Putting the Post Apocalyptic Wasteland back into RIFTS

[slade the sniper]

Ok, my game is going great, my PCs have irritated both the Federation of Magic AND the Coalition, made friends with Native Americans and Vampires…

But now, they are wandering around North America and I was hoping for a much more Post-Apocalyptic feel than the “glittering apocalypse” (as described here. I am using a lot of the ideas of Colonel_Tetsuya listed here (specifically the no GPS making flying and navigation difficult, lack of nuclear reactors, bad radio ranges, etc.).

The difficulty is that I am wanting to make “getting there” fun as opposed to just rolling some dice and saying “Yeah, you make it to the Pacific Northwest in *clatter* um, 23 days and…”

To my knowledge it takes 60-70 days minimum to cross the US by horse, and takes on average about 4 to 5 months. If you are going cross country by vehicles it apparently takes 27 days from Tennessee to Washington (I figure we can add 3 days going all the way to the coast, to make it an even 30)

To me the Post-Apocalyptic, Demon Infested, Wasteland needs to have things in it, besides…wasteland (very counter-intuitive, I know).
So, currently I have small towns every 100-ish miles (~200 people or DB’s) with nothing much going on…and stampedes of random animals, weather effects (like a Rift Storm, Radiation Storms, Magic Storms, dust storms, snow and rain, heat waves, wildfires, floods), mountains, cliffs, rivers, etc. Anything I am missing, or do I just need to accept the fact that travel is just not going to be a difficulty to PCs.

-STS

[Kurseteller]

Ok, my game is going great, my PCs have irritated both the Federation of Magic AND the Coalition, made friends with Native Americans and Vampires…

But now, they are wandering around North America and I was hoping for a much more Post-Apocalyptic feel than the “glittering apocalypse” (as described here. I am using a lot of the ideas of Colonel_Tetsuya listed here (specifically the no GPS making flying and navigation difficult, lack of nuclear reactors, bad radio ranges, etc.).

The difficulty is that I am wanting to make “getting there” fun as opposed to just rolling some dice and saying “Yeah, you make it to the Pacific Northwest in *clatter* um, 23 days and…”

To my knowledge it takes 60-70 days minimum to cross the US by horse, and takes on average about 4 to 5 months. If you are going cross country by vehicles it apparently takes 27 days from Tennessee to Washington (I figure we can add 3 days going all the way to the coast, to make it an even 30)

To me the Post-Apocalyptic, Demon Infested, Wasteland needs to have things in it, besides…wasteland (very counter-intuitive, I know).
So, currently I have small towns every 100-ish miles (~200 people or DB’s) with nothing much going on…and stampedes of random animals, weather effects (like a Rift Storm, Radiation Storms, Magic Storms, dust storms, snow and rain, heat waves, wildfires, floods), mountains, cliffs, rivers, etc. Anything I am missing, or do I just need to accept the fact that travel is just not going to be a difficulty to PCs.

-STS

Don't forget Electromagnetic/magic jamming from Leylines, making Radio and Radar much shorter range, maybe even just 1 mile to 1/2 mile. Also weather that come from nowhere with 200-300 mph wind sheer to keep everyone grounded. Also thick forest and jungle and hills slowing down travel to about 25-50 mph.

[slade the sniper]

Great idea! Going a bit further, could ley-lines basically act as walls that stop EM transmissions, thus making each area incapable of contacting anything outside of that area?

Another thing I do is put up kill sats in orbit (old one from Pre-RIFTS and new ones from Mutants in Orbit) that shoot down anything above 1000 feet of altitude or faster than 200 mph. Why? Because I hate fast flight making the world feel "too small" so that if you want to go fast you have to stealthed to the max, or fly really slow, or really low.

-STS

[Killer Cyborg]

To me the Post-Apocalyptic, Demon Infested, Wasteland needs to have things in it, besides…wasteland (very counter-intuitive, I know).
So, currently I have small towns every 100-ish miles (~200 people or DB’s) with nothing much going on…and stampedes of random animals, weather effects (like a Rift Storm, Radiation Storms, Magic Storms, dust storms, snow and rain, heat waves, wildfires, floods), mountains, cliffs, rivers, etc. Anything I am missing, or do I just need to accept the fact that travel is just not going to be a difficulty to PCs.

-STS

Mine this for ideas:
https://archive.org/details/msdos_Orego ... e_The_1992

Do they have a body fixer? If not, watch out for dying of dysentery. (or some kind of D-Bee fever, or Andromeda Strain)
What are their supplies like?
What are their vehicles like, and can they cross rivers effectively?
Do they have the skills to repair equipment/vehicles that break?
Do they have the skills to hunt for food?
Do they have the skills to navigate successfully?
If so, come up with opportunities for them to use these skills.

Also, "small towns with not much going on?"
At least a few of these could be small towns where not much seems to be going on, but there's something underneath the surface. That's a staple of any traveling sci-fi, from Star Trek to Tri-Gun to Stargate.
Or maybe they're towns where really nothing much is going on... until the PCs arrive. "Everything was good until the stranger(s) came to town)" is a trope in all kinds of fiction. The strangers don't have to be Bad Guys, just bored people who aren't familiar with the local customs or ecology.
Perhaps nothing much is going on, except for the routine human sacrifice to the monsters that lurk in the woods. The sacrifice has been going on for a long as anybody can remember, and the village claims it keeps them safe.
If the PCs are unable to abide that sort of thing, they might kill the monsters in the woods... only to later discover that those monsters were the only things keeping something worse at bay.
Even PCs trying to help the locals can get into trouble/adventure.
Small towns where nothing much is going on can be ripe for drama. Small town people get bored, and some might try to stow away in order to escape their dreary life. A farmer's daughter (or son) might party with the PCs too hard for their parents' taste, and there might be a shotgun wedding (or simply a drunken wedding, ala Firefly).

[kaid]

Ok, my game is going great, my PCs have irritated both the Federation of Magic AND the Coalition, made friends with Native Americans and Vampires…

But now, they are wandering around North America and I was hoping for a much more Post-Apocalyptic feel than the “glittering apocalypse” (as described here. I am using a lot of the ideas of Colonel_Tetsuya listed here (specifically the no GPS making flying and navigation difficult, lack of nuclear reactors, bad radio ranges, etc.).

The difficulty is that I am wanting to make “getting there” fun as opposed to just rolling some dice and saying “Yeah, you make it to the Pacific Northwest in *clatter* um, 23 days and…”

To my knowledge it takes 60-70 days minimum to cross the US by horse, and takes on average about 4 to 5 months. If you are going cross country by vehicles it apparently takes 27 days from Tennessee to Washington (I figure we can add 3 days going all the way to the coast, to make it an even 30)

To me the Post-Apocalyptic, Demon Infested, Wasteland needs to have things in it, besides…wasteland (very counter-intuitive, I know).
So, currently I have small towns every 100-ish miles (~200 people or DB’s) with nothing much going on…and stampedes of random animals, weather effects (like a Rift Storm, Radiation Storms, Magic Storms, dust storms, snow and rain, heat waves, wildfires, floods), mountains, cliffs, rivers, etc. Anything I am missing, or do I just need to accept the fact that travel is just not going to be a difficulty to PCs.

-STS

If they are heading to washington state they would be heading up through a lot of simvan/native controlled areas. a lot of those states a town every 100ish miles is probably even more than needed. Even today a lot of the states out that direction are pretty sparse more likely to run across transient native villages than actual towns.

[kaid]

One other thing to remember when traveling that far they cannot count on buying food at a town every couple days or at least they should not be able to do so. Finding food and water is going to very much slow down their traveling speed especially once they get to the northern tier states on the way to washington. Also ammunition going that route they are more likely to find magic using natives than people who can recharge eclips. There are some solar or gas powered options to do that but they are not very fast the party would have to think carefully before going into a situation guns blazing.

[Riftmaker]

this has been done already its called CHAOS EARTH

[glitterboy2098]

To me the Post-Apocalyptic, Demon Infested, Wasteland needs to have things in it, besides…wasteland (very counter-intuitive, I know).
So, currently I have small towns every 100-ish miles (~200 people or DB’s) with nothing much going on…and stampedes of random animals, weather effects (like a Rift Storm, Radiation Storms, Magic Storms, dust storms, snow and rain, heat waves, wildfires, floods), mountains, cliffs, rivers, etc. Anything I am missing, or do I just need to accept the fact that travel is just not going to be a difficulty to PCs.

-STS

so basically, your going to run things as the books actually tell you? *spockeyebrow*


also, those time estimates you quoted are good, but if you look those assume the current road and trail infrastructure. even the vehicle one used back roads, gravel roads, and dirt roads. that is, existing travel routes that are more or less maintained on a regular basis. in rifts both would be much longer, as historical examples would show, because there would be few roads and trails already in existance. a group would have to travel slower, scout ahead to check out the ground and potential obstacles, would have to deal with bad terrain more often, not to mention spend more time just figuring out where they are, since there is no GPS, no decent maps, hell, in some areas no maps at all. it would be a return to the early days of American continental exploration. getting across the continent in under a year would be an amazing feat. (remember it took Louis and Clarke 2 years to go from missouri to oregon and back.. and that was taking boats halfway on each leg. a rifts explorer might have more technological advantages in terms of survival and comforts.. but the actual rate of travel would not be too different.)

Great idea! Going a bit further, could ley-lines basically act as walls that stop EM transmissions, thus making each area incapable of contacting anything outside of that area?

pretty much nothing suggests anything of the sort though. unless you want to have a global constant mystic triangle leyline storm. which would screw over the entire setting pretty darn quick.

frankly a better solution is to use the reality.. that long range radios would not be very common outside the major cities. and the short range stuff would be mainly things like walkie talkies.. good for the town and the surrounding couple miles, not not farther. if they need to send a message farther, your looking at old fashioned methods.. send a dude on a horse or on foot. maybe a bicycle if they have one. probably not a truck, car, or motorbike unless it is super urgent.

Another thing I do is put up kill sats in orbit (old one from Pre-RIFTS and new ones from Mutants in Orbit) that shoot down anything above 1000 feet of altitude or faster than 200 mph. Why? Because I hate fast flight making the world feel "too small" so that if you want to go fast you have to stealthed to the max, or fly really slow, or really low.

then you'd have to give the orbital stats actual useful ranges and damages.. and you'd run into the problem that they'd be shooting up the ground all the time. do you really want to have regular orbital bombardments?

just use what would be the reality.. places you can use for safe landing and takeoff are fairly rare (you need large enough, flat enough, firm enough.. natural sites for it are damn rare in real life) and most people in rifts don't bother to put in the effort to set up even a dirt-strip. so outside of a few VTOl craft (which are mostly military controlled, or too small to carry a full party, or both) air travel is really damn inconvenient. if you aren't going between major cities, it might as well not exist. and very few places adventurers will want to go will be places where you can actually reach given the above issues.


frankly a lot of the issues people bring up with this stuff is just the result of people not bothering to read the books closely enough, and failing to spend some time researching the issues involved with this sort of thing in reality, and then applying logic and reason.

[slade the sniper]

frankly a lot of the issues people bring up with this stuff is just the result of people not bothering to read the books closely enough, and failing to spend some time researching the issues involved with this sort of thing in reality, and then applying logic and reason.

I could just use the "Magic, LOL" argument to ignore reality, logic and reason...however, I think more issues are found in reading the books and trying to figure just how the world works when we have the Coalition having millions of troops in MDC equipment and the ability to have completely air based VTOL transport (look at the Death's Head transport and tell me that thing is not capable of VTOL), nuclear missiles, robotic forces and having the capability AND the desire to expand mercilessly while being opposed by: rag-tag bands of adventurers, poorly equipped DB towns, small human settlements with few resources and some magical/psionic communities that have poor large scale combat capabilities, especially when you think of the relatively short range of those capabilities. Even when you look at the failings of the Coalition in Heroes of Humanity...the logistical tail required to "recycle everything" is huge.
The original book was like "Mad Max" with cyborgs and magic. The current books are much more focused on world-wide/megaverse-wide goings on. I like both aspects of the game, but it is difficult for me to reconcile the two without finding some way to basically handicap the world powers that be, lest they overpower their portion of the world relatively quickly and plucky heroes better pick a side or be crushed very quickly.
Perhaps that was the point of Chaos Earth, as Kevin and gang may have realized that the post-apocalyptic part of the setting was getting slowly changed as the game line matured, and thus created Chaos Earth as a way of keeping that setting very post-apocalyptic.
But, as always, Rule Zero must be enacted since we all play very different games with very different groups, and in my experience with my groups, if I do not give reasons why they can't steal a Death's Head transport and an AC-29 and proceed to destroy and take over the Spirit West over a series of linked campaigns spanning 10 years, then they will do just that...and I make it a point to not just say "no" without having reasons.

-STS

[slade the sniper]

I went to the FLGS and picked up Hell Followed for Dead Reign and that book had about 90% of what I was looking for...very Mad Max feel and the natural disasters section is great.

-STS

[glitterboy2098]

frankly a lot of the issues people bring up with this stuff is just the result of people not bothering to read the books closely enough, and failing to spend some time researching the issues involved with this sort of thing in reality, and then applying logic and reason.

I could just use the "Magic, LOL" argument to ignore reality, logic and reason...however, I think more issues are found in reading the books and trying to figure just how the world works when we have the Coalition having millions of troops in MDC equipment and the ability to have completely air based VTOL transport (look at the Death's Head transport and tell me that thing is not capable of VTOL), nuclear missiles, robotic forces and having the capability AND the desire to expand mercilessly while being opposed by: rag-tag bands of adventurers, poorly equipped DB towns, small human settlements with few resources and some magical/psionic communities that have poor large scale combat capabilities, especially when you think of the relatively short range of those capabilities. Even when you look at the failings of the Coalition in Heroes of Humanity...the logistical tail required to "recycle everything" is huge.
The original book was like "Mad Max" with cyborgs and magic. The current books are much more focused on world-wide/megaverse-wide goings on. I like both aspects of the game, but it is difficult for me to reconcile the two without finding some way to basically handicap the world powers that be, lest they overpower their portion of the world relatively quickly and plucky heroes better pick a side or be crushed very quickly.
Perhaps that was the point of Chaos Earth, as Kevin and gang may have realized that the post-apocalyptic part of the setting was getting slowly changed as the game line matured, and thus created Chaos Earth as a way of keeping that setting very post-apocalyptic.
But, as always, Rule Zero must be enacted since we all play very different games with very different groups, and in my experience with my groups, if I do not give reasons why they can't steal a Death's Head transport and an AC-29 and proceed to destroy and take over the Spirit West over a series of linked campaigns spanning 10 years, then they will do just that...and I make it a point to not just say "no" without having reasons.

-STS

actually i think you just proved my point for me. it is very clear you did not actually read my post, nor give it actual consideration. instead you decided to complain as if your own head-canons are real, and erect strawmen that have absolutely nothing to do with the topics i brought up.

[slade the sniper]

First off, I respect you and have agreed with pretty much everything you have ever posted previous to this, but...

actually i think you just proved my point for me. it is very clear you did not actually read my post, nor give it actual consideration. instead you decided to complain as if your own head-canons are real, and erect strawmen that have absolutely nothing to do with the topics i brought up.

What the actual ****? Let's put your snark back in the box...

If you think I proved your point, I really can’t help you. I do not think my tone was “complaining,” but if you wish to believe it so, then my all means do so if it will assuage your ego. My head canon is “real,” so to speak in a philosophical manner… though I highly doubt that you would want to engage in a debate about MY subjective reality vs YOUR subjective reality about a game that is based LITERALLY on subjective reality.

As for strawman arguments, perhaps the wall of text below will whet your appetite for actual argumentation. However, the “Magic, LOL” was specifically designed to annoy you (and it did!), with your presumption that Rifts is based on logic and reason. As for my arguments about the Coalition and their technology and logistic capabilities, I was answering you, since you presented nothing other than your erroneous beliefs about radios and lack of knowledge about the Rifts technological base, the inability to infer technological requirements, skill synergy (shortwave radio would be pretty easy to figure out theoretically with Radio:Basic and Mathmatics – Advanced, and then built with Electrical Engineer) and presupposing that Operators, Rogue Scientists, Techno Wizards and the other classes presented in the main book are dolts who would never attempt to explore and push the envelope of technological and magical knowledge. The only other thing that could be a strawman argument is that I invoked Rule Zero…and if you have an issue with that, then perhaps role-playing isn’t for you.

In the interest of not having a gigantic “quote” mess, I’ll just use your original post and consider each point.

so basically, your going to run things as the books actually tell you? *spockeyebrow*

I can’t tell if that is sarcasm or troll-ish, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say “Thank you.”

also, those time estimates you quoted are good, but if you look those assume the current road and trail infrastructure. even the vehicle one used back roads, gravel roads, and dirt roads. that is, existing travel routes that are more or less maintained on a regular basis. in rifts both would be much longer, as historical examples would show, because there would be few roads and trails already in existance. a group would have to travel slower, scout ahead to check out the ground and potential obstacles, would have to deal with bad terrain more often, not to mention spend more time just figuring out where they are, since there is no GPS, no decent maps, hell, in some areas no maps at all. it would be a return to the early days of American continental exploration. getting across the continent in under a year would be an amazing feat. (remember it took Louis and Clarke 2 years to go from missouri to oregon and back.. and that was taking boats halfway on each leg. a rifts explorer might have more technological advantages in terms of survival and comforts.. but the actual rate of travel would not be too different.)

Ok, this paragraph is literally adding more evidence to my assertion. That means that you do understand what I am talking about. What you are not understanding is that when you add in technology of the sort that creates VTOL aircraft

Spoiler:

that fly at 40,000 feet (giving a visual horizon of 244 miles in every direction…) at Mach 1 for 20 hours, giving a maximum flight radius of 6700 miles (670 mph x 10 hours) which means it can easily fly to Berlin (distance of ~4400 miles) or Moscow (distance of 4970 miles) or even freaking Beijing (distance of 6585 miles) or Kabul (6951 miles). The Earth has a diameter of 7917 miles, which means that if you wanted to (and there are always scientists and adventurers to try it), a Death’s Head transport can circumnavigate the Earth. They could have regular service from Chi-Town to ANYWHERE on EARTH at faster speeds than they do now, with almost as much transport capacity per modern airframe (carries about 10 less than a 777 for longer range).

you are changing the world from a wilderness to a giant landing zone (using my logic and reason), thus damaging the verisimilitude of the setting presented by Erin Tarn in the main book.

So, provided everyone in Chi-Town is not a moron, there should be some sort of aeronautic exploration organization that uses something with at least the same capabilities as a standard issue military transport, which means that the transport can make a radar map spanning 400 miles wide and ~6000 miles long every day (2.4 million square miles), and the Earth only has 196.9 million square miles of surface area.

Which means that barring some unforeseen circumstance, the Earth will be mapped in ~82 days. So, what is preventing the Coalition from making accurate maps of the entire Earth in 3 months?

pretty much nothing suggests anything of the sort though. unless you want to have a global constant mystic triangle leyline storm. which would screw over the entire setting pretty darn quick.

How so? We already have a “constant mystic triangle leyline storm” in both the Bermuda Triangle and the one off the coast of South America. Those seem to be just fine in the setting.

frankly a better solution is to use the reality.. that long range radios would not be very common outside the major cities. and the short range stuff would be mainly things like walkie talkies.. good for the town and the surrounding couple miles, not not farther. if they need to send a message farther, your looking at old fashioned methods.. send a dude on a horse or on foot. maybe a bicycle if they have one. probably not a truck, car, or motorbike unless it is super urgent.

Or, you know, use the reliable magical methods, or the reliable technological methods. As for “reality,” long range radios are fairly common. Things like shortwave radio has continental range, to wit: “By 1924 many additional specially licensed amateurs were routinely making transoceanic contacts at distances of 6000 miles (~9600 km) and more.”

One of the problems with using reality as a template, is that technology has a progression, and you can’t just sort of skip steps. Otherwise, you are thinking that long range missiles with a range of 400 miles+ are going to be fired off like dumb rockets with an azimuth and elevation, totally negating the fact that those missiles are guided (+3 to strike) or smart (+5 to strike). And, I hate to tell you, but smart weapons are self guided, meaning they HAVE to have some sort of internal guidance system, and if are doing ground attack, they need a MAP.

So, in order to have smart missiles, they have to have either an external source of positional data (GPS, which does not exist in Rifts) or an inertial navigation system. In order to path around things, the gunner has to either know something is there (meaning a map) or the missile has to know something is there (meaning a map).

Therefore, by logic and inference, the Coalition (and every other major power with smart missiles) has to have maps. Those maps are obviously very accurate in order to justify a +5 to strike on a missile fired from 400+ miles away.

Additionally, you have to remember the feats of engineering and travel with 1960’s technology (we went to the Moon and made ICBMs and nuclear submarines), and Rifts is far beyond that…like mini-nuclear reactors on almost everything bigger than powered armor.

then you'd have to give the orbital stats actual useful ranges and damages.. and you'd run into the problem that they'd be shooting up the ground all the time. do you really want to have regular orbital bombardments?

Why is giving the orbital satellites stats a bad thing? Also, the killer sat theory is in the main book, although it is contested by the Great Erin Tarn. The Mutants in Orbit book goes a bit further and basically says that there is a “debris ring” around Earth, and that most of the killer sats were destroyed. So, yeah, an invisible ring of debris AND (some) killer sats…

As for regular orbital bombardments… I find that to be hilarious! It would be funny if towns had a sign saying “NO FLYIN” were absolutely paranoid about anything bigger than a bird flying around their town because last time they got a “rod from god” as punishment for “violatin’ the laws o’ nature!”

just use what would be the reality.. places you can use for safe landing and takeoff are fairly rare (you need large enough, flat enough, firm enough.. natural sites for it are damn rare in real life) and most people in rifts don't bother to put in the effort to set up even a dirt-strip. so outside of a few VTOl craft (which are mostly military controlled, or too small to carry a full party, or both) air travel is really damn inconvenient. if you aren't going between major cities, it might as well not exist. and very few places adventurers will want to go will be places where you can actually reach given the above issues.

“Safe landing and takeoff areas are rare”: True, but you have mecha to make a runway faster than we can today...

“VTOL craft are military controlled”: True-ish, but Operators (a BASIC OCC in the MAIN BOOK) can make them (Aircraft Mechanics skill).

“Air travel is inconvenient”: Why? The locations of the airports are inconvenient, but not the mode of travel, unless you have evidence to the contrary you forgot to type.

“Very few places adventurers will want to go will be places where you can actually reach given the above issues”. False. You cannot make this claim with any authority. Unless you want to make a poll to gather data, this is not an argument, it is a belief or, at most, an anecdote.

frankly a lot of the issues people bring up with this stuff is just the result of people not bothering to read the books closely enough, and failing to spend some time researching the issues involved with this sort of thing in reality, and then applying logic and reason.

Frankly, you are wrong. Reading the books closely leads to the exact problems I presented in my first post. Specifically, the juxtaposition of Post-Apocalyptic Magic Wilderness with Ultra-Tech World Power Cyber Cities is difficult when you do read the books closely AND spend some time researching the issues involved with this sort of thing in reality AND applying logic and reason.

I do not have a problem with the setting, or the rules. I have a problem reconciling the two competing visions of the world and was looking for ways to do so.

-STS

[Kurseteller]

Great idea! Going a bit further, could ley-lines basically act as walls that stop EM transmissions, thus making each area incapable of contacting anything outside of that area?

Another thing I do is put up kill sats in orbit (old one from Pre-RIFTS and new ones from Mutants in Orbit) that shoot down anything above 1000 feet of altitude or faster than 200 mph. Why? Because I hate fast flight making the world feel "too small" so that if you want to go fast you have to stealthed to the max, or fly really slow, or really low.

-STS

I would say yes. I think they actually did this in Chaos Earth.

[Kurseteller]

Slade, I think you have some bad gouge on how radios, radar, and guidance on weapons systems work. First, quality signal strength is needed to broadcast over a long distance, without having to go to an FM/AM setup, especially when your dealing with large amount of normal atmospheric conditions. Anything that will "bounce" radio signal , like rain and ambient humidity, will reduce the effectiveness of radio/radar. When you put in lightning storms, storms where blood, fish, spaghetti with a chance of meatballs fall from the sky, as well as just plain ley line storms, then your getting a very good insetting reason for intermittent coms.

As for the smart missile argument, If you are making them Harpoon ASM or Tomahawks, then yes they need GPS. If you have a next gen computer, that is inside the missile that controls the missile until you hit the Target, then no, you don't need GPS or even a MAP to hit the target. Just a radar, Ladar, or sonar active inertial guidance.

[glitterboy2098]

Slade, I think you have some bad gouge on how radios, radar, and guidance on weapons systems work. First, quality signal strength is needed to broadcast over a long distance, without having to go to an FM/AM setup, especially when your dealing with large amount of normal atmospheric conditions. Anything that will "bounce" radio signal , like rain and ambient humidity, will reduce the effectiveness of radio/radar. When you put in lightning storms, storms where blood, fish, spaghetti with a chance of meatballs fall from the sky, as well as just plain ley line storms, then your getting a very good insetting reason for intermittent coms.

As for the smart missile argument, If you are making them Harpoon ASM or Tomahawks, then yes they need GPS. If you have a next gen computer, that is inside the missile that controls the missile until you hit the Target, then no, you don't need GPS or even a MAP to hit the target. Just a radar, Ladar, or sonar active inertial guidance.

not to mention he is massively, massively, overestimating how many mach 1+ VTOL craft there.. not to mention how many of those exist outside of military control. which means that is a strawman argument. the majority of aircraft outside the military are slow and not VTOL. which means the issue is not nearly as huge as he thinks it is. and even if VTOL aircraft were common, the fact is that most fields and open areas do not have the kind of traits to allow the aircraft to land safely. you can't just land an aircraft anywhere you want, the ground has to have a certain degree of firmness (to keep the aircraft from sinking into the ground), smoothness (too rough or too steep and the aircraft will not be able to land), and lack of debris (Foreign Object Damage would still effect the turbines of a nuclear jet.)
the fact is that unless you have areas that are regularly cleared, graded, and rolled it is really dangerous and tricky to land and take off.


and regarding guidance.. Tomahawks actually were first designed in the 70's, and deployed in the 80's, before the GPS system became operational. they did not get GPS guidance until the block III variants in 1993, and even after that the GPS guidance is a backup to the TERCOM, DSMAC, and inertial systems. TERCOM is a contour matching system, basically using a mapping radar to compare the shape of the ground to a preloaded flight plan's model. (this was technology first developed in the 1950's during early missile weapon experiments, and matured in the 1960's as part of the SLAM project. while that nuclear powered cruise missile never happened, the guidance technology went on to be used in all american cruise missiles, even today.)
DSMAC is an optical system doing something similar, a digital image of the path (usually taken by recon flights) is uploaded, and the missile matches what it sees to the image it has to verify the path.
Inertial system are simple systems that have been around since the 1800's, basically a combination of gyroscopes and clocks that read the direction and orientation of the missile and how long it has been traveling in that particular orientation and direction. a flight plan is preprogrammed into it, in the vein of "fly on such and such a bearing for 5 minutes at a certain speed, then change to bearing so-and-so, etc.) to put it right at the target. purely inertial systems tend to lack the pinpoint accuracy of the oother methods, but they will work even when maps and GPS no longer work. all it requires is the firing unit to know where the target is relative to itself.

oh and regarding mapping.. flying overhead, regardless of speed, is not going to give you a usable map. because a detailed map is useless without lat./Long. positioning. without GPS you cannot match up a map to such as you go. which means that for accurate maps you would need to send out survey teams on the ground, to take sightings and use things like astrolabes to pinpoint the sighting location for the map they are drawing. i have no doubt that the CS has overflown most of north america (well, east of the rockies, given how the rockies are described) and know where most of the major cities and such not hidden by magic/dimensional weirdness are. but below a certain size i doubt that the CS ever bothered to pinpoint their exact locations.



just because the game was not written the way that you would prefer it does not mean the game is bad.

and yes, you did prove my point, because i advocated reading the material in detail (which you have apparently not done), doing research into the issues that would be in play (which you also do not appear to have done), and then have an informed discussion on it. (which your rants above cannot hardly be considered.)

[slade the sniper]

Clearly, this thread has gone off the rails somewhere. Therefore, let me make my original assertion again.
TL;DR: Rifts went from being Mad Max (Gasoline and bullets are hard to find) to Star Wars (High Tech and Magic are all powerful).
1) In my opinion, Rifts has two competing visions A) Post-Apocalyptic Magic Wasteland where technology is rare, the wilderness is scary and monsters are everywhere, and B) a “glittering apocalypse” where Triax, the CS, the New Navy, Atlantis, etc are world powers have regional hegemony.
2) These two visions have the effect, in my opinion, of squeezing out the Post-Apocalyptic Magic Wasteland into relatively very small, and unimportant areas. I think that these areas are “relatively small” due to the perceived prevalence of technology that makes them so (such as aircraft, long range missiles, reliable ground transportation [NOT infrastructure, but vehicles], full conversion cyborgs, etc.).
My OP was to determine if there ways of filling up that wasteland with something noteworthy. That need was filled by the Dead Reign supplement Hell Follows.
Now, on to the fun of whatever this is…

Slade, I think you have some bad gouge on how radios, radar, and guidance on weapons systems work. First, quality signal strength is needed to broadcast over a long distance, without having to go to an FM/AM setup, especially when your dealing with large amount of normal atmospheric conditions. Anything that will "bounce" radio signal , like rain and ambient humidity, will reduce the effectiveness of radio/radar. When you put in lightning storms, storms where blood, fish, spaghetti with a chance of meatballs fall from the sky, as well as just plain ley line storms, then your getting a very good insetting reason for intermittent coms.

Kursetellar, I like that you are backing up your idea about ley lines being walls that stop EM transmissions. Thank you. As for the rest of your argument, my point was to prove that long range radio communication is possible and the equipment required is not high tech (for Rifts), thusly it is not outside the realm of possibility for someone, somewhere to have made contact with other portions of the Earth beyond the next hilltop. I realize that it is difficult and not an exact science which is why it is called “antennae theory” and not the Law of Radio Propagation.
I am not really catching your point, unless you are just relaying a lot of factors that reduce radio comms. If so, thank you. If not…um…what are you saying.

As for the smart missile argument, If you are making them Harpoon ASM or Tomahawks, then yes they need GPS. If you have a next gen computer, that is inside the missile that controls the missile until you hit the Target, then no, you don't need GPS or even a MAP to hit the target. Just a radar, Ladar, or sonar active inertial guidance.

My point was that in order to accurately fire smart missiles at a ground target beyond visual range, your faction needs a “map” or some other way to get to their target. With self-guided munitions (with no external guidance such as GPS, laser guidance, radar, etc.), on a BVR target, the missile has to know where to go. Otherwise you are using azimuth, elevation and range which makes it “artillery” and not a smart missile (or shall we pull out our smartbooks and start arguing about Excaliber rounds and 120mm APMI/HEGM while we play FDC?)
I think that we are talking past each other. I am NOT disagreeing with your last sentence, and you are not refuting mine with regard to BVR targets.

not to mention he is massively, massively, overestimating how many mach 1+ VTOL craft there.. not to mention how many of those exist outside of military control. which means that is a strawman argument.

Well, how many are there? My entire argument was showing how ONE Mach 1 VTOL aircraft, under military control could do it. You said:

places you can use for safe landing and takeoff are fairly rare (you need large enough, flat enough, firm enough.. natural sites for it are damn rare in real life) and most people in rifts don't bother to put in the effort to set up even a dirt-strip. so outside of a few VTOl craft (which are mostly military controlled, or too small to carry a full party, or both) air travel is really damn inconvenient. if you aren't going between major cities, it might as well not exist. and very few places adventurers will want to go will be places where you can actually reach given the above issues.

I refuted your statement with:

I could just use the "Magic, LOL" argument to ignore reality, logic and reason...however, I think more issues are found in reading the books and trying to figure just how the world works when we have the Coalition having millions of troops in MDC equipment and the ability to have completely air based VTOL transport (look at the Death's Head transport and tell me that thing is not capable of VTOL), nuclear missiles, robotic forces and having the capability AND the desire to expand mercilessly while being opposed by: rag-tag bands of adventurers, poorly equipped DB towns, small human settlements with few resources and some magical/psionic communities that have poor large scale combat capabilities, especially when you think of the relatively short range of those capabilities. Even when you look at the failings of the Coalition in Heroes of Humanity...the logistical tail required to "recycle everything" is huge.

That is not a strawman argument. You sound like you took a Philosophy class last semester…(and yes, that is an ad hominem)

the majority of aircraft outside the military are slow and not VTOL. which means the issue is not nearly as huge as he thinks it is. and even if VTOL aircraft were common, the fact is that most fields and open areas do not have the kind of traits to allow the aircraft to land safely.

True

you can't just land an aircraft anywhere you want,

Actually, you can…once.

the ground has to have a certain degree of firmness (to keep the aircraft from sinking into the ground), smoothness (too rough or too steep and the aircraft will not be able to land), and lack of debris (Foreign Object Damage would still effect the turbines of a nuclear jet.)

I will agree with you, but where are the air intakes on the Death’s Head transport? I really don’t know.

the fact is that unless you have areas that are regularly cleared, graded, and rolled it is really dangerous and tricky to land and take off.
and regarding guidance.. Tomahawks actually were first designed in the 70's, and deployed in the 80's, before the GPS system became operational. they did not get GPS guidance until the block III variants in 1993, and even after that the GPS guidance is a backup to the TERCOM, DSMAC, and inertial systems. TERCOM is a contour matching system, basically using a mapping radar to compare the shape of the ground to a preloaded flight plan's model. (this was technology first developed in the 1950's during early missile weapon experiments, and matured in the 1960's as part of the SLAM project. while that nuclear powered cruise missile never happened, the guidance technology went on to be used in all american cruise missiles, even today.)

And you are PROVING MY POINT…They have an internal map to “compare the shape of the ground” with a preloaded map. Meaning that the US had a map that they had FIRST before they could launch the missile.

DSMAC is an optical system doing something similar, a digital image of the path (usually taken by recon flights) is uploaded, and the missile matches what it sees to the image it has to verify the path.

Wow, what is it matching? Perhaps, a map?

Inertial system are simple systems that have been around since the 1800's, basically a combination of gyroscopes and clocks that read the direction and orientation of the missile and how long it has been traveling in that particular orientation and direction. a flight plan is preprogrammed into it, in the vein of "fly on such and such a bearing for 5 minutes at a certain speed, then change to bearing so-and-so, etc.) to put it right at the target. purely inertial systems tend to lack the pinpoint accuracy of the oother methods, but they will work even when maps and GPS no longer work. all it requires is the firing unit to know where the target is relative to itself.

[sarcasm]Wow, really? I didn’t know that [/sarcasm] My point is that with an INS, the gunner has to know where the target is, meaning that they have a map. Having a map, means something has gone there, or observed that terrain and made some sort of record of it. “fly on such and such a bearing for 5 minutes at a certain speed, then change to bearing so-and-so” requires the gunner/missileer/targeteer to know where the target is relative to the point of launch, and for a target beyond BVR requires a map.

oh and regarding mapping.. flying overhead, regardless of speed, is not going to give you a usable map.

Except for all those maps in Google Earth, or aerial recon units… and remember, a series of photographs stitched together can create a usable map.

because a detailed map is useless without lat./Long. positioning. without GPS you cannot match up a map to such as you go.

Except when GPS didn’t exist, right?

which means that for accurate maps you would need to send out survey teams on the ground, to take sightings and use things like astrolabes to pinpoint the sighting location for the map they are drawing.

Dude, it is like you go from Lewis and Clark to GPS…there is a bit of time between the two where people were making maps without hand drawing them and without GPS.

i have no doubt that the CS has overflown most of north america (well, east of the rockies, given how the rockies are described) and know where most of the major cities and such not hidden by magic/dimensional weirdness are. but below a certain size i doubt that the CS ever bothered to pinpoint their exact locations.

Ok, this is reasonable. I think the CS is paranoid enough to do that with everywhere they can go, you do not.

just because the game was not written the way that you would prefer it does not mean the game is bad.

At what point did I say the “game is bad”? Because, I definitely remember saying:

I do not have a problem with the setting, or the rules.

Oh, yeah, there it is…a quote that says that I do not think the game is bad…weird.

and yes, you did prove my point, because i advocated reading the material in detail (which you have apparently not done), doing research into the issues that would be in play (which you also do not appear to have done), and then have an informed discussion on it. (which your rants above cannot hardly be considered.)

I disagree with your assertions, and you respond with your opinions on my reading, research and discussion method. The first time you made that argument it was an ad hominem logical fallacy. The second time is actually a strawman. It is a good thing your opinions have no value. But, hey, we are free to disagree.

-STS