dreicunan wrote:The Sea Inquisitor entry in World Book 7 lets us know that Sea Inquisitors can hold their breath twice as long underwater, and then says "about four minutes" in parenthesis.
I dunno how much authority that holds, given how Carrella books get treated in the RUE era.
dreicunan wrote:The para-trooper "Hold-breath" ability (mercenary adventures) clarifies that the average person can hold their breath for about a minute or two before dizziness occurs, followed by unconsciousness in another two minutes.
http://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/vi ... ?p=2477093 mentions it was on page 31, although that book didn't come out until 2005, and I wouldn't treat Rifts as a setting without breathing for 15 years prior to that.
dreicunan wrote:I believe one of the earlier (teens or twenties) Rifters had rules about it, but it is too late for me to go looking for where and my memory is failing me on the exact location.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=77496 has a list of which ones have official questions and answers, but I share your frustration, it's hard to remember which questions were in which books.
It'd be interesting if maybe we were allowed to reprint a portion of those with JUST the questions on the forums, but then people would have to get the Rifters to read the answers.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Apprentice mages as typically portrayed in fantasy fiction wouldn't likely have that problem. 4-8 years as a sorcerer's apprentice would probably be some long hours under a lone mentor. Hard to slip through the cracks or goof off too much with a 1:1 or 1:1d4 ratio of teachers to students.
And a LOT more time for the teacher to learn the character and skills of the students.
Of course with this approach, 4th level 12 year old Ley Line Walker Alistair Dunscon would've begun training at 4-8 years old =/
Maybe LLW stuff is easier to begin at a young age compared to Shifting? I kinda like the idea of it being a 'gateway drug' to more corrupt magical learnings. Alistair's dad Nostrous was a LLW/Temporal Wizard, it doesn't say the order of OCCs for him but my pet hunch is LLW was 1st.
Blue_Lion wrote:Rather than keeping an augment for the sake of augment I think we can all agree that if the spell is not listed as being common then there is a likely reason that the level 1 shifter is not teaching a level 15 spell. (leave it to your game group to find what works for you.)
Yeah, I think we have that consensus, with different ideas on what might be cooler explanations.
dreicunan wrote:I'm just REALLY leery of giving anyone at the traditional age range for level 1 characters the ability tear a hole through reality! I suppose that living on a planet where it happens periodically anyway probably changes the perspective that people would have.
Perhaps some defeatest "this is happening at least once a year at every nexus, the world is already in danger, you might as well profit and survive" type thing. Or good shifters who think "well, I will use the creatuers I summon to battle monsters coming from random nexus rifts".
Dimensional Portal isn't really as dangerous in a Shifter's hands, IMO, compared to their smaller simpler Rifts (OCC abilities) which cost less PPE to use. Although, maybe these aren't as risky? RUE 122 says they are "one-way" so one might interpret that as meaning that it actually doesn't allow Poltergeists to sneak into the world, and that it is only random rifts / dimensional portals which do so because they are not one-way. They are at minimum "two-way" but Poltergeists probably come from somewhere else so that's arguably 3-way in addition to 2-way.
But if I take a "X-way" to mean "at least X-way" that would also leave 1-way open-ended too. The need for DP/ROG to accomplish 2-way could be viewed as "in respect to the shifter and the target/destination" rather than in respect to 3rd party hoppers-on Poltergeists.
Razorwing wrote:the Dimensional Portal spell is likely the last one a young Shifter learns before embarking on their own career (gaining it either after years of service to their mentor in the Shifting Arts or after contacting an extra-dimensional entity that provided the spell [possibly to get the young and inexperienced shifter to do something foolish]).
I'm not aware of the shifter OCC being teachable by extra-dimensional entities. This appears to be more of an option presented AFTER becoming a shifter, for a power-up.
Funny enough, even using RMB 87 "Link to the Supernatural", the spell Dimensional Portal wasn't even an option. Page 88 only allowed selections from levels 6 to 14. The iconic Kevin Long drawing of a Shifter letting some... THING (what IS that?) in through a Rift was probably a career-long accomplishment.
The top of 88 did say:
The process of a link to a supernatural being begins with communicating with it through a rift. A small dimensional portal/rift is
created at a ley line nexus point.
But Long's image is what I would call a large dimensional portal, pretty much implying this was an accomplished shifter who somehow learned Create Dimensional Portal, either by getting to 15th level, buying the teaching, getting a scroll, or somehow learning it from the master outside of the normal 14-maximum guideline.
That or the monster knew the spell itself:
the shifter gives the monster a connection to our own dimension. Without this connection, the creature can not enter into our world, but the physical link to our planet, through the shifter, means that it can now rift into Earth.
RMB 190 "The mage can open a door to a specific world or randomly. This is the only way a greater being can enter into our dimension" in combination, I think means that greater beings (supernatural masters Shifters link to) lack the ability to be "specific" about Earth as a destination without a Shifter's help. Simply being contacted isn't enough, a link is somehow needed to connect with it enough to pinpoint it. Otherwise, they have to somehow target it at random (who knows how likely that is) or use an existing portal, or pay a ferryman.
Razorwing wrote:However, just because different disciplines of magic put a different value on the spells they teach to students, it doesn't mean the students will give that knowledge away easily. These spells are still a source of power for a Shifter as much as they would be for a Line Walker or a Techno-Wizard... and teaching others these spells would make their own knowledge less valued. Think about it... a Shifter can summon a Dimensional Portal at first level... something that a starting Line Walker or Techno-Wizard can't do... which can command a fairly hefty price for their services (creating the portal... not teaching others to do so that is). Which is likely why Shifters will be very particular about who they take on as an apprentice... and how quickly they teach that apprentice such spells.
This is an argument against ALL spell teaching, but when it comes to spells that more people know, the attitude could simply be "if I don't teach it, some other down on his luck Shifter probably will anyway, so I might as well earn the money".
The benefit of the Shifter, something that can't be easily taught (because it requires obtaining the OCC entirely) are the new OCC abilities for making 1-way portals at low PPE cost. Instead of 1000, they can take a person for a ride anywhere on Earth for 125+25 PPE using RUE 122's ability 4.
It doesn't mention any restrictions on gear, so unless you take it very literally (only the shifter and his familiar, plus however many people he pay for, come through) and everyone arrives naked (I like this! DO IT. Much more balanced.) a portal open for 1 minute can probably transmit a decent amount of equipment tossed through.
Although... the randomness does make it less useful. Level 5-9 can only target a continent or country (I kinda wish this was more specific, former is obviously better than latter) while 10+ arrive within 50/miles. The one trying to take Erin Tarn past the vampire kingdoms (before something went wrong and landed her in Wormwood) was presumably one of these higher level ones, either targeting "South America" or maybe somewhere more specific.
Razorwing wrote:As for the Line Rifters... while the Player may choose the spell that they learn from meditating on a Ley Line, that doesn't mean that the actual Character knew what spells they were going to learn... or will be taught from a mentor when they are intitially taught. Some learn Dimensional Portal... others do not. Just because a character has the potential to have such spells doesn't mean that EVERY Line Rifter does. Many players will see the cost of casting Dimensional Portal (1000 PPE) and their own small reserves and think "I'll never be able to cast that spell and there are other spells i could cast much easier... so i will take something else instead," rather than "if I take this spell i can make a fortune selling it and never need to adventure ever."
True that, though it would've been nice if we were told %s as to which spells tended to be selected, or given a random determination table for players who wanted to be surprised, like how HU has for super powers.
Razorwing wrote:Of course, even if a Shifter or Line Rifter wanted to sell such spells... finding a buyer may prove to be very difficult. Chances are most brotherhoods, guilds or schools of magic that would easily have access to the funds to buy such spells already have access to them.
That's why you bring the price down, so you have more potential clients able to afford it.
Razorwing wrote:Even being able to put it on a scroll may not find many buyers for such a spell... at least not at the price a player may want... and could end up getting a player into some potentially serious trouble (depending on where and who they are trying to sell to).
The psionic power of Object Read could be common enough to make the use of scrolls a big concern, as OR-detectives could possibly testify as to who provided the dangerous DP scroll.
Razorwing wrote:It is often cheaper to get someone to cast a spell like Dimensional Portal than to actually buy and learn the spell (save if on a scroll... but the chances of learning from that is very small and usually not worth wasting the spell to do).
Given the dangers not just of opening the DP but also in amassing the PPE to cast it (might attract trouble) I could see a lot of Shifters preferring not to want to be around for the actual casting and might prefer to have that done indirectly.
eliakon wrote:I would also like to bring up, again, the point that not everyone inside the game universe is a min-maxer who knows all the mechanics of the system, all the rules and is seeking to make themselves the most powerful and 'rules effective' person AND knows that they are the protagonist of the story and thus that they will always be the center of attention, be the center of fate and fortune, have vast amounts of plot armor, and always be around those who will take actions to advanced their story.
I don't think this requires extensive meta-knowledge. Here is what seems plausible to me.
1. player makes Shifter, reads last paragraph of ability 2. "Learning New Spells" (pg 122) on start of pg 123.
2. player asks GM "what does it mean when I can still purchase and learn spells like other magic users?" (ignoring the "they rarely do" because studying dimensions and monsters is scary, and they want to be able to protect themselves)
3. GM says that they can pay some mages to teach them spells
4. Player asks how much.
5. GM says it varies and to RP it.
6. either the player sneaks a peak at RUE 190's "Step 8: The Pursuit of Magic - Learning Spells -Purchasing Magic" or else locates another magic user and asks how much to learn a spell.
7. player then learns of the high high price of magic.
8. player then realizes they have magic, which they could also sell for high prices.
9. player then realizes neither magic user actually needs to be wealthy if they simply exchange spells, although obviously the first to teach could be at a disadvantage since his student might run away without teaching a spell in return. Trust must be built, perhaps "deposits/hostages used as collateral until the teaching fee is paid.
eliakon wrote:a LOT of the "Assumptions" that people use in their "How can I break the game" rely on having been raised in OUR world. They require a 20th or 21st century world view, modern education, access to modern levels of information (speed, depth, and ease), modern economic theory, education systems, economic systems, infrastructure systems. They are predicated on the idea that responses will be based on modern western ideas of justice, proportional response, legal theory, civil justice, civil rights, and the like. They also often rely on assuming that the motives of people in Rifts or PF are the same as those in our modern world, and that people in those worlds are all motivated solely by the same motivations as the PCs played by the people that propose the system and that thus what ever that person suggests as a motive, since it motivates their character will be the motivation of everyone universally.
NONE of that is true.
The world of Rifts doesn't work that way AT ALL.
I don't understand where you are getting the impression that someone here (do you mean me?) is attributing identical motivations to all people. If you mean a desire for wealth or power, I'm pretty sure that type of thing is commented on somewhere.
eliakon wrote:In such a world, there is no reason to presume that the majority of 1st level shifters have training in economic theory and thus understand they ideas of supply and demand and price points market saturation or any of the rest.
In such a world there is no reason to presume that every shifter in the world is obsessed with being rich. HECK I don't see any reason to even presume that most or even a statistically significant number of shifters take up their training for material wealth.
Wealth would more often be used as a means to power, as it often is in the real world. There are certainly non-monetary forms of value, such as having people in your debt or fearing you, destroying threats to yourself.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that someone has to understand economic theory to sell a service. You do not require training to know, for example, that in a town of 100 people, a masseur will have more business if he is the only masseur than if there are 50 masseurs. Understanding the difference between services being widespread (thus competing for clients) and scarce (thus clients competing for you) is basic common sense, it doesn't require any training or understanding of complex theory.
If I'm the only man in town with a dairy cow, I can easily crank up prices and many will pay because they MUST have milk. If there is another man in town with a dairy cow, I can't recklessly crank up because people have the option of getting their milk from someone else if he charges a lower price.
This sort of idea is pre-literate, probably even pre-agriculture. It is something humans are smart enough to understand on their own, learned through the experience of bartering for goods.
eliakon wrote:In such a world there is no reason to presume that those who start to undermine the wealth and power of the guilds and brotherhoods and governments and gods and whatnot are NOT going to just face a few C.A.D. letters and maybe a civil suit for damages... they are going to be, if they are lucky get told to stop, join the offended party as a minion and hand over everything they own. More likely they are going to die a hideous painful and public death as a warning to the NEXT apprentice or ten who gets any cute ideas about messing around with the big boys.
I agree with you here. This is another way in which they don't really need training, if by their nature they upset the balance competing for self-interest, that they will be checked by other powers who want to profit from scarcity, that will be their education.
eliakon wrote:Far FAR more likely is that they will agree to buy the spell...
...and then tip off the guild, and while the PCs are spending the next 20-30 days teaching the spell to the buyer the guild sends in a strike team to 'deal with the scabs'. The buyer then gets their reward for turning in a rogue, the guild gets the rogue, the strike team gets their bounty and everyone (other than the rogue of course) is happy.
I didn't even think of offering bounties like this, great idea. How long it takes to teach the spell would be a major factor in how long a guild has time to investigate and organize a response.
I'd like to consolidate information about this where we can find it. I don't really know where to look for it in Rifts. Page 247 of Palladium Fantasy 2nd had "Selling Spell Magic" which mentions:
takes two days per level of the spell being taught. Consequently, a first level spell can be learned in two days, a 2nd level spell in four, 3rd level in six and so on.
I think of these as hard minimums (meaning a 15th level is 30 days, like you said) but given that this is mentioned under the Alchemist OCC, for all I know this might be their specialty and it could take much longer for other magic users to teach spells.
When I look in other systems for example, Heroes Unlimited Revised 92 had "no less than 8 months" for self-teaching, and 1D4 months for boons from high level wizards or supernatural beings. Regarding self-teaching in PF via the Wizard's "scroll conversion" I can't remember if it said anywhere about how much time that takes to attempt. At bare minimum I figure the 30 seconds needed to read the scroll to cast it normally but I figure it should be a lot more.
I couldn't find info on it in Nightbane's main book, but TTGD mentions on 37 self-teaching existing spells is 1 month while 38 gives 2 weeks/level for inventing new spells based on existing ones and 39 gives 1 month/level for converting variant spells and 3 weeks/level for making entirely new spells. These seem generally faster than the 8 month minimum that HU uses but it doesn't give guidelines for people teaching each other spells.
I had thought I had seen the 2days/level like for PF alchemists SOMEWHERE in Nightbane's core book but I can't seem to find it so I may have just misremembered.