Getting enough PPE to cast the big spells

[drazool]

I'm not very familiar with spell caster types, myself. I'm sure that there are some easy answers to these questions!

Lets say I'm trying to make a munchkin shifter, but for whatever reason I want to use something close to a basic human, and I want my character to be good, or at least selfish. What are some ways that a just-born character can gather 500 PPE together? There are a number of methods that I can think of, but they almost all require some level of DM allowance.

My best guess, at the moment, is to be something like a true atlantean, which is at least close to a human, make a pact with a god of magic, which hopefully gets me high enough to cast a spirit orb, meditate up to full PPE again, cast spirit orb again, only this time using up the energy in the orb, allowing me to store more. After a few repetitions, it would be possible to start casting talisman. rinse/repeat over a few weeks, and it's not inconceivable for a wizard to have several hundred/thousand PPE stored up in talismans.

Caveat: I can't remember where I just found and read that spirit orb spell, but I am sure that I read it.

[drazool]

doh! i just found it. You just need to have enough PPE to cast energy sphere and have a little left over. Energy sphere costs 120, and you can store up to 100 ppe in it, but it only lasts a few days. this will work, though, if I can get a caster with a certain minimum, but I will need to work out exactly how much that is. lets see, first stab would be that the minimum should be enough that with a full sphere, you get 100 PPE to use, so I think 150 PPE is needed for this trick.

Don't quote me, though. I need to do some thinking to figure out exactly how this would work.

[kaid]

Basically your bootstrapping to big spells tends to involve energy sphere and or abusing amulet creation on a ley line or nexus. Blood sacrifice also works as does pooling PPE from others in a ritual.

[eliakon]

Any use of large amounts of magic will require a GM buy in. As GMs tend to get... unhappy when players try to exploit loopholes. Note it is only exploiting a loophole if its not cool with the table. If the table is fine with it, then its just another rule. Sort of the Feature/Bug thing.

That being said and out of the way, as you noted basically given the spells Energy Orb and Talisman and access to a Ley Line and a player can store as much PPE as they like in 50PPE increments.
It will depend on your GM if you can tap more than one talisman at a time though.
Another use for the Energy Orb is in ritual magic. Simply make some fully charged orbs and hand them to your friends, each of which can, presumably, carry two. Then you make yours and you all work together to cast a ritual.
You can tap into a portion of their PPE... and if your GM buys into it that means that since they are tapping into their orbs (and possibly a talisman) that they can send over the drawn upon energy.

[drazool]

A couple of notes: I will be the GM, and I'm just trying to get a handle on the levels of theoretical power a level 1 humanish caster would be capable of. Assuming best possible rolls on shifter + pact we're looking at
120 + PE, so lets call it 140 PPE, plus another 100 from his pact. Again, these are maximum numbers.

With 240 PPE base, at level one, he could afford to fill an energy sphere on day one, another sphere on day two, then use them up to create two energy spheres on day 3, another on day 4 (using only base PPE), then by day 5, have three full energy spheres plus his base, which is enough to cast talisman. Of course, you cast it in its magic battery form. Now you have a permanent one that holds 50 PPE. Rinse/repeat except now your return on investment is better, since talisman can be recharged for cheaper. Major caveat here is the number of energy spheres a given individual can have.

rinse repeat this process over a few days/weeks/months, and you now have access to potentially extremely high amounts of PPE.

The other reason to know this is to have this information from a storytelling / game logic perspective, and to be able to say, with a straight face, "oh, there are ways"

[kaid]

Also if you are sitting at a nexus or ley line you can absorb and hold more than normal PPE levels for short periods of time so somebody with a large base like 240 PPE is going to be able to cast some pretty major spells while at a ley line/nexus without any amulet/energy sphere shenanigans.

[Eagle]

Look at the rules for drawing PPE from ley lines. I don't have them with me, but you'd want to reference them. I think you can draw 10 points of PPE per minute. I don't remember how much you can hold above your normal limit though.

[eliakon]

A couple of notes: I will be the GM, and I'm just trying to get a handle on the levels of theoretical power a level 1 humanish caster would be capable of. Assuming best possible rolls on shifter + pact we're looking at
120 + PE, so lets call it 140 PPE, plus another 100 from his pact. Again, these are maximum numbers.

With 240 PPE base, at level one, he could afford to fill an energy sphere on day one, another sphere on day two, then use them up to create two energy spheres on day 3, another on day 4 (using only base PPE), then by day 5, have three full energy spheres plus his base, which is enough to cast talisman. Of course, you cast it in its magic battery form. Now you have a permanent one that holds 50 PPE. Rinse/repeat except now your return on investment is better, since talisman can be recharged for cheaper. Major caveat here is the number of energy spheres a given individual can have.

rinse repeat this process over a few days/weeks/months, and you now have access to potentially extremely high amounts of PPE.

The other reason to know this is to have this information from a storytelling / game logic perspective, and to be able to say, with a straight face, "oh, there are ways"

Ahhh, yeah. That makes it a lot easier.
Then you can safely break out all sorts of shenanigans that are rules legal, if barely just, and run with them. Transfer ISP psionic ability, creative uses of Life Fuel, some of the various backgrounds and skill and stuff...
So yeah, if a person really wants to cast a big spell, and they can get the needed spells? Its just a matter of how long it will take to stock up enough energy.

[taalismn]

Sacrifice your friends. It's why you hang around with them in the first place, right?

[drazool]

well, with create magic scroll, energy sphere, talisman, and access to a ley-line, all of which can be achieved at level 1, it's possible and in some ways easy to develop enough PPE to stash copies of energy sphere with enough PPE to get a full 100 PPE boost in a talisman. in addition, you can just make talismans, use PPE from ley-lines, and more. Some other stuff I've read seems to indicate that you can hold up to 3x your base PPE for a number of minutes equal to your PE score, and that you can channel up to 600 PPE through your body per level from another source, for example a large magical battery, or a sacrifice, a cult, etc.

Add to this any minions summoned who will be "willing" participants in spell rituals, etc, the ultimate limit on how much PPE you could start a level one dude with is basically "How many years/months/weeks are you willing to spend building up your PPE reserves?".

Even skipping any kind of minion, however, you can still gain basically arbitrary amounts of PPE with the simple expenditure of time. Finally, if you add to this the possibility of dimensional teleport to the outer astral realm, you could spend years honing your magical skills, having never aged, and with tens of thousands of PPE stored away in talismans, although this might first require DM approval.

Even without that, however, you could simply say that your adventurer spends one day/week recharging TW items for cash, lives in a hovel, and has spent the last decade of his life churning out a talisman once per week, while working off and on as a magical DJ or something. He now has 10 decks of ordinary playing cards... each one with 50 PPE stored in it.

So the limit isn't really about what is possible, rather what is reasonable. What kind of mind spends ten years developing a storehouse of PPE? Should you make a player like this roll a couple of times on the insanity tables? Maybe just give them "obsession: gain eldritch power" right out of the gate!

Of course, stepping back from the REAL ULTIMATE POWER quest for a minute can make a much more well rounded and reasonable character. He spend the last several months gathering his power, and kitting himself out with a useful array of powers. He might even have spent the incredible effort of getting a dimensional portal spell into a talisman, for an emergency return ticket home. He probably has a couple of amulets, several scrolls with useful spells encoded, and he might even have one or two talismans in spell battery mode. This nets you a character with an interesting, well rounded set of powers, a bit of a backstory "spent months getting his kit together, and is now raring to go on a dimensional adventure!" and even a bit of a personality "little bit paranoid, crazy prepared".

I can see why a spell caster type would be fun!

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

well, with create magic scroll, energy sphere, talisman, and access to a ley-line, all of which can be achieved at level 1, it's possible and in some ways easy to develop enough PPE to stash copies of energy sphere with enough PPE to get a full 100 PPE boost in a talisman. in addition, you can just make talismans, use PPE from ley-lines, and more. Some other stuff I've read seems to indicate that you can hold up to 3x your base PPE for a number of minutes equal to your PE score, and that you can channel up to 600 PPE through your body per level from another source, for example a large magical battery, or a sacrifice, a cult, etc.

Add to this any minions summoned who will be "willing" participants in spell rituals, etc, the ultimate limit on how much PPE you could start a level one dude with is basically "How many years/months/weeks are you willing to spend building up your PPE reserves?".

Even skipping any kind of minion, however, you can still gain basically arbitrary amounts of PPE with the simple expenditure of time. Finally, if you add to this the possibility of dimensional teleport to the outer astral realm, you could spend years honing your magical skills, having never aged, and with tens of thousands of PPE stored away in talismans, although this might first require DM approval.

Even without that, however, you could simply say that your adventurer spends one day/week recharging TW items for cash, lives in a hovel, and has spent the last decade of his life churning out a talisman once per week, while working off and on as a magical DJ or something. He now has 10 decks of ordinary playing cards... each one with 50 PPE stored in it.

So the limit isn't really about what is possible, rather what is reasonable. What kind of mind spends ten years developing a storehouse of PPE? Should you make a player like this roll a couple of times on the insanity tables? Maybe just give them "obsession: gain eldritch power" right out of the gate!

Of course, stepping back from the REAL ULTIMATE POWER quest for a minute can make a much more well rounded and reasonable character. He spend the last several months gathering his power, and kitting himself out with a useful array of powers.

This is more likely; though as he gets more adventuring under his belt he's likely to want to make sure he's always got enough PPE on hand to use what he needs.

He might even have spent the incredible effort of getting a dimensional portal spell into a talisman,

Talisman only holds 8th and down.

for an emergency return ticket home.

Shifters can always go home.

He probably has a couple of amulets, several scrolls with useful spells encoded, and he might even have one or two talismans in spell battery mode. This nets you a character with an interesting, well rounded set of powers, a bit of a backstory "spent months getting his kit together, and is now raring to go on a dimensional adventure!" and even a bit of a personality "little bit paranoid, crazy prepared".

I can see why a spell caster type would be fun!

As an example of what i'd consider "reasonable" - keep in mind this character is not first level.

I do not partake in any long-term campaigns (the few groups i know that play Rifts live nowhere near me), but i cameo a few times a year in two different campaigns when im visiting friends.

The character is a Wolfen Techno-Wizard; technically he's a "Space Wolfen" from the Phase World setting. As a TW, he's essentially the company armorer in the UWW's Warlock Marines. He and several other Warlock Marines were trapped on earth when their party was ambushed returning home from Tolkeen (they were there to offer Tolkeen the UWWs assistance in abandoning the planet, which they of course, declined) to the Three Galaxies.

I try to keep his gear "reasonable" for campaigns that i might drop into. As a 4th (almost 5th) level TW, he has 130 personal PPE. This, unfortunately, isn't really enough to cast a lot of beneficial magic, or even activate a lot of TW devices. (I am.. not a fan of the RUE TW creation rules which allow almost any device to have a PPE battery). Consequently, he keeps a supply of PPE Talismans; in this case, built into his armor. He's wearing a modified Dog Boy Riot Armor (the non-environmental kind) with lots of upgrades, including slots inside the breastplate and backplate for Talismans. (In this case, obviously-tech-magic-looking battery devices from the Three Galaxies). He generally keeps a total of 7 (4 in the backplate, 3 in the breastplate) for 350 extra PPE.

Ive found this is a "reasonable" amount of PPE to keep on-hand for "daily usage". If i know we're going into a hot situation, then ill stop by a Ley Line or spend a day building up an Energy Sphere, but only if the GM has been obvious about "stuff is about to go down"; He doesn't walk around with an Energy Sphere floating over his shoulder 24/7.

His armor is TW-enhanced with Impervious To Energy, Armor Bizarre, Armor of Ithan and Energy Field

a TW-enhanced cloak that has Invisibility (Simple), Invisibility (Superior), and Invisibility to Sensors - ive held off on adding Mystic Invisibility as well, as it seems like its a bit over the top.

The boots/armor greaves (from a different set of armor) are enhanced with Superhuman Speed, Magical-Adrenal Rush, and Superhuman Agility.

For weapons he carries a TW Shard Pistol (Tolkeen version, no PPE cliip), a TX-5 Pump Pistol (2 spare quick loaders, more ammo in backpack), Q-44 "Drummer" Double-barrel shotgun with Ramjet, Frag, and Plasma rounds (usually 2 drums of Ramjets, 1 drum each of plasma and frag + 1 drum in the gun), and an NG-P7 particle beam rifle.

The pistols are held in magnetic release holsters on the thigh plates; the 2 spare quick loaders bracket in on each side of the TX-5; either the NG-P7 or Q-44 is carried/slung at the ready, and the other is mounted to the side of the hard backpack; the 4 spare drums of shotgun rounds are built into the bottom of the backpack, and spare eclips for the NG-P7 are carried on a traditional ammo bandolier.

For melee he has a TW Flaming Sword and a Lightblade (ironically, that was found as loot), and a Kisentite short sword (attached to the other side of the backpack, used more as a machette than anything else).

He drives a TW-converted (formerly electric) Wastelander motorcycle; it has no weapons and its only TW enhancement other than the engine is Energy Field.

Also owns (but does not commonly carry unless the job/mission/what-have-you might call for him to swap out one of the above weapons with one of these) a C-29 Plasma Cannon (with a few spare cannisters), a JA-11 rifle (for long range sniping), and an NG-45 LP (which he will sub out with the TX-5 if he knows that he wont need the "isnt an energy weapon" property of the pump rounds). Several vibro blades, as well.

Now, at first level:

No talismans (TWs cant start with it), Armor would be reduced to Armor of Ithan, Energy Field, and Impervious to Energy (you cant start with it, but you start with the spell, so can immediately just upgrade your armor...), cloak wold have Shadow Meld and Invisibility (Simple), and the Boots would have only Superhuman Speed.

TW Flaming Sword (viable starting equipment) but no Lightblade, and the Shard Pistol and NG-P7; the Q-44 if the GM allowed it (or it might even be viable starting equip; haven't checked TW in a while).

[Shark_Force]

it is worth noting that while a shifter could theoretically have the spells to make scrolls, talismans, amulets, etc at level 1, it's fairly improbable. they don't start with that knowledge by default, and only energy sphere is on the list of spells they can choose from regardless of spell level, so while a particularly fortunate shifter could theoretically know those other spells at level 1, it is quite unlikely.

unless, of course, they got it from a pact, which afaict can only come from a pact with a god of magic, and i can only imagine the god in question has some fairly specific requirements on the shifter. at a guess, most won't be terribly excited to make a pact with someone who is just going to spend months at a time doing nothing useful on a ley line... heck, the description almost tells you to make the character play it out before you get the benefits of the pact =P

really, if you want someone who can reliably pull this off from level 1 without some fairly sketchy stuff happening, use a temporal wizard from rifts england. they can start off with spells of any level and learn spells of any level when they level up.

[Killer Cyborg]

People get so fancy when looking for PPE.
Just get a cult or a group of volunteers, hold hands, and Presto.

[dreicunan]

People get so fancy when looking for PPE.
Just get a cult or a group of volunteers, hold hands, and Presto.

A Summon Presto spell would definitely liven up the campaign!

[Nightmartree]

Sacrifice your friends. It's why you hang around with them in the first place, right?

That's horrible...if I sacrifice them who will be my meat shields and shock troopers?

personally though its not really lvl 1 or human...I want to do an immortal from heroes rifted in, they have a major/magic option, max your level roll for a 5th lvl multiple selves, that's 5 selves plus you all mages. Its also book legal, and if you step up to say a godling? divine aura makes a cult just a few steps away (if you also make a case for EACH of your selves managing to sway additional followers...then you might have a cult even without trying)

magic ritual anyone? just don't drink the cool aid, that's for the demons

(or a slightly different idea, one I used with a non magic immortal was simply...got stuck, when the rifts opened his underground research lab was hit by the earthquakes but it broke his blast proof door, and destabilized the surrounding earth. He can't open the door from the inside, and if he blasts it or tries to mine out the sides the surrounding rock could shift destroying his lab and burying him alive...so he has spent the centuries since the rifts opened stuck in his bunker building straight down with robots minions and waiting for someone to open the door and release him.)

[drazool]

Its like, if I wanted my character to be a font of deific power, sure. I mean, why stop there? REAL ULTIMATE POWER is just a few steps away.

Really, I'm more interested in determining what a motivated human mage could get done at low levels of experience, and the answer is, quite a lot, actually! I was trying to understand how a human mage would ever be able to access these spells with super high PPE cost, and I have developed a pretty solid understanding of how. A mage could get a lot of mileage out of create magic scroll and energy sphere, a huuuge amount of mileage out of a few magical friends, or even a few volunteers. Finally, just hanging out on a ley-line for a while is a great way to get to a bunch of high-ppe requirement spells. Obviously, there are other ways of getting truly stupendous amounts of PPE, and stacking a single guy with power, but I'm trying to develop a reasonable set-point for my players.

[Nightmartree]

Its like, if I wanted my character to be a font of deific power, sure. I mean, why stop there? REAL ULTIMATE POWER is just a few steps away.

Really, I'm more interested in determining what a motivated human mage could get done at low levels of experience, and the answer is, quite a lot, actually! I was trying to understand how a human mage would ever be able to access these spells with super high PPE cost, and I have developed a pretty solid understanding of how. A mage could get a lot of mileage out of create magic scroll and energy sphere, a huuuge amount of mileage out of a few magical friends, or even a few volunteers. Finally, just hanging out on a ley-line for a while is a great way to get to a bunch of high-ppe requirement spells. Obviously, there are other ways of getting truly stupendous amounts of PPE, and stacking a single guy with power, but I'm trying to develop a reasonable set-point for my players.

of course...anyone can make a god, its just if your discussing a starting out character with access to the most magical OOMPH that's book legal without stretching the rules...an immortal mage is the best i'm aware of. If you just want a lvl 1 mage human to get some magic power? high MA and PB and work that cult mentality, pull in the young and insecure, be there for them, support them, make your cult a "family" and grow stronger as their PPE becomes your strength, cults are only bad because they trick and deceive the vulnerable, don't lie, trick or deceive, support them, aid them, make deals with them, draw them in and have them aid you willingly. Then the only limit to your power? is how many you can sway to your side.

[drazool]

Its like, if I wanted my character to be a font of deific power, sure. I mean, why stop there? REAL ULTIMATE POWER is just a few steps away.

Really, I'm more interested in determining what a motivated human mage could get done at low levels of experience, and the answer is, quite a lot, actually! I was trying to understand how a human mage would ever be able to access these spells with super high PPE cost, and I have developed a pretty solid understanding of how. A mage could get a lot of mileage out of create magic scroll and energy sphere, a huuuge amount of mileage out of a few magical friends, or even a few volunteers. Finally, just hanging out on a ley-line for a while is a great way to get to a bunch of high-ppe requirement spells. Obviously, there are other ways of getting truly stupendous amounts of PPE, and stacking a single guy with power, but I'm trying to develop a reasonable set-point for my players.

of course...anyone can make a god, its just if your discussing a starting out character with access to the most magical OOMPH that's book legal without stretching the rules...an immortal mage is the best i'm aware of. If you just want a lvl 1 mage human to get some magic power? high MA and PB and work that cult mentality, pull in the young and insecure, be there for them, support them, make your cult a "family" and grow stronger as their PPE becomes your strength, cults are only bad because they trick and deceive the vulnerable, don't lie, trick or deceive, support them, aid them, make deals with them, draw them in and have them aid you willingly. Then the only limit to your power? is how many you can sway to your side.

That would actually be a really fun thing to play. Honestly with a few tweaks to help the rest of the group fit in and not live in the shadow of the caster it could be a really fun thing to GM, too.

[Nightmartree]

That would actually be a really fun thing to play. Honestly with a few tweaks to help the rest of the group fit in and not live in the shadow of the caster it could be a really fun thing to GM, too.

I like having an organization, it helps if the players have an edge on the NPCs. Even if that edge is only that they are professionals/adventurers. With the cult idea I just generated in fact the hard part isn't making sure that the NPCs/Magic caster doesn't overshadow the party, but rather taking care of your followers (many of whom are normal people) when that demon decides to assault you, or what about infiltration from enemies or shapeshifters? its nice to have a base that ensures you have PPE for rituals, food and daily needs tended to while your away, but you gotta be careful and nurture them...I mean what happens if the CS suddenly sends a division to train right by your little cult? or if your in some place like tolkeen...Cults? please buddy you need at least medical care, equipment, demonic protectors and a retirement plan to get your foot in the door, its better to just go hire some professional batteries for a few hundred credits. And if they aren't important to the story at this moment or you wanna focus on the other guys? have them evacuate or just be doing other things in the background (can't have a ritual every day, people have lives to lead. And that crack team of soldiers you trained up? currently they're hunting a rogue demon in the mountains nearby, there is always something for people to do)

Just because the Cult leader has to help his friends slay a god is no reason to get his followers killed

[taalismn]

Sacrifice your friends. It's why you hang around with them in the first place, right?

That's horrible...if I sacrifice them who will be my meat shields and shock troopers?)

In a word?
Zombies.

[Nightmartree]

Sacrifice your friends. It's why you hang around with them in the first place, right?

That's horrible...if I sacrifice them who will be my meat shields and shock troopers?)

In a word?
Zombies.

Zombies are my basic fodder, trust me, there is nothing quit so comforting as having a *name censored* to throw at your foes, i mean...we are discussing a guy who happily straps more explosives than god gave an infantry division to his body just so that if he has too he can set them all off and then walk out of the glass crater that used to be an army led by a god.

...okay, he doesn't normally carry quite that many (though would be more than happy to) but in a pinch we've been known to make them that big and he has a bad habit of being immune to fire and detonating a few hundred MDC of incediaries on himself. Its all about the right tool for the job, i happen to be my groups evil master mind (for good!), we have a monkey wrench for people plans, a skilled psychic (9 out of 10 random rolls have labeled him a psychic, out of the 1 remaining more than 1/2 have made him something besides a psychic...that then gets psychic powers as a potential sub category he promptly gets) and a walking engine of destruction. Honestly i need them living most times, i suck at combat.

Edit: actually if I could clone my fellow players and use them as an endless supply of minions...I wouldn't dare, the multiverse might implode

[taalismn]

[

Edit: actually if I could clone my fellow players and use them as an endless supply of minions...I wouldn't dare, the multiverse might implode

Or ego explosion...

"What's this I hear about you using that d-bee cloning machine to mass-produce me as your own faceless mook legion? Because I am TOTALLY alright with more and more of my AWESOMENESS."
"I edit the power of speech from them."

[Nightmartree]

[

Edit: actually if I could clone my fellow players and use them as an endless supply of minions...I wouldn't dare, the multiverse might implode

Or ego explosion...

"What's this I hear about you using that d-bee cloning machine to mass-produce me as your own faceless mook legion? Because I am TOTALLY alright with more and more of my AWESOMENESS."
"I edit the power of speech from them."

"That's okay, I always communicate better through EXPLOSIONS!" *pulls a grenade pin*

[taalismn]

[

"That's okay, I always communicate better through EXPLOSIONS!" *pulls a grenade pin*

Guy must be really fun at parties, during 'charades'.

[Nightmartree]

[

"That's okay, I always communicate better through EXPLOSIONS!" *pulls a grenade pin*

Guy must be really fun at parties, during 'charades'.

hmm idk, but I do know we aren't allowed to sit next to each other on game day, we tend to get excited and then...well...campaigns end? I do know most of the few party wipes or near wipes we've experienced are because of us going a bit too far on the "kill everything" agenda

[eliakon]

[

"That's okay, I always communicate better through EXPLOSIONS!" *pulls a grenade pin*

Guy must be really fun at parties, during 'charades'.

hmm idk, but I do know we aren't allowed to sit next to each other on game day, we tend to get excited and then...well...campaigns end? I do know most of the few party wipes or near wipes we've experienced are because of us going a bit too far on the "kill everything" agenda

*makes note to never play with the either of you*
*and makes note to keep the grenades inventoried*

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I think i can sum up what my earlier ramble was going for:

I would define "reasonable" as "can participate using their primary skills (in this case, magic) in most/all encounters that are planned for the session as long as they are intelligent".

As i find the spells most useful in encounters tend to be 20-45 PPE, i think for most casters, having PPE reserves around the ~400-500 total is reasonable. Now, this doesn't have to mean that that PPE is easily recoverable. Just that they have that on tap, and if they are intelligent in their use of spells, and their smaller pool of (more easily) renewable PPE, then they should be able to make it through the session contributing to encounters with magic.

Afterwards, you're going to need some downtime to re-create/re-charge some of those PPE reserves. Manage well.

[Nightmartree]

[

"That's okay, I always communicate better through EXPLOSIONS!" *pulls a grenade pin*

Guy must be really fun at parties, during 'charades'.

hmm idk, but I do know we aren't allowed to sit next to each other on game day, we tend to get excited and then...well...campaigns end? I do know most of the few party wipes or near wipes we've experienced are because of us going a bit too far on the "kill everything" agenda

*makes note to never play with the either of you*
*and makes note to keep the grenades inventoried*

Better change the code to the ships reactors too, and never let us board. Or any other potentially explosive vehicle.

[Shark_Force]

eh, mages don't need a huge reserve. e-clips and armour repairs are expensive. just the simple advantage of having armour of ithan (or similar spells) can make a huge difference when traveling in the wilderness.

[Axelmania]

Part of the problem is vaguaries regarding pooling PPE. Like you have that 'triple' related to PE (once hours, later minutes I think) which if you have 100 could arguably up to 300 or 400 depending on a "triple is +200%" vs "triple extra is +300%" stuff.

With that as a baseline: does casting w/ a talisman or w/ a ritual partner or w/ a tapped ley line ADD to that cap, or must you absorb those external sources into yourself first and then still cast based on original cap?

[Nightmartree]

Part of the problem is vaguaries regarding pooling PPE. Like you have that 'triple' related to PE (once hours, later minutes I think) which if you have 100 could arguably up to 300 or 400 depending on a "triple is +200%" vs "triple extra is +300%" stuff.

With that as a baseline: does casting w/ a talisman or w/ a ritual partner or w/ a tapped ley line ADD to that cap, or must you absorb those external sources into yourself first and then still cast based on original cap?

If I have my math right...triple is 3 times the base, so +200%. Unless it is add triple then it is +300%. Also I'm not 100% sure of what your saying but I believe that your referring to the MAX pool a mage can have including from external sources right? if so that answers itself, if not can I get more context?

[Axelmania]

It might just refer to long-term storage though. I'm not sure if the cap applies to pooling PPE during a ritual, harnessing a burst of PPE for immediate use from a blood sacrifice, tapping an Energy Sphere or a Talisman, etc.

[Nightmartree]

It might just refer to long-term storage though. I'm not sure if the cap applies to pooling PPE during a ritual, harnessing a burst of PPE for immediate use from a blood sacrifice, tapping an Energy Sphere or a Talisman, etc.

good point...i'd probably ignore long term storage for this, it's basically separated into a separate pool (I think). But i'd also say if your pulling PPE from a long term storage it would count towards the max?

honestly ya i'd like some clarification there...if its the max you can hold at any given moment numerous spells are basically impossible for most spellcasters to achieve even with rituals, leylines and followers. If its the most you can continously store then thats not a bad amount, would let a mage supercharge on a leyline while still being able to draw in additional points from sacrifice and groups to cast a big spell (as long as you did it RIGHT THEN). Or if a mage can NEVER have more than that then you've basically lost access to numerous high level magics that it seems like a mage or group of mages should be able to pull off with preparation.

[drazool]

It might just refer to long-term storage though. I'm not sure if the cap applies to pooling PPE during a ritual, harnessing a burst of PPE for immediate use from a blood sacrifice, tapping an Energy Sphere or a Talisman, etc.

good point...i'd probably ignore long term storage for this, it's basically separated into a separate pool (I think). But i'd also say if your pulling PPE from a long term storage it would count towards the max?

honestly ya i'd like some clarification there...if its the max you can hold at any given moment numerous spells are basically impossible for most spellcasters to achieve even with rituals, leylines and followers. If its the most you can continously store then thats not a bad amount, would let a mage supercharge on a leyline while still being able to draw in additional points from sacrifice and groups to cast a big spell (as long as you did it RIGHT THEN). Or if a mage can NEVER have more than that then you've basically lost access to numerous high level magics that it seems like a mage or group of mages should be able to pull off with preparation.

Someone mentioned that a mage is able to channel 600 PPE per level per melee from outside sources, at maximum. Even at level one, this amount dwarfs the amount that a typical mage could hold, even if charged from outside sources. So, high level entities, such as gods and lords of magic, are able to simply cast the spell. Mortals, however, typically require some extra steps.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Part of the problem is vagaries regarding pooling PPE. Like you have that 'triple' related to PE (once hours, later minutes I think) which if you have 100 could arguably up to 300 or 400 depending on a "triple is +200%" vs "triple extra is +300%" stuff.

With that as a baseline: does casting w/ a talisman or w/ a ritual partner or w/ a tapped ley line ADD to that cap, or must you absorb those external sources into yourself first and then still cast based on original cap?

If I have my math right...triple is 3 times the base, so +200%. Unless it is add triple then it is +300%. Also I'm not 100% sure of what your saying but I believe that your referring to the MAX pool a mage can have including from external sources right? if so that answers itself, if not can I get more context?

There is some dispute about what the text means. Some take the x3 base to mean that is the amount of gathered PPE that a mage can hold in and above their normal base PPE. Then others take it to mean that the x3 base it the total amount of PPE that can be held after gathering the extra PPE.
(Ask you own GM about his interpretation on this, before presuming one way or another about this.)

⁍ A Mage can tap any amount of PPE batteries when casting spells.
⁍ But any PPE gathered from Others ([unknowing,] willingly, forcibly, through killing), or from LL/LLN has to be gathered and held before it can be used.

Note that GMs might have the PPE batteries that contain high levels of PPE to draw in monsters or other interesting encounters.

[Axelmania]

Someone mentioned that a mage is able to channel 600 PPE per level per melee from outside sources, at maximum. Even at level one, this amount dwarfs the amount that a typical mage could hold, even if charged from outside sources. So, high level entities, such as gods and lords of magic, are able to simply cast the spell. Mortals, however, typically require some extra steps.

Anyone know where this originates? Drawing a blank.

if its the max you can hold at any given moment numerous spells are basically impossible for most spellcasters to achieve even with rituals, leylines and followers.

I don't really have a problem with that... but one explanation for "followers" IMO could be that if more than 1 knows the spell (or even more broadly, if more than 1 is a spellcaster even if they do not know the spell) that their own pools (and their own 3x PPE extra) can contribute without being counted as coming from the lead caster's maximum, because they can cast independently.

as long as you did it RIGHT THEN

How we define that is the problem.

Mages have a primary pool (never dissipates), and a secondary pool (PE in hours previously, now PE in minutes).

We are proposing some kind of tertiary pool. It would be nice if there was some kind of numerical cap on it (should a 1st level mage with 50 PPE be able to cast a 100,000 PPE spell like a god?) and we definitely need some kind of time cap on it.

Maybe another 3xPPE for PE in melee rounds? Or PE in seconds? Or perhaps ME in seconds to keep it interesting?

I always envisioned talismans taking a melee action to tap/draw so tapping multiple talismans simultaneously seems like it should cause some problems.

[drazool]

But it seems like we already have a ready made system to handle this, and that is in the form of rituals. Since invocations can be ritualized, just extend the casting of your spell to fit the amount of time it takes you to gather up enough PPE to cast it. You get the framework of the spell going, then start pumping PPE in. Some rituals would only take a few minutes, depending on how much PPE you need to pull from the environment, or your followers, cultists, etc.

Could your level 1 guy cast a 100000 PPE spell? Only if he has the physical and mental fortitude to channel ley line energy for 28 hours.

Say that the channeled PPE isn't contained within his body but is being worked in to the spell. If the ritual is interrupted, give a chance to break the ritual, wasting all of the gathered PPE.

Then, as a GM, start writing 100,000 PPE spells. Something like 'Summon Hurricane'. Over the course of the ritual, have the storm gathering, building. It's getting windy and rainy, but no damage to structures, etc. Duration of the spell is 'Instant'. Once you're done casting the spell, there's just a hurricane there, doing its thing.

Other ideas: Volcano 500,000 PPE, Solar Lance 150,000 PPE, Block the Sun 100,000 PPE per day, Plague 150000 PPE, and Destabilize Nexus 15,000 PPE

[Atroxadventurer]

Have a Faerie minion instead of Demon, if that's allowed. ALOT of PPE.
I personally think Pucks are hawt, with that as a wingman, your Shifter will always be lucky lol.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

It might just refer to long-term storage though. I'm not sure if the cap applies to pooling PPE during a ritual, harnessing a burst of PPE for immediate use from a blood sacrifice, tapping an Energy Sphere or a Talisman, etc.

good point...i'd probably ignore long term storage for this, it's basically separated into a separate pool (I think). But i'd also say if your pulling PPE from a long term storage it would count towards the max?

honestly ya i'd like some clarification there...if its the max you can hold at any given moment numerous spells are basically impossible for most spellcasters to achieve even with rituals, leylines and followers. If its the most you can continously store then thats not a bad amount, would let a mage supercharge on a leyline while still being able to draw in additional points from sacrifice and groups to cast a big spell (as long as you did it RIGHT THEN). Or if a mage can NEVER have more than that then you've basically lost access to numerous high level magics that it seems like a mage or group of mages should be able to pull off with preparation.

Someone mentioned that a mage is able to channel 600 PPE per level per melee from outside sources, at maximum. Even at level one, this amount dwarfs the amount that a typical mage could hold, even if charged from outside sources. So, high level entities, such as gods and lords of magic, are able to simply cast the spell. Mortals, however, typically require some extra steps.

I couldnt find any mention of that in the BoM or RUE.