retaining animal natural abilities with necromancy

[Axelmania]

If I use "animate and control dead" or "create mummy" or "create zombie" to reanimate the corpse of a Sparrow, can it fly?

[ShadowLogan]

"Animate and Control Dead" I would say NO. They are basically puppets.

Create Mummy/Zombie. I'm not sure, but it can be a potential source of abuse using the Mummy/Zombie and "natural abilities", as I don't know of any in-game precedent for using the Rituals like this.

[The Beast]

If I use "animate and control dead" or "create mummy" or "create zombie" to reanimate the corpse of a Sparrow, can it fly?

I'd say it would depend on the matter of how they died and the condition of the corpse. For example if a bird was poisoned and was otherwise intact I'd say yes. If its wings were ripped off and it bled to death I'd say no.

[Axelmania]

What if I sewed the wings back on?

[dreicunan]

The easy, fun answer would be "Yes," because sparrow skeletons flying around would be cool and a great way to provide atmosphere for a scene. The more complex answer would involve deciding if the animated corpse still has enough thrust being provided to keep it aloft, and I honestly wouldn't care to spend the time to figure that out, so I'd go with the easy and fun answer unless someone else had already done the math.

[The Beast]

What if I sewed the wings back on?

Sure, why not?

[Axelmania]

The easy, fun answer would be "Yes," because sparrow skeletons flying around would be cool and a great way to provide atmosphere for a scene. The more complex answer would involve deciding if the animated corpse still has enough thrust being provided to keep it aloft, and I honestly wouldn't care to spend the time to figure that out, so I'd go with the easy and fun answer unless someone else had already done the math.

I'm not sure it has to make sense, if skeletons can magically move without muscles like they did in life, why not fly like they did in life?

My guess is it would take less kinetic energy to hold a bird skeleton aloft in the air than it would to propel a human skeleton through locomotion. It's not like they can store kinetic energy in their tendons.

[Mlp7029]

Certainly not once the feathers start to fall off. I read the Create Zombie ritual and I think you would have a hard time placing the candles on a corpse as small as a sparrow. The attacks per melee seem to indicate zombies are slower somehow than living beings, maybe? If you envision zombies as shambling somewhat clumsier or slower than living being a sparrow might be too clumsy to fly or perhaps too clumsy to fly in a very controlled manner. Also I do no believe sparrows can hover in flight.

[dreicunan]

The easy, fun answer would be "Yes," because sparrow skeletons flying around would be cool and a great way to provide atmosphere for a scene. The more complex answer would involve deciding if the animated corpse still has enough thrust being provided to keep it aloft, and I honestly wouldn't care to spend the time to figure that out, so I'd go with the easy and fun answer unless someone else had already done the math.

I'm not sure it has to make sense, if skeletons can magically move without muscles like they did in life, why not fly like they did in life?

My guess is it would take less kinetic energy to hold a bird skeleton aloft in the air than it would to propel a human skeleton through locomotion. It's not like they can store kinetic energy in their tendons.

Well, "magic does it" to me is the fun answer. I have no problem with that. If you want a pseudo-scieney magicy answer for it, though, that requires more math and speculation than I am willing to spend figuring it out.

So I say flying sparrow skeletons for everyone!

[Killer Cyborg]

If I use "animate and control dead" or "create mummy" or "create zombie" to reanimate the corpse of a Sparrow, can it fly?

Those spells have stats and descriptions for the kind of creatures they can make.
Those stats and descriptions do not include flight.
Ergo, no, those spells can not do the kind of thing that you'd like.

[eliakon]

If I use "animate and control dead" or "create mummy" or "create zombie" to reanimate the corpse of a Sparrow, can it fly?

Those spells have stats and descriptions for the kind of creatures they can make.
Those stats and descriptions do not include flight.
Ergo, no, those spells can not do the kind of thing that you'd like.

that doesn't follow though
If the book said "these, and only these, are the abilities retained by undead raised by this spell you would be correct."
However it does not and we DO have examples of various undead that are in books that are not simply cats or dogs or people and those undead DO have all sorts of special abilities that are not mentioned in the spells descriptions ergo the descriptions do not cover all possible cases and abilities.
The question then is "which abilities will be retained and which will not"
The answer of course is "Ask your GM for what they think works best for the game they are running.

On a simpler note I would suggest looking at the ability in question and the undead in question and going from there.
A zombie bird? Yeah, I can't see any reason why it couldn't fly. It has the wings, it has the intuitive skill, it has the strength... so my answer would be 'duh of course it can fly' a skeleton bird though? Nope, it doesn't have wings or pinions or any of the other things needed. It can't fly any more than the ribs of a umbrella hold out water.
I would go along this for any ability as well. An undead cat will have cat sight, but a dog will need to have a nose to smell. No animal will retain powers related to being a natural animal anymore... because they are not a natural animal. But a zombie horse can still be ridden. The list would go on and on like that.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I use "animate and control dead" or "create mummy" or "create zombie" to reanimate the corpse of a Sparrow, can it fly?

Those spells have stats and descriptions for the kind of creatures they can make.
Those stats and descriptions do not include flight.
Ergo, no, those spells can not do the kind of thing that you'd like.

that doesn't follow though
If the book said "these, and only these, are the abilities retained by undead raised by this spell you would be correct."

So... you're of the mind that any spell that doesn't day "these, and only these effects happen when the spell is cast," then other stuff is open game?
Interesting notion, but not one that I could agree with.

If you cast Create Golem, you get the stats listed.
If you cast Phantasmal Mount, you get the stats listed.
If you cast Armor of Ithan, you get the stats listed.
That's how spells work in the rules, not by allowing unstated and unimplied effects to occur simply because they are not expressly forbidden.

However it does not and we DO have examples of various undead that are in books that are not simply cats or dogs or people and those undead DO have all sorts of special abilities that are not mentioned in the spells descriptions ergo the descriptions do not cover all possible cases and abilities.

Are you under the impression that all undead are created by the 3 spells listed in the original post?

[Axelmania]

Certainly not once the feathers start to fall off.

Is it certain? Locomotion logically shouldn't be possible once muscles fall off, yet it somehow persists. Sight logically shouldn't be possible once eyeballs fall out yet I've seen no suggestion of blindness penalties due to decomposition (though that might be cool)

I read the Create Zombie ritual and I think you would have a hard time placing the candles on a corpse as small as a sparrow.

I could get assistance from some evil Faerie folk, maybe buy tiny candles with them.

The attacks per melee seem to indicate zombies are slower somehow than living beings, maybe?

If you envision zombies as shambling somewhat clumsier or slower than living being a sparrow might be too clumsy to fly or perhaps too clumsy to fly in a very controlled manner. Also I do no believe sparrows can hover in flight.

Zombies with 2 APM originally were twice as fast as a 1st level person with HTH assassin, and equal to other HTH skills in attacks, only eclipsed by boxers, Cyber-Knights, Crazies, Juicers and Power Armor.

Mummies with 3 APM and Golems with 4 APM could tie/equal even those exceptions at low levels.

As of RUE you are right though, that whole "2 for living" thing snuck in gives mortals a leg up. I can't remember when that got introduced. I think it's actually gone now and they just incorporated it into HTH combat skills giving 3 or 4 to begin with instead of 1 or 2, so zombies are only faster than people who lack combat training, and even then only for 1st/2nd level as there is a +1 at 3rd (RUE 347) and then untrained people pull ahead of zombies at 9th level when they get 3 attacks.

Although outside of combat, untrained people tie zombies with non-combat actions, and surpass them at 3rd. I can't see dodges mentioned as examples but I would allow it since dodging doesn't seem like an "attack to me" RUE 345 for example says "attack/action" so any time it uses /action I would allow the untrained people to spend a non-combat action to do it. Entangle for example takes up one "attack" (no /action) so I wouldn't allow non-combat actions to be used, only "attacks". Parries are a bit less direct but RUE 346 says "without using attacks" implying if you lack HtH training you must use an "attack" to parry, so I don't think I'd allow non-combat actions to be used for them.

If I use "animate and control dead" or "create mummy" or "create zombie" to reanimate the corpse of a Sparrow, can it fly?

Those spells have stats and descriptions for the kind of creatures they can make.
Those stats and descriptions do not include flight.
Ergo, no, those spells can not do the kind of thing that you'd like.

We are told the speed, but not the matter of locomotion in which the speed represents.

Just as a skeleton/zombie shark/dolphin would be assumed to be swimming and not walking at the given speed, and I think skeleton/mummy/zombie monkeys could be viewed as able to brachiate at those speeds, I think it would make sense to view that as an avian's flight.

If you cast Create Golem, you get the stats listed.
If you cast Phantasmal Mount, you get the stats listed.
If you cast Armor of Ithan, you get the stats listed.

Building upon existing text though, zombies can "perform simple tasks". Flight is arguably a simple task for a bird, just as swimming would be a simple task for a crocodile.

When it says "can be sent to retrieve an artifact, follow somebody, kidnap a person" it doesn't explicitly say "only by walking".

When it says "Like the mummy, a zombie is a walking corpse" I suppose one might take that as a restriction against mummies/zombies being made out of non-walking beings, but only if you also forbid making mummies/zombies out of legless corpses, because they can't walk either.

The mention of walking has never restricted them to walking though. Zombies can "even drive a car", and I think swimming/flight/brachiation are simpler tasks for fish/birds/monkeys than driving a car is for humans. They do those things instinctively whereas humans must learn to drive cars.

Taking a realistic approach: I would probably assume zombies can't drive cars by default, but that a Rogue Scholar could teach them Pilot: Automobile as a secondary skill. More believable than some ancient necromantic ritual somehow instilling the ability to drive, since it doesn't mention anything about retaining skills someone had in life.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I use "animate and control dead" or "create mummy" or "create zombie" to reanimate the corpse of a Sparrow, can it fly?

Those spells have stats and descriptions for the kind of creatures they can make.
Those stats and descriptions do not include flight.
Ergo, no, those spells can not do the kind of thing that you'd like.

We are told the speed, but not the matter of locomotion in which the speed represents.

We aren't told the "speed."
We're told the "Speed."
Speed is an attribute in this case, an attribute that is defined as (RUE 281) "This is how fast the character can run."
Running is by definition NOT flight.
The only time the a Speed attribute measures anything other than running is when a different form of locomotion is specified, which is why creatures that can fly have their flight Speed noted as an exception to the rule that Speed means running. Ditto with creatures that can swim, and so forth: non-running speeds are listed differently because they're exceptions to the rule.
There is no such stated exception when it comes to mummies, zombies, or animated dead.

If you cast Create Golem, you get the stats listed.
If you cast Phantasmal Mount, you get the stats listed.
If you cast Armor of Ithan, you get the stats listed.

Building upon existing text though, zombies can "perform simple tasks". Flight is arguably a simple task for a bird, just as swimming would be a simple task for a crocodile.

It's not a task; it's a means of locomotion.
See above.

When it says "Like the mummy, a zombie is a walking corpse" I suppose one might take that as a restriction against mummies/zombies being made out of non-walking beings, but only if you also forbid making mummies/zombies out of legless corpses, because they can't walk either.

Correct.

The mention of walking has never restricted them to walking though. Zombies can "even drive a car", and I think swimming/flight/brachiation are simpler tasks for fish/birds/monkeys than driving a car is for humans. They do those things instinctively whereas humans must learn to drive cars.

What makes you think that zombies, mummies, and (especially) animated dead have any instincts?

Taking a realistic approach: I would probably assume zombies can't drive cars by default, but that a Rogue Scholar could teach them Pilot: Automobile as a secondary skill. More believable than some ancient necromantic ritual somehow instilling the ability to drive, since it doesn't mention anything about retaining skills someone had in life.

Agreed.

[Axelmania]

The only time the a Speed attribute measures anything other than running is when a different form of locomotion is specified, which is why creatures that can fly have their flight Speed noted as an exception to the rule that Speed means running. Ditto with creatures that can swim, and so forth: non-running speeds are listed differently because they're exceptions to the rule.
There is no such stated exception when it comes to mummies, zombies, or animated dead.

It is possible to gain a swimming speed from a skill, so a rogue scholar who teaches swimming as a secondary skill to a mummy/zombie should be able to impart that. No point with animated dead since they wouldn't be around enough to learn it. Golems too, although to benefit from it you'd probably have to rig up a really decent life jacket so they could actually float, as otherwise I think the stone/iron would sink and they couldn't swim.

Same with climbing speed.

As there is no skill which can teach flight speed, I do see your point in that they have no stated means of getting it.

TTGD 59 version of "Create Zombie" could be an exception, since rather than introducing a new set of stats, it simply modifies the stats of existing beings. It even says it works on Hunters, who we know can fly, and doesn't say anything about them losing their ability to fly.

KC do you think that "3 Reduce the original P P , P B , and Spd attributes to half" should penalize a Hunter's flight speed too, or only their walking speed?

This approach does favor the "still needs feather" argument others have brought up. The "serious decomposition renders the
corpse useless" would seem to cover "so rotted the feathers fell out" bit, and inherit feather-dependence just as it would be muscle-dependent.

It's not a task; it's a means of locomotion. See above.

I disagree with you that we cannot perceive locomotion as a task. For example:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 72377.html "A shark is an infinitely more impressive creature, perfectly adapted to the task of swimming"

http://www.elimarpigeons.com/Article3/NRCCLer14.htm "The section winner from Lerwick, a blue bar hen, was given the task of flying from the Shetland Islands because she had been a consistent performer although never having previously picked up win."

So even if we do not have a stated speed, locomotion like swimming/flying are clearly "tasks". The question is whether or not they are "simple".

I wouldn't say swimming is simple for a human corpse but it should be simple for a crocodile corpse. Flying could be simpler for some forms of birds than others. I don't know if it would be as simple for a chicken zombie as a sparrow zombie.

What makes you think that zombies, mummies, and (especially) animated dead have any instincts?

The ability to do anything at all, like understand language, know how to swing their limbs to attack people, to perceive and follow a target. Without instincts, you couldn't teach Animated Dead in particular fast enough for them to be useful. They would expire before learning how to throw a punch or swing a sword.

Even baby humans, who we know do have instincts, cannot do this for years!

[Killer Cyborg]

The only time the a Speed attribute measures anything other than running is when a different form of locomotion is specified, which is why creatures that can fly have their flight Speed noted as an exception to the rule that Speed means running. Ditto with creatures that can swim, and so forth: non-running speeds are listed differently because they're exceptions to the rule.
There is no such stated exception when it comes to mummies, zombies, or animated dead.

It is possible to gain a swimming speed from a skill, so a rogue scholar who teaches swimming as a secondary skill to a mummy/zombie should be able to impart that.

The books are unclear on whether or not mummies/zombies can be taught skills, and which skills IF it's even possible.
That's something left up to the GM.
But yes, IF something outside of the spell that creates grants the ability to swim to zombies/mummies, then they can swim.
By that same token, if you cast Fly As The Eagle on a zombie bird, THEN it can fly for the duration of the spell as per the Fly As The Eagle spell's description.

No point with animated dead since they wouldn't be around enough to learn it.

They can't learn anything anyway. There's no consciousness there; it's all the mage using corpses as puppets.

Golems too, although to benefit from it you'd probably have to rig up a really decent life jacket so they could actually float, as otherwise I think the stone/iron would sink and they couldn't swim.

They might be able to swim in sufficiently dense substances, such as lava (if protected from heat) or mercury.

As there is no skill which can teach flight speed, I do see your point in that they have no stated means of getting it.

As an aside, I've always thought that there should be a skill that teaches one to fly if one has wings.
But alas, there isn't.

TTGD 59 version of "Create Zombie" could be an exception, since rather than introducing a new set of stats, it simply modifies the stats of existing beings. It even says it works on Hunters, who we know can fly, and doesn't say anything about them losing their ability to fly.

Without looking at the specific text, that could indeed be an exception.

KC do you think that "3 Reduce the original P P , P B , and Spd attributes to half" should penalize a Hunter's flight speed too, or only their walking speed?

Not familiar with the Hunter, but offhand I at least see room for a GM to interpret the spell to allow a creature with a listed Speed attribute for flight to retain it (at 1/2) using this spell.

This approach does favor the "still needs feather" argument others have brought up. The "serious decomposition renders the corpse useless" would seem to cover "so rotted the feathers fell out" bit, and inherit feather-dependence just as it would be muscle-dependent.

Agreed.
Although because magic is in play, I suppose a GM could rule the other way.

It's not a task; it's a means of locomotion. See above.

I disagree with you that we cannot perceive locomotion as a task.

Find me a Palladium RPG example of locomotion specifically being a task.

The question is whether or not they are "simple".

That would indeed be the second question.

I wouldn't say swimming is simple for a human corpse but it should be simple for a crocodile corpse. Flying could be simpler for some forms of birds than others. I don't know if it would be as simple for a chicken zombie as a sparrow zombie.

Zombies and mummies, though, are creatures in their own right. They're not human corpses or animal corpses (assuming that animal corpses can even be made into zombies or mummies in the first place); they're a specific kind of magically-created undead that are created by specific spells.
They don't retain AR or other features of the original corpse.

What makes you think that zombies, mummies, and (especially) animated dead have any instincts?

The ability to do anything at all, like understand language, know how to swing their limbs to attack people, to perceive and follow a target. Without instincts, you couldn't teach Animated Dead in particular fast enough for them to be useful. They would expire before learning how to throw a punch or swing a sword.

You can't teach Animated Dead anything: they're just puppets.

With mummies/zombies I can see the argument... but as with Golems any instincts would be an effect of the spell, not an effect of the original material that is brought to semi-life.

[Axelmania]

Find me a Palladium RPG example of locomotion specifically being a task.

As a start perhaps you could provide a list of explicit "tasks" in the books so we know what we can include, since you seem to be taking the approach that they can't do anything Palladium doesn't explicitly refer to as a task somewhere.

[Killer Cyborg]

Find me a Palladium RPG example of locomotion specifically being a task.

As a start perhaps you could provide a list of explicit "tasks" in the books so we know what we can include, since you seem to be taking the approach that they can't do anything Palladium doesn't explicitly refer to as a task somewhere.

That’s not my argument.
My argument is that locomotion is not a task.
You tried to argue that it IS a task, but you used sources with different contexts than the one we’re in.

[eliakon]

I would just like to point out that "SPD" is listed in many creatures stat blocks even if they are not capable of running so the claim that SPD only represents running is flawed.
It would seem that the company considers it as "how far you can move" not "how far you can run" since we are given Spds for things that fly, swim, crawl, ooze, brachiate, roll, slither, and otherwise do not and physically can not run.
I can simply demonstrate that the claim is false with the simple expedient of making a zombie out of a cottonmouth snake.
Cottonmouth snakes have "Speed: Land-7 Water-5"
They are also incapable of running as they do not have legs and I will note that it is impossible to run in water.
Unless create zombie bestows legs on the snake AND provides it with the ability to run in water then it is not possible for the speed stat to only represent running.

Edit
The book Monsters & Animals codifies this into canon.
Page 106 "As with humanoid characters, an animal's speed score is tis raw ability to run (or fly or swim). The speeds listed under the animal entries do not represent top speeds."
As Monsters & Animals is cited as the source for the statistics of animals in every game line that would suggest that this line should be treated as the canon stance on animals and speed unless there is a specific statement to the contrary in another book.

[Killer Cyborg]

I would just like to point out that "SPD" is listed in many creatures stat blocks even if they are not capable of running so the claim that SPD only represents running is flawed.
It would seem that the company considers it as "how far you can move" not "how far you can run" since we are given Spds for things that fly, swim, crawl, ooze, brachiate, roll, slither, and otherwise do not and physically can not run.
I can simply demonstrate that the claim is false with the simple expedient of making a zombie out of a cottonmouth snake.
Cottonmouth snakes have "Speed: Land-7 Water-5"
They are also incapable of running as they do not have legs and I will note that it is impossible to run in water.
Unless create zombie bestows legs on the snake AND provides it with the ability to run in water then it is not possible for the speed stat to only represent running.

Edit
The book Monsters & Animals codifies this into canon.
Page 106 "As with humanoid characters, an animal's speed score is tis raw ability to run (or fly or swim). The speeds listed under the animal entries do not represent top speeds."
As Monsters & Animals is cited as the source for the statistics of animals in every game line that would suggest that this line should be treated as the canon stance on animals and speed unless there is a specific statement to the contrary in another book.

Well argued and well sourced; I retract my argument about the Speed attribute.

IF animals can be made into zombies, and IF zombies can retain Abilities of their former self, then I can now see a decent technical argument that their zombie/mummy SPD attribute would apply to other forms of locomotion.

So that’s one objection down!

[Axelmania]

you used sources with different contexts than the one we’re in.

I'm not sure what you mean by different contexts. Task is a broad word.