CS armament

[eliakon]

On the other hand, if you gave modern soldiers the choice of carrying only anti-armor weapons capable of destroying a building, OR carrying that stuff plus a conventional firearm, which way do you think they'd go?

conveniently, the CS has laser rifles that can do regular damage too. at better range, without requiring an additional element in the supply chain, and with vastly more efficiency in terms of shots per clip/magazine (and before the gun nuts get mad at me, an e-clip is by definition of the game a clip, i'm not referring to the magazine on the conventional rifle )

No.
But we did carry anything and everything we thought we might possibly need including back up weapons.
Which is why I can't imagine professional soldiers saying "well, sure all of our weapons are useless against a huge swath of enemies... lets not bring the back up pistol just incase."
Its beyond absurd.
as for your "choice"?
a back up kinetic weapon isn't a 5lb sledgehammer vs a combat knife
Its like asking if they will say "Oh never mind I don't want to bother taking my pistol and/or knife along because I have my rifle and it will never jam"
Which happens never... and if it does the rest of the patrol will smack said person around and send them back to get the rest of their gear so that they don't put everyone else in jeopardy.

a weapon is a tool, like any other. it is a tool specialized for killing things, but still a tool. it can be compared to other tools as well.

You just described the entire premise behind the "apples to oranges" fallacious logical argument
Things can only be compared to things that are actually in the same category.
You can't compare sports cars and golf carts, even though both are personal conveyances for most things as they don't overlap roles very often.

and i never argued that there would be no backup weapons, so put that strawman away. i said they wouldn't haul around highly specialized weapons that only work well on a very limited selection of uncommon targets (but only if you have specialized ammo) and doesn't work at all on the great majority of the enemies they face. especially when they can carry general purpose weapons that do everything except for working well on the very limited selection of uncommon targets, unless they specifically know they're likely to encounter those targets.

Again your making a specious argument here by making a false premise.
Defining by fiat that something is "highly specialized" and "uncommon targets" to prove that they are highly specialized and useful only on uncommon targets is circular..
Especially since their #1 enemy is one of those targets! (hint, Federation of Magic has a lot of mages, techno wizards, Mystic Knights, necromancers, demons, devils, and undead in it...)

going into vampire territory? sure they'll bring along a conventional firearm.

Again your making the false claim that vampires are the only possible foe that a kinetic weapon is useful against

on a typical wilderness patrol? their main weapon will be the energy rifle they're all issued by default. their secondary weapon will be the energy pistol they're all issued by default,

And the "weapon of choice"? Remember that? There is a reason they got issued that.

as well as grenades, a survival knife, and probably some mix of other non-energy weapons that they're also issued by default, most of which will likely be such things as mini-missile launchers, pump pistols and pump rifles, vibro-blades, neural maces, etc, but some few of which may be shotguns or conventional pistols or other things... but most of which will probably not be, because conventional firearms are just dead weight against most actual threats.

again this is only true if you fiat that it is true.
It requires pretending that there are no silver bullets, Ram-Jets, Explosive Bullets, DU-bullets, U-rounds or... well any other form of kinetic round that you cant shoot out of a laser.

this isn't a question of them bringing along a backup weapon, which CS soldiers already have plenty of. this is like arguing that modern soldiers are going to see major value in bringing along a sling just in case they completely run out of ammunition and are forced to resort to slinging stones. certainly, the sling has some potential usefulness (it's super quiet, it's easy to replace ammo, it can potentially do indirect fire, it doesn't waste a rifle round if you need to hunt birds or squirrels for food, and probably some others), but most still aren't going to go out of their way to learn how to use it, and if it was an extra 4-5 pounds of weight rather than a few ounces, it would probably get left in storage somewhere most of the time unless someone was constantly forcing them to haul it around.

No its not like bringing a sling.
Its only "a sling" if the CS is presumed to never face any demons, devils, mages, or undead and that they there for just assume that they should never have any plans on how to deal with such things.
Ever.
At all.
Sounds just like a sling right?

[Jefffar]

Based on what's been discussed, I think the following is fairly representative of the commonly carried CS Army weapons

The Grunt:
Primary Weapon C-12 or CP-40
Secondary Weapon C-18, C-20, C-5 or CA-115.
Grenades
1 or 2 Vibro Knives

The Grenadier
1 or 2 of these per squad.
They have the same loadout as the Rifleman, but their primary weapon is the C-14 or CP-50 Rifle/Grenade Launchers

The Pigman
1 or 2 of these per squad
They have the same loadout as the Rifleman, but their primary weapon is a Plasma Ejector, CR-1 Rocket Launcher or Deadman Railgun.
In some squads the heavy weapons specialists may be replaced by 'borgs or power armour troops who can carry much heavier weapons.

In special circumstances the rifleman may replace their primary weapon with a C-10, CV-212 or third party rifle or shotgun. In some cases they may carry one of these as a back up weapon, though its more reasonable to expect such a weapon to be carried in a nearby vehicle or be stored at base in most circumstances.

The CP-30 Pulse pistol might wind up being carried as a secondary weapon for Special Forces, Officers, Pigmen or in cases when their primary arm will be SDC/Kinetic in nature.

Individuals assigned to enforcement patrols or prisoner capture missions are likely to have a Neural Mace in place of (or in addition to) a vibro blade.

Finally, Special Operations Forces, while following the general principles above, are more likely to be carrying non-Coalition issue gear, multiple long arms, multiple sidearms and multiple melee weapons.

Speaking of third party weapons, I would like to point out that both Northern Gun and Wellington Industries are technically allies of the CS, so I would expect that a fair amount of authorized third party gear is purchased from them. Both make decent energy and projectile weapons.

[Shark_Force]

Silver weapons and ammunition are effective against a wide range of supernatural threats, not just vampires. While wooden stakes may not be a standard thing to lug around, a silver knife probably should be, and having at least a few slug throwers with silver rounds available is a smart move, as is having pump pistols. I know that Coalition War Campaign didn't take that into account (laser rifle, laser pistol, and survival knife), but it realky doesn't make sense.

If I were going to arm a military in any part of the Megaverse with a fair amount of magic energy, I'd be choosing loadouts that had half the people with a solid weapon rifle and energy side-arm, and the other half with an energy rifle and solid side-arm.

except that conventional SDC firearms are not good against a whole bunch of other things. haven't been for decades.

there's vampires. and werecreatures. and then we're pretty much out of published creatures that actually require silver rounds. if there are more, we certainly haven't heard of them to my knowledge.

for just about anything else, conventional firearms range from completely ineffective to completely unnecessary.

fighting SDC enemies? well, if they're not packing MD weaponry, just walk up and kill them with unarmed combat (or melee weapons), you're wearing MDC armour and they can't do squat to you, it'll be decent practice on live targets. if they are, to hell with the 10mm pistol, i'm going to blast a basketball sized hole through their torso (perhaps even through the wall they were trying to use as cover and *then* through their torso) and explain to them why you don't bring a peashooter to an anti-tank weapon fight. if anyone wants to complain about resource expenditure, i'll just ask them whether its cheaper to repair damaged armour or to recharge 1 shot from an e-clip. or, once again, use those laser rifles that also do SDC when needed, if you really feel inclined to do so, and now you don't need to carry a whole extra weapon (which, knowing the military, doesn't mean a lighter load so much as it means they add something else from the wishlist of stuff they'd like every grunt to haul), doesn't need a whole different kind of ammo (you can trade e-clips with your buddies no problem, good luck jamming a magazine of .556 ammo into your buddy's laser rifle), and thus makes logistics easier because now nobody needs to track how many bullets are needed and make a special order for them.

now certainly, non-energy weapons still have lots of value. just not so much the ones that are SDC only. in the case of the CS, they have a variety of non-energy weapons that deal respectable amounts of mega-damage, they have no need to resort to weapons that are still going to be ineffective against most energy-immune targets, because they have weapons that are effective against energy immune targets that are *also* effective against almost everything else. they have pump pistols, hand grenades, grenade launchers (which they have developed exceptionally effective grenade rounds for), railguns, mini-missile rifles, fusion blocks, vibro blades, neuro-mace, and probably a large stockpile of non-CS gear that they don't advertise because they give it to troops that they will absolutely deny are CS operatives. and i wouldn't be surprised if they have a few troops that are using weapons on a trial basis, but not in numbers large enough to get into the books... for example, we know for sure the CS has adopted the triax pump pistol, and i would not be the least bit surprised that they have a few hundred or a few thousand pump rifles that they're considering making a standard part of their arsenal, and maybe even some colombian rocket weaponry, especially for use in their southern territories). in future years, i wouldn't be terribly surprised if the CS adopted some of those weapons as standard CS equipment as well.

but 10mm pistols? yeah, the CS has those. no, they don't think they're great for use against mages, or demons, or deevils, or monsters, or really anything except vampires and werecreatures (and honestly, i'm not certain werecreatures are a big enough problem that the CS even takes them into consideration).

@eliakon:

ramjets, explosive bullets, DU bullets (which the CS doesn't use), U-rounds (which are for railguns, not 10mm pistols, and which were supposed to be a top-secret thing known only to the NGR last i heard)... at best, they're incredibly poor substitutions for proper weapons in any actual fight (and even more so when we're talking about pistols... 1 MD per shot, 1d4 MD per burst, provided your GM is generous enough to let it count as an SMG). nobody uses ramjet rounds because they're good, they use ramjet rounds because they are cheaper. the CS doesn't need cheaper rifles, and they have the tech base to mass produce laser rifles.

demons, devils, mages, and undead will in general laugh at your conventional firearms. the demons and devils are not vulnerable to silver (or wood, or cold iron), so it will just bounce right off. amusingly enough, a bog-standard laser rifle will work just fine against most of them. a mage will be wearing MDC armour and/or using an MDC protective spell, so again, those conventional firearms will do squat. and unless those undead are specifically vampires, those bullets are still not going to do anything special that couldn't be done as well or better with the regular weapons the CS uses.

there simply are not a lot of enemies where you're better off using an MP5 against them. those enemies do exist, and thus the CS will certainly have weapons designed to deal with them, and will certainly make extensive use of them when they're sending soldiers into areas where those enemies are known to be. the rest of the time, they're just taking up valuable space and weight that could be used for something more likely to be useful.

[Killer Cyborg]

Silver weapons and ammunition are effective against a wide range of supernatural threats, not just vampires. While wooden stakes may not be a standard thing to lug around, a silver knife probably should be, and having at least a few slug throwers with silver rounds available is a smart move, as is having pump pistols. I know that Coalition War Campaign didn't take that into account (laser rifle, laser pistol, and survival knife), but it realky doesn't make sense.

If I were going to arm a military in any part of the Megaverse with a fair amount of magic energy, I'd be choosing loadouts that had half the people with a solid weapon rifle and energy side-arm, and the other half with an energy rifle and solid side-arm.

except that conventional SDC firearms are not good against a whole bunch of other things. haven't been for decades.

there's vampires. and werecreatures. and then we're pretty much out of published creatures that actually require silver rounds. if there are more, we certainly haven't heard of them to my knowledge.

There are quite a few more, actually, but that's not really important.

SDC weapons are effective against SDC enemies.
Mega-Damage is rare.
So, again, I'd love to see your source that the majority of encounters for the majority of CS soldiers are going to be Mega-Damage.

[Jefffar]

Seeing as the CS soldiers standardly wear Mega Damage Capacity armour and their primary issue weapons are generally capable of Mega Damage, yes, all CS encounters are going to be Mega Damage ones - at least on one side.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seeing as the CS soldiers standardly wear Mega Damage Capacity armour and their primary issue weapons are generally capable of Mega Damage, yes, all CS encounters are going to be Mega Damage ones - at least on one side.

Sure, but not so much on the other.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm remembering how in vietnam, M60 gunners usually hauled around an SMG, despite it not being normal issue, so that they had a weapon to use at closer quarters where the big M60 couldn't be fired safely. and how the Grenadiers with the M79 Grenade Launcher usually replaced the army mandated pistol sidearm with an M16, even though it wasn't normal issue, so that they could contribute in a firefight when they couldn't use their grenade launcher.

i'm remembering how members of the US army and US marines in both WW1 and WW2 routinely carried pump action shotguns in addition to their normal rifles or SMG's, despite shotguns not being common issue because the shotguns were more effective in the german trenches and the bunker complexes of the Japanese. and how in Korea and Vietnam, shotguns having become a slightly more normal issue weapon, soldiers would go out and obtain additional ones because they didn't have enough.

maybe the CS troops wouldn't have much use for an M-16 or a Colt 1911.. but you can bet that those troops are going to see the value of a cut down shotgun. or a single shot grenade launcher (stand alone or rifle mount). or any number of non-energy weapons in the books.

[Jefffar]

Seeing as the CS soldiers standardly wear Mega Damage Capacity armour and their primary issue weapons are generally capable of Mega Damage, yes, all CS encounters are going to be Mega Damage ones - at least on one side.

Sure, but not so much on the other.

CS doesn't seem that interested in letting the other guys have a 'fair fight'

[Killer Cyborg]

Seeing as the CS soldiers standardly wear Mega Damage Capacity armour and their primary issue weapons are generally capable of Mega Damage, yes, all CS encounters are going to be Mega Damage ones - at least on one side.

Sure, but not so much on the other.

CS doesn't seem that interested in letting the other guys have a 'fair fight'

Sure, but there are more reasons to avoid using anti-armor weapons that can take out a building than just wanting a fair fight.
Kev goes over this in the books, multiple times.

I can go over it again, if you like, but do I seriously need to?

[Jefffar]

Seeing as the CS soldiers standardly wear Mega Damage Capacity armour and their primary issue weapons are generally capable of Mega Damage, yes, all CS encounters are going to be Mega Damage ones - at least on one side.

Sure, but not so much on the other.

CS doesn't seem that interested in letting the other guys have a 'fair fight'

Sure, but there are more reasons to avoid using anti-armor weapons that can take out a building than just wanting a fair fight.
Kev goes over this in the books, multiple times.

I can go over it again, if you like, but do I seriously need to?

Not really, the CS's primary energy weapon has an SDC setting anyway, so they can turn down the collateral damage meter anytime they choose.

[RockJock]

Apparently my games have a lot more demons, devils, zombies, and critters from the conversion books that are vulnerable to silver in them.

Several CS energy rifles have an SDC setting, which helps going door to door without blowing up the shanty town with an MDC blast. I brought up the SDC weapons for their ability to fire alternate rounds for versatility. Silver rounds are the main use for a 9/10mm, but a shotgun opens many possibilities, especially if it can fire mdc and sdc rounds.

[Killer Cyborg]

Seeing as the CS soldiers standardly wear Mega Damage Capacity armour and their primary issue weapons are generally capable of Mega Damage, yes, all CS encounters are going to be Mega Damage ones - at least on one side.

Sure, but not so much on the other.

CS doesn't seem that interested in letting the other guys have a 'fair fight'

Sure, but there are more reasons to avoid using anti-armor weapons that can take out a building than just wanting a fair fight.
Kev goes over this in the books, multiple times.

I can go over it again, if you like, but do I seriously need to?

Not really, the CS's primary energy weapon has an SDC setting anyway, so they can turn down the collateral damage meter anytime they choose.

I went over that already: two of the CS's common weapons have SDC settings.
And that does a lot of good for soldiers who are issued either or those two weapons.
What do you figure the rest of the CS soldiers do...?

[Jefffar]

I went over that already: two of the CS's common weapons have SDC settings.
And that does a lot of good for soldiers who are issued either or those two weapons.
What do you figure the rest of the CS soldiers do...?

Actually its 5.

3 are primary infantry rifles, carried by 60 to 80% of frontline soldiers depending on which version of the typical coalition squad you believe.

The individuals who are not carrying one of these weapons are carrying grenade launchers, plasma ejectors, missile launchers or railguns as their primary weapons. Their job isn't to sweep through houses in the burbs, but to lay heavy fire when something big and nasty pops up while the rest of the squad does the sweep. You don't want them to have an SDC primary weapon because it is directly counter to their primary role.

Still, the Grenade Launchers and Missile Launchers can be used to fire smoke and chemical munitions that won't blow apart a shanty if that's what is needed.

As mentioned, there are 5 weapons with SDC as a primary setting, 3 are primary arms. The other 2? They are secondary arms that can easily be carried in addition to thee primary heavy weapon. So yes, the heavy weapons types can have an SDC option without trading in their primary weapon or carrying a second long arm. If they really want to, they can just grab a spare C-12/CP-40/CV-212 and solve the dilemma that way.

But also, this is the CS army, they aren't exactly afraid to use overkill. The SDC settings on their rifles are probably more for conserving ammunition against unarmored foes than they are for preventing collateral damage.


Now there are good reasons for CS troops to grab some slug throwers. But unless they are aware of a specific situation where they will need them, bringing along hard ammo side arms like the C-5 or the CA-115 will give them that hard ammo capability without an undue increase in their carry weight or the loss of their primary weapon. That is what I would expect them to do in most situations.

[Shark_Force]

yes, soldiers will find ways to acquire weapons to fill roles that their standard weapons don't fill... if those roles come up frequently. this claim that MDC and MD are rare is not remotely shown in the books. it even talks about a random farmer having a shiny new triax rifle. a regular farmer. not exactly talking about the 1% here.

but it needs to be something that their current weapons don't do and which comes up often.

and for the record... i don't recommend sending an army to go do *anything* and expect no collateral damage. there's a reason police don't receive the exact same training as a typical soldier, and why the military has a separate organization of military police. but, in the event that no collateral damage is a reasonable expectation (which is not the case if *either* side is using MD weaponry), i expect CS soldiers that don't have the SDC rifle options just walk up and use unarmed combat while enjoying the fact that their MDC armour protects them quite effectively from everything the other side is trying to do. or use the knife they're all issued instead of unarmed combat. or use some other melee weapon. but they're all proficient in unarmed combat, not 100% are trained with knives or maces or swords.

[dreicunan]

@Shark_force: If you aren't aware of how many deevils and demons alone have vulnerabilities to silver, you really need to read dimension books 10 and 11.

[Shark_Force]

@Shark_force: If you aren't aware of how many deevils and demons alone have vulnerabilities to silver, you really need to read dimension books 10 and 11.

are they also vulnerable to getting shot in the face with a laser rifle, rail gun slug, pump gun round, fragmentation grenade, or armour-piercing mini-missile?

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

@Shark_force: If you aren't aware of how many deevils and demons alone have vulnerabilities to silver, you really need to read dimension books 10 and 11.

are they also vulnerable to getting shot in the face with a laser rifle, rail gun slug, pump gun round, fragmentation grenade, or armour-piercing mini-missile?

Definitely.

But if you're going to crunch numbers and stick to what's published, rather than what makes sense, it's highly beneficial to use SDC weapons loaded up with silver ammo (against the hordes of Hades and Dyval at least). An M2 HMG loaded with silver bullets is more effective than a C-40R even if the C-40 is also using silver. Especially if you use the stats in the modern weapons compendium, rather than the generic stats in the Rifts corebook (maybe also RUE). 1D6x10+10, IIRC, *PER SHOT*, though the 7D6 of the RMB/RUE stats is nothing to sneeze at either. An FN-FAL, AR-10, or M-14 loaded with silver ammo is almost as good as a C-27; if you use the weapons compendium stats, it might be better (long time since I've looked, so I don't remember if 7.62 NATO does 6D6 or 7D6 in MWC).

As for whether or not any given CS soldier is carrying an M1 Thompson loaded with silver rounds, or a 1911 or the 10mm from HoH, that's the kind of thing that's up to the GM, and while I might discuss the logistics and rationale of it with them, tell them how *I* would do things, and hope that they had a good reason for CS soldiers to be carrying their standard-issue weapons PLUS silver-tipped chainsaws, katanas, and a 7.62x51mm minigun other than "Is TEH COOLZ!", ultimately it's their game and I won't presume to tell them how to run it. Especially when I'm not one of the participants.

[Killer Cyborg]

I went over that already: two of the CS's common weapons have SDC settings.
And that does a lot of good for soldiers who are issued either or those two weapons.
What do you figure the rest of the CS soldiers do...?

Actually its 5.

Huh.
C-12
CP-40
CV-212 (which I forgot had an SDC setting)
What are the other 2?

Still, the Grenade Launchers and Missile Launchers can be used to fire smoke and chemical munitions that won't blow apart a shanty if that's what is needed.

True.

But also, this is the CS army, they aren't exactly afraid to use overkill. The SDC settings on their rifles are probably more for conserving ammunition against unarmored foes than they are for preventing collateral damage.

If they're attacking an enemy base, sure.
If they're operating in CS territory, I disagree. There are plenty of situations where they wouldn't want to destroy their own forests, buildings, civilians, etc.

Now there are good reasons for CS troops to grab some slug throwers. But unless they are aware of a specific situation where they will need them, bringing along hard ammo side arms like the C-5 or the CA-115 will give them that hard ammo capability without an undue increase in their carry weight or the loss of their primary weapon. That is what I would expect them to do in most situations.

This comes back to the following question:
In a setting where Mega-Damage is considered to be "rare," do you expect that "most situations" would entail primarily mega-damage or primarily SDC?

[Killer Cyborg]

this claim that MDC and MD are rare is not remotely shown in the books.

RUE 357
Mega-Damage weapons are still uncommon.
It mat bit seen like it to the player characters, because getting and using such items and battling MDC opponents are all part of their job description. However, to the average person, Mega-Damage items are rare and valuable.

Yes, the majority of the stuff we see in the Rifts books deals with mega-damage.
No, that doesn't mean that the majority of the population has access to mega-damage gear, nor that the majority of policing or soldiering duties involve a lot of mega-damage.
Just like the HU books deal mostly with super-powers, magic, and high technology, but that doesn't make those things common, nor does it mean that the majority of policing and soldiering duties involve super-powers, magic, or high-technology.

it even talks about a random farmer having a shiny new triax rifle. a regular farmer. not exactly talking about the 1% here.

Feel free to use direct quotes, especially for descriptions that hinge on key words.
That saves ME the effort of spending 10+ minutes flipping through the books, guessing at what passage you're thinking of, and at what you got wrong.
For example, in this case my best guess is that you're thinking of SB1 14, describing Rural Communities or Villages:
The level of technology is likely to be low, although that is not to say that papa doesn't own a nice, new Triax pulse rifle or a hover vehicle.
Notice that the words "random farmer" aren't in that passage.
For all we know, Papa is the sheriff. Or he IS a farmer, but he's also part of the town militia.

And it certainly doesn't say anything about him necessarily buying it himself.

Who "papa" is, and how he got his shiny toy is up to us to guess, and we can either guess something that conflicts with the overall theme of "mega-damage is rare," or we can guess something that works with that theme.

and for the record... i don't recommend sending an army to go do *anything* and expect no collateral damage.

Then I hope you're never in charge of organizing routine patrols or any situation in which soldiers interact with civilians.

there's a reason police don't receive the exact same training as a typical soldier,

The relative size of the military budget compared to the budget of a police department.

i expect CS soldiers that don't have the SDC rifle options just walk up and use unarmed combat while enjoying the fact that their MDC armour protects them quite effectively from everything the other side is trying to do. or use the knife they're all issued instead of unarmed combat. or use some other melee weapon.

In a lot of situations, sure.
But a lone CS soldier wading into a group of a dozen unarmed civilians isn't likely to come out on top of things, so there are plenty of situations where SDC guns would be handy.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

this claim that MDC and MD are rare is not remotely shown in the books.

RUE 357
Mega-Damage weapons are still uncommon.
It mat bit seen like it to the player characters, because getting and using such items and battling MDC opponents are all part of their job description. However, to the average person, Mega-Damage items are rare and valuable.

Yes, the majority of the stuff we see in the Rifts books deals with mega-damage.
No, that doesn't mean that the majority of the population has access to mega-damage gear, nor that the majority of policing or soldiering duties involve a lot of mega-damage.
Just like the HU books deal mostly with super-powers, magic, and high technology, but that doesn't make those things common, nor does it mean that the majority of policing and soldiering duties involve super-powers, magic, or high-technology.

99% of the time i agree with you, but as my research showed when i did a thread about it...

you're wrong.

This is yet another example of Kevin saying one thing in a throwaway line and then the actual books directly and unequivocally prove incorrect and false.

Its not a debatable issue. When over 40% of the population has regular access to MD, it is not rare. (and before we get into your silly "well different people consider different things 'rare' semantics" - dont even bother. If you think 40% is rare, there is no point in even trying to have a discussion, because you're either not living in the real world with the rest of us or are being deliberately argumentative and annoying, and i dont really care to deal with either.)

And if we're looking for another thing Kevin says that is wrong:

Techno-wizardry is a new invention since the coming of the Rifts and is a North-American thing and all Technowizards are aviator-crazed scarf-wearing fartnozzles.

Except for that part where Atlanteans did it ten+ thousand years ago, its been around in the Three Galaxies for ten times that long, and the Splugorth for even longer. Oh, and there are TW traditions on mainland europe and in south america and Japan.

Ill take the actual statistics over Kevin's absurd throaway fluff lines that are provably false any day of the week and ten times on Sunday.

Oh, by the way.. "little villages" in Colorado are often THOUSANDS OF MILES APART.

Yeah, Kevin said that too.

[Killer Cyborg]

this claim that MDC and MD are rare is not remotely shown in the books.

RUE 357
Mega-Damage weapons are still uncommon.
It mat bit seen like it to the player characters, because getting and using such items and battling MDC opponents are all part of their job description. However, to the average person, Mega-Damage items are rare and valuable.

Yes, the majority of the stuff we see in the Rifts books deals with mega-damage.
No, that doesn't mean that the majority of the population has access to mega-damage gear, nor that the majority of policing or soldiering duties involve a lot of mega-damage.
Just like the HU books deal mostly with super-powers, magic, and high technology, but that doesn't make those things common, nor does it mean that the majority of policing and soldiering duties involve super-powers, magic, or high-technology.

99% of the time i agree with you, but as my research showed when i did a thread about it...

you're wrong.

This is yet another example of Kevin saying one thing in a throwaway line and then the actual books directly and unequivocally prove incorrect and false.

Its not a debatable issue. When over 40% of the population has regular access to MD, it is not rare.

If you want to argue about it, then make a formal argument that includes your sources.
The whole "make a thesis statement, provide support, make a conclusion" format usually works pretty well.

[dreicunan]

@Shark_force: If you aren't aware of how many deevils and demons alone have vulnerabilities to silver, you really need to read dimension books 10 and 11.

are they also vulnerable to getting shot in the face with a laser rifle, rail gun slug, pump gun round, fragmentation grenade, or armour-piercing mini-missile?

Do those weapons also pose a threat to vampires and were-creatures? While you've quoted me several times and then proceeded to rail against sdc weapons specifically, I've never made that argument. I specifically mentioned pump pistols as something that should be part of the mix. You are the one who claimed that after vampires and were-creatures that was it for vulnerabilities to silver. That id so demonstrably false as to be ridiculous. Hence why I directed you to some sources that show how absolutely wrong you are. You are welcome.

[eliakon]

@Shark_force: If you aren't aware of how many deevils and demons alone have vulnerabilities to silver, you really need to read dimension books 10 and 11.

are they also vulnerable to getting shot in the face with a laser rifle, rail gun slug, pump gun round, fragmentation grenade, or armour-piercing mini-missile?

Do those weapons also pose a threat to vampires and were-creatures? While you've quoted me several times and then proceeded to rail against sdc weapons specifically, I've never made that argument. I specifically mentioned pump pistols as something that should be part of the mix. You are the one who claimed that after vampires and were-creatures that was it for vulnerabilities to silver. That id so demonstrably false as to be ridiculous. Hence why I directed you to some sources that show how absolutely wrong you are. You are welcome.

Bascially it seems to be an issue of how different people play their game.
Some people play the game as all regular MDC all the time, and keep things like undead, mages, weres and other things with invulnerabilities for rare encounters.
Some people play the game with those things being very common.
Some people play somewhere in the middle.

If your game doesn't have many threats that can't be hurt by a laser rifle in it because of the way the GM chooses to set up their game, and populate their encounters, then guess what... your world wont need to have people carry anything but laser rifles.
If your game DOES have lots of threats that can't be hurt by a laser rifle in it though, again because of the way the GM chooses to set up their game and populate their encounters then in that world you WILL need to carry non-energy weapons regularly.

This (like so many arguments so often) is not really about the book and more about how one groups play style affects their game vs another groups playstyle. Both groups though are having a hard time seeing that the way that they play is not the "real" or "official" setting as it is "supposed to be". It is just how they choose to make it. Both versions are valid, both are right... and both require different accommodations.

[eliakon]

this claim that MDC and MD are rare is not remotely shown in the books.

RUE 357
Mega-Damage weapons are still uncommon.
It mat bit seen like it to the player characters, because getting and using such items and battling MDC opponents are all part of their job description. However, to the average person, Mega-Damage items are rare and valuable.

Yes, the majority of the stuff we see in the Rifts books deals with mega-damage.
No, that doesn't mean that the majority of the population has access to mega-damage gear, nor that the majority of policing or soldiering duties involve a lot of mega-damage.
Just like the HU books deal mostly with super-powers, magic, and high technology, but that doesn't make those things common, nor does it mean that the majority of policing and soldiering duties involve super-powers, magic, or high-technology.

99% of the time i agree with you, but as my research showed when i did a thread about it...

you're wrong.

This is yet another example of Kevin saying one thing in a throwaway line and then the actual books directly and unequivocally prove incorrect and false.

Its not a debatable issue. When over 40% of the population has regular access to MD, it is not rare.

If you want to argue about it, then make a formal argument that includes your sources.
The whole "make a thesis statement, provide support, make a conclusion" format usually works pretty well.

Easy.
RUE pg 129 "Favored clothing is Pre-Rifts aviator uniforms, flight jackets, jumpsuits blah blah"
Which is of course manifestly impossible for the TWs in the 3-Gs...which we are told btw to use these stats for.

Or we could look at Australia page 142 where for some mind boggling reason all the TW devices are listed as being useless...
...even though according to both the RMB and RUE rules any men of magic, or psychic, or other similar beings can use them intuitively.
Which sort of means that if 25% or more of the population can use a thing then it is probably not something that no Australian knows how to use.

Or maybe we want to compare the write up of Biomancy in WB6 with the one ine WB 32
OHHh better, we can look at Lemuria.
Where they say that Biomancy is the art of respecting life and being one with nature and all that hippy stuff...
...and then actually READ what the Lemurians are actually DOING with it.
Hmmm, twisting life forms into mind controlled suicidal slaves? (read Symbiotic Living Torpedo on page 146...) That doesn't sound very nice.
Releasing ecologically invasive life forms into the environment just for kicks? That doesn't sound very nice
In fact if you actually READ the book you realize that unlike the original Biomancy, and the Biomancy that the fluff claims that these guys hold to? They are the same sort of twisted evil freaks as the Splugorth.
But hey, the book says they are 100% hippie good guys so when THEY enslave, and pillage and rape its good right?

Or we could look at the claims that North America is a remote and forbidding place that no one can cross safely...
...except of course for that Air North America airline on page 30 of Merctown
Speaking of Merctown I thought the CS had a shoot on sight no questions asked policy on Naruni... it was an act of war they would do anything to deal with it...
..except I guess for the SHOWROOM in the city and the wide use of such weaponry there.
Oh, and the Megaversal Legion who supposedly knows nothing about earth...
...has an outlet in the city.

SO yeah... the game has no consistency, retcons all the time, and fluff is overridden routinely by what ever seems cool at the time.
(note this was just written on the spur of the moment with just glancing at a couple books. I'm pretty sure that sitting down and actually doing a full in depth analysis would turn up dozens more such instances)

[Killer Cyborg]

SO yeah... the game has no consistency, retcons all the time, and fluff is overridden routinely by what ever seems cool at the time.

Any part of that demonstrate that 40% of the population has access to mega-damage, or that mega-damage isn't rare...?

[Shark_Force]

@Shark_force: If you aren't aware of how many deevils and demons alone have vulnerabilities to silver, you really need to read dimension books 10 and 11.

are they also vulnerable to getting shot in the face with a laser rifle, rail gun slug, pump gun round, fragmentation grenade, or armour-piercing mini-missile?

Do those weapons also pose a threat to vampires and were-creatures? While you've quoted me several times and then proceeded to rail against sdc weapons specifically, I've never made that argument. I specifically mentioned pump pistols as something that should be part of the mix. You are the one who claimed that after vampires and were-creatures that was it for vulnerabilities to silver. That id so demonstrably false as to be ridiculous. Hence why I directed you to some sources that show how absolutely wrong you are. You are welcome.

those other weapons don't also need to pose a threat to vampires and were-creatures unless those enemies are faced regularly.

if you're going into vampire territory? yeah, you'll bring along some conventional firearms (though most likely you won't be hauling around a .50 cal machine gun, unless you're a juicer maybe). otherwise, you don't need a gun with silver bullets. those demons and deevils are vulnerable to all kinds of things. things which you're already carrying. being vulnerable to silver isn't completely meaningless, but it's pretty danged close. not "i have an urgent need to haul around an extra 5 pounds of gear" important, certainly, and definitely not enough to make it a standard for most soldiers. the need for non-energy weapons exists all across the CS. the need for anti-vampire weapons (and that's still the only compelling reason to haul around an extra weapon that requires an entire extra component to the supply chain, because everything else you can just keep right on using your standard-issue laser rifle) really only exists in a few places in the CS. that isn't to say they'll be unheard of; maybe someone is just completely paranoid about vampires (maybe they moved to the CS from juarez or something). maybe they just like the feel of conventional firearms. maybe they have a shotgun that is a family heirloom, and they don't want to part with it because it's their good luck charm.

but mostly, it just isn't needed remotely often. which means the people in command aren't going to push it, and a typical grunt won't be pushing for it.

the CS has those weapons. they use them in the rare situation where it's needed. they probably have at least a few stored in every armory in the nation, just in case a vampire problem develops. but they're not a critical part of their equipment for the most part, and it isn't part of their core training. they aren't going to issue it as standard equipment, and apart from specific areas of their territory, they're not likely to use it much.

@ KC: soldiers are trained to kill people. police are trained to not kill people. not just "police are not trained to kill people" (because if it comes down to it, they are absolutely capable of that, and do get training in doing that if required), but specifically, they are trained to not kill people. that doesn't work out 100% of the time (turns out "not killing people" while capturing and disabling them is not quite as straightforward as it sounds, and it turns out that other factors can certainly interfere, ranging from personal prejudice to poor judgment to misunderstanding the situation and beyond), but there is very much a difference in kind, not just in quantity, when it comes to training each organization. that's why military police exist. and when you start talking about militaries that are not modern first world militaries, you get a heck of a lot less respect for non-soldiers, less discipline, less education, less concern for the sanctity of life, etc.

[Killer Cyborg]

@ KC: soldiers are trained to kill people. police are trained to not kill people. not just "police are not trained to kill people" (because if it comes down to it, they are absolutely capable of that, and do get training in doing that if required), but specifically, they are trained to not kill people. that doesn't work out 100% of the time (turns out "not killing people" while capturing and disabling them is not quite as straightforward as it sounds, and it turns out that other factors can certainly interfere, ranging from personal prejudice to poor judgment to misunderstanding the situation and beyond), but there is very much a difference in kind, not just in quantity, when it comes to training each organization. that's why military police exist. and when you start talking about militaries that are not modern first world militaries, you get a heck of a lot less respect for non-soldiers, less discipline, less education, less concern for the sanctity of life, etc.

And....?

[glitterboy2098]

SO yeah... the game has no consistency, retcons all the time, and fluff is overridden routinely by what ever seems cool at the time.

Any part of that demonstrate that 40% of the population has access to mega-damage, or that mega-damage isn't rare...?

not really. it just means that 40% is far more visible and diverse. much like how in the USA there are as many firearms as there are people, statistically.. but only about 20% of the population owns firearms, and half of those only own a single firearm, and about 3% of the population owns over half the firearms. that puts the bulk of the firearms into the hands of a statistically tiny number of people, yet that tiny number of people is also the ones that tend to make the major news due to firearms related stuff.

in rifts, only 40% may have access to MDC capabilities.. but those 40% are the ones defending and/or attacking the other 60%. which means they are the ones players are most likely to have to concern themselves with, since those without MDC capabilities are basically background NPC's most of the time.

[Shark_Force]

@ KC: soldiers are trained to kill people. police are trained to not kill people. not just "police are not trained to kill people" (because if it comes down to it, they are absolutely capable of that, and do get training in doing that if required), but specifically, they are trained to not kill people. that doesn't work out 100% of the time (turns out "not killing people" while capturing and disabling them is not quite as straightforward as it sounds, and it turns out that other factors can certainly interfere, ranging from personal prejudice to poor judgment to misunderstanding the situation and beyond), but there is very much a difference in kind, not just in quantity, when it comes to training each organization. that's why military police exist. and when you start talking about militaries that are not modern first world militaries, you get a heck of a lot less respect for non-soldiers, less discipline, less education, less concern for the sanctity of life, etc.

And....?

you said the CS military needs weapons that cause minimal collateral damage. that's not what armies are for.

[Killer Cyborg]

@ KC: soldiers are trained to kill people. police are trained to not kill people. not just "police are not trained to kill people" (because if it comes down to it, they are absolutely capable of that, and do get training in doing that if required), but specifically, they are trained to not kill people. that doesn't work out 100% of the time (turns out "not killing people" while capturing and disabling them is not quite as straightforward as it sounds, and it turns out that other factors can certainly interfere, ranging from personal prejudice to poor judgment to misunderstanding the situation and beyond), but there is very much a difference in kind, not just in quantity, when it comes to training each organization. that's why military police exist. and when you start talking about militaries that are not modern first world militaries, you get a heck of a lot less respect for non-soldiers, less discipline, less education, less concern for the sanctity of life, etc.

And....?

you said the CS military needs weapons that cause minimal collateral damage. that's not what armies are for.

Quote me.

[Killer Cyborg]

SO yeah... the game has no consistency, retcons all the time, and fluff is overridden routinely by what ever seems cool at the time.

Any part of that demonstrate that 40% of the population has access to mega-damage, or that mega-damage isn't rare...?

not really. it just means that 40% is far more visible and diverse. much like how in the USA there are as many firearms as there are people, statistically.. but only about 20% of the population owns firearms, and half of those only own a single firearm, and about 3% of the population owns over half the firearms. that puts the bulk of the firearms into the hands of a statistically tiny number of people, yet that tiny number of people is also the ones that tend to make the major news due to firearms related stuff.

in rifts, only 40% may have access to MDC capabilities.. but those 40% are the ones defending and/or attacking the other 60%. which means they are the ones players are most likely to have to concern themselves with, since those without MDC capabilities are basically background NPC's most of the time.

In America, would you say that the majority of police encounters are with people armed with guns?

[eliakon]

SO yeah... the game has no consistency, retcons all the time, and fluff is overridden routinely by what ever seems cool at the time.

Any part of that demonstrate that 40% of the population has access to mega-damage, or that mega-damage isn't rare...?

Rifts Adventure Guide page 105 "A good number of wilderness people still live as barbarians...blah blah" it goes on to define barbarians as including all the natives, psi-stalker tribes etc..
This is important because...
1d4x10% of any barbarian tribe will wear light to heavy environmental armor
And more importantly
"At least 1d4x10+45% of all adult males (17 and up) will have some kind of M.D. energy rifle and one other M.D. Weapon"
when a MINIMUM of 55% of the males have 2 MD weapons and as many as 85% do... in a normal tribe or gathering of barbarians...
That doesn't sound 'rare'

But wait there's more!
The townies get their turn. But they don't get a 'random roll' instead they use the famed Palladium "creation table" system thus we turn to page 110
A. Weapons and Armor spending 0-45 points on this nets the town some MD weapon (admittedly the 0 is 1d4 grenades or 1 light machine gun but still...)
E. 4 Average (note the name?) nets you "a fair number of utilitarian motor vehicles in reasonably good condition (A couple might even be M.D.C), ... in addition, it will have one beat up M.D.C. cargo hauling truck or four-wheel drive vehcicle like the Big Boss or Mountaineer. In fact 10% are M.D.C. vehicles"

H. Magic sadly we have to go all the way up toe #3 to get mages and psychics capable of providing M.D. capability.

J. Level 6, 7 and 8 towns have MDC market places.

O. In addition to the weapons in A they can have security. If they buy #5 or #6 they get power armor or better

That doesn't sound like "Rare" that sounds like "you have to work at it to make it not have MD." especially since the options are
"Homestead" (An individual family farm)
"Small Shanty Town (a small, struggling community that lack the resources to survive)
"Wilderness Gag or Barbarian Settlement" And remember how well armed barbarians are?
"Small Town" Which explicitly says that they should have modern vehicles and weapons
"Typical Wilderness Town" Which by this point has so many points that it is pretty hard to NOT have MD. Literally you would have to max out every feature making it a utopia... but that some how survives with no defenders at all )
"Militaristic Encampment" (name says it all"
"Major Town or City" (At this point I am not sure if it is even possible to not get MD weapons)

Then of course we can look at the tables for Syndicates, Guilds, and Traveling shows...
Or look at the make up of the street gangs (which are described as ruling virtually all of the bubs). They are made up of... O.C.C.s all of which start with M.D. weapons and armor. And I don't see any notes about "these groups do not get the normal equipment for their O.C.C."

All of this, at least to me, says "M.D. Weapons and Armor are pretty common" and "a pretty hefty chunk of the population have them"
Does everyone and their dog have M.D. weapons? No of course not.
But they are not super rare objects. Most towns will have at least a few M.D. weapons if not a fully armed militia.

[Killer Cyborg]

SO yeah... the game has no consistency, retcons all the time, and fluff is overridden routinely by what ever seems cool at the time.

Any part of that demonstrate that 40% of the population has access to mega-damage, or that mega-damage isn't rare...?

Rifts Adventure Guide page 105 "A good number of wilderness people still live as barbarians...blah blah" it goes on to define barbarians as including all the natives, psi-stalker tribes etc..
This is important because...
1d4x10% of any barbarian tribe will wear light to heavy environmental armor
And more importantly
"At least 1d4x10+45% of all adult males (17 and up) will have some kind of M.D. energy rifle and one other M.D. Weapon"
when a MINIMUM of 55% of the males have 2 MD weapons and as many as 85% do... in a normal tribe or gathering of barbarians...
That doesn't sound 'rare'

First and foremost, I appreciate your effort and research.


Moving on...
It doesn't sound rare... among barbarians, who make up "a good number of wilderness people."
Depending on what "a good number" is, and how many "wilderness people" there are, Mega-Damage may or may not be rare overall.

But wait there's more!
The townies get their turn. But they don't get a 'random roll' instead they use the famed Palladium "creation table" system thus we turn to page 110
A. Weapons and Armor spending 0-45 points on this nets the town some MD weapon (admittedly the 0 is 1d4 grenades or 1 light machine gun but still...)

#3 is "Good," which it can be assumed is roughly average or better.
"10% have mega-damage weapons."
"All militiamen and law officers have light ot medium MDC body armor; most are environmental types."
"Likewise, 1d4% of the regular citizens may have a light, homespun MDC armor."

So 90% of the population doesn't have MD weapons, and this is "Good" weapons.
"All militiamen and law officers" could mean "the one sheriff" or it could mean "every able-bodied person of fighting age." Not very clear there, and it would vary from location depending on local customs and laws, so it may or may not be more than the 1d4% of the regular citizens.
BUT we do know that if only 1% of the citizens have MDC armor, that is still considered to be "Good."

E. 4 Average (note the name?) nets you "a fair number of utilitarian motor vehicles in reasonably good condition (A couple might even be M.D.C), ... in addition, it will have one beat up M.D.C. cargo hauling truck or four-wheel drive vehcicle like the Big Boss or Mountaineer. In fact 10% are M.D.C. vehicles"

Yup.
The community overall has "a fair number" of utilitarian motor vehicles.
Of these vehicles, 10% are MDC.
What "a fair number" means exactly would depend at least partly on the size of the community, I'd think.
But say you have a community of 360 people.
What do you think that "a fair number" of motor vehicles would entail?
If you assume that an average family size is 4 people (not necessarily a fair assumption), then 1 utilitarian motor vehicle per family would mean that the community would have 90 motor vehicles.
To me, that seems like more than "a fair number," but let's look at it.
At 90 motor vehicles overall for that community, that would mean that 9 of them are MDC.
I can see 9 examples in a sample of 360 people as being "rare" or "uncommon."

H. Magic sadly we have to go all the way up toe #3 to get mages and psychics capable of providing M.D. capability.

History has shown that you and I are often saddened or gladdened by widely different things.

J. Level 6, 7 and 8 towns have MDC market places.

Level 6 is basically Mos Eisley, so yeah.
Levels 7 and 8 are going to better than 6, so yeah.

But notice that at Level 6, the Trading Port/Barter Town, MDC armor & weapons (as most items in the books) sell for 20% higher than book price, minimum, with gusts up to 200% higher than book price.
And notice that nothing lower than level 6 mentions MDC goods as being available, a conspicuous absence considering the markup at Level 6, and the fact that level 4 is "Established Trade," where at least 1/3 of the community's income/resources comes specifically from trade.

O. In addition to the weapons in A they can have security. If they buy #5 or #6 they get power armor or better

Sure... but if they don't have 25 points to spend on the high-end of things, they don't get power armor or better.
Level 4 or lower just gets generic "militia," "sheriff," or "volunteers," and "the exact types of vehicles, weapons, equipment, and other resources will depend on the amount of points spent in other categories."
So even if a community has a "Standing Army" of 40-160 troops, they might be almost entirely SDC-equipped if the community spent 0 points on Weapons & Armor.

That doesn't sound like "Rare" that sounds like "you have to work at it to make it not have MD." especially since the options are
"Homestead" (An individual family farm)
"Small Shanty Town (a small, struggling community that lack the resources to survive)
"Wilderness Gag or Barbarian Settlement" And remember how well armed barbarians are?
"Small Town" Which explicitly says that they should have modern vehicles and weapons
"Typical Wilderness Town" Which by this point has so many points that it is pretty hard to NOT have MD. Literally you would have to max out every feature making it a utopia... but that some how survives with no defenders at all )
"Militaristic Encampment" (name says it all"
"Major Town or City" (At this point I am not sure if it is even possible to not get MD weapons)

Rolling randomly, the average is going to be #4, "Advanced Village or Small Town."
That's usually going to be 1d6x100+60 people, and a point budget of 185.
There are 17 categories of development, which would give an average of 10.88 points per category IF things were going to be distributed evenly.
Of course, different categories have different average costs:
A. Weapons & Armor has a point range of 0-45, with a median of 22.5 points. "4. Well Armed" costs 20 points.
B. Medicine has a point range of 0-35, with a median of 17.5 points. "4. Very Good" costs 15 points.
C. Agriculture and Natural Resources has a point range of 0-30, with a median of 15 points. "4. Good" costs 20 points.
D. Real Estate/Land has a point range of 0-40, with a median of 20 points. "5. Prime Location" costs 15 points.
E. Vehicles & Fuel has a point range of 0-35, with a median of 17.5 points. "5. Good" costs 15 points.
F. Administration & Social Structures has a point range of 0-20, with a median of 10 points. "4. Good/Sound Structure" costs 20 points.
G. Alignment has a point range of 0-8, with a median of 4 points. "5. Unprincipled" costs 4 points.
H. Magic has a point range of 0-30, with a median of 15 points. "4. Vast Knowldge" costs 15 points.
I. Racial Tolerance has a point range of 0-12, with a median of 6 points. "3. Reasonably Tolerant" costs 5 points.
J. Trade has a point range of 0-40, with a median of 20 points. "6. Trading Post or Barter Town" costs 20 points.
K. Threats has a point range of 0-30, with a median of 15 points. "3. Moderately Dangerous or Low Threats" costs 10 points.
L. Skill Levels & Professionalism is different from the other categories, in that it's not a spectrum and it has no median overall. A community is expected to have 1-5 of these individuals as a rule, and the average of that is 3.
The cost per individual is 4-15, for an average of 9.5.
So the average cost would range from 12-45, around 28.5.
This wouldn't mean that the average community spends 28.5 points, necessarily, but it's our closest guess at what an overall "average" would be represented as.
(There is probably a better way to calculate this one. If so, I welcome the input of mathier people than myself!)
M. The Overall Community has a point range of 0-30, with a median of 15 points. "3. Skilled" costs 10 points.
N. Shelter has a point range of 0-35, with a median of 17.5 points. "5. Excellent" costs 18 points.
O. Security & Fighting Forces has an interesting point range. The base cost of each category ranges between 0 and 35, but the top level (6. Small Mechanized Army) has an option to spend 70 points for double the number.
If we treat that as the top number, then the point range is 0-70, for a median of 35.
If we treat that as part of tier 6, and average 35 and 70 in order to get an average cost for Tier 6, then we come up with 52.5. This would give us a range for the category overall as 0-52, with an average of 26.
"5. Mixed Fighting Force" is 25 points.
P. Power/Energy has a point range of 0-40, with a median of 20 points. "4. Good, Hydroelectric" costs 20 points.
Q. Special Features can be bought up to 3 times, for an average of 1.5 times. The average cost per feature is 10.25 by my calculations, so that would be an overall hypothetical average of 15.375.

Long story short, by my calculations, in order to meet the "average" for every single category, a community would need to spend an average of 16.8161765 points per category, which is more than most communities have.

An average community with 185 points to spend will only be able to reach that "average/good" level in 11 of the 17 categories, and that's if they use up all 185 points trying to hit the average--they'll have zero left over for the remaining 6 categories.
While this is doable, I believe, and can achieve a working community, I don't think that it would be the standard or common distribution.

None of which is intended to prove much of anything--it's mostly me sorting through the information to come up with a somewhat clear picture.
Overall, it looks like #4 is the most common Average/Good level, and that most communities won't be able to achieve that in the all categories. They'll have to pick and choose (or to have fate pick and choose for them) which areas their points go to.

With GMs and players, this kind of picking and choosing is going to be biased based on how they already envision the world, so it can't tell us much: players who think there are MDC monsters attacking every place daily will spend all their points on armor, weapons, and security. Players who think that significant MDC threats are rare will likely spend their points elsewhere.

Then of course we can look at the tables for Syndicates, Guilds, and Traveling shows...

Looking at organized crime, criminals, and/or adventurers isn't a way to get a good picture of overall scarcity.

Does everyone and their dog have M.D. weapons? No of course not.
But they are not super rare objects. Most towns will have at least a few M.D. weapons if not a fully armed militia.

Agreed.
Not everybody has them.
They're not SUPER rare; just rare. Most towns will only have a few MD weapons, and possibly a MD militia.

In the context of this thread, what does that mean?
Well, it means that if the CS is attacking, policing, or occupying an average town, they're not likely to need much in the way of MD weaponry when it comes to killing people. Once they pacify the militia, most of the mega-damage threat is gone, and conventional SDC weapons could be used to control the population.
Especially if the CS was interested in keeping the community and structures intact, instead of blowing holes in buildings ever time they need to shoot an individual.

Yes, there are CS energy weapons that have SDC settings.
No, that does not mean that they wouldn't also have SDC weapons as fairly common side-arms.

The original post asked the question, "What weapons are most iconic in the hands of the following CS troops, do you think?"
And while I do think that it's perfectly reasonable for SDC weapons to be fairly common side-arms with the CS, I don't see them as being iconic, if only because they're not portrayed in the artwork.

[Natasha]

The way I see it is that the problem is intractable.

Using fluff text as evidence for scarcity is like using the gospels as evidence for immaculate conception, and using RAW introduces one contradiction after another. If M.D.C. is rare, then algebra hardly exists. Most of the adventurer and scholar classes cannot solve x + 5 = 2 and the vagabonds and wilderness scouts cannot even tell you that -3 + 5 = 2 without the player burning 1-2 skill selections, but they all have M.D.C. without lifting a finger.

If M.D.C. is where you find people, is M.D.C. scarce? It seems possible to me to draw two opposing conclusions, both valid.

As for avoiding collateral damage, there are no RAW requiring a missed laser blast to damage anything.

The CS clearly issues weapons according to mission parameters. If S.D.C. weaponry is determined to be a mission requirement, then the simplest solution is to issue C-12s and carry on.

[eliakon]

The way I see it is that the problem is intractable.

Using fluff text as evidence for scarcity is like using the gospels as evidence for immaculate conception, and using RAW introduces one contradiction after another. If M.D.C. is rare, then algebra hardly exists. Most of the adventurer and scholar classes cannot solve x + 5 = 2 and the vagabonds and wilderness scouts cannot even tell you that -3 + 5 = 2 without the player burning 1-2 skill selections,

And they can't read this argument either. What's your point?
Just because we today consider having a high school education (which includes Literacy in native language and Basic Math) to be the mark of a 'normal' person that doesn't mean that it has been the norm for most of human history. Nor that in the absence of an education system that it would become the norm again.

but they all have M.D.C. without lifting a finger.

Yep

If M.D.C. is where you find people, is M.D.C. scarce? It seems possible to me to draw two opposing conclusions, both valid.


As for avoiding collateral damage, there are no RAW requiring a missed laser blast to damage anything.

There is discussion of this in several places (I am recalling a the discussion in a book where it talks about a missed pistol shot going on to take out several SDC trees) and of course the simple fact that unless the GM is playing a rather unusual game object permanence is a normal part of the world. It doesn't have to be stated that things that exist will continue to exist, even after you stop looking at them or stop using them. As this would normally include things like bullets, grenades, and yes the photons in a laser, it would seem most likely that they too continue to exist and do not spontaneously cease to exist. I suppose that a GM can just assume that everything ceases to exist once it leaves the particular fight that is in play...
...but that seems to be neither very logical nor supported by anything I can find in the rules. Especially since we see that area attacks already are known to hit things besides the combatant and not just 'any other fighter but only fighters nothing else'. So we already know that collateral damage is a thing from at least some attacks (Shotguns, sprays, explosives, certain flamethrowers, chemical weapons, etc.)
So yes, while there are no specific rules for deciding who or what gets hit... it is pretty clear that things do get hit. It's just up to the GM to decide what gets hit based on the location that the fight is in, what's around, what anyone else in the area is doing... stuff like that.
Take a patrol of 5 grunts, 1 officer, 1 psi stalker 3 dog boys and 2 SAMAS (aka a not to unusual CS patrol). They are battling a force of a Borg, a hatchling dragon, a juicer, a Mind Melter, and a Ley Line Walker (aka a party of adventurers)
If they fight in the middle of a forest is probably just going to result in some blown up trees and pits in the ground.
if they fight in the middle of the down town of the lesser mostly SDC city of New Tokyo it is probably going to end up with hundreds of civilians dead and thousands injured as buildings collapse, cars explode and the street is shattered as the combatants get their Godzilla on.


The CS clearly issues weapons according to mission parameters. If S.D.C. weaponry is determined to be a mission requirement, then the simplest solution is to issue C-12s and carry on.[/quote]

[Killer Cyborg]

The way I see it is that the problem is intractable.

Using fluff text as evidence for scarcity is like using the gospels as evidence for immaculate conception, and using RAW introduces one contradiction after another.

True.

If M.D.C. is rare, then algebra hardly exists. Most of the adventurer and scholar classes cannot solve x + 5 = 2 and the vagabonds and wilderness scouts cannot even tell you that -3 + 5 = 2 without the player burning 1-2 skill selections, but they all have M.D.C. without lifting a finger.

Untrue.
I mean, I don't know that we need to tangent off into yet another long argument, but....
The rule is that Skills grant the character certain abilities,
NOT
Certain abilities are only ever possible for characters with a Skill that specifically lists them.

There is an official skill called "Mathematics (Advanced)" which provides "all basic and advanced mathematics, including algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, and techniques for using advanced mathematical formulae."
So anybody with this skill can perform (or attempt to perform) algebra.
But
(All X) can (Y)
does not mean
(Only X) can (Y).

While it is true that (Anybody with the Mathematics: Advanced Skill) can (solve x + 5 = 2),
It is NOT true that (Everybody without the Mathematics: Advanced Skill) cannot (solve x + 5 = 2).

(Everybody without the Mathematics: Advanced Skill) cannot (solve x + 5 = 2) is NOT something addressed in canon.
It IS something that we can discuss the plausibility and realism of, though.

IF it is true that only people with Math: Advanced can perform any algebra, even the simplest equation.
THEN the reverse is necessarily true: Anybody whom can perform even the simplest algebraic equation possesses the Math: Advanced skill.

[eliakon]

The way I see it is that the problem is intractable.

Using fluff text as evidence for scarcity is like using the gospels as evidence for immaculate conception, and using RAW introduces one contradiction after another.

True.

If M.D.C. is rare, then algebra hardly exists. Most of the adventurer and scholar classes cannot solve x + 5 = 2 and the vagabonds and wilderness scouts cannot even tell you that -3 + 5 = 2 without the player burning 1-2 skill selections, but they all have M.D.C. without lifting a finger.

Untrue.
I mean, I don't know that we need to tangent off into yet another long argument, but....
The rule is that Skills grant the character certain abilities,
NOT
Certain abilities are only ever possible for characters with a Skill that specifically lists them.

There is an official skill called "Mathematics (Advanced)" which provides "all basic and advanced mathematics, including algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, and techniques for using advanced mathematical formulae."
So anybody with this skill can perform (or attempt to perform) algebra.
But
(All X) can (Y)
does not mean
(Only X) can (Y).

While it is true that (Anybody with the Mathematics: Advanced Skill) can (solve x + 5 = 2),
It is NOT true that (Everybody without the Mathematics: Advanced Skill) cannot (solve x + 5 = 2).

(Everybody without the Mathematics: Advanced Skill) cannot (solve x + 5 = 2) is NOT something addressed in canon.
It IS something that we can discuss the plausibility and realism of, though.

IF it is true that only people with Math: Advanced can perform any algebra, even the simplest equation.
THEN the reverse is necessarily true: Anybody whom can perform even the simplest algebraic equation possesses the Math: Advanced skill.

You do seem to need Mathematics (Basic) since it is "Knowledge of basic math, including the ability to count, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and fractions."
That suggests, strongly, two things.
1) that Mathematics (Basic) does NOT allow you to perform algebra of any sort
2) that with out Mathematics (Basic) you are functionally illiterate when it comes to math of any sort.
If you want to be able to read you have to take Literacy, if you want to be able to do math more complex than counting on your fingers you need Mathematics (Basic). That's just how it is. It sucks skill slot wise, but that's just how it is. A GM can of course make a house rule to change things up however they like. Just like many GMs allow even illiterate people to read a few basic common signs a GM may allow you to do some simple math with out the skill, that's up to them. But RAW you need seem to need the skill to do it.

P.S. as for the All X can Y vs Only X can Y thing...
...in a game where you have to buy skills to gain the ability to do something (Must have X to do Y) it would seem that the prima fascia case would be that yes indeed only X can Y since that is the whole purpose of making people buy skills to do things. This would seem to be born out by the fact that they feel compelled to explicitly tell us when there are exceptions and it is possible to do Y with out X (Weapon Proficiencies).

[Natasha]

The way I see it is that the problem is intractable.

Using fluff text as evidence for scarcity is like using the gospels as evidence for immaculate conception, and using RAW introduces one contradiction after another. If M.D.C. is rare, then algebra hardly exists. Most of the adventurer and scholar classes cannot solve x + 5 = 2 and the vagabonds and wilderness scouts cannot even tell you that -3 + 5 = 2 without the player burning 1-2 skill selections,

And they can't read this argument either. What's your point?
Just because we today consider having a high school education (which includes Literacy in native language and Basic Math) to be the mark of a 'normal' person that doesn't mean that it has been the norm for most of human history. Nor that in the absence of an education system that it would become the norm again.

but they all have M.D.C. without lifting a finger.

Yep

If M.D.C. is where you find people, is M.D.C. scarce? It seems possible to me to draw two opposing conclusions, both valid.


As for avoiding collateral damage, there are no RAW requiring a missed laser blast to damage anything.

There is discussion of this in several places (I am recalling a the discussion in a book where it talks about a missed pistol shot going on to take out several SDC trees) and of course the simple fact that unless the GM is playing a rather unusual game object permanence is a normal part of the world. It doesn't have to be stated that things that exist will continue to exist, even after you stop looking at them or stop using them. As this would normally include things like bullets, grenades, and yes the photons in a laser, it would seem most likely that they too continue to exist and do not spontaneously cease to exist. I suppose that a GM can just assume that everything ceases to exist once it leaves the particular fight that is in play...
...but that seems to be neither very logical nor supported by anything I can find in the rules. Especially since we see that area attacks already are known to hit things besides the combatant and not just 'any other fighter but only fighters nothing else'. So we already know that collateral damage is a thing from at least some attacks (Shotguns, sprays, explosives, certain flamethrowers, chemical weapons, etc.)
So yes, while there are no specific rules for deciding who or what gets hit... it is pretty clear that things do get hit. It's just up to the GM to decide what gets hit based on the location that the fight is in, what's around, what anyone else in the area is doing... stuff like that.
Take a patrol of 5 grunts, 1 officer, 1 psi stalker 3 dog boys and 2 SAMAS (aka a not to unusual CS patrol). They are battling a force of a Borg, a hatchling dragon, a juicer, a Mind Melter, and a Ley Line Walker (aka a party of adventurers)
If they fight in the middle of a forest is probably just going to result in some blown up trees and pits in the ground.
if they fight in the middle of the down town of the lesser mostly SDC city of New Tokyo it is probably going to end up with hundreds of civilians dead and thousands injured as buildings collapse, cars explode and the street is shattered as the combatants get their Godzilla on.

My point is precisely what I said: the problem is intractable. It is because the facts are irrelevant or render themselves useless. We have to interpret them. We proceed from our interpretations; they yield the axioms and premises. Opposing interpretations do not invalidate one another by the mere fact that they are opposing.

The reason to bring up mathematical skill is to provide an example of the futility of using the source material in a rigorous manner. Some of the occupations enumerated cannot be performed without the ability to count, perform arithmetic operations, and solve equations; yet this ability is missing from those occupations. Even CS grunts can't count out of the gate, which is something a grunt is going to need to be able to do unless they are not expected to know how many enemy soldiers they observed and so on. I cannot rely on the RAW to say that most people have figured out counting, arithmetic, and solving simple equations -- which anybody interested in the value of things and not getting swindled, to time anything, and gobs of other things we take for granted that we could not do by the RAW. Neither can I rely on the RAW to say that they haven't because that's absurd.

But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

[Killer Cyborg]

By claiming that CS Grunts can’t count, you seem to have missed my point.

[eliakon]

The way I see it is that the problem is intractable.

Using fluff text as evidence for scarcity is like using the gospels as evidence for immaculate conception, and using RAW introduces one contradiction after another. If M.D.C. is rare, then algebra hardly exists. Most of the adventurer and scholar classes cannot solve x + 5 = 2 and the vagabonds and wilderness scouts cannot even tell you that -3 + 5 = 2 without the player burning 1-2 skill selections,

And they can't read this argument either. What's your point?
Just because we today consider having a high school education (which includes Literacy in native language and Basic Math) to be the mark of a 'normal' person that doesn't mean that it has been the norm for most of human history. Nor that in the absence of an education system that it would become the norm again.

but they all have M.D.C. without lifting a finger.

Yep

If M.D.C. is where you find people, is M.D.C. scarce? It seems possible to me to draw two opposing conclusions, both valid.


As for avoiding collateral damage, there are no RAW requiring a missed laser blast to damage anything.

There is discussion of this in several places (I am recalling a the discussion in a book where it talks about a missed pistol shot going on to take out several SDC trees) and of course the simple fact that unless the GM is playing a rather unusual game object permanence is a normal part of the world. It doesn't have to be stated that things that exist will continue to exist, even after you stop looking at them or stop using them. As this would normally include things like bullets, grenades, and yes the photons in a laser, it would seem most likely that they too continue to exist and do not spontaneously cease to exist. I suppose that a GM can just assume that everything ceases to exist once it leaves the particular fight that is in play...
...but that seems to be neither very logical nor supported by anything I can find in the rules. Especially since we see that area attacks already are known to hit things besides the combatant and not just 'any other fighter but only fighters nothing else'. So we already know that collateral damage is a thing from at least some attacks (Shotguns, sprays, explosives, certain flamethrowers, chemical weapons, etc.)
So yes, while there are no specific rules for deciding who or what gets hit... it is pretty clear that things do get hit. It's just up to the GM to decide what gets hit based on the location that the fight is in, what's around, what anyone else in the area is doing... stuff like that.
Take a patrol of 5 grunts, 1 officer, 1 psi stalker 3 dog boys and 2 SAMAS (aka a not to unusual CS patrol). They are battling a force of a Borg, a hatchling dragon, a juicer, a Mind Melter, and a Ley Line Walker (aka a party of adventurers)
If they fight in the middle of a forest is probably just going to result in some blown up trees and pits in the ground.
if they fight in the middle of the down town of the lesser mostly SDC city of New Tokyo it is probably going to end up with hundreds of civilians dead and thousands injured as buildings collapse, cars explode and the street is shattered as the combatants get their Godzilla on.

My point is precisely what I said: the problem is intractable. It is because the facts are irrelevant or render themselves useless. We have to interpret them. We proceed from our interpretations; they yield the axioms and premises. Opposing interpretations do not invalidate one another by the mere fact that they are opposing.

The reason to bring up mathematical skill is to provide an example of the futility of using the source material in a rigorous manner. Some of the occupations enumerated cannot be performed without the ability to count, perform arithmetic operations, and solve equations; yet this ability is missing from those occupations. Even CS grunts can't count out of the gate, which is something a grunt is going to need to be able to do unless they are not expected to know how many enemy soldiers they observed and so on. I cannot rely on the RAW to say that most people have figured out counting, arithmetic, and solving simple equations -- which anybody interested in the value of things and not getting swindled, to time anything, and gobs of other things we take for granted that we could not do by the RAW. Neither can I rely on the RAW to say that they haven't because that's absurd.

But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Lol
Sad but true.
Your absolutely right. Attempting to hew to the strictest most literal possible interpretation of the RAW will always lead to conflicts, inconsistencies, paradoxes and the like. That is, of course, one of the big reasons why there is a GM.
And I do agree with you. That there are a lot of times when one will need to pick which one of several mutually incompatable RAWs to use, or if they want to introduce their own house rule. (disclaimer. I allow anyone to do simple counting, addition and subtraction with out needing any sort of math skill. Basic Math is where you get stuff like multiplication, division, decimals, fractions and basically everything up to algebra (it includes the simplest versions of that as well) where you move into advanced math)

[eliakon]

By claiming that CS Grunts can’t count, you seem to have missed my point.

I'm not sure what your point was then.
Because it looked like you were trying to make a claim that boiled down to the text should always be relied on in any and all cases, and in any case of conflict assume that the most pessimistic results are the ones to use.
Thus when there are differing statements on the rarity of MDC we should always assume that those that say they are rare trump anything that says it isn't rare.
MY point was that hewing to that stance requires one to also apply that criterion to everything. Which results in CS soldiers who have to, at best, count everything on their fingers...

Or more bluntly I am saying that the claim that MDC must be treated as rare as some sort of inviolate canon that is not subject to any dissent is nonsense and instead should be treated as it seems to actually be... a suggestion that may have once applied to at one time to what Rifts may have been intended to be when it first started but certainly isn't anything at all like what it is now.

[Killer Cyborg]

By claiming that CS Grunts can’t count, you seem to have missed my point.

I'm not sure what your point was then.

I'll restate it:

(All X) can (Y)
does not mean
(Only X) can (Y)

Do you believe that to be untrue?

Edit:
For example, RUE 324
The skill "Lore: Cattle & Animals" includes "General knowledge about cattle, horses, livestock, and wild animals, including what they eat..."

Would you argue that because this skill provides knowledge of what cattle eat (i.e., "cows eat grass"), that the only way for any characters to possess the knowledge that cows eat grass would be for them to have the Lore: Cattle & Animals skill?
If so, on what basis?
If not, then you have found one of countless examples of how (All X) can (Y) does not mean (Only X) can (Y).

[Killer Cyborg]

The way I see it is that the problem is intractable.

Using fluff text as evidence for scarcity is like using the gospels as evidence for immaculate conception, and using RAW introduces one contradiction after another.

True.

If M.D.C. is rare, then algebra hardly exists. Most of the adventurer and scholar classes cannot solve x + 5 = 2 and the vagabonds and wilderness scouts cannot even tell you that -3 + 5 = 2 without the player burning 1-2 skill selections, but they all have M.D.C. without lifting a finger.

Untrue.
I mean, I don't know that we need to tangent off into yet another long argument, but....
The rule is that Skills grant the character certain abilities,
NOT
Certain abilities are only ever possible for characters with a Skill that specifically lists them.

There is an official skill called "Mathematics (Advanced)" which provides "all basic and advanced mathematics, including algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, and techniques for using advanced mathematical formulae."
So anybody with this skill can perform (or attempt to perform) algebra.
But
(All X) can (Y)
does not mean
(Only X) can (Y).

While it is true that (Anybody with the Mathematics: Advanced Skill) can (solve x + 5 = 2),
It is NOT true that (Everybody without the Mathematics: Advanced Skill) cannot (solve x + 5 = 2).

(Everybody without the Mathematics: Advanced Skill) cannot (solve x + 5 = 2) is NOT something addressed in canon.
It IS something that we can discuss the plausibility and realism of, though.

IF it is true that only people with Math: Advanced can perform any algebra, even the simplest equation.
THEN the reverse is necessarily true: Anybody whom can perform even the simplest algebraic equation possesses the Math: Advanced skill.

You do seem to need Mathematics (Basic) since it is "Knowledge of basic math, including the ability to count, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and fractions."

Incorrect.
Mathematics (Basic) allows for certain things.
It does not provide exclusive domain over those things.

That suggests, strongly, two things.
1) that Mathematics (Basic) does NOT allow you to perform algebra of any sort

Correct.
At the same time, it does not forbid the performance of any algebra.
There is no rule anywhere in the books that forbids performing simple algebra, even if one has no skills at all.

2) that with out Mathematics (Basic) you are functionally illiterate when it comes to math of any sort.

Not exactly.
Mathematics (Basic) allows you to perform the listed functions, but it does not prevent people without the skill from performing any of those functions.
Mathematics (Basic), for example, allows you to count to 10.
But it doesn't mean that you can't necessarily count to 10 without that skill.

If you want to be able to read you have to take Literacy, if you want to be able to do math more complex than counting on your fingers you need Mathematics (Basic).

See what you did right there?
You allowed for the possibility of people being able to count without using the Mathematics (Basic) skill.
This is because the fact that Mathematics (Basic) allows you to count does NOT mean that you cannot necessarily ever count under any circumstances without that particular skill.
Because

(All X) can (Y)
does not mean
(Only X) can (Y)

P.S. as for the All X can Y vs Only X can Y thing...
...in a game where you have to buy skills to gain the ability to do something (Must have X to do Y)

Find a rule in Rifts that states you must have skills to do anything and/or everything provided by that skill, and you will have a solid case.
But there is no such rule.

Having a skill doesn't mean that you're at the bare minimum ability to do something; it means that you're skilled at something.

[Natasha]

IF it is true that only people with Math: Advanced can perform any algebra, even the simplest equation.
THEN the reverse is necessarily true: Anybody whom can perform even the simplest algebraic equation possesses the Math: Advanced skill.

Which is an interpretation, not RAW. No RAW governs a character without Math: Advanced skill attempting algebra. All we can do is make interpretations. There are no appeals to authority.

Likewise, when there are contradicting RAW, our only recourse is interpretation.

So, for the scarcity of M.D.C. a player (or character for that matter) might say, "everywhere I go I see M.D.C. even (especially) when I don't expect to because I'm told it's rare and seeing is believing". It requires an interpretation. Perhaps the scarcity is the proverbial black swan. Perhaps the contradictory text is simply that and, as a result, absurd and M.D.C. is everywhere. Both are valid even though they follow from different interpretations.

[Killer Cyborg]

IF it is true that only people with Math: Advanced can perform any algebra, even the simplest equation.
THEN the reverse is necessarily true: Anybody whom can perform even the simplest algebraic equation possesses the Math: Advanced skill.

Which is an interpretation, not RAW.

It's logic based on the position that you and others have posed, that people without a skill cannot perform any function of that skill.
The end result doesn't make sense, which is why you know that the starting premise is incorrect: "Garbage In, Garbage Out" also means that if there's Garbage Out, then there's some Garbage going IN.

No RAW governs a character without Math: Advanced skill attempting algebra. All we can do is make interpretations. There are no appeals to authority.

Which is exactly why it is incorrect to claim that Grunts cannot perform (or attempt to perform) Algebra.
There is no rule claiming that they cannot do so.

Likewise, when there are contradicting RAW, our only recourse is interpretation.

So, for the scarcity of M.D.C. a player (or character for that matter) might say, "everywhere I go I see M.D.C. even (especially) when I don't expect to because I'm told it's rare and seeing is believing". It requires an interpretation. Perhaps the scarcity is the proverbial black swan. Perhaps the contradictory text is simply that and, as a result, absurd and M.D.C. is everywhere. Both are valid even though they follow from different interpretations.

We are flat-out told that MDC is "rare" or "uncommon."
We are NOT flat-out told that MDC is common.
Therefore, "MDC is rare" or "MDC is uncommon" are RAW.
"MDC is common" is NOT RAW; it is guesswork based on the limited view of of the world that the players are shown.

Moreove, the declarations that Mega-Damage is rare or uncommon are declarations of intent about the game world. They aren't just RAW, they're also describing the Rules As Intended.
IF the material that Palladium produces creates the impression in players that those statements are incorrect, then that impression conflicts not only with RAW, but also with RAI.
I do not consider player opinions that conflict with RAW and RAI to be "valid."

****, "Valid" is a specific term with a specific meaning.
An argument is valid if and only if it takes a form that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false.
To date, I have not once seen any argument that MDC is not at the least "uncommon" that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false.
If you've seen one, then let me know.

[dragonfett]

It could be implied that MDC just by the economy. MD equipment, while 100x better, also is way more expensive. That alone will make MD equipment less common.

[Natasha]

IF it is true that only people with Math: Advanced can perform any algebra, even the simplest equation.
THEN the reverse is necessarily true: Anybody whom can perform even the simplest algebraic equation possesses the Math: Advanced skill.

Which is an interpretation, not RAW.

It's logic based on the position that you and others have posed, that people without a skill cannot perform any function of that skill.
The end result doesn't make sense, which is why you know that the starting premise is incorrect: "Garbage In, Garbage Out" also means that if there's Garbage Out, then there's some Garbage going IN.

No RAW governs a character without Math: Advanced skill attempting algebra. All we can do is make interpretations. There are no appeals to authority.

Which is exactly why it is incorrect to claim that Grunts cannot perform (or attempt to perform) Algebra.
There is no rule claiming that they cannot do so.

What happens when an unskilled in algebra grunt attempts algebra? What rule shall I apply? What rolls do I make? It is self evident rules that don't exist cannot be cited for anything.

Do you think this is equivalent to claiming they can't attempt algebra? If so, why? Because that't not what I'm claiming.

Likewise, when there are contradicting RAW, our only recourse is interpretation.

So, for the scarcity of M.D.C. a player (or character for that matter) might say, "everywhere I go I see M.D.C. even (especially) when I don't expect to because I'm told it's rare and seeing is believing". It requires an interpretation. Perhaps the scarcity is the proverbial black swan. Perhaps the contradictory text is simply that and, as a result, absurd and M.D.C. is everywhere. Both are valid even though they follow from different interpretations.

We are flat-out told that MDC is "rare" or "uncommon."
We are NOT flat-out told that MDC is common.
Therefore, "MDC is rare" or "MDC is uncommon" are RAW.
"MDC is common" is NOT RAW; it is guesswork based on the limited view of of the world that the players are shown.

Moreove, the declarations that Mega-Damage is rare or uncommon are declarations of intent about the game world. They aren't just RAW, they're also describing the Rules As Intended.
IF the material that Palladium produces creates the impression in players that those statements are incorrect, then that impression conflicts not only with RAW, but also with RAI.
I do not consider player opinions that conflict with RAW and RAI to be "valid."

RAI can be self-contradicting, too. Intentions can change. Intentions can be forgotten. Mistakes can be made. We can misunderstand intention. Lots of ways for things to go wrong with intention.

We are told it's rare, yet we see it everywhere. That's not a guess. Is there a passage that says it's a guess based on the limited view of the world? What about characters who don't have limited views of the world? It's just all interpretation.

Sure, it still might be rare. Or the source material has stepped all over itself and it actually is common.

****, "Valid" is a specific term with a specific meaning.
An argument is valid if and only if it takes a form that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false.
To date, I have not once seen any argument that MDC is not at the least "uncommon" that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false.
If you've seen one, then let me know.

What about "M.D.C. is rare" is undeniably true? Without requiring people to ignore the exceptions which are so many they're hardly exceptional but normal. We can establish whether or not clean drinking water and plumbing is common or not in the real world by counting. We cannot quantify M.D.C. in Rifts. We can't really establish the truth of the statement "M.D.C. is rare". Such a claim is immediately contradicted where M.D.C. is common because the statement does not say "M.D.C. is overall rare, although concentrations of it exist that may lead to confusion". We are still making interpretations, selecting for ourselves what is undeniably true.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

As i already covered, MDC is not “rare”.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=153111

37.7% is not rare. Its a direct contradiction of the fluff statement “MDC is Rare” (from RMB) in the various Worldbooks, where the actual statistics given show that LOTS of people are armed with MDC.

If Kevin intended for MDC to be rare, he should have exercised even the tiniest bit of editorial ability and not let the follow-on books outright contradict his intentions.


Proof id in the puding, as it were. MDC is not Rare. Neither is it “common”, but it is not rare. Not when youre closing in on 40% of the detailed people having MDC.

[Natasha]

It could be implied that MDC just by the economy. MD equipment, while 100x better, also is way more expensive. That alone will make MD equipment less common.

It really is dependent on the individual game whether the higher prices mean the equipment is less common. I've been in some games where it just means a few extra zeros and still they don't even notice them.

[Natasha]

As i already covered, MDC is not “rare”.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=153111

37.7% is not rare. Its a direct contradiction of the fluff statement “MDC is Rare” (from RMB) in the various Worldbooks, where the actual statistics given show that LOTS of people are armed with MDC.

If Kevin intended for MDC to be rare, he should have exercised even the tiniest bit of editorial ability and not let the follow-on books outright contradict his intentions.


Proof id in the puding, as it were. MDC is not Rare. Neither is it “common”, but it is not rare. Not when youre closing in on 40% of the detailed people having MDC.

And just about anybody who wants it, will have it. Just become a vagabond.