Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

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rem1093
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Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by rem1093 »

When using energy blades, such as the Wilks laser blade, can you use spells and abilitys designed for melee weapons on them? I always thought that they would work with vibro or plasma because there is a physical blade. With the fields just adding to the damage.
I'm asking because we have a Magebane in our group, but also I going to bring in Solid energy blades into the game.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

I think it is allowed.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

rem1093 wrote:When using energy blades, such as the Wilks laser blade, can you use spells and abilities designed for melee weapons on them? I always thought that they would work with vibro or plasma because there is a physical blade. With the fields just adding to the damage.
I'm asking because we have a Magebane in our group, but also I going to bring in Solid energy blades into the game.

I would say yes to every energy blade, except the energy blades like the wilks ""laser knife"" would work normally with blade enhancing magic.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by rem1093 »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
rem1093 wrote:When using energy blades, such as the Wilks laser blade, can you use spells and abilities designed for melee weapons on them? I always thought that they would work with vibro or plasma because there is a physical blade. With the fields just adding to the damage.
I'm asking because we have a Magebane in our group, but also I going to bring in Solid energy blades into the game.

I would say yes to every energy blade, except the laser rods Wilks has advertised as blades.


But isn't that every Wilks blade, such the laser knife? And what about other pure energy based blades, like the lightblade or the TW flame blade. What is the difference between casting say, Spinning blades, on a Wilks laser knife and the lightblade?
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

rem1093 wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
rem1093 wrote:When using energy blades, such as the Wilks laser blade, can you use spells and abilities designed for melee weapons on them? I always thought that they would work with vibro or plasma because there is a physical blade. With the fields just adding to the damage.
I'm asking because we have a Magebane in our group, but also I going to bring in Solid energy blades into the game.

I would say yes to every energy blade, except the laser rods Wilks has advertised as blades.


But isn't that every Wilks blade, such the laser knife? And what about other pure energy based blades, like the lightblade or the TW flame blade. What is the difference between casting say, Spinning blades, on a Wilks laser knife and the lightblade?

Yes, the wilks knife.
Those are magic blades, and the text is deficent in that it neglected to say if they could parry things. TW Flame Blade…..in both the RMB & RUE there is no text indicating which way, parry or no. (The same is true with the Alchemist Flame Blades too) This will give GMs to be ether nice or mean/evil to unsuspecting Players.) Lightblade….looking at the core spell the only thing it specificly says it can parry is energy attacks. No text ether way if it can parry physical attacks.
In all three (four) it looks like the writer assumed that they would act just like normal swords.
Why? They are Magic!
Spinning blades…..the wilks ""laser blades"" have an auto-shut off feature.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by eliakon »

Err
I thought the Laser Rod, Laser Scalpel, Laser Sword, etc. were all different items.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Mlp7029 »

Don't the Wilks laser "blades" say they can't parry other weapons?
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by eliakon »

Mlp7029 wrote:Don't the Wilks laser "blades" say they can't parry other weapons?

The Laser Sword says that.
The Laser Scalpel doesn't... but it is pretty small so that may or may not be relevant and I have seen GMs rule both ways.

In my games, my house rule is "laser blades" (and yes, I know that the term is sci-fan of the softest kind... this is Rifts so it fits) don't parry they just damage stuff. Where as the energy blades from stuff like Aliens Unlimited are more 'solid' and can parry.
For what that is worth.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The Wilks Laser Scalpel is already a real world item and anyone can google it up to get an idea of what it is. And was a nice good science based piece of equipment till the new west book came out. Then with the WLK text it became stupid since the WLK said that it is like the WLS writ large.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by dreicunan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Laser Scalpel is already a real world item and anyone can google it up to get an idea of what it is. Thus discounting any presentation calling it a blade.
Wilks laser 'as advertised' knife is just a laser rod with a fancy ranging activation switch.
This is a situation of me calling a Ms Dolittle ….Ms Dolittle, instead of calling her Lady Dolittle.

laser sword???? where in a rifts book??
The way you present it, it is just a bigger laser rod with the ranging sensor 'on switch' that has the range set for longer.

Laser Sword - Merc Ops page 104. Clearly described as having a 3 foot visible blade when activated. Considering that the laser cane in New West that comes right after the Laser knife is described as essentially being a laser rod, I'm not sure why you think the knife would be one. Both knife and sword have a visible laser being projected to a set length. The knife's blade is a "stable laser field" and the sword is explicitly stated to have a blade. So it appears that this is a situation of you incorrectly using the term "laser rod" in the context of Rifts, since laser rods do not produce stable laser fields or blades that one can wave about, but instead laser beams of the same kind as a laser pistol or laser rifle.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Merc Ops…..hummm… one of the few books I don't have.

Because I know enough of the basic physics governing light is why I know that the description is for fanboys. Giving them something flashy.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

eliakon wrote:Err
I thought the Laser Rod, Laser Scalpel, Laser Sword, etc. were all different items.

Yes. However it should be noted that the Laser Sword is considered to be a more powerful form of the Laser Knife, which is explicitly stated to be derived from the laser scalpel.

drewkitty wrote:I would say yes to every energy blade, except the laser rods Wilks has advertised as blades.

I don't think "glorified laser rod" is what we have with the Wilk's Laser Blades. All a Laser Rod is megaversally, is a laser "gun" (as evidenced by the fact it uses WP: E-Pistol). What the Wilk's Laser Blade-types (Scalpel, Knife, Sword) really likely amount to is an evolution of their laser torches, since:
-they can all run continuously for minutes at a time off their portable power pack (no Eclip powered Rod/Pistol can match that AFAIK)
-Though we are told the blades are evolution of the scalpel (which has a range of 6"), which has a reach the same as the Laser knife, and the Torch is ideal for a few feet (which can be read as 3ft IMHO) but can reach out to 10ft (for the sword).
-the torch can be used to "cut" things, you can't do that with a laser rod

About the only thing they have in common is the "hilt" of the blade-types amounts to a rod, but that's hardly enough to qualify them as a rod IMHO.

drewkitty wrote:The Laser Scalpel is already a real world item and anyone can google it up to get an idea of what it is. Thus discounting any presentation calling it a blade.

This presumes that the Rifts version of a laser scalpel works like its real world counterpart. Nothing says it does or doesn't I admit, but given a few other examples of technology not working like their real world counter part, the notion has to at least be considered.

We also don't know what this "stable laser field" business mentioned would amount to in real world physics (it is possible to "freeze" light photons), or the specific mechanisim for how they are able to make the beam/blade visible. Those two factors regarding the knife (and by extension sword) IMHO leave open the possibility that there is an actual "blade" for the Knife/Sword, but may not be found on the Scalpel (or torch).
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

If made as a 'real life' laser scalpel writ large I would be correct.
But they decided to got with throwing out techno-babble for the fanboys.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
drewkitty wrote:The Laser Scalpel is already a real world item and anyone can google it up to get an idea of what it is. Thus discounting any presentation calling it a blade.

This presumes that the Rifts version of a laser scalpel works like its real world counterpart. Nothing says it does or doesn't I admit, but given a few other examples of technology not working like their real world counter part, the notion has to at least be considered.

Go ahead and look a the canon artwork for in in the RMB, and tell me that it doesn't work the same. :crane:


"stable laser field"…..Hologram.

Unless the ""sword"" can change the air into a medium that can "freeze" (slow down deramticly) light (there is no FF listed to contain said medium)….

*has used a razor on Occam*

What canon artwork in the Rifts Main Book (pg # please, because I can't think of one and I just flipped through it and the scalpel has no image).

"stable laser field" does not equal hologram. Palladium is known to use the term Hologram (ex Wilk's PC-2020 Field Identifier; Laser Holographic Portable Computer" found in BOTH SB1o AND WB14:NW). So why would they just not use the term "hologram" instead of "stable laser field"? (MercOps even has a Holographic camera produced by Wilks, but it uses the PC-2020 for display purposes).

Well the medium you look for to "freeze" light could be this "stable laser field" since we don't know what it is exactly, you are assuming that it is holographic when we know in setting that holographics are called holographics.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Pardon me, I misremembered the laser torch artwork.
-------------------------
I am glade someone asked why. It is much better to to hear that then just plan "that is not canon, you are wrong'.
-------------------------
Why didn't PB just say it was a laser rod with hologram blade?*rhetorical*….. Because it would not of been Cool.

many times something that is perceived to be ...cool… is also stupid.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by dreicunan »

@Drewkitty: So in other words, you are claiming that your headcanon trumps actual Rifts canon.

For the rest of us, the laser knife and laser sword are clearly not a laser rod as a laser rod is defined in Rifts. If they were, they would not have random durations for how they work and would instead just shoot a specific number of times at a very limited range. That clearly is NOT what is happening, as the blade is able to strike and deal damage as many times as one can hit with it while it is active.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Pardon me, I misremembered the laser torch artwork.
------
Are you really asking me WHY? like a smart person.
Why did I determine that ""laser blades"" are really laser rods that only turn on when they get into range of a target.

The K.I.S.S. principle.
As in they would not have to ""invent something totally new"".
Developing around known tech is much easier and cheaper.

No need to insult people. People disagreeing with you is not a sign of stupidity.

The reason everyone is asking is because the books, repeatedly:
Refer to them with terms like "blades" and "melee weapon"
Make it clear that they use Melee WPs
State that they "cut" things
Make it clear that they were developed to mimic/replace vibro blades
Give them a listed 'duration that they are active' not 'shots fired'
Use the term "Stable laser field" not Hologram
None of which applies to laser guns. even some sort of short range one that only fires when something is "in range"

Especially since there is literally no example, anywhere, in the book of any sort of this 'automatic fire' technology meaning that it has to be made up out of whole cloth, and then intuited to exist simply to make this work. So you yourself are "Inventing something totally new" which makes the argument that you system is simpler on those grounds flawed...

And of course if they WERE some sort of automatically firing weapons then they would break several of the core rules in the WP system since, to cite the most egregious example, they would be using a laser pistol(rod) with the WP Sword proficiency.

So on one hand we have multiple uses of terms that describe a super-science energy blade made out of laser energy...
...on the other hand we have a unique weapon that violates most of the core rules of the WP system, uses a unique technology that has to be intuited to exist and some how is ONLY used for these three-four devices, requires changing what is written to change the meanings of words...

I would think that the K.I.S.S. principle here would suggest that these items are exactly what they are described as... energy blades.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Any "energy blade" such as the Wilks""laser knife''' that cannot be used to parry will not receive any bonus to parry from any magic spell.

The magic might, with a GM's discretion, even cause the char to mistakenly try to parry with the blade because the magic is meant for blades that can parry. Thus causing the char to be damage because the magic caused an error (like as if in baseball hurrying a throw make the player throw wide type error).


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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

the text from WB14:
Wilk's Laser Knife
The laser knife grew out of the technology used for the laser scalpel. Adventurers wanted a hand to hand weapon that was more powerful than the average Vibro-Blade. The laser knife was the first attempt at this The laser knife projects a stable laser field eight inches (0.21 m) from the generator hilt The laser is projected in the visible light spectrum and resembles a magic energy blade or psi-sword. It is still considered experimental and sold with no warranty and a warning about safety.

and then:
Note: The laser knife cannot be used to parry any type of attack; it cuts everything it touches.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by rem1093 »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Any "energy blade" such as the Wilks""laser knife''' that cannot be used to parry will not receive any bonus to parry from any magic spell.

The magic might, with a GM's discretion, even cause the char to mistakenly try to parry with the blade because the magic is meant for blades that can parry. Thus causing the char to be damage because the magic caused an error (like as if in baseball hurrying a throw make the player throw wide type error).


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Wile I agree with what you are saying about the parry, because the weapon says it can't parry, but that wouldn't effect the strike bonus, You also have to think that the user would know about the parry limitation and would not even try to use it that way. Also because the weapon is listed as a melee weapon any spell/ability that works with melee weapons should work with an energy blade. such as the Chi deathblow, from the Japan book, or the Blade magic from Rifter 20. Basically any thing that doesn't interfere with how the blade works. This is one of the reasons that I was thinking of bringing solid energy blades into the game.

After reading what what has bin posted, I do thing that the pure energy blades like the Wilks, need there own category, like the Plasma or Vibro swords. Because the are not normal melee or rod weapons.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Nightmask »

glitterboy2098 wrote:the text from WB14:
Wilk's Laser Knife
The laser knife grew out of the technology used for the laser scalpel. Adventurers wanted a hand to hand weapon that was more powerful than the average Vibro-Blade. The laser knife was the first attempt at this The laser knife projects a stable laser field eight inches (0.21 m) from the generator hilt The laser is projected in the visible light spectrum and resembles a magic energy blade or psi-sword. It is still considered experimental and sold with no warranty and a warning about safety.

and then:
Note: The laser knife cannot be used to parry any type of attack; it cuts everything it touches.


I see that and end up thinking 'So why does that mean it can't be used to parry? Cutting up my opponent's weapon so it's no longer useful is a pretty good idea'. You parried, you hit, you sliced a good chunk of a dangerous weapon off of it.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by rem1093 »

Nightmask wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:the text from WB14:
Wilk's Laser Knife
The laser knife grew out of the technology used for the laser scalpel. Adventurers wanted a hand to hand weapon that was more powerful than the average Vibro-Blade. The laser knife was the first attempt at this The laser knife projects a stable laser field eight inches (0.21 m) from the generator hilt The laser is projected in the visible light spectrum and resembles a magic energy blade or psi-sword. It is still considered experimental and sold with no warranty and a warning about safety.

and then:
Note: The laser knife cannot be used to parry any type of attack; it cuts everything it touches.


I see that and end up thinking 'So why does that mean it can't be used to parry? Cutting up my opponent's weapon so it's no longer useful is a pretty good idea'. You parried, you hit, you sliced a good chunk of a dangerous weapon off of it.


That would only happen if the blades damage is higher then the mdc of the attack, if not it would pass though and still hit. For instance the old robotech cads generated a 50 mdc for the blades, so the laser knife would have to do better then that or you would get hit.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

drewkitty wrote:Why not just say it was a laser rod with hologram blade….. Would not of been Cool.

many times something that is perceived to be ...cool… is also stupid.

You keep insisting that it is a laser rod, but it doesn't appear to be. About the only thing it has in common with the rod its a Laser, nothing else supports that it is a rod weapon mechanically (endurance of the weapon, applicable WP, etc).

Really if they wanted to make the holographic blade seem cool (which is highly subjective) they could have written it as (for ex.): "a damaging holographic blade using a MD grade laser" instead of the techno-babble "stabilized laser field" (and cut out the bit about it being projected to be visible since a hologram would be visible) and still achieved the same end result.

Nightmask wrote:I see that and end up thinking 'So why does that mean it can't be used to parry? Cutting up my opponent's weapon so it's no longer useful is a pretty good idea'. You parried, you hit, you sliced a good chunk of a dangerous weapon off of it.


This is where you run into a problem though. How to handle it mechanically when someone does attempt to parry? Would it really be considered a parry or a simultaneous strike mechanically? I think a case could be made for either, or worse an automatic simultaneous strike (free action like Automatic Dodge or Automatic Parry) which would be new (though not really as there are automatic attacks IIRC that amount to this). Or what if the nature of the offensive attack comes into fast to for the blade to really do any damage, thus negating the ability for it to do any damage at all as a result of a "parry motion" (which is what I think the writers intend since they don't address it from the above)

eliakon wrote:Especially since there is literally no example, anywhere, in the book of any sort of this 'automatic fire' technology meaning that it has to be made up out of whole cloth, and then intuited to exist simply to make this work. So you yourself are "Inventing something totally new" which makes the argument that you system is simpler on those grounds flawed...

This is not true. We have examples of far more complicated automated weapon systems (which IMHO would allow for a simplified system):
-WB2 Kittani Spider Defense System (pg138)
-WB9 SLAS (pg181)
-WB10 one of the NG PA is equipped with auto-dodging negating system (might also be in one of the NG books)
-MercOps has several examples of smart mines (NG and WI), and a NG version of the WB2 system
-Wave2 also has smart mines and destructo drones

These examples come to mind, and there might be more.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

i've generally assumed that "stable laser field" is an advertising buzzword Wilks used, and that the laser blade and laser sword use an array of lasers to make the 'blade', with frequencies designed to cancel each other out when they cross, and each laser emitter angled so that they all cross at a specific point. this would also explain why you can't parry.. there is literally nothing solid involved.. the lasers would just pass over the object inflicting damage.

the erratic endurance coming from the fact that the wilks does not usually do "constant beam' lasers and thus the efficiency sucks and the cooling systems sometimes draw more power than normal.

the visible blade is a bit harder to justify, but with the right frequencies (such as a green and some frequencies of blue) the blade's many beams would be noticeable to the eye.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

ShadowLogan wrote:
drewkitty wrote:Why not just say it was a laser rod with hologram blade….. Would not of been Cool.

many times something that is perceived to be ...cool… is also stupid.

You keep insisting that it is a laser rod,

…snip

I did not say that in the quoted text. I did go back to edit it so my meaning was clearer.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

rem1093 wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:the text from WB14:
Wilk's Laser Knife
The laser knife grew out of the technology used for the laser scalpel. Adventurers wanted a hand to hand weapon that was more powerful than the average Vibro-Blade. The laser knife was the first attempt at this The laser knife projects a stable laser field eight inches (0.21 m) from the generator hilt The laser is projected in the visible light spectrum and resembles a magic energy blade or psi-sword. It is still considered experimental and sold with no warranty and a warning about safety.

and then:
Note: The laser knife cannot be used to parry any type of attack; it cuts everything it touches.


I see that and end up thinking 'So why does that mean it can't be used to parry? Cutting up my opponent's weapon so it's no longer useful is a pretty good idea'. You parried, you hit, you sliced a good chunk of a dangerous weapon off of it.


That would only happen if the blades damage is higher then the mdc of the attack, if not it would pass though and still hit. For instance the old robotech cads generated a 50 mdc for the blades, so the laser knife would have to do better then that or you would get hit.


Not to mention certain indestructible weapons like rune weapons and a TW Flame Blade or Lightblade, weapons that are immune to energy (lightning rod), etc.

Parrying isn't just blocking (in fact, it is almost never that, that's a great way to get your weapon destroyed), its using your weapon's physical mass to knock the other weapon aside, even just a little. The laser knife/dagger/sword from Wilks cannot do that.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by eliakon »

ShadowLogan wrote:
eliakon wrote:Especially since there is literally no example, anywhere, in the book of any sort of this 'automatic fire' technology meaning that it has to be made up out of whole cloth, and then intuited to exist simply to make this work. So you yourself are "Inventing something totally new" which makes the argument that you system is simpler on those grounds flawed...

This is not true. We have examples of far more complicated automated weapon systems (which IMHO would allow for a simplified system):
-WB2 Kittani Spider Defense System (pg138)
-WB9 SLAS (pg181)
-WB10 one of the NG PA is equipped with auto-dodging negating system (might also be in one of the NG books)
-MercOps has several examples of smart mines (NG and WI), and a NG version of the WB2 system
-Wave2 also has smart mines and destructo drones

These examples come to mind, and there might be more.

There is a rather significant difference between a mine, or a robot weapon and a system that can detect the range of a moving object, calculate it to with in inches (the range of the knife or scalpel), then fire a precise blast that will always strike the target when it enters range (the laser 'gun' never misses after all, since it will always cut anything your supposed 'hologram' touches)
The autodoge negating blaster is, I suppose a somewhat similar bit of technology...
...which I suppose means that instead of it being a totally brand new technology it only has micronized and perfected a different unique technology that has never been used by anyone else... suggesting the tech is either obscure, highly secret, or not effective.
Oh and they did it with out needing any sensors, or computers or any of the OTHER components of the PA system...
Which, basically means that yes, they are inventing a totally brand new technology that is unlike anything else in the game.

Not that it really matters since it is pretty patently obvious to anyone reading the books that the devices are NOT laser rods that fire laser bolts. They are energy blades made up of laser light using handwavium super science that cut anything they touch.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

I agree they are not laser rods firing laser bolts. I am just stating that there automated systems that are larger and far more complicated, so a simple "detect" object w/n a few feet and fire should not be a problem, even miniaturization isn't an issue (Rifts has plenty of miniaturized tech examples that could be combined into a knife or sword hilt, the stated size of cybernetic finger cameras and finger lasers alone can allow for it).
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by BlueLion »

The laser swords is a bit of a odd weapon. In general a weapon that only works with in arms reach and can not be used to parry is not very effective. Given that pistols can be used at the same range and further it is really more of a nitch weapon. It is sold because it is cool not because it is super useful.
The energy melee weapons from HU would be far more useful as they can parry(by the book they are in even energy blasts) but for some reason they are not found in rifts. (they seam more a solid energy weapon.)
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

BlueLion wrote:snip... It is sold because it is cool not because it is super useful.
…snip

I do believe that there is text in the new west book that says that Wilks only made their "knife" because of market demand for 'something cool' rather then well thought out functional.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by eliakon »

BlueLion wrote:The laser swords is a bit of a odd weapon. In general a weapon that only works with in arms reach and can not be used to parry is not very effective. Given that pistols can be used at the same range and further it is really more of a nitch weapon. It is sold because it is cool not because it is super useful.
The energy melee weapons from HU would be far more useful as they can parry(by the book they are in even energy blasts) but for some reason they are not found in rifts. (they seam more a solid energy weapon.)

My take away on them was always that it was not a case of "not usefulel" but a case of "This does X really well, don't try to do Y or Z and you will be fine."

They have features that make them very useful in their specific niche.
They provide a compact cutting tool that doesn't have a physical blade that can be damaged, making them useful for all sorts of operations
They provide a compact, concealable melee weapon which, while not allowing a parry, does a good amount of damage...
...and frankly there are other weapons that don't allow parries (Whips come to mind).
They make a fantastic weapon for someone with W.P. paired for example. Use the Laser Sword in one hand, and basically anything else in the other hand to parry with!
They also get to exploit the rules for parrying energy weapons... Under the rules for parrying in Rifts if the foe parries an MD energy attack with a normal object (such as a shield, or weapon, or the like) that object takes full damage! And since these weapons are doing MD laser damag the laser sword is doing MD Energy Damage! That is a HUGE asset in certain fights.

I would reiterate thus that they are not just "cool window dressing with no real use".
They are very valuable tools that can be incredibly useful when used properly for the roles in which they are built. It is when they are used in roles for which they are NOT built that they turn into sub-par tools. But that is not their fault any more than it is true that simply because a laser rifle makes a poor club that we should conclude that laser rifles are simply cool window dressing with no real use...
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

eliakon wrote:
BlueLion wrote:The laser swords is a bit of a odd weapon. In general a weapon that only works with in arms reach and can not be used to parry is not very effective. Given that pistols can be used at the same range and further it is really more of a nitch weapon. It is sold because it is cool not because it is super useful.
The energy melee weapons from HU would be far more useful as they can parry(by the book they are in even energy blasts) but for some reason they are not found in rifts. (they seam more a solid energy weapon.)

My take away on them was always that it was not a case of "not usefulel" but a case of "This does X really well, don't try to do Y or Z and you will be fine."

They have features that make them very useful in their specific niche.
They provide a compact cutting tool that doesn't have a physical blade that can be damaged, making them useful for all sorts of operations
They provide a compact, concealable melee weapon which, while not allowing a parry, does a good amount of damage...
...and frankly there are other weapons that don't allow parries (Whips come to mind).
They make a fantastic weapon for someone with W.P. paired for example. Use the Laser Sword in one hand, and basically anything else in the other hand to parry with!
They also get to exploit the rules for parrying energy weapons... Under the rules for parrying in Rifts if the foe parries an MD energy attack with a normal object (such as a shield, or weapon, or the like) that object takes full damage! And since these weapons are doing MD laser damag the laser sword is doing MD Energy Damage! That is a HUGE asset in certain fights.

I would reiterate thus that they are not just "cool window dressing with no real use".
They are very valuable tools that can be incredibly useful when used properly for the roles in which they are built. It is when they are used in roles for which they are NOT built that they turn into sub-par tools. But that is not their fault any more than it is true that simply because a laser rifle makes a poor club that we should conclude that laser rifles are simply cool window dressing with no real use...

I did say they are a niche weapon, it sound more like you are disagreeing with me while restating part of what I said.
They can make ranged weapons on the same scale a concealable melee weapon that can not parry is substandard to it. (melee weapons over all are substandard to ranged weapons, the only strength they have is they can parry melee attacks.)
whips are not originally intended as weapons but tools and by the book can parry(when used two handed) and also be used to entangle an attacker. they are another niche weapon. often substandard to real weapons

A melee weapon that can not parry is a substandard melee weapon.
Rifts has other cutting tools that could be used without risk of damaging a blade.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:
BlueLion wrote:The laser swords is a bit of a odd weapon. In general a weapon that only works with in arms reach and can not be used to parry is not very effective. Given that pistols can be used at the same range and further it is really more of a nitch weapon. It is sold because it is cool not because it is super useful.
The energy melee weapons from HU would be far more useful as they can parry(by the book they are in even energy blasts) but for some reason they are not found in rifts. (they seam more a solid energy weapon.)

My take away on them was always that it was not a case of "not usefulel" but a case of "This does X really well, don't try to do Y or Z and you will be fine."

They have features that make them very useful in their specific niche.
They provide a compact cutting tool that doesn't have a physical blade that can be damaged, making them useful for all sorts of operations
They provide a compact, concealable melee weapon which, while not allowing a parry, does a good amount of damage...
...and frankly there are other weapons that don't allow parries (Whips come to mind).
They make a fantastic weapon for someone with W.P. paired for example. Use the Laser Sword in one hand, and basically anything else in the other hand to parry with!
They also get to exploit the rules for parrying energy weapons... Under the rules for parrying in Rifts if the foe parries an MD energy attack with a normal object (such as a shield, or weapon, or the like) that object takes full damage! And since these weapons are doing MD laser damag the laser sword is doing MD Energy Damage! That is a HUGE asset in certain fights.

I would reiterate thus that they are not just "cool window dressing with no real use".
They are very valuable tools that can be incredibly useful when used properly for the roles in which they are built. It is when they are used in roles for which they are NOT built that they turn into sub-par tools. But that is not their fault any more than it is true that simply because a laser rifle makes a poor club that we should conclude that laser rifles are simply cool window dressing with no real use...

I did say they are a niche weapon, it sound more like you are disagreeing with me while restating part of what I said.
They can make ranged weapons on the same scale a concealable melee weapon that can not parry is substandard to it. (melee weapons over all are substandard to ranged weapons, the only strength they have is they can parry melee attacks.)
whips are not originally intended as weapons but tools and by the book can parry(when used two handed) and also be used to entangle an attacker. they are another niche weapon. often substandard to real weapons

A melee weapon that can not parry is a substandard melee weapon.
Rifts has other cutting tools that could be used without risk of damaging a blade.

Such as? Because I can think of... ummm the plasma torches and the laser blades. And I guess you can get a Rune weapon, or the super rare Mystic Kuznya indistructable blade, or an import from a different game like a PF weapon, or a DarkSteel weapon...
not exactly common, or accessable to most people.
Which is why laser knifes and laser scalpels are so useful. They are common, relatively cheap and a totally breakage resistant cutting blade.


And I would say, strongly, that I don't agree with the idea that melee weapons strength is in their ability to parry.
Besides the fact that you don't actually lose the ability to parry (yes, you lose the ability to parry WITH THE BLADE OF THE WEAPON. But that is not the same thing.)... it is not the strength of melee weapons.
The strength of Melee weapons is stuff like
-higher strike bonuses
-can use PP bonuses
-does not require a specialized skill to use
-no penalties for things like dodging during a fight (RAW if you dodge then your next shot is wild for instance...)

Non-energy weapons add in advantages like ammunition capacity as well. Which this does in many ways as well...
...since for example with the laser sword you get no less than 20 minutes of constant use out of it. That is a LOT of use.
In point of fact that is 80+ rounds of use. and considering most people have at LEAST 4 APM that means you are looking at well over 200 'shots' per charge. Pretty good efficiency for a 5d6 weapon!

And since this is virtually the only Melee weapon in the Rifts Universe that does damage to a subject if they parry (there are some TW blades and spells but none of those are available to the average user)...
...yeah that is an amazing power right there.

So I guess if you mean "A really good melee weapon" is "niche" because you are claiming that melee weapons themselves are just niche weapons then I guess you have a point...
...but I would say that dismissing melee weapons as a class of weapons is basically stating that one play style is 'right' and that anyone who uses melee is doing it wrong.

The way I look at this is that you get a melee weapon with a good duration, very good damage, an insane damage perk (damage on a hit AND on a successful parry)...
...and the only trade off is that I can't use the WP parry bonus?
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Guns and energy pistols do not require any skill to shoot.

There is no risk of vibro blades breaking under normal use to cut things(only when some one that does not need it uses it with sn by the rules does it have an option of having a risk to break). Neither do TW fire blades, ice blades, or energy blades like the nurni knight PA has. So other choices are super common, without the loss of defense in melee combat. You could argue that a called shot can be used to break a vibro blade but the same is true of the laser knife.

Congrats you have a higher chance to hit in melee combat, I got a gun shoot you before you get in range. By the rules the person with the greater range goes first. So I shoot you before you get in range to use your weapon, so as a sneak in weapon in a city with no other MD gear a smuggled in ranged weapon wins against a smugled in melee weapon.

the laser knife can not be used to parry melee MD attacks that require weapon made of MD material the laser knife says it can not be used to parry. So your niche weapon just cost you an defensive advantage against a demon(unless you use a second weapon to compensate for the disadvantage of it). It also can be defeated by creatures immune to energy or know the spell. A vibro blade is a more practical melee weapon because it does not have the same disadvantages, if you are magical there are tw weapons that can match or surpass its damage and can still parry.

Range weapon is superior to melee because they do not require you to get close to the target to use them. Your niche weapon will never be as good over all to a range weapon.

The laser knife is horribly niche weapon that is not practical compared to other choices out there. Assassins can do better than the laser knife.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by dreicunan »

The laser sword is pretty lightweight. You could easily carry it AND a vibro-blade (or other MD melee weapon). 5d6 for a melee weapon is pretty dang good (heck, the knife's 3d6 is not exactly shabby, either) for any normal strength character. Hook that blade up to power-armor, and you got a great melee option against plenty (not all, but plenty) of threats without needing to worry about duration, and as tool for cutting through doors or walls, well, how many chromium walls of impervious to energy doors are out there. Heck, against chromium armor 5d6/2 is still going to give you equal or better damage than most vibro-weapons.

The "niches" that this weapon can fill are rather useful niches to have filled!
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

dreicunan wrote:The laser sword is pretty lightweight. You could easily carry it AND a vibro-blade (or other MD melee weapon). 5d6 for a melee weapon is pretty dang good (heck, the knife's 3d6 is not exactly shabby, either) for any normal strength character. Hook that blade up to power-armor, and you got a great melee option against plenty (not all, but plenty) of threats without needing to worry about duration, and as tool for cutting through doors or walls, well, how many chromium walls of impervious to energy doors are out there. Heck, against chromium armor 5d6/2 is still going to give you equal or better damage than most vibro-weapons.

The "niches" that this weapon can fill are rather useful niches to have filled!

If you only worry about damage out put go with a wilks laser rifle 1d6X10 on a pulse range in thousands of feet.(see your sword and kinfe kinda suck over all.

There are other melee weapons that can match its damage and be used to parry with a PA and your claims of its greatness are shot sighted.(NE energy sword 1d6X10, juicer chain saw, TW light blade 1d4X10, storm spire weapons.)

People keep singing praises for a substandard melee weapon based on its damage, but the loss of parry in melee is a significant trade of for a small damage increase. The cost for its minor damage make it a substandard weapon.

Melee is a niche that is worse than ranged, your PA could be should be using heavy weapons that make the damage of a laser blade substandard.

The lack of defense parry means it is a substandard melee option, a silver coated vibro blade is all around great melee weapon, while the laser knife is a subpar weapon that just focuses on part of its job.(and can be out preformed by other weapons out there) The laser kinfe/sword is a niche weapon that is sub par, and its is not needed to fill its niche, there are better weapons out there for any of its niche uses.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:Guns and energy pistols do not require any skill to shoot.

No, just to reload.
Unless you treat them all as disposable items of course.
RAW clearly state that you can not reload ANY modern weapon with out the skill.
I am not discussing if that is realistic, or if you have changed that in your house rules, I am saying that the game system AS DESIGNED is set up with certain rules and privileges.

Blue_Lion wrote:There is no risk of vibro blades breaking under normal use to cut things(only when some one that does not need it uses it with sn by the rules does it have an option of having a risk to break). Neither do TW fire blades, ice blades, or energy blades like the nurni knight PA has. So other choices are super common, without the loss of defense in melee combat. You could argue that a called shot can be used to break a vibro blade but the same is true of the laser knife.

Again you just made my point FOR me again, thanks.
every one of your examples... is magic or a super rare, exotic multi-million dollar piece of alien tech.
as for breakage I was not talking about "use in melee" I, explicitly mentioned that I was looking at this for long term use and maintiance.
But lets look at your claims eh?
1) if you parry my laser sword with your vibro blade... you just broke your vibro blade (you took 5d6 damage to your vibro blade. That is very likely to break it). However if you parry my vibro blade with your vibro blade.... nothing happens
2) called shots. I don't know how YOUR GM runs it. but I have never seen a GM that allows a person to make a called shot at something in a person's hand. Shoot the blade of a sword? sure. Shoot the hilt that they are holding? Not so much.
So when making an apples to apples comparison of the available tech swords we have...
Vibro Blades. lower damage, blade can be broken
laser blades. Higher damage, blade can not be broken.
Hmmmm doesn't look to ME as if the Vibro Blade is inherently better.


Blue_Lion wrote:Congrats you have a higher chance to hit in melee combat, I got a gun shoot you before you get in range. By the rules the person with the greater range goes first.

Source?
I mean the game rule not your house rule?
Because my book says the person with the highest initiative goes first.
Rewriting the rules to make melee combat obsolete in your games does not prove anything. I am talking about the actual game as written, not your personal home brew.

Blue_Lion wrote: So I shoot you before you get in range to use your weapon, so as a sneak in weapon in a city with no other MD gear a smuggled in ranged weapon wins against a smugled in melee weapon.

Yes, in your personally rewritten house game that may be true.
I was talking RAW
And then of course there is the fact that many places explicitly state that they allow melee weapons but not guns...
but by all means make up imaginary scenarios where you can "prove" that melee is pointless. In the mean time the rest of us will be discussing the question of "considering technological melee weapons what are the pros and cons of the various options"


Blue_Lion wrote: the laser knife can not be used to parry melee MD attacks that require weapon made of MD material the laser knife says it can not be used to parry. So your niche weapon just cost you an defensive advantage against a demon(unless you use a second weapon to compensate for the disadvantage of it).

1) RAW I can still parry. You don't have to use the weapon in your hand for the parry. The only reason to use the weapon in your hand for the parry is to get the parry bonus of that WP.
2) I would like to point out that a very large number of people have paired weapons and so WILL have 2 melee weapons at hand.
3) Also RAW there is no rule that you need a weapon made of MD Materials to parry melee attacks.
There IS a rule that says you need such an item to parry MD ENERGY attacks though... like say... laser swords?
Once again, rewriting the rules doesn't show how the RAW works. Just how your personal game works.
Again I am interested in discussing the RAW not your personal home brew.

Blue_Lion wrote: It also can be defeated by creatures immune to energy or know the spell.

You mean the same defenses that will stop virtually every single MD weapon?
Yes I suppose that if we pick out one of the most powerful defenses in the game...
So yes, in one niche circumstance it is not effective.
Unless that is a super common event in your games then it is not really relevant is it though?
One can just as easily say "Well if they are invulnerable then you can't harm them"
or we could argue that "well what if they are vampires"

Blue_Lion wrote:A vibro blade is a more practical melee weapon because it does not have the same disadvantages, if you are magical there are tw weapons that can match or surpass its damage and can still parry.

You were just talking about how melee was bad...
...but now you are trying to praise melee?
And the vast majority of people are NOT "magical"
TW is not the normal 'go to' for the vast majority of people
But again, by all means keep ignoring all the benefits of laser blades and all the disadvantages of vibro-blades.

Blue_Lion wrote:Range weapon is superior to melee because they do not require you to get close to the target to use them. Your niche weapon will never be as good over all to a range weapon.

And a gun is never as good as a tank...
Lets try and compare apples to apples here instead of arguing that your play style is the One True Way and that anyone else is Doing It Wrong if they dare to play different.
The discussion here is about melee weapons.
Not "Is melee stupid"
And in the context of THAT discussion, then no Laser Blades are not pointless. They are a good option for many (but not all) people when considered holistically by looking rationally at their up and down sides and the up and down sides of the various other options available.

Blue_Lion wrote:The laser knife is horribly niche weapon that is not practical compared to other choices out there. Assassins can do better than the laser knife.

Yes if you ignore all of its UPSIDES, and create imaginary down sides then claim that melee weapons themselves are stupid after rewriting the game rules then sure it is pointless...
But I was talking about the actual game as written though.
And comparing it to other melee weapons
And considering it only in its own category (technological melee weapons)
Because anything is pointless if you change the rules, make fake comparisons to other categories, and argue that the entire use is a joke.

I also note that you still have not addressed the point of this weapon.
You know the "easily concealed" or the "does damage to the target even if it parries"
You know... the reasons that people would want to use it.

You seem personally think it is stupid and so you want everyone else to think it is stupid too. And in your quest to do so you are willing to rewrite the entire game system to make melee weapons stupid. And ignore anything that is beneficial about the laser weapons. I am more interested in an actual, rational discussion about the merits of things as they are in the game as written.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

You said they do not require specialized skill to use, I merely pointed out the same is true for the use of guns then you try to make a moving target. Reloading is not using shooting is using.

Wait vibro blades are rare multi milion dollar or alien tech?-Do you have a source to state this my understanding is vibro blades are common. I do not need to make contact with your knifes blade to parry it, that is you rewriting rules to make your niche weapon better they same thing you accuse me of doing. You can parry a melee attack by moving the arm that swings it. When you successfully pary by the rules you take no damage.(As I understand it blocking you stop the attack by placing something in front of it but parry can be simply moving the attack to cause it to miss you.) Funny how I say under normal use no risk of them breaking and you try to create a special case house rule to make them break.


As to long range attacks going first. Have you read the rules for initiative on page 339 of RUE? Sneak attacks and long range attacks always have initiative, in other words they go first.( :roll: )

Impervious to energy stops most light ranged weapons(as they are typically energy) but most melee weapons are not affected by that power(vibro blades are the most used MD melee weapon). It does not affect vibro blades, juicer chain saws, and depending on the immunity may not stop tw weapons. If you want to keep it to melee weapons as you claim it does not affect most MD melee weapons.

I was not praising melee when I said a vibro blade was more practical I was talking about the advantages a vibro blade has over your niche weapon. Melee<ranged yes but a vibro blade is more practical than a laser knife. A silver plated vibro knife can affect more than just about any weapon out there can cut most things. (It can likely be used turned off to cut sdc things you do not want to destroy but that is not in the rules. So is just my opinion.)

I am not ignoring the upsides all their upsides are addressed. I did not rewrite the rules, however you did so in your post when you presented your house rule that a vibro blade has to take damage to parry a laser blade, and when you implied something in a person hand can not be hit by a called shot(something that by raw can be done, you are assume the blade handle is no bigger than the person hand it seams most knife handles I have held stick out on either side).

Note: Tanks are net better than ranged attacks tanks are covered by ranged attacks as their main attacks are ranged. There are two categorizes of combat in rifts, melee and ranged, ranged is subdevided into modern weapons proficients and missiles. Weather you want to admit it or not range is better than melee combat as range attacks can often kill melee before they close the distance. (it gets worse for melee if you include the rule from the murderthon about not advancing during the same action you dodge.)

(the laser blades are really one trick ponies that are not worth the cost. like a range attack they can not parry but lack the range of a range attack. If you are going to for fit the range of a range weapon do not also for fit one of the main advantage a melee weapon has of free parry.)

Typically I carry melee weapons for when I can not use my range weapons. AS there is nothing stopping me from shooting some one at melee range the main reason being to counter things immune to my laser rifle. So a silver plated vibro blade handles that better than a laser blade, and can do all the non-combat tasks of the laser blade.(So in my opinion the laser blade is totally impractical weapon.)

I typically carry sdc knifes for most mundane cutting like rope, MREs, food (a laser blade would be poor choice for this in my opinion because it just inflicted laser/heat based MD to my sdc diner or rope).

In my experience most fights in rifts start at ranges of 100 feet or greater. So melee are usually side arms not the main weapon of most PCs.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by dreicunan »

Regarding page 339, it says that a successful long ranged attack or sneak attack has initiative. RAW, that means that you always default to rolling for initiative, because the first step in combat is determining initiative, and you can't make a successful sneak attack or long ranged attack until after initiative has been determined.

Now, I bet most people modify that to something more sensible, but RAW it impossible to win initiative by those means in Rifts.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

dreicunan wrote:Regarding page 339, it says that a successful long ranged attack or sneak attack has initiative. RAW, that means that you always default to rolling for initiative, because the first step in combat is determining initiative, and you can't make a successful sneak attack or long ranged attack until after initiative has been determined.

Now, I bet most people modify that to something more sensible, but RAW it impossible to win initiative by those means in Rifts.

Raw as written clearly states sneak attacks and long range attacks go first. It is on page 339 on how to determine who has initiative. It says they always have initiative, that means they go first.
So even with low roll a long range attack would happen before a non sneak melee.

That is raw stating sneak attack and long range has initive as part of determine who has initive. It specifies they go first.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by eliakon »

"Long Range" is not the same as "All guns"
It is. Wait for it...LONG range.
That is not "all ranged attacks go first"
Sure, you can change the rules to make guns more powerful yes
But the RAW is that LONG range attacks go first. Because they are lumped in with sneak attacks.

A sniper 3000' away might get initiative. That may, or may not, be considered a Long Ranged attack
A jet five miles off will get initiative... they are making a Long Ranged attack
Your gun bunny 50' away is NOT going to get automatic initiative, since that is not Long Ranged.

You can't just ignore half the words. The statement is LONG ranged attacks, not just ranged.
There is a difference.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

eliakon wrote:"Long Range" is not the same as "All guns"
It is. Wait for it...LONG range.
That is not "all ranged attacks go first"
Sure, you can change the rules to make guns more powerful yes
But the RAW is that LONG range attacks go first. Because they are lumped in with sneak attacks.

A sniper 3000' away might get initiative. That may, or may not, be considered a Long Ranged attack
A jet five miles off will get initiative... they are making a Long Ranged attack
Your gun bunny 50' away is NOT going to get automatic initiative, since that is not Long Ranged.

You can't just ignore half the words. The statement is LONG ranged attacks, not just ranged.
There is a difference.


Long range is not a set distance but relative term.
Against a person a range of 15-45 feet ( distance I would expect a normal sword wilder to cover and strike in 1 action) 50 feet would be long range as it is beyond the normal range you can strike. My range is greater so I can shoot you with what is for you a long range shot, as long range is relative. (There term long range could also be applied to shots beyond normal range.)


I read this as an attacker that has you in range when it would take you more than a action to be able to hit them. (I see it this way because it is linked to sneak attack and it avoids the double auto go first with opposed missile shots from 5 miles away.

Basically I am saying in this case I see long range as attacks from outside your distance to strike. For a Samas rail gun it would be greater than 1.25 miles, for a glitter boy it would be greater than the reach of his boom gun for a sword fighter it would be greater than his movement+reach. (This seams more of a no duh he is going to hit you first rule instead of I beat the roll of the ambusher so I go first.)

Think about it this way-Combat and does not start until the first person attacks or takes a combat exclusive action, running at some one is not an attack and can be done out of combat. Pointing a gun at some one is a threat not combat. Shooting a gun at you is a combat action and trying to hit with a sword is a combat action. If I out range you I can start combat before you because my attack is beyound your range making mine the long range attack to you(as long range is relative). However if I wait until you are in your weapon range we both have the option to attack, and need to roll to see who strikes first.-the sneak attack/long range attack rule to me represents times when one side decides to start combat before the other is able to start combat.

To me setting an arbitary default range for long range creates mutural auto goes first loop. Example if long range is greater than 1 mile then 2 glitter boys shooting 2 miles at each other both would go first and would make no sense.
-However the way I read it both GB would have normal initiative at that range but a bot shooting a samas from 3 miles away would start out with initiative. (you could either then have the samas advanced per action based on its speed while the missile using bot would keep shooting it as it will have incentive, or house rule the sneak attack to just the first action in combat.) This is not rewriting the rules but reading long range as relative to the range of the fighters.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by dreicunan »

Blue_Lion wrote:
dreicunan wrote:Regarding page 339, it says that a successful long ranged attack or sneak attack has initiative. RAW, that means that you always default to rolling for initiative, because the first step in combat is determining initiative, and you can't make a successful sneak attack or long ranged attack until after initiative has been determined.

Now, I bet most people modify that to something more sensible, but RAW it impossible to win initiative by those means in Rifts.

Raw as written clearly states sneak attacks and long range attacks go first. It is on page 339 on how to determine who has initiative. It says they always have initiative, that means they go first.
So even with low roll a long range attack would happen before a non sneak melee.

That is raw stating sneak attack and long range has initive as part of determine who has initive. It specifies they go first.

No, RAW clearly states on RUE page 339 that a SUCCESSFUL sneak attack or long range attack has initiative. In order to make a SUCCESSFUL attack, you have to roll to strike...which you can't do until STEP TWO. You determine initiative in STEP ONE. Therefore, it is impossible to make a SUCCESSFUL sneak attack or long range attack to gain initiative, because you can't successfully make an attack without actually making an attack, and you can't make an attack until step two. In order to get to step two, you first have to complete step one. In order to complete step one, you need to determine initiative. Thus, RAW, you will always end up rolling for initiative, because the other way stated to determine it is impossible to do.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

wouldn't this basically mean a long range attack is one from a distance that makes the shooter undetectable to the target? since that would effectively be the same as a sneak attack, and you'd make the strike for for those before the melee round even starts, because it hitting marks the actual start combat?
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

dreicunan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
dreicunan wrote:Regarding page 339, it says that a successful long ranged attack or sneak attack has initiative. RAW, that means that you always default to rolling for initiative, because the first step in combat is determining initiative, and you can't make a successful sneak attack or long ranged attack until after initiative has been determined.

Now, I bet most people modify that to something more sensible, but RAW it impossible to win initiative by those means in Rifts.

Raw as written clearly states sneak attacks and long range attacks go first. It is on page 339 on how to determine who has initiative. It says they always have initiative, that means they go first.
So even with low roll a long range attack would happen before a non sneak melee.

That is raw stating sneak attack and long range has initive as part of determine who has initive. It specifies they go first.

No, RAW clearly states on RUE page 339 that a SUCCESSFUL sneak attack or long range attack has initiative. In order to make a SUCCESSFUL attack, you have to roll to strike...which you can't do until STEP TWO. You determine initiative in STEP ONE. Therefore, it is impossible to make a SUCCESSFUL sneak attack or long range attack to gain initiative, because you can't successfully make an attack without actually making an attack, and you can't make an attack until step two. In order to get to step two, you first have to complete step one. In order to complete step one, you need to determine initiative. Thus, RAW, you will always end up rolling for initiative, because the other way stated to determine it is impossible to do.

I think you may be misreading successful sneak attack. They mean when you successfully go without being detected before you attack, because as you pointed out this is determined before step 2.

What you are doing is creating a reading that basically negates a a section of RAW then claim it is RAW that RAW is not in affect. Things can be read more than one way, and from the text and order of attack it is clear they do not have successfully strike to successfully sneak attack.
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

glitterboy2098 wrote:wouldn't this basically mean a long range attack is one from a distance that makes the shooter undetectable to the target? since that would effectively be the same as a sneak attack, and you'd make the strike for for those before the melee round even starts, because it hitting marks the actual start combat?

That might be one way to look at it but it would redundant as a undetected attack is a sneak attack.

AS I said combat does not start until this seams more to address a time when only one side/combatant can attack and decides when combat.
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Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by dreicunan »

Blue_Lion wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
dreicunan wrote:Regarding page 339, it says that a successful long ranged attack or sneak attack has initiative. RAW, that means that you always default to rolling for initiative, because the first step in combat is determining initiative, and you can't make a successful sneak attack or long ranged attack until after initiative has been determined.

Now, I bet most people modify that to something more sensible, but RAW it impossible to win initiative by those means in Rifts.

Raw as written clearly states sneak attacks and long range attacks go first. It is on page 339 on how to determine who has initiative. It says they always have initiative, that means they go first.
So even with low roll a long range attack would happen before a non sneak melee.

That is raw stating sneak attack and long range has initive as part of determine who has initive. It specifies they go first.

No, RAW clearly states on RUE page 339 that a SUCCESSFUL sneak attack or long range attack has initiative. In order to make a SUCCESSFUL attack, you have to roll to strike...which you can't do until STEP TWO. You determine initiative in STEP ONE. Therefore, it is impossible to make a SUCCESSFUL sneak attack or long range attack to gain initiative, because you can't successfully make an attack without actually making an attack, and you can't make an attack until step two. In order to get to step two, you first have to complete step one. In order to complete step one, you need to determine initiative. Thus, RAW, you will always end up rolling for initiative, because the other way stated to determine it is impossible to do.

I think you may be misreading successful sneak attack. They mean when you successfully go without being detected before you attack, because as you pointed out this is determined before step 2.

What you are doing is creating a reading that basically negates a a section of RAW then claim it is RAW that RAW is not in affect. Things can be read more than one way, and from the text and order of attack it is clear they do not have successfully strike to successfully sneak attack.

What, aren't we making nonsense arguments? If you want things to make sense, you'd have bothered citing the definitions of sneak attack (p. 347) and long range attack (p. 346), the latter of those two making it clear that the issue for long range attacks is that you are unseen. If you are seen (given things like sensors one could safely extrapolate "detected" for seen), you do NOT get initiative automatically just because you are using a gun and and your opponent is using a knife.

Since you were CLEARLY ignoring that, I figured that I'd engage your argument on your terms and point out that even then you were incorrect.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
BlueLion wrote:snip... It is sold because it is cool not because it is super useful.
…snip

I do believe that there is text in the new west book that says that Wilks only made their "knife" because of market demand for 'something cool' rather then well thought out functional.

Nothing about 'something cool', but it was due to demand: "Adventurers wanted a hand to hand weapon that was more powerful than the average Vibro-Blade. The laser knife was the first attempt at this." No such comment exists on why Wilk's made the laser sword in MercOps (pg104).

Basically customers where looking for something that could hit harder than a Vibro-Blade (in this respect they have been successful compared to main book/rue vibro weapons all hit weaker than a Laser Knife beside the Giant Sword, and the laser sword beats out the giant sword).

In general:
Wilk's laser blades have two glaring weaknesses compared to vibro-blades: can't parry AND endurance (unpredictable). It hasn't been the inability to parry that has influenced sales by text, it is the unpredictable endurance figure (which could be managed I suspect) of the Sword (sales of the knife aren't mentioned in New West entry).

Something Wilk's could explore to make the weapons more versatile though is to give them the ability to function as muliti-shot "ballasic blades" (MerOps has Ballistic Knives/Vibro-Knives, the blade can be fired from the hilt, only one shot per though) or Kittani Plasma weapons (ex. Plasma Sword can be used in melee or ranged attack). Not sure it would help sales unless they can get the unpredictable endurance under control or made to be more manageable.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

dreicunan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
dreicunan wrote:Regarding page 339, it says that a successful long ranged attack or sneak attack has initiative. RAW, that means that you always default to rolling for initiative, because the first step in combat is determining initiative, and you can't make a successful sneak attack or long ranged attack until after initiative has been determined.

Now, I bet most people modify that to something more sensible, but RAW it impossible to win initiative by those means in Rifts.

Raw as written clearly states sneak attacks and long range attacks go first. It is on page 339 on how to determine who has initiative. It says they always have initiative, that means they go first.
So even with low roll a long range attack would happen before a non sneak melee.

That is raw stating sneak attack and long range has initive as part of determine who has initive. It specifies they go first.

No, RAW clearly states on RUE page 339 that a SUCCESSFUL sneak attack or long range attack has initiative. In order to make a SUCCESSFUL attack, you have to roll to strike...which you can't do until STEP TWO. You determine initiative in STEP ONE. Therefore, it is impossible to make a SUCCESSFUL sneak attack or long range attack to gain initiative, because you can't successfully make an attack without actually making an attack, and you can't make an attack until step two. In order to get to step two, you first have to complete step one. In order to complete step one, you need to determine initiative. Thus, RAW, you will always end up rolling for initiative, because the other way stated to determine it is impossible to do.

I think you may be misreading successful sneak attack. They mean when you successfully go without being detected before you attack, because as you pointed out this is determined before step 2.

What you are doing is creating a reading that basically negates a a section of RAW then claim it is RAW that RAW is not in affect. Things can be read more than one way, and from the text and order of attack it is clear they do not have successfully strike to successfully sneak attack.

What, aren't we making nonsense arguments? If you want things to make sense, you'd have bothered citing the definitions of sneak attack (p. 347) and long range attack (p. 346), the latter of those two making it clear that the issue for long range attacks is that you are unseen. If you are seen (given things like sensors one could safely extrapolate "detected" for seen), you do NOT get initiative automatically just because you are using a gun and and your opponent is using a knife.

Since you were CLEARLY ignoring that, I figured that I'd engage your argument on your terms and point out that even then you were incorrect.

Hmm. Good find I missed that so it does seam I may be wrong on long range in the sense.-However it also says long range attack is an attack done at a distance so I am not wrong at that or that they are relative. Being at a distance to be unseen is not a requirement listed for long range attacks. In fact it was the definition of long range or range attack so the two terms could be seen as interchangeable. Giving this new information to consider it does seam it may be talking about shooting from beyond detection range.

As to me making nonsense arguments the definition of sneak attack matched the logic I used to counter your claim.(your claim was a sucesfull sneak attack or long range attack could only happen with a successfulstrike). So if you knew about this you where making blatantly false claims about RAW. I find it more logical to assume you made a claim about RAW and when it got shot down found the definitions on page 347(that utterly shot down your claim, and matches my counter to your logic) and 346 and then rather than quoting them to inform made a personal attack about me ignoring them and called my logic nonsense. Please refrain form personal attacks.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Energy Melee weapons and Magic, abilitys, ext

Unread post by dreicunan »

@Blue_Lion: Without the definition of a successful sneak attack from 347, your interpretation falls on its face. A successful attack that didn't succeed? However, if your assumption pleases you, assume it, but it remains an incorrect assumption.
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