What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

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What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Sedition 115 mentions some towns within the borders of Minnesota. Within territory that the city of Tolkeen claims belongs to them. Towns who favor the CS.

1) Adrian
2) Blue Earth
3) Alden
4) Hogswaller
5) Jamesville
6) Spring Valley
7) Chatfield
8) Wabasha

The only one of these I could find labelled on the pg 114 map is Hogswaller, which is fleshed out 115-116.

122-126 covers Vosberg who are "Political Leanings: Coalition States" and also clearly within the borders of Minnesota on the 114 map yet are not in the 115 list of Minnesota CS sympathizers. I find this confusing. Possibly an accidental omission?

My inquiry is: has anyone found any additional info about any of these 9 towns? Any world building or how they fared during the Coalition Wars?

Or maybe more specifics on their location? 114 has "small dots are CS sympathizers"

Vosberg's dot seems larger than Hogswaller's. I used the latter as a basis of what to look for and circled it in blue pen to make it easier to find.

I think I found 9 others besides those two, leading to potential spots for all of them.

1) directly above words Camp Fatale
2) to the left of Camp
3) northwest of 2
4) northwest of hogswaller
5) north of 4
6) west of borderline
7) west of the G in Skelebot Graveyards
8) east of Hillcrest
9) east of Hillcrest before the river
10) further east and slightly south of 9 but still on the west of the river dividing Minnesota and Wisconsin

I found 4 more east of the river but that would be the 5 sympathizers in Wisconsin who don't seemed important to arguments.

Anyone notice other dots? Not the easiest to discern. Many I thought were but edges were too rough so I think they were small links. I circles these 14 unlabeled ones because they were smooth and looked like perfect circles.

If anyone is confused, should I scan a crop of the map and do colored red circles?

I'm curious to know if we matched these dots to the names of the ones u labeled in sedition. Or learned their fates during and after the siege.

Interesting to note how Hillcrest/Tolkeen/Freehold are nearly directly in the path between Northfield's (a CS ally in Iowa, pg 116) to Hogswaller and the Duluth Hive.

Forcing the CS to detour west through South Dakota to protect Vosberg (assuming they would be allowed to, Tolkeen claims control of Vosberg even though they dont want it) or east around Minnesota's southeast protrusion to aid the 4 sympathizers in Wisconsin doesn't seem in the best interest of these people.

You have to wonder how well Solomon is protected from Duluth up there...
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by kirnos »

Personal opinion, the towns were destroyed or abandoned during the Sorcerer's Revenge. Whoever survived the carnage probably fled to the Chi-Town Burbs hoping for help and security, and ended living on difficult conditions, fueling their hatred for Tolkeen. Surviving men and women joined the resurgent Coalition Army for an opportunity to get revenge.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by taalismn »

Ruins of said towns are probably now listed as potential CS outpost/industrial development sites as a 'reward' for their loyalty.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Its not clear if every single town in Minnesota hosted battles though. Nothing explicit, no later mentions by name of even1?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by taalismn »

Axelmania wrote:Its not clear if every single town in Minnesota hosted battles though. Nothing explicit, no later mentions by name of even1?



'Massacre' might not be considered a 'battle'. Like casting a deluge or setting loose a wave of golems to bulldoze a community. Or just raising enough ominous signs of imminent attack with overwhelming force of supernatural alienness that the townsfolk just up and book it rather than hang around to find out.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

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In some case the sympathy could be hidden enough that Tolkeen doesn't have grounds to target.

Hogs seemed okay for example, unlike the one south of the border which Tolkeen's Shifters sent lots of evil possessing entities into.

Seems pretty moral event horizon to me. PsiBat master psis might briefly Mentally Possess Others but that is nowhere near as evil as unleashing Possessive Entities on Earth.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:In some case the sympathy could be hidden enough that Tolkeen doesn't have grounds to target.

Hogs seemed okay for example, unlike the one south of the border which Tolkeen's Shifters sent lots of evil possessing entities into.

Seems pretty moral event horizon to me. PsiBat master psis might briefly Mentally Possess Others but that is nowhere near as evil as unleashing Possessive Entities on Earth.

There are millions of Entities on earth already.
And assuming of course that the Shifters were summoning these Entities from another dimension and not controlling some of those millions...
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

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Possessive Entities are the rarest kind of entity. They don't just pop in on every rift like Poltergeists.

Regardless of whether they summoned them or not, their essentially orphaning 36 innocent children and putting them in the line of fire is deplorable.

Can we scrape together 36 Tolkeenite human kids that the CS treated like this?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

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They were occupied by CS army, all citizens enslaveddrafted for the war effort to perform back-breaking laborassist and aid or be comfort womenprovide support.

Or not. Tolkeen's supposed to be totes super evil, word of god has them as vile and reprehensible...not that their actions provide convincing back up for that claim.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:They were occupied by CS army, all citizens enslaveddrafted for the war effort to perform back-breaking laborassist and aid or be comfort womenprovide support.

Or not. Tolkeen's supposed to be totes super evil, word of god has them as vile and reprehensible...not that their actions provide convincing back up for that claim.


You don't think that slavery counts toward that?
Or misleading people into a suicidal stand?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
boring7 wrote:They were occupied by CS army, all citizens enslaveddrafted for the war effort to perform back-breaking laborassist and aid or be comfort womenprovide support.

Or not. Tolkeen's supposed to be totes super evil, word of god has them as vile and reprehensible...not that their actions provide convincing back up for that claim.


You don't think that slavery counts toward that?
Or misleading people into a suicidal stand?

It's the first mile marker on a 200 mile walk.

And the "misleading people" angle is kind of like the "Prosek abandoned his wife" argument.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by HWalsh »

The CS murdered them all. They could have been secretly harboring mages, or dragons, or anything. They were in magic user territory. They may claim to be sympathizers, but if they really were why didn't they run. Kill them all for good measure.

(That is pretty much what the CS doctrine was during the war. They killed *everything* they encountered regardless of if it was a threat, claimed to be a sympathizer, or was running away.)
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

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HW, everything? They shot at every squirrel in sight? Leveled every tree? Curious what you are paraphrasing here.

Boring, I believe Creed tried to convince people they would win. They did not. So they were misled. The question is whether he actively misled them (he didn't think victory was certain) or passively (he thought victory was certain, was wrong)
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

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Axelmania wrote:HW, everything? They shot at every squirrel in sight? Leveled every tree? Curious what you are paraphrasing here.

Boring, I believe Creed tried to convince people they would win. They did not. So they were misled. The question is whether he actively misled them (he didn't think victory was certain) or passively (he thought victory was certain, was wrong)

Prosek tried to convince people his wife was dead. She was not. So they were misled. The question is whether he actively misled them (he did an object read and lied) or passively (he forgot his various enslaved psychics existed).

Also you've repeatedly stated that CS doctrine of shooting kids was reasonable, and that CS doctrine is so trigger-happy that no mages could possibly slip past patrols and wreak havoc/win a commando war.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

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I dont even think you have to assume he "forgot" his psychics existed.

Explosion. All that is left is a finger.

Zero reason to assume she's not dead. Why waste time investigating wether shes alive or not?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Boring7 it says Karl.and jo2 didn't know she was alive. There is no basis for.thinking he lied.

CS have to worry about shapeshifters so shooting kids is reasonable while it is never reasonable for Tolkeen since CS lacks shifters.

I never said mages couldn't slip past the CS.

Tetsuya for high profile crimes I would assume object readings of all evidence is standard procedure. Even if only to see if there is a glimpse of one of the mages to know who to take revenge on. I just think the explosion smoke blocked any glimpse of Joanna being taken.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

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Axelmania wrote:HW, everything? They shot at every squirrel in sight? Leveled every tree? Curious what you are paraphrasing here.

Boring, I believe Creed tried to convince people they would win. They did not. So they were misled. The question is whether he actively misled them (he didn't think victory was certain) or passively (he thought victory was certain, was wrong)


If the CS is paranoid/evil enough that they shoot unarmed children who are running away because they might be a threat then is it unreasonable for the CS to shoot "civilians" that "claim" to be sympathetic to them? Again those "people" could be mages, or dragons, or non-magical mercs who really want to harm them.

So yeah, the CS rolls up on a village, the villagers claim to be sympathizers, the CS kills them all then uses the now abandoned town as a staging area. As stupid/ignorant/paranoid as the CS is, if they shoot a 4 year old who is clutching his mommy begging her not to die then they're going to blast the heck out of the guy waving his arms saying, "No wait! We're totally your friends!"
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Shorty Lickens »

In my game, they sent horrid creatures to punish them. Stuff from Dark Conversions. Usually mind-raping witches and such.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

HWalsh wrote:
Axelmania wrote:HW, everything? They shot at every squirrel in sight? Leveled every tree? Curious what you are paraphrasing here.

Boring, I believe Creed tried to convince people they would win. They did not. So they were misled. The question is whether he actively misled them (he didn't think victory was certain) or passively (he thought victory was certain, was wrong)


If the CS is paranoid/evil enough that they shoot unarmed children who are running away because they might be a threat then is it unreasonable for the CS to shoot "civilians" that "claim" to be sympathetic to them? Again those "people" could be mages, or dragons, or non-magical mercs who really want to harm them.


Possibly.... but I think they may have had some contacts within some of the sympathetic villages, operatives whom they trusted, or at least people whom they'd spoken to.
Dog Boys and psychics could be used to vet suspects as well.

So yeah, the CS rolls up on a village, the villagers claim to be sympathizers, the CS kills them all then uses the now abandoned town as a staging area. As stupid/ignorant/paranoid as the CS is, if they shoot a 4 year old who is clutching his mommy begging her not to die then they're going to blast the heck out of the guy waving his arms saying, "No wait! We're totally your friends!"


You're trying to paint every CS soldier with a single brush, and it's not that simple.
Some CS soldiers will shoot a 4 year-old child clutching his mommy, but not all of them will. There's still the normal spectrum of human behavior.
We do know that the CS took some prisoners from time to time--it's mentioned in the books.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by HWalsh »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Axelmania wrote:HW, everything? They shot at every squirrel in sight? Leveled every tree? Curious what you are paraphrasing here.

Boring, I believe Creed tried to convince people they would win. They did not. So they were misled. The question is whether he actively misled them (he didn't think victory was certain) or passively (he thought victory was certain, was wrong)


If the CS is paranoid/evil enough that they shoot unarmed children who are running away because they might be a threat then is it unreasonable for the CS to shoot "civilians" that "claim" to be sympathetic to them? Again those "people" could be mages, or dragons, or non-magical mercs who really want to harm them.


Possibly.... but I think they may have had some contacts within some of the sympathetic villages, operatives whom they trusted, or at least people whom they'd spoken to.
Dog Boys and psychics could be used to vet suspects as well.

So yeah, the CS rolls up on a village, the villagers claim to be sympathizers, the CS kills them all then uses the now abandoned town as a staging area. As stupid/ignorant/paranoid as the CS is, if they shoot a 4 year old who is clutching his mommy begging her not to die then they're going to blast the heck out of the guy waving his arms saying, "No wait! We're totally your friends!"


You're trying to paint every CS soldier with a single brush, and it's not that simple.
Some CS soldiers will shoot a 4 year-old child clutching his mommy, but not all of them will. There's still the normal spectrum of human behavior.
We do know that the CS took some prisoners from time to time--it's mentioned in the books.


Read SoT. It is VERY clear of the price of ANY CS soldier showing mercy.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Give me a quote, rather than a 6-book series, and I'll look into it.

Meanwhile, consider the fact that CW1 details a number of methods the CS uses for capturing/restraining mages, then try to explain to me how the CS never took any prisoners.
(CW1 30-36)
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Meanwhile,
CW1 111
Smaller kingdoms, independent communities, homesteads, and nomads around Tolkeen have tried to remain outside the conflict, but quickly find themselves under Coalition scrutiny. Even communities who insist they have never harbored D-Bees or endorsed the use of magic, must make a choice. Side with and support the Coalition Army, and assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen, or be themselves destroyed.
and
As for communities where D-Bees and/or the use of magic are found, they have no hard choice to make. They are systematically destroyed, down to every last man, woman, and child; frequently the entire town is burnt to the ground or blasted into ruin.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Give me a quote, rather than a 6-book series, and I'll look into it.

Meanwhile, consider the fact that CW1 details a number of methods the CS uses for capturing/restraining mages, then try to explain to me how the CS never took any prisoners.
(CW1 30-36)

Yeah, sometimes they wanted to torture the mages for information first...THEN kill them.

Rifts books are full of inconsistencies, but the general theme is "if it be magic, kill it with fire, no exceptions." There are D-bee labor camps, and D-bee death camps, and then sections like this:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Meanwhile,
CW1 111
Smaller kingdoms, independent communities, homesteads, and nomads around Tolkeen have tried to remain outside the conflict, but quickly find themselves under Coalition scrutiny. Even communities who insist they have never harbored D-Bees or endorsed the use of magic, must make a choice. Side with and support the Coalition Army, and assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen, or be themselves destroyed.
and
As for communities where D-Bees and/or the use of magic are found, they have no hard choice to make. They are systematically destroyed, down to every last man, woman, and child; frequently the entire town is burnt to the ground or blasted into ruin.

Kinda makin' our point for us. Anything magic/alien was purged without mercy or restraint, anybody who hesitated or balked at the Coalition army's demands got blasted as well.

As to the original question:

Most likely scenario; writer forgot about those places/didn't care enough to bring them up again. Probably got eaten by demons during the minion war because minion war.

Second most likely scenario; they were destroyed. Most of them by the Coalition Army (either the hard "you all die for not being trustworthy" or the soft "we're drafting/requisitioning your entire town, including your homes and yourselves"), maaaaybe one or two by Tolkeen before the war (Tolkeen was quite simply too busy fighting a defensive war to go on retribution runs) and the rest after the war by retribution squads (It's not that hard for a band of evil adventurers to depopulate a town).

Least likely scenario of all; Tolkeen MURDERED THEM ALL in blood sacrifices because Tolkeen be so evil. They then summoned up demons and fed them the corpses, because evil.

I can guess which one different people like.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Give me a quote, rather than a 6-book series, and I'll look into it.

Meanwhile, consider the fact that CW1 details a number of methods the CS uses for capturing/restraining mages, then try to explain to me how the CS never took any prisoners.
(CW1 30-36)

Yeah, sometimes they wanted to torture the mages for information first...THEN kill them.


Or experiment on them. Or a number of possibilities.
Do you know of any canon answers?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Meanwhile,
CW1 111
Smaller kingdoms, independent communities, homesteads, and nomads around Tolkeen have tried to remain outside the conflict, but quickly find themselves under Coalition scrutiny. Even communities who insist they have never harbored D-Bees or endorsed the use of magic, must make a choice. Side with and support the Coalition Army, and assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen, or be themselves destroyed.
and
As for communities where D-Bees and/or the use of magic are found, they have no hard choice to make. They are systematically destroyed, down to every last man, woman, and child; frequently the entire town is burnt to the ground or blasted into ruin.


Kinda makin' our point for us. Anything magic/alien was purged without mercy or restraint, anybody who hesitated or balked at the Coalition army's demands got blasted as well.


And any non-aliens who didn't hesitate or balk at the CS's demands?
Apparently NOT blasted.
Not by the CS, anyway.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Due to the plural Dbees, I read this to mean a minimum of 2 must be found there. If only 1 managed to lurk, it isn't enough to qualify the town for destructin.

The CS also could very well have given a warning period before doing this. "Push out all mages and dbees or be destroyed" and given them some time to prep.

In cases where they couldn't (the evil wiz is too powerful) they could evacuate the town, let the CS secure it, then return once given permission.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Give me a quote, rather than a 6-book series, and I'll look into it.

Meanwhile, consider the fact that CW1 details a number of methods the CS uses for capturing/restraining mages, then try to explain to me how the CS never took any prisoners.
(CW1 30-36)

Yeah, sometimes they wanted to torture the mages for information first...THEN kill them.


Or experiment on them. Or a number of possibilities.
Do you know of any canon answers?

Do you? You can make your assumptions, but do you have a canonical answer?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Meanwhile,
CW1 111
Smaller kingdoms, independent communities, homesteads, and nomads around Tolkeen have tried to remain outside the conflict, but quickly find themselves under Coalition scrutiny. Even communities who insist they have never harbored D-Bees or endorsed the use of magic, must make a choice. Side with and support the Coalition Army, and assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen, or be themselves destroyed.
and
As for communities where D-Bees and/or the use of magic are found, they have no hard choice to make. They are systematically destroyed, down to every last man, woman, and child; frequently the entire town is burnt to the ground or blasted into ruin.


Kinda makin' our point for us. Anything magic/alien was purged without mercy or restraint, anybody who hesitated or balked at the Coalition army's demands got blasted as well.


And any non-aliens who didn't hesitate or balk at the CS's demands?
Apparently NOT blasted.
Not by the CS, anyway.

But they could have easily been "requisitioned" down to nothing. PLENTY of towns throughout history were picked up and devoured by a rolling war machine. The way it goes down: Any property is recycled/used for the war effort, any able-bodied men are used as militia/conscripted labor, any able-bodied women are used for...other things, whatever's left is burned to deny it to the enemy or there is simply too little to be "a town" anymore.

And if a community was given that list of demands and said, "wait a minute now, that's too much" well...any kind of army that "systematically destroys, down to every last man, woman, and child, the entire town" isn't going to balk at shooting everyone.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:Due to the plural Dbees, I read this to mean a minimum of 2 must be found there. If only 1 managed to lurk, it isn't enough to qualify the town for destructin.

The CS also could very well have given a warning period before doing this. "Push out all mages and dbees or be destroyed" and given them some time to prep.

In cases where they couldn't (the evil wiz is too powerful) they could evacuate the town, let the CS secure it, then return once given permission.

I read it if any are found rhe town is destored. The plural in this case is because they are talking as a general statment about multiple communities.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Give me a quote, rather than a 6-book series, and I'll look into it.

Meanwhile, consider the fact that CW1 details a number of methods the CS uses for capturing/restraining mages, then try to explain to me how the CS never took any prisoners.
(CW1 30-36)

Yeah, sometimes they wanted to torture the mages for information first...THEN kill them.


Or experiment on them. Or a number of possibilities.
Do you know of any canon answers?

Do you? You can make your assumptions, but do you have a canonical answer?


What assumptions do you think I'm making?
(Other than assuming that all the CS gear and techniques described for restraining prisoners means that they take prisoners often enough to warrant the development of such gear)

Killer Cyborg wrote:And any non-aliens who didn't hesitate or balk at the CS's demands?
Apparently NOT blasted.
Not by the CS, anyway.

But they could have easily been "requisitioned" down to nothing.


Sure, we can make up all kinds of possibilities.
Maybe a rift took them.
Maybe an owl ate them.
Maybe they all moved to Australia.

PLENTY of towns throughout history were picked up and devoured by a rolling war machine. The way it goes down: Any property is recycled/used for the war effort, any able-bodied men are used as militia/conscripted labor, any able-bodied women are used for...other things, whatever's left is burned to deny it to the enemy or there is simply too little to be "a town" anymore.


Yup.
Got any source that the CS was doing this?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Due to the plural Dbees, I read this to mean a minimum of 2 must be found there. If only 1 managed to lurk, it isn't enough to qualify the town for destructin.

The CS also could very well have given a warning period before doing this. "Push out all mages and dbees or be destroyed" and given them some time to prep.

In cases where they couldn't (the evil wiz is too powerful) they could evacuate the town, let the CS secure it, then return once given permission.

I read it if any are found rhe town is destored. The plural in this case is because they are talking as a general statment about multiple communities.


I'm with Blue_Lion on this one.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by eliakon »

So do we know of any towns in Minnesota that had zero mages, 100% fully human populations that included no humans from Rifts/Space/other times/human subspecies, that instantly sided with the CS against Tolkeen?

I mean its fine to say that such people survived...
...but if that set is an empty set that doesn't really give you any survivors does it.

Remember they can have:
NO mages at all, not even a single mystic
There must be NO magic items, not even a single TW item, talisman, or potion
NO D-Bees at all, not even a single human that is of the wrong kind
They must not balk and provide support for the CS military and aid in the campaign. Note that this will mean that they must be providing some active assistance... not just 'rah rah go team'
If they violate any of these conditions every man, woman and child will die.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:What assumptions do you think I'm making?
(Other than assuming that all the CS gear and techniques described for restraining prisoners means that they take prisoners often enough to warrant the development of such gear)

I have no idea Mr. Sea Lion. No idea at all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yup.
Got any source that the CS was doing this?

Got any source that the CS was ever taking prisoners or making use of that gear? We don't want to go making any assumptions now...do we?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:What assumptions do you think I'm making?
(Other than assuming that all the CS gear and techniques described for restraining prisoners means that they take prisoners often enough to warrant the development of such gear)

I have no idea Mr. Sea Lion. No idea at all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yup.
Got any source that the CS was doing this?

Got any source that the CS was ever taking prisoners or making use of that gear? We don't want to go making any assumptions now...do we?


I'm good with making logical assumptions based on evidence.
So...?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:What assumptions do you think I'm making?
(Other than assuming that all the CS gear and techniques described for restraining prisoners means that they take prisoners often enough to warrant the development of such gear)

I have no idea Mr. Sea Lion. No idea at all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yup.
Got any source that the CS was doing this?

Got any source that the CS was ever taking prisoners or making use of that gear? We don't want to go making any assumptions now...do we?


I'm good with making logical assumptions based on evidence.
So...?

So I put forth a logical assumption based on evidence and...it's not enough. You seem to do this every time someone assumes the CS did something horrible that wasn't 100% explicitly stated in the books.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:What assumptions do you think I'm making?
(Other than assuming that all the CS gear and techniques described for restraining prisoners means that they take prisoners often enough to warrant the development of such gear)

I have no idea Mr. Sea Lion. No idea at all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Yup.
Got any source that the CS was doing this?

Got any source that the CS was ever taking prisoners or making use of that gear? We don't want to go making any assumptions now...do we?


I'm good with making logical assumptions based on evidence.
So...?

So I put forth a logical assumption based on evidence and...it's not enough. You seem to do this every time someone assumes the CS did something horrible that wasn't 100% explicitly stated in the books.


Maybe I misunderstood what your actual assumption/claim was.
To me, it seemed that you were claiming that the most likely explanation for what happened to CS sympathetic towns in Tolkeen's territory was the the CS destroyed all of them.
Not that maybe they were destroyed by Tolkeen, or by unaligned forces, nor even that perhaps the CS destroyed some, Tolkeen destroyed some, some were abandoned, and some were destroyed by other forces.
Which doesn't seem like a reasonable assumption to me; it seems like a series of assumptions all leading to the improbable conclusion that the CS must necessarily be responsible, even though these at least some of these towns might well have joined up.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe I misunderstood what your actual assumption/claim was.
To me, it seemed that you were claiming that the most likely explanation for what happened to CS sympathetic towns in Tolkeen's territory was the the CS destroyed all of them.
Not that maybe they were destroyed by Tolkeen, or by unaligned forces, nor even that perhaps the CS destroyed some, Tolkeen destroyed some, some were abandoned, and some were destroyed by other forces.
Which doesn't seem like a reasonable assumption to me; it seems like a series of assumptions all leading to the improbable conclusion that the CS must necessarily be responsible, even though these at least some of these towns might well have joined up.

It *is* the most reasonable assumption, both from world history and from the CS' own actions. Independent villages, even CS sympathizing ones, are more likely to be devoured or destroyed than "brought into the protection of the great and benevolent coalition." Your own examples make the point that anything short of picking up arms and joining the war effort would result in destruction.

Tolkeen was too busy defending to go on retribution strikes and such attacks would be heavily mentioned in CS propaganda. But you have your assumptions you're happy to make, and other assumptions you'll never even consider.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Maybe I misunderstood what your actual assumption/claim was.
To me, it seemed that you were claiming that the most likely explanation for what happened to CS sympathetic towns in Tolkeen's territory was the the CS destroyed all of them.
Not that maybe they were destroyed by Tolkeen, or by unaligned forces, nor even that perhaps the CS destroyed some, Tolkeen destroyed some, some were abandoned, and some were destroyed by other forces.
Which doesn't seem like a reasonable assumption to me; it seems like a series of assumptions all leading to the improbable conclusion that the CS must necessarily be responsible, even though these at least some of these towns might well have joined up.

It *is* the most reasonable assumption, both from world history and from the CS' own actions.


Hm.
Not so much.

Independent villages, even CS sympathizing ones, are more likely to be devoured or destroyed than "brought into the protection of the great and benevolent coalition."


Cite your historical examples from both the real world and Rifts history where every community that was sympathetic to the invaders was destroyed by the invaders.

Your own examples make the point that anything short of picking up arms and joining the war effort would result in destruction.


Incorrect.
The text states:
Side with and support the Coalition Army, and assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen, or be themselves destroyed.

NOTHING about picking up arms being required, although I don't suppose the CS would exactly mind.
All that was required to survive was to side with the CS, to support the CS, and to assist in the campaign.

Tolkeen was too busy defending to go on retribution strikes and such attacks


Source?

would be heavily mentioned in CS propaganda.


Huh?

But you have your assumptions you're happy to make,


Okay.
What assumptions do you assume those are...?

and other assumptions you'll never even consider.


Do not confuse rejecting an assumption with never considering the assumption.
Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

I like how you contradict yourself in the same sentence.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:I like how you contradict yourself in the same sentence.


Whatever, man.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by eliakon »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Your own examples make the point that anything short of picking up arms and joining the war effort would result in destruction.


Incorrect.
The text states:
Side with and support the Coalition Army, and assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen, or be themselves destroyed.

NOTHING about picking up arms being required, although I don't suppose the CS would exactly mind.
All that was required to survive was to side with the CS, to support the CS, and to assist in the campaign.

Okay, I'll bite.
What, exactly, do you consider to be "assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen" to be then?
If your saying that they do not have to pick up arms to attack their kingdom what DO they have to do to be 'assisting in the campaign'?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Your own examples make the point that anything short of picking up arms and joining the war effort would result in destruction.


Incorrect.
The text states:
Side with and support the Coalition Army, and assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen, or be themselves destroyed.

NOTHING about picking up arms being required, although I don't suppose the CS would exactly mind.
All that was required to survive was to side with the CS, to support the CS, and to assist in the campaign.

Okay, I'll bite.
What, exactly, do you consider to be "assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen" to be then?
If your saying that they do not have to pick up arms to attack their kingdom what DO they have to do to be 'assisting in the campaign'?


Provide food, shelter, intelligence, and other forms of aid to the CS army.
You know... "assistance" to the troops involved in the campaign...?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Axelmania »

boring7 wrote:And if a community was given that list of demands and said, "wait a minute now, that's too much" well...any kind of army that "systematically destroys, down to every last man, woman, and child, the entire town" isn't going to balk at shooting everyone.

I don't agree. The CS being ruthless for towns who harbor magic or more than 1 D-Bee doesn't mean they will be ruthless toward towns who negotiate on demands.

If for example, a Diabolic Corporal demanded "and I get to sleep with all the farmer's daughters" and a complaint was voiced, it doesn't mean the Corporal will simply shoot the complainer, because his Aberrant Sergeant may object to that exploitation of humanity ("the D-bees do enough of that! We're the heroes!")

Blue_Lion wrote:I read it if any are found rhe town is destored. The plural in this case is because they are talking as a general statment about multiple communities.

I understand that interpretation too, but I will give the CS the benefit of the doubt and a 1-strike policy for d-Bees until told explicitly of a case where just 1 D-bee doomed a town.

eliakon wrote:do we know of any towns in Minnesota that had
zero mages,
100% fully human populations that included no humans from Rifts/Space/other times/human subspecies,
that instantly sided with the CS against Tolkeen?

Sedition 115 Hogswaller is a good bed. It only had humans and human mutants (psychics: Stalkers/Bursters/Zappers only) no D-Bees were listed. Most of the named towns in the OP aren't detailed and could be similar to this example.

Transients (not part of the official population) sometimes included D-Bees but I don't believe the CS would target on the basis of transients.

A reasonable expectation is the CS will send out warnings to the general area (without giving away specific times) of "any D-Bees in town, we raze the place" and the transients would be rushed out.

It doesn't explicitly mention "these humans aren't from space, other times or other dimensions" but this is something I think we can take for granted. If the CS has no clear way of knowing subtle details like that, it won't be a factor.

Human occupations (obviously exlcuding the mutants who have psychic RCCs) are as follows:
    25% pig farmer
    20% trapper-woodsmen
    20% crop farmers
    35% traders and vagabonds

Mages aren't listed... I suppose it's possible that there is a Ley Line Walker who works as a pig farmer, but it seems like a bit of a stretch.

Miller's farm could possibly be an issue because it has 30 D-Bee slaves. Given that the CS keeps D-Bee slaves itself, I can't really see this being grounds for destroying it. As long as they are slaves and not citizens I can see that being tolerated. Since they were not listed in the hard population or the transient population, they're basically just property.

eliakon wrote:If they violate any of these conditions every man, woman and child will die.

If this is the case, how did the CS ever gain any D-Bee prisoners? Clearly "will die" is not a guarantee.

Sedition 111 when you quote the right column's 3rd paragraph "As for communities where" we must observe this is a continuation of the 2nd paragraph's "With us or against us?" discussion.

It is only discussing:
    Smaller kingdoms, independent communities, homesteads and nomads around Tolkeen

The question is... just how close to the City of Tolkeen must you be before you're considered "around" it?

The CS isn't necessarily treating every town in Minnesota this way, it may just be ones in the area surrounding the twin cities of Tolkeen and Freehold (Minneapolis and St Paul).

This part of course might lead people to think otherwise:
    in and around the old American State of Minnesota, one is either a friend of the Coalition or foe — there is no in between.

But I think that is discussing a different general idea, while the 'everyone dies if there's a d-bee' approach is very localized to Tolkeen.

If this really did apply to everything "around" Minnesota (again, how close is "around" something?) then we must examine Sedition 116's Northfields.

Magic is being used in this town. Shifters have invaded it.

Does that really mean the CS is going to murder all the children who were abandoned by their parents due to the Shifter's magic?

118 shows this isn't a guarantee:
    No good Coalition Soldier will want to harm innocent CS citizens being manipulated by demonic forces and dark magic
    ..
    the trick for would-be liberators is to track down and incapacitate or slay the six Shifters
This is directly insinuating that if you can disable the shifters, you can save the CS citizens and prevent them from being harmed.

So if execution were a guarantee, it would be no trick at all.

Let's look at 111 says:
    They are systematically destroyed, down to every last man, woman and child
and what it doesn't say
    They are always systematically destroyed, down to every last man, woman and child

So in all accuracy, all we know is that systematic destruction SOMETIMES happens, not that it ALWAYS happens.


eliakon wrote:What, exactly, do you consider to be "assist in the campaign to destroy Tolkeen" to be then?
If your saying that they do not have to pick up arms to attack their kingdom what DO they have to do to be 'assisting in the campaign'?

To pre-empt KC... provide intelligence, shelter, food, repairs, transport, storage, painting, entertainment... there's a lot of ways to help.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:
boring7 wrote:And if a community was given that list of demands and said, "wait a minute now, that's too much" well...any kind of army that "systematically destroys, down to every last man, woman, and child, the entire town" isn't going to balk at shooting everyone.

I don't agree. The CS being ruthless for towns who harbor magic or more than 1 D-Bee doesn't mean they will be ruthless toward towns who negotiate on demands.

If for example, a Diabolic Corporal demanded "and I get to sleep with all the farmer's daughters" and a complaint was voiced, it doesn't mean the Corporal will simply shoot the complainer, because his Aberrant Sergeant may object to that exploitation of humanity ("the D-bees do enough of that! We're the heroes!")

That is not what was being said though. Its a nice strawman though.

Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:I read it if any are found rhe town is destored. The plural in this case is because they are talking as a general statment about multiple communities.

I understand that interpretation too, but I will give the CS the benefit of the doubt and a 1-strike policy for d-Bees until told explicitly of a case where just 1 D-bee doomed a town.

That is your prerogative I guess.

Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:do we know of any towns in Minnesota that had
zero mages,
100% fully human populations that included no humans from Rifts/Space/other times/human subspecies,
that instantly sided with the CS against Tolkeen?

Sedition 115 Hogswaller is a good bed. It only had humans and human mutants (psychics: Stalkers/Bursters/Zappers only) no D-Bees were listed. Most of the named towns in the OP aren't detailed and could be similar to this example.

And again are we 100% positive that in one of the centers of TW of North America that there was not a single TW device in the entire town?

Axelmania wrote:Transients (not part of the official population) sometimes included D-Bees but I don't believe the CS would target on the basis of transients.

That is not what the book says, but you can do that in your own game.
The book says "If it is found to be harboring D-Bees"
Not "if there are D-bees as regular residents"

Axelmania wrote:A reasonable expectation is the CS will send out warnings to the general area (without giving away specific times) of "any D-Bees in town, we raze the place" and the transients would be rushed out.

That is not what the books say though. Its a nice fluffy way to make the CS look like some sort of good guys I guess.
But its not what the books actually say.

Axelmania wrote:It doesn't explicitly mention "these humans aren't from space, other times or other dimensions" but this is something I think we can take for granted. If the CS has no clear way of knowing subtle details like that, it won't be a factor.

Those people have been explicitly described as D-Bees according to the CS before in other books.
That means that yes, the CS considers them D-Bees.


Axelmania wrote:Human occupations (obviously exlcuding the mutants who have psychic RCCs) are as follows:
    25% pig farmer
    20% trapper-woodsmen
    20% crop farmers
    35% traders and vagabonds


Mages aren't listed... I suppose it's possible that there is a Ley Line Walker who works as a pig farmer, but it seems like a bit of a stretch.

Miller's farm could possibly be an issue because it has 30 D-Bee slaves. Given that the CS keeps D-Bee slaves itself, I can't really see this being grounds for destroying it. As long as they are slaves and not citizens I can see that being tolerated. Since they were not listed in the hard population or the transient population, they're basically just property.

Nope, that's harboring D-Bees.
Their all dead. next?


Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:If they violate any of these conditions every man, woman and child will die.

If this is the case, how did the CS ever gain any D-Bee prisoners? Clearly "will die" is not a guarantee.

Ummm because the book says they will?
I mean I know people want to pretend that the CS is not as bad as the books say they are and all...
But when the book says "They are systematically destroyed down to every last man woman and child" it sort of means that yes, every man woman and child dies.


Axelmania wrote:Sedition 111 when you quote the right column's 3rd paragraph "As for communities where" we must observe this is a continuation of the 2nd paragraph's "With us or against us?" discussion.

It is only discussing:
    Smaller kingdoms, independent communities, homesteads and nomads around Tolkeen

The question is... just how close to the City of Tolkeen must you be before you're considered "around" it?

The CS isn't necessarily treating every town in Minnesota this way, it may just be ones in the area surrounding the twin cities of Tolkeen and Freehold (Minneapolis and St Paul).

This part of course might lead people to think otherwise:
    in and around the old American State of Minnesota, one is either a friend of the Coalition or foe — there is no in between.

But I think that is discussing a different general idea, while the 'everyone dies if there's a d-bee' approach is very localized to Tolkeen.

If this really did apply to everything "around" Minnesota (again, how close is "around" something?) then we must examine Sedition 116's Northfields.

Magic is being used in this town. Shifters have invaded it.

Does that really mean the CS is going to murder all the children who were abandoned by their parents due to the Shifter's magic?

118 shows this isn't a guarantee:
    No good Coalition Soldier will want to harm innocent CS citizens being manipulated by demonic forces and dark magic
    ..
    the trick for would-be liberators is to track down and incapacitate or slay the six Shifters
This is directly insinuating that if you can disable the shifters, you can save the CS citizens and prevent them from being harmed.

So if execution were a guarantee, it would be no trick at all.

Let's look at 111 says:
    They are systematically destroyed, down to every last man, woman and child
and what it doesn't say
    They are always systematically destroyed, down to every last man, woman and child

So in all accuracy, all we know is that systematic destruction SOMETIMES happens, not that it ALWAYS happens.

Nice semantic tricks
Its a great attempt to pretend that the CS is not actually doing what the book is clearly stating they are doing.
Your attempt to pretend that some how "We have been invaded by enemy agents against our will" is the same as "We use this" is pretty hilarious

But the book is pretty clear.
All of Minnesota is a "you are with us or you die." zone, and if you have any D-bees, any magic or do not actively assist the CS then the entire community is put to the sword.
There is no 'sometimes' there is no 'maybe' there is no 'if your too close to Tolkeen'
It is all communities, and all that fail die.
The entire former State of Minnesota is one big killing field.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

And wasn't there mention, specifically, of the "not-evil" CS troopers going all rapey on what they thought were human women, only to face surprise dragon? In fact I think that was one of the excuses for "why the CS brutality is okay" examples upthread...

Also "food, shelter, intelligence" includes quartering troops in your home, working like a slave, watching your food stockpiles for the winter being taken away and your wives and daughters being 'used' in other ways. But hey, that isn't explicitly stated, so that's just an "assumption." Any refusal to comply means death, and that's not an assumption.

But hey, since we aren't allowed to assume the CS did what the books basically say they do all the time, here's another ridiculous theory you can throw into your "Saviors Of Humanity" campaign: the towns dried up and disappeared because everyone joined the coalition war machine. Whether signing on as soldiers or becoming willing camp followers so many people picked up and left that there weren't enough people for it to be a community anymore.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Axelmania »

Not a semantic trick. Unless it says something always happens, being told it happens only let's us know that it occurs at an unknown frequency.

As for Palladium/Nightbane/Skraypers/ThreeGalaxies/etc. Humans... The CS considering them dbees doesn't mean they will KNOW they are. They need a way to find out.

The CS doesn't necessarily have a master psi ready to Mind Bond/Wipe every single occupant of every single village they pass through to discover this stuff. If they look human and don't register as supernatural, that's usually going to be enough.

Enslaving Dbees is not harboring them. If that were true then the CS harbors Dbees. Think civil war and Underground Railroad or ww2 Anne Frank in attic v conc camps.

Harboring means hiding, protecting. Not that you can't manage to dig out a pesky Boogyman from your sewers or you have orcs chained up to your ploughs.

It is highly feasible if the CS did not want ploughing orcs they would send out a "free or kill your plowing orcs" warning to all communities, giving them time to adapt.

The stats we are given for the towns aren't necessarily their stats the day the CS bulk sets foot there. They are more likely intended as stats at the start (when CS are only at borders) when the PCs can arrive to interact. Just before the Dbees get kicked out, because once word spread that a town was razed for a Dbee (even if this wasn't standard practice) many would be booting them out to avoid CS wrath.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:And wasn't there mention, specifically, of the "not-evil" CS troopers going all rapey on what they thought were human women, only to face surprise dragon? In fact I think that was one of the excuses for "why the CS brutality is okay" examples upthread...


:?

Also "food, shelter, intelligence" includes quartering troops in your home, working like a slave, watching your food stockpiles for the winter being taken away and your wives and daughters being 'used' in other ways. But hey, that isn't explicitly stated, so that's just an "assumption." Any refusal to comply means death, and that's not an assumption.


Yeah, it is.
What you're describing is ONE way that assisting an army can work, but it's hardly the ONLY way that it can work.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:Not a semantic trick. Unless it says something always happens, being told it happens only let's us know that it occurs at an unknown frequency.

Yes, yes it is.
There is no need for "always" in the statement because grammatically the statement is one that is not qualified.

Axelmania wrote:As for Palladium/Nightbane/Skraypers/ThreeGalaxies/etc. Humans... The CS considering them dbees doesn't mean they will KNOW they are. They need a way to find out.

The CS doesn't necessarily have a master psi ready to Mind Bond/Wipe every single occupant of every single village they pass through to discover this stuff. If they look human and don't register as supernatural, that's usually going to be enough.

It may be enough. it may not be enough.
Mind Bond isn't needed though, just some telepathy while questioning people will determine their origins. And considering the CS level of paranoia the idea that the CS is not going to be looking for D-Bee infiltrators among the humans is pretty laughable. Or you know... anyone in town having known the truth and not keeping it an utter secret. And since it wasn't a matter of life and death before it may not have been kept a total utter secret.
Though I suppose that those humans who managed to keep the fact that they are totally lacking in certain basic knowledge and have the wrong base cultural referents a total utter secret from their friends, family and neighbors for the years and years it would take to learn enough to pass as a Rifts Native might be able to pull it off.



Axelmania wrote:Enslaving Dbees is not harboring them. If that were true then the CS harbors Dbees. Think civil war and Underground Railroad or ww2 Anne Frank in attic v conc camps.

That's a nice attempt there...
...but no.
Especially since the CS is fond of the double standard.
The CS allows itself many things that it does not allow other people. So yes, harboring D-bees is fine for it, but not other people.
After all during the war the CS does Harbor D-Bees. Thousands of them. Which sort of means that slave holding is not proof of anything.


Axelmania wrote:Harboring means hiding, protecting. Not that you can't manage to dig out a pesky Boogyman from your sewers or you have orcs chained up to your ploughs.

That is YOUR definition maybe.

Axelmania wrote:It is highly feasible if the CS did not want ploughing orcs they would send out a "free or kill your plowing orcs" warning to all communities, giving them time to adapt.

Why do you keep insisting that the CS is this kindly group that gives people multiple chances and warnings?
The books do not say that they are giving any warnings. In fact the books are pretty clear that the opposite is true. That you can either give up everything before the CS gets there... or die to the last.

Axelmania wrote:The stats we are given for the towns aren't necessarily their stats the day the CS bulk sets foot there. They are more likely intended as stats at the start (when CS are only at borders) when the PCs can arrive to interact. Just before the Dbees get kicked out, because once word spread that a town was razed for a Dbee (even if this wasn't standard practice) many would be booting them out to avoid CS wrath.

That is a nice imaginary view sure.
One can also imagine that a horde of unicorns came and carried everyone away in a puff of rainbows.
The answer to what happened to them is "The CS killed them" not "They kicked out all the D-Bees, got rid of all the magic, and joined the CS, and then the evil wizards from Tolkeen came in and slaughtered them all to prove that Tolkeen is just as bad as the CS"
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
boring7 wrote:And wasn't there mention, specifically, of the "not-evil" CS troopers going all rapey on what they thought were human women, only to face surprise dragon? In fact I think that was one of the excuses for "why the CS brutality is okay" examples upthread...


:?

Also "food, shelter, intelligence" includes quartering troops in your home, working like a slave, watching your food stockpiles for the winter being taken away and your wives and daughters being 'used' in other ways. But hey, that isn't explicitly stated, so that's just an "assumption." Any refusal to comply means death, and that's not an assumption.


Yeah, it is.
What you're describing is ONE way that assisting an army can work, but it's hardly the ONLY way that it can work.

You really use that emoticon a lot, usually before you say something incredibly illogical and highly insulting.

It's pretty clearly the way the CS army works, bro.
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:It's pretty clearly the way the CS army works, bro.


Source?
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by boring7 »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
boring7 wrote:It's pretty clearly the way the CS army works, bro.


Source?

Literally every book where the CS army does things. It's what we call "a logical assumption based on evidence."
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Re: What happened to the CS sympathizer towns in Minnesota?

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

boring7 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
boring7 wrote:It's pretty clearly the way the CS army works, bro.


Source?

Literally every book where the CS army does things. It's what we call "a logical assumption based on evidence."


My counter, then, is likewise literally every book where the CS does things.
It's SO easy to argue when there's zero standards for support.
;)
Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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