rare spells no longer seem rare in Ultimate Edition

[Axelmania]

RUEp115-116 under 10. Initial Spell Knowledge has the usual "Initial Spell Knowledge" from 1-4 and gaining new spells as you advance limited by your level...

.. but under 8. Affinity with Magic it imparts additional spells per each level up if you simply do a 48 hour meditation on a ley line... and these are some really high level rare spells! You could get Dimensional Portal (a level 15 spell) at 2nd level this way!

March 2003's Dimension Book 7 (Megaverse Builder) pg 41 had already introduced DP as a starting spell for Shifters, something RUEp120 has kept in place.

Isn't the ley line walker the most common magical OCC on the planet? I think Shifters also ranked #4 or something, after Mystics and Warlocks. Think this was in the original FoM somewhere but can't find it in the revised...

With such easy access to high level spells for low level characters... do RUE p 190's "Purchasing Magic" guidelines really make sense?

If every single shifter out there knows Dimensional Portal and can make 500,000 - 1 million selling it... I have to think it would be a buyer's market and that availability would be so wide that they would start cutting prices to compete for customers, driving the price down.

That it would be 'rarely available' (10% chance) just seems off... At least naturally.

For this to be true, I think we need to introduce some RP-like explanations. For example: dimensional rifts are very dangerous, so there is a code not to sell this spell, and there is a Society of Shifters who try to kill anybody buying or selling this spell.

They obviously wouldn't go after powerhouses but might go after your random level 1 caster who gets taught this spell by a friend and is easy pickings... thus keeping it rare.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Which presumes everyone who knows a spell is willing to sell it for money.

Just because an ordinary carpenter is hypothetically able to teach anyone how to build a fancy desk and chair for money, does not mean they have any interesting in spending their days doing so, no matter how much money you offer them: they have a life to live.

Generally they'll take a handful of apprentices to teach in a hands on manner.

This is how it's passed on in the new one. Sure, any Shifters mentor would have taught their apprentice it: but why should shifters waste their time teaching others it?

Same goes for any complex skill really. even if a lot of people know it, doesn't mean they're interested going into the teaching business.

Put another way: All Operators have Mechanical Engineer. Doesn't make Engineering School any cheeper. Sure, any given operator COULD teach you, but why would they? it has to be expensive to make it worth their time. Not like they get anything out of teaching you. A shifter doesn't need some cabal of shifters trying to hunt him down if he teaches anyone the spell (how would they possibly know prove anything anyway? It's a shifter. can just go to some random dimension no one has heard of and teach beyond their sight). The shifter just needs to A: have better things to do with their time, and B: have ways to make money that are less of a hassle.

Really the best way to earn money for a shifter is open portals to Beyond the suprnatural and/or Heroes Unlimited, buy bunches of pre-rifts artifacts for at modern prices, then sell stacks of CD's and audiobooks for thousands each. It's easier, faster, likely more profitable all told: there's an absolute limit to how many mages would want to pay for Dimensional Portal and would have the money to do so, and know where you, personally, are, while pre-rifts artifacts have a booming demand everywhere and are almost as good as cash in many areas.

[Sir_Spirit]

Toilet paper and shoes would make you more money.

[Mack]

Keep in mind that spending 48 hours meditating on a Ley Line is not a trivial task. Ley Lines attract all manner of supernatural creatures and demons which view the LLW as "crunchy, but tasty with ketchup." If the GM takes a strict interpretation and requires the LLW to spend 48 hours uninterrupted, then the task may very well be impossible without a considerable support team.

If attempted in one of the magic cities, the safety factor goes way up but at the risk of many more mundane interruptions.

"Hey, Bob just started his two day meditation. I figure sometime tomorrow afternoon I'm gonna push him over so he has to start again."

[dreicunan]

Keep in mind that spending 48 hours meditating on a Ley Line is not a trivial task. Ley Lines attract all manner of supernatural creatures and demons which view the LLW as "crunchy, but tasty with ketchup." If the GM takes a strict interpretation and requires the LLW to spend 48 hours uninterrupted, then the task may very well be impossible without a considerable support team.

If attempted in one of the magic cities, the safety factor goes way up but at the risk of many more mundane interruptions.

"Hey, Bob just started his two day meditation. I figure sometime tomorrow afternoon I'm gonna push him over so he has to start again."

I have hardly ever played magic users, so this post was a great "oh, I guess that was a house rule" moment, because when I first read it, I thought that it wouldn't be dangerous since the LLW would be phased, but then double checked the booked and realized that this phased into the line while meditating on a ley line thing must have been a house rule by my GM!

[drewkitty ~..~]

RUEp115-116 under 10. Initial Spell Knowledge has the usual "Initial Spell Knowledge" from 1-4 and gaining new spells as you advance limited by your level...

.. but under 8. Affinity with Magic it imparts additional spells per each level up if you simply do a 48 hour meditation on a ley line... and these are some really high level rare spells! You could get Dimensional Portal (a level 15 spell) at 2nd level this way!

March 2003's Dimension Book 7 (Megaverse Builder) pg. 41 had already introduced DP as a starting spell for Shifters, something RUEp120 has kept in place.

With such easy access to high level spells for low level characters... do RUE p 190's "Purchasing Magic" guidelines really make sense?

If every single shifter out there knows Dimensional Portal and can make 500,000 - 1 million selling it... I have to think it would be a buyer's market and that availability would be so wide that they would start cutting prices to compete for customers, driving the price down.
...snip

If you are worried about players w/LLW selling their LL spells then make those spell intuitive like a (psi) Mystic's spells. Since they are gained in the same way...though meditation with the universe. Thus, making them impossible to sell.

Isn't the ley line walker the most common magical OCC on the planet? I think Shifters also ranked #4 or something, after Mystics and Warlocks. Think this was in the original FoM somewhere but can't find it in the revised...

In the RMB the LLW was just a plain old wizard type of magic user with a few more LL abilities. Things changed in RUE so the LLW is now a Specialist in LL magic that can cast common magic spells. Which made the everything said about the RMB LLW suspect. So your complaint about discrepancy between what was said about the RMB LLW and the abilities of the RUE LLW is sounding as if you are paying attention to things as a whole.

[glitterboy2098]

Keep in mind that spending 48 hours meditating on a Ley Line is not a trivial task. Ley Lines attract all manner of supernatural creatures and demons which view the LLW as "crunchy, but tasty with ketchup." If the GM takes a strict interpretation and requires the LLW to spend 48 hours uninterrupted, then the task may very well be impossible without a considerable support team.

If attempted in one of the magic cities, the safety factor goes way up but at the risk of many more mundane interruptions.

"Hey, Bob just started his two day meditation. I figure sometime tomorrow afternoon I'm gonna push him over so he has to start again."

not to mention things like not sleeping, or going without food.

[ShadowLogan]

With such easy access to high level spells for low level characters... do RUE p 190's "Purchasing Magic" guidelines really make sense?

Yes this still do. Remember that #8's Ley Line Communing has restrictions in place that allow this to make sense.

Restrictions listed in #8 (1st Printing of RUE) include only being done "...by communing with the ley line. This can occur upon reaching a new mystic plateau (new level of experience)." You only get to select one spell to. At least that's my interpretation of the rules, you only can do it once per level.

This allows for the purchasing magic guidelines to make sense as you don't have to wait until next level (for a Ley Line Walker) and have no real limiter on how often it can be purchased (availability and paying for it still remain).

[drewkitty ~..~]

At least that's my interpretation of the rules, you only can do it once per level.

Probably a better way to say it is that they can meditate to gain the LL spell once for every level gained after L1, if they have not already learned a LL spell from an elder LLW.

Which is a bit different then what 'once per level' means. With 'once per level' if the char does not get a chance to meditate for a level or find an elder LLW to teach a LL spell then the char is SoL for gaining that possible spell.
----------------
Then, if you factor in that humans are selfish, you get that LLW do not, much like temporal wizards, let their "special spells" outside their clique.

[taalismn]

If attempted in one of the magic cities, the safety factor goes way up but at the risk of many more mundane interruptions.

"Hey, Bob just started his two day meditation. I figure sometime tomorrow afternoon I'm gonna push him over so he has to start again."

One of the reasons why the truly successful mages don't have cellphones.

[dreicunan]

Keep in mind that spending 48 hours meditating on a Ley Line is not a trivial task. Ley Lines attract all manner of supernatural creatures and demons which view the LLW as "crunchy, but tasty with ketchup." If the GM takes a strict interpretation and requires the LLW to spend 48 hours uninterrupted, then the task may very well be impossible without a considerable support team.

If attempted in one of the magic cities, the safety factor goes way up but at the risk of many more mundane interruptions.

"Hey, Bob just started his two day meditation. I figure sometime tomorrow afternoon I'm gonna push him over so he has to start again."

not to mention things like not sleeping, or going without food.

Isn't meditation supposed to count as rest the same as sleep?

Isn't there a spell (sustain comes to mind) that would let you ignore the issues of eating and drinking?

[The Beast]

Meditation isn't the same as sleeping. If it were mages and psychics would gain PPE/ISP back at the same rate when sleeping as they would meditating. As for eating and drinking, Native Americans were known to go up to four days fasting for their vision quests. While the Sustain spell would be useful, it isn't necessary. The meditating mage would need to have someone else cast it though. Otherwise they'd be interrupting their own selves.

[eliakon]

Keep in mind that spending 48 hours meditating on a Ley Line is not a trivial task. Ley Lines attract all manner of supernatural creatures and demons which view the LLW as "crunchy, but tasty with ketchup." If the GM takes a strict interpretation and requires the LLW to spend 48 hours uninterrupted, then the task may very well be impossible without a considerable support team.

If attempted in one of the magic cities, the safety factor goes way up but at the risk of many more mundane interruptions.

"Hey, Bob just started his two day meditation. I figure sometime tomorrow afternoon I'm gonna push him over so he has to start again."

not to mention things like not sleeping, or going without food.

Isn't meditation supposed to count as rest the same as sleep?

Isn't there a spell (sustain comes to mind) that would let you ignore the issues of eating and drinking?

1)No. Neither the psionic power nor the skill as found in either Rifts China 2 or Mystic China allow it to do so. In fact the skills explicitly state that it is not a substitute for sleep.

2) yes, if you have said spell.

But yes, it is possible to perform this task...
If you have the right spells and/or skills; and the right guards and/or wards; and nothing goes wrong (ley line events will disrupt the meditation for instance...); and have 48 hours to spend on a ley line; and a number of other factors.
It isn't impossible, but it isn't a trivially easy task either (unless the GM wants it to be)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Meditation isn't the same as sleeping.

Well, we agree there. It's better than sleeping.

If it were mages and psychics would gain PPE/ISP back at the same rate when sleeping as they would meditating.

Ummm.. no. Just because one thing works a certain way (Meditation counts as sleeping) does not mean the reverse is true (Sleeping counts as meditation).

Just so we're clear:

Meditation is a skill known and practiced by all practitioners of magic. It is used to focus one's concentration and to relax and open oneself to mystic forces. A meditative state will restore expended P.P.E. at a rate of 10 per hour (or as indicated by the specific O.C.C.) and every hour of meditation is equal to one hour of relaxing, restorative sleep. Note that meditation cannot give the mage more P.P.E. than the character normally possesses. That's his Permanent P.P.E. Base.

Bolded & Italicized for emphasis.

Also, the previous paragraph ("Recovery of P.P.E.") clearly calls out that sleep doesn't restore as much as meditation (5 per hour or as stated by the OCC).

So, meditation is just all-around better.

edit: Also, under Ley Line Walker specifically:

P.P.E. Recovery: For the Ley Line Walker, spent P.P.E. recovers at a rate of 7 points per hour of sleep or rest. Meditation restores P.P.E. at 15 per hour of meditation and is equal to one hour of sleep for this character when it comes to recovery from fatigue and physical rest.

On the topic of "Wow these super high level spells are easily available to classes" - check out Temporal Wizard sometime. Even a level 1 Temporal Wiz gets 4 spell of h is choice (ANY level). And can select a new spell (ANY LEVEL) every time he levels up. In addition to getting a new Temporal spell at each level up as well.

Further Edit: Because i was looking to see how meditation was worded for Psychics - if it was the same or different - i noticed that (at least in the first Printing) the Mind Melter cannot regain ISP. All the other psychic classes have ISP recover rates listed... and Mind Melter does not. (And checking the old RMB.. they did have it there). Someone screwed up. =P

[Shark_Force]

Further Edit: Because i was looking to see how meditation was worded for Psychics - if it was the same or different - i noticed that (at least in the first Printing) the Mind Melter cannot regain ISP. All the other psychic classes have ISP recover rates listed... and Mind Melter does not. (And checking the old RMB.. they did have it there). Someone screwed up. =P

there's a default rate for meditation (and sleep) in the psionic combat rules way at the back of the book. page 366, almost at the very bottom. no, i have no idea why it's in the psionic combat rules as opposed to any of the more rational places to check (like the meditation power that is iirc printed three times, once per minor category, in the psionic power descriptions for example). i just know this has come up before, and it is there.

that said, i'm pretty sure that rate was not intended for mind melters, as it is quite low and frankly the rule even hints at what rate the mind melter probably should recover at. but in any event, at least there is a listed rate in the rules. do with it what you will.

on the other hand, to my knowledge this oversight has not been corrected in any of the more recent printings of RUE.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Just so we're clear:

Meditation is a skill known and practiced by all practitioners of magic. It is used to focus one's concentration and to relax and open oneself to mystic forces. A meditative state will restore expended P.P.E. at a rate of 10 per hour (or as indicated by the specific O.C.C.) and every hour of meditation is equal to one hour of relaxing, restorative sleep. Note that meditation cannot give the mage more P.P.E. than the character normally possesses. That's his Permanent P.P.E. Base.

Bolded & Italicized for emphasis.

Also, the previous paragraph ("Recovery of P.P.E.") clearly calls out that sleep doesn't restore as much as meditation (5 per hour or as stated by the OCC).

So, meditation is just all-around better.

edit: Also, under Ley Line Walker specifically:

P.P.E. Recovery: For the Ley Line Walker, spent P.P.E. recovers at a rate of 7 points per hour of sleep or rest. Meditation restores P.P.E. at 15 per hour of meditation and is equal to one hour of sleep for this character when it comes to recovery from fatigue and physical rest.

On the topic of "Wow these super high level spells are easily available to classes" - check out Temporal Wizard sometime. Even a level 1 Temporal Wiz gets 4 spell of h is choice (ANY level). And can select a new spell (ANY LEVEL) every time he levels up. In addition to getting a new Temporal spell at each level up as well.

Further Edit: Because i was looking to see how meditation was worded for Psychics - if it was the same or different - i noticed that (at least in the first Printing) the Mind Melter cannot regain ISP. All the other psychic classes have ISP recover rates listed... and Mind Melter does not. (And checking the old RMB.. they did have it there). Someone screwed up. =P

I will mention that the numbers for within the quoted texts for PPE recovery via Meditation are the 'off Ley Line' numbers.

---------------
@ SF
The rational was to put all the basic Psychic related rules (that are not directly assosiated with PCCs) together. Now why the Perception and Horror Factor rules are under psychic combat is the question that struck me, because they are totally out of place in them.

Why didn't they stick the Psychic combat section with the psi powers? Don't know. They had the Psi gen. rules right before the Psi powers (like the magic gen. rules before the spells) in the RMB. Maybe they thought they were a part of the 'char creation rules'. *shrugs*

[Jorick]

Rare can also be a function of demand. Rare spells are generally expensive spells to cast. Expensive spells to cast are far more difficult, situationally/logistically, than for instance meditating for 48 hours on a ley line as described in comments above.

The "easiest" way to go about them is to kill a bunch of people in exactly the right place and time. The logistics of that are obviously complicated. If your GM is nice enough to give you easy access to batteries, followers, pyramids and/or a generous Dragon-God then whether or not something is described in the book as being "rare" is moot.

Your adventurer probably wants to go adventuring and wants spells that help with that. Even classes that start with prohibitively expensive spells will most likely sit on them for many levels without use, unless the GM is nice and/or creative enough to make their use a significant part of the story (maybe like "you have 48 hours to collect enough of X to open/close the rift in order to save the village" or something).

Point being: the great majority of spell casters would never use the expensive spells, even if the scrolls for them were filling landfills. The "rare" designation can be further thought of as a guideline for the GM (these spells are not filling landfills, and most of the people who do know them like being the few people who know them, for good or ill).

[Mack]

One thing we don’t have concrete info on is exactly what it takes to teach a spell. Such as: does the instructor have to cast it several times for the student to observe? Likewise, does the student need to successfully cast the spell for the lesson to be complete?

Teaching a high PPE spell could be a massive undertaking in it’s own right.

[Shark_Force]

Rare can also be a function of demand. Rare spells are generally expensive spells to cast. Expensive spells to cast are far more difficult, situationally/logistically, than for instance meditating for 48 hours on a ley line as described in comments above.

The "easiest" way to go about them is to kill a bunch of people in exactly the right place and time. The logistics of that are obviously complicated. If your GM is nice enough to give you easy access to batteries, followers, pyramids and/or a generous Dragon-God then whether or not something is described in the book as being "rare" is moot.

Your adventurer probably wants to go adventuring and wants spells that help with that. Even classes that start with prohibitively expensive spells will most likely sit on them for many levels without use, unless the GM is nice and/or creative enough to make their use a significant part of the story (maybe like "you have 48 hours to collect enough of X to open/close the rift in order to save the village" or something).

Point being: the great majority of spell casters would never use the expensive spells, even if the scrolls for them were filling landfills. The "rare" designation can be further thought of as a guideline for the GM (these spells are not filling landfills, and most of the people who do know them like being the few people who know them, for good or ill).

eh, you'd be surprised. high PPE costs look intimidating at first, but a bit of time on a regular ley line even during non-peak hours can give you a lot of PPE to work with. especially if you happen to be a level 2 shifter who picked the very nice high level spell energy sphere

(seriously, when it comes to getting freebie high level spells, ley line walkers have it hard compared to shifters, i'm surprised the OP isn't complaining more about them instead... perhaps he hasn't reviewed the list of spells shifters can freely choose from starting at level 2. dimensional teleport, superior protection circle, rift teleport, *any* summoning spell apart from weather, though i'm sure typical DMs will rule that "any" doesn't include spells of legend or spells outside of standard invocation magic)

[dragonfett]

I just realized he's talking about how Ley Line Rifters (which are a specialized sub-class of the LLW and thereby no where near as common) gain new spells when they level up (which is limited to one spell choice each from two lists).

Given they have to meditate to learn those spells, I'd say they couldn't teach it.

[Mack]

I just realized he's talking about how Ley Line Rifters (which are a specialized sub-class of the LLW and thereby no where near as common) gain new spells when they level up (which is limited to one spell choice each from two lists).

A normal LLW can also do the "48-hr meditate on a LL" approach.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I just realized he's talking about how Ley Line Rifters (which are a specialized sub-class of the LLW and thereby no where near as common) gain new spells when they level up (which is limited to one spell choice each from two lists).

As Mack pointed out, LLWs can ALSO meditate upon gaining a new Level to learn a spell. The list is more restrictive than the LLR, but still packs a number of high level spells available.

Given they have to meditate to learn those spells, I'd say they couldn't teach it.

Uhhh.. why? Theyre an invocation spellcaster, not a Mystic Or Warlock. Theres no stated restrictions on teaching spells based on how you learn them.

Rare can also be a function of demand. Rare spells are generally expensive spells to cast. Expensive spells to cast are far more difficult, situationally/logistically, than for instance meditating for 48 hours on a ley line as described in comments above.

The "easiest" way to go about them is to kill a bunch of people in exactly the right place and time. The logistics of that are obviously complicated. If your GM is nice enough to give you easy access to batteries, followers, pyramids and/or a generous Dragon-God then whether or not something is described in the book as being "rare" is moot.

Your adventurer probably wants to go adventuring and wants spells that help with that. Even classes that start with prohibitively expensive spells will most likely sit on them for many levels without use, unless the GM is nice and/or creative enough to make their use a significant part of the story (maybe like "you have 48 hours to collect enough of X to open/close the rift in order to save the village" or something).

Point being: the great majority of spell casters would never use the expensive spells, even if the scrolls for them were filling landfills. The "rare" designation can be further thought of as a guideline for the GM (these spells are not filling landfills, and most of the people who do know them like being the few people who know them, for good or ill).

eh, you'd be surprised. high PPE costs look intimidating at first, but a bit of time on a regular ley line even during non-peak hours can give you a lot of PPE to work with. especially if you happen to be a level 2 shifter who picked the very nice high level spell energy sphere

(seriously, when it comes to getting freebie high level spells, ley line walkers have it hard compared to shifters, i'm surprised the OP isn't complaining more about them instead... perhaps he hasn't reviewed the list of spells shifters can freely choose from starting at level 2. dimensional teleport, superior protection circle, rift teleport, *any* summoning spell apart from weather, though i'm sure typical DMs will rule that "any" doesn't include spells of legend or spells outside of standard invocation magic)

Energy Sphere is the gift that keeps on giving. Go to a ley line, fill up on PPE (remember, you can hold 3x your base (or, your base 3 times - so if you normally have 200, you can hold 600, for minutes equal to your PE attribute). Cast Energy Sphere. Then fill up on PPE again, and recast Energy Sphere, using all the PPE in your existing Energy Sphere.

Repeat as much as desired.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Note that the hold x3 the mage's PPE base is a disputed in total amount. As in how that Total is calculated.
Some people's opinions it is the char's natural/base PPE is a part of the held amount. And thus comes to what Col. T. (above) the total of 600 PPE. The math being B+(Bx2)=Bx3.
While other people's opinions is the the held amount is what is gathered from a LL or LLN. As such, using the 200 PPE base in the Col.T's example, the x3 is the PPE gathered from the LL/LLN. Ending up with a total of 800 PPE. The math being B+(Bx3)=Bx4.

The text is not specific enough to determine which is canonly correct.

Here are two questions you would want to answer to form your own opinion on this.
Mages have expanded their base PPE through years of practice and development. Is this PPE held though intentional effort or is this just now their natural level of PPE?
Is the text talking about what is the mage's natural base & what is gathers and intentionally held or what is gathered & intentionally held?

My own opinion is that the text is talking about 'what is gathered & intentionally held' on top of what is in the char's base PPE.

[Shark_Force]

Energy Sphere is the gift that keeps on giving. Go to a ley line, fill up on PPE (remember, you can hold 3x your base (or, your base 3 times - so if you normally have 200, you can hold 600, for minutes equal to your PE attribute). Cast Energy Sphere. Then fill up on PPE again, and recast Energy Sphere, using all the PPE in your existing Energy Sphere.

Repeat as much as desired.

well, unless you have infinite shoulders, there is a limit to how much PPE you can stockpile based on your level (you can give it to someone else, but if you do that you can't use the PPE any more; it clearly states that only the person you give it to can use it). but still, it is indeed quite a large amount.

[Eagle]

Rare can also be a function of demand. Rare spells are generally expensive spells to cast. Expensive spells to cast are far more difficult, situationally/logistically, than for instance meditating for 48 hours on a ley line as described in comments above.

The "easiest" way to go about them is to kill a bunch of people in exactly the right place and time. The logistics of that are obviously complicated. If your GM is nice enough to give you easy access to batteries, followers, pyramids and/or a generous Dragon-God then whether or not something is described in the book as being "rare" is moot.

Your adventurer probably wants to go adventuring and wants spells that help with that. Even classes that start with prohibitively expensive spells will most likely sit on them for many levels without use, unless the GM is nice and/or creative enough to make their use a significant part of the story (maybe like "you have 48 hours to collect enough of X to open/close the rift in order to save the village" or something).

Point being: the great majority of spell casters would never use the expensive spells, even if the scrolls for them were filling landfills. The "rare" designation can be further thought of as a guideline for the GM (these spells are not filling landfills, and most of the people who do know them like being the few people who know them, for good or ill).

I think this is a great point. How many magic users really want to go teleporting to other worlds? Sure, PCs probably do, but your average NPC wizard? I doubt it.

Let's say I'm Joe the Linewalker. I'm 4th level, I grew up in a village in Ohio. Most of my time is spent helping people in my village (curing sick people, etc), fighting the occasional wandering monster who threatens the village, listening for gossip along the ley lines, things like that. I have an MD rifle and some body armor, because Rifts Earth is a dangerous place. But I don't really go out and adventure. If I have my sights set on high level magic, I'm probably looking for something that hides my village from the Coalition. Dimensional Portals? Not interested. I don't have a gang of heavily armed PCs to watch my back on some unexplored world.

[Axelmania]

Guys if these spells aren't in high demand, wouldn't that also drive the price down? High price implies high demand and scarce production. If every Shifter can teach DP and few people want to learn it, why would so much money be charged for it?

Lots of level 1 shifters are going to want to earn 500K. Compare that to the starting wealth, money you can make as a merc, etc.

Which presumes everyone who knows a spell is willing to sell it for money.

No, not 'everyone', but enough people would be (if poor enough, desperate enough) for it to have an economic effect if more people know it.

A spell known by every 1st level shifter is simply going to be more available than a spell known by some 15th level shifters or those who learned from them or other casters who somehow obtained it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

"Poor and desperate" are not two words that discribe shifters. They have lots of trivially easier ways to make money than become a teacher.

[Axelmania]

Just how easy do you think it is for a Shifter to earn 500,000 credits? Look at their starting wealth. Look at the wealth of higher level NPCs.

Desperate certainly describes many shifters. That's why some end up making pacts or becoming the pawns of demons.

Some might even teach the spell for the lulz because they adore the idea of more Rifts being opened and the world descending into chaos by entities/demons/threats entering it from other dimensions.

Basically, making a spell you need to be 15th level to learn on your own into a 1st level spell obviously increases availability by a very large margin. With cost guidelines written for the former, changing to the latter situation should obviously drive cost down.

[Jorick]

Most very expensive things have low demand and high cost. "Priceless" works of art, airplanes, etc. An airplane (or helicopter maybe) is very useful. Lots of people would like their own, but they don't really need it, and even when lots of rich people get one, though cost goes down, it doesn't go that far down. And if it did become a trivial cost, there are many other factors that go into not really wanting to deal with owning one.

There are lots of variables that go in to any cost. It's at least as easy to imagine the problems as it is to imagine all the great things one would use the spell for.

Sticking with the trans-dimensional stuff: it's inherently dangerous--you can die while doing it simply by doing it, or you can get incredibly lost, or you can release the demons, or be possessed by one. In the "domain of man" people want to kill you for knowing it. In magic communities, you can just get a ride somewhere (if you're the type that does such things), or people will know you're doing it, find you, and kill you/enslave you.

Also, I really feel like we have to separate what player characters know from what "people" know. "Rare" is setting flavor. Master psionics are "rare" relatively, despite the fact that your entire group can be very powerful master psis from the get go. You can be a group of Atlanteans fighting Splugorth, and everyone you know, ally and enemy, can be equipped to jump realities at a moment's notice at first level, but most people in those realities think you're a god.

The flavor suggests that becoming a proficient magic wielder is a long hard process. Access to such education is itself rare, even apparently in magic communities, and the magic communities on Earth, according to the flavor, are fairly insular and unconnected, as populations, to other worlds and to each other. This despite the presence of dragons, who clearly have no interest in teaching the puny mortals, for good or ill -- and perhaps even because of (not despite) the presence of Atlanteans, who caution against everything (because they already destroyed the world once when everyone knew how to do it). People just don't believe it's a good idea to teach this stuff (and it really isn't).

Money is generally not why shifters get into shifting. Power, yes. And they tend to get that power without relying on some terrestrial exchange (I suppose its worth mentioning that, if we're talking about value, the value of a credit, or any currency on Rifts Earth, is suspect). You spend all this time learning how to speak to gods, you're gonna speak to a god (good luck).

Furthermore, I think we can shelve shifters as inherently rare, at least for "cultural" reasons and lack of survivability/independence.

LLWs really have a lot of other things to worry about. Other worlds are where bad things come from. Some people are the type to adventure to anywhere (like early expeditions to the poles) by any means necessary. That does happen, and some may eschew Lazlo's land journeys through the jungle in favor of seeing what's on the other side of the big blue circle. But, aside from the glory and thrill of adventure, what are you gonna do there? And other rare spells: I was gonna try to write examples, but really "power armor is easier" and "making a few friends" covers pretty much all bases.

Some people are Voldemort (and anyone could be, if they put the effort in), but most people just wanna make some tea with their mind.

[eliakon]

Most very expensive things have low demand and high cost. "Priceless" works of art, airplanes, etc. An airplane (or helicopter maybe) is very useful. Lots of people would like their own, but they don't really need it, and even when lots of rich people get one, though cost goes down, it doesn't go that far down. And if it did become a trivial cost, there are many other factors that go into not really wanting to deal with owning one.

There are lots of variables that go in to any cost. It's at least as easy to imagine the problems as it is to imagine all the great things one would use the spell for.

Sticking with the trans-dimensional stuff: it's inherently dangerous--you can die while doing it simply by doing it, or you can get incredibly lost, or you can release the demons, or be possessed by one. In the "domain of man" people want to kill you for knowing it. In magic communities, you can just get a ride somewhere (if you're the type that does such things), or people will know you're doing it, find you, and kill you/enslave you.

Also, I really feel like we have to separate what player characters know from what "people" know. "Rare" is setting flavor. Master psionics are "rare" relatively, despite the fact that your entire group can be very powerful master psis from the get go. You can be a group of Atlanteans fighting Splugorth, and everyone you know, ally and enemy, can be equipped to jump realities at a moment's notice at first level, but most people in those realities think you're a god.

The flavor suggests that becoming a proficient magic wielder is a long hard process. Access to such education is itself rare, even apparently in magic communities, and the magic communities on Earth, according to the flavor, are fairly insular and unconnected, as populations, to other worlds and to each other. This despite the presence of dragons, who clearly have no interest in teaching the puny mortals, for good or ill -- and perhaps even because of (not despite) the presence of Atlanteans, who caution against everything (because they already destroyed the world once when everyone knew how to do it). People just don't believe it's a good idea to teach this stuff (and it really isn't).

Money is generally not why shifters get into shifting. Power, yes. And they tend to get that power without relying on some terrestrial exchange (I suppose its worth mentioning that, if we're talking about value, the value of a credit, or any currency on Rifts Earth, is suspect). You spend all this time learning how to speak to gods, you're gonna speak to a god (good luck).

Furthermore, I think we can shelve shifters as inherently rare, at least for "cultural" reasons and lack of survivability/independence.

LLWs really have a lot of other things to worry about. Other worlds are where bad things come from. Some people are the type to adventure to anywhere (like early expeditions to the poles) by any means necessary. That does happen, and some may eschew Lazlo's land journeys through the jungle in favor of seeing what's on the other side of the big blue circle. But, aside from the glory and thrill of adventure, what are you gonna do there? And other rare spells: I was gonna try to write examples, but really "power armor is easier" and "making a few friends" covers pretty much all bases.

Some people are Voldemort (and anyone could be, if they put the effort in), but most people just wanna make some tea with their mind.

I am reminded of the Anime shows Naruto and Nanoha.
In Naruto the main characters are all powerful ninja from the Hidden Villages. All their friends are ninjas, their enemies are all ninjas. They face ninja problems and the supernatural on a daily basis...
...but the majority of the people even in their villages? Are cooks, and own restaurants and stuff. Even powerful Ninja often retire to lead lives of leisure and do things like run a flower shop or gambling den when they are no longer up to being front liners anymore. And the people in the wider world outside the villages are even less likely to know the various arts and abilities... Yeah sure you can find all sorts of people running around with super high level Ninjitsu training, and those that have a desire for such, and the ability for such will have them. But most of the generic ninja? Even the ones who are theoretically far more experienced? They just don't have a need for such exotic and specialized abilities and thus have never spent the time and effort to learn how to do them, instead they have learned how to do those things that they do have a use for.

Nanoha has wide spread use of magic through out its society. It is the core of their civilization and intergraded with their technology at every level. And a huge percentage of their adult population are mages...
...but they are not all high level battle mages. Most of them are fairly basic mages who have learned magic for industry, or for entertainment. They might be a "D" rank medical mage, or a "C" rank systems processing support mage. That's not very interesting to watch though. So the Anime and Manga are about the "S" rank Battle mages, and often the elites of that elite group. Virtually every one of the main characters knows stuff like bind spells or homing bullets even as a starter...
...even though the 'regular' mages all comment about how rare those spells are and how advanced they are.

Same thing here. The average mage isn't going to go for the rare, elite spells... they simply don't need them or have a use for them and frankly... most of them can't even use them even if they could. The small sub group that can use them, and does want them though? Yeah, they are likely to have access to them. But that doesn't mean that they will be easy to get for everyone.
Sure, a Shifter can learn an advanced spell. Great. Why is it going to teach you that spell though? What do they get out of it?
Sure that Ley Line Walker or Ley Line Rifter, or Temporal Wizard or what ever might have a really neat spell or six. But again... so what? That doesn't mean that they are going to go around teaching them to all and sundry just because they have them.
If that were the case then every mage should start with all level 1-4 spells... since if spell trading was that common all the ley line walkers would have traded their starting spells around enough to have everyone start with them all...
But that doesn't happen. Because that isn't how mages work. A few mages might be altruistic socialists who want to spread magic far and wide so that everyone has every spell. But in general that is not a universal mentality and thus will not be a universal behavior. The normal behavior of humans is the quid pro quo. There are likely to be some exceptions. For example in places with a severe vampire problem I can see mages sharing various anti-vampire spells freely as a mutual self defense strategy as it makes any individual mage less of a target if getting rid of one mage wont eliminate the knowledge. But in general? You want my spell then what are you offering me for it?

[drewkitty ~..~]

*nods at the description of the Hidden leaf Village social structure.*
*gives a nod/meh to the Nanoha cause while it sounds right, I've only seen the 1st series.*

Mages are greedy and not likely to give up their Shtik / way of living / the spells that make them valuable... just to make a quick buck. Which is one of the reasons the base value of scrolls & paying to be taught a spell are so high. Who is willing to give up the things/tools that make themselves valuable?

It would be like the USA selling N. Korea the plans to their best ICBM for a cash payout of a few trillion dollars. While in the short term it might farm up cash, but in the long term it is detrimental to the USA.

footnote:
from Yiddish shtik piece, from Middle High German stücke. Word Origin and History for shtick. n. also schtick, 1959, from Yiddish shtik "an act, gimmick," literally "a piece, slice," from Middle High German stücke "piece, play," from Old High German stucki (see stock (n.1)).

[Axelmania]

However likely mages are to give up their knowledge, more mages knowing the spell increases the availability and would increase competition over customers. In RMB, the shifters who know this spell either learned it by getting to level 15, or were taught it in exchange for money or services (latter including a pact with a master). It would make sense that they would be very hesitant to teach this to others, such as a 1st level Shifter student...

But now, all 1st level Shifter students are being taught this spell. We inherently know the spell is already being more freely shared by this fact. To explain why ONLY 1st-level Shifters benefit from this higher availability needs to be explained, especially since you not only have proof-of-spread but more spreaders (the desperate poor 1st levelers) to account for.

Compare this to other 15th level spells which aren't known by every 1st level Shifter out there. These would have fewer potential teachers and should be both rarer and more expensive due to that rarity.

I'm not arguing that Shifters will go around trading DP for Blinding Flash, this isn't about freebies, it's acknowledging increased supply = decreased scarcity = competing costs = decreased costs. IE if Create Bread and Milk was a starting spell for every ley line walker, you would expect the price of bread and milk to go down. Both learning the spell and of the products themselves.

People who go around killing non-Shifters who know Dimensional Portal (and Shifters who teach to non-Shifters) could help explain this. They could think, for example, that only Shifters have the ability to use this spell responsibly, due to their capability of detecting (Sense Evil, Sense Magic) and controlling (Compulsion, Constrain Being, Exorcism, Repel Animals, Trance, Turn Dead) or communicating with (Calling, Tonges) potential threats which could enter the world.

There's no need at all for Dimensional Portal to be a start spell now that the Shifter has so many other new options for getting around, this should be something rarer the only some of them get via pacts, levelling up or acquired wealth/teachers. But since it's now the canon, we need some kind of explanation for how this spell is now something like 50x more available yet hasn't gone down in price. Shifters being unwilling to teach the spell except to other Shifters under threat of death from a mysterious Shifter Cabal could help explain that.

It might well be that Shifters are always trying to kill other shifters to monopolize control of Dimensional Portals, the only exception being their own pupils, so long as their pupils work in the interests of their masters. High level shifters might kill low level shifters all the time, especially those who avoid flying under the radar by trying to sell their spells to other mages.

[Jorick]

However likely mages are to give up their knowledge, more mages knowing the spell increases the availability and would increase competition over customers. In RMB, the shifters who know this spell either learned it by getting to level 15, or were taught it in exchange for money or services (latter including a pact with a master). It would make sense that they would be very hesitant to teach this to others, such as a 1st level Shifter student...

But now, all 1st level Shifter students are being taught this spell. We inherently know the spell is already being more freely shared by this fact. To explain why ONLY 1st-level Shifters benefit from this higher availability needs to be explained, especially since you not only have proof-of-spread but more spreaders (the desperate poor 1st levelers) to account for.

Compare this to other 15th level spells which aren't known by every 1st level Shifter out there. These would have fewer potential teachers and should be both rarer and more expensive due to that rarity.

I'm not arguing that Shifters will go around trading DP for Blinding Flash, this isn't about freebies, it's acknowledging increased supply = decreased scarcity = competing costs = decreased costs. IE if Create Bread and Milk was a starting spell for every ley line walker, you would expect the price of bread and milk to go down. Both learning the spell and of the products themselves.

People who go around killing non-Shifters who know Dimensional Portal (and Shifters who teach to non-Shifters) could help explain this. They could think, for example, that only Shifters have the ability to use this spell responsibly, due to their capability of detecting (Sense Evil, Sense Magic) and controlling (Compulsion, Constrain Being, Exorcism, Repel Animals, Trance, Turn Dead) or communicating with (Calling, Tonges) potential threats which could enter the world.

There's no need at all for Dimensional Portal to be a start spell now that the Shifter has so many other new options for getting around, this should be something rarer the only some of them get via pacts, levelling up or acquired wealth/teachers. But since it's now the canon, we need some kind of explanation for how this spell is now something like 50x more available yet hasn't gone down in price. Shifters being unwilling to teach the spell except to other Shifters under threat of death from a mysterious Shifter Cabal could help explain that.

It might well be that Shifters are always trying to kill other shifters to monopolize control of Dimensional Portals, the only exception being their own pupils, so long as their pupils work in the interests of their masters. High level shifters might kill low level shifters all the time, especially those who avoid flying under the radar by trying to sell their spells to other mages.

You're coming up with "RP reasons" that you don't need to come up with. They could be reasons, both for and against pricing up or down, but the text actually has lots of reasons already there for you. You're focusing on one set of facts, and forcing an initial RP reason (desperate poor 1st level shifter) that you created yourself. Indeed, they start with few credits, but they already solved that problem by going to shifter school. They dont need money. They have demons, which is the reason they went to shifter school. A first lvl shifter does have access to any 15th level spell. They just have to make the pact.

Price in general is problematic in Rifts. I'm not talking about "rift economics" and possible problems with the way the credit economy is represented. I'm talking about the explicit issue that credits in this world only work in limited environments. Understanding this means understanding that the prices as listed are just a way to measure comparative value. A high level spell is about as precious in the average market as something else (find me some piece of technology that costs about the same) in that hypothetical average market.

In Merctown, comparing such two things makes lots of sense. In a coalition city (Chi-town) it doesn't. And in a cabal of shifters (the Brass City), and their demons, and whatever else tags along with cabals of shifters, it doesn't.

If there's no reason for D Portal to be a starting spell because "the Shifter has so many other new options for getting around" then there's no reason for them to work for it either. They have it because what they do is inherently trans-dimensional. I don't see a problem with this at all.

In Rifts, shifters are inherently suspicious (if not kill on sight). They're only good to the extent that player characters make them so. They're typically villains, not heroes, and they are seen as such even in magic friendly communities. As for purchasing the spell, shifter don't have to do it now ever, right? Their effect on the market is 0, without any variables. There's more supply, but there's also less demand. Whatever value they get from near useless credits (certainly useless in the places D Portal can take them to, or useless for the things that come out of the portal), they can get far more from using the spell themselves, and worrying about doing that, rather than selling.

If they do feel like selling, they have simple incentive to make it expensive. Why does someone want to buy d-portal? What are they gonna do on the other side? Who wants to support whatever they're gonna do on the other side (and they'll need support)? It is a wildly dangerous spell. It is the "only way a greater supernatural being can enter into our dimension." Who wants to give anyone that for anything? The person buying it has money or power (I dont care what the gamers say, 1000 PPE is a truckload...many truckloads...of dead people). You want to take as much of that as you can (especially if you're the kind of person who has become a shifter).

[Killer Cyborg]

So... how many Shifters are there in North America to begin with?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

So... how many Shifters are there in North America to begin with?

Im curious, myself.

Maybe over the next day or two, ill go through my notes on the population and see if i can rough out an estimate.

Im going to guess its the middling to low tens of thousands. Without concrete info on Lazlo, though, its hard to be definitive.

[Shark_Force]

lazlo probably doesn't have tons. we can't get a concrete number of course, but shifters and lazlo don't exactly have similar reputations

[Eagle]

Costs in Rifts are probably highly variable. A spell like Dimensional Portal could be incredibly expensive, or it could be almost free. Same with recharging e-clips, getting MDC armor, or any other kind of thing.

I'd suggest that the best way to look at it is that the costs listed in the book are at the high end. This is how much you'll pay if you're just a regular adventurer with more money than common sense, who wants an item or a spell, and you have no idea of any ways to get it cheaper. If you're fresh off the boat as a 1st level adventurer, and you want to buy a Dimensional Portal spell? A million credits. Once you're actually higher level and you know the difference between your ass and a hole in the ground, you'll realize you could have got it much cheaper and much easier. But you didn't know any better back then.

In my very first RPG campaign ever (2nd ed D&D), I tried to hire an assassin to murder another PC (we were playing an evil group). I wandered around town asking where the assassin's guild was. When I finally found them (the GM was being nice to the new player), I discovered that I didn't have near enough money to hire an actual high-level assassin. What I didn't know is that I probably could have hired a group of thugs at any tavern for just a few gold, and had them jump him. I also didn't know that my character was way stronger than him and I could have just done it myself (I had a percentile strength fighter). But I didn't know how magic worked and I was terrified of that 3rd level priest!

People who are in the right place at the right time, with the right abilities and the right information, can become fantastically wealthy in Rifts without really risking much. The way to control that as a GM is that none of the people on Rifts Earth get to read the sourcebooks. Being in the right place at the right time is all dependent on the GM being cooperative. A psi-ghost can walk right into a warehouse through the wall, and walk right out with powerful military gear. But it's the GM's decision as to how easy it is to find a buyer for all that gear, or whether you can find the warehouse at all.

You wanna play a shifter who makes tons of cash by selling the Dimensional Portal spell? It's the GM's decision as to whether you ever get approached by a potential buyer.

[Axelmania]

Will we be discarding the 4th-most-common aspect of Shifters from original FoM since it's no longer in Revised FoM?

If so then our population estimates I guess are based upon mages listed in city populations explicitly to be Shifters?

Jorick there is a stark contrast between a 15th level spell all Shifters have and 15th level spells which SOME shifters who make pacts (an unknown %) MIGHT choose, in terms of the total number of people in North America who will know the spell.

Even if we figure Shifters don't want to risk spending days teaching it, assuming the % of Shifters who will know Create Scroll remains constant (although odds are it will go up, since now Shifters have more earning power to purchase the teaching of it) this also means many more Scroll of Dimensional Portal we should expect to be floating around too.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

lazlo probably doesn't have tons. we can't get a concrete number of course, but shifters and lazlo don't exactly have similar reputations

Eh, on my tablet so i dont want to spend an eternity typing, but Shifters can be any alignment just like anyone else; ironically, most of the ones that are actually stated out are Selfish or Good alignments.

From a quick look through my notes, Shifters arent often called our specifically in most OCC breakdowns for most kingdoms / cities. They fall in the oft-used “other spellcasters” category.

Back of the napkin math, though, if we assume (what i think is rather low) that 5% of the “other spellcasters” are Shifters (leaving room for 19 other types od spellcasters that arent TempWiz, LLW, Mystic, warlocks, or TW, which are almost aleays called out individually)...

Id say my original estimate is pretty close. If Lazlos population breakdown is anything like Tolkeens (the only other large magic kingdom we have info on, were looking at roughly 25,000 - 30,000 Shifters in NA. That seems like a lot, until you realize there more Mystics than that in just -TWO- of the Colorado Baronies, much less the rest of NA.... and that Tolkeen prior to the war had about five times that many LLWs, TWs, and Warlocks (each).

[Shark_Force]

lazlo probably doesn't have tons. we can't get a concrete number of course, but shifters and lazlo don't exactly have similar reputations

Eh, on my tablet so i dont want to spend an eternity typing, but Shifters can be any alignment just like anyone else; ironically, most of the ones that are actually stated out are Selfish or Good alignments.

From a quick look through my notes, Shifters arent often called our specifically in most OCC breakdowns for most kingdoms / cities. They fall in the oft-used “other spellcasters” category.

Back of the napkin math, though, if we assume (what i think is rather low) that 5% of the “other spellcasters” are Shifters (leaving room for 19 other types od spellcasters that arent TempWiz, LLW, Mystic, warlocks, or TW, which are almost aleays called out individually)...

Id say my original estimate is pretty close. If Lazlos population breakdown is anything like Tolkeens (the only other large magic kingdom we have info on, were looking at roughly 25,000 - 30,000 Shifters in NA. That seems like a lot, until you realize there more Mystics than that in just -TWO- of the Colorado Baronies, much less the rest of NA.... and that Tolkeen prior to the war had about five times that many LLWs, TWs, and Warlocks (each).

it may not be impossible for a shifter to be good (or at least selfish), but let's face it, being a shifter is generally far more useful to someone who isn't particularly picky about right and wrong. there are loads of evil supernatural beings, with tremendous variety in their powers, while the number of good supernatural beings is far fewer. there are more evil beings willing to make pacts with shifters than there are good beings as well, if the RUE shifter pact options are any indication. and furthermore, the shifter's fluff text tells us that is pretty much how it is intended.

so yes, i'm sure lazlo has some shifters. but the OCC is far more useful to someone who is willing to summon a few gargoyles and send them off to do something without worrying too much about what else the gargoyles do along the way than it is to someone who will worry about what the gargoyles might do. the OCC is powerful enough to be useful even without doing stuff like that, but it is pretty much the iconic ability of the shifter, and you can reasonably expect most people who want to learn to be shifters are thinking about the ability to do things like that. the class doesn't force you to be evil, but there certainly is a lot of temptation in that direction.

[eliakon]

lazlo probably doesn't have tons. we can't get a concrete number of course, but shifters and lazlo don't exactly have similar reputations

Eh, on my tablet so i dont want to spend an eternity typing, but Shifters can be any alignment just like anyone else; ironically, most of the ones that are actually stated out are Selfish or Good alignments.

From a quick look through my notes, Shifters arent often called our specifically in most OCC breakdowns for most kingdoms / cities. They fall in the oft-used “other spellcasters” category.

Back of the napkin math, though, if we assume (what i think is rather low) that 5% of the “other spellcasters” are Shifters (leaving room for 19 other types od spellcasters that arent TempWiz, LLW, Mystic, warlocks, or TW, which are almost aleays called out individually)...

Id say my original estimate is pretty close. If Lazlos population breakdown is anything like Tolkeens (the only other large magic kingdom we have info on, were looking at roughly 25,000 - 30,000 Shifters in NA. That seems like a lot, until you realize there more Mystics than that in just -TWO- of the Colorado Baronies, much less the rest of NA.... and that Tolkeen prior to the war had about five times that many LLWs, TWs, and Warlocks (each).

So we increase the number of shifters fifteen fold and make 3/4 of all 'other' magic users in North America Shifters. An absurdly high percentage but lets run with it mmmm?
That gives us as many total shifters on the continent as Tokeen had Ley Line Walkers, Techno-Wizards and Warlocks...
So one moderate sized magical kingdoms mage population, just in and of itself was probably greater than the entire population of shifters on the Continent, and possibly the planet...
I'm going to go out on a limb here then and say that "Shifters are probably not going to be causing a statistically significant effect to spell prices"

[Axelmania]

Why exactly are we talking about the number of Warlocks or Mystics? These are not folks who would by or could teach spells. What matters is OCCs like the LLW, Temporal Warrior, Gypsy Wizard, Techno-Wizard, Necromancer etc. who can both teach spells and be taught them.

"Some level 15 shifters who chose to learn it on their own, and lower level shifters who are connected/wealthy enough to earn/buy a level 15 spell" > "every single shifter" is a notable increase in the amount of people who learn the spell.

Also keep in mind that 1 level 1 shifter learning the spell probably increased availability as much as 2 level 15 shifters learning the spell, because the level 15 shifters will probably be wealthy/wiser and less likely to teach the spell at half price, whereas the 1st level shifter is poor and foolish by comparison and more willing to teach the spell at half price to build a nest egg.

[eliakon]

Why exactly are we talking about the number of Warlocks or Mystics? These are not folks who would by or could teach spells. What matters is OCCs like the LLW, Temporal Warrior, Gypsy Wizard, Techno-Wizard, Necromancer etc. who can both teach spells and be taught them.

"Some level 15 shifters who chose to learn it on their own, and lower level shifters who are connected/wealthy enough to earn/buy a level 15 spell" > "every single shifter" is a notable increase in the amount of people who learn the spell.

Also keep in mind that 1 level 1 shifter learning the spell probably increased availability as much as 2 level 15 shifters learning the spell, because the level 15 shifters will probably be wealthy/wiser and less likely to teach the spell at half price, whereas the 1st level shifter is poor and foolish by comparison and more willing to teach the spell at half price to build a nest egg.

I was talking about them because it looks like it is quite possible that there were more Ley Line Walkers living in Tolkeen than there are Shifters on North American and possibly on planet Earth.
That means that the effect of the Shifters on the spell economy is going to be fairly negligible since they are statistically not very common.

And the level 1 shifter isn't going to be any less greedy simply because they are level 1. That means that it is not a simple matter of assuming that they will simply hand over their spells for a pittance because they are idiots. Generally I assume that the idiot apprentices don't make it to level 1 in their chosen OCC, especially something as dangerous as Shifting. Thus I see no reason to presume that the level 1 Shifter is going to want to give away one of their keys to power aka spells that they have and can cast that other mages don't have access to, since that means that if you want the spell cast you have to buy the casting from them, on an al a carte basis for anything less than at least an equally valuable prize. And if they do that, then the price of the spells stays exactly the same as it is now... (to be honest I find the cost of spells to be rather low as it is most of the time.)

[kaid]

One other thing that I think keeps the high level spells rare is a lot of them tend to be less generally applicable and more speciality use and or expensive to cast. A lot of low level casters just can't use them even if they know them unless they are in a big group/coven. There are ways to bootstrap to high levels of PPE to cast them but that means they have to first learn something like energy sphere and then be at a nexus or ley line for a fair bit of time to cast the spell. For probaby many spell casters even knowing how to do it would rarely be in a situation where they could use that knowledge.

Unlike many other systems the level of spell is more of an indication of complexity for casting time and large PPE cost. Even the more combat oriented spells typically don't have very long durations if you are low level casting it so basically blowing your reserves to cast a single spell that you can't effectively maintain would limit the market for them pretty sharply.

It is a bit of a question of how available spells to purchase per level can or should be. The guidelines for it are pretty vague.

[Axelmania]

I'm not talking about a pittance, I'm talking about competetive pricing. Selling a spell for 400K to undercut another shifer selling at the suggested 400K minimum. Look at the monthly salaries of many military OCCs, or the fees for mercs, or the costs of repairs, a couple hundred thou is nothing to sneeze at, even if it won't buy you your next rune weapon.

Since Energy Sphere is brought up, I believe that's a spell 2nd level Shifters can select, so it suffers from a similar if not so extreme problem. The expanded availability to 2nd level shifters would naturally drive the cost of this spell down due to competition to be the one to make the sale.

[Shark_Force]

I'm not talking about a pittance, I'm talking about competetive pricing. Selling a spell for 400K to undercut another shifer selling at the suggested 400K minimum. Look at the monthly salaries of many military OCCs, or the fees for mercs, or the costs of repairs, a couple hundred thou is nothing to sneeze at, even if it won't buy you your next rune weapon.

Since Energy Sphere is brought up, I believe that's a spell 2nd level Shifters can select, so it suffers from a similar if not so extreme problem. The expanded availability to 2nd level shifters would naturally drive the cost of this spell down due to competition to be the one to make the sale.

to be fair, i would say that energy sphere has a competing high demand to keep it expensive... pretty much no matter what kind of wizard you are, you want that spell.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not talking about a pittance, I'm talking about competetive pricing. Selling a spell for 400K to undercut another shifer selling at the suggested 400K minimum.

As I always do when this kind of thing comes up, I'll point out that Guilds exist to keep that kind of thing from happening.
They're not going to be 100% effective, but if they were entirely ineffective than they wouldn't exist.

[Axelmania]

Guilds have the capability of hoarding rare spells. They lose their power over a spell which loses its rarity.

The problem about the idea that high demand for Energy Sphere would increase its price is that spells aren't a zero-sum game. As soon as more people learn it, the availability increases.

The only way you could really control it is either go out and kill others who know it, or at least hire a 3rd level Mind Melter or 2nd level Psi Nullifier to go Mind Wipe them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Guilds have the capability of hoarding rare spells. They lose their power over a spell which loses its rarity.

Not exactly, no.
Guilds control knowledge by controlling people; if they want a spell to be more rare than it is, they can restrict sales of that spell to drive up the price.
If a guild tells its members not to sell a spell, they will not as a rule sell that particular spell.
If a guild doesn't want a college to teach or sell a particular spell, even if the college isn't staffed by guild members, there would still be various pressures that the guild could apply to the college to get them to NOT sell/teach the spell.
Demons might be trickier, but I'd say that there are still pressures that could be applied by a guild to various demons to discourage them from teaching certain spells.
Scabs who run around teaching spells in guild territory would likely face a number of discouragements as well.

The only way you could really control it is either go out and kill others who know it, or at least hire a 3rd level Mind Melter or 2nd level Psi Nullifier to go Mind Wipe them.

RUE 190
Much more common than purchasing invocations for credits is trading one's service (or the service of the group) in exchange for a couple of mid- or high-level spells (levels 5-9). The more powerful the spell, the more dangerous the work. The employer? Probably a magic guild...
...the job/quest probably involves retrieval of a person, magic object, or, really, almost anything. It may also involve murder, sabotage, framing someone, blackmail, bodyguard work, information, and a host of other things.

It doesn't have to be murder, but that's certainly on the table for guilds as a rule, as is kidnapping, blackmail, framing a person so they end up in prison (or executed, or whatever), stealing their spellbook or a magic item they own (or simply the money they got for selling the spell) and so forth.
Considering the list, I'd be surprised if breaking hands/fingers, removing limbs, and other such means of persuasion weren't also common.

I like your thinking with the Mind Wipe option too; that could make some decent adventure fodder with the PCs on either side of the bargain.

[Blue_Lion]

I should point out knowing how to do something is not the same as being able to teach others how to do it. You could be really good at something and not be able to convey it to others. Not every one has the ability to be an effective teacher even in real life more so if you look at the rules for learning magic.

The pursuit of magic list who you can purchase spells from(Rue PG 190) lets see- elder master (9th level). That means the rules are saying it takes a 9th level mage to teach magic other wise it would be just another spell caster or another mage. The listed sources Magic shop (most likely a high level mage on hand) adult or ancient dragon or 9th level mage. All are experts at magic, a level 1 Shifter is not in the same league as them when it comes to the amount of magical knowledge they posses.



You can not learn from a 1st level shifter as it is not possible to purchase spells from him no matter how much he wants to sell the spell. He is not on the list of things you can learn spells from.