Pay me not in gold - Rifts and ecomics in roleplaying

[Shark_Force]

if you want to have enough money for the fights that matter, my advice is to not get into fights that don't matter if you can at all help it, unless you can set up a reliable overwhelming advantage. 4 of you against 40 of them is just asking for trouble, so don't pick that fight, pick a fight where they would have to be crazy to fight you. or, better yet, get money from something other than fighting. find someone else's wreckage (from a fight, from a crash, from a sunken ship, whatever), and salvage that. find something on your character sheet that doesn't involve you probably needing 50,000 credits worth of repairs or replacements (or more) to make money, and use that.

Much like in real life.

oh, absolutely.

that's my main perspective on the costs, as i believe i've mentioned elsewhere; they exist to disincentivize charging in and shooting everything without thinking. much like the experience point system, actually. you get 25-50 experience for fighting a minor menace. you gain 50-100 for avoiding a fight, 25-100 for coming up with clever ideas (whether they work or not), 50-100 for acts of mercy or compassion, etc... and *zero* points for completely unnecessary fights, including fights for selfish reasons (though if you're playing a greedy or otherwise selfish person, you *may* get experience points for acting in character).

i really don't think rifts (or any palladium RPG) is intended to be a game where you see a dozen orcs and try to kill them because they're there. though of course, i didn't necessarily grasp that when i first encountered the system (nor do i think my GM did either)... most of my initial experience with the setting consisted of repeated combat encounters. it should surprise nobody that in such a game, various magical or psionic characters, all with access to regenerating sources of MDC, were the standard for us

[eliakon]

if you want to have enough money for the fights that matter, my advice is to not get into fights that don't matter if you can at all help it, unless you can set up a reliable overwhelming advantage. 4 of you against 40 of them is just asking for trouble, so don't pick that fight, pick a fight where they would have to be crazy to fight you. or, better yet, get money from something other than fighting. find someone else's wreckage (from a fight, from a crash, from a sunken ship, whatever), and salvage that. find something on your character sheet that doesn't involve you probably needing 50,000 credits worth of repairs or replacements (or more) to make money, and use that.

Much like in real life.

oh, absolutely.

that's my main perspective on the costs, as i believe i've mentioned elsewhere; they exist to disincentivize charging in and shooting everything without thinking. much like the experience point system, actually. you get 25-50 experience for fighting a minor menace. you gain 50-100 for avoiding a fight, 25-100 for coming up with clever ideas (whether they work or not), 50-100 for acts of mercy or compassion, etc... and *zero* points for completely unnecessary fights, including fights for selfish reasons (though if you're playing a greedy or otherwise selfish person, you *may* get experience points for acting in character).

i really don't think rifts (or any palladium RPG) is intended to be a game where you see a dozen orcs and try to kill them because they're there. though of course, i didn't necessarily grasp that when i first encountered the system (nor do i think my GM did either)... most of my initial experience with the setting consisted of repeated combat encounters. it should surprise nobody that in such a game, various magical or psionic characters, all with access to regenerating sources of MDC, were the standard for us

^So much this^
Combat isn't supposed to be the point in Palladium.
It bills itself as "A thinking mans game" for a reason, a person can agree or disagree with that description but the result is still the same... that like it or not, its designed to be harsh on combat oriented groups and basically make those that choose that to be their medium of expression suffer for their art.

[Blue_Lion]

Personally I think new style CS gear should only be for CS so on CS 2G and my home brewed 3g prototypes I added a hidden remote activated tracking device so the CS can send kill teams to recover missing gear. Completely house ruled but it means New style CS gear is not on the market.(and lets face it I can totally see the CS doing this after so much of there gear being in hostile hands.)

(I would point out according to the Hook line and sinkers in CWC some one that attack small CS outpost to steal gear as that was one of the adventure ideas. So the idea of targeting CS for there gear is on the books. But typically if you pick a mission with a high chance of salvage and pay you make more than just salvage alone so why settle for 1 pay day when you can have 2.)

[dragonfett]

Even with trackers in the new CS gear, I would figure some would eventually wind up in the hands of the Black Market without the trackers (or at least the signal hijacked by the BM so only they can track the equipment). It would cost way more (unless the signal was hijacked), but I could still see it being available.

[Blue_Lion]

Even with trackers in the new CS gear, I would figure some would eventually wind up in the hands of the Black Market without the trackers (or at least the signal hijacked by the BM so only they can track the equipment). It would cost way more (unless the signal was hijacked), but I could still see it being available.

After a while maybe but allot less often if only special retrieval units know about it. The trackers are hidden in my games. Sure some might make it to the black market but when vs kill teams show up the first few times you steal some you stay away.

Not sure what you mean by hacking they receive an encrypted signal and turn no more to the interface. You would need to disable not hack.

[dragonfett]

I'm thinking of the fact that the BM is just as likely to leave the trackers installed and activated, only sending the signal to them instead of the CS.

[eliakon]

Even with trackers in the new CS gear, I would figure some would eventually wind up in the hands of the Black Market without the trackers (or at least the signal hijacked by the BM so only they can track the equipment). It would cost way more (unless the signal was hijacked), but I could still see it being available.

After a while maybe but allot less often if only special retrieval units know about it. The trackers are hidden in my games. Sure some might make it to the black market but when vs kill teams show up the first few times you steal some you stay away.

Not sure what you mean by hacking they receive an encrypted signal and turn no more to the interface. You would need to disable not hack.

Wouldn't telemechanics detect this instantly (unless they have access to Archies special psionicly undetectable technology)

[dragonfett]

Even with trackers in the new CS gear, I would figure some would eventually wind up in the hands of the Black Market without the trackers (or at least the signal hijacked by the BM so only they can track the equipment). It would cost way more (unless the signal was hijacked), but I could still see it being available.

After a while maybe but allot less often if only special retrieval units know about it. The trackers are hidden in my games. Sure some might make it to the black market but when vs kill teams show up the first few times you steal some you stay away.

Not sure what you mean by hacking they receive an encrypted signal and turn no more to the interface. You would need to disable not hack.

Wouldn't telemechanics detect this instantly (unless they have access to Archies special psionicly undetectable technology)

Yeah, just like the normal CS trackers. But honestly, just how common is the psychic power of Telemechanics? And even if someone had it, who would think to use it on a seemingly normal set of armor?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Even with trackers in the new CS gear, I would figure some would eventually wind up in the hands of the Black Market without the trackers (or at least the signal hijacked by the BM so only they can track the equipment). It would cost way more (unless the signal was hijacked), but I could still see it being available.

After a while maybe but allot less often if only special retrieval units know about it. The trackers are hidden in my games. Sure some might make it to the black market but when vs kill teams show up the first few times you steal some you stay away.

Not sure what you mean by hacking they receive an encrypted signal and turn no more to the interface. You would need to disable not hack.

Wouldn't telemechanics detect this instantly (unless they have access to Archies special psionicly undetectable technology)

Yeah, just like the normal CS trackers. But honestly, just how common is the psychic power of Telemechanics? And even if someone had it, who would think to use it on a seemingly normal set of armor?

25% or so of all Operators have it, and every TW has it. Just off the top of my head. Its also a good enough power that pretty much any Super psychic would probably pick it up, but thats a ‘PC’ thing, so NPCs... who knows. Still... While not common, its also not rare.

[dragonfett]

And like I said, who would think to use it on a seemingly normal set of armor that has only standard features and few (if any) moving parts?

[dreicunan]

And like I said, who would think to use it on a seemingly normal set of armor that has only standard features and few (if any) moving parts?

Someone who likes to make sure that they know everything they can about the gear that they use. Someone who enjoys using their psychic powers to link with technology on a regular basis. Someone who likes to verify that the gear that they buy is in good working order.

Between operators and TWs alone there is no way that the existence of the tracking chips would stay secret for very long.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Between operators and TWs alone there is no way that the existence of the tracking chips would stay secret for very long.

Thats pretty much what i was thinking.

My TW is going to use Telemechanics on any suit of Armor he's thinking about modding, at the very least, and probably any suit that is "new" (I.E. i haven't owned or operated that type before, or examined it) just out of "how does it work?" curiosity - even if it isn't strictly speaking his armor.

If JoeBoxer the Juicer is like "why are you using your mojo on that shiny new armor i ripped off from the CS" my answer is likely to be ... "well if you ever get it damaged and want me to fix it, i need to be familiar with it".

[Shark_Force]

frankly, it wouldn't remain a secret for long even if nobody used telemechanics.

how long do you really think it's going to take to go from people noticing the CS can track everyone that has their gear to figuring out that CS gear has some kind of tracking device?

how long do you think it's going to take before one of the soldiers that tracks people down accidentally mentions something about how it's done?

it might work for a while. the first time they tried it. which was probably decades ago. it probably still does, to some extent (if you ambush a patrol right next to a CS base, expect the CS to follow any transponders you haven't had time to disable).

and frankly, the black market tracking their clients would likely mean a massive hit to their reputation which i doubt they'd be willing to take. once they've sold them, i don't think they particularly care about them any more. probably the first thing they do is disable any tracking devices that aren't already disabled. or even just physically remove them. they might put tracking devices on any crates of stuff they're shipping, or on vehicles they use to transport their illegal stuff, but actually tracking a suit of armour they sold? why? what would the black market hope to gain that wouldn't have far worse drawbacks in the long run?

[dragonfett]

The Black Market not wanting to take a hit their reputation? **** like that IS their reputation! We're talking about the same entities(because remember, the Black Market is general term for the activities of multiple organizations) who will gladly cut the cybernetic systems out of people currently using them.

[Eagle]

Personally I think new style CS gear should only be for CS so on CS 2G and my home brewed 3g prototypes I added a hidden remote activated tracking device so the CS can send kill teams to recover missing gear. Completely house ruled but it means New style CS gear is not on the market.(and lets face it I can totally see the CS doing this after so much of there gear being in hostile hands.)

(I would point out according to the Hook line and sinkers in CWC some one that attack small CS outpost to steal gear as that was one of the adventure ideas. So the idea of targeting CS for there gear is on the books. But typically if you pick a mission with a high chance of salvage and pay you make more than just salvage alone so why settle for 1 pay day when you can have 2.)

It's broadcasting on some sort of frequency, right? What is preventing the people who stole it from picking up that transmission? I know that not every Joe Bandit is going to have gear to do that, but the Federation of Magic will.

Seems like a great way to lure the Coalition into a trap.

[Eagle]

And like I said, who would think to use it on a seemingly normal set of armor that has only standard features and few (if any) moving parts?

They may not use it on any old set of armor. But they're going to use it on captured CS vehicles. And they're like "hey, a tracking device". And then they use it on the captured CS SAMAS suit. And they're like "hey, a tracking device". And then, on a hunch, somebody uses it on that CS laser rifle. And they're like "seriously, a tracking device?" At that point, you use telemechanics on every piece of equipment you pick up. E-clips, boxes of food, anything.

Edit: Oh, and if you figure out what frequency they're tracking on? Now you've got an instant CS troops detector. You know exactly where all their forces are, all the time.

Edit edit: You don't even really have to figure out that much. Just steal some armor, wait for the inevitable kill squad to show up, ambush them, and steal the portable tracking scanner that they brought with them. Now sell it to the Federation of Magic and be rich.

[Killer Cyborg]

Telemechanics would let you find a tracking device on a vehicle if the tracking device is built into it, i.e., would show up on the blueprints/schematics.
If it's just stuck randomly inside part of the vehicle, it wouldn't help.

[Blue_Lion]

And like I said, who would think to use it on a seemingly normal set of armor that has only standard features and few (if any) moving parts?

They may not use it on any old set of armor. But they're going to use it on captured CS vehicles. And they're like "hey, a tracking device". And then they use it on the captured CS SAMAS suit. And they're like "hey, a tracking device". And then, on a hunch, somebody uses it on that CS laser rifle. And they're like "seriously, a tracking device?" At that point, you use telemechanics on every piece of equipment you pick up. E-clips, boxes of food, anything.

Edit: Oh, and if you figure out what frequency they're tracking on? Now you've got an instant CS troops detector. You know exactly where all their forces are, all the time.

Edit edit: You don't even really have to figure out that much. Just steal some armor, wait for the inevitable kill squad to show up, ambush them, and steal the portable tracking scanner that they brought with them. Now sell it to the Federation of Magic and be rich.

No you would not detect them all the time. Remember the part about remote activation. The cs has to turn on the tracker. Such as if some one or something was noticed missing.

If you figured out the vs activation code for a specific peace of gear you could turn it on to find it.

[The Beast]

Personally I think new style CS gear should only be for CS so on CS 2G and my home brewed 3g prototypes I added a hidden remote activated tracking device so the CS can send kill teams to recover missing gear. Completely house ruled but it means New style CS gear is not on the market.(and lets face it I can totally see the CS doing this after so much of there gear being in hostile hands.)

(I would point out according to the Hook line and sinkers in CWC some one that attack small CS outpost to steal gear as that was one of the adventure ideas. So the idea of targeting CS for there gear is on the books. But typically if you pick a mission with a high chance of salvage and pay you make more than just salvage alone so why settle for 1 pay day when you can have 2.)

It's broadcasting on some sort of frequency, right? What is preventing the people who stole it from picking up that transmission? I know that not every Joe Bandit is going to have gear to do that, but the Federation of Magic will.

Seems like a great way to lure the Coalition into a trap.

How would a magic-based society have gear to detect radio transmissions? Magic is superior, remember?

[Blue_Lion]

Personally I think new style CS gear should only be for CS so on CS 2G and my home brewed 3g prototypes I added a hidden remote activated tracking device so the CS can send kill teams to recover missing gear. Completely house ruled but it means New style CS gear is not on the market.(and lets face it I can totally see the CS doing this after so much of there gear being in hostile hands.)

(I would point out according to the Hook line and sinkers in CWC some one that attack small CS outpost to steal gear as that was one of the adventure ideas. So the idea of targeting CS for there gear is on the books. But typically if you pick a mission with a high chance of salvage and pay you make more than just salvage alone so why settle for 1 pay day when you can have 2.)

It's broadcasting on some sort of frequency, right? What is preventing the people who stole it from picking up that transmission? I know that not every Joe Bandit is going to have gear to do that, but the Federation of Magic will.

Seems like a great way to lure the Coalition into a trap.

How would a magic-based society have gear to detect radio transmissions? Magic is superior, remember?

TW or the fact that most magic based groups also use tech.

I think his point was military forces would have access to RF scanning equipment. Typicaly as part off a electronic as warfare team. Small time bandits and even many squad or platoons would likely lack the means.

I should point out no anti theft is 100% effective and a well eqiped team that was aware of it could defeat it. But the fact it is there would not be common knowledge after all you can't Google it and if all you know is group x died trying to steal from the cs you would not have all the info to figure out how or when the cs killed them.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Telemechanics would let you find a tracking device on a vehicle if the tracking device is built into it, i.e., would show up on the blueprints/schematics.
If it's just stuck randomly inside part of the vehicle, it wouldn't help.

Which is how Archie gets away with it, i'd imagine.

Now, Archie's spyware/spyhardware also doesn't broadcast - it is only accessed when the stuff goes in for repairs at a Titan dealer/repair center.

If the armor/vehicle is giving off active transmissions, anyone running a Portable Scan Dihlator will see them (or any similar scanning device that picks up active emissions). They wont know what they are, necessarily, but theyll see active emissions.

The things could NOT be secret for long. its another example of the writers having no idea how things like that actually work.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

There's also the matter of range. Something small enough to remain hidden inside a suit of body armor, even if it doesn't actively broadcast but just functions similar to those RFID anti-theft devices in stores, isn't going to have much range. The CS troops with the scanner would have to get within a few meters, maybe as much as 100 if you're really giving this the old "Tis Futar TECH!" treatment.

If it's actively transmitting, the range is going to be pretty short (or the bug larger, and thus easier to find) unless its also somehow tied in to the comm system of the armor, vehicle, whatever. And tying it in like that would make it easier to find. Not saying it would be easy, just easi-ER.

Unless, of course, you hand-wave all that away because plot and say that it's the future, they've got a lot better tracking devices, et cetera et cetera. Which is just as acceptable as a lot of other things that get handwaved, IMO.

[Shark_Force]

The Black Market not wanting to take a hit their reputation? **** like that IS their reputation! We're talking about the same entities(because remember, the Black Market is general term for the activities of multiple organizations) who will gladly cut the cybernetic systems out of people currently using them.

the black market buys cyberware of suspect origin, sure.

i'm not aware of anything that states they actually run the cybersnatcher gangs. and that's a pretty big difference. you might do business with someone who isn't going to be picky about buying something that happened to get stolen from you. you're gonna have problems if you're doing business with someone that is selling things to you and then deliberately targeting you for theft, or even appears to be, and putting tracking devices on their customers is going to lead to people suspecting that pretty quickly.

the black market has better ways of getting equipment than expensive and extremely risky fights. they're paying some clerk 2,000 credits to "misplace" a suit of body armour that they sell for 50,000 credits (though i'm sure there are other expenses along the way), where the clerk is taking most of the risk. they would need to be a special kind of stupid to jeopardize that low-risk high-reward payoff for an extremely high-risk option with a reward that is no better, and probably worse because they'll most likely be getting their hands on damaged equipment, the repair costs of which will come out of their profit margin as will the costs to repair their own gear that was damaged. unless of course they're bringing overwhelming force to persuade people to give up their gear without a fight, but then overwhelming force isn't exactly cheap either.

the black market buys and sells stuff illegally. you can be sure they're prepared to use violence when they feel it is necessary (ie to protect their assets), but if they wanted to make money from violence they would be mercenaries instead of merchants. jeopardizing their reputation as merchants would be stupid. now, if you happen to be the guy in charge of a factory that produces half a million energy rifles a year, and you buy something from them, then sure, they might be willing to take some risks to potentially get dirt on you, so long as it might lead to your instituting a more strict quality assurance program that leads to "disposal" of some number of perfectly functioning energy rifles every day, with disposal being handled by a small company specialized in that sort of thing, of course. but they probably won't settle for something as unlikely to get them blackmail material as a tracking device in your armour, and they will probably be way more proactive than just sitting around hoping you'll buy something from them.

[Blue_Lion]

Telemechanics would let you find a tracking device on a vehicle if the tracking device is built into it, i.e., would show up on the blueprints/schematics.
If it's just stuck randomly inside part of the vehicle, it wouldn't help.

Which is how Archie gets away with it, i'd imagine.

Now, Archie's spyware/spyhardware also doesn't broadcast - it is only accessed when the stuff goes in for repairs at a Titan dealer/repair center.

If the armor/vehicle is giving off active transmissions, anyone running a Portable Scan Dihlator will see them (or any similar scanning device that picks up active emissions). They wont know what they are, necessarily, but theyll see active emissions.

The things could NOT be secret for long. its another example of the writers having no idea how things like that actually work.

How common is it for people to just running those things? Typically you run things like that when you suspect a something may be transmitting. Also such devices only detect a certain range of the EM spectrum. Also a frequency hop feature common to military com's are hard to spot as the frequency is not a constant spike.

Also think about this when the black market learns of it are the going to want random people bringing possibly transmitting CS gear to their shops? Would it not be safer for them to announce they are not buying cs gear, and once they start putting out that message other venders would fallow suit.

If customer base learns of it do you really want to take the word of a random criminal vender it is safe, simple running a sensor will not tell you if the CS has not activated it yet. Knowledge of it leads to tainted brand recoazition reducing demand.

Before the feature is known about the cs can kill thiefs after it is known demand and merchants for cs gear would go down.

[Blue_Lion]

There's also the matter of range. Something small enough to remain hidden inside a suit of body armor, even if it doesn't actively broadcast but just functions similar to those RFID anti-theft devices in stores, isn't going to have much range. The CS troops with the scanner would have to get within a few meters, maybe as much as 100 if you're really giving this the old "Tis Futar TECH!" treatment.

If it's actively transmitting, the range is going to be pretty short (or the bug larger, and thus easier to find) unless its also somehow tied in to the comm system of the armor, vehicle, whatever. And tying it in like that would make it easier to find. Not saying it would be easy, just easi-ER.

Unless, of course, you hand-wave all that away because plot and say that it's the future, they've got a lot better tracking devices, et cetera et cetera. Which is just as acceptable as a lot of other things that get handwaved, IMO.

You are thinking in terms of modern transmission tech. Rifts could easily have a small transmitter with range rated in miles not meters. It is not handwaving it is advanced tech. The reason we have to use larger tracking devices is mostly do to power storage, rifts can stir vast amount of power in small spaces. Atena can be quite small now and it may also be possible to use something in the device as a atena.

Odd that my house rule caused such a discusion hijacking this thread.

[Shark_Force]

if it's part of the suit, telemechanics will detect it. if not, eventually eletrokinesis will detect it as a separate source. and if neither of those detected it, other methods will (someone in the black market paying off a person who knows, or blackmailing them into revealing the secret, or people simply noticing that the CS suddenly got really good at tracking CS equipment, etc).

all it takes is one time where someone gets tracked, takes out their trackers, and says "hey, what's this device that seems to be displaying my location flawlessly" and there goes the secret. you might be able to hide them for a while. but not long-term.

[Blue_Lion]

if it's part of the suit, telemechanics will detect it. if not, eventually eletrokinesis will detect it as a separate source. and if neither of those detected it, other methods will (someone in the black market paying off a person who knows, or blackmailing them into revealing the secret, or people simply noticing that the CS suddenly got really good at tracking CS equipment, etc).

all it takes is one time where someone gets tracked, takes out their trackers, and says "hey, what's this device that seems to be displaying my location flawlessly" and there goes the secret. you might be able to hide them for a while. but not long-term.

It would take more than I time. There is no internet so information is passed word of mouth. Group a might know but that does not mean group b does.

Before it is known cs gets to send out kill teams. After it is known it still reduces theft do to tainted product recobision. In a world where not every one is literate do you want to take the word of a criminal that he deactivated it corectly?

Anti theft does not stop theft it just discorges it. A house with a alarm sign is less likely to be broken into than 1 without it. Make buying something from unknowns higher risk than a similar product from another group and market demand shifts from cs to ng.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

There's also the matter of range. Something small enough to remain hidden inside a suit of body armor, even if it doesn't actively broadcast but just functions similar to those RFID anti-theft devices in stores, isn't going to have much range. The CS troops with the scanner would have to get within a few meters, maybe as much as 100 if you're really giving this the old "Tis Futar TECH!" treatment.

If it's actively transmitting, the range is going to be pretty short (or the bug larger, and thus easier to find) unless its also somehow tied in to the comm system of the armor, vehicle, whatever. And tying it in like that would make it easier to find. Not saying it would be easy, just easi-ER.

Unless, of course, you hand-wave all that away because plot and say that it's the future, they've got a lot better tracking devices, et cetera et cetera. Which is just as acceptable as a lot of other things that get handwaved, IMO.

You are thinking in terms of modern transmission tech. Rifts could easily have a small transmitter with range rated in miles not meters. It is not handwaving it is advanced tech. The reason we have to use larger tracking devices is mostly do to power storage, rifts can stir vast amount of power in small spaces. Atena can be quite small now and it may also be possible to use something in the device as a atena.

Odd that my house rule caused such a discusion hijacking this thread.

It's not simply a matter of power. There is the method of transmission (digital, shortwave, etc) and how it's done (radio waves need some kind of antenna, which equals size). Unless you're handwaving it with some kind of dilitium crystal based hullabuloo or whatever. Computers and comm gear in general in this setting are larger and less advanced than their counterparts in, say, Shadowrun.

But like I already said, it's your game, if you want to have handwavium-based tracking devices, and it adds something fun and/or challenging to the game, good on you.

[Eagle]

There are a lot of problems with the idea. Chief among them is the idea that the CS has endless resources to chase after scavengers who steal their stuff.

I played in a superhero game once. Some of the players started asking about how banks would try and counter supervillains, what anti-theft procedures they would implement. Some of the guys proposed adding so many safeguards that banks would basically turn into D&D dungeons. "Well the guy might teleport, so the bank would fill the vault with knockout gas. And the guy might wear a gas mask, so they'd have motion detectors and automatic spikes that shoot up through the floor..." Then they started talking about how to protect ATMs from being robbed. Like reinforcing them with unobtainium and hidden lasers is feasible to do with machines that sit in your local 7-11 store.

The fact is, there really aren't that many supervillains who rob banks. The banks are insured out the ying-yang, and they just understand that every once in a while, some nut with a ray gun or superstrength might come in and run off with a few hundred grand. But for the average bank, it's so rare that they'd be hit that they just write it off as a cost of doing business.

The Coalition should probably operate the same way. They send hordes of soldiers out into the field to fight a life or death battle against monsters and wizards and demons and things like that. When their soldiers are killed, whatever gear they have gets salvaged by whoever happens to find it. They know that there's a thriving little market for used Coalition gear. They also know that the occasional dock worker gets bribed to leave a crate of mini-missiles sitting outside the warehouse. But it wouldn't be significant enough losses for them to expend all these resources chasing the stuff down. It's not that big a problem for them. Just eat your losses and don't worry about it.


The easiest answer is to have the Coalition broadcast a big threat. "If we see people using Coalition gear, we kill the man wearing it." Easier to just blast them when you happen to see them, rather than trying to hide secret transmitters and send out kill squads.

[Shark_Force]

if it's part of the suit, telemechanics will detect it. if not, eventually eletrokinesis will detect it as a separate source. and if neither of those detected it, other methods will (someone in the black market paying off a person who knows, or blackmailing them into revealing the secret, or people simply noticing that the CS suddenly got really good at tracking CS equipment, etc).

all it takes is one time where someone gets tracked, takes out their trackers, and says "hey, what's this device that seems to be displaying my location flawlessly" and there goes the secret. you might be able to hide them for a while. but not long-term.

It would take more than I time. There is no internet so information is passed word of mouth. Group a might know but that does not mean group b does.

Before it is known cs gets to send out kill teams. After it is known it still reduces theft do to tainted product recobision. In a world where not every one is literate do you want to take the word of a criminal that he deactivated it corectly?

Anti theft does not stop theft it just discorges it. A house with a alarm sign is less likely to be broken into than 1 without it. Make buying something from unknowns higher risk than a similar product from another group and market demand shifts from cs to ng.

reasonably long-range radios are cheap and common. once it's known, it will take very little time for that information to spread.

There are a lot of problems with the idea. Chief among them is the idea that the CS has endless resources to chase after scavengers who steal their stuff.

I played in a superhero game once. Some of the players started asking about how banks would try and counter supervillains, what anti-theft procedures they would implement. Some of the guys proposed adding so many safeguards that banks would basically turn into D&D dungeons. "Well the guy might teleport, so the bank would fill the vault with knockout gas. And the guy might wear a gas mask, so they'd have motion detectors and automatic spikes that shoot up through the floor..." Then they started talking about how to protect ATMs from being robbed. Like reinforcing them with unobtainium and hidden lasers is feasible to do with machines that sit in your local 7-11 store.

The fact is, there really aren't that many supervillains who rob banks. The banks are insured out the ying-yang, and they just understand that every once in a while, some nut with a ray gun or superstrength might come in and run off with a few hundred grand. But for the average bank, it's so rare that they'd be hit that they just write it off as a cost of doing business.

The Coalition should probably operate the same way. They send hordes of soldiers out into the field to fight a life or death battle against monsters and wizards and demons and things like that. When their soldiers are killed, whatever gear they have gets salvaged by whoever happens to find it. They know that there's a thriving little market for used Coalition gear. They also know that the occasional dock worker gets bribed to leave a crate of mini-missiles sitting outside the warehouse. But it wouldn't be significant enough losses for them to expend all these resources chasing the stuff down. It's not that big a problem for them. Just eat your losses and don't worry about it.


The easiest answer is to have the Coalition broadcast a big threat. "If we see people using Coalition gear, we kill the man wearing it." Easier to just blast them when you happen to see them, rather than trying to hide secret transmitters and send out kill squads.

well, the difference is that banks are stockpiling money, whereas the CS are stockpiling resources to go out and kill their enemies. the bank would need to decide to earn less of the thing it wants to be able to have crazy defenses, the CS doesn't have to worry about that; their millions of soldiers and missiles and robot vehicles and so on exist specifically to destroy their enemies, and people who kill their patrols and steal their stuff are definitely their enemies. so really, it makes perfect sense for the CS to track down and kill people who attack their patrols... if they can, of course. yes, when their soldiers are attacked and killed they can just use it for propaganda, but losing imaginary battles (which can still be used for propaganda purposes) doesn't cost nearly as much in the way of troops and equipment as losing real battles, and in any event winning those battles is still good for propaganda because you've already made the threat out to be bigger than it is, and now "against the odds", the coalition is prevailing.

but i'd also only expect trackers to work for a very short while. it's relatively easy to counter, and in any event, as i said, i very much doubt that the majority of CS gear gets onto the black market as the result of people bushwacking large patrols of heavil-armed combat-trained soldiers. in all likelihood, when that crate of mini-missiles gets left on the docks, the tracking devices have probably already been disabled (or just never installed in the first place), because the person on your side responsible for putting the trackers in has been bribed or otherwise subverted by the black market.

[Blue_Lion]

There are a lot of problems with the idea. Chief among them is the idea that the CS has endless resources to chase after scavengers who steal their stuff.

I played in a superhero game once. Some of the players started asking about how banks would try and counter supervillains, what anti-theft procedures they would implement. Some of the guys proposed adding so many safeguards that banks would basically turn into D&D dungeons. "Well the guy might teleport, so the bank would fill the vault with knockout gas. And the guy might wear a gas mask, so they'd have motion detectors and automatic spikes that shoot up through the floor..." Then they started talking about how to protect ATMs from being robbed. Like reinforcing them with unobtainium and hidden lasers is feasible to do with machines that sit in your local 7-11 store.

The fact is, there really aren't that many supervillains who rob banks. The banks are insured out the ying-yang, and they just understand that every once in a while, some nut with a ray gun or superstrength might come in and run off with a few hundred grand. But for the average bank, it's so rare that they'd be hit that they just write it off as a cost of doing business.

The Coalition should probably operate the same way. They send hordes of soldiers out into the field to fight a life or death battle against monsters and wizards and demons and things like that. When their soldiers are killed, whatever gear they have gets salvaged by whoever happens to find it. They know that there's a thriving little market for used Coalition gear. They also know that the occasional dock worker gets bribed to leave a crate of mini-missiles sitting outside the warehouse. But it wouldn't be significant enough losses for them to expend all these resources chasing the stuff down. It's not that big a problem for them. Just eat your losses and don't worry about it.


The easiest answer is to have the Coalition broadcast a big threat. "If we see people using Coalition gear, we kill the man wearing it." Easier to just blast them when you happen to see them, rather than trying to hide secret transmitters and send out kill squads.

It address two of the major tactical issues I see the CS having problems with.
Desertion and large forces using CS gear.
It also address small time bandits targeting them, and allows them to deal with scavenging enemies stealing there gear.

The CS does have resources to run down the bandits and they could use LRM fired from there super city locked on to the traking signal.
If you think the CS high command would not invest to deal with left and attacks on CS gear you have a low image of them.

What you are suggesting is do nothing to discourage people stealing from you. Lets use your example of banks they have taking several actions to stop/discourage theft from silent alarms under the counter, die packs, to sets of doors that act as a holding cell. But you want to say the CS should do nothing and just eat the losses.

I am not saying that this method will stop all theft but it will reduce it significantly and killing teams stealing your resources and attacking your troops is good thing for a military.

[Blue_Lion]

There's also the matter of range. Something small enough to remain hidden inside a suit of body armor, even if it doesn't actively broadcast but just functions similar to those RFID anti-theft devices in stores, isn't going to have much range. The CS troops with the scanner would have to get within a few meters, maybe as much as 100 if you're really giving this the old "Tis Futar TECH!" treatment.

If it's actively transmitting, the range is going to be pretty short (or the bug larger, and thus easier to find) unless its also somehow tied in to the comm system of the armor, vehicle, whatever. And tying it in like that would make it easier to find. Not saying it would be easy, just easi-ER.

Unless, of course, you hand-wave all that away because plot and say that it's the future, they've got a lot better tracking devices, et cetera et cetera. Which is just as acceptable as a lot of other things that get handwaved, IMO.

You are thinking in terms of modern transmission tech. Rifts could easily have a small transmitter with range rated in miles not meters. It is not handwaving it is advanced tech. The reason we have to use larger tracking devices is mostly do to power storage, rifts can stir vast amount of power in small spaces. Atena can be quite small now and it may also be possible to use something in the device as a atena.

Odd that my house rule caused such a discusion hijacking this thread.

It's not simply a matter of power. There is the method of transmission (digital, shortwave, etc) and how it's done (radio waves need some kind of antenna, which equals size). Unless you're handwaving it with some kind of dilitium crystal based hullabuloo or whatever. Computers and comm gear in general in this setting are larger and less advanced than their counterparts in, say, Shadowrun.

But like I already said, it's your game, if you want to have handwavium-based tracking devices, and it adds something fun and/or challenging to the game, good on you.

I am hand waving nothing. You are stuck on the thinking they have to work a certain way. That is untrue, (the problem with the computers in.

I did address method of transmission. We can make transmission transceivers with current tech 1.2 x 1 x .3 with a 3000 M range that is something that could be hidden behind the padding of armor.(see link) But you want to insist a group with nano tech and super alloys can not make a smaller better transmitter. And as I said they could use something already in the armor or device as antenna like how my cell phone uses head phones to pick up radio stations. The limit is in your imagination not in plausible ability of the CS. (Typically the main limiting range of most transmissions is signal strength how much power the antenna puts out it is the larger they make them larger to handle power, as well as power source, antennas have gotten allot smaller while keeping range and function.)

https://www.amazon.com/Wolfwhoop-W833-5 ... dpSrc=srch

Another transmitter with a coin for size reference whole unit no bigger than 1 dollar coin(1/3 the output of the first so shorter range but rifts can fix that). You are right they totally could not put something like that in armor and increase the output power because rifts lacks the ability to run insane power threw small things. Oh wait that is what every energy hand weapon does.

https://www.amazon.com/Wolfwhoop-adjust ... enna&psc=1

I do not believe rifts can have nano bots but can not make small transmitters that seams more about saying they can't because you do not want them to be able than a logical limit in where tech should be.

[eliakon]

There's also the matter of range. Something small enough to remain hidden inside a suit of body armor, even if it doesn't actively broadcast but just functions similar to those RFID anti-theft devices in stores, isn't going to have much range. The CS troops with the scanner would have to get within a few meters, maybe as much as 100 if you're really giving this the old "Tis Futar TECH!" treatment.

If it's actively transmitting, the range is going to be pretty short (or the bug larger, and thus easier to find) unless its also somehow tied in to the comm system of the armor, vehicle, whatever. And tying it in like that would make it easier to find. Not saying it would be easy, just easi-ER.

Unless, of course, you hand-wave all that away because plot and say that it's the future, they've got a lot better tracking devices, et cetera et cetera. Which is just as acceptable as a lot of other things that get handwaved, IMO.

You are thinking in terms of modern transmission tech. Rifts could easily have a small transmitter with range rated in miles not meters. It is not handwaving it is advanced tech. The reason we have to use larger tracking devices is mostly do to power storage, rifts can stir vast amount of power in small spaces. Atena can be quite small now and it may also be possible to use something in the device as a atena.

Odd that my house rule caused such a discusion hijacking this thread.

It's not simply a matter of power. There is the method of transmission (digital, shortwave, etc) and how it's done (radio waves need some kind of antenna, which equals size). Unless you're handwaving it with some kind of dilitium crystal based hullabuloo or whatever. Computers and comm gear in general in this setting are larger and less advanced than their counterparts in, say, Shadowrun.

But like I already said, it's your game, if you want to have handwavium-based tracking devices, and it adds something fun and/or challenging to the game, good on you.

I am hand waving nothing. You are stuck on the thinking they have to work a certain way. That is untrue, (the problem with the computers in.

I did address method of transmission. We can make transmission transceivers with current tech 1.2 x 1 x .3 with a 3000 M range that is something that could be hidden behind the padding of armor.(see link) But you want to insist a group with nano tech and super alloys can not make a smaller better transmitter. And as I said they could use something already in the armor or device as antenna like how my cell phone uses head phones to pick up radio stations. The limit is in your imagination not in plausible ability of the CS. (Typically the main limiting range of most transmissions is signal strength how much power the antenna puts out it is the larger they make them larger to handle power, as well as power source, antennas have gotten allot smaller while keeping range and function.)

https://www.amazon.com/Wolfwhoop-W833-5 ... dpSrc=srch

Another transmitter with a coin for size reference whole unit no bigger than 1 dollar coin(1/3 the output of the first so shorter range but rifts can fix that). You are right they totally could not put something like that in armor and increase the output power because rifts lacks the ability to run insane power threw small things. Oh wait that is what every energy hand weapon does.

https://www.amazon.com/Wolfwhoop-adjust ... enna&psc=1

I do not believe rifts can have nano bots but can not make small transmitters that seams more about saying they can't because you do not want them to be able than a logical limit in where tech should be.

The issue with this is two fold
1) we already know that 2017 technology in electronics is vastly superior to the published technology in Rifts in almost every way.
2) every example of portable radio in Rifts has to choose between either short range or large size
3) even if the CS did have a unique transmitter that was better then quite literally every other radio in the Megaverse... it still would be found by the first person to use Telemechanics on the item to determine if it was in good shape/figure out how to use it/figure out how to repair it/make sure it was the actual item and not a cheaper knock off. And thus it is not going to stay secret for very long. A year maybe 5... but fifty or sixty or more? No way. Even Archie has to invoke handwavium technology that is immune to psionics and even that can't transmit, it has to be downloaded manually at repair shops.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

Your game, you do what you want. I don't know how many times I have to say it.

[Eagle]

The CS does have resources to run down the bandits and they could use LRM fired from there super city locked on to the traking signal.
If you think the CS high command would not invest to deal with left and attacks on CS gear you have a low image of them.

What you are suggesting is do nothing to discourage people stealing from you. Lets use your example of banks they have taking several actions to stop/discourage theft from silent alarms under the counter, die packs, to sets of doors that act as a holding cell. But you want to say the CS should do nothing and just eat the losses.

I am not saying that this method will stop all theft but it will reduce it significantly and killing teams stealing your resources and attacking your troops is good thing for a military.

I love the idea of shooting long range missiles from hundreds of miles away at some blip on a screen without visually confirming anything. There's no way that could possibly backfire.

[Killer Cyborg]

How do real-world militaries deal with people trying to use them as loot pinatas?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

How do real-world militaries deal with people trying to use them as loot pinatas?

Youd have to ask the Russians how that went in Afghanistan.

From the huge number of weapons captured and used by the Afghans in their insurgence... id say, not so well.

[eliakon]

How do real-world militaries deal with people trying to use them as loot pinatas?

Well, since in real life that tends to not be a major issue since its much easier to get the stuff you want from the black market or from other nation sponsors?
But the way modern militaries deal with asymmetric warfare is things like Quick Reaction Forces, making sure everyone is in constant communication, making sure you have nearby bases to fall back to/get reinforcements from, that sort of thing.

Basically all the stuff that if you do it in the game people complain your a 'killer GM' who is 'out to get' your players because your CS is 'unfair' to the party.

Oddly enough no force on earth puts tracking devices on their actual gear since that would allow for their soldiers to be tracked and makes it easy for enemy ambushes. Shipping containers are routinely tagged, and various gear will broadcast GPS data when turned on... but no one has set up anything like a "lowjack" on rifles, or uniforms, or pistols let alone grenades or rockets.

[Natasha]

There's no apparent infrastructure for the CS to be doing this as well.

[Tiree]

I always wonder about that. Because they should be able to communicate from one mega city to another.

I have postulated that the CS uses high altitude flying drone satellites, or possibly make them low flying, 2 to 5 mile range as repeaters and surveillance systems. To be on top of combat actions and communications.

[eliakon]

I always wonder about that. Because they should be able to communicate from one mega city to another.

I have postulated that the CS uses high altitude flying drone satellites, or possibly make them low flying, 2 to 5 mile range as repeaters and surveillance systems. To be on top of combat actions and communications.

Radios with 500mile range are common. Every Power Armor and Robot Vehicle has one. That means that its not hard at all to talk between cities, or units.
Of course its also not exactly stealthy and you run into issues of possible interference via EW and such...
...but as the setting is right now there is no problem with communications, the opposite is actually the issue. Its ludicrously easy to talk to anyone and everyone and there shouldn't be any sort of issue like unknown cities, or unknown areas or stuff... since 500miles gives you a HUGE radius to talk to people...

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I always wonder about that. Because they should be able to communicate from one mega city to another.

I have postulated that the CS uses high altitude flying drone satellites, or possibly make them low flying, 2 to 5 mile range as repeaters and surveillance systems. To be on top of combat actions and communications.

Yeah, except were told specifically that there IS no instant communication between the various mega cities (just read this in... Lone Star, dont remember right now.), as little sense as that makes.

Every Robot vehicle has a radio with a range of 500 miles... but they cant put a major communcations base every 400 miles between major cities to enable instant or near instant radio communication? Come on. Youd only need like... six or seven of them to have an unbroken communications network from Lone Star all the way to FQ.

[dragonfett]

The ley lines cause interference, if I remember correctly.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The ley lines cause interference, if I remember correctly.

This is implied but never actually stated anywhere. In no description of a radio does it say "Range: 500 miles under good conditions but Ley Lines frequently interrupt or shorten this", and in no text anywhere could i find a statement other than basic generalizations.

And, really.. who cares? Put a base every 50 miles. Every 100. Whatever is necessary. Hell with the CS' manpower, you could set up enough stations that they could literally see each other and just use laser communicators. Put a platoon in each one, reinforced by Skelebots.

North America isn't as big as Kevin fantasized it to be. From the Lone Star Complex to Free Quebec is only ~1800 miles.

[Shark_Force]

I always wonder about that. Because they should be able to communicate from one mega city to another.

I have postulated that the CS uses high altitude flying drone satellites, or possibly make them low flying, 2 to 5 mile range as repeaters and surveillance systems. To be on top of combat actions and communications.

Yeah, except were told specifically that there IS no instant communication between the various mega cities (just read this in... Lone Star, dont remember right now.), as little sense as that makes.

Every Robot vehicle has a radio with a range of 500 miles... but they cant put a major communcations base every 400 miles between major cities to enable instant or near instant radio communication? Come on. Youd only need like... six or seven of them to have an unbroken communications network from Lone Star all the way to FQ.

i would be surprised if they even need to put anything anywhere. as in, it is presumably already in place, based on the fact that they have military all across their entire country (there's no place that has no defenses), therefore they must have military bases in every part of the country. heck, they probably even have roads going across their entire territory, just lay some cable along them. we're talking US civil war level of technology required, here.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I always wonder about that. Because they should be able to communicate from one mega city to another.

I have postulated that the CS uses high altitude flying drone satellites, or possibly make them low flying, 2 to 5 mile range as repeaters and surveillance systems. To be on top of combat actions and communications.

Yeah, except were told specifically that there IS no instant communication between the various mega cities (just read this in... Lone Star, dont remember right now.), as little sense as that makes.

Every Robot vehicle has a radio with a range of 500 miles... but they cant put a major communcations base every 400 miles between major cities to enable instant or near instant radio communication? Come on. Youd only need like... six or seven of them to have an unbroken communications network from Lone Star all the way to FQ.

i would be surprised if they even need to put anything anywhere. as in, it is presumably already in place, based on the fact that they have military all across their entire country (there's no place that has no defenses), therefore they must have military bases in every part of the country. heck, they probably even have roads going across their entire territory, just lay some cable along them. we're talking US civil war level of technology required, here.

I agree with all of that too. There's no reason they couldn't just run cabling between their major installations and have cameras/AI monitoring it.

[Blue_Lion]

I always wonder about that. Because they should be able to communicate from one mega city to another.

I have postulated that the CS uses high altitude flying drone satellites, or possibly make them low flying, 2 to 5 mile range as repeaters and surveillance systems. To be on top of combat actions and communications.

Radios with 500mile range are common. Every Power Armor and Robot Vehicle has one. That means that its not hard at all to talk between cities, or units.
Of course its also not exactly stealthy and you run into issues of possible interference via EW and such...
...but as the setting is right now there is no problem with communications, the opposite is actually the issue. Its ludicrously easy to talk to anyone and everyone and there shouldn't be any sort of issue like unknown cities, or unknown areas or stuff... since 500miles gives you a HUGE radius to talk to people...

Having access to radios with 500 mile range does not mean every one can here what you say if they are military style where you have to enter a frequency. It requires people to be talking. Unknown cities happen when no one in your network is talking about it. Knowledge might be limited to certain circles, where outside that circles they would only here about it threw a rumor mill.

You can't think about information sharing like we have it where every person has easy access to the information. Information sharing in Rifts would primarily be word of mouth. You are going to get as much miss information as true information with limited ability to check accuracy of allot of the information you receive.

[Blue_Lion]

I always wonder about that. Because they should be able to communicate from one mega city to another.

I have postulated that the CS uses high altitude flying drone satellites, or possibly make them low flying, 2 to 5 mile range as repeaters and surveillance systems. To be on top of combat actions and communications.

Yeah, except were told specifically that there IS no instant communication between the various mega cities (just read this in... Lone Star, dont remember right now.), as little sense as that makes.

Every Robot vehicle has a radio with a range of 500 miles... but they cant put a major communcations base every 400 miles between major cities to enable instant or near instant radio communication? Come on. Youd only need like... six or seven of them to have an unbroken communications network from Lone Star all the way to FQ.

i would be surprised if they even need to put anything anywhere. as in, it is presumably already in place, based on the fact that they have military all across their entire country (there's no place that has no defenses), therefore they must have military bases in every part of the country. heck, they probably even have roads going across their entire territory, just lay some cable along them. we're talking US civil war level of technology required, here.

I agree with all of that too. There's no reason they couldn't just run cabling between their major installations and have cameras/AI monitoring it.

There are lots of reasons, bandits could destroy such cabling, wandering creatures in rifts could destroy such cables. I am sure a dinosaur could easily break suspended cabling. Digging and tunneling creatures could disrupt underground cables. Cables are subject to tapping by near by nations that may use it to learn about your nation.

Now that said there is a banking system in place for credits that are described digital in nature. So there is a way for official channels to share information. But that is not the same as every one having access to reliable information systems. Information would primarily be exchange in limited groups with word of mouth and rumors out side the circle in the know.

[The Beast]

Well with cable you'd have signal loss so you'd need to have that item I remember hearing about while in the Signal Corps but am totally having a brain fart trying to remember the name right now. I want to say repeater but I don't think that's right. Anyway you don't even need a cable or a fiber optic link. You can bounce a signal off the air.

[eliakon]

I always wonder about that. Because they should be able to communicate from one mega city to another.

I have postulated that the CS uses high altitude flying drone satellites, or possibly make them low flying, 2 to 5 mile range as repeaters and surveillance systems. To be on top of combat actions and communications.

Radios with 500mile range are common. Every Power Armor and Robot Vehicle has one. That means that its not hard at all to talk between cities, or units.
Of course its also not exactly stealthy and you run into issues of possible interference via EW and such...
...but as the setting is right now there is no problem with communications, the opposite is actually the issue. Its ludicrously easy to talk to anyone and everyone and there shouldn't be any sort of issue like unknown cities, or unknown areas or stuff... since 500miles gives you a HUGE radius to talk to people...

Having access to radios with 500 mile range does not mean every one can here what you say if they are military style where you have to enter a frequency. It requires people to be talking. Unknown cities happen when no one in your network is talking about it. Knowledge might be limited to certain circles, where outside that circles they would only here about it threw a rumor mill.

You can't think about information sharing like we have it where every person has easy access to the information. Information sharing in Rifts would primarily be word of mouth. You are going to get as much miss information as true information with limited ability to check accuracy of allot of the information you receive.

Problems with your assumptions
1) the radios are not encrypted so no there is no need to 'punch in' anything, just tune that dial till you hear someone talking
2) this leads to there are no 'networks'

Now yeah, people can make up all sorts of house rules to make Rifts be an information poor world where no one can communicate sure.
But that requires making up house rules. Because the rules as written in the books don't support that stance.
Its sort of like how the airline in Merctown exists. Yeah, sure there is fluff in the RMB about how the world is a vast wilderness that no one knows what is in it... But they drop that in the later books and there are no mechanics for it what so ever, which results in the fact that we are stuck with "yes, there is really an Airline with daily flights in North America" just like Northern Gun runs a package delivery service that will fly your stuff to you (which btw requires a communications system to work...)

Its all examples of "there might be a fluff line in a book sure... but there is nothing in the rules about it, and what there IS published counters that fluff at every turn so most people believe the printed facts over a 20 year old obsolete fluff"

It gets even MORE hilarious when you stop to think about it for even a second. All those weapons out there? Too bad there are only a few places that they can be made...
...so with out a wide spread distribution network no one should have them.
It gets even worse for ammunition (like the missiles that people like to claim would be used to shoot down aircraft and thus make flying impossible... Okay so where are all these people getting their millions of credits of missiles that they are shooting off hmmm?)
Same with all the power armor, robot vehicles, EBA, grenades, radios... you know all the stuff that every OCC starts with?