Psi sword and melee actions.

[(SHIFTY)]

I thought I read somewhere that Cyber Knights were so good at forming psi swords that it does not take up a action to form one. Provided it was not different colors or something other than a sword. Was this rule changed? Thanks!

[eliakon]

I thought I read somewhere that Cyber Knights were so good at forming psi swords that it does not take up a action to form one. Provided it was not different colors or something other than a sword. Was this rule changed? Thanks!

No, generic Psi-Swords are so instinctual that they can be created in an instant and do not even take up a melee action (page 64 of RUE, bottom of the section under color)
This is a vast improvement over anyone else who has to spend 15 seconds/an entire melee round meditating to summon their psi-sword!

[rem1093]

I thought I read somewhere that Cyber Knights were so good at forming psi swords that it does not take up a action to form one. Provided it was not different colors or something other than a sword. Was this rule changed? Thanks!

No, generic Psi-Swords are so instinctual that they can be created in an instant and do not even take up a melee action (page 64 of RUE, bottom of the section under color)
This is a vast improvement over anyone else who has to spend 15 seconds/an entire melee round meditating to summon their psi-sword!

I always thought that was just the initial summon, but if you had to put it away anytime during the duration you could recreate it with one action.

[The Beast]

I thought I read somewhere that Cyber Knights were so good at forming psi swords that it does not take up a action to form one. Provided it was not different colors or something other than a sword. Was this rule changed? Thanks!

No, generic Psi-Swords are so instinctual that they can be created in an instant and do not even take up a melee action (page 64 of RUE, bottom of the section under color)
This is a vast improvement over anyone else who has to spend 15 seconds/an entire melee round meditating to summon their psi-sword!

I always thought that was just the initial summon, but if you had to put it away anytime during the duration you could recreate it with one action.

No. If you end your power early you need another 30 ISP and 15 seconds to make a new one.

[Axelmania]

You're thinking of the super psi, not the Cyber-Knight OCC ability.

we might nickname these "Cy-Swords" and "MM-Swords" to tell apart.

[eliakon]

You're thinking of the super psi, not the Cyber-Knight OCC ability.

we might nickname these "Cy-Swords" and "MM-Swords" to tell apart.

That was why I said "anyone else"
That, by definition means "everyone who is not a Cyber-Knight and thus does not have the unique ability inherent to that O.C.C. which allows them to instantly summon their version of the Psi-Sword."

[The Beast]

You're thinking of the super psi, not the Cyber-Knight OCC ability.

we might nickname these "Cy-Swords" and "MM-Swords" to tell apart.

That was why I said "anyone else"
That, by definition means "everyone who is not a Cyber-Knight and thus does not have the unique ability inherent to that O.C.C. which allows them to instantly summon their version of the Psi-Sword."

Which is why I responded the way I did.

[Axelmania]

There's also a Psi-Sword in Between the Shadows which only takes a melee action to make. I think the Amaki Duelist can also do that. Both do less damage than the 15 second versions though.

[ShadowLogan]

There's also a Psi-Sword in Between the Shadows which only takes a melee action to make. I think the Amaki Duelist can also do that. Both do less damage than the 15 second versions though.

Amaki Duelist can not create it one melee action, it appears to be standard. It is something they are taught (as w/Cyber-Knight). The Amaki version is also more powerful than a Mind Melter's until Level 4, when the MM quickly pulls ahead.

[eliakon]

There's also a Psi-Sword in Between the Shadows which only takes a melee action to make. I think the Amaki Duelist can also do that. Both do less damage than the 15 second versions though.

Yes a OCC can have a unique OCC ability. That is after all how the Cyber-Knight gets their instant sword.


And the Psionics in Nightbane are Psionics in Nightbane.
Everything works a differently in the different games. That is why they are 'compatible with' and not 'part of the same game as' or "a source book for'
In Nightbane most psionic powers and spells got rewrites that made them much more powerful and many psionics that are Super Psionics in the other games are basic powers in that game.
Sure if the GM likes that power level they are free to allow the use of the powers from Nightbane in their Rifts game. Otherwise the versions of the powers and spells found in the Rifts Books would be considered the versions that apply in a Rifts game.

[rem1093]

I thought I read somewhere that Cyber Knights were so good at forming psi swords that it does not take up a action to form one. Provided it was not different colors or something other than a sword. Was this rule changed? Thanks!

No, generic Psi-Swords are so instinctual that they can be created in an instant and do not even take up a melee action (page 64 of RUE, bottom of the section under color)
This is a vast improvement over anyone else who has to spend 15 seconds/an entire melee round meditating to summon their psi-sword!

I always thought that was just the initial summon, but if you had to put it away anytime during the duration you could recreate it with one action.

No. If you end your power early you need another 30 ISP and 15 seconds to make a new one.

That I don't think that makes any sense, when you get the Weapon for 5 min. per level. At 4th level you would get it for 20 min, at 5th 25, and so on. There is no reason that you should have to carry that weapon in your hand for the entire 20, 25 min. or have to waste a second 30 points. Just because you wanted or needed the use both hands, sometime during the powers duration.

[eliakon]

I thought I read somewhere that Cyber Knights were so good at forming psi swords that it does not take up a action to form one. Provided it was not different colors or something other than a sword. Was this rule changed? Thanks!

No, generic Psi-Swords are so instinctual that they can be created in an instant and do not even take up a melee action (page 64 of RUE, bottom of the section under color)
This is a vast improvement over anyone else who has to spend 15 seconds/an entire melee round meditating to summon their psi-sword!

I always thought that was just the initial summon, but if you had to put it away anytime during the duration you could recreate it with one action.

No. If you end your power early you need another 30 ISP and 15 seconds to make a new one.

That I don't think that makes any sense, when you get the Weapon for 5 min. per level. At 4th level you would get it for 20 min, at 5th 25, and so on. There is no reason that you should have to carry that weapon in your hand for the entire 20, 25 min. or have to waste a second 30 points. Just because you wanted or needed the use both hands, sometime during the powers duration.

The problem is that the power is "create a psi-sword"
This is a binary state. Either you have created a psi-sword or you have not created a psi-sword.
When you 'put it away' that is uncreating it. You have thus ended the power early (which you are allowed to do). To create a psi-sword again you must then reuse the power again.
There is no provision in the power write up to save the sword and in fact putting it away is specifically described as "dispelling" and in the HU2 game line there is a call out explicitly stating that you must spend 30 more ISP to get another sword.

The best reason for this of course is two fold
1) it becomes an incredible assassination weapon. Summon, dispel, and now you have an undetectable high power weapon to take with you as you walk through gates and check points.
2) if 1 is true then why would a Psi-Slayer need a psi-dagger as a 'easily concealable assassination weapon' why not just summon a sword, materialize it stab a person, dematerialize it and move on?

[Axelmania]

Amaki Duelist can not create it one melee action, it appears to be standard. It is something they are taught (as w/Cyber-Knight). The Amaki version is also more powerful than a Mind Melter's until Level 4, when the MM quickly pulls ahead.

Page 156 of WB9 doesn't mention requiring a full round or no attacks, so I would figure it takes the standard cost for psionic powers (1 action) to use unless otherwise indicated. I would assume the same of their Psi-Field ability.

Although it says "closer to a mind melter's blade than a cyber-knight's" that could simply be referring to it costing ISP and doing more damage, not creation time. Thus the "unlike the cyber-knight's" sentence which follows.

Page 166 even groups cyber-knights and duelists together for requiring an additional 2 ISP/minute to use the TW psi-blade, a cost that people using the Super Psionic power do NOT have to pay.

[rem1093]

The problem is that the power is "create a psi-sword"
This is a binary state. Either you have created a psi-sword or you have not created a psi-sword.
When you 'put it away' that is uncreating it. You have thus ended the power early (which you are allowed to do). To create a psi-sword again you must then reuse the power again.
There is no provision in the power write up to save the sword and in fact putting it away is specifically described as "dispelling" and in the HU2 game line there is a call out explicitly stating that you must spend 30 more ISP to get another sword.

The best reason for this of course is two fold
1) it becomes an incredible assassination weapon. Summon, dispel, and now you have an undetectable high power weapon to take with you as you walk through gates and check points.
2) if 1 is true then why would a Psi-Slayer need a psi-dagger as a 'easily concealable assassination weapon' why not just summon a sword, materialize it stab a person, dematerialize it and move on?

Except someone would see you swing the larger weapon. Also with the larger weapon you have to worry about the environment and collateral damage. The Dagger on the other hand is small enough that you can use it without being noticed. Also with its smaller size you would better range of motion, in any environment. And would greatly reduce any collateral damage, such as running the blade though your target and the pore sap behind them.

[ShadowLogan]

Amaki Duelist can not create it one melee action, it appears to be standard. It is something they are taught (as w/Cyber-Knight). The Amaki version is also more powerful than a Mind Melter's until Level 4, when the MM quickly pulls ahead.

Page 156 of WB9 doesn't mention requiring a full round or no attacks, so I would figure it takes the standard cost for psionic powers (1 action) to use unless otherwise indicated. I would assume the same of their Psi-Field ability.

Although it says "closer to a mind melter's blade than a cyber-knight's" that could simply be referring to it costing ISP and doing more damage, not creation time. Thus the "unlike the cyber-knight's" sentence which follows.

Page 166 even groups cyber-knights and duelists together for requiring an additional 2 ISP/minute to use the TW psi-blade, a cost that people using the Super Psionic power do NOT have to pay.

Standard Psi-Sword activation requires 1 full melee (15seconds) to activate, not one action. That is in RMB, RUE, PF2E (possible elsewhere). The power is supposed to be closer to the Mind-Melter's version than the Cyber Knights, so I take it that unless otherwise indicated the Duelist Psi-Sword defaults to Mind-Melter for aspects.

Yes the Duelist pays reduced cost for the TW Psi-Blade, but they are also one of the few classes that get Psi-Sword at reduced cost like the Cyber-Knight from the baseline power so I can see them requiring a different investment than typical psychics trying to use the device.

[Axelmania]

You are looking at a super psionic power which Duelists do not have. I am looking at a character class ability.

When it says it is closer, I see that in reference to the known aspects: more damage and costs ISP. Not imagined aspects like taking extra time to activate. It immediately spells out the 2 ways it is like the Melter's and unlike the Knight's, and creation time is not mentioned as one of them.

See "Psychic Combat" on RUE 366, right column has "4. Psionic attacks per melee":

Most psionic abilities are activated and performed at the speed of thought, so each psionic attack counts as one melee attack/action.
Some psionic abilities require time and concentration, using up several melee actions or even minutes to perform.
This will be indicated in the description of the power.

The description of the power in WB9 does NOT indicate that, therefore it does not take extra time.

Carrella knew to explicitly spell out when psionic abilities took more than the standard 1 action. For example on page 151 the Neo-Human's Mind Wave "counts as the equivalent of two melee attacks".

[Mack]

See "Psychic Combat" on RUE 366, right column has "4. Psionic attacks per melee":

Most psionic abilities are activated and performed at the speed of thought, so each psionic attack counts as one melee attack/action.
Some psionic abilities require time and concentration, using up several melee actions or even minutes to perform.
This will be indicated in the description of the power.

The description of the power in WB9 does NOT indicate that, therefore it does not take extra time.

Bad assumption. WB9 was written well before RUE.

[eliakon]

You are looking at a super psionic power which Duelists do not have. I am looking at a character class ability.

When it says it is closer, I see that in reference to the known aspects: more damage and costs ISP. Not imagined aspects like taking extra time to activate. It immediately spells out the 2 ways it is like the Melter's and unlike the Knight's, and creation time is not mentioned as one of them.

See "Psychic Combat" on RUE 366, right column has "4. Psionic attacks per melee":

Most psionic abilities are activated and performed at the speed of thought, so each psionic attack counts as one melee attack/action.
Some psionic abilities require time and concentration, using up several melee actions or even minutes to perform.
This will be indicated in the description of the power.

The description of the power in WB9 does NOT indicate that, therefore it does not take extra time.

Carrella knew to explicitly spell out when psionic abilities took more than the standard 1 action. For example on page 151 the Neo-Human's Mind Wave "counts as the equivalent of two melee attacks".

It is a Psi-Sword yes?
We have a list of all the ways it is changed from a regular Psi-Sword yes?
Thus if something is NOT listed as being changed it is identical to the standard power. After all simply because a class starts with Exorcism we do not assume it takes 1 action and not 30+6d6 Minutes.
Therefore in both RMB and RUE creating a Psi-Sword takes 15 seconds/1 Melee round.
As such it still takes 1 round unless the power EXPLICITY states it does not like a Cyber-Knights power does.

This is what it means when it says "In the description of the power"
The Duelist is not a full power, but just a stub of the modifications to the full power. You have to read the power in the book to find out the rest of its rules... and in THOSE rules we do find out that yes indeed it does tell us in the description of the power that this power takes more than 1 action.
The reason that things like Mind-Wave have the note listed is that they are new powers. The listing in the race or class is the entire write up of the power and thus all details of the power are found there or put another way its full description... this is why it is so much longer than the tiny stub of the Psi-Sword power. And as such it does have any time costs listed... because it is the description of the power where such is to be found.

[Axelmania]

No, we have a list of ways it is different from a cyber-knight Psi-Sword.

RMB and RUE also both say psi-swords can be created instantly. Both have both incarnations.

I am not arguing it works like either. It is a unique ability sharing a name with those two, but it operates under standard psi rules.

The Amaki Duelist's Psi-Sword is very much a full power. It is not a list of modifications to an existing one.

See "Psychic Combat" on RUE 366, right column has "4. Psionic attacks per melee":

Most psionic abilities are activated and performed at the speed of thought, so each psionic attack counts as one melee attack/action.
Some psionic abilities require time and concentration, using up several melee actions or even minutes to perform.
This will be indicated in the description of the power.

The description of the power in WB9 does NOT indicate that, therefore it does not take extra time.

Bad assumption. WB9 was written well before RUE.

This is not an assumption, this is the RAW as to how psi works. BTW, are you arguing that RMB did not say anything like this?

[Mack]

I’m saying that your citation does not support your conclusion.

[ShadowLogan]

When it says it is closer, I see that in reference to the known aspects: more damage and costs ISP. Not imagined aspects like taking extra time to activate. It immediately spells out the 2 ways it is like the Melter's and unlike the Knight's, and creation time is not mentioned as one of them.

Which IMHO means the activation time is going to be as the Mind Melter's and not the Cyber-Knights' since the creation time is not one of them. As a class ability the only thing it has in common with CK is that it is thought and available at level 1, the power has an ISP cost, a duration limit, and a different damage table, you can only create 1 (not a big deal in RMB days, but as of SoT4/RUE). They make no mention of "warmup" time like the MM, but at the same time they say it is "closer to a mind melter's blade than to the cyber knight's" so I would default to the MM version for any questions not addressed.

Carrella knew to explicitly spell out when psionic abilities took more than the standard 1 action. For example on page 151 the Neo-Human's Mind Wave "counts as the equivalent of two melee attacks".

And how many of those abilities have versions in the regular psionic powers list? And of those modeled after the regular list (at the time) required more than 1 action to activate on said list? Outside of the Healing Cat. in RMB (with nearly all), there where very few that had a warmup time (Psi-Sword being one of them)

[Axelmania]

I’m saying that your citation does not support your conclusion.

I see your point with an as-of-publication approach. RUE 366's "will be indicated" appears to be absent in the original RMB 37 "Psychic Combat".

The general idea still exists though:

during a combat sequence each physical and psychic activity counts as one combat action/attack that melee
..
some psi-abilities require time to prepare which might make any other attacks/action impossible.

The "some" would be individually defined, as it is for the Psi-Sword super-psi, but not for the Psi-Sword CC ability.

When it says it is closer, I see that in reference to the known aspects: more damage and costs ISP. Not imagined aspects like taking extra time to activate. It immediately spells out the 2 ways it is like the Melter's and unlike the Knight's, and creation time is not mentioned as one of them.

Which IMHO means the activation time is going to be as the Mind Melter's and not the Cyber-Knights' since the creation time is not one of them.

Not one of what?

1) ways the power is different than a Cyber-Knight Psi-Sword (CKdiff)
2) ways the power is different than a Mind Melter Psi-Sword (MMdiff)

We are told "Unlike the cyber-knight's psi-sword, the Duelist's psi-sword costs 15 I.S.P. to activate." In parenthesis is also a limited duration.

If the basis is "explain ways in which the Duelist's psi-sword is unlike the cyber-knight's psi-sword" then it would have said "and takes 15 seconds" in that same sentence, when describing differences in activation.

We can thus only assume that it otherwise activates identically to a cyber-knight Psi-Sword. It is "closer" to a mind melter's due to the mentioned differences (the ISP cost, the limited duration the greater damage) and not unmentioned hypothesized-differences (creation time).

RMB 63 is illustrative here too:

It is important to note that the cyber-knight's psi-sword is quite different than the mind melter's super psi-sword.
First, the knight can create the weapon in an instant; in many respects it is a living part of the hero.
Second, there is no expenditure of I.S.P. in the conventional game sense, the knight's will and conviction is the driving power behind the blade.
Third, there is no limit as to how long the sword remains in effect nor any limit as to how many times a day the weapon can be created.

Psi-Sword actually doesn't have a "times per day" (that's just an effect of ISP limits) so I don't know why they added the last part.

The "an instant" part is pretty vague, SOT4 interpreted this as being free (not even an action) but prior to that I think many may have ruled that as costing 1 action. There are examples of this term being used rather loosely after all...

69 instantly make the juicer alert and ready for action in 15 seconds/one melee).
83 instills the mage with instant information about the line in a matter of moments
83 instantly teleport from one place on a specific ley line to another place on the same ley line .. process will require 1D4 melees
84 instant rejuvenation as often as once every 24 hours .. After about ten minutes
103 Extinguish Fires: The power to instantly put out flames
103 Fire Bolt .. Duration: Instant.
105 The absorption process is instantaneous (about 5 seconds)
115 Exorcism .. Duration: Instant, if successful .. Length of Trance: 30 minutes of preparation
116 Healing Touch Duration: Instant

I think it's clear that the presence of the term 'instant' doesn't necessarily mean 'does not take a melee action to use' based on this. I believe SOT4 thus changed/improved the sword to be a free action, that it would be the standard 1 action for psychic powers to make them prior to that.

As a class ability the only thing it has in common with CK is that it is thought and available at level 1,

And that it usually takes 1 melee action to create, although CK swords were improved to be less than 1 action as of SOT 4.

the power has an ISP cost, a duration limit, and a different damage table,

I will point out here that having a different ISP cost, a different duration and different damage are also differences from the Mind Melter.

you can only create 1 (not a big deal in RMB days, but as of SoT4/RUE).

I can't see anything on RMBp126 preventing multiple psi-swords. Pg 11 of Vampire Kingdoms even mentions "more than one psi-sword can be created at a time". I believe that can be viewed as how the power usually operates, but it's more useful for a Vampire Intelligence since they are 100 to 200 feet in diameter and thus would probably need more than one to reach enemies on multiple sides.

The length of the tentacles isn't given AFAIK until page 24 of VK revised, where we learn they can stretch 200 feet. That's in a straight line presumably so they'd have difficulty wrapping around their body, and having them on multiple sides would be necessary to reach their full diameter of 300-400 feet using mount+tentacles from centre.

They make no mention of "warmup" time like the MM, but at the same time they say it is "closer to a mind melter's blade than to the cyber knight's" so I would default to the MM version for any questions not addressed.

The question IS addressed under standard psi rules, 1 action. No need to use special 0-cost (SOT4) or 15-cost (super) rules when it is neither.

And how many of those abilities have versions in the regular psionic powers list?

It isn't a version of that, otherwise it would be listed alongside Psi Shield under "Other Psionic Powers".

When something is merely a power with a modification, it is listed normally with that modification, such as we see in CBp160/CBRp180 for the Syvan's bio-regeneration (MDC).

[dreicunan]

WB9 is rather ambiguous about this, actually. Sure, it says that it is closer to the Mind Melter's blade than the cyber-knights, but it then goes on to distinguish it from the cyber-knight's blade, not from the Mind Melter's. "Unlike the cyber-knight's psi-sword, the Duelist's costs 15 ISP to activate (lasts 5 minutes per level of experience)." Add in how much damage the thing inflicts at level 1, and those three points alone make it more similar to the Super-Psi power. In other words, I don't see the need to read it as giving variations from the psionic power when the text itself casts the variation as differences from the cyber-knight version. Either perspective on how long it takes to summon can claim justification from the text. Personally, I'd let them summon it as a single melee action.

[ShadowLogan]

We can thus only assume that it otherwise activates identically to a cyber-knight Psi-Sword. It is "closer" to a mind melter's due to the mentioned differences (the ISP cost, the limited duration the greater damage) and not unmentioned hypothesized-differences (creation time).

I don't see it that way. The only real things it has in common with the CK-Psi-Sword is:
-available at level 1 (IINM in terms of psi-powers at level 1 very few classes actually have it AFAIK since it isn't available until Level 3 normally even to a Mind Melter)
-the psi-power is thought to the character, which is pretty unusual for Psi-powers IINM

If we use the standard rules of the time (RMB) the power descriptions wind-up activation time still applies. Even under RUE it is called out the power's windup activation can override the one action. Dueilists don't make a distinction on their windup time, unlike the CK version, which means they default to the MM version since the ability is closer to that one than the CK.

The "an instant" part is pretty vague, SOT4 interpreted this as being free (not even an action) but prior to that I think many may have ruled that as costing 1 action.

We played it as a free action in RMB is how our group took it. I don't think I've ever heard it ruled that it would cost an action.

Palladium is pretty vague in wording at times and dreadfully so at times.

I can't see anything on RMBp126 preventing multiple psi-swords.

I don't see anything in RMB that you can create multiple psi-swords (CK or Psi-Power). You VK reference might also apply to just the Vampire Alien Intelligence and not others since it isn't specifically called out elsewhere.

[Axelmania]

I don't see the need to read it as giving variations from the psionic power when the text itself casts the variation as differences from the cyber-knight version

But dreicunan, since it is casting variations from the cyber-knight, we would expect to see longer creation time if that were true.

I don't see anything in RMB that you can create multiple psi-swords (CK or Psi-Power)

Would you prevent multiple simultaneous activation of other psi power if they did not explicitly say you could? If so, why?

[glitterboy2098]

The problem is that the power is "create a psi-sword"
This is a binary state. Either you have created a psi-sword or you have not created a psi-sword.
When you 'put it away' that is uncreating it. You have thus ended the power early (which you are allowed to do). To create a psi-sword again you must then reuse the power again.
There is no provision in the power write up to save the sword and in fact putting it away is specifically described as "dispelling" and in the HU2 game line there is a call out explicitly stating that you must spend 30 more ISP to get another sword.

The best reason for this of course is two fold
1) it becomes an incredible assassination weapon. Summon, dispel, and now you have an undetectable high power weapon to take with you as you walk through gates and check points.
2) if 1 is true then why would a Psi-Slayer need a psi-dagger as a 'easily concealable assassination weapon' why not just summon a sword, materialize it stab a person, dematerialize it and move on?

Except someone would see you swing the larger weapon. Also with the larger weapon you have to worry about the environment and collateral damage. The Dagger on the other hand is small enough that you can use it without being noticed. Also with its smaller size you would better range of motion, in any environment. And would greatly reduce any collateral damage, such as running the blade though your target and the pore sap behind them.

nope. under your interpretation, you could just call it into re-existence with your hand pressed to the back/front of the target. insta-stab. Han Solo and Kylo Ren, at starkiller base.

very unbalancing, that would be. which is why the power does not work that way. except for cyberknights, who have their honorcode to prevent such tactics.

[ShadowLogan]

I don't see the need to read it as giving variations from the psionic power when the text itself casts the variation as differences from the cyber-knight version

But dreicunan, since it is casting variations from the cyber-knight, we would expect to see longer creation time if that were true.

But it isn't a casting variation from the cyber-knight, the text makes the power out to be closer to the Mind Melter's version than the Cyber-Knight's pretty clearly.

I don't see anything in RMB that you can create multiple psi-swords (CK or Psi-Power)

Would you prevent multiple simultaneous activation of other psi power if they did not explicitly say you could? If so, why?

Yes I would prevent it.

Because most powers don't make much sense having multiple activation (ex. what benefit comes from a multiple simultaneous activation of "Impervious to Fire" or "Astral Projection") or incapable of simultaneous multiple activation due to their duration (how can "instant" have a multiple simultaneous activation?, not to mention that it would be ripe for abuse if you have the ISP available). And most of the ones that make sense will actually mention it (TK/TK:S, Bio-Manip, Electrokensis, TK:FF), and the ones that don't imply that you could not given the ones that make sense and do mention it.

[Axelmania]

But it isn't a casting variation from the cyber-knight, the text makes the power out to be closer to the Mind Melter's version than the Cyber-Knight's pretty clearly.

It then states the ways it differs from the Cyber-Knight: duration, ISP and damage.

If it took longer, that would've also been stated.

I would prevent it
..
it would be ripe for abuse if you have the ISP available
..
most of the ones that make sense will actually mention it (TK/TK:S, Bio-Manip, Electrokensis, TK:FF)
..
the ones that don't imply that you could not given the ones that make sense and do mention it.

Looking at RMB115, here are some powers with non-instant durations which I can see being valuable activating more than once prior to canceling/expiring of 1st usage.

Deaden Pain (deaden 2 people)
Increased Healing (heal 2 people)
Induce Sleep (snooze 2 people)
Ectoplasm (create a pair of limbs, or 4 if GM interprets pair is allowed by default, or create 2 silhouetted humanoid forms)
Levitation (2 objects)
Telekinesis (2 objects)
Bio-Manipulation (2 enemies)
Electrokinesis: Manipulate Electricla Devices (to manipulate 24/melee instead of 12/melee)
Empathic Transmission (influence 2 people)
Hydrokinesis: Boil Water (2 gallons)
Mind Bond (Melter gains info from party A, shares memory with party B)
Psi-Shield (backup in case 1st is disarmed)
Psi-Sword (double-stab)
Pyrokinesis: Create Flame (block 2 doorways!)
Telekinesis (Super) to manipulate 2 objects/level
TKFF (protect allies 80ft apart)
Telemechanics (seems to imply 1 activation / machine, wouldn't be needed if 1 activation applies to any machine you touched during the time, kinda unclear)

I don't see where Bio-Manipulation or Electrokinesis, TK or TK:Super mention that you can keep 2 instances of the power active simultaneously.

I do see "Once one field is created, the psionic can create as many others as his I.S.P. will allow" on 127 for TKFF.

I think that is a statement of convenience, rather than exception to unwritten rule. That any power, not just TKFF, can be activated as ISP allows including multiple simultaneous durations.

[ShadowLogan]

nger, that would've also been stated.

We will just have to agree to disagree on the matter then.

Looking at RMB115, here are some powers with non-instant durations which I can see being valuable activating more than once prior to canceling/expiring of 1st usage.
...

Electrokinesis: since each manipulation is going to cost an action (IINM), and RMB-era characters tend to top out around 12 APMs (if not lower) I don't see what value you can get from being able to manipulate x2 the number of devices if you don't have the APM (even in RUE-era I'm not sure it would have much value).

Psi-Shield/Sword. That being able to create a second one does have advantages, but the text doesn't seem to really allow it. I'm not even sure if you could "disarm" a Psi-Shield either (you'd have to break there concentration) since you can't give it away.

Telemechanics (and even Object Read sister power) is vague I agree, but I wouldn't allow one to communicate with more than one machine at a time (it is also like telepathy, which is limited to one at a time).

Mind Bond IMHO amounts to a sort of telepathy, which is limited to one at a time.

Ectoplasm. I'm not sure you can do simultaneous castings. Solid Ectoplasm can form full figures, so I'd have no issue with allowing it to create multiple limbs from one casting. Having both Vapor and Solid... it doesn't seem like it would work.

The following don't work with your list because they already can be used on multiples either with one casting or effectively state they can be cast multiple times with overlap:
-TK can be used on more than one object "Several objects can be telekinetically thrown around within the same melee round, but not simultaneously." (pg118 RMB, as Duration is 2 minutes per level and a melee round is 1/4 of a minute. so you could use it on multiple objects in a melee). TK:S even states "The character can use telekinesis to manipulate as many as one object per level of experience" (pg127 RMB) and it is basically the same as TK ability. The one object per level is clear for TK:S.

Biomanipulation "Each affects only one person per attack and can be used in any combination" I would take that to mean you can cast it simultaneously for different effects per person or at multiple people (each individually though)

Emphatic Transmission "Each psychic attack/transmission can only affect one creature at a time.", which I would take to mean it can be cast multiple overlapping times.

TKFF: already can be cast multiple overlapping times

I think that is a statement of convenience, rather than exception to unwritten rule. That any power, not just TKFF, can be activated as ISP allows including multiple simultaneous durations.

Convenience instead of exception to unwritten rule? Seems like TKFF points toward being the exception since ISP availability would be obvious (just like spells, not enough PPE and spells don't work period).

[dreicunan]

I don't see the need to read it as giving variations from the psionic power when the text itself casts the variation as differences from the cyber-knight version

But dreicunan, since it is casting variations from the cyber-knight, we would expect to see longer creation time if that were true.

But it isn't a casting variation from the cyber-knight, the text makes the power out to be closer to the Mind Melter's version than the Cyber-Knight's pretty clearly.

Well, one can argue that it makes it out to be closer to the Mind Melter's versions due to the specific differences from the Cyber-Knight's version. The text is silent on the issue of activiation. There is justification for either argument, and there is no canon resolution to be found here.

To me, the fact that every actual difference is expressed as a difference from the Cyber-Knight's sword says that you use that as the base, hence why I'd rule that it takes one action to create. The fact that the Duelist Psi-Sword also ends up doing less damage than the normal power also influences me to have it only take one action. (Actually, I'd house-rule that they can spend 30 ISP to get the normal psi-power version after a round of concentration if they want.)

[Axelmania]

Where are you seeing the text not allowing Psi-Shield to be used a 2nd time prior to the 1st time expiring?

Why would this work differently than spells? It's not like you can only ever have 1 golem or 1 mummy or 1 zombie or 1 shadow beast.

Telepathy is limited to one at a time PER ACTIVATION. I don't see any prohibitions against activating it twice to hold conversations with two other telepaths at once.

Logan: I mean simultaneously. As in if you want to lift 2 chairs in the air at once, you would need to use TK twice. Otherwise you could only lift 1 at a time. There could be times when that is important.

"One person per attack" is not in any way asserting you can use it against multiple targets concurrently. You are wrong to think that Bio-Manipulation / Empathic Transmission text supports you. That's just common sense you would apply for ALL psi.

The canon resolution to be found: psi cost 1 attack to use unless it says otherwise. The Duelist CC power does not say otherwise.

I wouldn't like to give duelists a traditional psi-sword. If they want that they should get a gizmoteer to build them one. Gotta give Psi-Warriors and Mind Melters and edge.

[dreicunan]

I wouldn't like to give duelists a traditional psi-sword. If they want that they should get a gizmoteer to build them one. Gotta give Psi-Warriors and Mind Melters and edge.

You don't think that their expanded range of powers in comparison to the Duelist is enough of an edge already?

[ShadowLogan]

You bring up spell use. Well Spells function differently IMHO than Psychic powers. The Mage doesn't have to concentrate to keep your example spell/rituals active, where a Psychic does to Telepathy or TK. Most powers also put restrictions on how many you can influence, which IMHO also means how many times a given power can be activated with overlapping duration and unless specifically mentioned would be limited to one "casting" per power unless specified.

That doesn't mean there aren't "creative" ways to get around the issue either.

A few "creative ways" to go about getting two psi-swords (or psi-shields), but it just shifts the "can I do this" from one approach (which IMHO is not available) to one that might even be murkier but look at exploiting technicalities (though a GM can put requirements forward to allow them to be exploited)
1. Psi-Shield for Psi-Sword. Since the shape of the shield is not defined technically by the power, you could make the shape into a weapon (ex. Lantern Shield or Sai shape). Though it would be limited to parry/block actions (since that is what it for), but you couldn't do damage (no damage for using the shield as a blunt object like normal shields)
2. Psi-Sword for Psi-Shield. Selecting a Lantern Shield (which has a sword blade) as the Psi-Swords shape would give one access to another Psi-Shield, though protective sheilding value wouldn't be available (since Psi-Swords don't list their MDC) you get 2 "shields" (if Psi-Shield is active).
3. 2-for-1 Psi-Sword (highly dubious but). As the creation is a "personal thing" and a "reflection of its creator"... The two swords of a Diasho set (or similar) might meet the personal thing and be a reflection of its creator, which would yield up two swords (different sizes) if they think of them as an integrated pair that are extensions of each other (one sword) or expect them to be used in pairs. How damage would be handled in this case would need to be handled with care, but still doable (split damage, one damage one image and can choose, both do base damage, etc).

The canon resolution to be found: psi cost 1 attack to use unless it says otherwise. The Duelist CC power does not say otherwise.

True, but the Duelist CC power description also harkens it to being closer to the Mind Melter version which does say otherwise (15sec as opposed to instant). Which leaves 3 possible choices: 1. Cyber-Knight "instant", 2. Standard 1 action, 3. 15sec.

I wouldn't like to give duelists a traditional psi-sword. If they want that they should get a gizmoteer to build them one. Gotta give Psi-Warriors and Mind Melters and edge.

Yes they could get a gizmoteer to build them one and that Gizmoteer could allow it to be activated as a single action (TW devices can cast high level spells essentially as one action). Or two similar TW Psi-Blade devices (one traditional, the other granting user access to a power they don't normally have but still have to pay the "regular" ISP cost instead of their reduced cost).

[Axelmania]

You don't think that their expanded range of powers in comparison to the Duelist is enough of an edge already?

Duelist or Melter? A 3-way comparison is hard, we can compare DvM, DvW, or MvW I guess.

The Mage doesn't have to concentrate to keep your example spell/rituals active, where a Psychic does to Telepathy or TK.

Are you sure this applies to all spells and all powers or do both categories involve case by case? What base rules are you building this from?

A few "creative ways" to go about getting two psi-swords (or psi-shields), but it just shifts the "can I do this" from one approach (which IMHO is not available) to one that might even be murkier but look at exploiting technicalities (though a GM can put requirements forward to allow them to be exploited)

Being able to have 2 Psi-Shields or run TK twice to manipulate 2 objects at once doesn't feel like much of an exploit compared to having 2 guards BM:Blinded simultaneously.

True, but the Duelist CC power description also harkens it to being closer to the Mind Melter version which does say otherwise (15sec as opposed to instant). Which leaves 3 possible choices: 1. Cyber-Knight "instant", 2. Standard 1 action, 3. 15sec.

Any time we are told 2 things are similar that doesn't mean we should assume they operate the same in every unspecified attribute. We're bound to discover some fun times if we go digging looking for where that could crop up.

Yes they could get a gizmoteer to build them one and that Gizmoteer could allow it to be activated as a single action (TW devices can cast high level spells essentially as one action).

This is a fuzzy area since they're psi-devices, and also because I'm not entirely sure it's true that all TW devices will always take 1 action to use. That does seem to be how it usually works and I can't think of any explicit examples otherwise but I can't recall where that thinking began.

[ShadowLogan]

Are you sure this applies to all spells and all powers or do both categories involve case by case? What base rules are you building this from?

With regard to your specific examples that I was responding to Yes I am sure. In general though there are far more magic spells in Rifts than Psychic Powers so there may be specific examples that operate like Psi-powers that require concentration, but in general spells are presented as a "fire and forget" instead of "fire and guide" in terms of concentration.

The ability of spells to have duplicate castings active doesn't necessarily apply to Psychic powers since they are a different categories.

Being able to have 2 Psi-Shields or run TK twice to manipulate 2 objects at once doesn't feel like much of an exploit compared to having 2 guards BM:Blinded simultaneously.

But as I said its a "creative way" to use a Psi power twice without actually using it twice.

Biomanipulation can be used on multiple people with overlapping duration, just not cast simultaneously in one action. That is what the text allows. By the rules you can have multiple powers in play with overlapping duration, but the ability to cast two powers (or spells) simultaneously in one action is not actually addressed. And casting a power (but not spell) again while its duration is still in effect to get it "twice" seems to go against the rules given some powers specifically address this angle which they wouldn't have to do if all powers could do it.

[dreicunan]

You don't think that their expanded range of powers in comparison to the Duelist is enough of an edge already?

Duelist or Melter? A 3-way comparison is hard, we can compare DvM, DvW, or MvW I guess.

You were the one who originally said "Gotta give Psi-Warriors and Mind Melters and edge." I quoted that in the post to which you are responding.

[Axelmania]

By the rules you can have multiple powers in play with overlapping duration, but the ability to cast two powers (or spells) simultaneously in one action is not actually addressed.

I don't think anyone is proposing we could do that. Unless maybe it was some approach using Paired WP?

And casting a power (but not spell) again while its duration is still in effect to get it "twice" seems to go against the rules given some powers specifically address this angle which they wouldn't have to do if all powers could do it.

The only power I've seen address this angle is Telekinetic Force Field, and you're seeing this as a "need" to address it whereas I see it as more of a convenient pointer-outer.

If it were actually an exception and not casual talk, there would "need' to be wording that specifies that this is an exception and that other powers don't work that way.