I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to cope

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Greepnak
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I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to cope

Unread post by Greepnak »

Hi. So my game has ninjas & superspies h2h styles in the Rifts earth setting, because I and my players found "basic, expert, martial arts, commando, assassin" to be dry bread.

Some styles from N&SS have automatic critical strike from behind.

This bleeds into "unable to parry/dodge an attack from behind"

I dislike things being so good that they're the go-to all the time. Thoughts?
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Greepnak wrote:Hi. So my game has ninjas & superspies h2h styles in the Rifts earth setting, because I and my players found "basic, expert, martial arts, commando, assassin" to be dry bread.

Some styles from N&SS have automatic critical strike from behind.

This bleeds into "unable to parry/dodge an attack from behind"

I dislike things being so good that they're the go-to all the time. Thoughts?


a) Don't let people get behind you.
b) Zanshin, juicers, and other stuff will negate a lot of the advantage.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Radar also lets you know people are behind you. And, quite honestly, with a few exceptions, at least in melee unless you're going monty-haul, getting a crit on a Vibro-sword or other h2h attack is...

not going to be tall that devastating.

Theres a (sensitive?) psi power that lets you parry/dodge all attacks, even from s urprise/behind, as well, that any minor psychic can have (i think its intuitive combat).

There's also a few low level spells that let you do the same.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by dreicunan »

It would only be go to if you can actually get behind someone to attack them. Actually, Basic and Expert offer the same thing at high levels (expert gives triple damage on the crit). As Colonel_Tetsuya pointed out, in MD combat a melee critical would normally not be an instant take-down anyways (especially if you are using the GI Joe rule for armor). I wouldn't worry about this; if they are always maneuvering to hit someone from behind and managing to do so, that is just smart play.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Attack from behind…

This type of attack has to be set up by…
Sneaking up behind the target. Which means a failed prowl roll on the attacker's side or a successful perception roll by the target will spoil the attack.
or
Forcing the target to spin as to open up their defense for the blindside attack.
or
Working with other chars to distract the target to open up their defense to the blindside attack.

As the other have pointed out, that almost any type of circular senses will preclude the ability of chars to use the 'from behind' mod on that char.
I have a character that after changing to a super-powered form has multiple sets of eyes that let the char see all around it. The GM has yet to have a opponent try to "sneak up behind" the char. But then again the GM prefers the game to be a soap opera type RP game. So there is very little combat in it.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by guardiandashi »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Attack from behind…

This type of attack has to be set up by…
Sneaking up behind the target. Which means a failed prowl roll on the attacker's side or a successful perception roll by the target will spoil the attack.
or
Forcing the target to spin as to open up their defense for the blindside attack.
or
Working with other chars to distract the target to open up their defense to the blindside attack.

As the other have pointed out, that almost any type of circular senses will preclude the ability of chars to use the 'from behind' mod on that char.
I have a character that after changing to a super-powered form has multiple sets of eyes that let the char see all around it. The GM has yet to have a opponent try to "sneak up behind" the char. But then again the GM prefers the game to be a soap opera type RP game. So there is very little combat in it.
similar, I had a character that was essentially a shemarrian warrior, that started out with hand to hand martial arts, and later learned Ninjitsu, and at another point the same character learned the fighting styles used by jedi. and the gm almost never tried to attack the char from behind (especially at close range) because it would pretty much automatically fail.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by taalismn »

Wide angle and extra cyberoptics on your opponent.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by eliakon »

One other thing that will REALLY curtail the abuse of this is the 'Gander rule'
Aka what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Just explain to the Players that if they wish to use this as one of their 'go to' tactics, that that is fine. But that the NPCs of the world will similarly be using the same tactics as well.
It is amazing how much the threat of Mutually Assured Destruction can prevent the wide spread use of nuclear weapons...
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by taalismn »

eliakon wrote:One other thing that will REALLY curtail the abuse of this is the 'Gander rule'
Aka what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Just explain to the Players that if they wish to use this as one of their 'go to' tactics, that that is fine. But that the NPCs of the world will similarly be using the same tactics as well.
It is amazing how much the threat of Mutually Assured Destruction can prevent the wide spread use of nuclear weapons...


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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by slade the sniper »

taalismn wrote:"You wanna be ninjas? Fine, but ninjas attract ninjas. It's the Law of Ninja Attraction. Either some bigger, nastier, more numerous group of ninjas is going to come to put you in your place, or some badass super-ninja is going to show up to call you out. Which of you can sleep with one eye open?"


Where is that from? I like that! One of my RIFTS NPCs might use that soon.

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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by taalismn »

slade the sniper wrote:
taalismn wrote:"You wanna be ninjas? Fine, but ninjas attract ninjas. It's the Law of Ninja Attraction. Either some bigger, nastier, more numerous group of ninjas is going to come to put you in your place, or some badass super-ninja is going to show up to call you out. Which of you can sleep with one eye open?"


Where is that from? I like that! One of my RIFTS NPCs might use that soon.

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Me, after watching too much Ninja Scroll

Learned a lot about ninjas that way. :P
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Mack »

This is Rifts.

You got to watch out for Flooper Ninjas.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Jefffar »

You mean none of them.figured out Leopard Style has a deatjow at first level?
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Radar also lets you know people are behind you. And, quite honestly, with a few exceptions, at least in melee unless you're going monty-haul, getting a crit on a Vibro-sword or other h2h attack is...

not going to be tall that devastating.

Theres a (sensitive?) psi power that lets you parry/dodge all attacks, even from s urprise/behind, as well, that any minor psychic can have (i think its intuitive combat).

There's also a few low level spells that let you do the same.

Isn't all radar in rifts primarily air detection?
The CS has a improved radar that has penalties to detect ground vehicles on some of their bots.

Other martial artist would be out there and would have similar powers or anti sneak attack.

You could also house rule that if they have auto dodge it does not work or if they are aware. You can also rule it does not work against non organic targets.
It also does no good against opponents that have no backs or are immune to physical attacks.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

To be clear:

Some of those martial arts it is listed (fairly clearly, if IIRC) as automatic critical strike from behind OR surprise.

You dont have to sneak up on them, just be behind them.

Radar on small units would work just fine in a melee, as long as the pulse emitter isnt higher than the person(s); there are examples of Borgs having on-board radar that lets them shoot behind them without looking; (first shows up on Wolfen Quatoria in Phase World, but later makes an appearance in the Bionics Sourcebook).

That wouldn't necessarily protect you from the auto crit from behind, but it would let you know he was there so you could turn and face him.

The other abilities i listed (some of the spells, id have to look up the names, Psionic's Intuitive Combat, etc) allow you to parry/dodge attacks even IF you are surprised or from behind, so those would cover you just fine... and Juicers and Crazies can auto-dodge attacks from behind/surprise, as well.

And, like i said... unless you're going high-end loot/monty haul, most melee weapons in Rifts simply aren't THAT dangerous. About the best you get at "easily available" is weapons in the 3D6-4D6MD range, with 1D4x10 (a TW Lightblade) at the outside. Powerful, but hardly broken, and if theyre maneuvering to get behind guys, theyre spending attacks not attacking. Itll even out.

Now, if you start handing out high end Rune Weapons or the (technically) TW Swords from Federation of Magic, that all hit like trucks, things could start getting dicey.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Greepnak »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:To be clear:

Some of those martial arts it is listed (fairly clearly, if IIRC) as automatic critical strike from behind OR surprise.

You dont have to sneak up on them, just be behind them.

Radar on small units would work just fine in a melee, as long as the pulse emitter isnt higher than the person(s); there are examples of Borgs having on-board radar that lets them shoot behind them without looking; (first shows up on Wolfen Quatoria in Phase World, but later makes an appearance in the Bionics Sourcebook).

That wouldn't necessarily protect you from the auto crit from behind, but it would let you know he was there so you could turn and face him.

The other abilities i listed (some of the spells, id have to look up the names, Psionic's Intuitive Combat, etc) allow you to parry/dodge attacks even IF you are surprised or from behind, so those would cover you just fine... and Juicers and Crazies can auto-dodge attacks from behind/surprise, as well.

And, like i said... unless you're going high-end loot/monty haul, most melee weapons in Rifts simply aren't THAT dangerous. About the best you get at "easily available" is weapons in the 3D6-4D6MD range, with 1D4x10 (a TW Lightblade) at the outside. Powerful, but hardly broken, and if theyre maneuvering to get behind guys, theyre spending attacks not attacking. Itll even out.

Now, if you start handing out high end Rune Weapons or the (technically) TW Swords from Federation of Magic, that all hit like trucks, things could start getting dicey.


What about someone hurling an Anihilate projectile from behind?
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Greepnak wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:To be clear:

Some of those martial arts it is listed (fairly clearly, if IIRC) as automatic critical strike from behind OR surprise.

You dont have to sneak up on them, just be behind them.

Radar on small units would work just fine in a melee, as long as the pulse emitter isnt higher than the person(s); there are examples of Borgs having on-board radar that lets them shoot behind them without looking; (first shows up on Wolfen Quatoria in Phase World, but later makes an appearance in the Bionics Sourcebook).

That wouldn't necessarily protect you from the auto crit from behind, but it would let you know he was there so you could turn and face him.

The other abilities i listed (some of the spells, id have to look up the names, Psionic's Intuitive Combat, etc) allow you to parry/dodge attacks even IF you are surprised or from behind, so those would cover you just fine... and Juicers and Crazies can auto-dodge attacks from behind/surprise, as well.

And, like i said... unless you're going high-end loot/monty haul, most melee weapons in Rifts simply aren't THAT dangerous. About the best you get at "easily available" is weapons in the 3D6-4D6MD range, with 1D4x10 (a TW Lightblade) at the outside. Powerful, but hardly broken, and if theyre maneuvering to get behind guys, theyre spending attacks not attacking. Itll even out.

Now, if you start handing out high end Rune Weapons or the (technically) TW Swords from Federation of Magic, that all hit like trucks, things could start getting dicey.


What about someone hurling an Anihilate projectile from behind?


Unless they somehow have a Weapon Kata for Annihilate, it wont do them any good.

N&SS Martial Arts are weird. They only work with themselves. (Or, in the case of a few of them you can only combine if you are a Dedicated martial artist, and which specifically say they work together) You cant, for instance, use any of Zanji Shinjinken-Ryu's attacks per round, bonuses, etc, with Longsword. Only with the weapon Kata's included with Zanji.

People often overlook/forget/dont even realize how limited the N&SS Martial Arts are. Hell, i played with them in other Palladium games (Robotech particularly, where my forum name comes from - a VT Pilot with Zanji) until someone on these forums pointed that out.. probably for 10+ years, without realizing it.

Edit:

I'd also wonder how your PCs got their hands on Annihilate so early/easily, and how they can manage to cast it more than once every now and then, given that it costs 600 PPE and even a 15th level LLW isnt going to have that kind of PPE without lots of Talismans or other gear. A few other casters could get it easier (Temporal Wiz, Shifter) but still.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by dreicunan »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Greepnak wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:To be clear:

Some of those martial arts it is listed (fairly clearly, if IIRC) as automatic critical strike from behind OR surprise.

You dont have to sneak up on them, just be behind them.

Radar on small units would work just fine in a melee, as long as the pulse emitter isnt higher than the person(s); there are examples of Borgs having on-board radar that lets them shoot behind them without looking; (first shows up on Wolfen Quatoria in Phase World, but later makes an appearance in the Bionics Sourcebook).

That wouldn't necessarily protect you from the auto crit from behind, but it would let you know he was there so you could turn and face him.

The other abilities i listed (some of the spells, id have to look up the names, Psionic's Intuitive Combat, etc) allow you to parry/dodge attacks even IF you are surprised or from behind, so those would cover you just fine... and Juicers and Crazies can auto-dodge attacks from behind/surprise, as well.

And, like i said... unless you're going high-end loot/monty haul, most melee weapons in Rifts simply aren't THAT dangerous. About the best you get at "easily available" is weapons in the 3D6-4D6MD range, with 1D4x10 (a TW Lightblade) at the outside. Powerful, but hardly broken, and if theyre maneuvering to get behind guys, theyre spending attacks not attacking. Itll even out.

Now, if you start handing out high end Rune Weapons or the (technically) TW Swords from Federation of Magic, that all hit like trucks, things could start getting dicey.


What about someone hurling an Anihilate projectile from behind?


Unless they somehow have a Weapon Kata for Annihilate, it wont do them any good.

N&SS Martial Arts are weird. They only work with themselves. (Or, in the case of a few of them you can only combine if you are a Dedicated martial artist, and which specifically say they work together) You cant, for instance, use any of Zanji Shinjinken-Ryu's attacks per round, bonuses, etc, with Longsword. Only with the weapon Kata's included with Zanji.

People often overlook/forget/dont even realize how limited the N&SS Martial Arts are. Hell, i played with them in other Palladium games (Robotech particularly, where my forum name comes from - a VT Pilot with Zanji) until someone on these forums pointed that out.. probably for 10+ years, without realizing it.

Edit:

I'd also wonder how your PCs got their hands on Annihilate so early/easily, and how they can manage to cast it more than once every now and then, given that it costs 600 PPE and even a 15th level LLW isnt going to have that kind of PPE without lots of Talismans or other gear. A few other casters could get it easier (Temporal Wiz, Shifter) but still.

I'd assumed he was talking about some kind of thrown weapon (or perhaps arrows or sling bullets) that cast annihilate upon impact, but I have the same basic question that Colonel_Tetsuya has: How is that a frequent issue? Also, I've never applied something like "crit from behind" to ranged combat, let alone to magic, so I'm not sure that would even be an issue.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Greepnak »

I'd also wonder how your PCs got their hands on Annihilate so early/easily, and how they can manage to cast it more than once every now and then, given that it costs 600 PPE and even a 15th level LLW isnt going to have that kind of PPE without lots of Talismans or other gear. A few other casters could get it easier (Temporal Wiz, Shifter) but still.


Temporal wizard. Everyone in the party has about 200 megadamage per action general damage potential (cosmo knights etc) so its not like one or two anihilates per day for the wizard is over the top, but it's annoying when combined with teleport and crit from behind. I care less about the damage and more about how to provide challenging content to such a high strength team.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by kaid »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:To be clear:

Some of those martial arts it is listed (fairly clearly, if IIRC) as automatic critical strike from behind OR surprise.

You dont have to sneak up on them, just be behind them.

Radar on small units would work just fine in a melee, as long as the pulse emitter isnt higher than the person(s); there are examples of Borgs having on-board radar that lets them shoot behind them without looking; (first shows up on Wolfen Quatoria in Phase World, but later makes an appearance in the Bionics Sourcebook).

That wouldn't necessarily protect you from the auto crit from behind, but it would let you know he was there so you could turn and face him.

The other abilities i listed (some of the spells, id have to look up the names, Psionic's Intuitive Combat, etc) allow you to parry/dodge attacks even IF you are surprised or from behind, so those would cover you just fine... and Juicers and Crazies can auto-dodge attacks from behind/surprise, as well.

And, like i said... unless you're going high-end loot/monty haul, most melee weapons in Rifts simply aren't THAT dangerous. About the best you get at "easily available" is weapons in the 3D6-4D6MD range, with 1D4x10 (a TW Lightblade) at the outside. Powerful, but hardly broken, and if theyre maneuvering to get behind guys, theyre spending attacks not attacking. Itll even out.

Now, if you start handing out high end Rune Weapons or the (technically) TW Swords from Federation of Magic, that all hit like trucks, things could start getting dicey.




I would concur unless high end magical melee weapons start getting added any damage they are doing with tech melee weapons even if they can setup their best case scenario is just not going to be that deadly vs many targets.

Also if they are in hand to hand target just about any supernatural creature or creature of magic is going to be both physically much stronger and much more damaging in melee than they are even with their ninja skills. Generally unless you are heavily armed with magic weapons or are yourself supernatural or have some form of personal enhancement going melee is the last thing you want to do vs a wide range of opponents.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by kaid »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Greepnak wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:To be clear:

Some of those martial arts it is listed (fairly clearly, if IIRC) as automatic critical strike from behind OR surprise.

You dont have to sneak up on them, just be behind them.

Radar on small units would work just fine in a melee, as long as the pulse emitter isnt higher than the person(s); there are examples of Borgs having on-board radar that lets them shoot behind them without looking; (first shows up on Wolfen Quatoria in Phase World, but later makes an appearance in the Bionics Sourcebook).

That wouldn't necessarily protect you from the auto crit from behind, but it would let you know he was there so you could turn and face him.

The other abilities i listed (some of the spells, id have to look up the names, Psionic's Intuitive Combat, etc) allow you to parry/dodge attacks even IF you are surprised or from behind, so those would cover you just fine... and Juicers and Crazies can auto-dodge attacks from behind/surprise, as well.

And, like i said... unless you're going high-end loot/monty haul, most melee weapons in Rifts simply aren't THAT dangerous. About the best you get at "easily available" is weapons in the 3D6-4D6MD range, with 1D4x10 (a TW Lightblade) at the outside. Powerful, but hardly broken, and if theyre maneuvering to get behind guys, theyre spending attacks not attacking. Itll even out.

Now, if you start handing out high end Rune Weapons or the (technically) TW Swords from Federation of Magic, that all hit like trucks, things could start getting dicey.


What about someone hurling an Anihilate projectile from behind?


Unless they somehow have a Weapon Kata for Annihilate, it wont do them any good.

N&SS Martial Arts are weird. They only work with themselves. (Or, in the case of a few of them you can only combine if you are a Dedicated martial artist, and which specifically say they work together) You cant, for instance, use any of Zanji Shinjinken-Ryu's attacks per round, bonuses, etc, with Longsword. Only with the weapon Kata's included with Zanji.

People often overlook/forget/dont even realize how limited the N&SS Martial Arts are. Hell, i played with them in other Palladium games (Robotech particularly, where my forum name comes from - a VT Pilot with Zanji) until someone on these forums pointed that out.. probably for 10+ years, without realizing it.

Edit:

I'd also wonder how your PCs got their hands on Annihilate so early/easily, and how they can manage to cast it more than once every now and then, given that it costs 600 PPE and even a 15th level LLW isnt going to have that kind of PPE without lots of Talismans or other gear. A few other casters could get it easier (Temporal Wiz, Shifter) but still.



Honestly its not just ninja and super spies stuff being picky a good chunk of the hand to hand special stuff only works on hand to hand abilities. Most do not work on ranged weapons/projectiles at all unless specifically stated to do so. That is one thing that makes HtH assassin so nice is it actually gets bonus to gun usage.

Something like annihilate if cast as a spell simply is never going to use any of your hand to hand tricks at all. If you had some kind of TW weapon that projected it that would fall under most of the gun restrictions so won't get much if any of your HtH tricks.

Basically the only way it would work is if you had a hand weapon that had an annihilate effect and I can't think that would be healthy for the user to try to wield. Well unless you can regrow hands/arms quickly.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Jefffar »

Also depends on if you are following the melee attack system as written or using some kind of turn-based house rules varient.

Under the rules as written the target.has an action to turn around before the teleporter can wind up and attack.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Greepnak wrote:
I'd also wonder how your PCs got their hands on Annihilate so early/easily, and how they can manage to cast it more than once every now and then, given that it costs 600 PPE and even a 15th level LLW isnt going to have that kind of PPE without lots of Talismans or other gear. A few other casters could get it easier (Temporal Wiz, Shifter) but still.


Temporal wizard. Everyone in the party has about 200 megadamage per action general damage potential (cosmo knights etc) so its not like one or two anihilates per day for the wizard is over the top, but it's annoying when combined with teleport and crit from behind. I care less about the damage and more about how to provide challenging content to such a high strength team.


Well, the genie you let out was letting people play things that were never really intended to be PCs in the first place.

However, if most characters can do 200 MDC or so per attack (first off...how? Even a Cosmo-Knight with a maxed out weapon can only touch that with crits)....

I fail to see the issue. Your Temporal Wizard is using SIX attacks and NINE HUNDRED P.P.E. to potentially crit for 1600 on a full up max roll. If he even hits. Seems like he's actually underperforming the rest of the group, really, because after that he's done for the day (unless you're letting people roll around with tens of thousands of PPE, which would once again put us firmly in the area of "auto crits from behind are not the real problem" territory.)

Not even sure how he guy can access 900 PPE without you Monty-hauling him a wheelbarrow full of Talismans as it is.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

And this all assumes the person he teleported behind doesn't simply turn around and shoot him in the face, in the three attacks it takes him get off an Annihilate.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Mack »

For countering a typical backstab, have a victim equipped with a shield plate across his back that gives off a stunning blast when struck. Even if it only happens once, it will give the players something to think about.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by kaid »

I am really curious what attacks are doing 200 points of damage every attack. Especially given a GB damage would max out at 180. Other than unlimited supply of missile barrages I guess I am drawing a total blank at anything with that damage output as an average.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by slade the sniper »

I would assume that with good tactics, paranoia and radar, none of your enemies should be back stabbed unless they were alone. Overwatch is a thing.

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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:To be clear:

Some of those martial arts it is listed (fairly clearly, if IIRC) as automatic critical strike from behind OR surprise.

You dont have to sneak up on them, just be behind them.

Radar on small units would work just fine in a melee, as long as the pulse emitter isnt higher than the person(s); there are examples of Borgs having on-board radar that lets them shoot behind them without looking; (first shows up on Wolfen Quatoria in Phase World, but later makes an appearance in the Bionics Sourcebook).

That wouldn't necessarily protect you from the auto crit from behind, but it would let you know he was there so you could turn and face him.

The other abilities i listed (some of the spells, id have to look up the names, Psionic's Intuitive Combat, etc) allow you to parry/dodge attacks even IF you are surprised or from behind, so those would cover you just fine... and Juicers and Crazies can auto-dodge attacks from behind/surprise, as well.

And, like i said... unless you're going high-end loot/monty haul, most melee weapons in Rifts simply aren't THAT dangerous. About the best you get at "easily available" is weapons in the 3D6-4D6MD range, with 1D4x10 (a TW Lightblade) at the outside. Powerful, but hardly broken, and if theyre maneuvering to get behind guys, theyre spending attacks not attacking. Itll even out.

Now, if you start handing out high end Rune Weapons or the (technically) TW Swords from Federation of Magic, that all hit like trucks, things could start getting dicey.

Do you have a rule to support standard radar detecting things just fine in mellee combat.
PG 41 gmg states that most radar loose track of targets flying close to the ground. even people can only be tracked 50' above flat ground. (kind of implies that standard radar does not work for melee combat.)
PG 70-GMG states the skill read radar and sonar detects aircraft ships and submarines.
Pg 173 CWC states ground targets for enhanced radar are hard to detect as usual unless flying 100 feet above the ground giant sized or standing in the open.
(If I spent more time I could find more but that was just a quick search.)

So I would like to know is there anything that says standard radar can track ground targets and be used to detect targets close to the ground. (Because quite frankly there is statements that say they can not.)
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Just have an NPC stand with their back to the wall.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:Just have an NPC stand with their back to the wall.

Or a tree or two NPCs standing back to back.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by dreicunan »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Just have an NPC stand with their back to the wall.

Or a tree or two NPCs standing back to back.

Have a race of NPCs with literal eyes in the back of their head declare war on all the dishonorable gits out there who try backstabbing instead of facing people honorably.

Or an NPc that is a tree standing with its back to a wall. :D
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by kaid »

I am still interested how they are doing on average 200 damage in attack. Unless they are backstabbing people with glitterboy boom guns I don't see how that is likely. I think that is much more likely a source of issues than the n&ss martial arts.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

kaid wrote:I am still interested how they are doing on average 200 damage in attack. Unless they are backstabbing people with glitterboy boom guns I don't see how that is likely. I think that is much more likely a source of issues than the n&ss martial arts.

A abilty to rurn sdc to mdc found in mystic china and a power to turn chi to ps. You could reach that level of damage.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Devjannz »

Greepnak wrote:Hi. So my game has ninjas & superspies h2h styles in the Rifts earth setting, because I and my players found "basic, expert, martial arts, commando, assassin" to be dry bread.

Some styles from N&SS have automatic critical strike from behind.

This bleeds into "unable to parry/dodge an attack from behind"

I dislike things being so good that they're the go-to all the time. Thoughts?


The way I see it, the training in that Martial Art only allows you the Auto Crit from Behind when using a type of attack specific to that martial art (Punch, Kick, Weapon, Etc). It does not give you Auto Crit from Behind with a Laser Rifle or any weapon like that. At least that is how I would do it.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Devjannz wrote:
Greepnak wrote:Hi. So my game has ninjas & superspies h2h styles in the Rifts earth setting, because I and my players found "basic, expert, martial arts, commando, assassin" to be dry bread.

Some styles from N&SS have automatic critical strike from behind.

This bleeds into "unable to parry/dodge an attack from behind"

I dislike things being so good that they're the go-to all the time. Thoughts?


The way I see it, the training in that Martial Art only allows you the Auto Crit from Behind when using a type of attack specific to that martial art (Punch, Kick, Weapon, Etc). It does not give you Auto Crit from Behind with a Laser Rifle or any weapon like that. At least that is how I would do it.


You're correct (as i think i pointed out earlier.)

ALL N&SS Martial Art forms only work with themselves. Their bonuses only work with weapons, even, if that MA form has a weapon kata with that MA.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Greepnak »

taalismn wrote:
eliakon wrote:One other thing that will REALLY curtail the abuse of this is the 'Gander rule'
Aka what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Just explain to the Players that if they wish to use this as one of their 'go to' tactics, that that is fine. But that the NPCs of the world will similarly be using the same tactics as well.
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I wanted to let you know that The Law Of Ninja Attraction has become part of my go-to vernacular thanks to this post.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Greepnak »

kaid wrote:I am really curious what attacks are doing 200 points of damage every attack. Especially given a GB damage would max out at 180. Other than unlimited supply of missile barrages I guess I am drawing a total blank at anything with that damage output as an average.


Cosmo knight with 51 PS+ paired weapons with the cosmo wep and a Ghostblade from WB japan.

Everything in our game is balanced around large numbers. Just the story we're enjoying, since the characters are all morally constrained from using rockets to hunt rabbits. I'm hoping to go hunting the Lord of the Deep eventually.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Eagle »

I don't understand. Are you... are you somehow running out of bad guys? Can you not just throw in a couple more people in your encounters?


Edit: Read further into the thread. Yeah, I don't think the issue is coming from the N&S HTH skills. It's people running around as Cosmo-Knights and Temporal Wizards who can whip out Annihilate regularly. I mean, I've played in those types of games, and they can be very fun. Not blaming anybody for enjoying that sort of campaign. But yeah, you're gonna have a hard time finding people who can challenge those PCs.

To really give them a good fight, it sounds like you're going to have to start sending them against dragons, nightbane, tricked-out wizards, that sort of thing.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by kaid »

Greepnak wrote:
kaid wrote:I am really curious what attacks are doing 200 points of damage every attack. Especially given a GB damage would max out at 180. Other than unlimited supply of missile barrages I guess I am drawing a total blank at anything with that damage output as an average.


Cosmo knight with 51 PS+ paired weapons with the cosmo wep and a Ghostblade from WB japan.

Everything in our game is balanced around large numbers. Just the story we're enjoying, since the characters are all morally constrained from using rockets to hunt rabbits. I'm hoping to go hunting the Lord of the Deep eventually.



Honestly it sounds like the N&SS stuff probably is not going to really do much to impact that level of power anyway. Hehe when dealing with things like the lord of the deep good luck trying to find a back to sneak behind to stab haha.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by guardiandashi »

kaid wrote:
Greepnak wrote:
kaid wrote:I am really curious what attacks are doing 200 points of damage every attack. Especially given a GB damage would max out at 180. Other than unlimited supply of missile barrages I guess I am drawing a total blank at anything with that damage output as an average.


Cosmo knight with 51 PS+ paired weapons with the cosmo wep and a Ghostblade from WB japan.

Everything in our game is balanced around large numbers. Just the story we're enjoying, since the characters are all morally constrained from using rockets to hunt rabbits. I'm hoping to go hunting the Lord of the Deep eventually.



Honestly it sounds like the N&SS stuff probably is not going to really do much to impact that level of power anyway. Hehe when dealing with things like the lord of the deep good luck trying to find a back to sneak behind to stab haha.

I know my characters never went after him, but my "main" character could likely take him out, even if "overkill" was the order of the day but ...
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by dreicunan »

Just throw a few scarecrow bursters at them.

Or mega-hero immortals (off the top of my head, godlings, demigods, or golems would all work nicely) with invulnerability, zombie flesh, immunity to magic, and immunity to psionics (plus space native for non-golems). Gravity waves would eliminate black holes as options as well thanks to anti-gravity flight.

Both of those combos give you characters who basically cannot be destroyed, forcing the party to come up with other ways to defeat them.

Or throw a party composed of both of them at the characters.
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Re: I let the genie out of the box now I am unsure how to co

Unread post by Mack »

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