous/angry) or a mix of content/happy according to the book, that's 2 to me.

And now your adding more to whats there than the book says, and they can die, a warlock won't allow them to do so if they can stop it. The book even tells us how, and likely the book meant to say warlocks won't let the elementals "die" and lose their bodies, but that the actual elementals essence will survive. Not that it bothers to clarify, and honestly was probably trying to show the "relationship" between elementals and warlock while limiting the class to not have fearless juggernauts willing to "die" for them...when thats pretty much what ever other bit of information makes elementals out to be.

Wow remind me to never let anyone around you who may just be annoying since it equates to cause for murder.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmartree wrote:They are either angry (includes frustrated/murderous/angry) or a mix of content/happy according to the book, that's 2 to me.

Can you provide a book and page that says this?
Not that these two exist, but that these are the only ones?
Never mind that even by this it has three. Happy, angry (send me home brother), and murderous.
And of course that requires a book statement that all states besides their angry state are always happy ones... which I am curious to see where this is stated in canon.


Nightmartree wrote:
And now your adding more to whats there than the book says, and they can die, a warlock won't allow them to do so if they can stop it. The book even tells us how, and likely the book meant to say warlocks won't let the elementals "die" and lose their bodies, but that the actual elementals essence will survive. Not that it bothers to clarify, and honestly was probably trying to show the "relationship" between elementals and warlock while limiting the class to not have fearless juggernauts willing to "die" for them...when thats pretty much what ever other bit of information makes elementals out to be.

I'm not "adding" anything.
I am pointing out that we have dueling canon here.
There is canon that says that they can not die and there is canon that says that they can die.
Simply arguing that one canon is better than the other canon is fruitless unless there is a specific statement in a book that says that the one trumps the other.
I will also point out that the book does not say "loose their bodies" or "be sent back" but it uses the word "die" explicitly. Thus the claim that the book did not mean die is rather far fetched.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Zer0 Kay wrote:Wow remind me to never let anyone around you who may just be annoying since it equates to cause for murder.

If I could just go home at the end of the day to a better happier place? Sure, why should I care if they die or not? that's pretty much the attitude of elementals, suicide bombers and me if I had a nice afterlife to go to and nothing in this plane to keep me busy.

fortunately for the rest of the world I like to read and I can't get the next book if I go on a murder spree, the only reason people don't kill other people more is A) too much work B) social contract, basically you don't kill me I won't kill you and C) people group together and retaliation from the group wards off enemies- this last one is why we are in things called countries that fight other groups called countries and kill each other when we can so we can take the stuff we want from the others land and wealth.
eliakon wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:They are either angry (includes frustrated/murderous/angry) or a mix of content/happy according to the book, that's 2 to me.

Can you provide a book and page that says this?
Not that these two exist, but that these are the only ones?
Never mind that even by this it has three. Happy, angry (send me home brother), and murderous.
And of course that requires a book statement that all states besides their angry state are always happy ones... which I am curious to see where this is stated in canon.


Nightmartree wrote:
And now your adding more to whats there than the book says, and they can die, a warlock won't allow them to do so if they can stop it. The book even tells us how, and likely the book meant to say warlocks won't let the elementals "die" and lose their bodies, but that the actual elementals essence will survive. Not that it bothers to clarify, and honestly was probably trying to show the "relationship" between elementals and warlock while limiting the class to not have fearless juggernauts willing to "die" for them...when thats pretty much what ever other bit of information makes elementals out to be.

I'm not "adding" anything.
I am pointing out that we have dueling canon here.
There is canon that says that they can not die and there is canon that says that they can die.
Simply arguing that one canon is better than the other canon is fruitless unless there is a specific statement in a book that says that the one trumps the other.
I will also point out that the book does not say "loose their bodies" or "be sent back" but it uses the word "die" explicitly. Thus the claim that the book did not mean die is rather far fetched.


Its in the bit part where they discuss the emotional states of elementals (Conversion Book 1, and Dark Conversions both). I believe it was in both written elemental sections at one point or another, the starting part that covers elementals in general. They state that the elemental has two emotional states, I may be over generalizing but they're either upset which is on a fast track to murderous, or they're happy/content. And the adding part is referring to the idea that the warlock summoning diminishes them to mortal. When if anything its the more natural of the two kinds of summoning.

And as for the death bit, the book also says they don't die unless you do XY and Z. Now this does mean that they can die, but it seems in conflict with the implied representation at several points that they can be "killed" by normal attacks, which is never clearly stated except in a class that SHOULD be highly interlinked with them but states something in contrast to the racial characteristics of elementals. It would be like getting a demon summoner class and then being told demons are sdc beings in rifts. The point I was trying to make originally though was A) it was probably someone trying to limit the warlock class and B) there is 2 kinds of death a warlock could suffer, physical which simply sends them home (as far as we know) and true, which almost never happens and requires a specific circumstance.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmartree wrote:Its in the bit part where they discuss the emotional states of elementals (Conversion Book 1, and Dark Conversions both). I believe it was in both written elemental sections at one point or another, the starting part that covers elementals in general. They state that the elemental has two emotional states, I may be over generalizing but they're either upset which is on a fast track to murderous, or they're happy/content. And the adding part is referring to the idea that the warlock summoning diminishes them to mortal. When if anything its the more natural of the two kinds of summoning.

Your doing more than just "over generalizing" your putting words in the mouth of the author.
There is not statement at all whatsoever about their number or range of emotions.
The claim that there are only two states is therefor totally unsupported as far as I can tell.
Which is obvious since I have demonstrated that they have no less than three...
So I ask again, do you have actual in book stance for this, or is your claim of the binary emotional state simply your personal headcanon. Because with out some actual in text support for the claim... well it is not verifiably true and most CERTAINLY not canon.

Nightmartree wrote:And as for the death bit, the book also says they don't die unless you do XY and Z. Now this does mean that they can die, but it seems in conflict with the implied representation at several points that they can be "killed" by normal attacks, which is never clearly stated except in a class that SHOULD be highly interlinked with them but states something in contrast to the racial characteristics of elementals. It would be like getting a demon summoner class and then being told demons are sdc beings in rifts. The point I was trying to make originally though was A) it was probably someone trying to limit the warlock class and B) there is 2 kinds of death a warlock could suffer, physical which simply sends them home (as far as we know) and true, which almost never happens and requires a specific circumstance.

And again your cherry picking. The point that we are making is not that the book doesnt say what it says.
The point is that there are OTHER places in the books where this is contradicted.
That means that yes, your right they say this in a book. BUT that it is mutually exclusive with another part of canon.
Simply repeating the same thing over and over again does nothing to resolve this contradition.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Nightmartree »

eliakon wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:Its in the bit part where they discuss the emotional states of elementals (Conversion Book 1, and Dark Conversions both). I believe it was in both written elemental sections at one point or another, the starting part that covers elementals in general. They state that the elemental has two emotional states, I may be over generalizing but they're either upset which is on a fast track to murderous, or they're happy/content. And the adding part is referring to the idea that the warlock summoning diminishes them to mortal. When if anything its the more natural of the two kinds of summoning.

Your doing more than just "over generalizing" your putting words in the mouth of the author.
There is not statement at all whatsoever about their number or range of emotions.
The claim that there are only two states is therefor totally unsupported as far as I can tell.
Which is obvious since I have demonstrated that they have no less than three...
So I ask again, do you have actual in book stance for this, or is your claim of the binary emotional state simply your personal headcanon. Because with out some actual in text support for the claim... well it is not verifiably true and most CERTAINLY not canon.

106-107 dark conversions, they are not specifically two emotions, but rather they clearly state an elemental lacks the emotions of hate, pleasure, desire for revenge, love, friendship, jealousy, ambition or regret. Then then state that they do feel anger and do experience a "sort of compassion, kindness and peace with their own kind or among nature" which I interperet as one emotional state that the author can't clear explain because of how "alien" they are to use. That's only 2 that they are stated to have (you could count it as more), though you could I assume make a case for more emotions, however I feel that is humanizing them and the paragraphs around there go to great extent to tell us how inhuman they are.

Personally I think that they only use emotional descriptors on elementals in the first place because WE are human and we personify life, we can't NOT attribute an emotion to something. I mean, can you try and describe a persons relationship with another and do it without at least one emotional descriptor? And not a work relationship, a personal one.

Nightmartree wrote:And as for the death bit, the book also says they don't die unless you do XY and Z. Now this does mean that they can die, but it seems in conflict with the implied representation at several points that they can be "killed" by normal attacks, which is never clearly stated except in a class that SHOULD be highly interlinked with them but states something in contrast to the racial characteristics of elementals. It would be like getting a demon summoner class and then being told demons are sdc beings in rifts. The point I was trying to make originally though was A) it was probably someone trying to limit the warlock class and B) there is 2 kinds of death a warlock could suffer, physical which simply sends them home (as far as we know) and true, which almost never happens and requires a specific circumstance.

And again your cherry picking. The point that we are making is not that the book doesnt say what it says.
The point is that there are OTHER places in the books where this is contradicted.
That means that yes, your right they say this in a book. BUT that it is mutually exclusive with another part of canon.
Simply repeating the same thing over and over again does nothing to resolve this contradition.[/quote]

That's the thing, i'm not cherry picking. One side states that they can die and they won't be allowed to by their "brothers" if they can prevent it. The other gives a means for it to happen. There was no need for you to suddenly start house ruling that summoning makes them vulnerable to death and saying it makes sense for that to happen. I've managed to read the warlock class again and nothing in there states that the elemental can die by means other than that of the method described in the elemental section of dark conversions. Only that a warlock will never allow his brother elemental to die if he can prevent it. And that if the elemental senses its destruction it can leave. Even the line in the elemental section about them being vulnerable to death by magical and mundane means doesn't mean much considering the method that we are shortly told about to kill them is doable by both. Though it likely requires magic, special circumstances or other to make it viable considering the beings are stated in several points during their RCC to simply return home when their bodies are gone or not forced into one within time.

Note that an elelmental can only remain here for 2D6 hours before returning home without a body (possibly the most vulnerable time for an elemental, and the only time they may die that i'm aware of), and it is stated under Vulnerabilities, lifespan, and the note below allies that the physical destruction of their bodies sends them home, or that they may only be destroyed in energy form. Thats repeated and clearly stated in multiple locations of the write up in dark conversions which i believe is the most up to date write up on elementals correct?
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Eagle »

The part about "warlocks not allowing elementals to die" was probably intended as a way to limit the warlock's power. KS is pretty notorious for putting random limitations on things in an attempt to rein in player characters. He most likely meant "warlocks won't allow an elemental to be reduced to zero MDC". But of course, the book is written with all the precision that Palladium is known for. As in, everything is clear as mud.

I think by a strict reading of the rules, a warlock should have no problem letting an elemental's body be destroyed. But he shouldn't ever knowingly let the energy form be destroyed. You'd do everything possible to save the life of your brother. But you wouldn't give a crap if your brother's Rifts character got killed. Your real brother is still okay, completely unharmed. It's just the avatar that he uses to interact with the game that has gone away.
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Re: RIFTS Warlocks

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Nightmartree wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:Wow remind me to never let anyone around you who may just be annoying since it equates to cause for murder.

If I could just go home at the end of the day to a better happier place? Sure, why should I care if they die or not? that's pretty much the attitude of elementals, suicide bombers and me if I had a nice afterlife to go to and nothing in this plane to keep me busy.

fortunately for the rest of the world I like to read and I can't get the next book if I go on a murder spree, the only reason people don't kill other people more is A) too much work B) social contract, basically you don't kill me I won't kill you and C) people group together and retaliation from the group wards off enemies- this last one is why we are in things called countries that fight other groups called countries and kill each other when we can so we can take the stuff we want from the others land and wealth.
eliakon wrote:
Nightmartree wrote:They are either angry (includes frustrated/murderous/angry) or a mix of content/happy according to the book, that's 2 to me.

Can you provide a book and page that says this?
Not that these two exist, but that these are the only ones?
Never mind that even by this it has three. Happy, angry (send me home brother), and murderous.
And of course that requires a book statement that all states besides their angry state are always happy ones... which I am curious to see where this is stated in canon.


Nightmartree wrote:
And now your adding more to whats there than the book says, and they can die, a warlock won't allow them to do so if they can stop it. The book even tells us how, and likely the book meant to say warlocks won't let the elementals "die" and lose their bodies, but that the actual elementals essence will survive. Not that it bothers to clarify, and honestly was probably trying to show the "relationship" between elementals and warlock while limiting the class to not have fearless juggernauts willing to "die" for them...when thats pretty much what ever other bit of information makes elementals out to be.

I'm not "adding" anything.
I am pointing out that we have dueling canon here.
There is canon that says that they can not die and there is canon that says that they can die.
Simply arguing that one canon is better than the other canon is fruitless unless there is a specific statement in a book that says that the one trumps the other.
I will also point out that the book does not say "loose their bodies" or "be sent back" but it uses the word "die" explicitly. Thus the claim that the book did not mean die is rather far fetched.


Its in the bit part where they discuss the emotional states of elementals (Conversion Book 1, and Dark Conversions both). I believe it was in both written elemental sections at one point or another, the starting part that covers elementals in general. They state that the elemental has two emotional states, I may be over generalizing but they're either upset which is on a fast track to murderous, or they're happy/content. And the adding part is referring to the idea that the warlock summoning diminishes them to mortal. When if anything its the more natural of the two kinds of summoning.

And as for the death bit, the book also says they don't die unless you do XY and Z. Now this does mean that they can die, but it seems in conflict with the implied representation at several points that they can be "killed" by normal attacks, which is never clearly stated except in a class that SHOULD be highly interlinked with them but states something in contrast to the racial characteristics of elementals. It would be like getting a demon summoner class and then being told demons are sdc beings in rifts. The point I was trying to make originally though was A) it was probably someone trying to limit the warlock class and B) there is 2 kinds of death a warlock could suffer, physical which simply sends them home (as far as we know) and true, which almost never happens and requires a specific circumstance.


Wow... I'm going to comment on this as written and hopefully not as you meant it... you equate yourself to a suicide bomber... yup doesn't change my comment :nh:

On the other hand Christians go to a happier place at "the end of the day" and the sane ones don't desire to kill people on the way out, so your analogy only works for dissidents, malcontents, violent zealots, narcicists and other mentally disturbed people (not all mental illnesses, just the ones that care only about themselves or see others as below them or owing them).

Elementals are not religious zealots and we've been told that they don't think like humans do so they're not mentally ill. The way most humans feel about ants... yeah were less than that to them. I figure we are to them like germs are to humans they don't care even if they see us unless we cause discomfort. However they see Warlocks (of the same element) as if they ARE an elemental of the SAME element. Even if in the presence of conflicting elements, they'd all see the Warlocks (as long as that Warlock shares their elements) as the same as them. Since we know that elementals are all essences of a single elemental intelligence they wouldn't fight or attempt to harm themself so they wouldn't try to kill or harm a warlock. Now they may be annoyed like siblings, parents, friends, and other close relations may get but they won't be murderous. They may think "this little elemental may not have received enough of the essence and just doesn't get it." Yup that Warlock is the STUPID little brother.
:thwak: you some might think you're a :clown: but you're cool in book :ok: :thwak:--Mecha-Viper
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