SB: Heroes of Humanity

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Thias
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SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Thias »

I am starting to get interested in Heroes of Humanity. I am curious of what you like about the book and what it contains (apart from the Palladium Book Store info).

An index of what will be found in the book would be great.

The reason that i ask is that I do not like the Coalition War Machine as its just a weapon catalouge. I like text info about the world and fluff, not just an arsenal. Weapons and vehicles i have a plenty. I need info about Chi Town, Coalition States and other fluff.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by boring7 »

Thias wrote:I am starting to get interested in Heroes of Humanity. I am curious of what you like about the book and what it contains (apart from the Palladium Book Store info).

An index of what will be found in the book would be great.

The reason that i ask is that I do not like the Coalition War Machine as its just a weapon catalouge. I like text info about the world and fluff, not just an arsenal. Weapons and vehicles i have a plenty. I need info about Chi Town, Coalition States and other fluff.

There's a lot of fluff about the politics and particulars of the war, relevant (at least for now) updates to the things you say you need, but from what I read (borrowed it, didn't finish it) I think you need other books first.

And the updates may be rendered irrelevant, we've had a couple of "hey Coalition people are learning magic/dbees aren't all monsters" head-fakes that imply a cultural revolution in the CS...it never happens.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by HWalsh »

boring7 wrote:
Thias wrote:I am starting to get interested in Heroes of Humanity. I am curious of what you like about the book and what it contains (apart from the Palladium Book Store info).

An index of what will be found in the book would be great.

The reason that i ask is that I do not like the Coalition War Machine as its just a weapon catalouge. I like text info about the world and fluff, not just an arsenal. Weapons and vehicles i have a plenty. I need info about Chi Town, Coalition States and other fluff.

There's a lot of fluff about the politics and particulars of the war, relevant (at least for now) updates to the things you say you need, but from what I read (borrowed it, didn't finish it) I think you need other books first.

And the updates may be rendered irrelevant, we've had a couple of "hey Coalition people are learning magic/dbees aren't all monsters" head-fakes that imply a cultural revolution in the CS...it never happens.


The best thing are the Advanced Training options. Ways for mostly Men At Arms OCCs to broaden their scope, or specialize a bit. Very useful.

Edit:
I mean you haven't lived until you've seen a Cyber-Knight with HtH Commando from CQC Training.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Thias »

boring7 wrote:But from what I read (borrowed it, didn't finish it) I think you need other books first.


What other books would that be?

I am not interested in The Minion War, I want the Coalition Fluff for other things.
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kaid
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by kaid »

The book is a very solid CS book. The advanced training is a pretty neat system to give military MOS type OCC some interesting flavor options. I really love the robot controller OCC basically a combat mechanic who has skelebots dedicated to them for combat and salvage/repair operations.

The other new OCC are all pretty solid as well and good for any CS oriented game.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by slade the sniper »

Going to agree with what others posted. The book is so so on the CS fluff (but I liked it anyway), but the advanced training piece is great, and it ports over very well to other military/merc type games such as Robotech and Recon...they act like mini MOS packages with the cost being future skills.

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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Greepnak »

Thias wrote:I am starting to get interested in Heroes of Humanity. I am curious of what you like about the book and what it contains (apart from the Palladium Book Store info).

An index of what will be found in the book would be great.

The reason that i ask is that I do not like the Coalition War Machine as its just a weapon catalouge. I like text info about the world and fluff, not just an arsenal. Weapons and vehicles i have a plenty. I need info about Chi Town, Coalition States and other fluff.


It's probably one of my favorite source books. Droolworthy Chuck Walton artwork all over, doesnt waste space on 30 new OCCs, and does neat things with worldbuilding and characterization (Karl Prosek doubling down on his LOVE HUMANS thing, his son Joseph not so, the effects of the majority of CS troops getting real field experience fighting demons alongside d-bees and men of magic leading to the military going full on dont ask dont tell with magic and how this might have ramifications later... and yet, there's so much overt "hahaha I bathe in your blood and wear severed babies to ornament my loins" supernatural evil running around NA that many people think Karl was right all along)

Remember, one of Poor Yorick's orophecies indicated that the CS people were ready to be shown the truth, and that there would be a revolution carried on in the name of the one who shows them the truth after he is killed! I think the books are setting up a change in the power structure.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Axelmania »

Imma stack the advanced training with the stuff from that Merc Ops book.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Maddux »

Myself like when they leave something to us to make so we can make it different not the same old Chi-town ever GM has. Lets us put or spin on it how thing look and feel and work there just me though.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by jaymz »

Thias wrote:
boring7 wrote:But from what I read (borrowed it, didn't finish it) I think you need other books first.


What other books would that be?

I am not interested in The Minion War, I want the Coalition Fluff for other things.



Then you may be disappointed as this nook hinges on the minion war as it happens on Rifts earth. Much of the fluff is predicated on the war happening right now as it were.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by kaid »

jaymz wrote:
Thias wrote:
boring7 wrote:But from what I read (borrowed it, didn't finish it) I think you need other books first.


What other books would that be?

I am not interested in The Minion War, I want the Coalition Fluff for other things.



Then you may be disappointed as this nook hinges on the minion war as it happens on Rifts earth. Much of the fluff is predicated on the war happening right now as it were.



A lot of the stuff though can be used in even non minion war campagins. The skelebot controller and most of the other new OCC work fine. The advanced training stuff still works fine. The main stuff that you would not get use out of is the quick guide stuff to various demons/devils and some of the fluff.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by jaymz »

Fluff which is what i specified and takes up enough of the book to likely make disappointing for this particular person.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Axelmania »

They should make a book for each state in the order it joined. Call Chi-town "Rifts State Book 1".
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Akajr2108 »

boring7 wrote:
Thias wrote:I am starting to get interested in Heroes of Humanity. I am curious of what you like about the book and what it contains (apart from the Palladium Book Store info).

An index of what will be found in the book would be great.

The reason that i ask is that I do not like the Coalition War Machine as its just a weapon catalouge. I like text info about the world and fluff, not just an arsenal. Weapons and vehicles i have a plenty. I need info about Chi Town, Coalition States and other fluff.

There's a lot of fluff about the politics and particulars of the war, relevant (at least for now) updates to the things you say you need, but from what I read (borrowed it, didn't finish it) I think you need other books first.

And the updates may be rendered irrelevant, we've had a couple of "hey Coalition people are learning magic/dbees aren't all monsters" head-fakes that imply a cultural revolution in the CS...it never happens.



Really good stuff regarding traning schools. There is excellent info to update and re-invigoroate existing characters
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Thias »

Well I do not care for the whole universe war between demons and devils or whatnot. I only play Rifts and do not care what happens outside Earth. This is much because I was so tired of the Tokeen War being dragged out in 6 or 7 books all those years ago. So I just buy certain books nowdays that will help my campaign that I am slowly building which will focus more on the CS/Xiticix/Lazlo/FoM/Archie 3/Republicans/Shemarrians/FQ/Canada conflicts
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by SereneTsunami »

I just got my copy in the mail and I am enjoying it. I'm not close to digesting it all yet, but a few things stand out right away.

1. New skill sets for men at arms type characters, something they need desperately to compete with magical and supernatural characters.

2. Great lore on the CS, and some important setting info, particularly on the perceived invincibility of the CS. We are finally told about the price the CS has paid to build such a large military.

3. A lot of info on the tactics of both sides in the war. I will need to buy more of the Minion Wars books to put this into perspective.

For the first time I can see what a diverse group of PCs could look like if they were Coalition. One thing I had wished for and don't see is a Vanguard Demon Hunter update. Perhaps in the next book. I will be purchasing more of the Minion Wars books because of HoH. Thanks to all who helped write it.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by TeeAychEeMarchHare »

I was disappointed and at the same time I liked it.

The editing was sub-par: there are a lot of spelling and grammar mistakes. Not as bad the novels, but still more than is acceptable.

There was a lot of re-hashing the same material within the book. Not "Let's use stuff from CWC again", more like "Copypasta this paragraph from page 43, and put it on 65. Then slightly reword these paragraphs from page 38 and use them again on 97."

I liked the training options. And I liked the new mechs.

This is just me personally, but I'm reading this book and wondering if KS is trying to un-paint himself out of the corner he's in with the CS. Could this spell a change in the CS's hardline "humans only, no magic allowed" policy? Yeah, it's possible that Prosek might have an "I was wrong" moment, ala Free Quebec. Not that he's likely to actually change his mind, but he's pretty good at manipulating people and this is something I can see him doing. Even more so when there are tens of thousands of CS troops with a new outlook on D-Bee's and magic, who are wondering if maybe the CS isn't right after all, and who are not only highly trained, they're also combat-hardened AND in the CS's back yard. Add to that the economics of accepting D-Bee's (someone else to tax) and the fact that tyrants LOVE having more people to control, and I could easily see Prosek having a 'change of heart'.

Alternately, I can see this being the start of a civil war within the CS. Or, more accurately, a large segment of the population deciding to secede from the Coalition.

Overall, I think the book could have been better, but it's still worth buying.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Tiree »

First thing I do when I have a players who can't stand the Coalition, I break out the Coalition Public Image Machine. One thing that we all know well about the Coalition is there propaganda is the best in the world. So I have Emperor Prosek step down, and put his son up. Then they institute the "Kindler and Gentler" Coalition Campaign. Where the CS is seen to be helping out, more tolerant to human looking D-Bee's.

In reality - it is just a ruse, and there are special death squads still going out providing genocide to the countryside!
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Lt Gargoyle »

i ran a campaign where i allowed the PCs to play in a world without the CS. They were up set to discover they were constantly under attack from monsters and Fellow humans alike. The landscape is horrible without the CS. Because of them there is a certain amount of order. They bring a financial stability to the region. and lots of the things that bump in the night are kept in check. I have not read this book yet. but i am looking forward to the read.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Lt Gargoyle wrote:i ran a campaign where i allowed the PCs to play in a world without the CS. They were up set to discover they were constantly under attack from monsters and Fellow humans alike. The landscape is horrible without the CS. Because of them there is a certain amount of order. They bring a financial stability to the region. and lots of the things that bump in the night are kept in check. I have not read this book yet. but i am looking forward to the read.


sounds inexplicably worse than almost everywhere else on the entire planet. i mean, everywhere else also doesn't have the CS, and certainly they therefore don't have a large stable kingdom of humans everywhere else... but apart from maybe china, it really isn't nearly as bad as what you're describing here. seems kind of pointless and arbitrary. i mean, if there was no CS, i'd expect someone else to step in and fill the gap... wilks, ARCHIE, the pecos empire, some of the other smaller kingdoms... maybe not taking over to the extent that the CS has, but something.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by jaymz »

Triax/ngr.
Warlords of russia.
Sovietski
New japan
Several kingdom is SA.

Yes there are large human kingdoms in other areas doing like the CS is in their areas.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Shark_Force wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:i ran a campaign where i allowed the PCs to play in a world without the CS. They were up set to discover they were constantly under attack from monsters and Fellow humans alike. The landscape is horrible without the CS. Because of them there is a certain amount of order. They bring a financial stability to the region. and lots of the things that bump in the night are kept in check. I have not read this book yet. but i am looking forward to the read.


sounds inexplicably worse than almost everywhere else on the entire planet. i mean, everywhere else also doesn't have the CS, and certainly they therefore don't have a large stable kingdom of humans everywhere else... but apart from maybe china, it really isn't nearly as bad as what you're describing here. seems kind of pointless and arbitrary. i mean, if there was no CS, i'd expect someone else to step in and fill the gap... wilks, ARCHIE, the pecos empire, some of the other smaller kingdoms... maybe not taking over to the extent that the CS has, but something.
archie tried it before and it don't end well for his folks
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Shark_Force »

jaymz wrote:Triax/ngr.
Warlords of russia.
Sovietski
New japan
Several kingdom is SA.

Yes there are large human kingdoms in other areas doing like the CS is in their areas.


there are large human (or mostly human, or in some cases not human at all) kingdoms in other places. most of them aren't really described as doing what the CS does at all.

triax? let's see, well, they haven't genetically engineered an entire race to be their slave soldiers, they actually do allow d-bees to potentially become citizens (though it's certainly unlikely), and while they don't allow d-bees to live in their territory, i've seen nothing that suggests they are in fact actively seeking the extermination of d-bees, they just aren't willing to expend the effort to protect them. i'm not aware of any clear indication on how they feel about magic or psionics, but they don't seem to care much. they don't actively suppress learning or education to keep their population easy to manipulate either. they certainly aren't all sunshine, rainbows, and lollipops, but... honestly? they're still not doing what the CS are doing.

warlords of russia, honestly, i don't even remember it coming up as far as d-bees. i don't think they really trust magic, but frankly, the impression i got is that they're mostly busy fighting each other. in any event, much like NGR: are they the kindest and most wonderful people in the world? nope. are they doing the same things the CS are doing? also nope.

sovietski... not sure about them. haven't really heard anything at all. still, i bet it's more or less the same: not great. but probably still not the same as the CS.

new japan i don't know much about at all. i don't really get a nazi vibe from what i do know, so i'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that, once more... maybe not exactly kind and loving, but probably still not doing what the CS does.

several kingdoms in south america: which ones? most of them actually seem to be quite accepting of the supernatural so long as the supernatural thing in question is not trying to kill them. the closest allies of the CS would be colombia, which has a major portion of their population being d-bees and willingly make use of magic in their armed forces, so... not really all that much like the CS in the end.

are there other large, powerful nations in the world? sure. many of them are actually legitimately under constant siege by powerful enemies, unlike the CS where it is constantly blown out of proportion to justify the horrible things the CS does. and still, most of them aren't as bad as the CS. i mean, if you want to compare the CS to, like... atlantis? sure. the CS are less bad than atlantis. but i see no particular reason to presume that in the absence of the CS or a CS clone, there would be absolutely nothing providing most of the beneficial aspects of having a large stable kingdom, just... if not completely without the racism, the fascism, the fearmongering, the murder, the slavery, the blind hatred, the oppression, etc, probably less of those things.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Lt Gargoyle wrote:i ran a campaign where i allowed the PCs to play in a world without the CS. They were up set to discover they were constantly under attack from monsters and Fellow humans alike. The landscape is horrible without the CS. Because of them there is a certain amount of order. They bring a financial stability to the region. and lots of the things that bump in the night are kept in check. I have not read this book yet. but i am looking forward to the read.


sounds inexplicably worse than almost everywhere else on the entire planet. i mean, everywhere else also doesn't have the CS, and certainly they therefore don't have a large stable kingdom of humans everywhere else... but apart from maybe china, it really isn't nearly as bad as what you're describing here. seems kind of pointless and arbitrary. i mean, if there was no CS, i'd expect someone else to step in and fill the gap... wilks, ARCHIE, the pecos empire, some of the other smaller kingdoms... maybe not taking over to the extent that the CS has, but something.
archie tried it before and it don't end well for his folks


ARCHIE tried once. he's still alive, which means he could try again. given that eventually, small villages succeeded *without* having a small army of robotic soldiers to protect them, i have to suspect that ARCHIE would have eventually been able to accomplish something, provided there was no other existing powerful force in place when he tried.
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kaid
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by kaid »

Triax is pretty heavily human supremacist. They are starting to ease up on it a bit but its more like if the CS gave a patina of legality to the burbs and their residence than real support for them. In time that may change but currently Dbees are very much second class citizens at best.

Warlords of russia varies a bit but overall the warlords seem pretty human first and most dbee communities are at best opressed and at worst eliminated. They have proven some willingness to work with Dbees if they find something to gain but then turn around and eliminate them once their usefulness is over.

Sovietski without the raw preview does not really say to much one way or the other. In the raw preview it looks like while not embracing Dbee with open arm are at least willing to give them a chance if they are willing to conform to the sovietski society and tow the party line. So not welcoming but not inimicable either.

Some of the SA kingdoms are very similar to CS including use of uplifted animal species with same general background as dog boys. Most are not quite as anti DBee or have a specific type of Dbee that they are okay with such as dwarves but overall most are very human first.

Two main australian tech cities are very much like the CS. Even more insular though pretty much even humans from outside the cities are considered little better than alien invaders.



Some of the enclaves that are most welcoming would probably be tritonia and new japan. The former has acquired a lot of random races and seems pretty open to them as long as they are willing to follow the same laws everybody else does.

New japan given it was ported from golden age earth is both more egalitarian and has less built up terror of the alien than most other enclaves have.

I guess the tundra rangers kinda fall into a similar frame of mind as new japan both being golden age transplants and more willing to give people a chance to prove themselves one way or the other before prejudging them.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by eliakon »

kaid wrote:Triax is pretty heavily human supremacist. They are starting to ease up on it a bit but its more like if the CS gave a patina of legality to the burbs and their residence than real support for them. In time that may change but currently Dbees are very much second class citizens at best.

Warlords of russia varies a bit but overall the warlords seem pretty human first and most dbee communities are at best opressed and at worst eliminated. They have proven some willingness to work with Dbees if they find something to gain but then turn around and eliminate them once their usefulness is over.

Sovietski without the raw preview does not really say to much one way or the other. In the raw preview it looks like while not embracing Dbee with open arm are at least willing to give them a chance if they are willing to conform to the sovietski society and tow the party line. So not welcoming but not inimicable either.

Some of the SA kingdoms are very similar to CS including use of uplifted animal species with same general background as dog boys. Most are not quite as anti DBee or have a specific type of Dbee that they are okay with such as dwarves but overall most are very human first.

Two main australian tech cities are very much like the CS. Even more insular though pretty much even humans from outside the cities are considered little better than alien invaders.



Some of the enclaves that are most welcoming would probably be tritonia and new japan. The former has acquired a lot of random races and seems pretty open to them as long as they are willing to follow the same laws everybody else does.

New japan given it was ported from golden age earth is both more egalitarian and has less built up terror of the alien than most other enclaves have.

I guess the tundra rangers kinda fall into a similar frame of mind as new japan both being golden age transplants and more willing to give people a chance to prove themselves one way or the other before prejudging them.

The CS though is unique in its levels of xenophobia, genocide, aggression, slavery, etc....
The rest of the world seems to function just fine with out murdering every non-human and practitioner of magic they can find. So the idea that if you stop doing that specific behavior North America will become a hell hole of the worst sort of dog-eat-dog world seems pretty arbitrary and mainly trying to justify the existence of the CS.
Hey, if you want the CS, then just say "I want the CS in my games." That's all that is really needed. You don't need to try and create some 'proof' that the CS is 'needed' to make the setting work or else everyone dies.
Because you can't really do that, all you can say is that you don't want the world to work with out a CS in it. Which is fine but it is not even remotely the same thing as the claim that the world won't/can't work with out the CS in it.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by DhAkael »

eliakon wrote:Hey, if you want the CS, then just say "I want the CS in my games." That's all that is really needed. You don't need to try and create some 'proof' that the CS is 'needed' to make the setting work or else everyone dies.
Because you can't really do that, all you can say is that you don't want the world to work with out a CS in it. Which is fine but it is not even remotely the same thing as the claim that the world won't/can't work with out the CS in it.


Couldn't have said it better myself without resorting to numerous rage induced 4 letter words leveled at closet facists :D
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by taalismn »

DhAkael wrote:[
I'll just be over here ignoring 'Heroes of Humanity' as the waste of paper it is.


But take and subvert what material you want from it as yeh will. Beat the CS by being better than them. :D
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
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To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by DhAkael »

taalismn wrote:
DhAkael wrote:[
I'll just be over here ignoring 'Heroes of Humanity' as the waste of paper it is.


But take and subvert what material you want from it as yeh will. Beat the CS by being better than them. :D

Long term game plan; the CS WILL be redeemed. It will be painful, there will be blood, but everyone will be better for it.
*Looks over at Pinhead, Chatterer, Butterball and The Voice play pinata with Karl and Joseph Prossek*
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by taalismn »

I just swipe the untainted good ideas from the CS...call it defectors, espionage, parallel development of good ideas/commonsense...
Even if it's blatantly knocked off from the CS...well, stolen goods are never sold at a loss....
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
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And the Turning of a Page"

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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Jorick »

The Heroes of Humanity book doesn't actually make the CS heroes. They're cast as bad. Some of them might have their opinions changed.

I don't understand why people have a problem with a large barbaric but orderly force being the closest thing to an order that lets a species of weaklings survive in a post-apocalypse filled with demons. Why does the greater conflict in this fantasy world have to be about good overcoming evil? Why can't bridges and roads and walls be built by an evil empire to help fight chaos? Why is it so offensive that the reality of the fantasy world is one where good guys have to struggle? I feel like a lot of fantasy and sci-fi is just that, and certainly role playing games often are. Especially post-apocalypses, where everything is either utter chaos and struggle (zombies etc.), or people living through dystopias. You're batman in Gotham where the government is horrible, but at least it's not the denizens of Arkham running free. Crappy choice. Thank goodness for the great hero.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by eliakon »

Jorick wrote:The Heroes of Humanity book doesn't actually make the CS heroes. They're cast as bad. Some of them might have their opinions changed.

I don't understand why people have a problem with a large barbaric but orderly force being the closest thing to an order that lets a species of weaklings survive in a post-apocalypse filled with demons. Why does the greater conflict in this fantasy world have to be about good overcoming evil? Why can't bridges and roads and walls be built by an evil empire to help fight chaos? Why is it so offensive that the reality of the fantasy world is one where good guys have to struggle? I feel like a lot of fantasy and sci-fi is just that, and certainly role playing games often are. Especially post-apocalypses, where everything is either utter chaos and struggle (zombies etc.), or people living through dystopias. You're batman in Gotham where the government is horrible, but at least it's not the denizens of Arkham running free. Crappy choice. Thank goodness for the great hero.

Its not.
The problem is when the barbarians start to be presented as 'not really bad'
Crappy choices are fine. When the choice is crappy.
When the evil empire is presented as 'just misunderstood' or 'differently good' that's when the problems start.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Jorick »

eliakon wrote:Its not.
The problem is when the barbarians start to be presented as 'not really bad'
Crappy choices are fine. When the choice is crappy.
When the evil empire is presented as 'just misunderstood' or 'differently good' that's when the problems start.


I don't see that happening anywhere, in any book at least. There are situations that present difficult choices, like having to ally with the coalition to beat demon armies. That can have positive results, like the people of the coalition changing their minds. Or it can lead to further tragedy, like no one being able to ally with anyone else. That's all HoH is about. The CS are the ones who have to change their ways for there to be a happy ending. Not the heroes.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by eliakon »

Jorick wrote:
eliakon wrote:Its not.
The problem is when the barbarians start to be presented as 'not really bad'
Crappy choices are fine. When the choice is crappy.
When the evil empire is presented as 'just misunderstood' or 'differently good' that's when the problems start.


I don't see that happening anywhere, in any book at least. There are situations that present difficult choices, like having to ally with the coalition to beat demon armies. That can have positive results, like the people of the coalition changing their minds. Or it can lead to further tragedy, like no one being able to ally with anyone else. That's all HoH is about. The CS are the ones who have to change their ways for there to be a happy ending. Not the heroes.

I'm more talking about the hardcore CS fans who tend to lionize the CS.
The result tends to be the opposite of the (I presume) desired goal in that it hyper-polarizes the issue into two main groups: those who see the CS as good guys, and those who see the CS as evil monsters.
This then tends to color the responses most people have on the forums because it becomes hard to discuss the CS with out the discussion pretty much invariably descending into a flame inducing 'discussion' of the relative morality of the CS and what 'evil' is or what genocide is or is not and when it is or is not justified.

To be perfectly honest...
...I found the advanced training material from this book to be of great use to me in my games.
The rest of it is pretty much useless except in the most broad sense of being mined for ideas for me since I have basically rewritten the CS for my own game into my own personal houseruled evil empire. *shrugs* Its my game so I figure if people don't like my CS they don't have to play at my table right? (This, for me, solves a lot of issues I have with questions about how certain things can work...I simply deviate from the canon until they make sense to me)
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Shark_Force »

to be clear: i again wish to state, i am absolutely not proposing that if the CS were not around, that somehow all of north america would be full of democratic nations where everyone is equal and so on.

i'm simply contesting the idea that somehow without the CS, north america completely goes to crap and there would be absolutely no other powerful nations there. *that* is simply absurd. the new power might not even be nice. but, based on the way most every other human nation on the planet is, if not good (governments very rarely are), at least less bad than the CS... whatever sprung up in their place would most likely also wind up being less bad than the CS (though not necessarily). even if they had the same attitudes, they would likely not have "murder all the things" on their agenda; they might not react well to outsiders showing up in their lands, but i don't think anyone else has the attitude that they should be going into lands under other people's control, murdering those other people unless they agree 100% with their own nations, and then repeating it indefinitely. that's pretty much a CS-exclusive thing.

also, to clear up a misconception: there are precisely zero nations in south america that use uplifted animals the way the CS uses dog boys. this is not to say that there never was such a thing, merely that it is not the case at all now; there are two nations that are run by uplifted animals that were originally intended to be used much like dog boys, but the nations that did the uplifting were destroyed by the coming of the rifts hundreds of years ago in the rifts earth timeline. they no longer exist, and have not for some time. the nations in south america that have uplifted animals in them are composed almost entirely of uplifted animals (omagua has three gods and some werejaguars, and the silver river republic with animals has some uplifted humans, and both of them probably have some other groups in smallish numbers), they don't use the uplifted animals as slaves, they *are* the uplifted animals.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Lt Gargoyle »

I do not pretend that the Coalitions States are heros or the Good guys and yes the rest of the world has its own issues. Good GMs will take whatever part of the world and morph it into what they want and need.

That said, If the CS was not there who is to say things would not be dramatically different in a million different ways? You want the North America to be peaceful and love they fellow D-bee ok. You want to go to the extreme i did you can. The CS set stability up for the humans. Yes it has horrible consequences and according to the books it is because of the CS that there is universal credits and trade in NA because of their stability. Could someone else done it. sure. But if the magic kingdom wipe them off the face of the earth before they were anything but a small town. Would they have left Tolkeen or Lazo standing? I doubt it.
Then you have atlantis which i doubt would try to take the continent, but they would feel more inclined to go hunting further in like after the war with Tolkeen.

I see them as misguided people who have been feed lies and kept scared of the dark by their leaders. Fear messes with minds. Being hungry and on the verge of starving will mess with your mind. Lose everything you have with little hope to recover will send a person over the edge. I love the CS, they are a awesome bad guy and a resource for developing Recurring villains. I do not have issues with players wanting to play them either. I like a lot of their toys.
This is a rpg. where people can play the hero or the villain. GMs get to run games the way they want and hopefully have a group who enjoys their style of play.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Lt Gargoyle »

Shark_Force wrote:to be clear: i again wish to state, i am absolutely not proposing that if the CS were not around, that somehow all of north america would be full of democratic nations where everyone is equal and so on.

i'm simply contesting the idea that somehow without the CS, north america completely goes to crap and there would be absolutely no other powerful nations there. *that* is simply absurd. the new power might not even be nice. but, based on the way most every other human nation on the planet is, if not good (governments very rarely are), at least less bad than the CS... whatever sprung up in their place would most likely also wind up being less bad than the CS (though not necessarily). even if they had the same attitudes, they would likely not have "murder all the things" on their agenda; they might not react well to outsiders showing up in their lands, but i don't think anyone else has the attitude that they should be going into lands under other people's control, murdering those other people unless they agree 100% with their own nations, and then repeating it indefinitely. that's pretty much a CS-exclusive thing.

also, to clear up a misconception: there are precisely zero nations in south america that use uplifted animals the way the CS uses dog boys. this is not to say that there never was such a thing, merely that it is not the case at all now; there are two nations that are run by uplifted animals that were originally intended to be used much like dog boys, but the nations that did the uplifting were destroyed by the coming of the rifts hundreds of years ago in the rifts earth timeline. they no longer exist, and have not for some time. the nations in south america that have uplifted animals in them are composed almost entirely of uplifted animals (omagua has three gods and some werejaguars, and the silver river republic with animals has some uplifted humans, and both of them probably have some other groups in smallish numbers), they don't use the uplifted animals as slaves, they *are* the uplifted animals.


I used the Federation of Magic, they wiped chi town off the face of the planet before it was a fortified city. And like the CS in Kevin world they were on a conquering super power. They used Magic, demons and other things that they had up their sleeves. The high tech weapons were not as readily available on the black market. Also the players did not have universal credits, as they did not have a trusted banking system.

I am not saying id do this again. In fact more then likely go with a different angle. but its up to each gm.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by tsh77769 »

Axelmania wrote:Imma stack the advanced training with the stuff from that Merc Ops book.


What stuff from that Merc Ops book?

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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

tsh77769 wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Imma stack the advanced training with the stuff from that Merc Ops book.


What stuff from that Merc Ops book?

tsh77769

There's a boot camp adventure that gives you bonus skills and bonuses (some just flat +1 or whatever to certain actions, others are +% to certain skills).

On the CS, evil, stability, and the Minion War:

The books don't get into how much worse or better NA was as far as all the bad things that happened prior to the formation of the CS. To look at the Coalition's closest counterpart, the NGR, they had a real situation. Gargoyles blotted out the sky. That's pretty terrible and desperate. They don't talk specifically about anything like that in North America. That can lead many people to assume there was no big issue or danger other than "rifts happen", but then again, most of the adventure source material we have is for NA, not Europe or Asia. There are random encounters in these books that suggest alien intelligences are trying to break into reality.

Of course, this can also be true of anywhere, rifts happen.

So really the people who are saying, "It would happen this way" or "I run it like that" are as correct as canon in my opinion, because it's an RPG. Yeah, there's a lot of canon material that tells us various things about the setting, but it's also designed for us to decide what actually does occur. Most games with a highly involved GM tend to go off canon pretty quick because of all the threads the authors leave. We take it in a direction that doesn't mesh with what the authors throw at us several years later. That's just how it is. Doesn't make what you've decided invalid. "House rule settings" (and I hate the term because it makes it sound like it's not a valid form of the game when our adventures are absolutely what is intended) are reality. The authors are just tossing things at us, to tell their story. There's nothing that says "the people who follow official material are right, the rest of you are just making crap up that no one cares about"

anyway, enough quotation marks from me.

The CS gives NA stability because they were intended to be a problem on many different levels. Yeah, they're bad, but you're supposed to wonder if they're the worst and if you'll be damning everyone on the continent by creating the power vacuum that will occur by dismantling the state. It's like real life. You hate a certain country or political figure, but are you extreme enough to eliminate it when the consequences could be much worse?

While for our own purposes, we can decide the consequences are bad but everything will be better in short order, we can also make the CS' destruction one of the worst things to happen to NA.

Simplest answer to me, if you there is no minion war, say the CS is destroyed one way or another by some magical event set into motion by the FoM. No one is guarding the Devil's Gate and something worse comes out, filling the power vacuum before the FoM can move.

Of course, it could also be that nothing particularly bad happens, and NA becomes peaceful. Though who the crap wants that? I find Rifts to be less fun when it starts to loses it's grim harshness and i find the CS to be an integral part of that. Though that's my Rifts, it may not be yours.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Only problem with dealing with "what if"s is you could end up with Prosek's coalition looking like a neighborhood bully compare anything else.
Here is a few what ifs
1. Joseph Prosek dies and a member of chitown magic unit ends up being the hero
You could see a coalition with both tech and magic units and that could go either way.
2. Chitown is wiped from the map, and dunscon takes over.
3. Joseph Prosek is killed , but a more pro-dbee officer ends up being the hero.
4. Chitown is lefted alone by dunscon, no reason to attack them so.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Only problem with dealing with "what if"s is you could end up with Prosek's coalition looking like a neighborhood bully compare anything else.
Here is a few what ifs
1. Joseph Prosek dies and a member of chitown magic unit ends up being the hero
You could see a coalition with both tech and magic units and that could go either way.
2. Chitown is wiped from the map, and dunscon takes over.
3. Joseph Prosek is killed , but a more pro-dbee officer ends up being the hero.
4. Chitown is lefted alone by dunscon, no reason to attack them so.

Well, while all those things can be true, I believe my point was rather well-made. "what if" isn't the problem to me at all. It's discarding other's "what if" as superfluous and meaningless that are the problem.

We think we need to have a set canon to have a discussion, but the truth is we all interpret it to our own liking anyway. I'd rather discuss your version, which is just as valid to me as canon because that's the nature of RPG's. Instead, we all tend to say "canon means what i say it does", trying to impose our moral point of view into what the authors wrote and thereby claiming it agrees with what we're saying, rather than submitting to the facts.

But even then, it's kind of okay to do that, because the facts in Rifts create a lot of contradiction due to how the authors skew events to fit the narrative they're pushing forward. An excellent example of this are many of plot holes in the Tolkeen war, which have all been beaten to death, so I won't waste our time on that further.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by 13eowulf »

Alrik Vas wrote:
tsh77769 wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Imma stack the advanced training with the stuff from that Merc Ops book.


What stuff from that Merc Ops book?

tsh77769

There's a boot camp adventure that gives you bonus skills and bonuses (some just flat +1 or whatever to certain actions, others are +% to certain skills).

Isn't that Mercenary Adventures?
And isn't that an adventure you have to play through to get the bonuses, as you have to meet certain roll results and requirements?
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

13eowulf wrote:Isn't that Mercenary Adventures?
And isn't that an adventure you have to play through to get the bonuses, as you have to meet certain roll results and requirements?

Could be I'm mixing the books up, yeah. Been a while since i went through them.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Tiree »

I think there are three types of people who play rifts and look at the CS:

1. Rabid CS Fanatics
2. Rabid Anti-CS Fanatics
3. People who don't care

I want to say, most folks are in camp number 3. This is where I fall. But I know folks who are so anti-cs, they refuse to play the game. This is where I come up with the Kindler and Gentler Coalition Army. Because what's the point of having a huge amount of source material, equipment, etc... if a player who loves Palladium, can't get their head around having the CS. The Coalition Gear when the game came out was pretty much the only gear you had to play with. So you wanted to play, you had to use their gear.

I myself, I like them. They are a good antagonist, a human technological antagonist. While Federation of Magic is a good antagonist who uses magic and monsters. Archie III, is a good antagonist, Splugorth is another one. The game is geared to have a whole bunch of bad guys all around. But some folks, they want something different. They want to play a soldier - well you have limited options. Bring in the Coalition, reskin as much as you can for another entity. Or you make them a deserter (easier).

But the game is set: You vs. the World in a kitchen sink environment... enjoy it for what it is.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by (SHIFTY) »

What kind of types of specialties can your Men Of Arms OCC get? Are they Skill packages or something? :?:
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by mercedogre »

the book is missing experience charts for the 3 new OCC's, very dissappointed
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

mercedogre wrote:the book is missing experience charts for the 3 new OCC's, very dissappointed


Given how poorly edited and copypasta’d the whole thing was, this isnt shocking to me.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by TeeAychEeMarchHare »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
mercedogre wrote:the book is missing experience charts for the 3 new OCC's, very dissappointed


Given how poorly edited and copypasta’d the whole thing was, this isnt shocking to me.


That seems to be pretty standard for Palladium, especially for anything written after about WB7 or so.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Eagle »

I love the Coalition. It's a great storytelling tool. It also allows the GM to put players in an uncomfortable situation.

"Here are the heroes. They are humanity's last, best hope. And they're Nazis."

A lot of people have a real hard time dealing with that. Half the people on this board scream "Noooo!!!" and will argue with my premise. But that's what makes it so great. It's like a time travel story where you have to go back and save Hitler. It goes against all your instincts, and it's a really interesting dilemma that you never face in most settings.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Eagle wrote:I love the Coalition. It's a great storytelling tool. It also allows the GM to put players in an uncomfortable situation.

"Here are the heroes. They are humanity's last, best hope. And they're Nazis."

A lot of people have a real hard time dealing with that. Half the people on this board scream "Noooo!!!" and will argue with my premise. But that's what makes it so great. It's like a time travel story where you have to go back and save Hitler. It goes against all your instincts, and it's a really interesting dilemma that you never face in most settings.


More or less agreed.
The basic moral dilemma of quasi-nazis on one side, demons on the other, and everybody else being caught up in the middle, has always appealed to me.
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Re: SB: Heroes of Humanity

Unread post by Myrrhibis »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Eagle wrote:I love the Coalition. It's a great storytelling tool. It also allows the GM to put players in an uncomfortable situation.

"Here are the heroes. They are humanity's last, best hope. And they're Nazis."

A lot of people have a real hard time dealing with that. Half the people on this board scream "Noooo!!!" and will argue with my premise. But that's what makes it so great. It's like a time travel story where you have to go back and save Hitler. It goes against all your instincts, and it's a really interesting dilemma that you never face in most settings.


More or less agreed.
The basic moral dilemma of quasi-nazis on one side, demons on the other, and everybody else being caught up in the middle, has always appealed to me.


agreed. especially when you look closer at the genesis of the rabid pro-human view the CS holds.
Hence, taht I think most of us would rather see "Disavowed" before Arsenal.

We has guns & CS (or equivalent) aplenty. A formerly cheered-now despised protector group within the CS?
Not so much.
Myrrhibis
--the VAwitchy Gamer Chick
Help my eggs & hatchlings to grow to hatch: Get your own @ Dragcave.net

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