Borgs verses phase weapons

[Nightmask]

Good posts, as always, Prysus.



My view:
If there was a law firm that had on their website a "Frequently Asked Legal Questions" section,
If they had those questions answered by volunteers without any law degree,
If those volunteers sometimes--when confronted by a question that they personally knew of no legal answer to--simply made up new laws that didn't exist anywhere on the official books,
Then I would agree that those volunteers would count as representatives of the law firm in question, for the purposes of any lawsuit against the firm based on the poor/inaccurate quality of the FALQ.

But their answers would still be rather meaningless when it came to determining what the law actually is, technically "official" or not.

Sure, but the law firm doesn't determine what the law is. Palladium does determine what the rules of Palladium games are.

Right--Palladium.
Not random volunteers who often don't know what they're talking about, even if Palladium posts their thoughts.
Again, the current FAQ is answered by consensus of forum posters who show up to give their opinions.
It has zero bearing on what Palladium's rules are.

No, now you're doubling back and ignoring my initial post. I've already covered that.

If there's a FAQ on the Palladium website, and it's on its own page or stickied or whatever, and appears to look official, then it basically is official. What happened behind the curtain to get the FAQ up there is irrelevant. This wasn't something that was posted for 3 days after their site was hacked until they could get it taken down. This is something that has existed for well over a decade, as I understand it. Palladium is either well aware of it, or they should be well aware of it. There's tacit approval there by the company.

Again why?
You wanting something to be canon doesn't make it canon.
Simply because Palladium made it available does not make it official. To be official it needs to be, wait for it, declared official.
That is why some things ARE stated to be official. Because the default condition is that things are not official.

You NOT wanting something to be canon doesn't make it not canon either.

Yes when Palladium posts something on its site unless it explicitly says it isn't official it's official. NOBODY goes onto a site, sees a section labeled FAQ and thinks 'well those answers to those questions aren't canon, it doesn't say that they're official' because the default is that they ARE in fact official answers/responses regarding those questions. It's the entire POINT of a FAQ section, to give official answers to frequently asked questions so people can find the official answer to them in a convenient location.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yes when Palladium posts something on its site unless it explicitly says it isn't official it's official. NOBODY goes onto a site, sees a section labeled FAQ and thinks 'well those answers to those questions aren't canon, it doesn't say that they're official' because the default is that they ARE in fact official answers/responses regarding those questions. It's the entire POINT of a FAQ section, to give official answers to frequently asked questions so people can find the official answer to them in a convenient location.

So when you, myself, and other people on the forum get together to argue about a frequently asked question,
and a Mod picks an answer that somebody here said,
that's "official."
Whether or not it agrees with the books.

Cool.

What does that mean to you, though, that it's "official?"
Do you think that Palladium has added our opinions to their rules canon?
Do you think that Kevin and other staffers will play the way we've said?
Do you think that anybody who disagrees with our ruling is "cheating" or "houseruling" if they don't go with our decree...?

[Axelmania]

viewforum.php?f=44 has viewtopic.php?f=44&t=114595 with Mack saying:

Some folks occassionally ask whether or not the answers provided in this FAQ are true and canonical. The short answer is: They're not. But hold on a second! Don't just discard it.

That said, "this FAQ" applies to the forum FAQ, the one hosted on the main site seems more authoritative. If it wasn't, it would just be imported here with the 2nd class FAQ.

[Killer Cyborg]

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=44 has viewtopic.php?f=44&t=114595 with Mack saying:

Some folks occassionally ask whether or not the answers provided in this FAQ are true and canonical. The short answer is: They're not. But hold on a second! Don't just discard it.

That said, "this FAQ" applies to the forum FAQ, the one hosted on the main site seems more authoritative. If it wasn't, it would just be imported here with the 2nd class FAQ.

The one hosted on the main site is the Old FAQ, which is linked to on the page that you've cited.
If you follow that link, it'll take you to a page that proclaims it as a Fan FAQ.

[Eagle]

I've already covered that, adequately.
You can argue that it's "official," but it's not any kind of official that matters.
Unless you are trying to claim that the FAQs DO affect the official (canon) rules of the game?

If the US government had a fan-written FAQ on their website--whether it was titled Fan-FAQ or not--do you believe that would alter US law?

The question on the US government is tricky, because it could affect certain aspects of US law.

Now, the government has clearly defined procedures for how its laws are created. People are taught the basics of those procedures in school, and people living in this country are expected to have a certain understanding of that. A FAQ on the US Fish and Wildlife website declaring that next Wednesday is The Purge, where all crime is legal, isn't actually going to make it so. People's general knowledge of how the government works would lead a normal, average person to conclude that the website was in error.

On the other hand, a FAQ on the US Fish and Wildlife website telling you how to apply for a hunting license in Yellowstone National Park could indeed alter US law. One of my areas of practice is to sue various government agencies when they don't follow their own published administrative rules. If I had a client who had followed the instructions on a government website, who was then denied whatever he had applied for, we could sue the agency for that. And we generally have success in issues that are somewhat related to your example.

--

Canonicity is a really ridiculous idea when it comes to Palladium games. They change their rules all the time. Their published characters don't always follow the rules of the book. Kevin Siembieda's author notes in the books seem to change how rules are to be applied all the time. A published FAQ on their website seems to be as legitimate as any of the other crap they publish. The least valuable info to me is "oh yeah, I talked to Kevin at a convention, and he said XYZ". Not only do I not necessarily believe a random internet guy, but I also don't think an offhand comment by the creator of the game is particularly valuable. Off the cuff comments don't require the same level of thought or analysis that a full book would require.

The question of whether a "Fan FAQ" is "official" brings a lot of other related questions with it. Does it look official? Would a random kid who just bought his first Rifts book, and went to the Palladium website, think this was something from the company? What does it even mean to be official, or canon? Remember that the owner of the company has (allegedly) said that he doesn't even use the rules as published. You're wanting clear rules answers from a company that is legendary for contradictory statements and confusion.

[eliakon]

Again why?
You wanting something to be canon doesn't make it canon.
Simply because Palladium made it available does not make it official. To be official it needs to be, wait for it, declared official.
That is why some things ARE stated to be official. Because the default condition is that things are not official.

You NOT wanting something to be canon doesn't make it not canon either.

Yes when Palladium posts something on its site unless it explicitly says it isn't official it's official. NOBODY goes onto a site, sees a section labeled FAQ and thinks 'well those answers to those questions aren't canon, it doesn't say that they're official' because the default is that they ARE in fact official answers/responses regarding those questions. It's the entire POINT of a FAQ section, to give official answers to frequently asked questions so people can find the official answer to them in a convenient location.

Lets, for the sake of discussion, say you are right.
And that the FAQ WAS official, when it went up
AFAIK It predates RUE
That means that RUE is the most recent rule
Since RUE says that they do NOT have HP, going back to a previous rule does nothing.
That rule changed.
So in the end even if the FAQ was canon (Which I don't believe it was since many of its answers conflicted with published canon, and it was explicitly from non canon sources and was even called a fan-faq)...
...it still wouldn't matter because it has been overruled by later material

[eliakon]

I've already covered that, adequately.
You can argue that it's "official," but it's not any kind of official that matters.
Unless you are trying to claim that the FAQs DO affect the official (canon) rules of the game?

If the US government had a fan-written FAQ on their website--whether it was titled Fan-FAQ or not--do you believe that would alter US law?

The question on the US government is tricky, because it could affect certain aspects of US law.

No it couldn't.
It could change administrative POLICY, but it can not change the LAW.
Only Congress can change the law.
Period.

Now, the government has clearly defined procedures for how its laws are created. People are taught the basics of those procedures in school, and people living in this country are expected to have a certain understanding of that. A FAQ on the US Fish and Wildlife website declaring that next Wednesday is The Purge, where all crime is legal, isn't actually going to make it so. People's general knowledge of how the government works would lead a normal, average person to conclude that the website was in error.

On the other hand, a FAQ on the US Fish and Wildlife website telling you how to apply for a hunting license in Yellowstone National Park could indeed alter US law. One of my areas of practice is to sue various government agencies when they don't follow their own published administrative rules. If I had a client who had followed the instructions on a government website, who was then denied whatever he had applied for, we could sue the agency for that. And we generally have success in issues that are somewhat related to your example.

Again you are mixing apples and oranges
KC was not talking about Adminstrative Rules was he?
He said "Law" and thus talking about something other than laws is... well it is a logical dodge and fallacy.
The US Fish and Wildlife department can't change the law.
They do not make laws
Now if they had a FAQ that had the wrong laws up you might be mistaken...
...but that still would not CHANGE the law. At best it would mean that your case would be thrown out in court if you were prosecuted for breaking the actual law.

--

Canonicity is a really ridiculous idea when it comes to Palladium games. They change their rules all the time. Their published characters don't always follow the rules of the book. Kevin Siembieda's author notes in the books seem to change how rules are to be applied all the time. A published FAQ on their website seems to be as legitimate as any of the other crap they publish. The least valuable info to me is "oh yeah, I talked to Kevin at a convention, and he said XYZ". Not only do I not necessarily believe a random internet guy, but I also don't think an offhand comment by the creator of the game is particularly valuable. Off the cuff comments don't require the same level of thought or analysis that a full book would require.

The question of whether a "Fan FAQ" is "official" brings a lot of other related questions with it. Does it look official? Would a random kid who just bought his first Rifts book, and went to the Palladium website, think this was something from the company? What does it even mean to be official, or canon? Remember that the owner of the company has (allegedly) said that he doesn't even use the rules as published. You're wanting clear rules answers from a company that is legendary for contradictory statements and confusion.

If you don't want to believe in Canonicity then that is fine...
...why are you arguing it?
No seriously, if your position is that it doesn't exist, why are you spending time arguing that other peoples positions are wrong?
Especially if you are going to be rude and dismissive of the game, the publisher and its staff.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've already covered that, adequately.
You can argue that it's "official," but it's not any kind of official that matters.
Unless you are trying to claim that the FAQs DO affect the official (canon) rules of the game?

If the US government had a fan-written FAQ on their website--whether it was titled Fan-FAQ or not--do you believe that would alter US law?

The question on the US government is tricky, because it could affect certain aspects of US law.

Now, the government has clearly defined procedures for how its laws are created. People are taught the basics of those procedures in school, and people living in this country are expected to have a certain understanding of that. A FAQ on the US Fish and Wildlife website declaring that next Wednesday is The Purge, where all crime is legal, isn't actually going to make it so. People's general knowledge of how the government works would lead a normal, average person to conclude that the website was in error.

On the other hand, a FAQ on the US Fish and Wildlife website telling you how to apply for a hunting license in Yellowstone National Park could indeed alter US law. One of my areas of practice is to sue various government agencies when they don't follow their own published administrative rules. If I had a client who had followed the instructions on a government website, who was then denied whatever he had applied for, we could sue the agency for that. And we generally have success in issues that are somewhat related to your example.

Sounds like it's not the FAQ that would alter the laws, but rather the ensuing lawsuit(s) over the FAQ's inaccuracy.

Canonicity is a really ridiculous idea when it comes to Palladium games.

They change their rules all the time.

Their canon changes all the time.

Their published characters don't always follow the rules of the book.

They don't have to.

Kevin Siembieda's author notes in the books seem to change how rules are to be applied all the time.

You lost me.

A published FAQ on their website seems to be as legitimate as any of the other crap they publish.

No.

The least valuable info to me is "oh yeah, I talked to Kevin at a convention, and he said XYZ". Not only do I not necessarily believe a random internet guy, but I also don't think an offhand comment by the creator of the game is particularly valuable. Off the cuff comments don't require the same level of thought or analysis that a full book would require.

I'll take off-the-cuff comments by the creator of the game over off-the-cuff comments by random fans, at least when it comes to determining official rules and interpretations.

The question of whether a "Fan FAQ" is "official" brings a lot of other related questions with it. Does it look official? Would a random kid who just bought his first Rifts book, and went to the Palladium website, think this was something from the company? What does it even mean to be official, or canon? Remember that the owner of the company has (allegedly) said that he doesn't even use the rules as published. You're wanting clear rules answers from a company that is legendary for contradictory statements and confusion.

Sure, we can philosophize all day over stuff like that.
But the only relevant question is "Does the FAQ affect the actual rules of the game?"
And the only reasonable answer is "No."

[Eagle]

No it couldn't.
It could change administrative POLICY, but it can not change the LAW.
Only Congress can change the law.
Period.

Congress has been able to delegate administrative rulemaking power for the last century. It has the force of law. In fact, it is law. This was a hot topic in the legal community back in about 1910. Congress passes the statutes, but they delegate the specific implementation to the executive.

As far as why I'm on this thread, I was pointing out that regardless of the origin of the FAQ, when Palladium puts it on their website and leaves it up for a decade or more, it has a strong similarity to the concept of agency in civil law. Of course I highly doubt that Palladium is going to get sued because someone detrimentally relied on their FAQ. But in any circumstance with real world consequences, having information related to the use of your product on your company website makes it appear as though it's official.

I just thought it was an interesting aside, but then you and your arch-nemesis decided to join forces to argue with me about it.

[Alrik Vas]

As far as why I'm on this thread, I was pointing out that regardless of the origin of the FAQ, when Palladium puts it on their website and leaves it up for a decade or more, it has a strong similarity to the concept of agency in civil law. Of course I highly doubt that Palladium is going to get sued because someone detrimentally relied on their FAQ. But in any circumstance with real world consequences, having information related to the use of your product on your company website makes it appear as though it's official.

I just thought it was an interesting aside, but then you and your arch-nemesis decided to join forces to argue with me about it.

Bold for the part I agree with.

Though I've known this isn't the case in reality for a long time, because I bothered to ask. I understand that's not an expectation of most, though. Unfortunately once you get the know the company, you learn not to trust something written 10 or more years ago.

[eliakon]

No it couldn't.
It could change administrative POLICY, but it can not change the LAW.
Only Congress can change the law.
Period.

Congress has been able to delegate administrative rulemaking power for the last century. It has the force of law. In fact, it is law. This was a hot topic in the legal community back in about 1910. Congress passes the statutes, but they delegate the specific implementation to the executive.

As far as why I'm on this thread, I was pointing out that regardless of the origin of the FAQ, when Palladium puts it on their website and leaves it up for a decade or more, it has a strong similarity to the concept of agency in civil law. Of course I highly doubt that Palladium is going to get sued because someone detrimentally relied on their FAQ. But in any circumstance with real world consequences, having information related to the use of your product on your company website makes it appear as though it's official.

I just thought it was an interesting aside, but then you and your arch-nemesis decided to join forces to argue with me about it.

Arguing about something that is wrong just because it is 'interesting" isn't a valid reason though.
So we are still left with the question of WHY you were trying to argue that an outdated rule was more valid that the current one.
I would think that as a lawyer you would understand the concept of "this law rule is invalid because it has been superseded by the new one" It isn't a very hard concept.
The rule on the FAQ, regardless of its dubious canon status is utterly, totally, and completely irrelevant. Because RUE says that it is.
It doesn't matter what sort of legal shenanigans you want to pull, or the verbal sophistry you want to try...
...the rule has been revised. Ergo, the rule has been revised.
It really is that simple.
RUE is the most recent rule. Ergo RUE is the rule that we go with. Unless and until there is a newer rule that contradicts the rule in RUE, the rule in RUE stands.

[Zer0 Kay]

I've already covered that, adequately.
You can argue that it's "official," but it's not any kind of official that matters.
Unless you are trying to claim that the FAQs DO affect the official (canon) rules of the game?

If the US government had a fan-written FAQ on their website--whether it was titled Fan-FAQ or not--do you believe that would alter US law?

The question on the US government is tricky, because it could affect certain aspects of US law.

Now, the government has clearly defined procedures for how its laws are created. People are taught the basics of those procedures in school, and people living in this country are expected to have a certain understanding of that. A FAQ on the US Fish and Wildlife website declaring that next Wednesday is The Purge, where all crime is legal, isn't actually going to make it so. People's general knowledge of how the government works would lead a normal, average person to conclude that the website was in error.

On the other hand, a FAQ on the US Fish and Wildlife website telling you how to apply for a hunting license in Yellowstone National Park could indeed alter US law. One of my areas of practice is to sue various government agencies when they don't follow their own published administrative rules. If I had a client who had followed the instructions on a government website, who was then denied whatever he had applied for, we could sue the agency for that. And we generally have success in issues that are somewhat related to your example.

--

Canonicity is a really ridiculous idea when it comes to Palladium games. They change their rules all the time. Their published characters don't always follow the rules of the book. Kevin Siembieda's author notes in the books seem to change how rules are to be applied all the time. A published FAQ on their website seems to be as legitimate as any of the other crap they publish. The least valuable info to me is "oh yeah, I talked to Kevin at a convention, and he said XYZ". Not only do I not necessarily believe a random internet guy, but I also don't think an offhand comment by the creator of the game is particularly valuable. Off the cuff comments don't require the same level of thought or analysis that a full book would require.

The question of whether a "Fan FAQ" is "official" brings a lot of other related questions with it. Does it look official? Would a random kid who just bought his first Rifts book, and went to the Palladium website, think this was something from the company? What does it even mean to be official, or canon? Remember that the owner of the company has (allegedly) said that he doesn't even use the rules as published. You're wanting clear rules answers from a company that is legendary for contradictory statements and confusion.

WAIT so that FAQ written by a fan of the U.S. Constitution about desperation of Church and state in support of a certain Baptist church's freedoms and something about desperation of Church and state had no effect on U.S. law since Congress didn't alter the constitution even though the judicial branch sites the guy as the source but twists the purpose? Using a government influenced by the people as an example of suggested rules by "fans" never being canon is probably not a good choice.

[The Beast]

While it's not Rifts, I'd like to point out that the HUGMG states on page 12 that FCB only roll PE to determine how long they can survive in a coma.

[Eagle]

WAIT so that FAQ written by a fan of the U.S. Constitution about desperation of Church and state in support of a certain Baptist church's freedoms and something about desperation of Church and state had no effect on U.S. law since Congress didn't alter the constitution even though the judicial branch sites the guy as the source but twists the purpose? Using a government influenced by the people as an example of suggested rules by "fans" never being canon is probably not a good choice.

I... I really don't know what this means.

[Library Ogre]

So, let's assume, for a moment, that Phase Weapons will quickly and easily kill any full conversion cyborg... just score a spinal or brain hit and BOOM. Dead cyborg.

How greatly is a holdout phase beamer feared by a wolfen quatoria? Given that such weapons exist in the world that quatoria operate in, how (aside from constant force fields) does a quatoria protect himself from being instagibbed? How effective would a dual-purpose skin-stripper (something that does enough damage to remove the quatoria's skincoat) and phase beamer be at popping a dog robocop?

I would still like an answer to this. I think it is a more pertinent question than wrangling about the FAQ.

[The Beast]

So, let's assume, for a moment, that Phase Weapons will quickly and easily kill any full conversion cyborg... just score a spinal or brain hit and BOOM. Dead cyborg.

How greatly is a holdout phase beamer feared by a wolfen quatoria? Given that such weapons exist in the world that quatoria operate in, how (aside from constant force fields) does a quatoria protect himself from being instagibbed? How effective would a dual-purpose skin-stripper (something that does enough damage to remove the quatoria's skincoat) and phase beamer be at popping a dog robocop?

I would still like an answer to this. I think it is a more pertinent question than wrangling about the FAQ.

If you did run it as p-beamers being insta-kills vs borgs Naruni should see a definite uptick in their sales of personal force fields.

[Eagle]

So, let's assume, for a moment, that Phase Weapons will quickly and easily kill any full conversion cyborg... just score a spinal or brain hit and BOOM. Dead cyborg.

How greatly is a holdout phase beamer feared by a wolfen quatoria? Given that such weapons exist in the world that quatoria operate in, how (aside from constant force fields) does a quatoria protect himself from being instagibbed? How effective would a dual-purpose skin-stripper (something that does enough damage to remove the quatoria's skincoat) and phase beamer be at popping a dog robocop?

I would still like an answer to this. I think it is a more pertinent question than wrangling about the FAQ.

I can't perfectly respond to it (not familiar enough with the wolfen quatoria, or whatever the hell a skincoat is), but in general I don't think it changes anything. Every soldier or cop alive today understands that they could be killed by a single bullet, and guns are very common. All of human civilization has occurred with the threat that you might get killed by a lucky shot. With borgs, you're well protected against 99% of the weapons out there. The fact that there's a pretty rare weapon that just puts you "back to normal" probably wouldn't cause a flood of orders for force field systems.

From an empire perspective, I have an interest in keeping my soldiers alive. But I don't really need to equip every borg I've got with every possible defense against relatively rare weaponry. You just recognize that you're going to lose a few borgs to weapons like this, but as long as your armies aren't 100% borgs, you should be fine.

[Library Ogre]

I can't perfectly respond to it (not familiar enough with the wolfen quatoria, or whatever the hell a skincoat is), but in general I don't think it changes anything. Every soldier or cop alive today understands that they could be killed by a single bullet, and guns are very common. All of human civilization has occurred with the threat that you might get killed by a lucky shot. With borgs, you're well protected against 99% of the weapons out there. The fact that there's a pretty rare weapon that just puts you "back to normal" probably wouldn't cause a flood of orders for force field systems.

From an empire perspective, I have an interest in keeping my soldiers alive. But I don't really need to equip every borg I've got with every possible defense against relatively rare weaponry. You just recognize that you're going to lose a few borgs to weapons like this, but as long as your armies aren't 100% borgs, you should be fine.

A wolfen quatoria is essentially a Wolfen who's been made into a Terminator to better serve as a space sheriff. They're living tissue over a metal endoskeleton. Since they appear in the same book as phase weapons, I'm also guessing you don't know anything about phase weapons, so they're weapons which ignore non-living barriers, except for force fields. Shoot an unharmed quatoria with one, you damage the meat. If the quatoria has lost its living tissue, it's not much different from a standard borg. And, since Quatoria are Star Marshalls, and Phase Weapons are noted as being popular with pirates, and not particularly rare, the question is not moot.

[Eagle]

I can't perfectly respond to it (not familiar enough with the wolfen quatoria, or whatever the hell a skincoat is), but in general I don't think it changes anything. Every soldier or cop alive today understands that they could be killed by a single bullet, and guns are very common. All of human civilization has occurred with the threat that you might get killed by a lucky shot. With borgs, you're well protected against 99% of the weapons out there. The fact that there's a pretty rare weapon that just puts you "back to normal" probably wouldn't cause a flood of orders for force field systems.

From an empire perspective, I have an interest in keeping my soldiers alive. But I don't really need to equip every borg I've got with every possible defense against relatively rare weaponry. You just recognize that you're going to lose a few borgs to weapons like this, but as long as your armies aren't 100% borgs, you should be fine.

A wolfen quatoria is essentially a Wolfen who's been made into a Terminator to better serve as a space sheriff. They're living tissue over a metal endoskeleton. Since they appear in the same book as phase weapons, I'm also guessing you don't know anything about phase weapons, so they're weapons which ignore non-living barriers, except for force fields. Shoot an unharmed quatoria with one, you damage the meat. If the quatoria has lost its living tissue, it's not much different from a standard borg. And, since Quatoria are Star Marshalls, and Phase Weapons are noted as being popular with pirates, and not particularly rare, the question is not moot.

Nah, I know what phase weapons are. I've always found Wolfen to be catastrophically uninteresting, and so I completely avoided reading anything about them. Weird guns, on the other hand, are cool and attract my interest.

I'd say the presence of borgs as space marshalls would give pirates a very good reason to like phase weapons. That kind of thing can help give you a fighting chance. But I'd also say that a terminator-like covering would stop the phase pistol before it hit the important brain-ey goodness.

[Axelmania]

You would think CCW would foot the bill to outfit Quatotia with Borg naruni fields (double MDC like bots) but it isn't mentioned.

I don't care how much indentured servitude they do, cannot deny the tactical advantage of that MDC.

They can also wear Borg armor but if undercover MDC trenchcoats are more likely. Thus why force fields would be so useful.

Any Wolfen sized power armor a quatoria could wear?

RUE says that they do NOT have HP

I do not recall a quote being provided saying that. Only that they are MDC and this protects them against direct to HP attacks.

[Killer Cyborg]

You would think CCW would foot the bill to outfit Quatotia with Borg naruni fields (double MDC like bots) but it isn't mentioned.

I don't care how much indentured servitude they do, cannot deny the tactical advantage of that MDC.

They can also wear Borg armor but if undercover MDC trenchcoats are more likely. Thus why force fields would be so useful.

Any Wolfen sized power armor a quatoria could wear?

RUE says that they do NOT have HP

I do not recall a quote being provided saying that. Only that they are MDC and this protects them against direct to HP attacks.

RUE stats that Borgs are MDC beings.
MDC beings by definition do not have Hit Points.
Therefore, Borgs do not have Hit Points.

[Axelmania]

Which definition is that though? From an old "outdated" book perhaps?

[Killer Cyborg]

Which definition is that though? From an old "outdated" book perhaps?

Why? What's the newest definition you've got...?

[guardiandashi]

Which definition is that though? From an old "outdated" book perhaps?

Why? What's the newest definition you've got...?

I believe its from the "outdated" RUE IE the most up to date core rule book.

[Axelmania]

So where in RUE does it say MDC beings cannot have HP too?

How are MDC earth Warlocks supposed to make golems?

[Killer Cyborg]

So where in RUE does it say MDC beings cannot have HP too?

RUE 355 (Emphasis added)
Demons and supernatural beings... have MDC instead of Hit Points and SDC.
and
Creatures of magic... are also Mega-Damage creatures with MDC instead of SDC and Hit Points.

Also,
RUE 346
Living creatures such as demons, dragons and other inhuman beings may also have MDC; it represents their physical resistance to Mega-Damage and makes them supremely powerful on Rifts Earth. All the MDC of a living being must be reduced to zero before it falls into a coma and will die without regenerative powers or medical treatment.

Note that a MDC being that runs out of MDC--NOT HP--will fall into a coma and die.
This would make sense, since they have MDC instead of Hit Points.
It would not make sense if they had Hit Points in addition to MDC.

How are MDC earth Warlocks supposed to make golems?

GM's call.
Since they would have MDC instead of Hit Points, they might be able to spend MDC instead of Hit Points.
Or they might not.

[Vrykolas2k]

Borgs are considered MDC creatures now. I don't remember which book lists that change, but it was as a result of phase weapons being introduced. My group at the time just used the SDC/HP values for the head out of the CoMW book.

Rue states they are MDC well after phase weapons, but FCB where always listed with MDC not hp. The issue is this rule/faq does not state they have hp in general just that for the intent of phase weapons they have a X hp. So is written as kind of a special case, full conversion borgs where always listed as MDC but only when a phase weapon is used do they have HP for the purpose of a phase weapon damaging them. The only time I have ever seen any thing address a FCB HP is that ruling for phase weapons.

(most FCB do not have PE so it amounts to 1d4 hp per level)

Or it means that an Full Conversion Borg has the PE it had before it became a full conversion borg. That may need to be determined on the spot if it was never rolled.

It makes one wonder if the Wolfen Quatoria having sdc skin was a stealth countermeasure agaisnt phase weapons.

That said, I'd probably rule that since the borg is a living being, a fusion of man and machine, the borg body would not be bypassed and would take MD from the phase weapon (but any borg armor worn would be bypassed).

Except of course that they aren't living beings, they're machines that happen to have a living brain plugged into them, if you can't have a headjack and plug into a vehicle or power armor and render it alive installing the brain as a less removable component shouldn't either.

Yes, they're still living beings. They just have a different biomechanical system now. So the phase weapons do MDC to them, since they no longer have HP/SDC.
See how simple that is?

[Axelmania]

SNs/CoMs not all MDC

[The Beast]

Your point?

[Killer Cyborg]

SNs/CoMs not all MDC

Uh... Dude, that's like the least complete response ever.
Are you ok?

In any case,
(And read the whole response before responding to any part)
RUE 355 specifies Creature of Magic, Demons, and Supernatural Beings, yes.
So you could try to technically argue that we don't know if it works the same way with Borgs.
It would be needlessly multiplying entities, because you'd be looking at:
Demons are MDC creatures, and are impervious to HP attacks because they don't have HP.
Creatures of Magic are MDC creatures, and are impervious to HP attacks because they don't have HP.
Supernatural Beingsare MDC creatures, and are impervious to HP attacks because they don't have HP.
Borgs are MDC creatures, and are impervious to HP attacks for some unrelated, unspecified reason.

It doesn't fit the obvious pattern, and it creates a hole where there's no reason to have one.
Just from 355, the clear answer is that Borgs are MDC creatures, and are impervious to HP attacks because they don't have HP, just like other MDC creatures that are impervious to HP attacks.

But that doesn't really matter, because RUE 346 covers Borgs anyway.
It's under the description of the term MDC:
Living creatures... may also have MDC... All the MDC of a living being must be reduced to zero before it falls into a coma and will die...

Borgs are living creatures that have MDC.
When a Borg's MDC is depleted, it will fall into a coma and die... which wouldn't happen if it had HP.

Then there's RUE 288:
MDC is the Mega-Damage Capacity and indicates how much Mega-Damage an object or creature can withstand before being destroyed.
When you run out of MDC, you are destroyed.
Because MDC replaces HP, so you don't have any HP left over.

[Axelmania]

Crashes make long responses unattractive on tablet. MDC protects against direct to HP attacks. Some (does not say all) CoM/supies lacking HP doesn't mean all MDC lack it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Crashes make long responses unattractive on tablet. MDC protects against direct to HP attacks. Some (does not say all) CoM/supies lacking HP doesn't mean all MDC lack it.

Come up with something that hasn't been addressed.

[Jefffar]

This one appears to have been run into the ground.