Stone Master PC question

[Atroxadventurer]

How big does a small pyramid have to be for a PC Stone Master to utilize?
Large pyramids would seemingly be more expensive, labor intensive, and draw a lot of attention just about anywhere..

If smaller ones could be built, this would be much more useful and fun, would also possibly bring pyramids more easily into adventures.

[ShadowLogan]

Per Text in WB2 pg104 point number 4 "Even a small pyramid is typically the equivalent to a five to ten story building (never any smaller)." On the bullet list for Pyramid MDC they even give a height range for each size category of pyramid.

Now that just tells how how tall the Pyramid has to be, it doesn't tell us anything about the base area. So if you pick the right inclination angle for the sloping side to follow you could reduce the base area and meet the technical definition of a pyramid, though you might not meet the spirit/intent of the definition of a pyramid the Stone Master is supposed to use (which I suspect is supposed to be between 40 and 60degrees or the range for Egyptian pyramids).

[Atroxadventurer]

Ok, cool. In the spirit of trying to be tactical-minded, and hide pyramid from casual observers, I'm thinking that it could be underground and/or inverted.
A 5 story pyramid, even out in middle of wilderness or out West, would still be likely to be found or hijacked lol.

[Shark_Force]

Ok, cool. In the spirit of trying to be tactical-minded, and hide pyramid from casual observers, I'm thinking that it could be underground and/or inverted.
A 5 story pyramid, even out in middle of wilderness or out West, would still be likely to be found or hijacked lol.

there are spells that could easily make the pyramid appear to be a large tree-covered hill. you might need to add on a few structures to obscure the straight lines, but that's about it.

of course, the stone master (last i checked) doesn't get access to those spells, but they're common invocation magic and it seems reasonable that if the new pyramid rules don't suck (i haven't read them, but i've heard they're an improvement) the stone master would have little difficulty convincing some form of regular spellcaster to live there and provide the spells.

alternately, i'm sure a techno-wizard device could be built for the same purpose.

i don't think it could be inverted (you can't build a tiny foundation and a huge top), but the question of whether it needs to be above ground (or, if it must be above ground, can it be in water?) is not discussed that i can recall. i would be inclined to require it to be a freestanding structure, but personally, if you can create or find a sufficiently large area underground that you could have a freestanding pyramid there (and if the ley line reaches down far enough), i'd say you could build a pyramid there. i would also allow underwater pyramids, though obviously that won't be of equal use for everyone

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

IIRC, there are a few examples of pyramids that are built, and then burried/turned into a hill in one of the world books. Im not 100% on that - its very much a “im sure i read this somewhere” feeling.

[Atroxadventurer]

Ok, cool. In the spirit of trying to be tactical-minded, and hide pyramid from casual observers, I'm thinking that it could be underground and/or inverted.
A 5 story pyramid, even out in middle of wilderness or out West, would still be likely to be found or hijacked lol.

there are spells that could easily make the pyramid appear to be a large tree-covered hill. you might need to add on a few structures to obscure the straight lines, but that's about it.

of course, the stone master (last i checked) doesn't get access to those spells, but they're common invocation magic and it seems reasonable that if the new pyramid rules don't suck (i haven't read them, but i've heard they're an improvement) the stone master would have little difficulty convincing some form of regular spellcaster to live there and provide the spells.

alternately, i'm sure a techno-wizard device could be built for the same purpose.

i don't think it could be inverted (you can't build a tiny foundation and a huge top), but the question of whether it needs to be above ground (or, if it must be above ground, can it be in water?) is not discussed that i can recall. i would be inclined to require it to be a freestanding structure, but personally, if you can create or find a sufficiently large area underground that you could have a freestanding pyramid there (and if the ley line reaches down far enough), i'd say you could build a pyramid there. i would also allow underwater pyramids, though obviously that won't be of equal use for everyone

The TW item idea is a good one, might be a Biomancy way too. Underwater, also good idea. In a deep lake, yeah.
I figger a good team should have at least 1 other caster, but a TW would be awesome companion to SM.

[Atroxadventurer]

IIRC, there are a few examples of pyramids that are built, and then burried/turned into a hill in one of the world books. Im not 100% on that - its very much a “im sure i read this somewhere” feeling.

Reminds me of the supposed RL one in Bosnia or some Eastern European area. From the sky or ground, it does really just look like a HUGE hill. Same with ones in China, where I believe the TerraCotta statues were found.

That's a really good idea for "hidden in plain sight". Might be able to benefit a rural community nearby as well, in many ways.

Also, don't forget the underground caves/caverns mentioned in the BigBend area/West Texas/LoneStar, that supposedly have underground Lines running through some of them.

[Atroxadventurer]

IIRC, there are a few examples of pyramids that are built, and then burried/turned into a hill in one of the world books. Im not 100% on that - its very much a “im sure i read this somewhere” feeling.

Reminds me of the supposed RL one in Bosnia or some Eastern European area. From the sky or ground, it does really just look like a HUGE hill. Same with ones in China, where I believe the TerraCotta statues were found.

That's a really good idea for "hidden in plain sight". Might be able to benefit a rural community nearby as well, in many ways.

Also, don't forget the underground caves/caverns mentioned in the BigBend area/West Texas/LoneStar, that supposedly have underground Lines running through some of them.

Perfect candidates for that nearby town would be older/retired warriors/adventurers. They could benefit, but also work as part-time protectors.

[eliakon]

Ok, cool. In the spirit of trying to be tactical-minded, and hide pyramid from casual observers, I'm thinking that it could be underground and/or inverted.
A 5 story pyramid, even out in middle of wilderness or out West, would still be likely to be found or hijacked lol.

In the final analysis there isn't a way to hide a pyramid.
They mess with the ley lines around them meaning that as soon as anyone gets with in a number of miles (that I didnt look up) they will know that the line is locked down... and that means that if they follow it, they will find a pyramid.

And there is the fact that any Stone Master can basically find and travel to any other pyramid.

There is a spell in a few other lines called Circle of Concealment, it might help as a huge ritual casting might allow you to basically put a SEP field on the whole thing.

[Atroxadventurer]

Ok, cool. In the spirit of trying to be tactical-minded, and hide pyramid from casual observers, I'm thinking that it could be underground and/or inverted.
A 5 story pyramid, even out in middle of wilderness or out West, would still be likely to be found or hijacked lol.

In the final analysis there isn't a way to hide a pyramid.
They mess with the ley lines around them meaning that as soon as anyone gets with in a number of miles (that I didnt look up) they will know that the line is locked down... and that means that if they follow it, they will find a pyramid.

And there is the fact that any Stone Master can basically find and travel to any other pyramid.

There is a spell in a few other lines called Circle of Concealment, it might help as a huge ritual casting might allow you to basically put a SEP field on the whole thing.

Sure, a skilled Spellcaster, especially an SM or Shifter probably could. I'm more thinking of hiding it from the other 90% that don't have that ability, ie bandits, monsters, etc.

[Atroxadventurer]

Ok, cool. In the spirit of trying to be tactical-minded, and hide pyramid from casual observers, I'm thinking that it could be underground and/or inverted.
A 5 story pyramid, even out in middle of wilderness or out West, would still be likely to be found or hijacked lol.

In the final analysis there isn't a way to hide a pyramid.
They mess with the ley lines around them meaning that as soon as anyone gets with in a number of miles (that I didnt look up) they will know that the line is locked down... and that means that if they follow it, they will find a pyramid.

And there is the fact that any Stone Master can basically find and travel to any other pyramid.

There is a spell in a few other lines called Circle of Concealment, it might help as a huge ritual casting might allow you to basically put a SEP field on the whole thing.

Sure, a skilled Spellcaster, especially an SM or Shifter probably could. I'm more thinking of hiding it from the other 90% that don't have that ability, ie bandits, monsters, etc.

Visually, it shouldn't effect LL at all, would just be seen as rolling along landscape, just like normal. As far as I know, it doesn't change the appearance of LL visually, just possibly "tames" it a bit.
Talking casual observation, which in most cases, would be what would happen.

That "Circle if Concealment" sounds useful for sure.
Nothing in RIFTS is ever 100% safe/secure, which is part of the fun!
But I'd rather take a calculated risk for some benefits, than not.

[ShadowLogan]

Dusting off some trig skills (yeah) and doing some math. IINM Assuming a square pyramid base, the smallest base you can have for a 100ft pyramid is ~22ft on one side (~493ft^2), with a slope angle of 80deg. (Note I looked at 5deg increments between 5 and 85 deg, along with 1 and 89deg, so there might be a smaller base possible outside the range).

Ok, cool. In the spirit of trying to be tactical-minded, and hide pyramid from casual observers, I'm thinking that it could be underground and/or inverted.
A 5 story pyramid, even out in middle of wilderness or out West, would still be likely to be found or hijacked lol.

Inverted no. Underground might be possible given the right conditions.

In the wilderness it would depend on the type of wilderness and the general location. There are still undiscovered archeological sites that we don't know about today because of location/wilderness. So discovery by a casual observer is not as much an issue I think given the right location and conditions.

But as others have pointed out the Pyramid will have an impact on the Ley Line. Those who can tap the Ley Line for energy will notice. Even the casual observer if they are in the area long enough might note peculiarities (if Weather control is used, or the frequency of Random Rifts/Ley Line Storms having gone down, or the loss of "tourists" coming to use the Ley Line or "disgruntled tourists" coming to use the Ley Line say something).

The Stone Master could engage in some deceptive tasks, like building non-functional pyramids as decoys (w/n 5miles), since only the first pyramid will function the others will be duds. You could also build other structures around the pyramid to obscure it, these can be actual buildings to just walls (w/ or w/o towers) or just big rocks placed at "random" to help obscure the pyramid.

A TW device would cut down on the number of people who know the location. An TW device would allow a lot more options, but causes a potential issue if a Ley Line Device could operate in a Pyramid control zone, but if it can... That opens up a lot of options (illusionary terrain, invisibility, etc).

[kaid]

Also given how fast stone masters can work one option would be to simply raise small hills around the pyramid to visually mask it from reasonable distances. Given it is going to be on a nexus the stone master will have plenty of power to work with to do this given some time. Also note that even making a 5 story tall pyramid does not take as long as one might think if a stone master is working on it because again it is at a nexus so their ability to move massive amounts of stone around gets pretty crazy. The fiddly bits of the pyramid take longer but the basic structure goes up faster than you would think.

[Library Ogre]

Also given how fast stone masters can work one option would be to simply raise small hills around the pyramid to visually mask it from reasonable distances. Given it is going to be on a nexus the stone master will have plenty of power to work with to do this given some time. Also note that even making a 5 story tall pyramid does not take as long as one might think if a stone master is working on it because again it is at a nexus so their ability to move massive amounts of stone around gets pretty crazy. The fiddly bits of the pyramid take longer but the basic structure goes up faster than you would think.

Though, I will add that how long it takes is also going to be a function of local geology. You want to make a pyramid in the Ozarks, you can do it by carving away the rock you don't need. If you want to manage it in Houston, you're going to need a sizable source of stone (the bedrock can be more than 100 feet down, as near as I can figure)

[kaid]

Yes it depends where you are building but if there is a nexus even dredging stone up from bedrock is still something a stone master could do pretty rapidly. One option in that case is simply dig down move the dirt/soil out for the way until you hit bedrock then build there. This is sort of the "buried pyramid" option where it is not so much burried as it is build in the depression made to get down to bedrock and the excess soil can be built up in a ring of mounds/hills to further disguise the pyramid from causal long range detection.

[Atroxadventurer]

Also given how fast stone masters can work one option would be to simply raise small hills around the pyramid to visually mask it from reasonable distances. Given it is going to be on a nexus the stone master will have plenty of power to work with to do this given some time. Also note that even making a 5 story tall pyramid does not take as long as one might think if a stone master is working on it because again it is at a nexus so their ability to move massive amounts of stone around gets pretty crazy. The fiddly bits of the pyramid take longer but the basic structure goes up faster than you would think.

Though, I will add that how long it takes is also going to be a function of local geology. You want to make a pyramid in the Ozarks, you can do it by carving away the rock you don't need. If you want to manage it in Houston, you're going to need a sizable source of stone (the bedrock can be more than 100 feet down, as near as I can figure)

Houston no Bueno, but Texas Hill Country and Big Bend areas would be great, even deep woods East Texas if you could find a LL.

Thanks for replies, some interesting ideas to try out