Psi stalkers and superpower

[Killer Cyborg]

the 1st time it was mentioned what their str is.....

Page 32 3rd paragraph, 3rd sent.
"Their physical strength is the equivalent to a supernatural being,"
The fourth sentence says that they are not true SN beings.

Okay.
That does not mean that they don't have Supernatural PS.

My fundamental point is that the TJ's str is not SNPS because the text says it isn't

The text does not say that it isn't.
The text (as we have quoted) states "this strength is supernatural," which is the exact opposite of saying that it isn't.

, AND that the TJ's are not in themselves SN/CoM/Magic/Psi/superpowered.
Therefor ALL the yelling that it is SNPS as it is normally understood to be is just plain wrong. As such, your conclusions are wrong.

Again, if you can find a passage saying that vampires are only harmed by supernatural PS from True Supernatural Creatures, or only harmed by Supernatural Strength of any particular kind, then you might have an argument.
Let me know if this happens.

Until then:
P1: Anybody with supernatural PS can harm vampires.
P2: Titan Juicers have supernatural PS.
Conclusion: Titan Juicers can harm vampires.

[13eowulf]

I thought this may be of relevance here

Mortal beings with the super ability of Supernatural P.S. also do damage to vampires as per their Supernatural P.S.

Seems to me that says that Mortal Beings who have SNPS, and keeping in mind that the argument is that mortal beings who have SNPS are not themselves supernatural beings (because otherwise they would be called supernatural beings and not mortal begins), can inflict damage to Vampires.
Which, from what I can read, and I am a very critical reader, that Titan Juicers can inflict damage to vampires, regardless of the source of their great strength.

And, for the record, I do see that it says "super ability of Supernatural P.S.", however it does not specify super power. Supernatural P.S. is an ability, and it is indeed super, but it is not strictly referring to the HU2 super power. As such I find the Titan Juicer falls into this category as they indeed have that ability.

[dreicunan]

the 1st time it was mentioned what their str is.....

Page 32 3rd paragraph, 3rd sent.
"Their physical strength is the equivalent to a supernatural being,"
The fourth sentence says that they are not true SN beings.

My fundamental point is that the TJ's str is not SNPS because the text says it isn't, AND that the TJ's are not in themselves SN/CoM/Magic/Psi/superpowered.
Therefor ALL the yelling that it is SNPS as it is normally understood to be is just plain wrong. As such, your conclusions are wrong because it does not meet the three qualifications set in VKr about what damages vamps.

It says the SN do damage with their hand to hand attacks.
It says that CoM do damage with their hand to hand attacks.
With both of these it says nothing about it being their SNPS that is the reason for them doing the damage.
With the CoM it Does Say that it is their magical nature that allows them to damage vamps.

Even the mortal with the SNPS super ability it does not say that it is because it is the SNPS that is the reason.
As such all the yelling about SNPS is just a bunch of Hot Air.

Which leaves it to that the only given that the only one that gives a reason, IS the reason. That the attacks do damage because they are of a mystical nature.

Therefor, the TJs non-mystical str does not hurt vamps.

"anyone else with supernatural PS." No mention of mystical origin, which is made moot as a point anyways since not all creatures with the super ability of supernatural strength have a mystical origin for that strength. You don't get to claim that this is irrelevant. SNPS is clearly what matters for inflicting full damage, because that is why creatures of magic or mortal beings with it through completely non-mystical means still inflict full damage.

Thanks for sharing your house rules, but stop presenting them as a canon answer.

[drewkitty ~..~]

@ KC That the quoted text say that they do not have SNPS is Exactly what it says. So I don't know how any other meaning could be see in those words.

I will try to simplify things and make a comparisons so people can understand the of the text being talked about.

A railgun that does 2d6 MD is only equivlant to a particle beam that does 2d6 MD. But That does not make the railgun damage a vamp like a particle does. (i.e: the railgun being a TJ and the Part. Beam being SN/CoM beings or a mortal with the SUPER POWER of SNPS. In how they can do equivalent damage to mundane stuff but when talking about Vamps one does NO DAMGE and the other does damage the vamp.)
No I need to make it more blatent...
Would sub'ing in a firebolt pistol that does 2d6 MD for the Particle beam be blatent enough?

If the CS e-clip has 20 shots worth of charge and FSE-e-clip hold a 20 shot charge...they can be considered to hold the same charge...but they are not the same.

If the Power armor can lift the same amount as a godling, does not mean that the power armor's str SNPS.

If you don't understand how the TJs' str can be equal to SNPS but lack the mystical nature that allows the SN/COM and those with the SNPS super power to damage Vamps, then I give up trying to convince you how wrong you are. And I will just leave it that you don't understand it and move on.
-------------------
@ 13
The text is clear that only mortals with the SNPS super ability can harm vamps with their hand to hand attacks. Leaving off the 'super ability' part means you are going off what the text said.
In the HU lexicon, what are commonly known as super powers, are specificly named 'Super Abilities'. And that in the HU text they list the minor powers as "minor super abilities" major powers as "majore super abilities". So maybe you are in need of some reading. Since the relevent text does say the 'SNPS super ability"
--------------------
@ dre...
Since TJ's do not have have the SNPS that SN beings, COM beings do and do not have the SNPS super ability. Pointing out that CoM that have SNPS do the same as others with SNPS is like pointing out that all the horses run at horse speed when talking about a giant drug pumped up sloth running about the same speed as the horses and saying all horses run at horse speed.
And all I am saying is that the giant drug pumped up sloth running about the same speed as the horses, is not a horse.

The titan Juicer text defines what it means when it said 'consided to be SNPS' as to how much they can carry and lift and what it means when it said 'Is SNPS' by presenting a table defining how much damage different the PS scores of TJs would do. But only after saying that the are NOT SN and saying that their str was lifted through the drug cocktail tech to be equivalent to what SN beings had. In Critical reading the things later in a text are always subject to what was already presented. In this case What is said in the whole, is that TJ's PS is equal to But is not SNPS.

Again, if you can't understand this analogy about what the text says...I give up trying to correct your incorrect understanding of canon.

[dreicunan]

@drewkitty: In critical reading, "This strength is supernatural" means just what it says. The simple fact is that what you claim supports your "only certain types of supernatural PS get to be supernatural PS" argument undermines it. A mutant with supernatural PS is NOT supernatural in nature. They still do full damage to vampires because anyone with supernatural PS does damage to vampires regardless of the source. You think it matters that the horse is the one doing the running, but what matters is that one runs as fast as a horse.

That damage table isn't just for Titan Juicers; it is for EVERYONE with supernatural strength (hence why later entries in the same book for Juicers with Supernatural PS refer the reader back to the Titan Juicer). In critical reading, getting the full context is rather important to determining the meaning of a passage.

Titan Juicers have Supernatural PS. Anyone with Supernatural PS does full damage to vampires with their hand to hand attacks. Therefore, Titan Juicers do full damage to vampires with their hand to hand attacks. That is canon. Preventing someone with supernatural PS from doing damage to vampires is a house rule, and - as people on this board are fond of promoting in their signatures - needs to be listed as such.

[13eowulf]

@ 13
The text is clear that only mortals with the SNPS super ability can harm vamps with their hand to hand attacks. Leaving off the 'super ability' part means you are going off what the text said.
In the HU lexicon, what are commonly known as super powers, are specificly named 'Super Abilities'. And that in the HU text they list the minor powers as "minor super abilities" major powers as "majore super abilities". So maybe you are in need of some reading. Since the relevent text does say the 'SNPS super ability"

Any mortal that possesses SNPS and remains a mortal has the super ability of SNPS. There really is no other option available.
In addition we are talking Rifts, not HU, the phrase encompasses a lot more in Rifts.
Further under ability #2 of the Titan Juicer it explicitly states that the P.S. Titan Juicer is Supernatural P.S., with no caveat or modifier.
This is known as clarifying text, as it is subsequent to the earlier phrase.
My reading is just fine.

[Blue_Lion]

@ KC That the quoted text say that they do not have SNPS is Exactly what it says. So I don't know how any other meaning could be see in those words.

I will try to simplify things and make a comparisons so people can understand the of the text being talked about.

A railgun that does 2d6 MD is only equivlant to a particle beam that does 2d6 MD. But That does not make the railgun damage a vamp like a particle does. (i.e: the railgun being a TJ and the Part. Beam being SN/CoM beings or a mortal with the SUPER POWER of SNPS. In how they can do equivalent damage to mundane stuff but when talking about Vamps one does NO DAMGE and the other does damage the vamp.)
No I need to make it more blatent...
Would sub'ing in a firebolt pistol that does 2d6 MD for the Particle beam be blatent enough?

If the CS e-clip has 20 shots worth of charge and FSE-e-clip hold a 20 shot charge...they can be considered to hold the same charge...but they are not the same.

If the Power armor can lift the same amount as a godling, does not mean that the power armor's str SNPS.

If you don't understand how the TJs' str can be equal to SNPS but lack the mystical nature that allows the SN/COM and those with the SNPS super power to damage Vamps, then I give up trying to convince you how wrong you are. And I will just leave it that you don't understand it and move on.
-------------------
@ 13
The text is clear that only mortals with the SNPS super ability can harm vamps with their hand to hand attacks. Leaving off the 'super ability' part means you are going off what the text said.
In the HU lexicon, what are commonly known as super powers, are specificly named 'Super Abilities'. And that in the HU text they list the minor powers as "minor super abilities" major powers as "majore super abilities". So maybe you are in need of some reading. Since the relevent text does say the 'SNPS super ability"
--------------------
@ dre...
Since TJ's do not have have the SNPS that SN beings, COM beings do and do not have the SNPS super ability. Pointing out that CoM that have SNPS do the same as others with SNPS is like pointing out that all the horses run at horse speed when talking about a giant drug pumped up sloth running about the same speed as the horses and saying all horses run at horse speed.
And all I am saying is that the giant drug pumped up sloth running about the same speed as the horses, is not a horse.

The titan Juicer text defines what it means when it said 'consided to be SNPS' as to how much they can carry and lift and what it means when it said 'Is SNPS' by presenting a table defining how much damage different the PS scores of TJs would do. But only after saying that the are NOT SN and saying that their str was lifted through the drug cocktail tech to be equivalent to what SN beings had. In Critical reading the things later in a text are always subject to what was already presented. In this case What is said in the whole, is that TJ's PS is equal to But is not SNPS.

Again, if you can't understand this analogy about what the text says...I give up trying to correct your incorrect understanding of canon.

I am confused when the book state the Titan juicer not have SN PS?
To me it clearly states the Titan juicer has SN PS.
PG 34 juicer uprising

2. Super Strength: Add 2D6+8 to P.S. attribute. Note: Minimum
P.S. is 30, if lower adjust to 30. This strength is supernatural, so the Titan inflicts damage as per the following table reprinted from Rifts® Conversion Book One.

That is the book clearly stating Titan juicers PS SN.(that is the mechanics of the TJ PS)

I see no text in my book that says it only considered to be PS when it comes to lift carry capacity under 2 two.

Here is what I see flavor text says it is the equivalent, endurance says it is considered to be and list scarring capacity, Super strength says it is.
The standard is the last official statement is cannon so the last statement is the Titan juicers PS is SN. This is clearly stated and does not create true conflict with earlier statements as SNPS is the equivalent of SNPS, SNPS is considered SNPS and SNPS is SNPS.

The book clearly says the TJ SNPS, no quote exists that counters that statement, your opinion on this is noted has been found to lack any real support.

When the writers define the Titans Juicers PS as SN in the part where they list the mechanics of the Juicers PS that makes it SN.

[dreicunan]

It also states that they have supernatural strength on page 34 again under 3. Super Speed: "Leaping distance is still good because of the Titan's supernatural strength."

[Swift-13]

Long time, no post, here, but I'm wondering if it's worth mincing words. Makes the issue more complicated to go with "like supernatural strength, but not *quite* supernatural strength." If a race or class has supernatural strength, then just go with supernatural strength; shouldn't matter if the being in question is supernatural in...err...nature, or not. Heck, there are regular ol' D-bees with supernatural strength (Hello, Grackletooth!).

Eh, not to mention, that got waaaay off topic. My money is on Psi-Stalkers not being able to track super-powered characters, unless they pack a noticeable amount of PPE or Psionics (for a Psi-Stalker to detect), or are supernatural in nature (most Immortals, for instance). I suppose if a GM wanted to introduce more super-powered characters in a Rifts game that the CS considers them a particular threat (as opposed to demons and mages running around all over the place), they'd develop a way to find them; aberrant DNA or somesuch.

[Killer Cyborg]

@ KC That the quoted text say that they do not have SNPS is Exactly what it says.

I have demonstrated this to be incorrect.
If you want to address my demonstration, pick the specific parts that you disagree with, quote them, and address them specifically.

To reiterate:
"Their physical strength is the equivalent to a supernatural being" means that the Titan Juicer PS (SNPS) is the equivalent to a supernatural being's PS (SNPS).
SNPS is the equivalent to SNPS.

"The fourth sentence says that they are not true SN beings," but being a true supernatural being is not a necessary requirement for having SNPS, so whether or not Titan Juicers are true supernatural beings is irrelevant to whether or not they have SNPS.

What IS relevant to the question of whether or not they have SNPS is the multiple instances of canon text stating that they do have SNPS.

I will try to simplify things and make a comparisons so people can understand the of the text being talked about.

A railgun that does 2d6 MD is only equivlant to a particle beam that does 2d6 MD. But That does not make the railgun damage a vamp like a particle does. (i.e: the railgun being a TJ and the Part. Beam being SN/CoM beings or a mortal with the SUPER POWER of SNPS. In how they can do equivalent damage to mundane stuff but when talking about Vamps one does NO DAMGE and the other does damage the vamp.)
No I need to make it more blatent...
Would sub'ing in a firebolt pistol that does 2d6 MD for the Particle beam be blatent enough?

The Titan Juicer's supernatural strength makes them "the equivalent" to a supernatural creature, in that both have supernatural PS.
Being a supernatural creature is not a requirement for damaging vampires; supernatural PS is.
Titan Juicers have supernatural PS, therefore they can harm vampires whether or not they are actually supernatural creatures.

If the Power armor can lift the same amount as a godling, does not mean that the power armor's str SNPS.

But if the armor is flat-out stated to have supernatural PS, the way that Titan Juicers are flat-out stated to have SNPS, then guess what?
That armor has SNPS.

If you don't understand how the TJs' str can be equal to SNPS but lack the mystical nature that allows the SN/COM and those with the SNPS super power to damage Vamps, then I give up trying to convince you how wrong you are. And I will just leave it that you don't understand it and move on.

It's not that we don't understand how a Titan Juicer's strength could be the equal to supernatural PS.
It's not that we don't understand how Titan Juicers could lack a mystic nature.

It is this:
1. Titan Juicers are flat-out stated to have SNPS.
2. A mystic nature is never once listed as an official requirement for SNPS harming vampires. That seems to be something that you have invented, but that does not exist in canon.
It's akin to if we were discussing how silver weapons can harm vampires, and you repeatedly insisted on claiming that only BLESSED silver weapons could harm vampires; you'd be introducing a restriction that doesn't exist in the books, and acting as if everybody else should agree to it.

Here are the facts:
Vampires are stated to be harmed by anybody with supernatural PS.
Titan Juicers are stated to have Supernatural PS.
Therefore, Titan Juicers can harm vampires according to canon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

@ 13
The text is clear that only mortals with the SNPS super ability can harm vamps with their hand to hand attacks. Leaving off the 'super ability' part means you are going off what the text said.
In the HU lexicon, what are commonly known as super powers, are specifically named 'Super Abilities'. And that in the HU text they list the minor powers as "minor super abilities" major powers as "major super abilities". So maybe you are in need of some reading. Since the relevant text does say the 'SNPS super ability"

Any mortal that possesses SNPS and remains a mortal has the super ability of SNPS. There really is no other option available.
In addition we are talking Rifts, not HU, the phrase encompasses a lot more in Rifts.
Further under ability #2 of the Titan Juicer it explicitly states that the P.S. Titan Juicer is Supernatural P.S., with no caveat or modifier.
This is known as clarifying text, as it is subsequent to the earlier phrase.
My reading is just fine.

Without using the TJ as an example...bring up another mortal that has true SNPS that is not a CoM and does not have the SNPS via the SNPS super ability or from some form of Magic or Psi power. Then your arguments that it is possible to have SNPS without being SN/COM or having the SNPS Super ability might be credible.
---
@ BL, I have already addressed the questions you asked in former posts.

When the class descriptive text said that their str is but equivalent to a SN being's Str what it is saying is that the TJ's Str is not the same str as that as SN beings. As such Everything written after that has to be seen through that lens. That the TJ's str. is not that same as SN being's type of str. Which is why the super endurance and super str. sections actually define what they mean when they say considered to be SNPS and is SNPS respectively. This instead of just saying that they have SNPS and leaving it at that, they had to filter what they meant through the lexicon of the game mechanics. Which, as you can see, has created a misunderstanding that caused this argument due to people incorporating the descriptive text (the "flavor text" ended with the 1st paragraph of the class listing) into their understanding of what the stats text said.

Nowhere in the text does it state that the TJs gain the mystical quality of SN&CoM beings and that of the SNPS Super ability that is the apparent reason for the SN&CoM and those with theSNPS super ability can damage rifts vampires.

As those who object me stating what is bluntly apparent to me have rejected the canon texts supporting what I see.

At the core idea of the titan juicer is that they are as mundane as the normal juicer, but it just writ stronger. Yes, their PS is equal to SNPS for game play...it is just Not SNPS because there is no mystical component to it.
I don't see why the others are complaining that I'm pointing out what the text means when talking about the TJ's fighting vampires.


I am guessing that players are so use to skipping over the class descriptive text to go right to the class stats that they totally ignore it, even though it contains the core ideas about what the class is meant to be. Which Tell everyone 'How to Look at the stats listings'.

[13eowulf]

@ 13
The text is clear that only mortals with the SNPS super ability can harm vamps with their hand to hand attacks. Leaving off the 'super ability' part means you are going off what the text said.
In the HU lexicon, what are commonly known as super powers, are specificly named 'Super Abilities'. And that in the HU text they list the minor powers as "minor super abilities" major powers as "majore super abilities". So maybe you are in need of some reading. Since the relevent text does say the 'SNPS super ability"

Any mortal that possesses SNPS and remains a mortal has the super ability of SNPS. There really is no other option available.
In addition we are talking Rifts, not HU, the phrase encompasses a lot more in Rifts.
Further under ability #2 of the Titan Juicer it explicitly states that the P.S. Titan Juicer is Supernatural P.S., with no caveat or modifier.
This is known as clarifying text, as it is subsequent to the earlier phrase.
My reading is just fine.

Without using the TJ as an example...bring up another mortal that has true SNPS that is not a CoM and does not have the SNPS via the SNPS super ability or from some form of Magic or Psi power. Then your arguments that it is possible to have SNPS without being SN/COM or having the SNPS Super ability might be credible.

Off the top of my head without looking at a book?
Lanotaur Hunters are explicitly mortal D-Bees with SNPS naturally occurring.
Arguably the Grackletooth are also mortal MDC beings with non magical SNPS not acquired via the supernatural.

I don't recall off the top of my head but don't T-Rexs have SNPS? They are neither SN nor CoM.

There is a power armour, non magical, in the thundercloud galaxy that grants SNPS.

Since you are fond of referring to nom rifts books for this, such as HU2, I will point at Splicers where SNPS can be achieved outside of CoM, SN beings, magic, psionics, or super powers.

For more examples I would have to look into some books, but I am busy at the moment.

But so far my position has plenty of credibility.

[Killer Cyborg]

When the class descriptive text said that their str is but equivalent to a SN being's Str what it is saying is that the TJ's Str is not the same str as that as SN beings.

First, get rid of that "but," since it's not in the books.
That leaves us with "the class descriptive text said that their str is but equivalent to a SN being's Str ."
"Equivalent" means "equal in value, amount, function, meaning, etc..
Which leaves us with:
The class descriptive text said that their strength is equal in value, amount, function, etc. to a supernatural being's strength.

Because Titan Juicers and supernatural beings have Supernatural Strength.

As such Everything written after that has to be seen through that lens. That the TJ's str. is not that same as SN being's type of str. Which is why the super endurance and super str. sections actually define what they mean when they say considered to be SNPS and is SNPS respectively.

Except that...
-Supernatural PS is considered to be supernatural PS, so that part doesn't negate the idea that Titan PS is supernatural PS.
-We have the direct statement "this strength is supernatural."
-We have the statement under Jumping that again states that their PS is supernatural.
-If "considered to be supernatural" meant "is not supernatural," then Mega- Juicers and Dragon Juicers would not have supernatural strength.

Nowhere in the text does it state that the TJs gain the mystical quality of SN&CoM beings and that of the SNPS Super ability that is the apparent reason for the SN&CoM and those with theSNPS super ability can damage rifts vampires.

Nowhere in the books does it a) mention that mystic quality that you keep talking about, or b) state that it is a requirement for harming vampires.
People have already pointed out that the books state that anybody with supernatural PS can harm vampires.

I don't see why the others are complaining that I'm pointing out what the text means when talking about the TJ's fighting vampires.

Because you're demonstrably wrong about what the text means, and you keep ignoring it when people point this out to you.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I didn't typo any buts.

Equivalent means 'to be close to equal in value, but is intrinsically different from in some fashion' to state out the meaning fully. There is a "not the same as" built into the meaning of the word Equivalent.

So that text says TJs str is equal to SNPS but is different from SNPS.

Yes I agree the VK states nicely who is able to hurt vamps. As I have pointed out to you.
That still does not make TJs able to hurt vamps because they do not have the SN SNPS of SN beings. Which is what that section was talking about.

Beside I was talking to Blue Lion not you, since he was sounding like he wants to understand the canon text in it's fullness.

[Killer Cyborg]

I didn't typo any buts.

Equivalent means 'to be close to equal in value, but is different from' to state out the meaning fully. There is a "not the same as" built into the meaning of the word Equivalent.

Not according to the dictionary.

Also, you keep avoiding the Mega-Juicer and Dragon Juicer issues, as well as quite a few other points.
I'm curious why, if you believe your argument is true.

Yes I agree the VK states nicely who is able to hurt vamps (before it got side impercise in the last sentence of that paragraph). As I have pointed out to you.
That still does not make TJs able to hurt vamps because they do not have fully SN SNPS.

Neither do people with super powers, but that doesn't matter because canon says NOTHING about the SNPS needing to be "fully supernatural."
That's something that you're inventing on your own, and projecting onto canon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

dictionaries do not always get the full meaning of words into them. Especially when the difference is within what could be call 'the margin of error'.

Sort of like how the Inuit's 15 words for snow are translated 'snow' without adding it what sort of snow they mean when they say their word for that type of snow.
Equivalent means that the whatever is equal to but is not what it is equal to. There, you are now informed. You now have no excuse now that you know.


(15..13..24 whatever....the idea was they have a lot of words for different types of snow)

[Killer Cyborg]

dictionaries do not always get the full meaning of words into them. Especially when the difference is within what could be call 'the margin of error'.

This is not such a case.
You're hinging your entire interpretation on placing your personal non-standard definition of a word over that of a dictionary, then interpreting the books according to that definition to the point of dismissing clear canon statements that Titan Juicers have Supernatural PS, and that anybody with supernatural PS can harm vampires.

Why bother, when it makes more sense to stick to both canon and the official definitions of words?

[dreicunan]

dictionaries do not always get the full meaning of words into them. Especially when the difference is within what could be call 'the margin of error'.

Sort of like how the Inuit's 15 words for snow are translated 'snow' without adding it what sort of snow they mean when they say their word for that type of snow.
Equivalent means that the whatever is equal to but is not what it is equal to. There, you are now informed. You now have no excuse now that you know.


(15..13..24 whatever....the idea was they have a lot of words for different types of snow)

Only by poor translators, and translation is not an issue here. Your invented need for a mystical source for those with supernatural strength is at issue to be able to damage vampires is at issue. It has clearly been shown to be in error, multiple times. The source of the strength is irrelevant; WB1r page 80 is quite clear that it is Supernatrual P.S. that matters. Look again at this statement: "Mortal beings with the super ability of Supernatural P.S. also do damage to vampires as per their Supernatural P.S." as per their Supernatural P.S. makes no sense as a part of that statement unless the relevant issue is Supernatural P.S. If the nature of the creature mattered, then we'd have clarifications about how mutants or experiments or eugenics heroes would have a note explaining that their Supernatural P.S. doesn't count for this purpose since it is the nature of the person possessing the Supernatural P.S. that matters. It isn't, hence the wording on page 80.

Wait a minute. Eugenics heroes! Let me look at PU2 quick, page 23. They can select "The equivalent of Supernatural Strength: Cost: 1.5 million. See the Major super ability on page 293 of HU2." (bold added) So there you go, a creature with "the equivalent" Supernatural Strength directing you to the ability. Or are you going to try to dismiss the significance of this and claim that a eugenics character with Supernatural P.S. doesn't really have Supernatural P.S. either? Because to me it sure seems damaging to your whole "equivalent to" isn't equivalent enough argument (which is moot anyways, but let's be thorough in demonstrating how wrong this line of argument is).

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yes, poor translation is what is the matter here. The people reading the words 'equivalent' and 'considered' are using meanings of the words that are ether wrong or do not fully encompass those words' meanings.

So pardon me if I take offense at those ignorants when they go about spouting the wrong meaning of those words because they are ignorant.

Warning: Don't get personal. Mack

Why the frack do you think I was trying to educate you about the more nuanced meaning of the word equivalent? Because I figured out the people I was talking @ were ignorant of the word's full meaning.

And there are you going again dreicunan being a one trick pony. The VKr text has nothing to do with defining what the TJ's str. type is. It is plain you still think it is the normal version of SNPS.
Critical reading is two things: seeing & understanding what the actual words used and what the Whole of the Text says.
What the whole of the text says is that while the TJ's str is up to the level of SNPS, the str. is not SNPS.

PU2: Bad thing for you is that the word equivalent is used there also. Which has the same meaning for the eugenic heroes and villeins as it does in the TJ text. That they cannot damage those beings that are immune to mundane damages.

[eliakon]

Splicers Earth, a world that is explicitly not magic, but that is directly compatible with Rifts (Page 13 of the Splicers book). I will note that no part of the conversion rules state anything about Warmounts being supernatural beings, nor that their strength changes when removed from the dimension, nor that Physical Strength changes in any way in this dimension.
Behemoth Warmount (page 110)
Physical Strength 1d4+36, Supernatural P.S.

Spoiler:

Dracos (page 113)
Physical Strength 1d6+44 Supernatural

Gore Hounds (page 116)
Physical Strength: 1d4+20, Supernatural

Grendel (118)
Physical Strength 1d4+36 (Supernatural P.S.)

Mega-Horses (122)
Physical Strength: 1d8+20 (Supernatural)

Leviathan (122)
Physical Strength: 1d4+30 (Supernatural P.S.)

Strider (124)
Physical Strength: 1d4+26 (Supernatural P.S.)

Zephyr (page 127)
Physical Strenght: 1d6+19 (Supernatural)

Thunderhead Galaxy
Kasaro (Page 64)
PS: 3d6+4 (Supernatural)
MDC: Kasaro are minor, mortal MDC beings

Trensik (A mortal silicon based race)
PS 3d6+10 (Supernatural)

We could keep going if you like...

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes, poor translation is what is the matter here. The people reading the words 'equivalent' and 'considered' are using meanings of the words that are ether wrong or do not fully encompass those words' meanings.

Agreed, but those people are you.

Canon tells us:
-Titan Juicers PS make them the equivalent of a supernatural creature.
-Titan Juicer strength is supernatural PS.
-Titan Juicers, Mega-Juicers, and Dragon Juicers all have strength that is considered to be supernatural PS.

As I said in my initial post, the word "equivalent" can carry the implication of "not actually," but since we are later told that the Titan Juicer PS is supernatural PS, we know that of all the possibly implications of the word "equivalent," "not actually" is NOT the correct one in this case.
Likewise, the phrase "considered to be" can sometimes carry the implication of "is not actually," but since we know that in two of the three instances where Juicers' PS is "considered" to be supernatural, it also actually IS supernatural, that implication is likewise incorrect.

Your argument seems to be that "equivalent" means "not actually," that the later flat-out statement that TJ PS is SNPS is incorrect or lying, and that "considered to be supernatural PS" means one thing when describing TJs, but means another thing (or means nothing) when describing Mega-Juicers and Dragon Juicers.

That is incredibly messy and convoluted compared to the alternative:
"Equivalent" means "equal to," as per the standard definition. When the book flat-out states that Titan Juicers have supernatural PS, it is correct. And the various juicers that are "considered" to have supernatural PS all actually have supernatural PS.

[Blue_Lion]

@ 13
The text is clear that only mortals with the SNPS super ability can harm vamps with their hand to hand attacks. Leaving off the 'super ability' part means you are going off what the text said.
In the HU lexicon, what are commonly known as super powers, are specifically named 'Super Abilities'. And that in the HU text they list the minor powers as "minor super abilities" major powers as "major super abilities". So maybe you are in need of some reading. Since the relevant text does say the 'SNPS super ability"

Any mortal that possesses SNPS and remains a mortal has the super ability of SNPS. There really is no other option available.
In addition we are talking Rifts, not HU, the phrase encompasses a lot more in Rifts.
Further under ability #2 of the Titan Juicer it explicitly states that the P.S. Titan Juicer is Supernatural P.S., with no caveat or modifier.
This is known as clarifying text, as it is subsequent to the earlier phrase.
My reading is just fine.

Without using the TJ as an example...bring up another mortal that has true SNPS that is not a CoM and does not have the SNPS via the SNPS super ability or from some form of Magic or Psi power. Then your arguments that it is possible to have SNPS without being SN/COM or having the SNPS Super ability might be credible.
---
@ BL, I have already addressed the questions you asked in former posts.

When the class descriptive text said that their str is but equivalent to a SN being's Str what it is saying is that the TJ's Str is not the same str as that as SN beings. As such Everything written after that has to be seen through that lens. That the TJ's str. is not that same as SN being's type of str. Which is why the super endurance and super str. sections actually define what they mean when they say considered to be SNPS and is SNPS respectively. This instead of just saying that they have SNPS and leaving it at that, they had to filter what they meant through the lexicon of the game mechanics. Which, as you can see, has created a misunderstanding that caused this argument due to people incorporating the descriptive text (the "flavor text" ended with the 1st paragraph of the class listing) into their understanding of what the stats text said.

Nowhere in the text does it state that the TJs gain the mystical quality of SN&CoM beings and that of the SNPS Super ability that is the apparent reason for the SN&CoM and those with theSNPS super ability can damage rifts vampires.

As those who object me stating what is bluntly apparent to me have rejected the canon texts supporting what I see.

At the core idea of the titan juicer is that they are as mundane as the normal juicer, but it just writ stronger. Yes, their PS is equal to SNPS for game play...it is just Not SNPS because there is no mystical component to it.
I don't see why the others are complaining that I'm pointing out what the text means when talking about the TJ's fighting vampires.


I am guessing that players are so use to skipping over the class descriptive text to go right to the class stats that they totally ignore it, even though it contains the core ideas about what the class is meant to be. Which Tell everyone 'How to Look at the stats listings'.

So your claim is that the flavor text over rides the rules that say they have SN and that they can not have it because they are not creatures of magic or SN. That you have as you pointed out already stated and I asked where the book says they do not have it as you claim it does. In other words I asked for something you have yet to provide and your replay with rehashing what you already put out without putting out a book quote as asked for that says there PS is not SN.

Lets take a look at your points.
They are not SN or creature of magic so can not have SNPS.
*It is not required to be SN or creature of magic to have SNPS, several CS mutants have SNPS, or the option to see loan star.*

I could go on the whole flavor text vs rules debate but that would be a waste of time.
Your idea that it earlier text limits what later text can directly say is found to be incorrect, later text can refine or change something to be clear.

So lets take a look at the flow.
1 In the description for the class(flavor text) it says they have the equivalent of SNPS but are not true SN creatures.
*SNPS can be called equivalent to SNPS so this does not mean they do not have it, you need text to define it more specifically to prove they lack as as equivalent can mean equal to and 1 is always the equivalent of 1.*
2 In the endurance section it states the PS is considered to be SN and list carry wieght.(you made the claim that the carry weight means it is only considered to be for carring earlier.
*I would think saying Considered to be for lift carry would be easier to write(specially if it was the writer being lazy as you have implied) as it does not clearly state that it is considered to be for lift carry intents only as written it can mean it is X for all intent. So this does not mean they do not have SNPS.*
3 Under the subheading Super strength it clearly says they have SNPS.
*No book statement has been provided that has to mean they do not have SNPS so as written they have SNPS. That is RaW, that is cannon unless something is written later that clearly can only mean they do not have it they have it like it clearly says they do.

So again do you have any quote that clearly says they do not have SNPS as I have provided a direct book quote that says they have SNPS?

Looking a the definition of Equivalent as an adjudicative it would appear the TJ PS is equal in value, function meaning to SNPS. Or the flavor text says the TJ PS functions as SNPS even though they are not a SN creature.(wow a simple define X totally undermines your whole stance.)

e·quiv·a·lent
əˈkwiv(ə)lənt/
adjective
adjective: equivalent
1.equal in value, amount, function, meaning, etc."one unit is equivalent to one glass of wine" synonyms: equal, identical, same; More
similar, comparable, corresponding, analogous, homologous, commensurate, parallel, synonymous; approximate, near "a degree or equivalent qualification" having the same or a similar effect as. "some regulations are equivalent to censorship"
Mathematics belonging to the same equivalence class.
noun
noun: equivalent; plural noun: equivalents
1. a person or thing that is equal to or corresponds with another in value, amount, function, meaning, etc.
"the French equivalent of the FBI"

But hey Lets see what Merriam Webster says.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/equivalent

Definition of equivalent
1 :equal in force, amount, or value;
also :equal in area or volume but not superposable a square equivalent to a triangle
2 a :like in signification or import
b :having logical equivalence equivalent statements
3 :corresponding or virtually identical especially in effect or function
4 obsolete :equal in might or authority
5 :having the same chemical combining capacity equivalent quantities of two elements
6 a :having the same solution set equivalent equations
b :capable of being placed in one-to-one correspondence equivalent sets
c :related by an equivalence relation

Looking at those it does seam that the titan PS is equal in value or virtually identical in effect or function to SNPS. Or is alike in significance to SNPS. Or obsolete meaning euqual in might to SNPS(whole outdated it is a direct implications to how it is used.)

5 does seam unrelated, 6 seams a math term and may be unrelated.
1 for volume do to nature is unrelated so the also is unrelated.

3 to me seams the most relevant to this debate Virtually identical in function to SNPS. So it works just like SNPS.

Simple nothing in the meaning of equivalent as related means the TJ PS can not be considered for all practical intent and use to be SNPS as the book clearly states it is under power 2 Super strength.

[Mack]

Folks,

This debate has reached an unproductive impasse. Please contribute something NEW or just allow the discussion to end. Otherwise this topic will be locked.

[drewkitty ~..~]

TO BL

What I said was that the Descriptive Text is to be included when considering what the stats talk about.
Since the blatant ""Flavor Text" STOPS with the end of the 1st paragraph of the class text, the rest of the class text is the Descriptive text since it has relevant information in it.
Breakdown of the class text:
1st Para.: total flavor text saying where and research description.
2nd Para: a little flavor but it does tell us that there was no 'Mystical' enhancement.
3rd para: describes what changes happen to the TJ subject. Included in this is stating that their Str. is while equal to SNPS that it is Not SNPS by saying that the TJs are Not SN. Alone, with this, it says that their bodies do not gain SN qualities because they still are mundane.
4th Para: deals with the TJ's life span.

Looking at the definitions you posted, the wording of text says it is using: from the 1st quote this definition: equal in amount, function, and these synonyms: similar, comparable, corresponding, parallel, and from Webster's the text wording chose: Equal to amount.

Spoiler:

Yes, how you phrase the words does choose which nuance the word means. How does the text say this you might ask. When the writer chose to say that TJ's are not SN.
-Which does make CJC seam more cognizant of whys behind what it meant to have SNPS, the PS of SN beings. I only use seam because I only have his writing to go off of.

Stats overview
S. End: confirms that what is stated in the class text that they are not SN (IOW: mundane) by listing their DC as HP/SDC. And then telling us that while not SNPS their lifting and carrying abilities are equal to (1st ed) SNPS lift/carry limits. They say this by actually defining what those limits are.


S str: tells us the bonus to the PS score and defines their ability to damage equal to that of similar SNPS scores by literally defining them by reposting the same chart used by SNPS from RCB1o. (o: original) Yes, there is some drift from the ""equal to but different"" from the 1st two times their str was described. But it is inconsequential because of the subject matter is limited to what damages are normally done.)

So that taken as a Whole means TJs str is equal to but different from SNPS because it is a mundane equivalent.

Now take that the apparent reason written into the KVr test WHY the SN, CoM, and those with the SNPS super ability can do damage to vamps is because of their mystical qualities.

Now taking that TJ's are mundane and that the reason that beings with SNPS do damage to vamps because of their mystical qualities. The only conclusion that is possible is that TJs with no mystical qualities attached to them cannot hurt those beings impervious to mundane harm. Which include, but not limited to, Traditional Vampires and Were-people.

This also circles back to confirm that TJ's do not have SNPS, but only a mundane equivalent of SNPS.

Which, when quickly put is "TJ's don't have SNPS". Which is what everyone else seams to object to even after it has been explained the reasons Why it is true. Even if it could be more nuancely said.
----
BL said:"Virtually identical in function to SNPS. So it works just like SNPS."
I have not objections to this statement, because it is another way of saying 'Equal to, but not SNPS' or 'All but SNPS' or 'functionally SNPS without the SN/mystical qualities of SNPS'. There are several other riffs on the them that could be made.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

TO BL

What I said was that the Descriptive Text is to be included when considering what the stats talk about.
Since the blatant ""Flavor Text" STOPS with the end of the 1st paragraph of the class text, the rest of the class text is the Descriptive text since it has relevant information in it.
Breakdown of the class text:
1st Para.: total flavor text saying where and research description.
2nd Para: a little flavor but it does tell us that there was no 'Mystical' enhancement.
3rd para: describes what changes happen to the TJ subject. Included in this is stating that their Str. is while equal to SNPS that it is Not SNPS by saying that the TJs are Not SN. Alone, with this, it says that their bodies do not gain SN qualities because they still are mundane.
4th Para: deals with the TJ's life span.

Looking at the definitions you posted, the wording of text says it is using: from the 1st quote this definition: equal in amount, function, and these synonyms: similar, comparable, corresponding, parallel, and from Webster's the text wording chose: Equal to amount.

Spoiler:

Yes, how you phrase the words does choose which nuance the word means. How does the text say this you might ask. When the writer chose to say that TJ's are not SN.
-Which does make CJC seam more cognizant of whys behind what it meant to have SNPS, the PS of SN beings. I only use seam because I only have his writing to go off of.

Stats overview
S. End: confirms that what is stated in the class text that they are not SN (IOW: mundane) by listing their DC as HP/SDC. And then telling us that while not SNPS their lifting and carrying abilities are equal to (1st ed) SNPS lift/carry limits. They say this by actually defining what those limits are.


S str: tells us the bonus to the PS score and defines their ability to damage equal to that of similar SNPS scores by literally defining them by reposting the same chart used by SNPS from RCB1o. (o: original) Yes, there is some drift from the ""equal to but different"" from the 1st two times their str was described. But it is inconsequential because of the subject matter is limited to what damages are normally done.)

So that taken as a Whole means TJs str is equal to but different from SNPS because it is a mundane equivalent.

Now take that the apparent reason written into the KVr test WHY the SN, CoM, and those with the SNPS super ability can do damage to vamps is because of their mystical qualities.

Now taking that TJ's are mundane and that the reason that beings with SNPS do damage to vamps because of their mystical qualities. The only conclusion that is possible is that TJs with no mystical qualities attached to them cannot hurt those beings impervious to mundane harm. Which include, but not limited to, Traditional Vampires and Were-people.

This also circles back to confirm that TJ's do not have SNPS, but only a mundane equivalent of SNPS.

Which, when quickly put is "TJ's don't have SNPS". Which is what everyone else seams to object to even after it has been explained the reasons Why it is true. Even if it could be more nuancely said.
----
BL said:"Virtually identical in function to SNPS. So it works just like SNPS."
I have not objections to this statement, because it is another way of saying 'Equal to, but not SNPS' or 'All but SNPS' or 'functionally SNPS without the SN/mystical qualities of SNPS'. There are several other riffs on the them that could be made.

So you couldn't even listen to the mod.

Huh.

However, your entire wall of text is rendered moot by the following:

2. Super Strength: Add 2D6+8 to P.S. attribute. Note: Minimum
P.S. is 30, if lower adjust to 30. This strength is supernatural,
so the Titan inflicts damage as per the following table
reprinted from Rifts® Conversion Book One.

Bolded emphasis mine.

We're done here. That is an unequivocal statement. This. Strength. IS. Supernatural.

Period. End. Done.

It cant be debated. It IS. Period.

VKr page 80 also states unequivocally that ANYONE with Supernatural PS can harm vampires. Period. End. Done. There is no requirement for the thing/creature/whatever to be supernatural at all.

Supernatural Strength? Yes? Hurts Vampires. Period.

Lock away.

[Killer Cyborg]

Canon states that Titan Juicers have Supernatural Strenght.
Canon states that anybody with Supernatural Strength can harm vampires.
Ergo, Titan Juicers can harm vampires.

End of story.

[The Beast]

I once lived in a cannon state, but then I had to move because the rounds started flying over my house.

[eliakon]

Okay here is an interesting thought on the subject...
RUE page 286 implies that Supernatural PS works by bending the laws of physics via supernatural power. Fair enough...

Does that mean that anything that is using Supernatural PS is also bending the laws of physics supernaturally?
This would neatly explain how they can hurt vampires even if they are a juicer, or a robot, or whatever.
It then doesn't matter the source of the strength anymore, just the actual strength itself or more specifically the reality warping inherent in the strength.

This would also imply that you might actually be able to detect things like Dogboys/D-Bee's/War Mounts/Power Armor/Whatever with Supernatural PS with something like a psi-stalker because it would 'ping' as being supernatural, if only weakly (possibly providing a penalty to detect or something)

Like I said its just a thought. (it is also as Mack requested something new but relevant)