Borgs verses phase weapons

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Primalzen
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Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Primalzen »

Hello all , the situation came up in my game the other day . You have a rifts Borg all decked out and he is confronted by an opponent that has a phase weapon Sword ,postal ,rifle from the three Galaxies .as phase weapons only damage biological matter or force fields .would it be a one shot kill on the Borg as the only real biological parts are the brain and a few other organs .
Thanks for any help on the subject .
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Primalzen wrote:Hello all , the situation came up in my game the other day . You have a rifts Borg all decked out and he is confronted by an opponent that has a phase weapon Sword ,postal ,rifle from the three Galaxies .as phase weapons only damage biological matter or force fields .would it be a one shot kill on the Borg as the only real biological parts are the brain and a few other organs .
Thanks for any help on the subject .


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

9. I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.
Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.


The first thing that comes to mind is that. So the borg would take half damage but may only have 1d4 per level to soak up the damage. As a GM you could rule that hitting the organics(natural body parts) requires a called shot.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Primalzen »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Primalzen wrote:Hello all , the situation came up in my game the other day . You have a rifts Borg all decked out and he is confronted by an opponent that has a phase weapon Sword ,postal ,rifle from the three Galaxies .as phase weapons only damage biological matter or force fields .would it be a one shot kill on the Borg as the only real biological parts are the brain and a few other organs .
Thanks for any help on the subject .


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

9. I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.
Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.


The first thing that comes to mind is that. So the borg would take half damage but may only have 1d4 per level to soak up the damage. As a GM you could rule that hitting the organics(natural body parts) requires a called shot.

But the PE +1d4 wouldn't tha be for a fully functioning body , not just the brain and tongue . I couldn't see such organs having more than 10 hp at the most .
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmartree »

Primalzen wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Primalzen wrote:Hello all , the situation came up in my game the other day . You have a rifts Borg all decked out and he is confronted by an opponent that has a phase weapon Sword ,postal ,rifle from the three Galaxies .as phase weapons only damage biological matter or force fields .would it be a one shot kill on the Borg as the only real biological parts are the brain and a few other organs .
Thanks for any help on the subject .


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

9. I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.
Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.


The first thing that comes to mind is that. So the borg would take half damage but may only have 1d4 per level to soak up the damage. As a GM you could rule that hitting the organics(natural body parts) requires a called shot.

But the PE +1d4 wouldn't tha be for a fully functioning body , not just the brain and tongue . I couldn't see such organs having more than 10 hp at the most .


it wouldn't be for a fully functioning body because that's for full conversion, that said that's really not a lot, depending on how you roll a high level borg might be able to take a few shots or only 1. and you can bet healing will be an issue. I'd probably handwave it as a sideeffect of the support systems meant to keep the brain alive and functioning. If you feel like a brain shot should do more damage or have an effect go for it. I think the standard rule for my group is x4 damage on headshots? usually with some sideeffects if the guy somehow lives, so a phase weapon to the brain is almost certain death if you apply hit location multipliers "high" HP or not.

All in all sounds like a good reason to get an "anti-phase" field or forcefield, maybe a micro one just for your vitals to have an ectra layer of protection and a way to stop phase tech from one shot one kill, though it'd have to be called shots to hit the fleshy bits likely.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by The Beast »

Borgs are considered MDC creatures now. I don't remember which book lists that change, but it was as a result of phase weapons being introduced. My group at the time just used the SDC/HP values for the head out of the CoMW book.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

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The Beast wrote:Borgs are considered MDC creatures now. I don't remember which book lists that change, but it was as a result of phase weapons being introduced. My group at the time just used the SDC/HP values for the head out of the CoMW book.

Rue states they are MDC well after phase weapons, but FCB where always listed with MDC not hp. The issue is this rule/faq does not state they have hp in general just that for the intent of phase weapons they have a X hp. So is written as kind of a special case, full conversion borgs where always listed as MDC but only when a phase weapon is used do they have HP for the purpose of a phase weapon damaging them. The only time I have ever seen any thing address a FCB HP is that ruling for phase weapons.

(most FCB do not have PE so it amounts to 1d4 hp per level)
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I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by dreicunan »

Blue_Lion wrote:
The Beast wrote:Borgs are considered MDC creatures now. I don't remember which book lists that change, but it was as a result of phase weapons being introduced. My group at the time just used the SDC/HP values for the head out of the CoMW book.

Rue states they are MDC well after phase weapons, but FCB where always listed with MDC not hp. The issue is this rule/faq does not state they have hp in general just that for the intent of phase weapons they have a X hp. So is written as kind of a special case, full conversion borgs where always listed as MDC but only when a phase weapon is used do they have HP for the purpose of a phase weapon damaging them. The only time I have ever seen any thing address a FCB HP is that ruling for phase weapons.

(most FCB do not have PE so it amounts to 1d4 hp per level)

Or it means that an Full Conversion Borg has the PE it had before it became a full conversion borg. That may need to be determined on the spot if it was never rolled.

It makes one wonder if the Wolfen Quatoria having sdc skin was a stealth countermeasure agaisnt phase weapons.

That said, I'd probably rule that since the borg is a living being, a fusion of man and machine, the borg body would not be bypassed and would take MD from the phase weapon (but any borg armor worn would be bypassed).
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

dreicunan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
The Beast wrote:Borgs are considered MDC creatures now. I don't remember which book lists that change, but it was as a result of phase weapons being introduced. My group at the time just used the SDC/HP values for the head out of the CoMW book.

Rue states they are MDC well after phase weapons, but FCB where always listed with MDC not hp. The issue is this rule/faq does not state they have hp in general just that for the intent of phase weapons they have a X hp. So is written as kind of a special case, full conversion borgs where always listed as MDC but only when a phase weapon is used do they have HP for the purpose of a phase weapon damaging them. The only time I have ever seen any thing address a FCB HP is that ruling for phase weapons.

(most FCB do not have PE so it amounts to 1d4 hp per level)

Or it means that an Full Conversion Borg has the PE it had before it became a full conversion borg. That may need to be determined on the spot if it was never rolled.

It makes one wonder if the Wolfen Quatoria having sdc skin was a stealth countermeasure agaisnt phase weapons.

That said, I'd probably rule that since the borg is a living being, a fusion of man and machine, the borg body would not be bypassed and would take MD from the phase weapon (but any borg armor worn would be bypassed).


Except of course that they aren't living beings, they're machines that happen to have a living brain plugged into them, if you can't have a headjack and plug into a vehicle or power armor and render it alive installing the brain as a less removable component shouldn't either.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

Blue_Lion wrote:
The Beast wrote:Borgs are considered MDC creatures now. I don't remember which book lists that change, but it was as a result of phase weapons being introduced. My group at the time just used the SDC/HP values for the head out of the CoMW book.

Rue states they are MDC well after phase weapons, but FCB where always listed with MDC not hp. The issue is this rule/faq does not state they have hp in general just that for the intent of phase weapons they have a X hp. So is written as kind of a special case, full conversion borgs where always listed as MDC but only when a phase weapon is used do they have HP for the purpose of a phase weapon damaging them. The only time I have ever seen any thing address a FCB HP is that ruling for phase weapons.

(most FCB do not have PE so it amounts to 1d4 hp per level)


Because almost no attacks in the game can bypass the MDC shell to hit the SDC/HP components directly. Not much point to listing the SDC/HP of the brain if there aren't any attacks that can reach it and it dies automatically when you destroy its life support systems. Once you DO have weapons though that can hit it directly you need to list how much damage it can take (and given it's little more than a brain it really ought to be a one-hit-kill as it shouldn't have enough SDC or HP to handle any kind of shot, brains are NOT actually that sturdy).
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by dreicunan »

Nightmask wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
The Beast wrote:Borgs are considered MDC creatures now. I don't remember which book lists that change, but it was as a result of phase weapons being introduced. My group at the time just used the SDC/HP values for the head out of the CoMW book.

Rue states they are MDC well after phase weapons, but FCB where always listed with MDC not hp. The issue is this rule/faq does not state they have hp in general just that for the intent of phase weapons they have a X hp. So is written as kind of a special case, full conversion borgs where always listed as MDC but only when a phase weapon is used do they have HP for the purpose of a phase weapon damaging them. The only time I have ever seen any thing address a FCB HP is that ruling for phase weapons.

(most FCB do not have PE so it amounts to 1d4 hp per level)

Or it means that an Full Conversion Borg has the PE it had before it became a full conversion borg. That may need to be determined on the spot if it was never rolled.

It makes one wonder if the Wolfen Quatoria having sdc skin was a stealth countermeasure agaisnt phase weapons.

That said, I'd probably rule that since the borg is a living being, a fusion of man and machine, the borg body would not be bypassed and would take MD from the phase weapon (but any borg armor worn would be bypassed).


Except of course that they aren't living beings, they're machines that happen to have a living brain plugged into them, if you can't have a headjack and plug into a vehicle or power armor and render it alive installing the brain as a less removable component shouldn't either.

Yet those parts attached to a cyborg are treated like part of a living being for the purposes of thr Telemechanic powers (they are flat out immune to them; even sentient machines and AIs are vulnerable to Telemechanic Possession). Thus, there is precedent for my position in the game. It certainly isn't a canon issue though and people will disagree.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

dreicunan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
The Beast wrote:Borgs are considered MDC creatures now. I don't remember which book lists that change, but it was as a result of phase weapons being introduced. My group at the time just used the SDC/HP values for the head out of the CoMW book.

Rue states they are MDC well after phase weapons, but FCB where always listed with MDC not hp. The issue is this rule/faq does not state they have hp in general just that for the intent of phase weapons they have a X hp. So is written as kind of a special case, full conversion borgs where always listed as MDC but only when a phase weapon is used do they have HP for the purpose of a phase weapon damaging them. The only time I have ever seen any thing address a FCB HP is that ruling for phase weapons.

(most FCB do not have PE so it amounts to 1d4 hp per level)

Or it means that an Full Conversion Borg has the PE it had before it became a full conversion borg. That may need to be determined on the spot if it was never rolled.

It makes one wonder if the Wolfen Quatoria having sdc skin was a stealth countermeasure agaisnt phase weapons.

That said, I'd probably rule that since the borg is a living being, a fusion of man and machine, the borg body would not be bypassed and would take MD from the phase weapon (but any borg armor worn would be bypassed).


Except of course that they aren't living beings, they're machines that happen to have a living brain plugged into them, if you can't have a headjack and plug into a vehicle or power armor and render it alive installing the brain as a less removable component shouldn't either.


Yet those parts attached to a cyborg are treated like part of a living being for the purposes of thr Telemechanic powers (they are flat out immune to them; even sentient machines and AIs are vulnerable to Telemechanic Possession). Thus, there is precedent for my position in the game. It certainly isn't a canon issue though and people will disagree.


Too much effort to protect Borgs from the consequences of someone taking control over them like a purely flesh-and-blood person had to worry about. So they had it where Borgs didn't have to worry about someone using psionics to usurp their control over the machine body (but the flesh-and-blood guy next to him got no such protection from the guy with possession psionics). Same with phase beamers, a guy in power armor has to worry about being phase-beamed right through his armor and easily killed but you see efforts to insist that borgs are safe from that threat.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Incriptus »

Nightmask wrote:Too much effort to protect Borgs from the consequences of someone taking control over them like a purely flesh-and-blood person had to worry about. So they had it where Borgs didn't have to worry about someone using psionics to usurp their control over the machine body (but the flesh-and-blood guy next to him got no such protection from the guy with possession psionics). Same with phase beamers, a guy in power armor has to worry about being phase-beamed right through his armor and easily killed but you see efforts to insist that borgs are safe from that threat.


That 'Borg lost all but 1d4 of his P.P.E. buying that protection, the guy in power armor did not :-)
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Primalzen wrote:Hello all , the situation came up in my game the other day . You have a rifts Borg all decked out and he is confronted by an opponent that has a phase weapon Sword ,postal ,rifle from the three Galaxies .as phase weapons only damage biological matter or force fields .would it be a one shot kill on the Borg as the only real biological parts are the brain and a few other organs .
Thanks for any help on the subject .


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

9. I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.
Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.


The first thing that comes to mind is that. So the borg would take half damage but may only have 1d4 per level to soak up the damage. As a GM you could rule that hitting the organics(natural body parts) requires a called shot.


That's the old FAQ.
It is incorrect.

Borgs are living Mega-Damage creatures, so a phase beam would inflict Mega-Damage to their cybernetic body.

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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

Incriptus wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Too much effort to protect Borgs from the consequences of someone taking control over them like a purely flesh-and-blood person had to worry about. So they had it where Borgs didn't have to worry about someone using psionics to usurp their control over the machine body (but the flesh-and-blood guy next to him got no such protection from the guy with possession psionics). Same with phase beamers, a guy in power armor has to worry about being phase-beamed right through his armor and easily killed but you see efforts to insist that borgs are safe from that threat.


That 'Borg lost all but 1d4 of his P.P.E. buying that protection, the guy in power armor did not :-)


That wouldn't be relevant, he had no use for PPE anyway and as an average human he wouldn't have much to start with. At least the South American Anti-Monsters are justified in it because they're an advanced techno-wizard creation that when all the spells are cast and the last thing taken care of the borg shell becomes a living thing capable of healing, so it's justified for that borg to have the flesh inside be protected from a phase beamer because the borg shell is truly alive like a conventional shell isn't. Conventional borgs have no aspects of life other than the living bits heavily shielded within. They're just heavy duty power armor you can never leave.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by dreicunan »

Nightmask wrote:
Incriptus wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Too much effort to protect Borgs from the consequences of someone taking control over them like a purely flesh-and-blood person had to worry about. So they had it where Borgs didn't have to worry about someone using psionics to usurp their control over the machine body (but the flesh-and-blood guy next to him got no such protection from the guy with possession psionics). Same with phase beamers, a guy in power armor has to worry about being phase-beamed right through his armor and easily killed but you see efforts to insist that borgs are safe from that threat.


That 'Borg lost all but 1d4 of his P.P.E. buying that protection, the guy in power armor did not :-)


That wouldn't be relevant, he had no use for PPE anyway and as an average human he wouldn't have much to start with. At least the South American Anti-Monsters are justified in it because they're an advanced techno-wizard creation that when all the spells are cast and the last thing taken care of the borg shell becomes a living thing capable of healing, so it's justified for that borg to have the flesh inside be protected from a phase beamer because the borg shell is truly alive like a conventional shell isn't. Conventional borgs have no aspects of life other than the living bits heavily shielded within. They're just heavy duty power armor you can never leave.

As Killer Cyborg has already pointed out, the canon answer disagrees with you.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

dreicunan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Incriptus wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Too much effort to protect Borgs from the consequences of someone taking control over them like a purely flesh-and-blood person had to worry about. So they had it where Borgs didn't have to worry about someone using psionics to usurp their control over the machine body (but the flesh-and-blood guy next to him got no such protection from the guy with possession psionics). Same with phase beamers, a guy in power armor has to worry about being phase-beamed right through his armor and easily killed but you see efforts to insist that borgs are safe from that threat.


That 'Borg lost all but 1d4 of his P.P.E. buying that protection, the guy in power armor did not :-)


That wouldn't be relevant, he had no use for PPE anyway and as an average human he wouldn't have much to start with. At least the South American Anti-Monsters are justified in it because they're an advanced techno-wizard creation that when all the spells are cast and the last thing taken care of the borg shell becomes a living thing capable of healing, so it's justified for that borg to have the flesh inside be protected from a phase beamer because the borg shell is truly alive like a conventional shell isn't. Conventional borgs have no aspects of life other than the living bits heavily shielded within. They're just heavy duty power armor you can never leave.


As Killer Cyborg has already pointed out, the canon answer disagrees with you.


Don't care in the slightest what he thinks the canon answer is. Cyborgs aren't alive outside of the brain inside them, they're just dead metal and not going to stop a phase beamer in the slightest anymore than a suit of power armor someone's jacked into will. There's no difference between the two. None. Hooking a brain to something doesn't make it alive which is why nobody goes around hooking brains into starships in Phase World where Phase Beamers are still not that common a threat even though it would be incredibly helpful against all those pirates using them since it would mean the ship's hull could actually provide protection against their phase cannons.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Axelmania »

Borgs.shouldnt.be.more vulnerable since less of them is getting hit. This is why large creatures take more damage from the biggest beamer.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nightmask wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Incriptus wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Too much effort to protect Borgs from the consequences of someone taking control over them like a purely flesh-and-blood person had to worry about. So they had it where Borgs didn't have to worry about someone using psionics to usurp their control over the machine body (but the flesh-and-blood guy next to him got no such protection from the guy with possession psionics). Same with phase beamers, a guy in power armor has to worry about being phase-beamed right through his armor and easily killed but you see efforts to insist that borgs are safe from that threat.


That 'Borg lost all but 1d4 of his P.P.E. buying that protection, the guy in power armor did not :-)


That wouldn't be relevant, he had no use for PPE anyway and as an average human he wouldn't have much to start with. At least the South American Anti-Monsters are justified in it because they're an advanced techno-wizard creation that when all the spells are cast and the last thing taken care of the borg shell becomes a living thing capable of healing, so it's justified for that borg to have the flesh inside be protected from a phase beamer because the borg shell is truly alive like a conventional shell isn't. Conventional borgs have no aspects of life other than the living bits heavily shielded within. They're just heavy duty power armor you can never leave.


As Killer Cyborg has already pointed out, the canon answer disagrees with you.


Don't care in the slightest what he thinks the canon answer is.


Do you care what Kevin Siembieda thinks the canon answer is?
Because that was in the link that I posted.

Do you care what CJ Carella thinks the canon answer is?
Because that's mentioned in the conversation that I linked to.

Cyborgs aren't alive outside of the brain inside them, they're just dead metal and not going to stop a phase beamer in the slightest anymore than a suit of power armor someone's jacked into will. There's no difference between the two. None. Hooking a brain to something doesn't make it alive which is why nobody goes around hooking brains into starships in Phase World where Phase Beamers are still not that common a threat even though it would be incredibly helpful against all those pirates using them since it would mean the ship's hull could actually provide protection against their phase cannons.


All stuff that we covered 12 years ago.
The short version is:
-A cyborg is the synthesis--the combination--of man and machine.
-He is a machine with a human brain
-Full bionic conversion means that the character is over 80% machine and often more than 90%.
-A surprising 89% are completely adjusted to life as a living machine.
-Note that living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage. (Phase World 122)

A cyborg is not the human brain or the mechanical body--it is specifically the synthesis of those two things.
A cyborg is made up 80%+ of mechanical parts, therefore the mechanical bits are part of what make up the borg.
A borg is considered to be "a living machine," and phase beams damage living creatures no matter what they are made of.
So it doesn't matter if the mechanical body and other parts are technically alive--they are considered to be part of a living creature, and are therefore able to be harmed by phase beams. Because phase beams don't care what a living creature is made of, only whether or not the whole being is or is not considered to be a living being.
Specifically, a borg "is considered a mega-damage being," one that "is impervious to any attacks or weapons that do damage direct to Hit Points" (RUE 47)

Shorter answer:
Kev said that they're MDC creatures that have no Hit Points or SDC: MDC only.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Axelmania »

Heck even non-living things like vampires and force fields get hurt.

Not sure if Machine People were ever addressed.

Or a cosmo-knight's 500 MDC armor.

Or archie 3 or other sentient AIs
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by dreicunan »

Nightmask wrote:Don't care in the slightest what he thinks the canon answer is. Cyborgs aren't alive outside of the brain inside them, they're just dead metal and not going to stop a phase beamer in the slightest anymore than a suit of power armor someone's jacked into will. There's no difference between the two. None. Hooking a brain to something doesn't make it alive which is why nobody goes around hooking brains into starships in Phase World where Phase Beamers are still not that common a threat even though it would be incredibly helpful against all those pirates using them since it would mean the ship's hull could actually provide protection against their phase cannons.

It isn't what he thinks the canon answer is; it's what Kevin Siembieda thinks that matters, and he clearly doesn't agree with you (hence why borgs aren't vulnerable to Telemechanic possession). There clearly IS a difference between a cyborg and a suit of armor to which someone is jacked in.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote:Heck even non-living things like vampires and force fields get hurt.

Not sure if Machine People were ever addressed.

Or a cosmo-knight's 500 MDC armor.

Or archie 3 or other sentient AIs


Yup.
Archie is specifically a case where the rules clearly applies.
Archie is a living being made out of mechanical/electrical parts.
Phase Beams harm living creatures, no matter what they're made of.
Therefore, Phase Beams would harm Archie, inflicting HP if they hit him directly.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Eagle »

I have never really cared what the official FAQ is on most things Palladium. They make really dumb rulings, all the time. I sincerely think that KS waits until somebody in his gaming group does something he doesn't like, and then he says "no, you can't do that". And then he changes the rules, and pretends they've always been that way. I think the -10 to dodge bullets came about because somebody in his group ended up with like a +13 auto-dodge or something, and Big Villain just couldn't hit him. So then suddenly there was a -10 to dodge bullets that no one had ever heard of before, because it's "more realistic".

So, completely throwing aside anything official from Palladium, I'd probably rule phase beamers versus borgs would go something like this:

If it's a weapon a PC has, I'd give NPC borgs a pretty high Armor Rating (like AR 18 or something). This would represent the fact that there's only a little bit of human still in there, and most of the time the phase beamer isn't going to make contact with anything except machine. All that's left in there is some brain and spinal cord. But if you do manage to hit, he's got minimal hit points and you probably just annihilate him. Phase beamers are very rare weapons, and I don't have a problem with them being almost instant death to one particular type of character (who is otherwise quite powerful).

If it's a weapon an NPC has, I don't want to kill off the PC because of one lucky shot. So I probably wouldn't use a phase beamer against a borg PC. That, or I'd give him a big warning about how the thing worked so he knew to steer clear of the guy. That, or if I wasn't paying attention and the thing just slipped through, I'd probably rule that the borg components keep the brain alive or something. The guy would be in a coma for a while, but the (perfectly functional and undamaged) borg parts are designed to protect the brain. So even if the beamer completely fried him, I'd let him wake up after a week or something, with everybody gathered around the hospital bed happy to see him alive.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

dreicunan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Don't care in the slightest what he thinks the canon answer is. Cyborgs aren't alive outside of the brain inside them, they're just dead metal and not going to stop a phase beamer in the slightest anymore than a suit of power armor someone's jacked into will. There's no difference between the two. None. Hooking a brain to something doesn't make it alive which is why nobody goes around hooking brains into starships in Phase World where Phase Beamers are still not that common a threat even though it would be incredibly helpful against all those pirates using them since it would mean the ship's hull could actually provide protection against their phase cannons.


It isn't what he thinks the canon answer is; it's what Kevin Siembieda thinks that matters, and he clearly doesn't agree with you (hence why borgs aren't vulnerable to Telemechanic possession). There clearly IS a difference between a cyborg and a suit of armor to which someone is jacked in.


Doesn't change anything I said or affect it in any fashion.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

Eagle wrote:I have never really cared what the official FAQ is on most things Palladium. They make really dumb rulings, all the time. I sincerely think that KS waits until somebody in his gaming group does something he doesn't like, and then he says "no, you can't do that". And then he changes the rules, and pretends they've always been that way. I think the -10 to dodge bullets came about because somebody in his group ended up with like a +13 auto-dodge or something, and Big Villain just couldn't hit him. So then suddenly there was a -10 to dodge bullets that no one had ever heard of before, because it's "more realistic".

So, completely throwing aside anything official from Palladium, I'd probably rule phase beamers versus borgs would go something like this:

If it's a weapon a PC has, I'd give NPC borgs a pretty high Armor Rating (like AR 18 or something). This would represent the fact that there's only a little bit of human still in there, and most of the time the phase beamer isn't going to make contact with anything except machine. All that's left in there is some brain and spinal cord. But if you do manage to hit, he's got minimal hit points and you probably just annihilate him. Phase beamers are very rare weapons, and I don't have a problem with them being almost instant death to one particular type of character (who is otherwise quite powerful).

If it's a weapon an NPC has, I don't want to kill off the PC because of one lucky shot. So I probably wouldn't use a phase beamer against a borg PC. That, or I'd give him a big warning about how the thing worked so he knew to steer clear of the guy. That, or if I wasn't paying attention and the thing just slipped through, I'd probably rule that the borg components keep the brain alive or something. The guy would be in a coma for a while, but the (perfectly functional and undamaged) borg parts are designed to protect the brain. So even if the beamer completely fried him, I'd let him wake up after a week or something, with everybody gathered around the hospital bed happy to see him alive.


In general that's how it should be, they're rare, borgs should have to fear them just like any other SDC/HP creature as their MDC armor proves meaningless against it. A GM though should give some warning that such terrible weapons are around rather than ambushing a PC group (borg or otherwise) with them, including some idea how to protect against them. If they fail to take proper steps then it's on them for getting killed off if they chose to not get some kind of personal force field or installed shielding against phase weapons.
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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Bored aren't SDC/HP creatures. They're MDC creatures.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Even if the official ruling in it's most current form stated that borgs were SDC underneath the armor/body, the idea that a GM should hold phase beamers over their heads like a threat is the truly laughable part here.

Games shouldn't be run based on that, characters shouldn't be made with the GM calculating how they'll pull the rug out from underneath them.

regardless, before any of this even came up I was equipping cyborgs with force fields, because nothing says lovin' like MDC overkill. :bandit:
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

it is worth noting that full conversion borgs are not just "a brain in a jar".. they include a fair bit of the original body's organs by default.

it would not be hard to believe that they left much of the nervous system (image) intact (be it original or bio-system), threaded throughout the mechanical body, since the brain is already adapted to processing biochemical nerve impulses.

in such an approach, the phase beamers would be destroying this organic 'control network', rendering portions of the borg non-responsive.. pretty much the same way that physical damage would. since said network would be fairly redundant (our own bodies some redundancies in that fashion) a single hit would be unlikely to completely disable a limb or a system. repairing said damage would require installation of new organic nerve fibers, either cultured cloned replacements or biosystem versions.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

Alrik Vas wrote:Even if the official ruling in it's most current form stated that borgs were SDC underneath the armor/body, the idea that a GM should hold phase beamers over their heads like a threat is the truly laughable part here.

Games shouldn't be run based on that, characters shouldn't be made with the GM calculating how they'll pull the rug out from underneath them.

regardless, before any of this even came up I was equipping cyborgs with force fields, because nothing says lovin' like MDC overkill. :bandit:


I don't think anyone's said anything like that, just that borgs shouldn't get some special exemption from being harmed by them when the guy in power armor or a vehicle can't. Phase beamers only work against living things, outside of the Anti-Monster borg bodies aren't living things, only the brain inside is and it's decidedly not MDC. You can stand a cyborg body up sans a brain and the phase beamer is just going to ignore it, logically it should still ignore it when you put a brain in because it's still just a machine that's not alive. If the borg wants protection he should pay for it, like an installed force field, rather than have the player whine because *gasp* being a borg doesn't make him safe from everything and he still has to worry about some things.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Nightmask wrote:I don't think anyone's said anything like that, just that borgs shouldn't get some special exemption from being harmed by them when the guy in power armor or a vehicle can't. Phase beamers only work against living things, outside of the Anti-Monster borg bodies aren't living things, only the brain inside is and it's decidedly not MDC. You can stand a cyborg body up sans a brain and the phase beamer is just going to ignore it, logically it should still ignore it when you put a brain in because it's still just a machine that's not alive. If the borg wants protection he should pay for it, like an installed force field, rather than have the player whine because *gasp* being a borg doesn't make him safe from everything and he still has to worry about some things.


Then what do you call your earlier statement?

Nightmask wrote:In general that's how it should be, they're rare, borgs should have to fear them just like any other SDC/HP creature as their MDC armor proves meaningless against it. A GM though should give some warning that such terrible weapons are around rather than ambushing a PC group (borg or otherwise) with them, including some idea how to protect against them. If they fail to take proper steps then it's on them for getting killed off if they chose to not get some kind of personal force field or installed shielding against phase weapons.


regardless of what you intended, that's how it came off to me.

In either case, I don't entirely disagree with your thinking. I would certainly run it more complex with phase beamers being dangerous to cyborgs, etc. That doesn't change the official ruling, though.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Primalzen wrote:Hello all , the situation came up in my game the other day . You have a rifts Borg all decked out and he is confronted by an opponent that has a phase weapon Sword ,postal ,rifle from the three Galaxies .as phase weapons only damage biological matter or force fields .would it be a one shot kill on the Borg as the only real biological parts are the brain and a few other organs .
Thanks for any help on the subject .


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

9. I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.
Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.


The first thing that comes to mind is that. So the borg would take half damage but may only have 1d4 per level to soak up the damage. As a GM you could rule that hitting the organics(natural body parts) requires a called shot.


That's the old FAQ.
It is incorrect.

Borgs are living Mega-Damage creatures, so a phase beam would inflict Mega-Damage to their cybernetic body.

viewtopic.php?p=2094148#p2094148


I am going to have to disagree with you on this. That old post you linked, to make it look like this was addressed does not address the faq of a phase weapon and a FCB at all.

The fact that their is a general rule that FCB are MDC is not what is being challenged after all. So your post about a blanket rule they have no sdc/hp because they are MDC is a strawman. It makes it look you like you addressed a point you never did.

The wording -"for these purposes" is setting up a special case out side the normal. In other words they are only treated like they have HP when something like being hit by a phase weapon by passing the non living mechanical parts of the body happen. Making them taking SDC/HP by things like phase weapons the acceptation not the rule. (Note: that borgs are listed as being immune to attacks that go straight to HP, however while this attack is damaging the bogs special case HP phase weapons are a special sdc level attack that bypasses the artificial armor of the borgs body not an attack that is direct to HP.)

Now then the FaQ listed was at the time it was written an official reply to the question of borgs and phase weapons. Making it an official statement from PB. As it is creating a special case rule(an acceptation to the norm) it takes a official written statement to remove it from affect. By canon nothing removed the special case rule so by canon it is not wrong.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by dreicunan »

Nightmask wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Don't care in the slightest what he thinks the canon answer is. Cyborgs aren't alive outside of the brain inside them, they're just dead metal and not going to stop a phase beamer in the slightest anymore than a suit of power armor someone's jacked into will. There's no difference between the two. None. Hooking a brain to something doesn't make it alive which is why nobody goes around hooking brains into starships in Phase World where Phase Beamers are still not that common a threat even though it would be incredibly helpful against all those pirates using them since it would mean the ship's hull could actually provide protection against their phase cannons.


It isn't what he thinks the canon answer is; it's what Kevin Siembieda thinks that matters, and he clearly doesn't agree with you (hence why borgs aren't vulnerable to Telemechanic possession). There clearly IS a difference between a cyborg and a suit of armor to which someone is jacked in.


Doesn't change anything I said or affect it in any fashion.
Well, it illustrates that from a canonical perspective your position is indefensibly wrong since it is clear that there is a difference between someone being jacked into a suit of armor and a borg, which directly contradicts what you said.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by dreicunan »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Primalzen wrote:Hello all , the situation came up in my game the other day . You have a rifts Borg all decked out and he is confronted by an opponent that has a phase weapon Sword ,postal ,rifle from the three Galaxies .as phase weapons only damage biological matter or force fields .would it be a one shot kill on the Borg as the only real biological parts are the brain and a few other organs .
Thanks for any help on the subject .


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

9. I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.
Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.


The first thing that comes to mind is that. So the borg would take half damage but may only have 1d4 per level to soak up the damage. As a GM you could rule that hitting the organics(natural body parts) requires a called shot.


That's the old FAQ.
It is incorrect.

Borgs are living Mega-Damage creatures, so a phase beam would inflict Mega-Damage to their cybernetic body.

viewtopic.php?p=2094148#p2094148


I am going to have to disagree with you on this. That old post you linked, to make it look like this was addressed does not address the faq of a phase weapon and a FCB at all.

The fact that their is a general rule that FCB are MDC is not what is being challenged after all. So your post about a blanket rule they have no sdc/hp because they are MDC is a strawman. It makes it look you like you addressed a point you never did.

The wording -"for these purposes" is setting up a special case out side the normal. In other words they are only treated like they have HP when something like being hit by a phase weapon by passing the non living mechanical parts of the body happen. Making them taking SDC/HP by things like phase weapons the acceptation not the rule. (Note: that borgs are listed as being immune to attacks that go straight to HP, however while this attack is damaging the bogs special case HP phase weapons are a special sdc level attack that bypasses the artificial armor of the borgs body not an attack that is direct to HP.)

Now then the FaQ listed was at the time it was written an official reply to the question of borgs and phase weapons. Making it an official statement from PB. As it is creating a special case rule(an acceptation to the norm) it takes a official written statement to remove it from affect. By canon nothing removed the special case rule so by canon it is not wrong.

RUE page 47 says that they are considered a mega-damage being now to give the reason why they are immune to damage that goes direct to hit points. So there is your written, canon statement that they have no HP/SDC to affect. Saying that a borg is considered a mega-damage does indeed remove the special case by making it moot.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Primalzen wrote:Hello all , the situation came up in my game the other day . You have a rifts Borg all decked out and he is confronted by an opponent that has a phase weapon Sword ,postal ,rifle from the three Galaxies .as phase weapons only damage biological matter or force fields .would it be a one shot kill on the Borg as the only real biological parts are the brain and a few other organs .
Thanks for any help on the subject .


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

9. I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.
Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.


The first thing that comes to mind is that. So the borg would take half damage but may only have 1d4 per level to soak up the damage. As a GM you could rule that hitting the organics(natural body parts) requires a called shot.


That's the old FAQ.
It is incorrect.

Borgs are living Mega-Damage creatures, so a phase beam would inflict Mega-Damage to their cybernetic body.

viewtopic.php?p=2094148#p2094148


I am going to have to disagree with you on this. That old post you linked, to make it look like this was addressed does not address the faq of a phase weapon and a FCB at all.

The fact that their is a general rule that FCB are MDC is not what is being challenged after all. So your post about a blanket rule they have no sdc/hp because they are MDC is a strawman. It makes it look you like you addressed a point you never did.


That's not what a strawman is.

The wording -"for these purposes" is setting up a special case out side the normal. In other words they are only treated like they have HP when something like being hit by a phase weapon by passing the non living mechanical parts of the body happen. Making them taking SDC/HP by things like phase weapons the acceptation not the rule. (Note: that borgs are listed as being immune to attacks that go straight to HP, however while this attack is damaging the bogs special case HP phase weapons are a special sdc level attack that bypasses the artificial armor of the borgs body not an attack that is direct to HP.)


The old FAQ is just something that somebody made up. It's no more canon than any random opinion that anybody posts on the forums.
It often conflicts with the books, with what Kevin says, and with common sense.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

dreicunan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Don't care in the slightest what he thinks the canon answer is. Cyborgs aren't alive outside of the brain inside them, they're just dead metal and not going to stop a phase beamer in the slightest anymore than a suit of power armor someone's jacked into will. There's no difference between the two. None. Hooking a brain to something doesn't make it alive which is why nobody goes around hooking brains into starships in Phase World where Phase Beamers are still not that common a threat even though it would be incredibly helpful against all those pirates using them since it would mean the ship's hull could actually provide protection against their phase cannons.


It isn't what he thinks the canon answer is; it's what Kevin Siembieda thinks that matters, and he clearly doesn't agree with you (hence why borgs aren't vulnerable to Telemechanic possession). There clearly IS a difference between a cyborg and a suit of armor to which someone is jacked in.


Doesn't change anything I said or affect it in any fashion.
Well, it illustrates that from a canonical perspective your position is indefensibly wrong since it is clear that there is a difference between someone being jacked into a suit of armor and a borg, which directly contradicts what you said.

No canon statement has been provided that says FaQ is wrong people are claiming a blanket rule says a rule that is a special case (acception to the norm) is wrong. There may be a difference between the things like you said but that does not mean a machine implanted in or attached to a body is alive.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Primalzen wrote:Hello all , the situation came up in my game the other day . You have a rifts Borg all decked out and he is confronted by an opponent that has a phase weapon Sword ,postal ,rifle from the three Galaxies .as phase weapons only damage biological matter or force fields .would it be a one shot kill on the Borg as the only real biological parts are the brain and a few other organs .
Thanks for any help on the subject .


http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

9. I was wondering what would happen if a full conversion borg was hit with a phase gun OR a phase spell. Being that their bodies are made of what I would assume to be similar material to MDC armor, wouldn't that mean that a Borg should be VERY SCARED of phase guns being that the only living body parts that they have are maybe a tongue and a brain? This would mean that a Borg with X hundred MDC could be taken out by the cheapest phase weapon in a shot or two.
Answer: Phase weaponry would bypass a Borgs normal armor. Unless the 'borg was protected by a force field, the phase beamer would harm his natural body parts. Since the few body parts are small, the phase beam would do half damage (the GM might require a called shot to hit the area where the flesh components are); the 'borg's hit points for these purposes would be either normal, or, for full conversions, P.E. plus 1D4 per level of experience.


The first thing that comes to mind is that. So the borg would take half damage but may only have 1d4 per level to soak up the damage. As a GM you could rule that hitting the organics(natural body parts) requires a called shot.


That's the old FAQ.
It is incorrect.

Borgs are living Mega-Damage creatures, so a phase beam would inflict Mega-Damage to their cybernetic body.

viewtopic.php?p=2094148#p2094148


I am going to have to disagree with you on this. That old post you linked, to make it look like this was addressed does not address the faq of a phase weapon and a FCB at all.

The fact that their is a general rule that FCB are MDC is not what is being challenged after all. So your post about a blanket rule they have no sdc/hp because they are MDC is a strawman. It makes it look you like you addressed a point you never did.


That's not what a strawman is.

The wording -"for these purposes" is setting up a special case out side the normal. In other words they are only treated like they have HP when something like being hit by a phase weapon by passing the non living mechanical parts of the body happen. Making them taking SDC/HP by things like phase weapons the acceptation not the rule. (Note: that borgs are listed as being immune to attacks that go straight to HP, however while this attack is damaging the bogs special case HP phase weapons are a special sdc level attack that bypasses the artificial armor of the borgs body not an attack that is direct to HP.)


The old FAQ is just something that somebody made up. It's no more canon than any random opinion that anybody posts on the forums.
It often conflicts with the books, with what Kevin says, and with common sense.

You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule, then claiming the existence of a blanket rule that had already been identified proves the blanket rule exists so that the spcial case ruling is wrong by cannon. (The wording creates a special case so there is no conflict with the stated blanket rule.)

Every thing ever said about Rifts is just something some one made up. The FaQ you dislike was official replies at the time when it was written, making it an official statement about the rules from PB. A random post from some one is in no way the same as an official statement. The books conflict with the books, with what Kevin says and with common sense, but you have no problem accepting them.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule,


The burden is on you to prove your idea that the writers of the FAQ were ignoring a blanket rule that had not yet been officially written.
Regardless, I'll still ignore the FAQ because--as I've said--it holds no more meaning than any house-rule or head-canon that anybody here comes up with on their own.

The FaQ you dislike was official


Source?
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule,


The burden is on you to prove your idea that the writers of the FAQ were ignoring a blanket rule that had not yet been officially written.
Regardless, I'll still ignore the FAQ because--as I've said--it holds no more meaning than any house-rule or head-canon that anybody here comes up with on their own.

The FaQ you dislike was official


Source?

Nope I do not need to prove that they where ignoring blanket rule(or how FCB have always been stated), because it was never my claim that they where ignoring a blanket rule that is your straw man. The quote you are misrepresenting is me pointing out your straw man.

My claim is the wording is such that it creates a special case that only applies in limited conditions. Something that is not affected by a blanket rule as special conditions are acceptations to the norm.



The FaQ on the web page was put out by a PB employee responding on behalf of PB. That makes it official statement from PB unless some one higher up retracts it.

(We can debate claims on this but you can not claim one side in this debate is wrong by cannon.)
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I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by dreicunan »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule,


The burden is on you to prove your idea that the writers of the FAQ were ignoring a blanket rule that had not yet been officially written.
Regardless, I'll still ignore the FAQ because--as I've said--it holds no more meaning than any house-rule or head-canon that anybody here comes up with on their own.

The FaQ you dislike was official


Source?

Nope I do not need to prove that they where ignoring blanket rule(or how FCB have always been stated), because it was never my claim that they where ignoring a blanket rule that is your straw man. The quote you are misrepresenting is me pointing out your straw man.

My claim is the wording is such that it creates a special case that only applies in limited conditions. Something that is not affected by a blanket rule as special conditions are acceptations to the norm.



The FaQ on the web page was put out by a PB employee responding on behalf of PB. That makes it official statement from PB unless some one higher up retracts it.

(We can debate claims on this but you can not claim one side in this debate is wrong by cannon.)

Someone higher up like, say, Kevin Siembieda flat out stating that they are MDC only with no mention of exceptions? Or RUE making it clear that Full Conversion Borgs are considered MDC beings? Well, what do you know? The old FAQ, canon or not, has been rendered moot. You can't gave a special case if the reason for the special case has been removed!

Also, we totally could debate this by cannon, but that might get us in trouble with the authorities. :D
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule,


The burden is on you to prove your idea that the writers of the FAQ were ignoring a blanket rule that had not yet been officially written.
Regardless, I'll still ignore the FAQ because--as I've said--it holds no more meaning than any house-rule or head-canon that anybody here comes up with on their own.

The FaQ you dislike was official


Source?

Nope I do not need to prove that they where ignoring blanket rule (or how FCB have always been stated),


Care to quote the passage that you think is "how FCB have always been stated?"

because it was never my claim that they where ignoring a blanket rule that is your straw man.


Actually, that was me mis-speaking, and not grokking your personal distinction between "a blanket rule" and "a general rule."
How about: you prove your claim of "The fact that their is a general rule that FCB are MDC is not what is being challenged after all?"

My claim is the wording is such that it creates a special case that only applies in limited conditions.


Support it.

The FaQ on the web page was put out by a PB employee responding on behalf of PB.


Source?
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Axelmania »

An interesting question: what do phase beakers do regarding cyber armor turnednalive at level 5+ for knights? Roll AR to see which is damaged?

armor Bizarre?

KC even if it was an unpaid intern, Pallasium is effectively employing anybody who produces off-forum website material.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote:KC even if it was an unpaid intern, Palladium is effectively employing anybody who produces off-forum website material.


Volunteers aren't employees.
Even if they were, hiring somebody to give out their unsupported, unvetted, and uninformed opinions doesn't make those opinions official in any way that counts.
If Apple (or any other company) took a volunteer off the street, and put them in charge of a Help Line with zero training and no support, you could try to argue that their support IS "official," but it's a meaningless distinction since the person in question wouldn't know what they were talking about, and their guesses and opinions wouldn't be individually sanctioned or necessarily representative of the company's views, products, or anything else.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

dreicunan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule,


The burden is on you to prove your idea that the writers of the FAQ were ignoring a blanket rule that had not yet been officially written.
Regardless, I'll still ignore the FAQ because--as I've said--it holds no more meaning than any house-rule or head-canon that anybody here comes up with on their own.

The FaQ you dislike was official


Source?

Nope I do not need to prove that they where ignoring blanket rule(or how FCB have always been stated), because it was never my claim that they where ignoring a blanket rule that is your straw man. The quote you are misrepresenting is me pointing out your straw man.

My claim is the wording is such that it creates a special case that only applies in limited conditions. Something that is not affected by a blanket rule as special conditions are acceptations to the norm.



The FaQ on the web page was put out by a PB employee responding on behalf of PB. That makes it official statement from PB unless some one higher up retracts it.

(We can debate claims on this but you can not claim one side in this debate is wrong by cannon.)


Someone higher up like, say, Kevin Siembieda flat out stating that they are MDC only with no mention of exceptions? Or RUE making it clear that Full Conversion Borgs are considered MDC beings? Well, what do you know? The old FAQ, canon or not, has been rendered moot. You can't gave a special case if the reason for the special case has been removed!

Also, we totally could debate this by cannon, but that might get us in trouble with the authorities. :D


He doesn't have to list exceptions even when they exist because they're listed elsewhere, and to say that they're MDC BEINGS is of course ridiculous. Anti-Monsters are MDC beings, your average, run-of-the-mill cyborg isn't. Just an MDC MACHINE with a hard-wired brain to pilot it. Because again, otherwise wiring brains into starships and power armor and the like to negate the usefulness of Phase Beamers would be happening all over the place especially pirate-infested areas where such use is common to take starships intact.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by dreicunan »

Nightmask wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:You tried to set up a case where people where ignoring a blanket rule,


The burden is on you to prove your idea that the writers of the FAQ were ignoring a blanket rule that had not yet been officially written.
Regardless, I'll still ignore the FAQ because--as I've said--it holds no more meaning than any house-rule or head-canon that anybody here comes up with on their own.

The FaQ you dislike was official


Source?

Nope I do not need to prove that they where ignoring blanket rule(or how FCB have always been stated), because it was never my claim that they where ignoring a blanket rule that is your straw man. The quote you are misrepresenting is me pointing out your straw man.

My claim is the wording is such that it creates a special case that only applies in limited conditions. Something that is not affected by a blanket rule as special conditions are acceptations to the norm.



The FaQ on the web page was put out by a PB employee responding on behalf of PB. That makes it official statement from PB unless some one higher up retracts it.

(We can debate claims on this but you can not claim one side in this debate is wrong by cannon.)


Someone higher up like, say, Kevin Siembieda flat out stating that they are MDC only with no mention of exceptions? Or RUE making it clear that Full Conversion Borgs are considered MDC beings? Well, what do you know? The old FAQ, canon or not, has been rendered moot. You can't gave a special case if the reason for the special case has been removed!

Also, we totally could debate this by cannon, but that might get us in trouble with the authorities. :D


He doesn't have to list exceptions even when they exist because they're listed elsewhere, and to say that they're MDC BEINGS is of course ridiculous. Anti-Monsters are MDC beings, your average, run-of-the-mill cyborg isn't. Just an MDC MACHINE with a hard-wired brain to pilot it. Because again, otherwise wiring brains into starships and power armor and the like to negate the usefulness of Phase Beamers would be happening all over the place especially pirate-infested areas where such use is common to take starships intact.

RUE, page 47, regarding Full Conversion Cyborgs says "is considered a Mega-damage being now." So if by "ridiculous" you mean "canon" then you'd be correct.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Axelmania »

>unsupported, unvetted, and uninformed opinions

Putting it on the site is support.

Source on unvetted?

Everyone is somewhat informed.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Library Ogre »

My ******** technobabble reasoning:

Phase weapons pass freely through nonliving auras, but damage things with living auras. Borgs have tiny living auras compared to full biilogics, but living auras, nonetheless. Therefore, phase weapons do MDC damage to their cybernetic compenents.

It holds together about as well as wet cardboard, but while you're picking it apart, I'll just throw down a smoke bomb and introduce 2nd stage promethian ninja time lord wizards.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by The Beast »

Axelmania wrote:An interesting question: what do phase beakers do regarding cyber armor turnednalive at level 5+ for knights? Roll AR to see which is damaged?

armor Bizarre?

KC even if it was an unpaid intern, Pallasium is effectively employing anybody who produces off-forum website material.


IMO, Armor Bizarre should count as either a magic barrier or a living organism, and block the beam in either case.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by cosmicfish »

At the end of the day, does anyone really want a one-shot kill weapon against every single borg? Logically (ha ha) you could probably argue that phase weapons should tear through borgs like tissue, but it effectively removes borgs from any game with phase weapons.

So let them have some aura or whatever.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Nightmask »

cosmicfish wrote:At the end of the day, does anyone really want a one-shot kill weapon against every single borg? Logically (ha ha) you could probably argue that phase weapons should tear through borgs like tissue, but it effectively removes borgs from any game with phase weapons.

So let them have some aura or whatever.


It's a pretty much one-shot weapon against people in power armor or vehicles as well, what about them? Maybe the borg should suffer the same fears as everyone else on the remote chance phase weapons show up, have to actually spend money on systems to protect against phase weapons just like everyone else instead of getting protection the rest don't get. Seriously, 'oh I'm a big bad borg I don't have to fear anything in my MDC body! Wait, I have to fear Phase Beamers like everyone else?! No that can't be right I'm a borg I'm supposed to be special and not have to worry about stuff like that! I can't be treated like any other flesh and blood creature having to worry about this rare weapon it shouldn't be able to hurt me either!'
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by dreicunan »

Nightmask wrote:
cosmicfish wrote:At the end of the day, does anyone really want a one-shot kill weapon against every single borg? Logically (ha ha) you could probably argue that phase weapons should tear through borgs like tissue, but it effectively removes borgs from any game with phase weapons.

So let them have some aura or whatever.


It's a pretty much one-shot weapon against people in power armor or vehicles as well, what about them? Maybe the borg should suffer the same fears as everyone else on the remote chance phase weapons show up, have to actually spend money on systems to protect against phase weapons just like everyone else instead of getting protection the rest don't get. Seriously, 'oh I'm a big bad borg I don't have to fear anything in my MDC body! Wait, I have to fear Phase Beamers like everyone else?! No that can't be right I'm a borg I'm supposed to be special and not have to worry about stuff like that! I can't be treated like any other flesh and blood creature having to worry about this rare weapon it shouldn't be able to hurt me either!'
Kevin S clearly disagrees with you.

Also, phase weapons are not pretty much one shot kill weapons against people in power armor or vehicles unless they have terribly low hp and sdc combined. The Robot Pilot OCC (standard power armor trooper) has both Body Building and Running, so including those at first level it gives an average of 15 hp and 32.5 sdc with no other physical skills that boost sdc taken. I forget if there is a more powerful phase weapon in later books, but in Phase World the strongest damage from a phase weapon against sdc is 4d6, so to do a one shot you would need a max damage critical hit. I don't see "statistically least likely outcome" (tied only with a crit that rolls all ones for damage) being sufficiently frequent to justify the claim that it is "pretty much" a one shot kill. It would on average take 4 shots to kill them.
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Re: Borgs verses phase weapons

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote:>unsupported, unvetted, and uninformed opinions

Putting it on the site is support.


So's a bra, but not the kind of support that I was referring to.

Source on unvetted?


The fact that so many of the faq answers conflict with the official material in the books.
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