Extending Juicer Longevity?

[jtjr26]

I friend and I were discussing hypothetical ways a regular juicer's lifespan could be extended. One that caught my attention would by for the juicer to have a latent mutation to have immortality so they could not die and has some regeneration. Problem is this did not become active till the person was already 2 years active as a juicer. I was thinking that the immortality could keep the juicer alive and the regeneration would repair the long term damage caused by the chemicals. Of course this would be OP as all hell but the wheels were turning at this point and I thought if the character does not go through detox they would continue being a juicer till last call, probably thinking that would be the end for them. When the effects of last call start to become evident they would think the end was near but when death did not come but they were feeling the effects of last call for however long they lived. I was thinking of this for an RP heavy group where there is more focus on character moments and not just combat. Any thoughts to tweak this?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Or, just be a Dragon Juicer. Given a supply of elder dragon blood, they can live pretty much indefinitely.

[Nightmartree]

I believe that the Immortality power would "Dejuice" them, crashing them hard, a forced detox that crashes them with none of the weening off that a proper program does, if they are prevented from killing themselves from depression or temporary insanity then the power would also give them a 100% repaired body and prevent them from Rejuicing later, as drugs aren't (or are really less) effective on immortal power wielders

That said I have on more than one occasion considered what would happen if a genius with a high tech lab got some happy time with a willing mutant immortal with healing factor and then developed a nice little drug I call "immortality" heals you up good, slows down aging if taken regularly (heal that damage right up) you don't fatigue as fast as you should (a side benny from the healing factor) and can fix 90% of anything jacking up a persons body...potentially including a juicer, though it may detox them as well... if taken in the right doses though it may extend their operational lifespan, though at the cost of adding vulnerable periods to them, essentially times when they aren't at peak power due to the "immortality" drug flowing through their veins and fixing things before the juicer cocktail destroys everything again. Finally when the juicer can't stave off the effects anymore they go in for a "full detox" weened off the drugs while getting doses of immortality to reduce symptoms and heal them. Final result is a perfectly healed human being who was once a juicer, and once they're back to peak health likely going to be "Rejuiced" for another operational lifespan so they can feel alive as only a juicer can...

And you can't use the super regens because I think they'd reject the harness...hmmmmm give me a bit to think on this

Edit:
-Defensive immunity may help as long as it recognizes the harm from the drugs as a separate thing from the drugs...a shaky use at best
-Life leech seems like a good fit, it already has the ability to be used in place of oxygen and food as well as heal or improve his body, so I could see a villain juicer using life leech to extend his own life at the cost of others (and in a pinch he can get 50% more speed, supernatural PS another attack and a few small bonuses...on top of his other powers)
-Massive Damage Capacity leaves you "totally vulnerable to the effects of drugs" will giving you regeneration, resistance to death, fatigue and enough SDC and HP to be a monster...if it becomes MDC in rifts well...that completely vulnerable to drugs still stands so maybe you'd be an MDC super juicer (though you'd need a harness specially made to penetrate your skin)
-Multiple Selves isn't quite what your thinking of but it does have a work around, simply make your other self a juicer and then pull him back into you before last call, you could be your own team of augmented humans, a partial conversion borg, a juicer, a crazy, a cyberknight, a tattoo man and the original and you can all meet up in a few years in a small tavern on a quiet backroad...

[glitterboy2098]

latent immortality might explain Julian the First, of the Juicer Army of Liberation. who is 3 years past the usual maximum time a juicer stays alive and still going. though suffering 4 years worth of last call hasn't exactly been all that kind.
the immortality just would have to be the "cannot die of old age" kind, not any kind that gives regen/special healing powers. Like Lorien in babylon 5.

[Nightmartree]

immortality just would have to be the "cannot die of old age" kind

If there was any immortality I was aware of in rifts that didn't make you mdc or give you anti drug powers or absurd regen that make becoming a juicer impossible (or the result of inhumane brutal experimentation leaving you in permanent suffering). Then i'd say this was likely it, but palladium doesn't do the whole "still vulnerable but can't be killed" deal...also technically the juicer isn't dying of old age but from the aggressive ravages of the chemical soup in their body

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

immortality just would have to be the "cannot die of old age" kind

If there was any immortality I was aware of in rifts that didn't make you mdc or give you anti drug powers or absurd regen that make becoming a juicer impossible (or the result of inhumane brutal experimentation leaving you in permanent suffering). Then i'd say this was likely it, but palladium doesn't do the whole "still vulnerable but can't be killed" deal...also technically the juicer isn't dying of old age but from the aggressive ravages of the chemical soup in their body

Multiple Beings could handle it.

OG You is never a Juicer.

Duplicate you is.

When Duplicate You is at ~4 years, you re-absorb them. When you spit them back out, theyre totally healthy and get re-juiced.

Of course, men at arms are not eligible for Super abilities, so....

Again, if youre looking for a Juicer with longevity, its Dragon Juicer or bust, pretty much. And the acquisition of the necessary blood can be a story element.

[Library Ogre]

I have to wonder how being a psychic might play into it. While they're two different categories, a minor psychic with Bio-Regenerate and Impervious to Poisons might be able to get a lot of longevity out of being a Juicer, using Impervious to Poisons to limit some of the damage being done by the massive drug overdoses, and Bio-Regeneration to repair it after the fact. Sit down, consciously turn down/off your juicer harness, make yourself briefly immune to poison (2 minutes), meditate to bio-regenerate (taking 1 minute), make yourself immune to poison again, bio-regenerate again, and return your body to a newly-juiced state by doing this repeatedly. If you're a minor psychic*, with a 10 M.E., you could manage 2 such heals (taking only a couple minutes), though being a juicer might make it hard to meditate to recover ISP.

You could accomplish similar things with magic, I suppose, using similar spells on your Juicer buddy, but Bio-regeneration is a pretty potent power compared to Healing Touch or other low-level, accessible, magic.

*I know you'd technically need to be a major psychic to have 2 powers from different categories, but I'm purposefully ignoring it; with RUE removing the penalty for Major psychics, you can do it just as well with a major psychic, without impacting the character at all.

[Shark_Force]

I friend and I were discussing hypothetical ways a regular juicer's lifespan could be extended. One that caught my attention would by for the juicer to have a latent mutation to have immortality so they could not die and has some regeneration. Problem is this did not become active till the person was already 2 years active as a juicer. I was thinking that the immortality could keep the juicer alive and the regeneration would repair the long term damage caused by the chemicals. Of course this would be OP as all hell but the wheels were turning at this point and I thought if the character does not go through detox they would continue being a juicer till last call, probably thinking that would be the end for them. When the effects of last call start to become evident they would think the end was near but when death did not come but they were feeling the effects of last call for however long they lived. I was thinking of this for an RP heavy group where there is more focus on character moments and not just combat. Any thoughts to tweak this?

there's a biomancy spell that completely heals damage from being a juicer.

and i'm not convinced it's really OP at all. is it genuinely a balancing point that if your campaign runs for 6 years of game time, the juicer is going to need to either detox or die? is that something that is expected to come up on a regular basis?

in the setting, it's an explanation for why everyone doesn't just get juiced. in terms of game balance, the impact is fairly minimal; it should inform the way you RP the character, but that's about it.

[Thom001]

a fellow player was going through burn out while we were on an alien dinosaur planet (homebrew planet) and his consciousness was transferred to an android body. Super rare but that part of the campaign was all of us cutting a bloody trail through the dinos (yea...but they were all bad) to find this.

[eliakon]

Off hand...
...as a GM I tend to be pretty harsh on letting juicers live past their life span.
My reasoning is this. You are getting a boat load of powers at the start. When you do you are making a deal with everyone else that your character is going to be this physical bad ass for the next six years of game time or so... and then you will need to make a new character. Its a trade off. If you get to spend six game years using those powers... and then cheat death and keep on living it is sort of unfair to the other players.
If everyone at the table though is cool with the idea, then I will allow the group to go on a quest to figure out a way to save their friend.
But the Juicer Quest is like the Grail Quest. Many begin it, but few live to finish it and even fewer in they way they intend. More than a few Juicer Quests have resulted in the Juicer dying, but the player feeling that they have succeeded. For it can often be more about the Questor than the Quest.

[Killer Cyborg]

Off hand...
...as a GM I tend to be pretty harsh on letting juicers live past their life span.
My reasoning is this. You are getting a boat load of powers at the start. When you do you are making a deal with everyone else that your character is going to be this physical bad ass for the next six years of game time or so... and then you will need to make a new character. Its a trade off. If you get to spend six game years using those powers... and then cheat death and keep on living it is sort of unfair to the other players.

This is my basic view, although if a Juicer wants to go through detox, and makes successful rolls, then they get live as per the usual rules. I'm cool with that.

Also, I have to acknowledge that Rifts has changed since the RMB came out. Originally, power came at a price. If you were a human, and you wanted to truly compete with all the supernatural creatures out there, you had to give up something as a rule. You had to give up your longevity by becoming a Juicer, you had to give up your sanity by becoming a Crazy, or you had to give up your humanity by becoming a Borg.
Sure, you could play a non-human, but that was its own downside. Dragons were feared and hunted in many places, especially in CS territory. Dog Boys had to either be loyal to the CS, or hunted by the CS, both of which are downsides.
Power Armor pilots could compete... but they were dependent on their gear, and without it they were just an average squishy.
To me, this was Rifts at its best.
But these days there are SO many classes and races that can be superhuman without paying any real price, that depending on the campaign I could see letting a Juicer escape the usual cost for his power.

In such a campaign, I'd probably go with a Techno-Wizardry device of some kind, because they can officially do anything and everything that the GM allows, no matter how rules-breaking the effect normally would be.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have to wonder how being a psychic might play into it. While they're two different categories, a minor psychic with Bio-Regenerate and Impervious to Poisons might be able to get a lot of longevity out of being a Juicer, using Impervious to Poisons to limit some of the damage being done by the massive drug overdoses, and Bio-Regeneration to repair it after the fact. Sit down, consciously turn down/off your juicer harness, make yourself briefly immune to poison (2 minutes), meditate to bio-regenerate (taking 1 minute), make yourself immune to poison again, bio-regenerate again, and return your body to a newly-juiced state by doing this repeatedly. If you're a minor psychic*, with a 10 M.E., you could manage 2 such heals (taking only a couple minutes), though being a juicer might make it hard to meditate to recover ISP.

You could accomplish similar things with magic, I suppose, using similar spells on your Juicer buddy, but Bio-regeneration is a pretty potent power compared to Healing Touch or other low-level, accessible, magic.

*I know you'd technically need to be a major psychic to have 2 powers from different categories, but I'm purposefully ignoring it; with RUE removing the penalty for Major psychics, you can do it just as well with a major psychic, without impacting the character at all.

Wouldn't impervious to poisons just cause instant withdrawl rather than healing damage?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I have to wonder how being a psychic might play into it. While they're two different categories, a minor psychic with Bio-Regenerate and Impervious to Poisons might be able to get a lot of longevity out of being a Juicer, using Impervious to Poisons to limit some of the damage being done by the massive drug overdoses, and Bio-Regeneration to repair it after the fact. Sit down, consciously turn down/off your juicer harness, make yourself briefly immune to poison (2 minutes), meditate to bio-regenerate (taking 1 minute), make yourself immune to poison again, bio-regenerate again, and return your body to a newly-juiced state by doing this repeatedly. If you're a minor psychic*, with a 10 M.E., you could manage 2 such heals (taking only a couple minutes), though being a juicer might make it hard to meditate to recover ISP.

You could accomplish similar things with magic, I suppose, using similar spells on your Juicer buddy, but Bio-regeneration is a pretty potent power compared to Healing Touch or other low-level, accessible, magic.

*I know you'd technically need to be a major psychic to have 2 powers from different categories, but I'm purposefully ignoring it; with RUE removing the penalty for Major psychics, you can do it just as well with a major psychic, without impacting the character at all.

Wouldn't impervious to poisons just cause instant withdrawl rather than healing damage?

Thats where my brain went.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Off hand...
...as a GM I tend to be pretty harsh on letting juicers live past their life span.
My reasoning is this. You are getting a boat load of powers at the start. When you do you are making a deal with everyone else that your character is going to be this physical bad ass for the next six years of game time or so... and then you will need to make a new character. Its a trade off. If you get to spend six game years using those powers... and then cheat death and keep on living it is sort of unfair to the other players.

This is my basic view, although if a Juicer wants to go through detox, and makes successful rolls, then they get live as per the usual rules. I'm cool with that.

Also, I have to acknowledge that Rifts has changed since the RMB came out. Originally, power came at a price. If you were a human, and you wanted to truly compete with all the supernatural creatures out there, you had to give up something as a rule. You had to give up your longevity by becoming a Juicer, you had to give up your sanity by becoming a Crazy, or you had to give up your humanity by becoming a Borg.
Sure, you could play a non-human, but that was its own downside. Dragons were feared and hunted in many places, especially in CS territory. Dog Boys had to either be loyal to the CS, or hunted by the CS, both of which are downsides.
Power Armor pilots could compete... but they were dependent on their gear, and without it they were just an average squishy.
To me, this was Rifts at its best.
But these days there are SO many classes and races that can be superhuman without paying any real price, that depending on the campaign I could see letting a Juicer escape the usual cost for his power.

In such a campaign, I'd probably go with a Techno-Wizardry device of some kind, because they can officially do anything and everything that the GM allows, no matter how rules-breaking the effect normally would be.

As a rule, id allow a Juicer to transition directly to a full-conversion borg any time before year 5 with no rolls. So, as long as the Juicer was saving his coin, and had a plan, hes got an out. You go into a medically-induced coma and they dont bring you out of it till youre fully converted.

Or, again, if youre playing a campaign where you know in game time is likely to be longer than six years, Dragon Juicer.

[taalismn]

I have to wonder how being a psychic might play into it. While they're two different categories, a minor psychic with Bio-Regenerate and Impervious to Poisons might be able to get a lot of longevity out of being a Juicer, using Impervious to Poisons to limit some of the damage being done by the massive drug overdoses, and Bio-Regeneration to repair it after the fact. Sit down, consciously turn down/off your juicer harness, make yourself briefly immune to poison (2 minutes), meditate to bio-regenerate (taking 1 minute), make yourself immune to poison again, bio-regenerate again, and return your body to a newly-juiced state by doing this repeatedly. If you're a minor psychic*, with a 10 M.E., you could manage 2 such heals (taking only a couple minutes), though being a juicer might make it hard to meditate to recover ISP. l.

This souns like the sort of character who'd be constantly having to stop and meditate(or try to) after every particularly intense bout of chem-fueled activity, just trying to undo the damage and hopefully stay ahead of the damage.
I can imagine a lot of other Juicers giving this guy a hard time because a) he's not living hard between combat, or b) he'snot out actively seeking combat/work to make the most of the time he's got.
It's sort of like "Yeah, you exercise, you diet, and you end up adding a few more days of agony slowly dying in the end."

[Axelmania]

Splugorth Juicers (Maxi Killers?) have a fractional lifespan so if you have a very high starting lifespan you are fine. The longevity super power for example I think ages you at 1/5 rate which would make you live 5x longer on par with Elves/Atlanteans.

[dreicunan]

While there was rather spirited disagreement about whether or not a juicer could undergo the process without completing detox first or what stats would be used as the baseline, there is always the Cold-Blooded route. (To clarify, this extends the life of the character, though obviously not their time as a Juicer.)

[Dustin Fireblade]

I friend and I were discussing hypothetical ways a regular juicer's lifespan could be extended.

I seem to recall that the Gene Splicer's can re-create a human as a Juicer, with all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. Think that was mentioned in Mindwerks?

Of course there might be the matter of the Gene Splicer coming after his experiment...

[jtjr26]

Hey guys thanks for the responses. Like I said this character is going to be for an role play heavy game this character had made peace with not going through he detox process and accepted what would come as they went through last call. The character he did not die and now has the enhanced ability of a juicer but suffers the effects of last call.

Lots of good ideas, Cheers

[Library Ogre]

I have to wonder how being a psychic might play into it. While they're two different categories, a minor psychic with Bio-Regenerate and Impervious to Poisons might be able to get a lot of longevity out of being a Juicer, using Impervious to Poisons to limit some of the damage being done by the massive drug overdoses, and Bio-Regeneration to repair it after the fact. Sit down, consciously turn down/off your juicer harness, make yourself briefly immune to poison (2 minutes), meditate to bio-regenerate (taking 1 minute), make yourself immune to poison again, bio-regenerate again, and return your body to a newly-juiced state by doing this repeatedly. If you're a minor psychic*, with a 10 M.E., you could manage 2 such heals (taking only a couple minutes), though being a juicer might make it hard to meditate to recover ISP.

You could accomplish similar things with magic, I suppose, using similar spells on your Juicer buddy, but Bio-regeneration is a pretty potent power compared to Healing Touch or other low-level, accessible, magic.

*I know you'd technically need to be a major psychic to have 2 powers from different categories, but I'm purposefully ignoring it; with RUE removing the penalty for Major psychics, you can do it just as well with a major psychic, without impacting the character at all.

Wouldn't impervious to poisons just cause instant withdrawl rather than healing damage?

And Bio-renegeration would heal the damage to the body, and Impervious to Poison wears off after 2 minutes. If a juicer is going to go into withdrawal with 2 minutes without drugs, then refilling his supply has got to be a fraught process.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I have to wonder how being a psychic might play into it. While they're two different categories, a minor psychic with Bio-Regenerate and Impervious to Poisons might be able to get a lot of longevity out of being a Juicer, using Impervious to Poisons to limit some of the damage being done by the massive drug overdoses, and Bio-Regeneration to repair it after the fact. Sit down, consciously turn down/off your juicer harness, make yourself briefly immune to poison (2 minutes), meditate to bio-regenerate (taking 1 minute), make yourself immune to poison again, bio-regenerate again, and return your body to a newly-juiced state by doing this repeatedly. If you're a minor psychic*, with a 10 M.E., you could manage 2 such heals (taking only a couple minutes), though being a juicer might make it hard to meditate to recover ISP.

You could accomplish similar things with magic, I suppose, using similar spells on your Juicer buddy, but Bio-regeneration is a pretty potent power compared to Healing Touch or other low-level, accessible, magic.

*I know you'd technically need to be a major psychic to have 2 powers from different categories, but I'm purposefully ignoring it; with RUE removing the penalty for Major psychics, you can do it just as well with a major psychic, without impacting the character at all.

Wouldn't impervious to poisons just cause instant withdrawl rather than healing damage?

And Bio-renegeration would heal the damage to the body, and Impervious to Poison wears off after 2 minutes. If a juicer is going to go into withdrawal with 2 minutes without drugs, then refilling his supply has got to be a fraught process.

False assumption that refilling the bio-comp happens when the drugs are empty.

And you're not talking about "ive still got some drugs in my system, but im being refilled", you're talking about going from normal to 100% totally, supernaturally immune to drugs in an instant. There's a big difference.

[taalismn]

Hey guys thanks for the responses. Like I said this character is going to be for an role play heavy game this character had made peace with not going through he detox process and accepted what would come as they went through last call. The character he did not die and now has the enhanced ability of a juicer but suffers the effects of last call.

Lots of good ideas, Cheers

Wow...that's a mixed blessing. "You have enhanced abilities beyond the human norm...but for every moment of it, you feel like you're about to die. And you thought monday morning hangovers were bad."

[tsh77769]

Mutants in Orbit has Juicers that have double the life span though at significantly reduced powers.

Juicer Uprising has D-bee juicers with extended life spans (though still fraction of their normal life span).

One of the Rifters (the one with New Chilicothe) has a section for an experimental juicer program that can eitehr extend a life span or allow for more than one juice and de-tox cycle.

Triax has a very limited narrow focus "pseudo-juicer" drug treatment that can be used essentially indefinitely.

Tsh77769

[RockJock]

For long lived Juicers the go to is still the Dragon Juicer. In our games we have allowed a 3Gs Juicer who is statistically the same as a standard Juicer, but without the big harness and a doubled lifespan. I am fairly sure this was a house rule, but made sense in the 3Gs power level.

There are many characters that are not Juicers, but can give you some of the same feel, depending on your game. For example a Blind Warrior Woman has a lot of the speed, agility, and craziness of a Juicer. I could easily see a BWW altered to look human(hair, rounded ears etc) passing as a Juicer. Another idea is a Tattooed Man/Maxi-Man focused on abilities that are remind me of a Juicer(Running, Strength, Cross Weapons).

You can always go with a munchkin frankenstein approach to making a pseudo Juicer. I'm not advocating something like this, but I'm sure somebody has done it.

-Take the medical upgrades in DB6 for some bonuses.
-Pseudo Juicer equipment from Triax.
-A couple of Special Human Traits like Ambidextrous and Exceptional Endurance from Lonestar.
-A few cybernetics like Amplified Hearing, and Cyber Armor
-a few Atlantean tats, mainly for the SDC boost since the character lacks the PPE to power them.
-major psychic with things like Intuitive Combat and healing abilities



In the end you don't have a Juicer, but you have a highly boosted Juicer Wannabe Munchkin.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

For long lived Juicers the go to is still the Dragon Juicer. In our games we have allowed a 3Gs Juicer who is statistically the same as a standard Juicer, but without the big harness and a doubled lifespan. I am fairly sure this was a house rule, but made sense in the 3Gs power level.

There are many characters that are not Juicers, but can give you some of the same feel, depending on your game. For example a Blind Warrior Woman has a lot of the speed, agility, and craziness of a Juicer. I could easily see a BWW altered to look human(hair, rounded ears etc) passing as a Juicer. Another idea is a Tattooed Man/Maxi-Man focused on abilities that are remind me of a Juicer(Running, Strength, Cross Weapons).

You can always go with a munchkin frankenstein approach to making a pseudo Juicer. I'm not advocating something like this, but I'm sure somebody has done it.

-Take the medical upgrades in DB6 for some bonuses.
-Pseudo Juicer equipment from Triax.
-A couple of Special Human Traits like Ambidextrous and Exceptional Endurance from Lonestar.
-A few cybernetics like Amplified Hearing, and Cyber Armor
-a few Atlantean tats, mainly for the SDC boost since the character lacks the PPE to power them.
-major psychic with things like Intuitive Combat and healing abilities



In the end you don't have a Juicer, but you have a highly boosted Juicer Wannabe Munchkin.

If we're going to look at alternates to the juicer process, there's also the Cold-Blooded in Merc Adventures. They're not quite as quick as a juicer, but they're hard to kill, invulnerable to vamps, can't be turned undead, and get a whole bunch of bonuses against disease, possession, poison, fear (HF), etc.

Hmm....reading the class again, it might actually be a pretty fun class to play, even without all the bonuses, invulnerabilities, etc.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have to wonder how being a psychic might play into it. While they're two different categories, a minor psychic with Bio-Regenerate and Impervious to Poisons might be able to get a lot of longevity out of being a Juicer, using Impervious to Poisons to limit some of the damage being done by the massive drug overdoses, and Bio-Regeneration to repair it after the fact. Sit down, consciously turn down/off your juicer harness, make yourself briefly immune to poison (2 minutes), meditate to bio-regenerate (taking 1 minute), make yourself immune to poison again, bio-regenerate again, and return your body to a newly-juiced state by doing this repeatedly. If you're a minor psychic*, with a 10 M.E., you could manage 2 such heals (taking only a couple minutes), though being a juicer might make it hard to meditate to recover ISP.

You could accomplish similar things with magic, I suppose, using similar spells on your Juicer buddy, but Bio-regeneration is a pretty potent power compared to Healing Touch or other low-level, accessible, magic.

*I know you'd technically need to be a major psychic to have 2 powers from different categories, but I'm purposefully ignoring it; with RUE removing the penalty for Major psychics, you can do it just as well with a major psychic, without impacting the character at all.

Wouldn't impervious to poisons just cause instant withdrawl rather than healing damage?

And Bio-renegeration would heal the damage to the body, and Impervious to Poison wears off after 2 minutes. If a juicer is going to go into withdrawal with 2 minutes without drugs, then refilling his supply has got to be a fraught process.

Not sure if Bio-Regenerate can arbitrarily negate the penalties from Juicer Detox. Or else you just recruit minor Psi's with bio-regen, juice them for 2 years, detox them, let them fully recover, then juice again indefinately.

[dreicunan]

I have to wonder how being a psychic might play into it. While they're two different categories, a minor psychic with Bio-Regenerate and Impervious to Poisons might be able to get a lot of longevity out of being a Juicer, using Impervious to Poisons to limit some of the damage being done by the massive drug overdoses, and Bio-Regeneration to repair it after the fact. Sit down, consciously turn down/off your juicer harness, make yourself briefly immune to poison (2 minutes), meditate to bio-regenerate (taking 1 minute), make yourself immune to poison again, bio-regenerate again, and return your body to a newly-juiced state by doing this repeatedly. If you're a minor psychic*, with a 10 M.E., you could manage 2 such heals (taking only a couple minutes), though being a juicer might make it hard to meditate to recover ISP.

You could accomplish similar things with magic, I suppose, using similar spells on your Juicer buddy, but Bio-regeneration is a pretty potent power compared to Healing Touch or other low-level, accessible, magic.

*I know you'd technically need to be a major psychic to have 2 powers from different categories, but I'm purposefully ignoring it; with RUE removing the penalty for Major psychics, you can do it just as well with a major psychic, without impacting the character at all.

Wouldn't impervious to poisons just cause instant withdrawl rather than healing damage?

And Bio-renegeration would heal the damage to the body, and Impervious to Poison wears off after 2 minutes. If a juicer is going to go into withdrawal with 2 minutes without drugs, then refilling his supply has got to be a fraught process.

False assumption that refilling the bio-comp happens when the drugs are empty.

And you're not talking about "ive still got some drugs in my system, but im being refilled", you're talking about going from normal to 100% totally, supernaturally immune to drugs in an instant. There's a big difference.

The whole "when would withdrawal penalties set in" was one of the underlying issues for the arguments about going from Juicer to Cold-blooded as well. I don't disagree with Colonel Tetsuya's point about going from normal to 100% immune being a big difference, but I also don't think that two minutes is enough to trigger detox penalties (in part because if that short of a lapse would do so, one would think that the issue would be noted more clearly in the class write-up!).

[Shark_Force]

aren't there rules for the effects of getting off of the juicer drugs in the rules for detox? if the penalties start immediately, then presumably having the drugs in your system run out (which would normally take a while, particularly considering a little container in the harness contains iirc a six month supply of drugs in addition to a number of other payloads so presumably a single dose of juicer drugs lasts a while) means congratulations, you're starting day 1 of detox whether you like it or not.

as to bio-regeneration repairing the damage, it isn't normal damage. the juicer doesn't lose current HP or SDC, which bio-regeneration can repair, their body just starts to completely break down. there is nothing in bio-regeneration that implies it can repair the kind of damage described, which is the body just wearing out... which is roughly similar to old age. you can't bio-regenerate your way out of having lived for 80 years as a normal human. you can't bio-regenerate your way out of having lived for years as a juicer. that just isn't what bio-regeneration does.

[dreicunan]

aren't there rules for the effects of getting off of the juicer drugs in the rules for detox? if the penalties start immediately, then presumably having the drugs in your system run out (which would normally take a while, particularly considering a little container in the harness contains iirc a six month supply of drugs in addition to a number of other payloads so presumably a single dose of juicer drugs lasts a while) means congratulations, you're starting day 1 of detox whether you like it or not.

as to bio-regeneration repairing the damage, it isn't normal damage. the juicer doesn't lose current HP or SDC, which bio-regeneration can repair, their body just starts to completely break down. there is nothing in bio-regeneration that implies it can repair the kind of damage described, which is the body just wearing out... which is roughly similar to old age. you can't bio-regenerate your way out of having lived for 80 years as a normal human. you can't bio-regenerate your way out of having lived for years as a juicer. that just isn't what bio-regeneration does.

Fair points, but then the game rules are based around combat damage and healing from that damage. They kind of wing other things to interact with the hp/sdc system. Dinosaur Swamp ,for example, has a number of diseases that inflict damage direct to hit points on failed saves. Some of them have other mechanisms as well (sleeping sickness and yellow fever, for example). I'm pretty sure that there are poisons that do hp/sdc damage as well. Thus, I don't find it completely implausible for one to rule that bio-regeneration could at least stave off the negative impacts of being a Juicer (though I wouldn't insist on it being possible to those who disagree).

[Library Ogre]

False assumption that refilling the bio-comp happens when the drugs are empty.

And you're not talking about "ive still got some drugs in my system, but im being refilled", you're talking about going from normal to 100% totally, supernaturally immune to drugs in an instant. There's a big difference.

In which case, Impervious to Poison is the ultimate anti-Juicer spell. I'm going to invent a ranged version so I don't have to touch them, but it apparently throws them into instant detox, without a save, for 5 minutes a level.

Gods help the Juicer who fights a technowizard with a JuicerStopper gun, huh? One application of Impervious to Poison and they are thrown into instant, sweating, agony.

OR, you can actually look at the Juicer detoxification process. Step 1 of a full detox is major surgery to remove the bio-comp, and destroy the drug harness. "Surgery, preferably
performed by a cyber-doc, is necessary." Specifically, without removing the bio-comp, because "even without the drug harness, the system stimulates the body to create natural hormones and chemicals to unnatural and ultimately deadly proportions." (quotes are from RUE p. 80, RMB p. 69-70).

A temporary interruption of Juicer chemicals, even if psionically immune, is not going to send a juicer into detox. Bio-regeneration to repair the damage caused by those chemicals is designed to prolong life, not to make the juicer immortal. You don't detox then rejuice because the juicer process is expensive and time consuming, and it's usually cheaper to juice a new city rat every 3 years than to repeatedly juice and unjuice a psychic every 3.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Going further outside the Rifts setting then super powers...

The Juicer could get their hands on the Beans of Life; created by the Chi Magic spell of the same name; they could just reset their duration every 2 or 3 years. However, in rifter 3 article about converting N&S and MC stuff to Rifts, the chi magic conversions there set the effects of these beads as a usable only once per lifetime in rifts.


Going back to superpowers....
Most any regeneration powers will, unless otherwise mod'ed, will expel any implants over a short amount of time. And since most regen powers come with drug resistance type bonuses, I would say that a J with them would 1) need re-implantation of the cybernetics once a year or a special juicer system that is totally external, and/or 2) the drugs being used would be less effective to start, and less and less effective over time, so the used mix of drugs would need to be changed out ether once every year or two years..or become ineffective on the char.

On to Psi powers and magic healing....
These do not effect the type of damage done by being a juicer. They only effect gross trauma like cuts, holes, and static shock damages (from explosions and high speed projectiles).

[jtjr26]

Hey guys thanks for the responses. Like I said this character is going to be for an role play heavy game this character had made peace with not going through he detox process and accepted what would come as they went through last call. The character he did not die and now has the enhanced ability of a juicer but suffers the effects of last call.

Lots of good ideas, Cheers

Wow...that's a mixed blessing. "You have enhanced abilities beyond the human norm...but for every moment of it, you feel like you're about to die. And you thought monday morning hangovers were bad."

Well there's a price for everything.

[drazool]

I would approach this two ways, depending on whether the character was a player character or an NPC.

If a player character: Give them tantalizing hints that someone, somewhere has developed a technique/spell/whatever that would extend their juicer lifetime. Tune the quest so that it can't really be attempted until the juicer is already on last call. Essentially, the juicer should be knocking on the door of the genesplicer, ancient dragon, alien cyberdoc, whatever, as his systems are shutting down. Then, in exchange for the rejuvenation, the doc or whatever will demand some kind of payment. Not in money, but in some kind of work that the party can provide.

If an NPC: Juicer, already on last call, disappears for a few weeks. When he returns, he looks great! He's just as fast and as strong as he's always been, but the apparent symptoms are resolved. He then has a job/favor/opportunity for the party to do. Dangerous, but lucrative. During the quest, it becomes apparent that something has happened to the juicer, changing him in some way. Are these changes permanent? Are they sinister? Is this even the same guy who left? Cue quest to answer these questions.

Basically, if you want a juicer to have some kind of extended longevity in your game, just invent the reason, and tie it to an adventure. The rules exist to create a fun game, and that's also the reason to break them!

The best part is, you don't even have to come up with the reason. It can be a total mystery to the players, even to the juicer himself.

[Library Ogre]

On to Psi powers and magic healing....
These do not effect the type of damage done by being a juicer. They only effect gross trauma like cuts, holes, and static shock damages (from explosions and high speed projectiles).

This is not the case with the minor psionic power of Bio-regeneration. Excerpts from the RMB description:

"This the ability to mentally heal oneself of disease, poison, or physical damage. ... Bio-Regeneration does not restore missing limbs, ... In addition, when cuts and scrapes are healed through bio-regeneration there is NO scarring."

So, psionic bio-regeneration (the minor power) can completely manage disease, poison, and physical damage. It cannot restore limbs (which is often the threshold that makes one unable to get cybernetics/bionics; q.v. the brodkil), but even a badly damaged body part can be completely restored without scarring.

RUE adds a few stipulations... namely, that extensive healing (more than half your HP or SDC in an hour) can be exhausting and cause penalties for a few hours while you recover.

[Shark_Force]

False assumption that refilling the bio-comp happens when the drugs are empty.

And you're not talking about "ive still got some drugs in my system, but im being refilled", you're talking about going from normal to 100% totally, supernaturally immune to drugs in an instant. There's a big difference.

In which case, Impervious to Poison is the ultimate anti-Juicer spell. I'm going to invent a ranged version so I don't have to touch them, but it apparently throws them into instant detox, without a save, for 5 minutes a level.

Gods help the Juicer who fights a technowizard with a JuicerStopper gun, huh? One application of Impervious to Poison and they are thrown into instant, sweating, agony.

OR, you can actually look at the Juicer detoxification process. Step 1 of a full detox is major surgery to remove the bio-comp, and destroy the drug harness. "Surgery, preferably
performed by a cyber-doc, is necessary." Specifically, without removing the bio-comp, because "even without the drug harness, the system stimulates the body to create natural hormones and chemicals to unnatural and ultimately deadly proportions." (quotes are from RUE p. 80, RMB p. 69-70).

A temporary interruption of Juicer chemicals, even if psionically immune, is not going to send a juicer into detox. Bio-regeneration to repair the damage caused by those chemicals is designed to prolong life, not to make the juicer immortal. You don't detox then rejuice because the juicer process is expensive and time consuming, and it's usually cheaper to juice a new city rat every 3 years than to repeatedly juice and unjuice a psychic every 3.

why would i use a gun that is only useful against juicers when there are other guns that work well against almost everything? i mean, call me crazy, but vulnerability to a gun that fires magic nets is a problem for most of the world that aren't juicers, (and still potentially causes some problems for juicers - when a single failed roll dooms you, even a 70% chance, for example, starts looking not so good over time) and shuts things down far harder than detox does to a juicer.

i mean, we already have canon TW weapons in the game that shut down everyone else. why would one that works against juicers be a problem, even if someone decides to spend all the time and effort to create an extremely niche device of questionable value in the first place?

[Library Ogre]

why would i use a gun that is only useful against juicers when there are other guns that work well against almost everything?

Juicing killed my brother. I am going to stop every juicer, ever, with a gun that emulates a fourth level spell.

[Shark_Force]

why would i use a gun that is only useful against juicers when there are other guns that work well against almost everything?

Juicing killed my brother. I am going to stop every juicer, ever, with a gun that emulates a fourth level spell.

good for you. now if you can shoot a juicer, you'll be able to get a lesser effect than what you could have already done with other TW weapons that exist, and you'll be more or less useless against anything that is not a juicer. somehow, i'm not convinced this is a major problem.

[drazool]

why would i use a gun that is only useful against juicers when there are other guns that work well against almost everything?

Juicing killed my brother. I am going to stop every juicer, ever, with a gun that emulates a fourth level spell.

good for you. now if you can shoot a juicer, you'll be able to get a lesser effect than what you could have already done with other TW weapons that exist, and you'll be more or less useless against anything that is not a juicer. somehow, i'm not convinced this is a major problem.

I actually love it. Anti-juicer nanobot flechette rounds. Each shot contains a cocktail of drugs and nanobots that temporarily disrupt the juicer metabolism. Save vs poison, or at half attacks, half bonuses to strike/parry/dodge, 3d6 SDC damage. Duration: 1d4 melees.

Special: does no further damage if hit again during the first shot's effect duration, but extends the effect for 2d4 melees (save vs poison -2). Third shot extends 2d4 minutes, fourth 1d4 hours, 5th 1d4 days. 6th and subsequent: add 2d4 days.

Doesn't detox the juicer, but suppresses the effects of the bio-comp and drug harness.

Shoot your resident juicer with one of these bad boys and see them driven before you!

[Library Ogre]

why would i use a gun that is only useful against juicers when there are other guns that work well against almost everything?

Juicing killed my brother. I am going to stop every juicer, ever, with a gun that emulates a fourth level spell.

good for you. now if you can shoot a juicer, you'll be able to get a lesser effect than what you could have already done with other TW weapons that exist, and you'll be more or less useless against anything that is not a juicer. somehow, i'm not convinced this is a major problem.

You didn't see what happened to him, man. You don't understand, you weren't there!

[Hotrod]

Here are my top 10 methods that might work to extend a juicer's life:
1. Become a Murder-Wraith.
2. Become a Dragon Juicer and get very friendly with an ancient dragon (or find a way to enslave it and turn it into your own personal blood bag).
3. Be an NPC in the books, which often break rules for their own stage-setting purposes. For a specific example of this very question, see Julian the First in the Siege on Tolkeen books.
4. As a True Atlantean juicer, sleep in a pyramid every night. That might delay your death a bit.
5. Use time dilation or some kind of cryogenic storage/stasis whenever you're not needed, like that field army that Archie is still baby-sitting.
6. Become one of Odin's chosen warriors. It might work.
7. Get transformed into a vampire.
8. Get your hands on Mindprancer, a rune weapon from Palladium Fantasy.
9. Step into the circle of eternal life in Adventures on the High Seas.
10. Drink one of many potions of youth, such as the one from the Crystal Goblet in Island at the Edge of the World, or one made from the liver of some kind of mountain sloth creature from Land of the Damned I.

Your results may vary.

[kaid]

If you have a biomancer who is willing to do it. They have a high level healing spell that basically can heal even a full conversion borg back into a their normal full and healthy body. In theory that spell would have zero problem resetting a juicer back to normal human without any of the withdrawal side effects. Then if they wanted they could simply get juiced again rinse and repeat.

[Nightmask]

For those talking about using anti-poison spells/psionics against juicers do keep in mind that technically the drugs that empower them AREN'T poisons. Sure the long-term effects of the drugs are toxic from the stresses on the body but they aren't actually poisons. They act to enhance the body in some fashion, to try and rate them as poisons you're using an expansion of the definition that would make the spell work against EVERYTHING since everything can be poisonous in the wrong dosages, including oxygen and water.

[kaid]

For those talking about using anti-poison spells/psionics against juicers do keep in mind that technically the drugs that empower them AREN'T poisons. Sure the long-term effects of the drugs are toxic from the stresses on the body but they aren't actually poisons. They act to enhance the body in some fashion, to try and rate them as poisons you're using an expansion of the definition that would make the spell work against EVERYTHING since everything can be poisonous in the wrong dosages, including oxygen and water.

This is pretty much why you need some type of really comprehensive heal. One of the few that would do it well is the biomancer high level restoration spell that basically if there is any of you left that is still alive it can pretty much fix you to a whole healthy person again. It is one of the few things that would heal the effects of the chemicals/nanites/implants/biocomb package totally. And because it is a full heal it should in theory basically reset your juicer clock.

Now biomancers would probably be pissed after healing a person who was doing this to their body with machines only to have them go right back to it so getting this done repeatedly could be problematic but it is an option that should work.

[Library Ogre]

For those talking about using anti-poison spells/psionics against juicers do keep in mind that technically the drugs that empower them AREN'T poisons. Sure the long-term effects of the drugs are toxic from the stresses on the body but they aren't actually poisons. They act to enhance the body in some fashion, to try and rate them as poisons you're using an expansion of the definition that would make the spell work against EVERYTHING since everything can be poisonous in the wrong dosages, including oxygen and water.

Impervious to Poison/Toxin (the minor psionic power) specifically notes that it is effective on drugs.

[eliakon]

False assumption that refilling the bio-comp happens when the drugs are empty.

And you're not talking about "ive still got some drugs in my system, but im being refilled", you're talking about going from normal to 100% totally, supernaturally immune to drugs in an instant. There's a big difference.

In which case, Impervious to Poison is the ultimate anti-Juicer spell. I'm going to invent a ranged version so I don't have to touch them, but it apparently throws them into instant detox, without a save, for 5 minutes a level.

Gods help the Juicer who fights a technowizard with a JuicerStopper gun, huh? One application of Impervious to Poison and they are thrown into instant, sweating, agony.

OR, you can actually look at the Juicer detoxification process. Step 1 of a full detox is major surgery to remove the bio-comp, and destroy the drug harness. "Surgery, preferably
performed by a cyber-doc, is necessary." Specifically, without removing the bio-comp, because "even without the drug harness, the system stimulates the body to create natural hormones and chemicals to unnatural and ultimately deadly proportions." (quotes are from RUE p. 80, RMB p. 69-70).

A temporary interruption of Juicer chemicals, even if psionically immune, is not going to send a juicer into detox. Bio-regeneration to repair the damage caused by those chemicals is designed to prolong life, not to make the juicer immortal. You don't detox then rejuice because the juicer process is expensive and time consuming, and it's usually cheaper to juice a new city rat every 3 years than to repeatedly juice and unjuice a psychic every 3.

And if your GM is fine with that go for it.
Its not book legal though.
Because NO TW device but those printed in the books is book legal.
All the rules lawyers out there building awesome game breaking devices with the charts in RUE forget that not a single one of their devices is book legal. None of them.
That is because they forget the step that says to discuss with their GM if the device fits their game and the like.

EDIT: Page 130 The all important first four paragraphs that get over looked all the time.
The steps 1-12 are not rules. They are guidelines to help the GM and Player make devices. People tend to forget that their awesome device of argument proving doesn't show anything but an ability to rules lawyer because the device isn't legal unless the GM for the game it is to be in says it is. This is why a 1ppe a gun that insta-kills juicers isn't a problem. because it is just as "possible" as all the other absurdities that have shown up over the years. Which is somewhere between Zero and None.

And on a related note there is evidence to suggest that you CAN resist a spell with "none" as a save if you do not wish to be affected. Certainly if the spell is turned into a weapon then it is no longer a healing spell and automatically stops getting the healing spell 'none' effect.

But as a demonstration of argumentation absurdum its a great example

As for the impervious to toxin psi power?
It would do absolutely nothing for the Juicer. Zip
The power says nothing about halting the effects of long term drugs, nor does the juicer write up say anything about the wear and tear being able to be paused for a few minutes here and there. Making your heart beat faster is making your heart beat faster. Muscle growth is muscle growth. You still have it, even if you use a psi power for a minute or two.

Just like bio-regeneration isn't going to do diddly to a juicer for its lifespan. Something that heals a few HP and closes cuts is not going to do squat for total systemic destructive alterations to the body. Per the books the ONLY way to stop or slow down such is to either use magic, totally detox, use Elder Race technology, or die.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

After reading the Cold-blooded OCC, i am of the opinion its a very viable end-game for a juicer.

You dont need to worry about detox, as the prociess literally kills you. When youre dead, the Bio-comp and harness become useless, and have no effect on a dead thing. The moment the Cold-blood process completes, you re-awaken/are re-animated as a quasi-undead supernatural being, and will bio-regenerate the remains of the harness and biocomp out of you.

I imagine thats painful, but its a small price to pay for not dying to Last Call.

[eliakon]

After reading the Cold-blooded OCC, i am of the opinion its a very viable end-game for a juicer.

You dont need to worry about detox, as the prociess literally kills you. When youre dead, the Bio-comp and harness become useless, and have no effect on a dead thing. The moment the Cold-blood process completes, you re-awaken/are re-animated as a quasi-undead supernatural being, and will bio-regenerate the remains of the harness and biocomp out of you.

I imagine thats painful, but its a small price to pay for not dying to Last Call.

Just remember

While there was rather spirited disagreement about whether or not a juicer could undergo the process without completing detox first or what stats would be used as the baseline, there is always the Cold-Blooded route. (To clarify, this extends the life of the character, though obviously not their time as a Juicer.)

As he said, there not much doubt you can use the process to survive... that is generally a given. There is however a great deal of debate on what the result would be. There is no consensus since the write up of the Cold-Blooded is so nebulous the information we have on juicers detoxing is so vague and the two of them intesecting make it even more hazy.

[drewkitty ~..~]

On to Psi powers and magic healing....
These do not effect the type of damage done by being a juicer. They only effect gross trauma like cuts, holes, and static shock damages (from explosions and high speed projectiles).

This is not the case with the minor psionic power of Bio-regeneration. Excerpts from the RMB description:

"This the ability to mentally heal oneself of disease, poison, or physical damage..."

...snip

The problem with saying that it heals "...disease, poison..." is that there is no mechanic within the power's text that tells how that works. And the power could effect the drugs that are based off of poisons used in their drug harness.

The only mechanic within the power's text talks about how to heal "physical damage and injury". And then it just talks about how much HP or SDC it heals, external and on the macro scale.
Even the "cuts and scrapes" are macro damage, even thou they are not full points.

Due to the concepts behind psionic abilities, the psion has to be aware of what damage is there, they can't heal the wearing out damage that comes from getting old or abusive lifestyles which is internal and in the early stages on the micro scale.
However, to include this ability to heal the wearing out damage that comes from getting old or abusive lifestyles needs a GM to rule that way. AKA a house rule.

The only type of psion I might rule on a generalized ruling that they could fix old age and abusive damage on themselves would be the healer PCCs in the PF2 MB and the BTS2 MB.

Then there is the core concepts between psions and juicers being in conflict. One is at least in part about being contemplative while the other is about never stop moving, ever.
--------
@hotrod
1; murder wraith are no longer alive
7: vampires are also no longer alive
3: NPCs while technically alive within the game they are not playable.
4: Pyramids only stop aging, and they tie the char to one spot.
5: time dilation/stasis: the char is not longer living life, they are just sleeping.
8: you didn't site the location

Coldblooded....would be changing from a juicer...and not living anymore.
--------
@ NM
There are many drugs that 'are' poisons. It is just that they are ""watered down"" to the point that they don't kill. So Anti-poison powers/magic can possibly effect a juicer if a GM wishes it to.
Thou, using the purify spell would be a better core spell then resist poison/toxins. even thou it is a higher level spell.

@ eli
This particular item was, as I took it, was in response to the ""mess with juicers by causing them to go into detox for a time"" thing that came up.
Yes, I agree that char made items are not book legal, but they can be game legal for the game they are in if the GM okays them.

Even so the Imp to P/T psi power is on self only.
And the spell Imp to P (in RUE) does not say it effects drugs.

[Hotrod]

@hotrod
1; murder wraith are no longer alive
7: vampires are also no longer alive
3: NPCs while technically alive within the game they are not playable.
4: Pyramids only stop aging, and they tie the char to one spot.
5: time dilation/stasis: the char is not longer living life, they are just sleeping.
8: you didn't site the location

1 & 7: Are the undead alive? That's almost a philosophical question. They can be killed, so in a sense, yes, but in another, no.
3: Rule zero says that NPCs can become PC's, but Rule zero sort of invalidates a lot of things. Regardless, there are NPCs that can be played by design (Land of the Damned 1) and PCs that have become published NPCs (Coake, for instance, who is also inexplicably immortal).
4: Both valid points. I wasn't searching for a perfect solution.
5: In the case of stasis, yes, they're sleeping. In time dilation, they aren't, even if the effect is the same. It depends on your perspective.
8: Wolfen Empire, the Pirate Treasure adventure (Arr!).

[Killer Cyborg]

For those talking about using anti-poison spells/psionics against juicers do keep in mind that technically the drugs that empower them AREN'T poisons. Sure the long-term effects of the drugs are toxic from the stresses on the body but they aren't actually poisons. They act to enhance the body in some fashion, to try and rate them as poisons you're using an expansion of the definition that would make the spell work against EVERYTHING since everything can be poisonous in the wrong dosages, including oxygen and water.

Poison = a substance that is capable of causing the illness or death of a living organism when introduced or absorbed.
Juicer drugs qualify, as most drugs do.

If you want to argue that the spell protects you from oxygen and water, I'm not going to argue with you. If a character is under the effects of that spell when they take in enough O2 or CO2 to be poisonous, then I don't see any problem with the spell preventing damage/effects.