Titan Juicers

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Are Titan Juicers mortal creations of science?

Yes
10
83%
No
0
No votes
Other (post to explain yourself)
2
17%
 
Total votes: 12

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Titan Juicers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Are Titan Juicers mortal creations of science?
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by dreicunan »

With supernatural strength and thus capable of damaging vampires with their bare hands, yes they are.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

dreicunan wrote:With supernatural strength and thus capable of damaging vampires with their bare hands, yes they are.


Yup.
They're so science they're magic.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

So the both of you voted 'other' ?
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Mack »

So... KS doesn't like to write with firm, thoroughly defined terms. He likes to leave things loose and squishy. He prefers the flexibility that creates.

The downside is discussions like this one, where we run into something that doesn't exactly jive. We end up with a mundane, science based character with a 'beyond science' ability that appears to break the rules. The thing is, in KS's mind, there are no rules... just guidelines.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So the both of you voted 'other' ?


Nope.
They're clearly mortal creations of science.
The fact that they have Supernatural PS doesn't change that.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by dreicunan »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So the both of you voted 'other' ?


Nope.
They're clearly mortal creations of science.
The fact that they have Supernatural PS doesn't change that.

Indeed, just as being mortal creations of science doesn't change that they have Supernatural PS. The two things are not mutually exclusive (as clearly seen by the fact that a Eugenics character or an Experiment character from HU can have Supernatural PS of a purely scientific and mundane origin).
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Whether or not they have SNPS is not what the OP asked.
My question was asking if you had voted 'other' in the above poll as a prompt for people who seam to have read the poll to vote in the poll.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by dreicunan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Whether or not they have SNPS is not what the OP asked.
My question was asking if you had voted 'other' in the above poll as a prompt for people who seam to have read the poll to vote in the poll.

Yeah, we know what you asked, and we also remember a pretty obvious reason from a thread that you got locked by ignoring a Mod as to why you might be asking it.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Whether or not they have SNPS is not what the OP asked.
My question was asking if you had voted 'other' in the above poll as a prompt for people who seam to have read the poll to vote in the poll.


Since we both said "yes" in our posts, and you asked if we voted "other," it seemed like you were doing something else.
Since you weren't, then there's no more need to discuss it.
;)
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Axelmania »

Idea: what if we perceive the juicer drugs as mutating the human body, similar to how you can get SNPS via super powers?

Weren't Juicers compared to the Experiment category in Heroes Unlimited, who can also get SNPS despite also being mortal creations of science?
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by eliakon »

The book is pretty clear.
You take a mortal (non-mortals are explicitly not eligible)
You then give them technological implants, technological nanites, high tech drugs and use science to plate their bones with high tech metals...
...the result is a juicer who is bigger and stronger than the regular juicer.
That's pretty much the definition of "mortal creation of science" right there.

Any other question about them (such as if their strength is supernatural or just 'effectively' supernatural and/or if there is any difference between the two if so what.) would be a separate issue from the question of them being mortal or of them being creations of science.
We already know that pure science can be used to turn humans into various things including results that have psionic abilities and super powers. Thus there seems to be no question that it is possible for a being to be simultaneously a science based mortal and to having para-natural abilities.
Based on this knowledge though I can safely conclude that simply possessing supernatural strength is not a disqualifying feature for being either mortal or scientific in origin and thus the only answer to the question of "Are Titan Juicers mortal creations of science?" I can see is an unqualified "Yes" Titan Juicers are the mortal creations of science.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:Idea: what if we perceive the juicer drugs as mutating the human body, similar to how you can get SNPS via super powers?

Weren't Juicers compared to the Experiment category in Heroes Unlimited, who can also get SNPS despite also being mortal creations of science?

Then they would have the SNPS super power instead of what the text of the class says they have.
No, I am not going to argue with you. I am just stating why your idea does not fit with the core concept the class says it is.
And...
Your Idea also would preclude letting the Titan J from De-Toxing.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Prysus »

Greetings and Salutations. I voted "Other." Titan Juicers definitely started off as mortals, and Titan Juicers are created through science, but Juicers (final product) in general might not be mortal while "juiced." Note: Juicers have a finite life span and can be killed normally, but I used "mortal" as a category of being as Palladium will often distinguish "mortal" from other categories such as Creatures of Magic, even though Creatures of Magic are mortal in the more generic sense.

The reason I say this is there's a line in Vampire Kingdoms Revised, page 19. Juicers cannot be turned into a Vampire. Why? Because "the chemicals so dominate and transform their bodies that they are not truly human while 'juiced.'" They tell us they're not truly human anymore, and that this lack of being human is why they can't become Vampires. However, mortal S.D.C. D-Bees can still become vampires, so this indicates they're also different than normal, mortal S.D.C. beings as a whole as well (Palladium uses the term "transform" to describe what happened to their bodies). Once they undergo detox though, they can become Vampires again. As such, they'll be mortal humans again. So while I'm not exactly sure what they'd qualify as while "juiced," I'd say "Other" seems appropriate. At present, I'm not sure we have enough information go on.

Now, on a personal note, I feel the "not truly human" section is probably poorly written excuse why Juicers are immune, and that the implication that this makes them not mortal (as the category) like other D-Bees wasn't considered. However, that is opinion and I wanted to provide canon information first. Hopefully that helps. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Nightmask »

Prysus wrote:
Greetings and Salutations. I voted "Other." Titan Juicers definitely started off as mortals, and Titan Juicers are created through science, but Juicers (final product) in general might not be mortal while "juiced." Note: Juicers have a finite life span and can be killed normally, but I used "mortal" as a category of being as Palladium will often distinguish "mortal" from other categories such as Creatures of Magic, even though Creatures of Magic are mortal in the more generic sense.

The reason I say this is there's a line in Vampire Kingdoms Revised, page 19. Juicers cannot be turned into a Vampire. Why? Because "the chemicals so dominate and transform their bodies that they are not truly human while 'juiced.'" They tell us they're not truly human anymore, and that this lack of being human is why they can't become Vampires. However, mortal S.D.C. D-Bees can still become vampires, so this indicates they're also different than normal, mortal S.D.C. beings as a whole as well (Palladium uses the term "transform" to describe what happened to their bodies). Once they undergo detox though, they can become Vampires again. As such, they'll be mortal humans again. So while I'm not exactly sure what they'd qualify as while "juiced," I'd say "Other" seems appropriate. At present, I'm not sure we have enough information go on.

Now, on a personal note, I feel the "not truly human" section is probably poorly written excuse why Juicers are immune, and that the implication that this makes them not mortal (as the category) like other D-Bees wasn't considered. However, that is opinion and I wanted to provide canon information first. Hopefully that helps. Farewell and safe journeys to all.


Wow, revised Vampire Kingdoms screwed up a lot of things it looks like. That's REALLY crazy to label Juicers as not being capable of being transformed into a vampire because they're full of chemicals and therefor somehow that's making them not really human anymore. That's grade A ridiculous.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by eliakon »

Prysus wrote:
Greetings and Salutations. I voted "Other." Titan Juicers definitely started off as mortals, and Titan Juicers are created through science, but Juicers (final product) in general might not be mortal while "juiced." Note: Juicers have a finite life span and can be killed normally, but I used "mortal" as a category of being as Palladium will often distinguish "mortal" from other categories such as Creatures of Magic, even though Creatures of Magic are mortal in the more generic sense.

The reason I say this is there's a line in Vampire Kingdoms Revised, page 19. Juicers cannot be turned into a Vampire. Why? Because "the chemicals so dominate and transform their bodies that they are not truly human while 'juiced.'" They tell us they're not truly human anymore, and that this lack of being human is why they can't become Vampires. However, mortal S.D.C. D-Bees can still become vampires, so this indicates they're also different than normal, mortal S.D.C. beings as a whole as well (Palladium uses the term "transform" to describe what happened to their bodies). Once they undergo detox though, they can become Vampires again. As such, they'll be mortal humans again. So while I'm not exactly sure what they'd qualify as while "juiced," I'd say "Other" seems appropriate. At present, I'm not sure we have enough information go on.

Now, on a personal note, I feel the "not truly human" section is probably poorly written excuse why Juicers are immune, and that the implication that this makes them not mortal (as the category) like other D-Bees wasn't considered. However, that is opinion and I wanted to provide canon information first. Hopefully that helps. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

Hmmmm
Interesting.
My thoughts are that it is some sort of temporary transformation of some sort (which is pretty much a given since there is no other way that simply pumping someone with drugs, no matter how much, is going to give them hundreds of SDC/HP or turn them into MDC beings. Basically the Mega-Juicer is not an aberration... it is simply the most extreme end of a spectrum of transformations.
And that while you are transformed you are not, exactly, a 'human' in the same way that while "humans" can use Tattoo magic... there are lists of humans who can not use them... basically being human is not a single binary condition but a series of binary states that collectively form a spectrum. All yes and your a "base line human" all no and your "not human" some yes some no you are "humanish"

In HU terms this is making me start to think of the Empowered category who can use a chemical to trigger super powers...
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Nightmask wrote:
Prysus wrote:
Greetings and Salutations. I voted "Other." Titan Juicers definitely started off as mortals, and Titan Juicers are created through science, but Juicers (final product) in general might not be mortal while "juiced." Note: Juicers have a finite life span and can be killed normally, but I used "mortal" as a category of being as Palladium will often distinguish "mortal" from other categories such as Creatures of Magic, even though Creatures of Magic are mortal in the more generic sense.

The reason I say this is there's a line in Vampire Kingdoms Revised, page 19. Juicers cannot be turned into a Vampire. Why? Because "the chemicals so dominate and transform their bodies that they are not truly human while 'juiced.'" They tell us they're not truly human anymore, and that this lack of being human is why they can't become Vampires. However, mortal S.D.C. D-Bees can still become vampires, so this indicates they're also different than normal, mortal S.D.C. beings as a whole as well (Palladium uses the term "transform" to describe what happened to their bodies). Once they undergo detox though, they can become Vampires again. As such, they'll be mortal humans again. So while I'm not exactly sure what they'd qualify as while "juiced," I'd say "Other" seems appropriate. At present, I'm not sure we have enough information go on.

Now, on a personal note, I feel the "not truly human" section is probably poorly written excuse why Juicers are immune, and that the implication that this makes them not mortal (as the category) like other D-Bees wasn't considered. However, that is opinion and I wanted to provide canon information first. Hopefully that helps. Farewell and safe journeys to all.


Wow, revised Vampire Kingdoms screwed up a lot of things it looks like. That's REALLY crazy to label Juicers as not being capable of being transformed into a vampire because they're full of chemicals and therefor somehow that's making them not really human anymore. That's grade A ridiculous.


... meh? Its not just chemicals, but lots and lots of tiny cybernetic implants, the Bio-comp, drug harness. Its a fairly intrusive set of cybernetic medical implants. Its not quite on the level of being a ‘borg, but its enough to muddle with the vamprie-creation process. I think putting it down to “the chemicals” is a weak explanation, but “theres enough cybernetics and other technology, that combined with their bloodstream being full of chemicals and drugs, they cant be converted.” is close enough for goverment work. For the same reason, id say that vampires cant even feed from Juicers - their blood is so out of whack it just doesnt nourish them.

But on the list of “thats absurd and/or rediculous” things Palladium has done (particularly with Rifts, and particularely lately) i dont even think we scratch the top 20 here.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Well some of you might of been wondering why I started this topic when you thought "the matter" was settled. You might even think I found something that was not brought up a month ago. Yes I did. But I have been waiting for all of the principles to give voice before pointing it out. As of today, December sixteenth, the votes in the poll are 8 yes's, 0 no's, and two others's. Given the posts one of the yes's is discounted into an 'other' by a poster saying he had said, in not so many words, that he meant 'other'. Another poster voted 'other' but in his post didn't give an answer to the poll question and brought up a tangent for his meaning of the other vote.

That leave the totals at 7 unqualified yes's, two qualified yes's, no decenters, and one left field comment represented in the poll voting.

As a Review what we know about Titan Juicers.
*They mortals.
*They are creations of science. No magic or psionics were used in making them.
*Their psychic abilities (PPE/ISP) were not enhanced by implants.
*Specifically said not to be supernatural.
*Specifically said that their raw strength is equivalent to a supernatural being. (read in context means: similar but not 'the same as'.)
*Their Str. is "considered" to be supernatural when talking about Lift/carry capacity.
*The Mega-Damage inflicted is equal to that of SNPS.

In other words they are Juicers that can do MD with their hand to hand attacks that has not been mystically enhanced.

The Titan Juicer Text goes so far as to say that they are unlike the Mega Juicer.

Now to bring in some science principles.
When reviewing old documents to figure out what they meant to the writer, the reader needs to understand the time that the documents were written. As such when an old Aramaic story says 'the young man said to his father that he wanted his inheritance' to the modern reader that doesn't seam all that bad. But when looked at it in the eyes of those of the time the young man is saying 'Die already, I want my share of the inheritance now.'

So what does this tell us now, about Titan Juicers.
At the time only supernaturals had SNPS. And the text specifically says that TJ's Are Not SuperNatural. Thus the text is saying that 'while we are using the short cuts of just using the SNPS terminology, the Titan Juicers are not on the same metaphysical level as true SuperNatural Beings.' Surprise Surprise, humans are lazy and will cut corners.

On To Page 80 of VKr.
This section lists Who can damage vampires with just their hand to hand attacks as those with the metaphysical level of Being a Supernatural Being, Being a CoM, and having the SNPS Super Ability(aka: superpower). According to the rules of writing the last phrase in the section is referencing Back To the two other types of beings that are said to have SNPS within the section Titled Supernatural Beings. Since this an enclosed section, interpreting that it is not referencing SN Beings and People with the SNPS SA is not applying what is taught in english/writing classes to this text.

Since the Text establishes that the Titan Juicers Do Not Have the Same SNPS as a Dragon or Demon, and only has an extreme case of augmented P.S. similar to that all mundane juicers have.

VKr Page 76
Note: Augmented and Robotic P.S. does no damage to vampires even if the 'Brog or 'Bot is capable of inflicting Mega-Damage. Supernatural P.S. is on an entirely different metaphysical level, which is why it works and other M.D. attacks by mortals and creations of science do not.


There was no decenting votes about Titan Juicers being both mortal and creations of science, the the only qualified votes have their qualifications not following rules how english writing works.

The only conclusion possible is that while the Titan Juicers Do M.D. with their full and power punches equal to the damage ratings as the same SNPS score. Titan Juicers do not do damage to vampires due to that their strength is not at the same metaphysical level as true SN beings' str.

This concludes my discusssion on this. If you want to have your own house rules, that is fine.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by dreicunan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Well some of you might of been wondering why I started this topic when you thought "the matter" was settled. You might even think I found something that was not brought up a month ago. Yes I did. But I have been waiting for all of the principles to give voice before pointing it out. As of today, December sixteenth, the votes in the poll are 8 yes's, 0 no's, and two others's. Given the posts one of the yes's is discounted into an 'other' by a poster saying he had said, in not so many words, that he meant 'other'. Another poster voted 'other' but in his post didn't give an answer to the poll question and brought up a tangent for his meaning of the other vote.

That leave the totals at 7 unqualified yes's, two qualified yes's, no decenters, and one left field comment represented in the poll voting.

As a Review what we know about Titan Juicers.
*They mortals.
*They are creations of science. No magic or psionics were used in making them.
*Their psychic abilities (PPE/ISP) were not enhanced by implants.
*Specifically said not to be supernatural.
*Specifically said that their raw strength is equivalent to a supernatural being. (read in context means: similar but not 'the same as'.)
*Their Str. is "considered" to be supernatural when talking about Lift/carry capacity.
*The Mega-Damage inflicted is equal to that of SNPS.

In other words they are Juicers that can do MD with their hand to hand attacks that has not been mystically enhanced.

The Titan Juicer Text goes so far as to say that they are unlike the Mega Juicer.

Now to bring in some science principles.
When reviewing old documents to figure out what they meant to the writer, the reader needs to understand the time that the documents were written. As such when an old Aramaic story says 'the young man said to his father that he wanted his inheritance' to the modern reader that doesn't seam all that bad. But when looked at it in the eyes of those of the time the young man is saying 'Die already, I want my share of the inheritance now.'

So what does this tell us now, about Titan Juicers.
At the time only supernaturals had SNPS. And the text specifically says that TJ's Are Not SuperNatural. Thus the text is saying that 'while we are using the short cuts of just using the SNPS terminology, the Titan Juicers are not on the same metaphysical level as true SuperNatural Beings.' Surprise Surprise, humans are lazy and will cut corners.

On To Page 80 of VKr.
This section lists Who can damage vampires with just their hand to hand attacks as those with the metaphysical level of Being a Supernatural Being, Being a CoM, and having the SNPS Super Ability(aka: superpower). According to the rules of writing the last phrase in the section is referencing Back To the two other types of beings that are said to have SNPS within the section Titled Supernatural Beings. Since this an enclosed section, interpreting that it is not referencing SN Beings and People with the SNPS SA is not applying what is taught in english/writing classes to this text.

Since the Text establishes that the Titan Juicers Do Not Have the Same SNPS as a Dragon or Demon, and only has an extreme case of augmented P.S. similar to that all mundane juicers have.

VKr Page 76
Note: Augmented and Robotic P.S. does no damage to vampires even if the 'Brog or 'Bot is capable of inflicting Mega-Damage. Supernatural P.S. is on an entirely different metaphysical level, which is why it works and other M.D. attacks by mortals and creations of science do not.


There was no decenting votes about Titan Juicers being both mortal and creations of science, the the only qualified votes have their qualifications not following rules how english writing works.

The only conclusion possible is that while the Titan Juicers Do M.D. with their full and power punches equal to the damage ratings as the same SNPS score. Titan Juicers do not do damage to vampires due to that their strength is not at the same metaphysical level as true SN beings' str.

This concludes my discusssion on this. If you want to have your own house rules, that is fine.

Thanks for sharing your house rule again. However, Titan Juicers have Supernatural PS, not robotic or augmented. That is made clear in multiple places that were pointed out to you in the previous thread. It is Supernatural PS. Supernatural PS, regardless of origin, does damage to vampires. Therefore the only possible conclusion based on a critical reading and keeping in mind how the English language works us that when it says on p. 34 of WB10 under point 2 of the Titan Juicer OCC abilities and bonuses that "this strength is supernatural," it means that the strength is supernatural. Since anyone with Supernatural PS can damage vampires, Titan Juicers can damage vampires. That is canon; anything else is a house rule. Given your signature, it is about time that you admitted that you are wrong; either that or change your signature since you are insisting on repeatedly presenting your house rule without clearly labeling it as such.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:VKr Page 76
Note: Augmented and Robotic P.S. does no damage to vampires even if the 'Brog or 'Bot is capable of inflicting Mega-Damage. Supernatural P.S. is on an entirely different metaphysical level, which is why it works and other M.D. attacks by mortals and creations of science do not.


There was no decenting votes about Titan Juicers being both mortal and creations of science, the the only qualified votes have their qualifications not following rules how english writing works.

The only conclusion possible is that while the Titan Juicers Do M.D. with their full and power punches equal to the damage ratings as the same SNPS score. Titan Juicers do not do damage to vampires due to that their strength is not at the same metaphysical level as true SN beings' str.


Uh... dude....?
You're doing English wrong.
"Supernatural P.S. is on an entirely different metaphysical level, which is why it works and other M.D. attacks by mortals and creations of science do not"
The phrasing clearly indicates that Supernatural PS can be a MD attack by mortals and creations of science.
Otherwise the word "other" wouldn't be there.

A Titan Juicer's punch is a Supernatural PS attack.
It is NOT an other MD attack.
It still works.

The rest of your post is stuff that we've gone over ad naseum, but I'm happy to go over it again if you like.
The short version is that there's no difference between Titan Juicer Supernatural PS and any other kind of Supernatural PS.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Mack »

Lock Warning.

I don't really see a need to re-hash this.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by eliakon »

In the interest of new content I have a question.
ATB on page 70 says that Crushing Strength is the same as Supernatural.
Does that mean that a creature with Crushing Strength that enters Rifts Earth via dimensional travel now does damage to things like Vampires?
I understand the reasoning for renaming it in ATB since the setting is a non-supernatural one so the name "supernatural" strength is rather inappropriate. I get that.
But if you move to Rifts it is no longer inappropriate so...
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by 13eowulf »

eliakon wrote:In the interest of new content I have a question.
ATB on page 70 says that Crushing Strength is the same as Supernatural.
Does that mean that a creature with Crushing Strength that enters Rifts Earth via dimensional travel now does damage to things like Vampires?
I understand the reasoning for renaming it in ATB since the setting is a non-supernatural one so the name "supernatural" strength is rather inappropriate. I get that.
But if you move to Rifts it is no longer inappropriate so...


As a follow-up to this, Per the official Rifter 50 article, Biotics and Host Armors can upgrade their P.S. to Supernatural.
So if they enter Rifts does that damage Vampires?
I mean, it is explicit that the it is Supernatural PS, even though they arent creatures of magic, etc.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by dreicunan »

They would damage vampires wherever they encountered them, be that in their own settings or on Rifts earth, so long as the vampires were vampire intelligence vampires a la WB1r.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Idea: what if we perceive the juicer drugs as mutating the human body, similar to how you can get SNPS via super powers?

Weren't Juicers compared to the Experiment category in Heroes Unlimited, who can also get SNPS despite also being mortal creations of science?

Then they would have the SNPS super power instead of what the text of the class says they have.
No, I am not going to argue with you. I am just stating why your idea does not fit with the core concept the class says it is.
And...
Your Idea also would preclude letting the Titan J from De-Toxing.


Not having the SNPS major power exactly (keep in mind that the minor power Superhuman PS is converted into SNPS in Rifts too) doesn't mean it doesn't fit with the core concept. I'm pretty sure the conversion book even stated that Juicers are like the Experiment category somewhere, so it is exactly the same concept.

If 20th-century science can give people supernatural strength then 22nd century science could also.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by 13eowulf »

Axelmania wrote:(keep in mind that the minor power Superhuman PS is converted into SNPS in Rifts too)

This is factually incorrect. Per the Revised Conversion Book 1, pg 45, it becomes Robotic Strength, not Supernatual.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by dreicunan »

13eowulf wrote:
Axelmania wrote:(keep in mind that the minor power Superhuman PS is converted into SNPS in Rifts too)

This is factually incorrect. Per the Revised Conversion Book 1, pg 45, it becomes Robotic Strength, not Supernatual.
He may be working off the original conversion book.

His larger point about HU science would stand, however, as there are "mundane creations of science" that can end up with Supernatural PS.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

dreicunan wrote:
13eowulf wrote:
Axelmania wrote:(keep in mind that the minor power Superhuman PS is converted into SNPS in Rifts too)

This is factually incorrect. Per the Revised Conversion Book 1, pg 45, it becomes Robotic Strength, not Supernatual.
He may be working off the original conversion book.

His larger point about HU science would stand, however, as there are "mundane creations of science" that can end up with Supernatural PS.


Yeah, when CB1 hit, Heroes was still 1st Ed. revised, and there was only a single enchanced strength power (the Minor ability Extraordinary Physical Strength) and CB1 converted it to Supernatural. (And, if i recall, Robotic PS and Augmented PS werent a thing yet, either... though im not 100% on that and dont have my books near me.).

In Heroes 2nd Ed, they added 2 more Strength powers, both “above” Extraordinary PS, and Augmented and Robotic had definitely been codified, so it made sense to map the three strength powers to the three strength types.

Nevertheless, a “human creation of science” can still get The Supernatural P.S. Major power, and would therefore have Supernatural Strength.

Heck, even in Rifts, there are “humna creations of science” that straight-up become Supernatural Beings - Mega Juicers.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Heck, even in Rifts, there are “human creations of science” that straight-up become Supernatural Beings - Mega Juicers.


Ah, but JU 38 states that the Mega-Juicer's PS "is considered to be supernatural," and some here claim that phrasing means that it's not actually supernatural.
So... don't expect your perfectly valid argument to hold sway over everybody.
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Re: Titan Juicers

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The Mega-juicer process harnesses latent psychic power, so it’s not purely a creation of science.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mack wrote:The Mega-juicer process harnesses latent psychic power, so it’s not purely a creation of science.


How is that not still purely a creation of science? Everything involved is due to science, there's no non-science/supernatural involved in the process that I remember so how is that not purely a creation of science?
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

What I see is people ignoring the canon text in the TJ class.

There are five ways in the canon text for a being to be able to have there h2h attacks hurt vamps.
Being a SN being.
Being a Creature of Magic.
Being a Super with the SNPS super ability.
Psychic Augmentation.
Magic Augmentation.

The Canon Text Says That The Titan Juicer Is NONE OF THESE.

What canon says is that their strength is a product of science, & products of science do not damage vamps.

I will contenue to state what canon says. Even thou you have your M.P. house rules that ignore the what the canon text says, based off a thread of a misrepresented phrase.

No, I will not Agree with y'all because you are blatently not including ALL what the canon text says. That is YOU saying YOUR house rules as if canon.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What I see is people ignoring the canon text in the TJ class.

There are five ways in the canon text for a being to be able to have there h2h attacks hurt vamps.
Being a SN being.
Being a Creature of Magic.
Being a Super with the SNPS super ability.
Psychic Augmentation.
Magic Augmentation.

The Canon Text Says That The Titan Juicer Is NONE OF THESE.

I will contenue to state what canon says, even thou you are ignoring Canon Text, even thou you have your M pandering house rules that ignore the what the canon text says.


Except you ignore the canon text that says that anybody with supernatural PS can hurt vampires.
Not sure why you ignore it, but it's there.

VK 80
However, creatures of magic who have Supernatural Strength do full damage, just like anyone else with Supernatural P.S.


Are Titan Juicers supernatural beings? No.
Are Titan Juicers Creatures of Magic? No.
Are Titan Juicers anybody else? Yes.
Do they have Supernatural PS? Yes.

So they can hurt vampires. End of story.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

KC
See the added edit to above post.

The rest of you keep ignoring that TJ's do not have True SNPS. Only a creation of science equivalent.

And the text says that creations of science can't do damage to vamp. Why should this be ignored? TJ's are creations of science. Yes, this takes putting two canon thing together to get. Instead of Cherry Picking which texts You want to use as Your canon.

I bet you that every single creature that has SNPS is ether SN or CoM. 13 mentioned a ""Mortal"" race with SNPS earlier. but when I went to look it up and what do I see?? A being that is a CoM.

As to this case..... Class Specific text trump the general rules when talking about that single class. And the TJ class text says that they are creations of science and not SN. This is the lens in which look ate the rest of the class text. When you factor those TWO Things into the mind when looking at the rest of the text for the class you see the writers just using (ie being lazy) to get the idea over that TJs while could arm wrestle a dragon, that they lack the Meta-physical component in their str. to have true SNPS.

This is the text the rest of you are blatantly ignoring to add into what the TJ class IS.

To put the difference simply into an analogy...while Tang is not Orange Juice. Even if the glasses are filled to the same level.

To put into RT terms....Fusion reactors art not Protoculture Reactors.....even if their power outputs are the same.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The rest of you keep ignoring that TJ's do not have True SNPS.


We're not ignoring that; you're making it up, based on text that is also present in Mega-Juicer description.
Unless you're going to argue that Mega-Juicers don't have real supernatural PS, your logic simply does not follow.

It also hinges on you ignoring text that says "their strength is supernatural," and I don't know how much clearer things could get.

And the text says that creations of science can't do damage to vamp.


I addressed this.
The text you quoted actually doesn't say that.
What it says is "Supernatural PS is on an entirely different, metaphysical level, which is why it works and other MD attacks by mortals and their creations of science do not."

Supernatural strength works. OTHER attacks by mortals or creations of science do not.
This text is saying that mortals or creations of science with SNPS do damage vampires.

Why should this be ignored?


It's not ignored.
I addressed it earlier, and just again.

This is the text the rest of you are blatantly ignoring to add into what the TJ class IS.


As the canon I've cited clearly shows, the ONLY thing that a Titan Juicer needs to be is:
1. Anybody with Supernatural PS.
End of list.

JU 34
This strength is supernatural
End of story.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Nightmask wrote:
Mack wrote:The Mega-juicer process harnesses latent psychic power, so it’s not purely a creation of science.


How is that not still purely a creation of science? Everything involved is due to science, there's no non-science/supernatural involved in the process that I remember so how is that not purely a creation of science?


Ill second that. It takes a purely mortal, non-supernatural creature, and at the end of a completley science and technology-based procedure, they are turned into a supernatural being. Its not like a Dragon Juicer, where magic and supernatural components are combined with technology.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Mack wrote:The Mega-juicer process harnesses latent psychic power, so it’s not purely a creation of science.


How is that not still purely a creation of science? Everything involved is due to science, there's no non-science/supernatural involved in the process that I remember so how is that not purely a creation of science?


Ill second that. It takes a purely mortal, non-supernatural creature, and at the end of a completley science and technology-based procedure, they are turned into a supernatural being. Its not like a Dragon Juicer, where magic and supernatural components are combined with technology.


It takes people with high PPE, and with psionic powers, and adds science until they're something supernatural.
I can see arguments either way, mostly hinging on whether or not psionics are something considered "supernatural" or not.
If they are, then the CS has a lot of supernatural people working for them.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by dreicunan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:KC
See the added edit to above post.

The rest of you keep ignoring that TJ's do not have True SNPS. Only a creation of science equivalent.

And the text says that creations of science can't do damage to vamp. Why should this be ignored? TJ's are creations of science. Yes, this takes putting two canon thing together to get. Instead of Cherry Picking which texts You want to use as Your canon.

I bet you that every single creature that has SNPS is ether SN or CoM. 13 mentioned a ""Mortal"" race with SNPS earlier. but when I went to look it up and what do I see?? A being that is a CoM.

As to this case..... Class Specific text trump the general rules when talking about that single class. And the TJ class text says that they are creations of science and not SN. This is the lens in which look ate the rest of the class text. When you factor those TWO Things into the mind when looking at the rest of the text for the class you see the writers just using (ie being lazy) to get the idea over that TJs while could arm wrestle a dragon, that they lack the Meta-physical component in their str. to have true SNPS.

This is the text the rest of you are blatantly ignoring to add into what the TJ class IS.

To put the difference simply into an analogy...while Tang is not Orange Juice. Even if the glasses are filled to the same level.

To put into RT terms....Fusion reactors art not Protoculture Reactors.....even if their power outputs are the same.

Did you do any research at all about mortal beings and Supernatural PS? Crab Warriors have supernatural PS and are neither supernatural nor CoM (WB30 p. 48-51), as is the case for the Deer Horn Tribesman (WB30 p. 61-63), Forest Wardens (WB30 p. 91-93), Grackle Tooth (WB30 p. 97-98), Greot Hunters (WB30 p. 98-100), Lanotaur Hunter (WB30 p. 115-117), the Lyn-Srial (see either WB 30 or WB 14), Mastadonoids, Obsedai can get it when in fury mode, Power Leech, Sasquatch, Tirrvol Sword Fist, Tokanii, Yhabbayar, to name a few that one can find by glancing through WB30.

Oh, and the Horune, Pogtal Dragon Slayers, and Zentih Moon Warpers are of disputed classification.

So there is a numerous but by no means exhaustive list of mortal creatures who are neither supernatural nor creatures of magic that have Supernatural PS. You've lost that bet. What ate you going to forfeit?
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I am sorry but I have Addressed all of your dismissals and ignoring.
Here is more ""addressing"".
● MJ's....Their conversion enhances a meta-physical ability already in the character. There is nothing like this text in the TJ text.
● Class specific rules for one class does not effect any class specific rules for a different class.
In other words when the TJ class rules say that their PS is not true SNPS due to saying it is only equivalent to SNPS Class specific rules from any other class is not taken in account. Yes, you have to take the text of the class AS A WHOLE to get to this, but it is there for those willing to see it. And because Specific Class Rules trump the general rules (like how even thou the Ecohunter in WoR was not mentioned in VKr of being able to hurt vamps, their class specific rules that say thy can means that they do hurt vamps.) the class specific rules for the Titan Juicers that say that that do not have true SNPS take precedent over any other rules.
● When the JU book was written only the SN/CoM could harm vamps with their bare handed attacks. And it was Because they were SN/CoM. Factoring that into the analysis of whether or mot the TJ as the class was written do damage to vamps, is 'No, They Do Not'. which is Why They went through the trouble of writing that into the class by indicating that they do no have true SNPS.

● As such TJ's 2h attacks ARE "other MD attacks by mortals and their creations of science".

To spell it out for those that do not understand it: The TJ's str, is a Knock-Off of SNPS because it is only a supercharged Augmented PS. Not having the Metaphysical-Level that the SN, CoM have.

Nothing in VKr changes that TJs never did have true SNPS. It is only thous people excluding canon text to modify the meaning of the class's text to get a "Power Up" by deliberately ignoring the forest by only looking at One Tree. And that tree is not even the tree they think it is because they don't even see that it is connected to the tree standing next to it.

----
Crab Warriors: CoM or SN...mundanes do not bio-regen w/o meta-physical help.
DHT/DHS: seam to be CoM due to natural magic abilities.
GT: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
GH: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
FW: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
LH: Are CoM with innate magical and psionic abilities.
LS: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
Mastadonoid: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
Obsedai: equivalent to Robotic P.S. w/o mystical enhancement.
PL: SN
.
.
.

Looks like you just went through the WB 30 and wrote down every race with SNPS that was not overtly declared SN/CoM w/o digging into the details of the races. This is nearly the same thing I've been talking about. You people are not taking the whole text of the class (or race in this case) into account before making a statement & therefor the statement you make it wrong.

To paraphrase a famous person...
If you are going to go about making a house, don't go building it on sand instead of using a firm rock foundation.
I have doted every i and crossed every t. But y'all seam to want to tear things down to no dots on the i's and just have l's where t's are meant to be used.
:roll:
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by 13eowulf »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I am sorry but I have Addressed all of your dismissals and ignoring.
Here is more ""addressing"".
● MJ's....Their conversion enhances a meta-physical ability already in the character. There is nothing like this text in the TJ text.
● Class specific rules for one class does not effect any class specific rules for a different class.
In other words when the TJ class rules say that their PS is not true SNPS due to saying it is only equivalent to SNPS Class specific rules from any other class is not taken in account. Yes, you have to take the text of the class AS A WHOLE to get to this, but it is there for those willing to see it. And because Specific Class Rules trump the general rules (like how even thou the Ecohunter in WoR was not mentioned in VKr of being able to hurt vamps, their class specific rules that say thy can means that they do hurt vamps.) the class specific rules for the Titan Juicers that say that that do not have true SNPS take precedent over any other rules.
● When the JU book was written only the SN/CoM could harm vamps with their bare handed attacks. And it was Because they were SN/CoM. Factoring that into the analysis of whether or mot the TJ as the class was written do damage to vamps, is 'No, They Do Not'. which is Why They went through the trouble of writing that into the class by indicating that they do no have true SNPS.

● As such TJ's 2h attacks ARE "other MD attacks by mortals and their creations of science".

To spell it out for those that do not understand it: The TJ's str, is a Knock-Off of SNPS because it is only a supercharged Augmented PS. Not having the Metaphysical-Level that the SN, CoM have.

Nothing in VKr changes that TJs never did have true SNPS. It is only thous people excluding canon text to modify the meaning of the class's text to get a "Power Up" by deliberately ignoring the forest by only looking at One Tree. And that tree is not even the tree they think it is because they don't even see that it is connected to the tree standing next to it.

----
Crab Warriors: CoM or SN...mundanes do not bio-regen w/o meta-physical help.
DHT/DHS: seam to be CoM due to natural magic abilities.
GT: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
GH: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
FW: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
LH: Are CoM with innate magical and psionic abilities.
LS: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
Mastadonoid: appears to be a lesser SN being with regeneration.
Obsedai: equivalent to Robotic P.S. w/o mystical enhancement.
PL: SN
.
.
.

Looks like you just went through the WB 30 and wrote down every race with SNPS that was not overtly declared SN/CoM w/o digging into the details of the races. This is nearly the same thing I've been talking about. You people are not taking the whole text of the class (or race in this case) into account before making a statement & therefor the statement you make it wrong.

To paraphrase a famous person...
If you are going to go about making a house, don't go building it on sand instead of using a firm rock foundation.
I have doted every i and crossed every t. But y'all seam to want to tear things down to no dots on the i's and just have l's where t's are meant to be used.
:roll:


Regarding the the D-Bees from D-Bees of North America, you are incorrect per canon text.
Rifts World Book 30, page 7, second column, first full paragraph wrote:A D-Bee is NEVER a true creature of magic - beings like Faerie Fold and dragons - nor supernatural beings such as demons and Deevils.

Every D-Bee with SNPS (in WB 30 at a very minimum) is explicitly neither a COM nor a SN being, by the canon text.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I am sorry but I have Addressed all of your dismissals and ignoring.
Here is more ""addressing"".
● MJ's....Their conversion enhances a meta-physical ability already in the character. There is nothing like this text in the TJ text.


So what?
Do you think that makes it so that when the Titan Juicer description states "The character's strength is considered supernatural" that there's something about the phrase "is considered supernatural" that changes from "is not actually supernatural" as you interpret it in the Titan Juicer description to "is actually supernatural"....?
It's the exact same words in two places.
If you think that they mean two different things, for the love of God explain in detail why you think that.

OR just concede that just perhaps when Palladium writes "the character's strength is considered supernatural," that it means that their strength actually IS supernatural, and that in both cases (ALL cases, really, because this phrasing is used more than just the two times) that it means the same thing.

● Class specific rules for one class does not effect any class specific rules for a different class.
In other words when the TJ class rules say that their PS is not true SNPS due to saying it is only equivalent to SNPS Class specific rules from any other class is not taken in account.


The problem is that this is something that you're making up.
The Titan Juicer never says that their PS is not "true supernatural PS."
The phrase and concept "true supernatural PS" is a thing of your invention that has no concept in the actual rules of the game.
And it's hinged on phrasing that is present multiple times when it's describing what even you consider to be "true supernatural PS."

And even if there were some kind of canon "untrue supernatural strength," there is nothing in the rules precluding it from any other kind of SNPS.
The rules state that anybody with SNPS can harm vampires.
They don't say anything about only certain kinds of SNPS harming vampires.
They don't say anything about SNPS from only certain kinds of people or creatures harming vampires.
The rules state that ANYBODY with SNPS can harm vampires.
Titan Juicers have SNPS.
Therefore, Titan Juicers can harm vampires.

Yes, you have to take the text of the class AS A WHOLE to get to this,


You have to take the text of the class as a whole, then ignore part of it ("this strength is supernatural"), then ignore part of the text of other classes ("the character's strength is considered to be supernatural"), THEN you have to make up some stuff, stick it all in a blender, pour the result onto the floor and read it like an augurer reads entrails.

the class specific rules for the Titan Juicers that say that that do not have true SNPS....


This is simply untrue.
It is a false claim.

● When the JU book was written only the SN/CoM could harm vamps with their bare handed attacks. And it was Because they were SN/CoM.


But this changed in VKr, and now anybody with supernatural PS can harm vampires according to the rules.

● As such TJ's 2h attacks ARE "other MD attacks by mortals and their creations of science".


Untrue.
The Titan Juicer's attacks are still supernatural strength, which by definition is NOT an "other attack" from supernatural strength.
Supernatural PS by mortals and creations of science harm vampires; other attacks do not.
Titan Juicers are mortal creatures with SNPS, so they can harm vampires.

To spell it out for those that do not understand it: The TJ's str, is a Knock-Off of SNPS because it is only a supercharged Augmented PS. Not having the Metaphysical-Level that the SN, CoM have.


We understand your concept.
The problem is that it's simply untrue.
The books clearly state that Titan Juicers have Supernatural PS.
All the imagination in the world isn't going to change that.

Nothing in VKr changes that TJs never did have true SNPS.


Palladium did not see fit to actively rule out something that you've imagined but that is nowhere in canon.
Color me astonished.
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Re: Titan Juicers

Unread post by Mack »

Enough.
Some gave all.
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Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.
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