Dragon Hatchling Techno Wizard?

[VR Dragon]

I was wondering how a dragon could pick up a magical OCC?

Some books have stated that a dragon has the skills and abilites of a warlock here or some other class there.

So I was interested in a dragon hatchling loving TW stuff so much he would take up the profession. Maybe as a magical "toy" maker.

So how would a dragon go about learning these things?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Ive never seen Hatchlings with those stats though, its always adults.

So.. become an adult.

[Axelmania]

Chaing Ku might be able to start off. Basilisk?

Any who can't start with one can use the changing to new OCC rules in errata.

Might force the dragon XP table regardless though.

[VR Dragon]

Changing to new OCC in errata? Could you please point me to where i can find this?

Only OCC changing rules i know of are in Adventures on the High Seas and someone thinks that only counts for the Palladium Fantasy game only.

[ShadowLogan]

Changing to new OCC in errata? Could you please point me to where i can find this?

Only OCC changing rules i know of are in Adventures on the High Seas and someone thinks that only counts for the Palladium Fantasy game only.

IINM, those are the same rules. You can find a variation on them w/n Rifts in a few places (becoming a Cyborg, Detoxed Juicer, City Rat Retirement), but the link on the website is found under Resources => Cutting Room Floor => Dual O.C.C.s (Found under the PF area of the page): http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

I was wondering how a dragon could pick up a magical OCC?

Some books have stated that a dragon has the skills and abilites of a warlock here or some other class there.

So I was interested in a dragon hatchling loving TW stuff so much he would take up the profession. Maybe as a magical "toy" maker.

So how would a dragon go about learning these things?

I don't think the Dragon so much changes from an RCC to an OCC. Given quick look at D&G's Dragons it looks like they have to be an Adult or 100year old Hatchling before they can pick up a magic discipline.

As for how Dragons pick up magic disciplines? I'd sit down and to to reverse engineer a few of the dragon NPCs that are known to picked up a discipline or two. Might require a few sources.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I was wondering how a dragon could pick up a magical OCC?

Some books have stated that a dragon has the skills and abilities of a warlock here or some other class there.

So I was interested in a dragon hatchling loving TW stuff so much he would take up the profession. Maybe as a magical "toy" maker.

So how would a dragon go about learning these things?

Dragon hatchlings, When Making a Level 1 Character, cannot start as an OCC. They have to start as the Dragon RCC.

-That being said I would restrict a DrHat from changing to an OCC till they are at least level 5 because the text says that they are exploring their own natural abilities.
-After that I would allow them to Add the magic class powers & abilities and just the OCC skills to their RCC. Freezing the RCC stuff till the char has progressed though the Class's normal class progression to match levels. Then the RCC stuff would un-freeze and both would progress using the RCC table.

I would suggest that the character is not allowed to 'pick up' a new class again after the above till they gain a new level or gain an additional 100,000 exp.

Note that dragons have a fixed racial PPE. So the class PPE stuff would be totally ignored for dragons.


Following the above, if you wanted to make a dragon TW, then it would start out @ L5 dragon (temp. frozen) & L1 TW. Play as normal till the levels match then they move together.

Playing it this way means that dragons can pick things up pretty easily, but progress slower once they are comfortable about their skills.
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The canon changing class rules for Rifts, as directed in RUE, are in the PF2 High Seas book.
There have been several ""discussions"" about these and the differing opinions about how to apply them in various places in the forums. To say there is not consensus would be accurate.

[kaid]

Also one has to remember dragon hatchlings tend to be really young. Most player dragon hatchlings are pretty fresh out of the egg and are still learning how to dragon. For most hatchlings there simply was not enough time for them to learn how to be an OCC because they have not been active long enough and are still a bit exuberant for schooling.

Now once you get some levels under your belt it would be a GM call but should be doable.

[Dunia]

Not to be a nay-sayer, but I find that a bit munchkin-ish. You get the bonus of being a dragon fro the powers that dragon get as they level. Why not let the humans and other non-mdc races pick teh various OOCs that exist

[Freemage]

I know this isn't the Savage Rifts board, but I figured I'd throw out how you can come close-but-not-quite-there in that adaptation:

Start with a Dragon Hatchling, then take AB: Weird Science at some point in your development, and then the Gadgeteer and McGuyver Edges. It's not enough to make you a true Techno-Wizard (you don't get the extra-fast version of Gadgeteer, nor the innate bonus with machines of all sorts), but you WOULD be able to make technological gizmos and gadgets (but not permanent TW devices). The real issue would be whether or not the GM would let you repair TW items.

[Library Ogre]

Myself, I'd be inclined to simply change the Dragon's natural spellcasting to that of a techno-wizard and call it a day, once he'd learned enough background information to be able to properly study Techno-Wizardry. I'd say the Dragon would need the OCC skills of a Techno-wizard (except maybe Land navigation and the languages) to begin study, and beginning study as a Techno-wizard would freeze their current magical advancement... so a 3rd level Dragon who picked up techno-wizardry would stay a 3rd level caster (not that that would impede them too much; they could still learn spells, but they wouldn't gain in strength unless channeled through a device, since TWs are poor spellcasters).

[Mlp7029]

Chaing Ku description says: " The Chiang-Ku who studies spell magic like that used by a ley line walker or temporal wizard must learn the magic by the usual method of instruction from a mage. Knowledge gained from such tutelage is limited to magic, magic combat, language and reading skills from that O.C.C.; the other skills are not applicable. The dragon's magic knowledge and powers increase per level, but the Dragon R.C.C. experience table is used rather than the O.C.C. table." I think you could argue the dragon could learn magic from a Techo-Wizard but this language would seem to exclude the skills needed to make TW devices. Chaing Ku also get a lot of RCC skills compared to other dragons so I think it would be reasonable to allow a Chaing Ku to substitute the skills of the Techo-Wizard OCC for it's RCC skills. That is not by the rules as written I admit.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Not to be a nay-sayer, but I find that a bit munchkin-ish. You get the bonus of being a dragon fro the powers that dragon get as they level. Why not let the humans and other non-mdc races pick the various OOCs that exist

There are examples of old dragons that have two or three magic classes within their noted skills.
If you are talking about the bonuses that dragons get when they become an adult…*shrugs* they do not come into effect unless the game goes hundreds of years in game play. Otherwise,,…..what bonus powers that are gain per level???? Which ones do they ALL get?


Unless there is a racial, family/clan or location restriction for an OCC, they are available to all characters.
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@Mack
While all dragons have an Innate understanding of magic when they hatch. This ""understanding"" is not ``spell casting ability``. To cast spells they have to become some sort of mage. I would let a dragon just learn the abilities of a magic class (other then TW & CyberMage) in two or three weeks game time. (And if they choose to be a LLW have them be a RMB LLW w/o the auto-access to the special LL spells.)
So what the writer should have written was ""All dragon hatchlings have full understanding of magic and and spell casting abilities when they hatch, even thou they have no spells at first level.""

And yes I see the conflict internally in the text where the writer is presuming knowledge is ability. KS (or whoever the writer was) should of written what he meant. Instead of using words that do not mean what he meant.

Even so 'the normal way' of learning magic is to train to be a mage. The writer should of written that they "...could be taught spells through the normal teaching magic rules….". Yes the normal poor quality of thinking things completely through before writing for rifts books.

The rest of the text in that paragraph speaks to GMs making NPC Dragon hatchlings and how many spells the would of learned.
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Which also brings up how does the 'Full Understanding of Magic' translate into a % for the Principles of Magic skill for use in creating new and variant spells?

[VR Dragon]

I wasn't expecting to have a hatchling right out of the egg dive right into learning techno wizardry. But I was curious how a hatchling might start down the way of gaining abilities of said class?

Hatchling is a dragon under the age of 600 years. A lot can happen in 599 years. Regular play can see a dragon hatchling reaching lvl 5-6 in under 5 years in game time. Hell Lvl 10 could be possible if a GM would run a game long enough, and that would all be long before reaching 599 years old.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I wasn't expecting to have a hatchling right out of the egg dive right into learning techno wizardry. But I was curious how a hatchling might start down the way of gaining abilities of said class?

Hatchling is a dragon under the age of 600 years. A lot can happen in 599 years. Regular play can see a dragon hatchling reaching lvl 5-6 in under 5 years in game time. Hell Lvl 10 could be possible if a GM would run a game long enough, and that would all be long before reaching 599 years old.

Yep, but that has no bearing on how Dragons work.

They are creatures of Magic, and magically change upon becoming an adult, not literally overnight but damn near, and drastically.

They can't learn OCCs while a hatchling.

They obviously -can- learn the abilities of Magic OCCs upon becoming an Adult.

[Mack]

I see a hatchling having trouble when it comes to studying the Engineering skills required.

[Axelmania]

Were there any besides the Chaing Ku in WB3 who start with an OCC or have earlier access?

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would note that the rules covering DH magic in RUE, only cover the dragon types presented in RUE.
All the others have other rules about magic that they follow in the text for each type. These are fiund in the Dragons and Gods sourcebook.

Edited to mean what I meant.
Since we were talking about DH Magic…I added a few words so people just looking at this post alone, and not reading the topic as a whole, would not be confused.

[dreicunan]

I would note that the rules covering DH in RUE only cover the dragon types presented in RUE.
All the others have other rules that they follow in the text for each type.

As noted in the other thread, page 158 of RUE says otherwise. It specifically says to use the RUE rules for skills and level advancement (the meaning of which a GM will need to decide).

[dreicunan]

I see a hatchling having trouble when it comes to studying the Engineering skills required.

Only if they can't dimension hop.
Step one: Go to Hero's Unlimited Earth.
Step two: Go to college and study the skills needed using the rules for learning additional skills.
Step three: Go to Rifts Earth and study Techno-Wizardry.

An bit of a time investment, but quite doable.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I see a hatchling having trouble when it comes to studying the Engineering skills required.

Only if they can't dimension hop.
Step one: Go to Hero's Unlimited Earth.
Step two: Go to college and study the skills needed using the rules for learning additional skills.
Step three: Go to Rifts Earth and study Techno-Wizardry.

An bit of a time investment, but quite doable.

If the dragon has a mechanical temperament/interests they will find a way to build things. Just like how it is only humans mages with a mechanical temperament/interests that end up as TWs.

The hard part for the player that has no such interests to fake said interests to play the char with them.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I see a hatchling having trouble when it comes to studying the Engineering skills required.

Only if they can't dimension hop.
Step one: Go to Hero's Unlimited Earth.
Step two: Go to college and study the skills needed using the rules for learning additional skills.
Step three: Go to Rifts Earth and study Techno-Wizardry.

An bit of a time investment, but quite doable.

Considering the actual ability to create TW items is exclusive to the TW class(es), no, its competely impossible.

The skill Techno-Wizardry Construction is required to nuild TW items. Full stop. No amount of skill in Electrical, Mechanical, Robotics or Vehicle Engineering will allow you to create a TW item. Ever.

Techno-Wizardry Construction is exclusive to the TW class(es) (TW Ninja gets it as well, IIRC, and the optional TW classes in that Rifter article which preceeded and was the basis for the overhaul in RUE).

Hatchling Dragons cannot learn new OCCs, and therefore, can NOT create TW items by the RAW. The moment they become adults, they can learn magic OCC abilities (apparently, as many adults have 2 or 3 such classes listed in their stat blocks) - but Adults are NOT available as PCs.

[Blue_Lion]

I see a hatchling having trouble when it comes to studying the Engineering skills required.

Only if they can't dimension hop.
Step one: Go to Hero's Unlimited Earth.
Step two: Go to college and study the skills needed using the rules for learning additional skills.
Step three: Go to Rifts Earth and study Techno-Wizardry.

An bit of a time investment, but quite doable.

If the dragon has a mechanical temperament/interests they will find a way to build things. Just like how it is only humans mages with a mechanical temperament/interests that end up as TWs.

The hard part for the player that has no such interests to fake said interests to play the char with them.

I am confused what you are saying are you saying that only humans can be TWs, or that it is mages with a mechanical temperament.
I would think for most mages what type of mage they get as a OCC depends on how they learn to use magic. Most would prefer a style that complements their personality but what they get may be heavily defined by who trained them in magic. A ley line walker trains ley line walkers (and varrients of those.) TW train TWs.

What I find amusing is a Spinx with no hands can be a TW.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If the dragon has a mechanical temperament/interests they will find a way to build things.

rewrites…

If the dragon has a mechanical temperament/interests they will find a way to build things and magic items out of those things.



-----
They also could develop their magic abilities and learn three typea of magic and become an alchemist.

[dreicunan]

I see a hatchling having trouble when it comes to studying the Engineering skills required.

Only if they can't dimension hop.
Step one: Go to Hero's Unlimited Earth.
Step two: Go to college and study the skills needed using the rules for learning additional skills.
Step three: Go to Rifts Earth and study Techno-Wizardry.

An bit of a time investment, but quite doable.

Considering the actual ability to create TW items is exclusive to the TW class(es), no, its competely impossible.

The skill Techno-Wizardry Construction is required to nuild TW items. Full stop. No amount of skill in Electrical, Mechanical, Robotics or Vehicle Engineering will allow you to create a TW item. Ever.

Techno-Wizardry Construction is exclusive to the TW class(es) (TW Ninja gets it as well, IIRC, and the optional TW classes in that Rifter article which preceeded and was the basis for the overhaul in RUE).

Hatchling Dragons cannot learn new OCCs, and therefore, can NOT create TW items by the RAW. The moment they become adults, they can learn magic OCC abilities (apparently, as many adults have 2 or 3 such classes listed in their stat blocks) - but Adults are NOT available as PCs.

Step 4: Find a Techno-Wizard who has changed into a Rogue Scholar and thus can teach things to other people
Step 5: Learn Techno-Wizardry Construction from said Techno-Wizard/Rogue Scholar.

May as well note right now that the ability to teach skills to others has no limitations placed on it regarding what skills can be taught. While it does mention that the learner gets the skill equal to secondary skill, nowhere is it limited to only skills on the secondary skill list. So a little extra inconvenience, but still doable.

[VR Dragon]

Heh someone hasnt read dragons and gods.

And so much of RUE really makes a needless mess of quite a few areas and things.

[VR Dragon]

And the whole idea that the RUE rules for hatchlings only counts for the RUE book dragons is dumb. No need for double standards, stick to the less rules is more and no need to create double standards.

Dragons and gods works just fine for the dragon hatchlings in RUE.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And the whole idea that the RUE rules for hatchlings only counts for the RUE book dragons is dumb. No need for double standards, stick to the less rules is more and no need to create double standards.

Dragons and gods works just fine for the dragon hatchlings in RUE.

The only DH hatchlings that reference the "Player notes" in RUE about what magic they get, are the ones in RUE. Since the DH magic text is what I was talking about…..and corrected to say that by adding words to say that…then added more words…..

Unfortunately, the dragon types presented in RUE are not presented in PF:D&G. So I could not <just go with the D&G texts about DH magic>.

[dreicunan]

And the whole idea that the RUE rules for hatchlings only counts for the RUE book dragons is dumb. No need for double standards, stick to the less rules is more and no need to create double standards.

Dragons and gods works just fine for the dragon hatchlings in RUE.

The only DH hatchlings that reference the "Player notes" in RUE about what magic they get, are the ones in RUE. Since the DH magic text is what I was talking about…..and corrected to say that by adding words to say that…then added more words…..

Unfortunately, the dragon types presented in RUE are not presented in PF:D&G. So I could not <just go with the D&G texts about DH magic>.

That is only true if you assume that level advancement does not include magic. If it does, then page 158 makes it clear that RUE supercedes Dragons and Gods for hatchlings (it specifically says to use RUE rules for skills and level advancement for dragon hatchlings from that book). There is no clear canon answer on that due to the way that it is worded, so a GM needs to make their own call.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I see a hatchling having trouble when it comes to studying the Engineering skills required.

Only if they can't dimension hop.
Step one: Go to Hero's Unlimited Earth.
Step two: Go to college and study the skills needed using the rules for learning additional skills.
Step three: Go to Rifts Earth and study Techno-Wizardry.

An bit of a time investment, but quite doable.

Considering the actual ability to create TW items is exclusive to the TW class(es), no, its competely impossible.

The skill Techno-Wizardry Construction is required to nuild TW items. Full stop. No amount of skill in Electrical, Mechanical, Robotics or Vehicle Engineering will allow you to create a TW item. Ever.

Techno-Wizardry Construction is exclusive to the TW class(es) (TW Ninja gets it as well, IIRC, and the optional TW classes in that Rifter article which preceeded and was the basis for the overhaul in RUE).

Hatchling Dragons cannot learn new OCCs, and therefore, can NOT create TW items by the RAW. The moment they become adults, they can learn magic OCC abilities (apparently, as many adults have 2 or 3 such classes listed in their stat blocks) - but Adults are NOT available as PCs.

Step 4: Find a Techno-Wizard who has changed into a Rogue Scholar and thus can teach things to other people
Step 5: Learn Techno-Wizardry Construction from said Techno-Wizard/Rogue Scholar.

May as well note right now that the ability to teach skills to others has no limitations placed on it regarding what skills can be taught. While it does mention that the learner gets the skill equal to secondary skill, nowhere is it limited to only skills on the secondary skill list. So a little extra inconvenience, but still doable.

If we're going to fully debunk this idea, we'll start with steps one and two being completely invalid.

If you're playing Rifts, you're playing Rifts, not Heroes Unlimited. The rules for Rifts apply. Simply going to Heroes Unlimited Earth (if your GM allows you) doesn't change the rules you're playing by. Palladium's games ARE different. The Megaversal system is good because the differences can be easily translated and converted because the base system is (close) to the same, but they ARE different games.

As for Step 4 - you're reading a different book than I am, because here's what RUE has to say on the subject:

1. Storyteller & Teacher. Rogue Scolars are natural born storytellers and educators with a flair for making dry subjects like history, science and math sound exciting and fun. A passion that enables them to teach others over a period of a time (equal to a Secondary Skill after 1D6+8 weeks of lessons; with at least 12 hours a week devoted to the teaching and another 10 hours of study by the student). Also see O.C.C. Bonuses

It's worthing noting that the OCC bonuses provide no further explanation - just an MA bonus, IQ bonus, Perception Bonus, and an SDC Bonus.

Nowhere in that description does it say he can teach any skill he knows. (In fact, it is so poorly written that it doesn't even say or even IMPLY, ffs, that you have to know a skill; god this is awful). The only mention of skills at all is Secondary Skills (that it is "equal" to a Secondary Skill) - well, RUE has very specific rules on Secondary Skills - only certain skills can even be Secondary Skills (unlike RMB where it was the same as OCC related just without bonuses).

Ergo, he can't teach anything that cant be a Secondary Skill.

Even if he could (which it doesn't say he can), the TW Construction rules are quite clear that the person constructing the device MUST be a Techno-Wizard; he can have other TW's assist him, and even non-TW assistants, but the guy actually doing the skill roll and creating item MUST be a TW. (RUE pages 130+)

Just.. seriously, stop trying to turn this into some heroic mental gymnastics exercise.

Dragon Hatchlings are plenty powerful, being hugely tanky self-regenerating MDC creatures that can double as mages and mid-level psionicists all in one package, teleport, fly, shapechange...

They dont need to be able to poach other OCC's inherent powers.

RAW, can't be done.

They cant learn the abilities of other OCCs as hatchlings. (And the only reason we know Adults can is because many of them are stat'ed out with "Has all the abilities of LLW, TW, Necromancer, etc" in their stat lines. There's NEVER (though ive only skimmed Dragons & Gods once, so i could be wrong here) been an explicit statement that they can pick up magic OCC abilities as Adults).

They would have be asbsurdly high level to even be able to have all the skills required to make Techno Wizardry work (Mechanical, Electrical Engineering, others), including a skill that is utterly unique to the Techno-Wizard class as of RUE (i checked, in RMB this skill didn't exist, and creating TW items was simply a power of the TW class (listed on page 91+ as "Special Techno Wizard Powers"); so as of RUE, the Ninja TW is useless as he cant create TW items!), that, even if we go by your questionable interpretation of a horribly vague rule, he'd have to find a TW that had become a Rogue Scholar to teach him (seems highly unlikely)...

And then at the end of the day, they still can't do it, because they are still not a Techno Wizard O.C.C. Best they could do would be to help a real TW.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And the whole idea that the RUE rules for hatchlings only counts for the RUE book dragons is dumb. No need for double standards, stick to the less rules is more and no need to create double standards.

Dragons and gods works just fine for the dragon hatchlings in RUE.

The only DH hatchlings that reference the "Player notes" in RUE about what magic they get, are the ones in RUE. Since the DH magic text is what I was talking about…..and corrected to say that by adding words to say that…then added more words…..

Unfortunately, the dragon types presented in RUE are not presented in PF:D&G. So I could not <just go with the D&G texts about DH magic>.

That is only true if you assume that level advancement does not include magic. If it does, then page 158 makes it clear that RUE supercedes Dragons and Gods for hatchlings (it specifically says to use RUE rules for skills and level advancement for dragon hatchlings from that book). There is no clear canon answer on that due to the way that it is worded, so a GM needs to make their own call.

*shakes head*What RUE says, when using the dragons that are detailed in the PF:D&G sourcebook are used in rifts, to convert them to use the RUE Dragon RCC skills and level advancement.

In other words: when importing the dragon type detailed in the D&G book for the char to convert them to use the skills found in the RUE dragon RCC and the RUE Dragon RCC exp table.
Tags you PMs.

I don't like having the same argument in two topics.
And..
Correcting things that if they were read in context there would be not need correcting.

[VR Dragon]

Palladium has rules that make a mess of things or limit things with a good damn reason to.

HU has the "Can't have 2 alter physical form powers or related active at once." And the game is better for ignoring it.

There is one rule that should always be followed and that is, "Ignore any rule that you find diminishes the enjoyment of the players and GMs."

Thank you, my question about Hatchling dragons learning to make techno wizard stuff has been answered.

There is no real or good reason they can't learn to make magic items. Techno wizard stuff are magic items and it is clearly stated in the book that dragons consider TW stuff magic weapons/items.

And I have no intention of a hatching fresh out of the egg jumping right into and picking up a magical OCC. But by level 5 sounds good and reasonable. And depending on how your GM runs things, a hatchling (any dragon under 600 years old) can be level 5 before 2 years of game time has passed.

[Axelmania]

Hatchling Dragons cannot learn new OCCs

Can I get a refreshor on where it says this?

In the very least what of Chaing-Ku who explicitly can start with a magic OCC of choice?

[VR Dragon]

Dragons and gods say use the rules in adventures on the high seas for a dragon to learn a new OCC.

Those rules have been reprinted in the cutting room floor so it is "Not" just limited to the PF setting only.

Its how it works in the game everywhere.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Dragons and gods say use the rules in adventures on the high seas for a dragon to learn a new OCC.

Those rules have been reprinted in the cutting room floor so it is "Not" just limited to the PF setting only.

Its how it works in the game everywhere.

No, the PF:AotHS changing class rules HAVE NOT been reprinted in the cutting room floor.

*One of the pages (deleted form the current website, but it is the internet, where nothing really goes away…) there is Pre HS changing class rules and were superseded by the HS rules when they were published.
*The other Page only modifies the PF:HS rules. If you count posted (unpublished) text as canon. This page does say that upon gaining a new level RCCs can change their class.

[VR Dragon]

Wow you love to argue don't you? Nothing wrong with that.

And the stuff in the High Seas book works just fine.

And it was summed up on that cutting room floor page just fine too.

AND more still, Palladium books is a megaversal system. So yes Virginia, the rules from one setting work just fine in another. Tweak SDC to MDC or vis a versa as needed.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/cutt ... alocc.html

Warning: Keep your posts about the content of the thread, rather than making comments bout other posters

[drewkitty ~..~]

When people post blatantly false statements they get corrected.

[VR Dragon]

nothing false. Thanks. Truth is personal mostly unless your talking about universal truths.

But here IS THE OFICCIAL Stance.

ONE RULE SYSTEM – every genre – countless worlds – endless adventure.

So that big worded part? whats that mean? Oh yeah so what works in one place works in the other? Nope my lie detector is not going off the charts.

So no need to call someone a lier or say what they post is wrong just because you have other ideas.

And cutting room floor was stuff that was left out or something. It is offical and not just something from a rifter. It is what is it.

Cannon, boom gun, bazooka or whatever.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yes, that is a nice tag line they came up with.

And each setting has it's own tweaks.

Which does mean when something changes in one setting's rule set, it does not effect the other settings' rule sets. With the understanding that GM's can import any rule they want to for their games as part of their house rules.
----
No, I really don't like to argue. It is annoying to have to spell out every nit picking thing because someone is not reading my post while keeping the context of the topic in mind.

Good night.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

nothing false. Thanks. Truth is personal mostly unless your talking about universal truths.

But here IS THE OFICCIAL Stance.

ONE RULE SYSTEM – every genre – countless worlds – endless adventure.

So that big worded part? whats that mean? Oh yeah so what works in one place works in the other? Nope my lie detector is not going off the charts.

Your reading comprehension isn't up, then. Go actually read some of the other RPGs Palladium puts out. Some of the diverge A LOT from the way the rules are presented in Rifts (and are quite a bit more playable, particularly internally, because of it). The core megaversal system is still the basis, but the customizations to it depend a lot on which game we're talking about. It makes converting easy, but the mere fact that there are 3 (and a half) Conversion Books aught to give the lie to the "its all one system and all the rules from all the games apply equally no matter what" argument.

You try to tell me how Multiple Dodge works in Rifts.

Go ahead, ill wait. Because it quite literally can't work. Because Ninjas and Superspies is a different game. Heroes Unlimited is a different game. The rules on how skills are obtained and work are entirely different. A lot of the skills themselves, even with the same name, are different (the SDC games tend to have substantially higher attribute bonii on a lot of the physical skills, especially Gymnastics and Acrobatics).

So no need to call someone a lier or say what they post is wrong just because you have other ideas.

Its not an idea. Its straight out of the rules. Dragons cant learn other stuff until they are adults. Full stop. There are even rules in D&G about what they CAN learn after they become adults.

Ergo, you're wrong.

By trying to say that the rules dont say you're wrong because "ignore the rules if you dont like them" is supposedly a rule (it isn't), is just admitting you're wrong. Because you are.

And cutting room floor was stuff that was left out or something. It is offical and not just something from a rifter. It is what is it.

Cannon, boom gun, bazooka or whatever.

Canon. The word is Canon.

[dreicunan]

I see a hatchling having trouble when it comes to studying the Engineering skills required.

Only if they can't dimension hop.
Step one: Go to Hero's Unlimited Earth.
Step two: Go to college and study the skills needed using the rules for learning additional skills.
Step three: Go to Rifts Earth and study Techno-Wizardry.

An bit of a time investment, but quite doable.

Considering the actual ability to create TW items is exclusive to the TW class(es), no, its competely impossible.

The skill Techno-Wizardry Construction is required to nuild TW items. Full stop. No amount of skill in Electrical, Mechanical, Robotics or Vehicle Engineering will allow you to create a TW item. Ever.

Techno-Wizardry Construction is exclusive to the TW class(es) (TW Ninja gets it as well, IIRC, and the optional TW classes in that Rifter article which preceeded and was the basis for the overhaul in RUE).

Hatchling Dragons cannot learn new OCCs, and therefore, can NOT create TW items by the RAW. The moment they become adults, they can learn magic OCC abilities (apparently, as many adults have 2 or 3 such classes listed in their stat blocks) - but Adults are NOT available as PCs.

Step 4: Find a Techno-Wizard who has changed into a Rogue Scholar and thus can teach things to other people
Step 5: Learn Techno-Wizardry Construction from said Techno-Wizard/Rogue Scholar.

May as well note right now that the ability to teach skills to others has no limitations placed on it regarding what skills can be taught. While it does mention that the learner gets the skill equal to secondary skill, nowhere is it limited to only skills on the secondary skill list. So a little extra inconvenience, but still doable.

If we're going to fully debunk this idea, we'll start with steps one and two being completely invalid.

If you're playing Rifts, you're playing Rifts, not Heroes Unlimited. The rules for Rifts apply. Simply going to Heroes Unlimited Earth (if your GM allows you) doesn't change the rules you're playing by. Palladium's games ARE different. The Megaversal system is good because the differences can be easily translated and converted because the base system is (close) to the same, but they ARE different games.

As for Step 4 - you're reading a different book than I am, because here's what RUE has to say on the subject:

1. Storyteller & Teacher. Rogue Scolars are natural born storytellers and educators with a flair for making dry subjects like history, science and math sound exciting and fun. A passion that enables them to teach others over a period of a time (equal to a Secondary Skill after 1D6+8 weeks of lessons; with at least 12 hours a week devoted to the teaching and another 10 hours of study by the student). Also see O.C.C. Bonuses

It's worthing noting that the OCC bonuses provide no further explanation - just an MA bonus, IQ bonus, Perception Bonus, and an SDC Bonus.

Nowhere in that description does it say he can teach any skill he knows. (In fact, it is so poorly written that it doesn't even say or even IMPLY, ffs, that you have to know a skill; god this is awful). The only mention of skills at all is Secondary Skills (that it is "equal" to a Secondary Skill) - well, RUE has very specific rules on Secondary Skills - only certain skills can even be Secondary Skills (unlike RMB where it was the same as OCC related just without bonuses).

Ergo, he can't teach anything that cant be a Secondary Skill.

Even if he could (which it doesn't say he can), the TW Construction rules are quite clear that the person constructing the device MUST be a Techno-Wizard; he can have other TW's assist him, and even non-TW assistants, but the guy actually doing the skill roll and creating item MUST be a TW. (RUE pages 130+)

Just.. seriously, stop trying to turn this into some heroic mental gymnastics exercise.

Dragon Hatchlings are plenty powerful, being hugely tanky self-regenerating MDC creatures that can double as mages and mid-level psionicists all in one package, teleport, fly, shapechange...

They dont need to be able to poach other OCC's inherent powers.

RAW, can't be done.

They cant learn the abilities of other OCCs as hatchlings. (And the only reason we know Adults can is because many of them are stat'ed out with "Has all the abilities of LLW, TW, Necromancer, etc" in their stat lines. There's NEVER (though ive only skimmed Dragons & Gods once, so i could be wrong here) been an explicit statement that they can pick up magic OCC abilities as Adults).

They would have be asbsurdly high level to even be able to have all the skills required to make Techno Wizardry work (Mechanical, Electrical Engineering, others), including a skill that is utterly unique to the Techno-Wizard class as of RUE (i checked, in RMB this skill didn't exist, and creating TW items was simply a power of the TW class (listed on page 91+ as "Special Techno Wizard Powers"); so as of RUE, the Ninja TW is useless as he cant create TW items!), that, even if we go by your questionable interpretation of a horribly vague rule, he'd have to find a TW that had become a Rogue Scholar to teach him (seems highly unlikely)...

And then at the end of the day, they still can't do it, because they are still not a Techno Wizard O.C.C. Best they could do would be to help a real TW.

Your whole line of reasoning for "can only teach secondary skills" is predicated on "equal to" meaning "limited to," but
"Equal to a secondary skill" does not mean "limited to secondary skills" (as I already noted). It would mean that they don't get any bonuses to the skill apart from IQ bonuses. No limits on the skills to be taught means no limits, although having to actually know something in order to teach would be something that I think all would agree is understood.
The skill is not an OCC ability (go back and look in RUE; it isn't listed there). It is just listed as a skill under OCC skills with a 10% bonus to the base of 70% + 2% per level. So a Dragon Hatchling who learning it would get it at 70% plus IQ bonuses if any.

Feel free to cite the text in RUE that states that someone with the Techno-Wizardry Construction skill but who isn't in the Techno-Wizard OCC can't use the skill to roll to create TW items.

Yes, I agree that it is highly unlikely, but not impossible unless a GM chooses to make it impossible.

Edit: Nevermind; I misremembered the text and upon double-checking I'd made a mistake about NPC hatchlings over 100 years old in Dragons and Gods.

[dreicunan]

And the whole idea that the RUE rules for hatchlings only counts for the RUE book dragons is dumb. No need for double standards, stick to the less rules is more and no need to create double standards.

Dragons and gods works just fine for the dragon hatchlings in RUE.

The only DH hatchlings that reference the "Player notes" in RUE about what magic they get, are the ones in RUE. Since the DH magic text is what I was talking about…..and corrected to say that by adding words to say that…then added more words…..

Unfortunately, the dragon types presented in RUE are not presented in PF:D&G. So I could not <just go with the D&G texts about DH magic>.

That is only true if you assume that level advancement does not include magic. If it does, then page 158 makes it clear that RUE supercedes Dragons and Gods for hatchlings (it specifically says to use RUE rules for skills and level advancement for dragon hatchlings from that book). There is no clear canon answer on that due to the way that it is worded, so a GM needs to make their own call.

*shakes head*What RUE says, when using the dragons that are detailed in the PF:D&G sourcebook are used in rifts, to convert them to use the RUE Dragon RCC skills and level advancement.

In other words: when importing the dragon type detailed in the D&G book for the char to convert them to use the skills found in the RUE dragon RCC and the RUE Dragon RCC exp table.
Tags you PMs.

I don't like having the same argument in two topics.
And..
Correcting things that if they were read in context there would be not need correcting.

Then stop posting inaccurate information in both threads. The player note in RUE starts by saying "Other Species of Dragon Hatchling." It is talking about what you do with Dragon Hatchlings. If you are going to throw around charges of not reading things in context, you should probably make sure to actually check the text of what you inaccurately citing!

Edit: Like I just did with my above post, whereupon discovering my error I admitted it!

[VR Dragon]

Lets see, reading comprehension.... I have been playing Palladium since the late 80s. I have been reading the books for as long or longer. I have also been in college a long damn time so I have a brain that works, yay science.

Lets see, setting flavor.

HU is a modern setting so people can simply go to school and learn new stuff.
Rifts hates education, The CS for example will kill you if you know how to read. And there is no really good established schools for character to go to then.
Sorry I don't play Ninjas and Super Spies.

Multi Dodge is multi dodge and works in each setting how it works in another. Dodging that doesn't use up an action. You can attempt to dodge any attack that comes your way without an action. But I have never run into multi dodge. Auto dodge and Multi Parry I have read about.

Skill bonuses are different from setting to setting... flavor and something I find odd. But then the push for a megaversal set of rules was not as strong back 2 decades ago.

Seems to me you are confusing setting flavor with "these rules only work here and no where else". Yet as conversion books as evidence, they work just fine. You know not everything requires tweaking to have it be dropped in and run with, but some stuff might need a tickle here and there.

And no, once again for a different person. I am not wrong.

Its funny, doesn't dragons and gods also say "young dragon" ? hmm adult dragon is not young dragon. Hatchling, Adult, Ancient. Which is young? not the middle or last stages.

Also Dragons, using the Changing OCC rules are able to start a OCC, learn it for a while, and then change again to another so they learn that to. A hatch has 599 years, a lot can happen, and a player could become lvl 15 before that time if in a long enough run game.

But then you have to ADAPT some of the rules for a player since dragons are talked about as being NPCs but players CAN PLAY THEM TOO.

As for "Ignore any rule that ruins the fun". Well that is a simple rule that exists across so many game systems and makers and it is also a part of palladium books. So once again, I am not wrong. As a matter of fact i am pretty damn sure this is where house rules started? Yes? No?...yessssss.

Lets use HU 2nd Ed book for reference.

Page 74 under Combining Super Powers.

Characters who have 2 different Altered Physical structure powers cannot use them at the same time. But then it also says, flaming rock or flaming metal is okay. Hmm.... but thats two alter powers at once? Damn seems like someone IGNORED something there?

The published Villain Kelvin! Half APS fire and half APS ice at the same time? No couldn't be! Not another clear example of IGNORING A RULE IF ITS GETS IN THE WAY OF FUN!

Powers such as tentacles which is a alter physical power being used with body weaponry? Long reaching tentacles with blades on the end? Breaks the rule but seems fun, allow it? yep.

Plenty of other examples. So don't call me stupid or insult my reading comprehension again. Maybe you should work on yours. Or you could just tone down the hostility. And work with the official workings of things (like stuff published by actual Palladium books on their website under the cutting room floor and in their books), OR you can house rule things to your view, but don't call it official.

[VR Dragon]

Drew....

One thread was asking how a dragon hatchling could learn to make TW items or become a Techno Wizard so he could since that was the likely needed thing.

This thread was asking about clarification of the entry in the stupid RUE book that was confusing me with how it was worded. It was leading to me think that a dragon would only be able to learn spell of his level or less yet the entry contradicted itself when it said by level 5 a dragon would also have spell from over his level as well.

But that got cleared up thankfully.

So thank you everyone for the help in this thread. No other stuff needed on my part.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*shakes head*What RUE says, when using the dragons that are detailed in the PF:D&G sourcebook are used in rifts, to convert them to use the RUE Dragon RCC skills and level advancement.

In other words: when importing the dragon type detailed in the D&G book for the char to convert them to use the skills found in the RUE dragon RCC and the RUE Dragon RCC exp. table.

Then stop posting inaccurate information in both threads. The player note in RUE starts by saying "Other Species of Dragon Hatchling." It is talking about what you do with Dragon Hatchlings. If you are going to throw around charges of not reading things in context, you should probably make sure to actually check the text of what you inaccurately citing!

Edit: Like I just did with my above post, whereupon discovering my error I admitted it!

I actually say when I am stating an opinion or presenting a non-canon option. What seams to be your problem is that I'm presenting those opinions or non-canon options AT ALL. So in answer to your …I will call it a request…Not Going To Happen. I will continue to present my opinions (still presented as my opinions) and non-canon options (still presented as non-canon options). So you will need to learn to recognize the words I use to indicate when I present canon, opinions and non-canon options (yes, I present them differently) so you will not ruin your health or board status by overreacting.

Will I continue to post things that you need to follow the context of the topic. yes. I am human so I will ether err or presume people will read them in the context they were presented.
---------------

Since we are both reading the same raw text…
What part of what I said in this post (see my quoted self above) do you disagree with?

Note that you are speaking to someone who sees all the different settings' rules as separate and unaffected by other settings' rules. Which is why I phrased what I said the way I said it.

Example: The only setting effected by rules stated in a rifts book is the rifts setting.

[eliakon]

My answer here?
RAW I would interpret the answer as being "No Dragon Hatchlings can not officially be Techno Wizards under normal circumstances"
I would also say that if the GM is fine with a Dragon Hatchling Techno Wizard that it is not really that big of a deal. Simply have the Dragon use their skill slots to take as many of the right skills as possible grant them the TW Construction skill, and state that their spell casting is done TW style. Boom, done.

[Axelmania]

*One of the pages (deleted form the current website, but it is the internet, where nothing really goes away…) there is Pre HS changing class rules and were superseded by the HS rules when they were published.

I'm not sure what you mean by deleted. I thought what we have know was what was always up, just reformatted.

The other Page only modifies the PF:HS rules.

I would say they stand on their own, not that they are a modification.

If you count posted (unpublished) text as canon. This page does say that upon gaining a new level RCCs can change their class.

I'm not sure why you keep using that word, there's this thing... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_publishing

The Dual OCCs page was published many years ago electronically and freely.

Which is nice, I wish Palladium would do that for more of its rules (kind of like how GURPS does with its free "Lite" edition, I think D20 does something similar?) so that core books could focus more on the setting and less on showing me the same skills/rules I already own 10 paper copies of.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
I'm not sure why you keep using that word, there's this thing...
…snip

To make a distinction between the published canon text (i.e: the printed books) and the posted text on the PB website. Which has been explained to you before.
What I don't understand is why you do accept that I will continue to make this distinction because it is a real distinction.
If PB really wanted to make what they have posted in the cutting room floor into published canon they would put it into a book. As it is, it is an optional resource that only people with internet access can use.

[Axelmania]

Both are published. Whether or not something is put on paper has nothing to do with its canonicity. "The Rifter" being a good example.

Paper books are optional resources too, only people who buy the book can use them.

E-Books are also not on paper. An E-Book does not require a paper copy to be canon.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*yawns are the same old same old argument that didn't move me one bit all the times it had been presented before*

*blinks at the new argument about the published books being optional and *

e-books….
…the PDFs of the published books are in essence copies of the published books. The only ""book"" in the PB game library that is ~only an E-book~ is Rifter Zero and that is fan published e-book. Which means its contents are as canon as contents of the Fan Created Magic Topic stickied at the top of the magic and psi forum.

Even so, If PB wanted to publish the contents in a formal E-book I might grudgingly not argue about you calling that text as being canon. Because it would be in a published E-Book. But until then just accept that I will not be in any way agreeing with you on this.

[Axelmania]

Ah, but considering that KS probably uses a word processor to type up the books in the first place, it is actually the dead tree format which is copied from the electronic original.

Something doesn't need to be in a PDF format to be canon, errata on an HTML page is just as much canon. Your format requirements aren't actually supported by any kind of statements in the books.