The Invincibility of the CS?

[Freemage]

Killer Cyborg: I actually agree with most of your Postzilla comment before (not going to quote it and make this post doubly huge). I think that while KS may have wanted Tolkeen to be a minor player but by dropping them into a 7 part series (1-6 War books and Aftermath) he went from what should have been, in my opinion, the low key N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God and instead made it G1-3 Against the Giants only to chase the rabbit to the D1-4 Descent series. I just don't think you can call something "minor" when it gets this kind of attention.

And this gets back to my earlier point about metaplot itself being part of the problem. There's a difference between an interactive medium and a passive one. Telling a story about the rise and fall of the Evil Empire is one thing; playing a game featuring an Evil Empire is a different matter entirely. Whether one views Tolkeen as a major player or just a minor dog to be kicked to establish the CS's Unambiguously Evil status doesn't matter, if you're forcing the PCs to be bit players in the scenario.

In Savage Rifts, set in late P.A. 109, the Fall of Tolkeen is an established fact. This turns it from a source of player frustration into an object lesson for the PCs about the approach that will NOT work for the Tomorrow Legion. PCs may very well have played a role during the Siege, but that's written into their Background, not something they have to sit by passively through multiple game sessions while they haplessly try to affect events they can't ever hope to alter.

[dreicunan]

Killer Cyborg: I actually agree with most of your Postzilla comment before (not going to quote it and make this post doubly huge). I think that while KS may have wanted Tolkeen to be a minor player but by dropping them into a 7 part series (1-6 War books and Aftermath) he went from what should have been, in my opinion, the low key N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God and instead made it G1-3 Against the Giants only to chase the rabbit to the D1-4 Descent series. I just don't think you can call something "minor" when it gets this kind of attention.

And this gets back to my earlier point about metaplot itself being part of the problem. There's a difference between an interactive medium and a passive one. Telling a story about the rise and fall of the Evil Empire is one thing; playing a game featuring an Evil Empire is a different matter entirely. Whether one views Tolkeen as a major player or just a minor dog to be kicked to establish the CS's Unambiguously Evil status doesn't matter, if you're forcing the PCs to be bit players in the scenario.

In Savage Rifts, set in late P.A. 109, the Fall of Tolkeen is an established fact. This turns it from a source of player frustration into an object lesson for the PCs about the approach that will NOT work for the Tomorrow Legion. PCs may very well have played a role during the Siege, but that's written into their Background, not something they have to sit by passively through multiple game sessions while they haplessly try to affect events they can't ever hope to alter.

I think that Kevin S's response to this would be: "Don't like it? Change it!" Don't misunderstand me, the point about metaplot heavy games is a great one (I played plenty of Old world of Darkness and also Adventure, Aberrant, and Trinity), but I don't think that Kevin S even considers that as an issue. He doesn't even run his own gaming system as written when he runs it by his own admission, so I don't think it even crosses his mind that players and GMs might feel bound by metaplot in his games.

[jaymz]

If he doesn't think people will feel bound by metaplpt he us wrong. Which isn't all that surprising.

[Shark_Force]

all this "tolkeen never had a chance" is nonsense. they never had a chance in a conventional war. fighting a conventional war on any level was stupid. deciding to switch to a scenario where they suffer equal losses to the CS at any point was plain suicidal.

You know, instead of once again pointing out the math and arguing about that stuff, I'll focus on the important part:
Kevin tells us that Tolkeen doesn't have a chance.
He did it in the RMB, and he did it in CW1, and I'm pretty sure he did it somewhere in-between those points.
When the writer of a story is telling you that one side doesn't have a chance, consistently, and that one side has no other purpose in the plot other than to get killed by the villain, believe the writer.

if the books said the boom gun was a worthless piece of junk but still had it dealing 3d6x10 damage at nearly 2 miles of range, i'd ignore the absurd claim that the boom gun was a piece of junk as well. tolkeen had an absolutely ridiculous amount of ability to fight an assymetrical war. regular assymetrical war can be quite powerful already. add magic to the mix, and it just gets completely unfair.

I have to agree with Killer Cyborg. Shark Force and Hwalsh keep saying that Tolkeen had the resources and capabilities to defeat the CS. Even if those were facts( they are not supported by the SoT) they do not mean that Tolkeen was guaranteed to survive. Tolkeen was never and could never be a threat to Chi-Town, let alone the Coalition. The Proseks need to manufacture threats to generate the fear that allows them to remain in power. Tolkeen was a convienant target for the agression that the Proseks needed to justify their repression of their own people. Hwalsh's argument also relies on the idea that the Coalition would eventually give up if Tolkeen followed his "perfect defense" scenario. I contend that it would be impossible for The Emperor to admit defeat in Tolkeen for any reason. A defeat would pop the baloon of safety that the Proseks rely on. The Proseks would have to continue the war for as long as it takes or endanger their hold over the citizens of Chi-Town.

prosek doesn't have to win, he just has to be able to claim he won. considering how apparently gullible the CS citizens are and how unwilling they are to question anything the CS tells them, that's a pretty major difference.

There's an issue with this analysis, though. I'm assuming you're drawing for comparison upon, say, North Vietnam vs. the U.S., or India vs. Britain, or Afghanistan vs. Russia, or Afghanistan vs. the U.S., etc--asymmetric warfare conducted with the intent of driving out an invader. This CAN work, but it requires a few things--and the first of these is the desire on the part of the invaders to not be genocidal [censored]s.

Vietnam and the various Afghan campaigns were wars of conquest--a desire to subjugate the local population into following your orders. This can be defeated by guerilla tactics (aka freedom fighters, aka terrorists), precisely because the whole point of the invasion is to keep the majority of the population alive and productive for the benefit of the conquering power. However, if your desire is not a subject peoples, but a conquered land, cleared of the current inhabitants? Yeah, asymmetric won't work for crap, because they literally don't care about whether or not the potentially productive occupants die in the crossfire--if anything, that just saves the trouble of rounding them up and marching them to the ovens later on.

This is further made easy by the fact that Target 1 of the genocidal campaign are visibly identifiable as targets--ie, D-bees who are visibly non-human. Target 2 (mages and psychics) can get sniffed out by Dog-Boys and Psi-Stalkers. At that point, your options for resistance fighters are human-seeming D-Bees with no significant innate supernatural powers. And many of these will just say, "Who, us? Nah, we're real humans, honest," and just collaborate with the invaders to protect themselves--possibly even losing track of their actual origin over a generation or two (ie, if you don't tell your kids that their grandparents came in through a Rift, they may never know).

Sure, you can have resistance fighters/terrorists who continue to evade patrols and such, but they will have no home to be fighting for--they'll be driven solely by the desire for vengeance, and that mission will ultimately die with them.

not necessarily. they wouldn't be able to hide amongst the populace the same way. but that doesn't mean they can't only take fights where they have the advantage, and disappear the rest of the time. they literally had the ability to teleport to escape tight spots. they could hide *anywhere* and what is the CS gonna do to get to them, check the entire megaverse all at once? and they could attack from almost anywhere. one moment, there could be no enemies within a 500 mile radius, the next moment you're getting jumped. and not only that, they can pull troops from a nigh-inexhaustible supply. i mean, so long as they're willing to deal with demons, they can just conjure up a fresh batch of demons/entities/etc for any fight they need... a fairly low level shifter can control something like a dozen gargoyles with class abilities alone as i recall, let him also use spells to summon up some entities or worms of taut or whatever else and you can have each spellcaster creating an entirely fresh group of enemies for you to have to fight through every single day, and if you kill them all, he'll just make more tomorrow (in some cases, he wouldn't even need to create new ones... tectonic entities just need more piles of rocks... or of MDC wood created through magic). spells like sustain could easily be used to make concerns about food meaningless, and spells like wall of defense could be used to make key production centres virtually unassailable by conventional means. with their earth warlocks, they could have produced a near-infinite supply of MDC materials. TW armour with impervious to energy could be distributed to make people immune to the weapons that a large portion of the attack force carries. salvage crews digging through the skelebot graveyards could have pulled in absolutely ridiculous amounts of money that they could have used in megaversal marketplaces to obtain any needed supplies, or considering it is a nigh-infinite megaverse, to find new ways of making their city basically impervious to conventional assault. they could have even carried the fight to the CS to a certain extent (not in an "attack the megacities and destroy them" kind of way, but in a "raiding party of expendable demons gets teleported into CS territory and attacks a valuable target" or a "supply lines between megacities are ambushed and plundered" kind of way).

there were so many ways that tolkeen could have used to try to turn the war into a huge mess that would be nearly impossible for the CS to actually win. i mean, the CS might be able to eventually say "look at all the demons we've killed, what a huge success" and then bug out, but to actually achieve their initial goals? there's a very real chance tolkeen could have stalled out for an extremely long time. had they found a way to make it *look* like their city was gone, the CS might have even just declared success in driving them off and pulled out.

it certainly wasn't a guaranteed success. but when you add magic into the equation, and especially when only one side has access to it, it *really* changes the equation. to look at that and say that there was no way for them to win, i'm not confident that's even remotely true. they sure aren't going to win by lining up all of their troops and charging headfirst at the CS forces, but if they used their magic to full advantage, it was not impossible.

now, because the author had already decided the outcome, in that sense, it was impossible. but the people in the setting had no way of knowing that, and for *them* to say it's impossible is just stupid.

[SereneTsunami]

I have to agree with Killer Cyborg. Shark Force and Hwalsh keep saying that Tolkeen had the resources and capabilities to defeat the CS. Even if those were facts( they are not supported by the SoT) they do not mean that Tolkeen was guaranteed to survive. Tolkeen was never and could never be a threat to Chi-Town, let alone the Coalition. The Proseks need to manufacture threats to generate the fear that allows them to remain in power. Tolkeen was a convienant target for the agression that the Proseks needed to justify their repression of their own people. Hwalsh's argument also relies on the idea that the Coalition would eventually give up if Tolkeen followed his "perfect defense" scenario. I contend that it would be impossible for The Emperor to admit defeat in Tolkeen for any reason. A defeat would pop the baloon of safety that the Proseks rely on. The Proseks would have to continue the war for as long as it takes or endanger their hold over the citizens of Chi-Town.

prosek doesn't have to win, he just has to be able to claim he won. considering how apparently gullible the CS citizens are and how unwilling they are to question anything the CS tells them, that's a pretty major difference.

To be clear, I asserted that the Proseks could not admit defeat or go home without destroying Tolkeen, and you base much of your theories on Chi-Town eventually ending hostilities. I am saying the political realities of the Prosek regime make that untenable. Proseks rule by force and the security their infallable leadership provides. A war without a "Win" would plant doubt in every citizens mind, and that it something the Proseks would not tolerate. I'm stressing this becuase no matter how many cool magic tricks Tolkeen comes up to stall and bleed the Coalition there is no way that the war can end the way you wish it would. It has little to do with tactics and everything to do with politics.

[Killer Cyborg]

all this "tolkeen never had a chance" is nonsense. they never had a chance in a conventional war. fighting a conventional war on any level was stupid. deciding to switch to a scenario where they suffer equal losses to the CS at any point was plain suicidal.

You know, instead of once again pointing out the math and arguing about that stuff, I'll focus on the important part:
Kevin tells us that Tolkeen doesn't have a chance.
He did it in the RMB, and he did it in CW1, and I'm pretty sure he did it somewhere in-between those points.
When the writer of a story is telling you that one side doesn't have a chance, consistently, and that one side has no other purpose in the plot other than to get killed by the villain, believe the writer.

if the books said the boom gun was a worthless piece of junk but still had it dealing 3d6x10 damage at nearly 2 miles of range, i'd ignore the absurd claim that the boom gun was a piece of junk as well. tolkeen had an absolutely ridiculous amount of ability to fight an assymetrical war. regular assymetrical war can be quite powerful already. add magic to the mix, and it just gets completely unfair.

Tolkeen could fight assymetrical warfare.
But I think you're taking that idea and RUNNING with it, like a lot of people do.
"Hey, Tolkeen could do THIS and THAT, and the CS would be powerless!!!"
Except that the CS has psychics, and unknown technology and defenses, and no, maybe they wouldn't be defenseless.
Just like KS could have used magic to save Tolkeen if he wanted to, the CS has plenty of resources that could be used to save them if KS wanted to.
And just like most of the magic that Tolkeen brought to bear on their side of the war, the CS's capabilities weren't fully disclosed before the war (or during, or after).

Asymmetrical warfare is cool and all, but it doesn't mean you can necessarily beat the odds.
Tolkeen had 1 million plus people, IIRC, including civilians and non-mages.
The CS had 2.4 million Dog Boys as of 102 PA.
Probably ~350,000 psi-stalkers.
Probably millions of SAMAS.
Probably millions of Grunts
Probably millions of other soldiers combined.
Plus Psi-Net.
Plus the Vanguard, even if they don't know it.
Plus control of the main currency on the continent, and the ability to hire all kinds of mercenaries.
Plus unspecified levels of technology.

Asymmetrical warfare can only do so much.

not necessarily. they wouldn't be able to hide amongst the populace the same way. but that doesn't mean they can't only take fights where they have the advantage, and disappear the rest of the time. they literally had the ability to teleport to escape tight spots.

When you say "they," who do you mean?
Dragons, some percentage of the time?
LLWs who happen to be on Ley Lines?
Other mages who happen to know the spell, and to have the PPE available?
Do the math.
Figure out roughly how many "they" you're talking about.

Then do the math; figure out roughly how many CS troops they might be up against.

they could hide *anywhere* and what is the CS gonna do to get to them, check the entire megaverse all at once?

Or use psychics to track them down.

one moment, there could be no enemies within a 500 mile radius, the next moment you're getting jumped.

That could be a really effective tactic.
It could also result in the teleporters getting ambushed, after the CS is warned by their precogs.

and not only that, they can pull troops from a nigh-inexhaustible supply. i mean, so long as they're willing to deal with demons, they can just conjure up a fresh batch of demons/entities/etc for any fight they need... a fairly low level shifter can control something like a dozen gargoyles with class abilities alone as i recall, let him also use spells to summon up some entities or worms of taut or whatever else and you can have each spellcaster creating an entirely fresh group of enemies for you to have to fight through every single day, and if you kill them all, he'll just make more tomorrow (in some cases, he wouldn't even need to create new ones... tectonic entities just need more piles of rocks... or of MDC wood created through magic).

Perhaps.
Or perhaps demons and summoned beings would get tired of being used as canon fodder, and there would be consequences for enslaving them into soldiery until they die.
Rifts isn't a video game. It's a role-playing game.
In role-playing games, it's not just "if you can do this once, you can spam it out all the time," there are often consequences for actions.
The beings in the universe aren't just robots--they're supposed to have minds of their own.
Whenever a person seeks to use a demon as a pawn, there are potential consequences, because demons have their own ambitions, goals, and allies.

spells like sustain could easily be used to make concerns about food meaningless, and spells like wall of defense could be used to make key production centres virtually unassailable by conventional means. with their earth warlocks, they could have produced a near-infinite supply of MDC materials.

Makes sense, assuming spell, caster, and PPE availability.

TW armour with impervious to energy could be distributed to make people immune to the weapons that a large portion of the attack force carries.

Sure.
Or it could not be, due to the general secretiveness and stinginess of mages.
Or it could be, and it could be countered by the CS handing out particle beams to all their troops (P-Beams do not harm Impervious to Energy characters in RAW, except for Invulnerable characters, but it is unknown if the ability to harm Invulnerable characters is part of RAI that includes other kinds of imperviousness to energy).
Or the CS could have developed as many new psychic powers and new technologies during the course of the CW series as Tolkeen developed new magics and magic items ("new" to players, not new in-game).
If Tolkeen gets a free Rifts Defense Against Missiles, then the CS could just as easily have a Technological Gizmo that bypasses any of Tolkeen's super spells.

there were so many ways that tolkeen could have used to try to tubrn the war into a huge mess that would be nearly impossible for the CS to actually win.

AND there were so many ways for the CS to have performed better than they did, so many ways they could have been smarter, better equipped, and so forth.
Hell, they have 1.6 million SAMAS apparently unused, and every Grunt can use that armor, but the CS didn't bother to give that surplus armor to their Grunts during the war.
NOBODY here is saying that the series is written well.
But don't pretend that it was only written poorly when it came to Tolkeen's efforts.

it certainly wasn't a guaranteed success. but when you add magic into the equation, and especially when only one side has access to it, it *really* changes the equation.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Tolkeen has magic. The CS has technology (and psionics).
There's really little to no difference, except for flavor.

now, because the author had already decided the outcome, in that sense, it was impossible. but the people in the setting had no way of knowing that, and for *them* to say it's impossible is just stupid.

I wasn't talking about people in the setting. I was talking about gamers reading the game books, quite a few of which were surprised and disappointed (apparently) when Tolkeen didn't win the war.

[Killer Cyborg]

Killer Cyborg: I actually agree with most of your Postzilla comment before (not going to quote it and make this post doubly huge). I think that while KS may have wanted Tolkeen to be a minor player but by dropping them into a 7 part series (1-6 War books and Aftermath) he went from what should have been, in my opinion, the low key N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God and instead made it G1-3 Against the Giants only to chase the rabbit to the D1-4 Descent series. I just don't think you can call something "minor" when it gets this kind of attention.

And this gets back to my earlier point about metaplot itself being part of the problem. There's a difference between an interactive medium and a passive one. Telling a story about the rise and fall of the Evil Empire is one thing; playing a game featuring an Evil Empire is a different matter entirely. Whether one views Tolkeen as a major player or just a minor dog to be kicked to establish the CS's Unambiguously Evil status doesn't matter, if you're forcing the PCs to be bit players in the scenario.

Eh.
Only kinda.

Look at historical games set in the real world.
If you're playing a WWII RPG, are your characters only bit players if the GM/game doesn't let you kill Hitler and stop the 3rd Reich?
(Or, conversely, if you're playing Axis troops, are your characters only bit players if the GM/game doesn't let your players save the Axis from defeat?)

When you say "the scenario," you seem to mean "in the war between nations," which seems a fairly hubristic level to assume that the PCs should be effective on.
Why can't The Scenario be one battle? Or a series of battles? Why does it have to be about the entirety of the war?

Like, if your PCs sweep & clear one dungeon of monsters, is that inconsequential? Is "the scenario" the context of all battles against evil everywhere?
Is it a failure on the part of the PCs if they don't manage to clear every dungeon everywhere, or if they don't manage to keep new dungeons from cropping up?

In most war-based RPGs, the (realistic) goal of the PCs is NOT to win the entire war.
It's to win a battle, or to minimize losses, or to capture an important plan or enemy, and so forth.
It's about the countless victories and losses that happen in the course of a war, NOT about the war itself per se.

In Savage Rifts, set in late P.A. 109, the Fall of Tolkeen is an established fact. This turns it from a source of player frustration into an object lesson for the PCs about the approach that will NOT work for the Tomorrow Legion. PCs may very well have played a role during the Siege, but that's written into their Background, not something they have to sit by passively through multiple game sessions while they haplessly try to affect events they can't ever hope to alter.

PCs never had to do that. Nobody forced anybody to play out a SoT campaign.
My group never did; we didn't like the books, so we changed, altered, and ignored most of it.
But I as a player could most certainly have had a blast playing a mage in the Tolkeen war. I as a player might know that my task was doomed, but my character wouldn't know it.
And sometimes a game or a battle isn't about surviving in any case--it's about doing everything you can before you die.
Remember, the very first RPG that KS created was The Mechanoids, a game in which the premise is that you're defending a planet that is facing an undefeatable enemy, and will eventually be over-run and devoured.
Why?
Because there's some seriously good role-playing that can happen in that kind of situation.
Games aren't always about winning.
Winning isn't always about surviving.
This isn't Candyland. It's not pass/fail. It's much more complex than that.
It's a role-playing game.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Or use psychics to track them down.

Really my only nitpick here. There is no psychic power we're presented with that makes this remotely feasible. All of the powers that detect or track magic have hillariously, ludicrously short ranges. In fact, given the abilities listed in the few magic-sensing classes the CS has avalable (dog boys, psi-stalkers, a few others) - even the way the CS supposedly implements detection wouldn't work a lot of times because the ranges involved are far too short.

I wasn't talking about people in the setting. I was talking about gamers reading the game books, quite a few of which were surprised and disappointed (apparently) when Tolkeen didn't win the war.

I didn't expect Tolkeen to win...

But i didnt expect the amount of Deus-Ex-Buttpull that was involved in the CS winning. Because A) it wasn't necessary and B) it was lame as all get out.

I'd have preferred no Holmes butt-pull at the end and the final siege being a long, grueling affair that lasted weeks to months, and gave lots of story avenues (desperate last stands, evacuating refugees through the combat zone, etc) and ended with a slightly more pyrhic (sp?) victory for the CS that visibly set them back on their heels a lot harder. Not crippled and suddenly weak, but with even the CS leadership going "Holy Crap, we get the snot beat out of us. We should really take some time to get our feet back under us 100% before trying that again.".

This would have made the nearly immediate dive into the Minion War at least remotely plausibly dangerous (as opposed to laughably and totally non-threatening on its face as presented in the books).

And i'd have preferred if a more sizable number of Tolkeen's citizens had gotten away, to perhaps found a new city out on say... the west coast? Or maybe even evacuated to a friendly dimension (in a campaign ive been on/off guest starring in, the GM had the UWW offer to simply let Tolkeen have a planet before the war started (which Tolkeen politely rejected on the "we arent leaving our home" principle), and then during the aftermath of the final Siege, had the UWW send in a few companies of Warlock Marines to get as many refugees as they could to an extraction Rift to take them to Alexandria in the Three Galaxies, which i thought was a neat touch, and was how my character (Wolfen TW, company armorer in the Warlock Marines was introduced to the PCs)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

But I as a player could most certainly have had a blast playing a mage in the Tolkeen war. I as a player might know that my task was doomed, but my character wouldn't know it.
And sometimes a game or a battle isn't about surviving in any case--it's about doing everything you can before you die.
Remember, the very first RPG that KS created was The Mechanoids, a game in which the premise is that you're defending a planet that is facing an undefeatable enemy, and will eventually be over-run and devoured.
Why?
Because there's some seriously good role-playing that can happen in that kind of situation.
Games aren't always about winning.
Winning isn't always about surviving.
This isn't Candyland. It's not pass/fail. It's much more complex than that.
It's a role-playing game.

To use a quote from Lois M. Bujold's excellent Vorkosigan Saga - one of the main character Miles Vorkosigan's most notable statements to his subordinates when it is pointed out that they will probably all die:

"Live or die... make your goal."

In this instance, he's planning it so that even IF they die, they still win. To give an example of what KC is talking about here.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Page 10 of HoH has the following "rules" for being a member of the CS:

1. No non-human can be trusted.
2. No Magic practitioner can be trusted.
3. Magic is evil, dangerous, and uncontrollable.
4. Magic attracts and creates monsters. Never accept it.
5. All non-humans, alien technology, practitioners of Magic, and Magic items are a threat to humanity. Do not be fooled. They must be rejected and destroyed. Purged from (what the CS calls) the domain of man.

The "Night of Forgiveness" purged the mages and dbees from the Chi-Town 'Burbs as well. There are no longer dbees in the burbs.

You know, this doesn't really bother me, as the 'Burbs never made one iota of sense.

So... to even GET to the burbs, you have to cross hundreds, sometimes up to a thousand, miles of CS claimed territory. Where, if you are a D-Bee and you are caught by a patrol, you will be gunned down on sight, no questions asked. Blam Blam Blam. Dead. Same if you're a magic user and caught out by being stupid or the patrol having Dog Boys and/or Psi-stalkers (which most wilderness and border patrols do). No questions, dead, killed on sight. Same if you're carrying or using certain gear. (NE weapons and gear? Shoot on sight.).

The chances of you making it across this territory to the Burbs seems ludicrously low (but is still possible..) in the first place...

and then we're expected to believe that once you get to the Burbs, its all OK all of a sudden? The CS goes from "if we catch you anywhere near our territory well gun you down without a word, die you D-bee scum" to "Oh, you're living in the shanty towns outside our big cities. So many of you that a sizable percentage of the populations of these places are D-bees that are obviously not human. Well, as long as you behave.. cool. Unless we feel like getting frisky. But mostly... cool."

It NEVER made sense. Ever.

[HWalsh]

I am just flabbergasted that so few don't see how SoT closed more avenues than it opened.

Would it have been so bad for the setting if the Campaign of Unity was stopped right then and there by Tolkeen? Would it have been so bad if the CS had to limp away, suddenly realizing that they were vulnerable? The potential political upheaval in the CS. The uncertainty that they had just suffered a defeat, an honest-to-goodness defeat at the hands of what they thought was an inferior enemy.

All of a sudden... BLAM... Tolkeen is obliterated in the minion war.

The enemy that stood against and beat the CS, the only enemy so far that dealt the CS a bloody nose and stood triumphant... Is wiped out by the minions...

Suddenly... Suddenly we have a Minion War that is dangerous. The guys that beat the CS got beaten. What is the CS going to do? They now fight an even greater enemy and they are weakened and reeling. The CS can't keep going as they are... Desperation steps in... The CS turns in its hour of need to magic.

[Axelmania]

the references to victim blaming come from the idiotic statement that tolkeen should have just left and it's their own fault for not leaving that they got killed

If you opt to stay within area claimed by a mad king who is amassing a demon army, and know he is being attacked by humans with a ruthless history regarding shapeshifters, it's your risk to take, and not their fault.

which is like saying that if a criminal with a gun decides to rob your house, you should just abandon your house and let the criminal steal whatever he wants, otherwise you're to blame for anything the criminal does.

Except it's not actually your house. A closer analogy would be a gun-wielding criminal breaks into a house and kills the owner, and you follow him and live in the house with him, and decide to stay in the house when the owner's gun-wielding kid gets home to claim his inheritance.

there's a fairly significant difference between
"building up for a fight to protect your home while also trying to prevent the fight from ever happening and not starting the fight so that you have the advantage of surprise and being able to pick a moment of relative strength for yourself"
and
"building up for a fight that you are threatening to bring to someone else, so that you can take their stuff and kill everyone there, then starting that fight the moment you're ready"

With the first part in which I figure you mean this is Tolkeen, it is possible to build up defenses without building up things which can be used offensively. Summoning demons, for example, who could be sent to attack innocent human towns in Minnesota (or the Chi-Town burbs) is much more alarming to the CS than simply building a series of walls and towers with mini-missiles on them to shoot down LRMs.

As for the second part, I don't recall anything about the CS taking their stuff. The land which the CS needs to occupy is traditionally humanity's, not dragons and those who sell out the common human interest so they can be co-lords with dragons.

tolkeen pretty clearly didn't want the fight, but were ready to fight if it became necessary to protect themselves.

It wasn't necessary, because leaving would have removed the necessity. Creed was clearly spoiling for a fight.

the CS wanted the fight from the very beginning and refused to even consider any options other than starting that fight once they were ready.

Incorrect, the CS wanted the land and to neutralize a growing nearby threat. Fleeing would have removed the reasons.

It is Tolkeen who refused to consider other options, since they abandoned negotiations. It is also Tolkeen who started the fighting, by confronting CS forces and preventing their maneuvering in Minnesota on multiple occasions, despite having no rightful claim to that land and not curbing the Xiticix threat as the CS would have done.

I was asked for book-and-page references for the notion that the CS had a formal policy of genocide. I direct the curious to page 13 of Coalition Overkill

Their opponents? A disease — no, a plague. A plague that needs to be wiped off the face of the Earth. The fact that this "plague" happens to be sentient beings is said only to make the war all the more tragic. However, that last sentiment is part of the "official" position to justify CS aggression and soften the Coalition's open campaign of genocide.

So there you have it in black-and-white--the High Command absolutely DOES seek to commit genocide against any non-humans on Earth,

I would like if you or someone could link to the post where you were asked this so we can clarify who asked you, and what you had originally said.

It is well known that the CS has a policy of genocide against CERTAIN species. The most notable being the Xiticix, who Lazlo also has a policy of genocide against.

You are making the claim here that they are genocidal against ANY non-humans.

I do not believe Overkill13 supports that.

The Coalition does have an open campaign of genocide, but I don't see anything here specifying that it is against any non-humans.

Dog Boys are non-humans, for example. So even if it said "the CS has an open policy against non-humans" it would clearly have to mean SOME non-humans, as they are not genocidal against Dog Boys.

You must find a quote saying against ALL non-humans.

Edit to add another quote, from page 14:

At the Tolkeen front, nothing short of complete genocide is acceptable to the invading Coalition Army. This has led to extreme overkill, where CS troops fight like men possessed, towns and cities are turned into rubble, farms torched and the enemy slaughtered — even when they try to surrender or flee. Retreating enemy forces are hunted and put down like mad dogs. Worse, there is no distinction made between warrior and innocent, all nonhumans and practitioners of magic are gunned down, including women and children. Few prisoners are taken unless they are needed for interrogation, extortion, a trap, or other sinister purpose. However torture is frowned upon. Not for any humanitarian reason, but because it keeps a deadly and potentially dangerous individual alive longer than necessary.

Folks who want to deny the genocidal aspect are basically ignoring the entire book.

Nope, just reading the details. Your first sentence here from Overkill14 doesn't actually specify the complete genocide of WHOM. It can't apply to EVERYONE because that would include genocide of themselves. This could simply mean complete genocide of supernatural beings like the Daemonix or Dragons, which is a perfectly reasonable precaution, as both are perfectly capable of fleeing if they don't want to fight.

Yes the ENEMY is slaughtered, even if they run (because fleeing enemies can regroup and attack you again).

The distinction between warrior and innocent is that a warrior is someone who is presently fighting, and an innocent is someone they haven't witnessed fighting.

Just because someone is subjectively innocent of any presently witnessed crime doesn't mean they are actually innocent or not a threat to you. A fleeing "innocent" dragon is still perfectly capable of morphing into a bunny and coming back later and eating you.

"Few prisoners are taken" proves that not everyone is being killed. They "gun down" nonhumans and practitioners of magic, sure, but that doesn't mean they kill them. STUNGUNS.

Edit again: And More, page 15:

Not all Coalition soldiers are combat-numbed zombies or mad dog-killers bent on genocide. Some (at least 25-30%) will show mercy and compassion to the enemy whenever it is reasonable, and they think they can get away with it. This may be something as little as giving a D-Bee prisoner (or sorcerer) a blanket, cup of water, food or medical treatment, to showing a captive some measure of respect and/or kindness, refraining from torture and even letting obviously innocent people go (particularly women and children). Such kindness is often done in secret, when the majority who have (at least temporarily) lost their humanity are not looking.

So 70-75% of the army IS bent on genocide and annihilation.

Yes, genocide and annihilation of the Daemonix. It doesn't say they're bent on genocide against ALL NON-HUMANS. That's the rub here.

I'm sure a significant portion of Lazlo soldiers are bent on genocide and annihilation of the Xiticix. There's nothing wrong with being bent on genocide against a threatening species.

Same page goes on to state that those 'good guy' CS troops can face anything from official reprimands and unofficial beatings all the way up to state-sanctioned execution after a trial (or summary execution in the field, possibly with the option of doing it themselves if they want their 'crime' [letting an innocent D-bee child or other non-combatant escape] to be covered up).

So? It's a false dichotomy to suggest there are only 2 options: kill them or let them escape. You can prevent a D-Bee's escape and gun them down with a stun gun for questioning without killing them. I think Lone Star also had some nice net guns.

Escape can also be prevented if the D-Bees surrender to CS authorities.

What should the CS do, let them run off and warn nearby guerrillas to ambush the platoon?

I have always felt that the CS was genocidal (and basically Rifts version of Nazis) and your fact checking confirmed that for me

The CS and Lazlo are both genocidal groups. That has never been disputed.

The question here is who they are genocidal toward.

Both are explicitly genocidal towards Xiticix. The CS are also genocidal towards 2 known species in WB30, one eats everything in site and another likes to pull pins off grenades for fun, both are clearly dangerous to human survival. That WB30 goes out of its way to discuss CS genocide towards only 2 species while not mentioning it for all the others is HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS, no? Almost as if the CS isn't genocidal towards those other species.

RE: Genocide - It is also directly stated that the Coalition has made clear in word and deed that it will be a war of genocide on page 7 of Sedition (KS's intro to the book).

Clearly there has to be some genocide, the CS can't really afford to take the demons Tolkeen summons alive. Dragons are pretty much too dangerous to capture too.

The CS having a policy of genocide still doesn't clarify which species the genocide is for.

As dreicunan has pointed out, these policies of genocide are also localized to a specific campaign and do not reflect the country's overall policies outside of wartime situations.

For example: I am genocidal to mice in my garage and lay traps to kill them, but I am not genocidal to mice in my backyard and do not lay traps there, I even chase them off so my dogs don't eat them.

the CS is clearly listed as being genocidal against all those target groups without any kind of 'but only the D-bees and mages of Tolkeen' qualifier.
..
the metaplot is quite clear that the CS's policy of genocide is against all non-humans and mages
..
it's written in the books that they're out to exterminate all non-humans and mages

WHERE?

nothing about phrases like "combat-numbed zombies" or "mad dog killers" would suggest that they are in any way likely to carry this attitude towards other d-bees, mages, psychics, etc. nope.

You seem to rely on the false dichotomy that anyone who is not B must be A
A) combat-numbed zombies or mad dog-killers bent on genocide
B) will show mercy and compassion to the enemy whenever it is reasonable

Does not showing compassion/mercy during "reasonable" situations necessarily mean someone is bent on genocide or combat-numbed?

I'll use myself as an example: even though I could reasonably smile at a homeless person, I do NOT show that compassion. I do my best to ignore them. I view showing compassion as being a weakness. and do not want to do that on the streets where it might invite someone to approach me.

This might make me all kinds of bad things, but it is not because I am combat-numbed or because I am bent on genocide.

So based on this, I reject Freemage's "70-75% of the army IS bent on genocide and annihilation" proposal, and your support of it.

Also worth noting that this can also be read "mad dog killers bent on genocide" or "combat-numbed zombies".

It doesn't necessarily mean that if they are not mad-dog killers that they must be "combat-numbed zombies bent on genocide".

Being a combat-numbed zombie is an entirely different thing than being genocidal.

I agree with those who say they crossed the Moral Event Horizon by summoning demons (and not even in a manner that controlled them, meaning that the demons were--and continue to be--free to run amok doing exactly what you would expect demons to do).

Even the means of controlling demons lack reliability. If a mage is killed they are free to stay wreaking havok uninhibited. Or even if the mage falls asleep and forgets to send them back in time (summon lesser beings) or if they win a contest of wills (Summoners and RUE Shifters' new similar ability)

I'd say that the CS currently isn't being actively genocidal (though I'm a book or three behind current events), but they were actively genocidal with Tolkeen, and they will most likely be actively genocidal against the next magic place that they invade/attack.

Actively genocidal against what element though? Are we sure it was the entire thing or just the demon/dragon elements?

I can, for example, be genocidal during a war against Nxla by killing EVERY single Xombie I come across, but not be genocidal towards Harvesters.

Here is perhaps the single most important part of this section:
by creating false homes.

I bet Tolkeen did a lot of that, sold you land but the house was just an illusion, as you soon discovered on the first rainfall.

I've never really considered before if there was a "main character" in the Coalition Wars series, but if there is, I'm not sure that it's Tolkeen. It might well be the Coalition.

I'm going to hedge my bets on the Cyber-Knights. They were probably more affected by this than the CS was.

In HOH it says that they still totally intend on genocide.

Page/quote? To whom?

Pg 20 mentions "If the only options are peace and genocide, the Coalition has chosen genocide." but that's only conditional genocide when peace is the only other option, and isn't explicitly against all D-Bees, we just know it's directed to at least some of them.

As SoT said - 30% were good at the time SoT started. Those good ones didn't survive. They changed, were executed, or were thrown in prison.

Now 5% are good, 30% are selfish, 65% are evil.

This sounds interesting, I would like to read where it talks about this. Where?

The "Night of Forgiveness" purged the mages and dbees from the Chi-Town 'Burbs as well.
There are no longer dbees in the burbs.

I'm checking out page 11-12 of HOH right now, where does it say there are no longer ANY there?

11 says overnight it became a very dangerous place for d-bees, mages and freethinkers (I guess previously it was just dangerous, but not VERY) and that "D-Bees and practitioners of magic fall under brutal attack" and "all things nonhuman and magical seem tainted, dirty, ugly, and need to be purged".

Sure they all NEED to be purged, but are all of them actually purged?

12 says "Countless innocent D-Bees are strung up and hanged until dead. Others are murdered in their own beds." then "D-Bees who would have fought alongside their human neighbors against the demon hordes are slaughtered by the thousands".

So we know at least 2000 D-Bees were killed, but do we know how many there were to begin with?

Are we sure none managed to hide and avoid some of this?

I could see Auto-Gs and maybe the odd Pleasurer or Changeling managing to avoid this. Or maybe human D-Bees from other realities who can't be discerned from non-human D-Bees.

[eliakon]

Page 10 of HoH has the following "rules" for being a member of the CS:

1. No non-human can be trusted.
2. No Magic practitioner can be trusted.
3. Magic is evil, dangerous, and uncontrollable.
4. Magic attracts and creates monsters. Never accept it.
5. All non-humans, alien technology, practitioners of Magic, and Magic items are a threat to humanity. Do not be fooled. They must be rejected and destroyed. Purged from (what the CS calls) the domain of man.

The "Night of Forgiveness" purged the mages and dbees from the Chi-Town 'Burbs as well. There are no longer dbees in the burbs.

So the Nazi expys have now had their Kristallnacht.
And their first major wars
And their first death camps
...
Nope, no possible bad stuff here.

[dreicunan]

I am just flabbergasted that so few don't see how SoT closed more avenues than it opened.

Would it have been so bad for the setting if the Campaign of Unity was stopped right then and there by Tolkeen? Would it have been so bad if the CS had to limp away, suddenly realizing that they were vulnerable? The potential political upheaval in the CS. The uncertainty that they had just suffered a defeat, an honest-to-goodness defeat at the hands of what they thought was an inferior enemy.

All of a sudden... BLAM... Tolkeen is obliterated in the minion war.

The enemy that stood against and beat the CS, the only enemy so far that dealt the CS a bloody nose and stood triumphant... Is wiped out by the minions...

Suddenly... Suddenly we have a Minion War that is dangerous. The guys that beat the CS got beaten. What is the CS going to do? They now fight an even greater enemy and they are weakened and reeling. The CS can't keep going as they are... Desperation steps in... The CS turns in its hour of need to magic.

The minion war could have been dangerous if they just wrote it to be more dangerous. Besides, Tolkeen had already allied with Demons. How do we know that as a kingdom Tolkeen wouldn't have done so again. The only avenues that SoT closed were further avenues with Tolkeen as a functioning kingdom. The Coalition can still get shaken and end up needing to turn to magic; it all depends on what Kevin S decides to do.

However, nothing is stopping you from running that storyline in your own games! It does sound interesting, but I don't see it as being inherently more interesting than the canon end result.

[Axelmania]

So the Nazi expys have now had their Kristallnacht.
And their first major wars
And their first death camps
...
Nope, no possible bad stuff here.

As if that is the only notable "night".

I was thinking the CS were like WWE and this is "Night of Champions".

Re your second point: being involved in 2 major wars is grounds for nazi comparison? I guess that means... pretty much every major country on Earth?

Death camps: well, prisoners die in prisoner camps sometimes.

[Greepnak]

It doesn't do anybody any good to debate over what's in the dictionary or make things personal attacks on eachother's character, guys.

The Federation of Magic book's first section explains it well, I think.

FoM book actually says the magic kingdoms were pretty well established before the CS even got started, and when it was incorporated the CS initially wanted to include all human kingdoms including the magic ones. At that time Dunscon Senior was a good dude, but he got drunk on his ego and started to go bad. When the CS proposed numerous demands for membership regarding the REGULATION of magic (no human sacrifice etc) Dunscon flipped his lid because he felt it was an insult.

The book ultimately proposes that the problem with magic in this setting is the level to which it empowers the wielder without any kind of social or moral restraint and says that if the whole Prosek vs Dunscon thing wasn't so personal (such as the wife torture) that history could be differrent today.

The CS does try to understand magic from a SCIENTIFIC perspective via the RCSG and such, but the faith requirement of practiced magic makes it hard to study via the scientific method.
"I don't know why exactly doing this with my fingers and saying three words in pseudo latin make a firebolt, it just does and thats all I need"

The Japan book lays out the alternative pretty well with the skeptical modern society getting along with the spiritual (and shockingly less tolerant by extension) side of the Japanese with the result probably being a techno-wizardry fusion based society in the future.

Alistair needs to stop putting the emperor's sons into soul gems and kidnapping his wife for torture while he supports making juicer murder-zombies. Hate cannot drive out hate. Thats why the Cyberknights are held up in the fluff as good examples that make hardliners take a step back.

[HWalsh]

It doesn't do anybody any good to debate over what's in the dictionary or make things personal attacks on eachother's character, guys.

The Federation of Magic book's first section explains it well, I think.

FoM book actually says the magic kingdoms were pretty well established before the CS even got started, and when it was incorporated the CS initially wanted to include all human kingdoms including the magic ones. At that time Dunscon Senior was a good dude, but he got drunk on his ego and started to go bad. When the CS proposed numerous demands for membership regarding the REGULATION of magic (no human sacrifice etc) Dunscon flipped his lid because he felt it was an insult.

The book ultimately proposes that the problem with magic in this setting is the level to which it empowers the wielder without any kind of social or moral restraint and says that if the whole Prosek vs Dunscon thing wasn't so personal (such as the wife torture) that history could be differrent today.

The CS does try to understand magic from a SCIENTIFIC perspective via the RCSG and such, but the faith requirement of practiced magic makes it hard to study via the scientific method.
"I don't know why exactly doing this with my fingers and saying three words in pseudo latin make a firebolt, it just does and thats all I need"

The Japan book lays out the alternative pretty well with the skeptical modern society getting along with the spiritual (and shockingly less tolerant by extension) side of the Japanese with the result probably being a techno-wizardry fusion based society in the future.

Alistair needs to stop putting the emperor's sons into soul gems and kidnapping his wife for torture while he supports making juicer murder-zombies. Hate cannot drive out hate. Thats why the Cyberknights are held up in the fluff as good examples that make hardliners take a step back.

I was sort of with you until the end there, where you put the complete blame onto Alistair.

Alistair needs to stop putting the emperor's sons into soul gems, kidnapping his wife, and making murder zombies... Yes... Does he have a reason? Yes. As far as he knows Prosek killed his father. That made things personal. Should the CS have stepped off of their requirements? Absolutely.

However there seems to be a bit of... Pro CS spin on the FoM vs CS in your post... So let's get a more accurate account of events.

1. The CS initially excluded the FoM, and at that time the FoM wasn't evil.

The CS didn't just give a few little rules and ask that he stopped with human sacrifice and demon summoning... There were 134 rules the CS gave him...

Literally the CS created a club, didn't invite one of the most prominent kingdoms, then called them out, under false pretenses, then proceeded to hand them a list of 134 demands.

Yeah... Dunscon was insulted, any head of state would be insulted. How would the CS handle it if they were invited to a meeting of human kingdoms and they showed up and were handed a list of 134 items that they were expected to abide by, not as a member, but because they figured they could make them do that. On top of that Dunscon didn't threaten them... He told them outright they had nothing to fear from him, then he left.

That is the most reasonable thing I have ever seen a head of state pull in a similar circumstance. Heck, if he were the CS he would have murdered them all and sent them home in body bags.

5 years later the FoM began to make plans to conquer North America. Which... Eh... Not exactly good, but the CS also has this Campaign of Unity that is the same thing... Oh right and Dunscon doesn't want to genocide anyone.

The FoM did not attack the CS, and I wish they had then, because they might have killed it before it became the monster that lives today. Hindsight is 20/20 after all.

There was an attack on Chi-Town, too late, in 12 P.A.

In retaliation the CS declared that because ONE kingdom (really one city) had attacked them, then all magic users had to die and began the campaign of blood.

So... In closing... If you want to really explain why the CS and FoM are at war it is because Joseph Prosek started it off by trying to issue a ludicrous 134 demands to a neighboring city while not even offering them a seat at the table. Had they actually spoken to them instead of basically threatening them. Instead of belittling their way of life... Rifts North America might be a very different place.

[Killer Cyborg]

I am just flabbergasted that so few don't see how SoT closed more avenues than it opened.

Would it have been so bad for the setting if the Campaign of Unity was stopped right then and there by Tolkeen? Would it have been so bad if the CS had to limp away, suddenly realizing that they were vulnerable?

Would it have been so bad if Alderaan had survived the attack, and crippled or destroyed the Deathstar?
Maybe, maybe not... but it would have been an entirely different movie (and series of movies).

The potential political upheaval in the CS. The uncertainty that they had just suffered a defeat, an honest-to-goodness defeat at the hands of what they thought was an inferior enemy.

Like if Ray Jackson had beaten Chong Li, and Frank Dux ended up fighting somebody else.
Or if Sarah Connor's roommate had kicked the crap out of the Terminator, and sent it limping off for repairs.
Or if Uncle Owen had killed those Stormtroopers.
Or if Uncle Ben had beaten up the robber, and Peter Parker could just hang out being chill instead of stepping up to become a hero.
Or if Bruce Wayne's parents had kicked Joe Chill's butt.
Or if Rocky's trainer had beaten the tar out of Clubber Lang.
Or if Max Rockatansky's wife and kid had stopped the Acolytes, and the movie was called "Rather Pleasant Max."

All of a sudden... BLAM... Tolkeen is obliterated in the minion war.

Eh. The result would be the same: infinite fan outrage, because Tolkeen has magic, and they're the good guys, and they should beat any bad guys who attack them, etc. etc. etc.

The enemy that stood against and beat the CS, the only enemy so far that dealt the CS a bloody nose and stood triumphant... Is wiped out by the minions...

Suddenly... Suddenly we have a Minion War that is dangerous. The guys that beat the CS got beaten. What is the CS going to do? They now fight an even greater enemy and they are weakened and reeling. The CS can't keep going as they are... Desperation steps in... The CS turns in its hour of need to magic.

Nope.
I like it pretty well the way it is. The Coalition simply works better as a credible Evil Empire who can actually wage a war without getting their butts completely handed to them.
As it is, they've lost some credibility simply by spending so much time and effort to take out one little kingdom.

[boring7]

Page 10 of HoH has the following "rules" for being a member of the CS:

1. No non-human can be trusted.
2. No Magic practitioner can be trusted.
3. Magic is evil, dangerous, and uncontrollable.
4. Magic attracts and creates monsters. Never accept it.
5. All non-humans, alien technology, practitioners of Magic, and Magic items are a threat to humanity. Do not be fooled. They must be rejected and destroyed. Purged from (what the CS calls) the domain of man.

The "Night of Forgiveness" purged the mages and dbees from the Chi-Town 'Burbs as well. There are no longer dbees in the burbs.

You know, this doesn't really bother me, as the 'Burbs never made one iota of sense.

So... to even GET to the burbs, you have to cross hundreds, sometimes up to a thousand, miles of CS claimed territory. Where, if you are a D-Bee and you are caught by a patrol, you will be gunned down on sight, no questions asked. Blam Blam Blam. Dead. Same if you're a magic user and caught out by being stupid or the patrol having Dog Boys and/or Psi-stalkers (which most wilderness and border patrols do). No questions, dead, killed on sight. Same if you're carrying or using certain gear. (NE weapons and gear? Shoot on sight.).

The chances of you making it across this territory to the Burbs seems ludicrously low (but is still possible..) in the first place...

and then we're expected to believe that once you get to the Burbs, its all OK all of a sudden? The CS goes from "if we catch you anywhere near our territory well gun you down without a word, die you D-bee scum" to "Oh, you're living in the shanty towns outside our big cities. So many of you that a sizable percentage of the populations of these places are D-bees that are obviously not human. Well, as long as you behave.. cool. Unless we feel like getting frisky. But mostly... cool."

It NEVER made sense. Ever.

Yeah, you're right.

I chalk it up to bad writing, a desire to have victims at hand, and a misunderstanding of history. Someone on the writing team is aware that it took a long time to actually find, collect, and purge every single Jew in Germany (and they failed) and thinks that makes Dbees in the 'burbs 'work' as a plot element. They also (once again) have that schizoid desire to have multiple set pieces that don't go together.
-the 'burbs are dangerous but safer than the wildnerness.
-the burbs are ghettos like Warsaw.
-the CS is coldly methodical and slaughters like robots seeking 100% extermination.
-the CS is sloppy and murderous and only kills when they feel like it with no overarching plan of genocide.
-the CS is Germany in 1933, the CS is Germany in 1943.
-___ years ago they purged everything in event X.
-this new event is happening, so there are more things to purge.

It's like how the rules of alignment in the beginning of the book state certain things CANNOT be done by the range of nicer alignments, yet the CS grunts who commit those acts are still "good" but misguided.

Actually, a question for HWalsh

The "Night of Forgiveness" purged the mages and dbees from the Chi-Town 'Burbs as well. There are no longer dbees in the burbs[/b].

I don't recall, was that explicitly stated in HoH? I ask because I honestly expect there to be Dbees in the burbs AFTER the Minion War because Status Quo is God. If (j/k lol, WHEN) the plot demands Illinois Nazis have victims at hand, I suspect they will.

[Killer Cyborg]

Or use psychics to track them down.

Really my only nitpick here. There is no psychic power we're presented with that makes this remotely feasible. All of the powers that detect or track magic have hillariously, ludicrously short ranges. In fact, given the abilities listed in the few magic-sensing classes the CS has avalable (dog boys, psi-stalkers, a few others) - even the way the CS supposedly implements detection wouldn't work a lot of times because the ranges involved are far too short.

What's the range on Clairvoyance? Object Read? On using Telepathy on the terrorists friends/allies/family?
On astral projection scouting? On communing with spirits to gather intel? On Remote Viewing?
There are a lot of ways to track and/or find people.

I wasn't talking about people in the setting. I was talking about gamers reading the game books, quite a few of which were surprised and disappointed (apparently) when Tolkeen didn't win the war.

I didn't expect Tolkeen to win...

But i didnt expect the amount of Deus-Ex-Buttpull that was involved in the CS winning. Because A) it wasn't necessary and B) it was lame as all get out. [/quote]

I agree that the series was poorly written, and that there was a lot of crappy writing for both sides.

I'd have preferred no Holmes butt-pull at the end and the final siege being a long, grueling affair that lasted weeks to months, and gave lots of story avenues (desperate last stands, evacuating refugees through the combat zone, etc) and ended with a slightly more pyrhic (sp?) victory for the CS that visibly set them back on their heels a lot harder. Not crippled and suddenly weak, but with even the CS leadership going "Holy Crap, we get the snot beat out of us. We should really take some time to get our feet back under us 100% before trying that again.".

I'd have preferred one book (if that) that summed up the war, something with enough information on key battles, and enough maps, for people to make their own adventures/campaigns, but that wouldn't try to play with reader suspense about who's going to win... because it'd be a done-deal in one book.

Or maybe even evacuated to a friendly dimension (in a campaign ive been on/off guest starring in, the GM had the UWW offer to simply let Tolkeen have a planet before the war started (which Tolkeen politely rejected on the "we arent leaving our home" principle), and then during the aftermath of the final Siege, had the UWW send in a few companies of Warlock Marines to get as many refugees as they could to an extraction Rift to take them to Alexandria in the Three Galaxies, which i thought was a neat touch, and was how my character (Wolfen TW, company armorer in the Warlock Marines was introduced to the PCs)

One of THE most poorly addressed aspects of the Rifts setting is dimensional travel.
Like, if I was a Shifter (or any other mage/being who could travel between dimensions), I would either leave Rifts Earth immediately for a more pleasant world, OR I'd make money coyote-ing anybody and everybody who wanted off the plant over to some safer place.
Not only should more Tolkeenites have left Rifts Earth, more of everybody should have left Rifts Earth.
Even the CS should be looking for a technological or psychic way to move to a world that isn't compromised.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Or use psychics to track them down.

Really my only nitpick here. There is no psychic power we're presented with that makes this remotely feasible. All of the powers that detect or track magic have hillariously, ludicrously short ranges. In fact, given the abilities listed in the few magic-sensing classes the CS has avalable (dog boys, psi-stalkers, a few others) - even the way the CS supposedly implements detection wouldn't work a lot of times because the ranges involved are far too short.

What's the range on Clairvoyance? Object Read? On using Telepathy on the terrorists friends/allies/family?
On astral projection scouting? On communing with spirits to gather intel? On Remote Viewing?
There are a lot of ways to track and/or find people.

I think the reason i discount those (other than telepathy on known compatriots) is because the descriptions are vague and leave too much room for individual GM interpretation. We cant have a solid argument on wether those will work because we have no firm rule on what they ALWAYS provide or do. About the best we can do is have a discussion about how we would run them in our games or what we think they do, but there's nothing concrete for us to base a real discussion on.

For instance, a lot of people fall back on the "all dem precogs", and ill fall back on the argument "haven't helped one iota or predicted a single mass danger in hundreds of years yet (other than maybe the Xits)" as to why those abilities simply do NOT work that way (until some later butt-pull by Kevin retcons that they do).

One of THE most poorly addressed aspects of the Rifts setting is dimensional travel.
Like, if I was a Shifter (or any other mage/being who could travel between dimensions), I would either leave Rifts Earth immediately for a more pleasant world, OR I'd make money coyote-ing anybody and everybody who wanted off the plant over to some safer place.
Not only should more Tolkeenites have left Rifts Earth, more of everybody should have left Rifts Earth.
Even the CS should be looking for a technological or psychic way to move to a world that isn't compromised.

Yeah, it's also one of the reasons that the "starve them out" strategy should just never work on a major magic using nation. Surround Lazlo and cut off access to the farms? Whatever, ill be buying mass shipments of food for dirt cheap in Center on Phase World in an hour.

[Killer Cyborg]

Or use psychics to track them down.

Really my only nitpick here. There is no psychic power we're presented with that makes this remotely feasible. All of the powers that detect or track magic have hillariously, ludicrously short ranges. In fact, given the abilities listed in the few magic-sensing classes the CS has avalable (dog boys, psi-stalkers, a few others) - even the way the CS supposedly implements detection wouldn't work a lot of times because the ranges involved are far too short.

What's the range on Clairvoyance? Object Read? On using Telepathy on the terrorists friends/allies/family?
On astral projection scouting? On communing with spirits to gather intel? On Remote Viewing?
There are a lot of ways to track and/or find people.

I think the reason i discount those (other than telepathy on known compatriots) is because the descriptions are vague and leave too much room for individual GM interpretation. We cant have a solid argument on wether those will work because we have no firm rule on what they ALWAYS provide or do. About the best we can do is have a discussion about how we would run them in our games or what we think they do, but there's nothing concrete for us to base a real discussion on.

For instance, a lot of people fall back on the "all dem precogs", and ill fall back on the argument "haven't helped one iota or predicted a single mass danger in hundreds of years yet (other than maybe the Xits)" as to why those abilities simply do NOT work that way (until some later butt-pull by Kevin retcons that they do).

One of THE most poorly addressed aspects of the Rifts setting is dimensional travel.
Like, if I was a Shifter (or any other mage/being who could travel between dimensions), I would either leave Rifts Earth immediately for a more pleasant world, OR I'd make money coyote-ing anybody and everybody who wanted off the plant over to some safer place.
Not only should more Tolkeenites have left Rifts Earth, more of everybody should have left Rifts Earth.
Even the CS should be looking for a technological or psychic way to move to a world that isn't compromised.

Yeah, it's also one of the reasons that the "starve them out" strategy should just never work on a major magic using nation. Surround Lazlo and cut off access to the farms? Whatever, ill be buying mass shipments of food for dirt cheap in Center on Phase World in an hour.

Remember, the conversation here is about the claim that Tolkeen should necessarily have won, because of their magic.
My goal is not to prove that they necessarily should have lost (though that is my view), but rather to prove that no, they should not have necessarily won.
IF palladium had focused more on asymmetric warfare, teleportation and such, the writers might not have chosen to grant key information to CS psychics, but it would be perfectly fair and within the rules for them to do so.
So any and every plan that could potentially be thwarted by such common abilities are NOWHERE near enough of a sure thing to make reasonable claims that they WOULD necessarily work.

[Shark_Force]

the CS does not have technology anywhere remotely close to "sufficiently advanced" to be indistinguishable from magic. pretty much everything they have is just taking what we have today, and making it more extreme. their lasers are more destructive, their armour is tougher, their robots are more mobile, their cybernetics/bionics interface better, their ability to store energy is better, their AI is... well, it's better, but not by that much. and they don't even really have superior tech in a lot of fields. their communications and sensor technology are nothing special at all. but nothing they do is anywhere near indistinguishable from magic.

and again, prosek doesn't need to destroy tolkeen in order to declare a victory. his people are super gullible. all he needs is something that can be made to appear to be a victory, and honestly, he may not even need that with how ready the CS population are to swallow blatant lies without even the most basic of fact-checking taking place.

furthermore, if he gets into a long, drawn-out, expensive war that is accomplishing nothing, sooner or later someone else in power is gonna put to a stop to it (even if only because they want to seize control themselves and they see an opportunity) and blame him for weakening the CS and pursuing a pointless costly war. because seriously, what is there in tolkeen that couldn't be had more readily in a number of other places, other than a pointless war?

and lastly, with some of the tricks magic can pull, tolkeen could potentially get a casualty ratio massively in their favour. no, they aren't going to kill off every CS soldier by limiting their engagements to only the ones they can start without suffering significant losses, even if that means only using the smaller number of troops they can transport with teleportation. but that isn't their goal. they're not targeting the lives of the CS soldiers, they're targeting their morale.

(and as to the CS using their supposed psychic network of clairvoyants, first of all we have no solid evidence that anything remotely like that is in place - the greatest threats to the world, using in-depth research gathered from every psychic that lazlo could reach, gave a vague description of the threats involved, and in some cases a very rough location, but often not even that, so it doesn't exactly sound much like minority-report levels of information are gained. secondly, if that even works, the CS has to split their resources between every group of soldiers they have, while tolkeen only needs to use theirs on the attacks they actually are planning... so yeah, the CS has more total psychics, but they're trying to check in on an absurdly larger number of possible engagements. but seriously, if this system even worked at all, the CS would never get ambushed, and yet, they do. just like everyone else in the setting, actually, which makes it even less believable that there's this network of psychics divining every threat to anything important).

tolkeen simply had a lot of levers to pull in this kind of fight than the CS did not, and many of those levers could have been pretty effective at completely neutralizing the options the CS had (and again, the CS does not have the "sufficiently advanced technology" necessary to just cancel it all out).

[Killer Cyborg]

the CS does not have technology anywhere remotely close to "sufficiently advanced" to be indistinguishable from magic.

Sure.
So... how's a plasma rifle work?
Oh, and their nuclear-powered armor and giant robots...?

pretty much everything they have is just taking what we have today, and making it more extreme. their lasers are more destructive, their armour is tougher, their robots are more mobile, their cybernetics/bionics interface better, their ability to store energy is better, their AI is... well, it's better, but not by that much. and they don't even really have superior tech in a lot of fields. their communications and sensor technology are nothing special at all. but nothing they do is anywhere near indistinguishable from magic.

CS Psi-Gauntlet.
MOM implants.
Juicers.
Bionics in general.
Vibro-blades.
Laser Bows.

and lastly, with some of the tricks magic can pull, tolkeen could potentially get a casualty ratio massively in their favour. no, they aren't going to kill off every CS soldier by limiting their engagements to only the ones they can start without suffering significant losses, even if that means only using the smaller number of troops they can transport with teleportation. but that isn't their goal. they're not targeting the lives of the CS soldiers, they're targeting their morale.

Pretty sure that I'm familiar with the basic concepts of guerrilla tactics against larger nations.
No need to explain how it works.

But targeting CS morale?
That's hitting them at one of their strongest points.

(and as to the CS using their supposed psychic network of clairvoyants, first of all we have no solid evidence that anything remotely like that is in place

I haven't even brought that specifically into the conversation.
Do you really want to?

All I've done is point out that for every "but Mages could do this..." there's a "Yeah, and it may or may not work, because of this..."

Any claims that Tolkeen SHOULD have won are based--as far as I can tell--in a favoring of all or most Maybes in favor of Tolkeen and against the CS, when in reality, there are far too many x-factors to tell.
(and they arguably fall more on the side of the CS when it comes to certain things)

- the greatest threats to the world, using in-depth research gathered from every psychic that lazlo could reach, gave a vague description of the threats involved,

If you want to argue about this one, then grab your books and cite some specific passages.

so yeah, the CS has more total psychics,

When you say "the CS has more total psychics," I don't think you're really grokking the big picture.
Tolkeen, at its height, with everybody coming in to help them, had a total population of 1.3 million.
8% (check my facts on this, I'm going off of google) of Tolkeen's population was psychic, so that's about 104,000.
And there are 100,000 "monsters." Let's just assume that every one of those monsters is a psychic (although they wouldn't all be psychic).
So that's roughly 200k psychics, all told, and that's in 109 PA.

Yes, the CS has "more" psychics.

Specifically, as of 102 PA, the CS had roughly 4.780 million psychics as of 102 PA.

So to be more precise, when we say "the CS has more psyhics than Tolkeen," we're saying that pre CWC, the CS had roughly 31 times more psychics than Tolkeen would have at the very height of its power.

but they're trying to check in on an absurdly larger number of possible engagements. but seriously, if this system even worked at all, the CS would never get ambushed,

Incorrect.
Again, do you really want to get into this?
If so, let's start a new thread, so it doesn't take over this one.

[HWalsh]

the CS does not have technology anywhere remotely close to "sufficiently advanced" to be indistinguishable from magic.

Sure.
So... how's a plasma rifle work?
Oh, and their nuclear-powered armor and giant robots...?

pretty much everything they have is just taking what we have today, and making it more extreme. their lasers are more destructive, their armour is tougher, their robots are more mobile, their cybernetics/bionics interface better, their ability to store energy is better, their AI is... well, it's better, but not by that much. and they don't even really have superior tech in a lot of fields. their communications and sensor technology are nothing special at all. but nothing they do is anywhere near indistinguishable from magic.

CS Psi-Gauntlet.
MOM implants.
Juicers.
Bionics in general.
Vibro-blades.
Laser Bows.

and lastly, with some of the tricks magic can pull, tolkeen could potentially get a casualty ratio massively in their favour. no, they aren't going to kill off every CS soldier by limiting their engagements to only the ones they can start without suffering significant losses, even if that means only using the smaller number of troops they can transport with teleportation. but that isn't their goal. they're not targeting the lives of the CS soldiers, they're targeting their morale.

Pretty sure that I'm familiar with the basic concepts of guerrilla tactics against larger nations.
No need to explain how it works.

But targeting CS morale?
That's hitting them at one of their strongest points.

(and as to the CS using their supposed psychic network of clairvoyants, first of all we have no solid evidence that anything remotely like that is in place

I haven't even brought that specifically into the conversation.
Do you really want to?

All I've done is point out that for every "but Mages could do this..." there's a "Yeah, and it may or may not work, because of this..."

Any claims that Tolkeen SHOULD have won are based--as far as I can tell--in a favoring of all or most Maybes in favor of Tolkeen and against the CS, when in reality, there are far too many x-factors to tell.
(and they arguably fall more on the side of the CS when it comes to certain things)

- the greatest threats to the world, using in-depth research gathered from every psychic that lazlo could reach, gave a vague description of the threats involved,

If you want to argue about this one, then grab your books and cite some specific passages.

so yeah, the CS has more total psychics,

When you say "the CS has more total psychics," I don't think you're really grokking the big picture.
Tolkeen, at its height, with everybody coming in to help them, had a total population of 1.3 million.
8% (check my facts on this, I'm going off of google) of Tolkeen's population was psychic, so that's about 104,000.
And there are 100,000 "monsters." Let's just assume that every one of those monsters is a psychic (although they wouldn't all be psychic).
So that's roughly 200k psychics, all told, and that's in 109 PA.

Yes, the CS has "more" psychics.

Specifically, as of 102 PA, the CS had roughly 4.780 million psychics as of 102 PA.

So to be more precise, when we say "the CS has more psyhics than Tolkeen," we're saying that pre CWC, the CS had roughly 31 times more psychics than Tolkeen would have at the very height of its power.

but they're trying to check in on an absurdly larger number of possible engagements. but seriously, if this system even worked at all, the CS would never get ambushed,

Incorrect.
Again, do you really want to get into this?
If so, let's start a new thread, so it doesn't take over this one.

The CS Psychics would be largely useless actually. They'd find that they cannot possibly predict the CS's response if they try to use their powers to learn what Tolkeen plans on doing. Why? Tolkeen has a magical skull that gives them 100% accurate information. Any changes the CS makes Tolkeen knows about, so no matter what they do Tolkeen is prepared for any changes they make.

[Killer Cyborg]

Source?

[HWalsh]

Source?

Sedition I believe? Old Yorick the skull.

It provides 100% accurate information, so if a Psychic tries to change the action that the CS takes, the Skull would have already taken that into account, meaning that the CS Psychic's change was already known about. Thus there ya go.

[Killer Cyborg]

Source?

Sedition I believe? Old Yorick the skull.

It provides 100% accurate information, so if a Psychic tries to change the action that the CS takes, the Skull would have already taken that into account, meaning that the CS Psychic's change was already known about. Thus there ya go.

CW1 43
The problem with the skull is one can not simply ask it questions. It's owner(s) can ask questions of the skull until he is (or they are) blue in the face without getting a response. Poor Yorick only seems to make cryptic proclamations whenever the mood strikes it, and even then it can not (or will not) engage in conversation. However, once the skull initiates communication, it may answer 1-3 questions put to it and/or offer a few choice, unsolicited comments and observations; typically things that are annoying or disturbing to its owner(s). This leaves Poor Yorick's owners in a bit of a ham when they receive a cryptic comment, warning, or prophecy that they can not understand or which may have several meanings or possibilities.

CW1 44
Poor Yorick is famous for speaking in an ominous way and often (not always) in barely understandable terms, sometimes with precise information, dates, and times inter mixed with other bits of seemingly pointless, vague, enigmatic, or confusing words and information, or so broad or general as to have numerous (at least four) possible meanings. The language spoken by the skull is magically understood by all tho hear its words, although the meaning of those words may be unclear; "Lo, but for the blossoming thunder peal, the wind and the mountain thus prevail, for in the land of the twain, the 'tween shall fall, and in their passing the world weep tears of diamond." Huh?

Sometimes, Poor Yorick speaks frequently (i.e., a few times a week or in a single day), other times the mystical skull remains silent for weeks or months on end.

So.... Yorick is a BIG "maybe," not by any means any kind of assurance of anything.

COULD Yorick warn his owners about a CS ambush? Definitiely.
WOULD Yorick warn his owners about a CS ambush? Maybe. Certainly not reliably, though. Sometimes he talks, sometimes what he says is decipherable before the fact, sometimes he doesn't, sometimes it isn't.

[eliakon]

Okay here is a question *I* have for the whole idiot ball juggling by psychics festival
How did NO ONE KNOW LADY PROSEK WAS ALIVE.
No seriously
Any psychic uses object read on anything she ever owed and gets a reading of 'alive'
There is, canonically, no way to jam that, and there is no 'range' on it. It even works across dimensions.

So... um.... yeah
It looks like the only real explanation is that Karl just gave up on his wife as 'not worth a rescue' or possibly 'worth more propaganda value dead than alive'

Or I guess there is a secret, unmentioned plot armor spell/item/ability that was in use...

[HWalsh]

Okay here is a question *I* have for the whole idiot ball juggling by psychics festival
How did NO ONE KNOW LADY PROSEK WAS ALIVE.
No seriously
Any psychic uses object read on anything she ever owed and gets a reading of 'alive'
There is, canonically, no way to jam that, and there is no 'range' on it. It even works across dimensions.

So... um.... yeah
It looks like the only real explanation is that Karl just gave up on his wife as 'not worth a rescue' or possibly 'worth more propaganda value dead than alive'

Or I guess there is a secret, unmentioned plot armor spell/item/ability that was in use...

Willing to bet that he knew she was alive. He just felt she was better as a propaganda pawn. The CK's probably cheesed him off when they came back with her alive.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay here is a question *I* have for the whole idiot ball juggling by psychics festival
How did NO ONE KNOW LADY PROSEK WAS ALIVE.
No seriously
Any psychic uses object read on anything she ever owed and gets a reading of 'alive'
There is, canonically, no way to jam that, and there is no 'range' on it. It even works across dimensions.

So... um.... yeah
It looks like the only real explanation is that Karl just gave up on his wife as 'not worth a rescue' or possibly 'worth more propaganda value dead than alive'

Or I guess there is a secret, unmentioned plot armor spell/item/ability that was in use...

[Marcus]

Okay here is a question *I* have for the whole idiot ball juggling by psychics festival
How did NO ONE KNOW LADY PROSEK WAS ALIVE.
No seriously
Any psychic uses object read on anything she ever owed and gets a reading of 'alive'
There is, canonically, no way to jam that, and there is no 'range' on it. It even works across dimensions.

So... um.... yeah
It looks like the only real explanation is that Karl just gave up on his wife as 'not worth a rescue' or possibly 'worth more propaganda value dead than alive'

Or I guess there is a secret, unmentioned plot armor spell/item/ability that was in use...

Willing to bet that he knew she was alive. He just felt she was better as a propaganda pawn. The CK's probably cheesed him off when they came back with her alive.

Raise your bet... Just another plot hole KS didn't care to fix.

[Axelmania]

1. The CS initially excluded the FoM, and at that time the FoM wasn't evil.

The CS didn't just give a few little rules and ask that he stopped with human sacrifice and demon summoning... There were 134 rules the CS gave him...

Literally the CS created a club, didn't invite one of the most prominent kingdoms, then called them out, under false pretenses, then proceeded to hand them a list of 134 demands.

Yeah... Dunscon was insulted, any head of state would be insulted. How would the CS handle it if they were invited to a meeting of human kingdoms and they showed up and were handed a list of 134 items that they were expected to abide by, not as a member, but because they figured they could make them do that. On top of that Dunscon didn't threaten them... He told them outright they had nothing to fear from him, then he left.

That is the most reasonable thing I have ever seen a head of state pull in a similar circumstance. Heck, if he were the CS he would have murdered them all and sent them home in body bags.

So... In closing... If you want to really explain why the CS and FoM are at war it is because Joseph Prosek started it off by trying to issue a ludicrous 134 demands to a neighboring city while not even offering them a seat at the table. Had they actually spoken to them instead of basically threatening them. Instead of belittling their way of life... Rifts North America might be a very different place.

Source on FoM not being evil back then? This was a place where people with more magic power got to rule, and where there were duels to settle disagreements. FoM 9 says Nostrous was full of dreams of "conquest" simply by being "excluded" from the initial formation.

As we can see from Sedition many states didn't joinin 1PA, they joined later. It wasn't an insult or anything. Many countries joined things like NATO later too.

134 rules isn't that many. For example https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... /95624170/ you can see in recent news a senator has suggest 200 rule changes to Trump.

CS has never explicitly bothered with body bags for those it murders. That seem like an honor that would be reserved for their own Spain soldiers and diplomats who die on their watch.

You don't necessarily need to give a dangerous nation a seat at the table to issue demands to them. For examples:, modern sanctions and pushes for agreement over nuclear capabilities.

The 134 requests (not demands)included:

1) forbid summoning demons/dragons/elementals/aliens
2) forbid association with above
3) deny above citizenship to grand city
4) deny above citizenship in Federation
5) avoid extra inter-dimensional trade
6) suggestion: stronger laws regarding personal freedoms
7) suggestion: stronger laws governing use of magic

Even though CS membership wasn't offered then (a mere WEEK after the CS formed) they extended olive branches:
1) increase trade
2) a CS embassy to increase security

Nostrous only allowed 10% of the allotted time before he stormed off like a baby and refuses to talk.

He then had a plan to conquer ALL OF NORTH AMERICA (sorry Lazlo, native americans, Northern Gun and Tundra Rangers, prepare to OBEY) within 5 years.

Even after the Great City's magic recklessness killed many in the ChiTown burbs prior to The Three joining in 10 PA, Chi-Town remained peaceful ~2 years until FoM attacked first. These were not good people.

Groups maks requests to those in power all the time. That is not grounds to attack them. CS requests were clearly to see if FoM could reform enough to be groomed as a msmbs and Nostrous blew it.

What is interesting is... do we know if Tolkeen reached out to Chi-town or Chi-town to Tolkeen between 1 PA and 12 PA ? I can't remember if it was ever clarified which year they left. I only recall they were first to leave in protest of attack plans.

Based on placement I believe it was between 5 PA and 10 PA that they left.

[Greepnak]

It doesn't do anybody any good to debate over what's in the dictionary or make things personal attacks on eachother's character, guys.

The Federation of Magic book's first section explains it well, I think.

FoM book actually says the magic kingdoms were pretty well established before the CS even got started, and when it was incorporated the CS initially wanted to include all human kingdoms including the magic ones. At that time Dunscon Senior was a good dude, but he got drunk on his ego and started to go bad. When the CS proposed numerous demands for membership regarding the REGULATION of magic (no human sacrifice etc) Dunscon flipped his lid because he felt it was an insult.

The book ultimately proposes that the problem with magic in this setting is the level to which it empowers the wielder without any kind of social or moral restraint and says that if the whole Prosek vs Dunscon thing wasn't so personal (such as the wife torture) that history could be differrent today.

The CS does try to understand magic from a SCIENTIFIC perspective via the RCSG and such, but the faith requirement of practiced magic makes it hard to study via the scientific method.
"I don't know why exactly doing this with my fingers and saying three words in pseudo latin make a firebolt, it just does and thats all I need"

The Japan book lays out the alternative pretty well with the skeptical modern society getting along with the spiritual (and shockingly less tolerant by extension) side of the Japanese with the result probably being a techno-wizardry fusion based society in the future.

Alistair needs to stop putting the emperor's sons into soul gems and kidnapping his wife for torture while he supports making juicer murder-zombies. Hate cannot drive out hate. Thats why the Cyberknights are held up in the fluff as good examples that make hardliners take a step back.

I was sort of with you until the end there, where you put the complete blame onto Alistair.

Alistair needs to stop putting the emperor's sons into soul gems, kidnapping his wife, and making murder zombies... Yes... Does he have a reason? Yes. As far as he knows Prosek killed his father. That made things personal. Should the CS have stepped off of their requirements? Absolutely.

However there seems to be a bit of... Pro CS spin on the FoM vs CS in your post... So let's get a more accurate account of events.

1. The CS initially excluded the FoM, and at that time the FoM wasn't evil.

The CS didn't just give a few little rules and ask that he stopped with human sacrifice and demon summoning... There were 134 rules the CS gave him...

Literally the CS created a club, didn't invite one of the most prominent kingdoms, then called them out, under false pretenses, then proceeded to hand them a list of 134 demands.

Yeah... Dunscon was insulted, any head of state would be insulted. How would the CS handle it if they were invited to a meeting of human kingdoms and they showed up and were handed a list of 134 items that they were expected to abide by, not as a member, but because they figured they could make them do that. On top of that Dunscon didn't threaten them... He told them outright they had nothing to fear from him, then he left.

That is the most reasonable thing I have ever seen a head of state pull in a similar circumstance. Heck, if he were the CS he would have murdered them all and sent them home in body bags.

5 years later the FoM began to make plans to conquer North America. Which... Eh... Not exactly good, but the CS also has this Campaign of Unity that is the same thing... Oh right and Dunscon doesn't want to genocide anyone.

The FoM did not attack the CS, and I wish they had then, because they might have killed it before it became the monster that lives today. Hindsight is 20/20 after all.

There was an attack on Chi-Town, too late, in 12 P.A.

In retaliation the CS declared that because ONE kingdom (really one city) had attacked them, then all magic users had to die and began the campaign of blood.

So... In closing... If you want to really explain why the CS and FoM are at war it is because Joseph Prosek started it off by trying to issue a ludicrous 134 demands to a neighboring city while not even offering them a seat at the table. Had they actually spoken to them instead of basically threatening them. Instead of belittling their way of life... Rifts North America might be a very different place.

The story in FoM actually says that if Joseph Senior wasnt so hardcore about protecting humanity and Dunscon Senior wasnt such an egomaniac that everything would be different at this point. I like that interpretation, because it feels very "the real problem is the flaws in the human condition" and I find that thought provoking. Just my flavor of preference.

[HWalsh]

It doesn't do anybody any good to debate over what's in the dictionary or make things personal attacks on eachother's character, guys.

The Federation of Magic book's first section explains it well, I think.

FoM book actually says the magic kingdoms were pretty well established before the CS even got started, and when it was incorporated the CS initially wanted to include all human kingdoms including the magic ones. At that time Dunscon Senior was a good dude, but he got drunk on his ego and started to go bad. When the CS proposed numerous demands for membership regarding the REGULATION of magic (no human sacrifice etc) Dunscon flipped his lid because he felt it was an insult.

The book ultimately proposes that the problem with magic in this setting is the level to which it empowers the wielder without any kind of social or moral restraint and says that if the whole Prosek vs Dunscon thing wasn't so personal (such as the wife torture) that history could be differrent today.

The CS does try to understand magic from a SCIENTIFIC perspective via the RCSG and such, but the faith requirement of practiced magic makes it hard to study via the scientific method.
"I don't know why exactly doing this with my fingers and saying three words in pseudo latin make a firebolt, it just does and thats all I need"

The Japan book lays out the alternative pretty well with the skeptical modern society getting along with the spiritual (and shockingly less tolerant by extension) side of the Japanese with the result probably being a techno-wizardry fusion based society in the future.

Alistair needs to stop putting the emperor's sons into soul gems and kidnapping his wife for torture while he supports making juicer murder-zombies. Hate cannot drive out hate. Thats why the Cyberknights are held up in the fluff as good examples that make hardliners take a step back.

I was sort of with you until the end there, where you put the complete blame onto Alistair.

Alistair needs to stop putting the emperor's sons into soul gems, kidnapping his wife, and making murder zombies... Yes... Does he have a reason? Yes. As far as he knows Prosek killed his father. That made things personal. Should the CS have stepped off of their requirements? Absolutely.

However there seems to be a bit of... Pro CS spin on the FoM vs CS in your post... So let's get a more accurate account of events.

1. The CS initially excluded the FoM, and at that time the FoM wasn't evil.

The CS didn't just give a few little rules and ask that he stopped with human sacrifice and demon summoning... There were 134 rules the CS gave him...

Literally the CS created a club, didn't invite one of the most prominent kingdoms, then called them out, under false pretenses, then proceeded to hand them a list of 134 demands.

Yeah... Dunscon was insulted, any head of state would be insulted. How would the CS handle it if they were invited to a meeting of human kingdoms and they showed up and were handed a list of 134 items that they were expected to abide by, not as a member, but because they figured they could make them do that. On top of that Dunscon didn't threaten them... He told them outright they had nothing to fear from him, then he left.

That is the most reasonable thing I have ever seen a head of state pull in a similar circumstance. Heck, if he were the CS he would have murdered them all and sent them home in body bags.

5 years later the FoM began to make plans to conquer North America. Which... Eh... Not exactly good, but the CS also has this Campaign of Unity that is the same thing... Oh right and Dunscon doesn't want to genocide anyone.

The FoM did not attack the CS, and I wish they had then, because they might have killed it before it became the monster that lives today. Hindsight is 20/20 after all.

There was an attack on Chi-Town, too late, in 12 P.A.

In retaliation the CS declared that because ONE kingdom (really one city) had attacked them, then all magic users had to die and began the campaign of blood.

So... In closing... If you want to really explain why the CS and FoM are at war it is because Joseph Prosek started it off by trying to issue a ludicrous 134 demands to a neighboring city while not even offering them a seat at the table. Had they actually spoken to them instead of basically threatening them. Instead of belittling their way of life... Rifts North America might be a very different place.

The story in FoM actually says that if Joseph Senior wasnt so hardcore about protecting humanity and Dunscon Senior wasnt such an egomaniac that everything would be different at this point. I like that interpretation, because it feels very "the real problem is the flaws in the human condition" and I find that thought provoking. Just my flavor of preference.

The story in FoM actually says that if Joseph Senior wasn't so close-minded and ignorant and Dunscon Senior wasn't so protective of his people's way of life that everything would be different at this point. I like that interpretation, because it feels very "the real problem is the flaws in the human condition" and I find that thought provoking. Just my flavor of preference.

Fixed that for you. Removed some the CS bias while I was at it.

[Killer Cyborg]

The story in FoM actually says that if Joseph Senior wasnt so hardcore about protecting humanity and Dunscon Senior wasnt such an egomaniac that everything would be different at this point. I like that interpretation, because it feels very "the real problem is the flaws in the human condition" and I find that thought provoking. Just my flavor of preference.

The story in FoM actually says that if Joseph Senior wasn't so close-minded and ignorant and Dunscon Senior wasn't so protective of his people's way of life that everything would be different at this point. I like that interpretation, because it feels very "the real problem is the flaws in the human condition" and I find that thought provoking. Just my flavor of preference.

Fixed that for you. Removed some the CS bias while I was at it.

The story in FoM actually says that if Joseph Senior wasn't so close-minded and ignorant and Dunscon Senior wasn't so protective of his people's way summoning and associating with demons, that everything would be different at this point. I like that interpretation, because it feels very "the real problem is the flaws in the human condition" and I find that thought provoking. Just my flavor of preference.

Well, this is fun.
Wonder what the next version will be.

[Freemage]

Killer_Cyborg: I didn't mean to say that every setting with an iron-clad setting aspect suffers from the same issues. You are correct that a WWII game would not include much by the way of options for PCs to alter the overall course of the war.

OTOH, it also wouldn't include an extended section on the (historical) plot to assassinate Hitler by his own generals, make it theoretically plausible that the PCs would be in place to have the plot succeed, but then say, "But that won't happen." (I'm referring here to the Key of Solomon section, again.) For a War is Hell setting, you stick the parts that cannot be affected together, in a single section, that lays out a timeline for things to happen. You then lay out the bits that the PCs can actually affect--and that should be ninety percent of your book.

Also, genre matters. RIFTS is epic in scope, and the PCs are rarely just grunts in a war. Their actions are meant to be world-changing. So telling them, "Here, play amazing people, but don't have any impact" undercuts things.

BTW, sure, Kevin would be the first to say, "Play it how you want", but I've already laid out the issues with that approach to metaplot (which don't apply so much to house rules)--namely, that the value of the books themselves faces an almost inexorable Law of Diminishing Returns, because small changes beget huge changes beget completely different settings. You might be able to drag things back far enough to restore some of the value of, say, Minion Wars, but each successive wave will have the same problem.

Now, there is a way to do a metaplot that doesn't frustrate folks so much--leave the rules out of it entirely. Actually, I'd say publish three lines, beyond your core rule book:
1: New rules material.
2: New location material. Rules information here should be limited to new races/OCCs and gear exclusive to that location.
3: Metaplot scenarios.

The issue is that when you include 1 & 2 in that third class of books, you end up forcing players who want the official crunch to pay for the official fluff, even if they don't like it. As a publishing philosophy, that will breed resentment. Better to make types 1 & 2 tied to a specific date, and the metaplot books kick off from that date.

*********

On alternate tactics Tolkeen could've employed:

Sure, they could do the "hide and teleport" approach. Bamf in, raise some hell, bamf out again.

But the problem is, this first requires them to hide. They aren't just a band of ideologues. The whole point of their resistance to the CS is that they want to stay where they have settled and built their kingdom. Going to, say, the old Pueblo Cities in the American Southwest, re-building there, then using snipe-and-run tactics would've worked wonderfully--but it also would've been a complete surrender. Prosek's forces would just go in, burn the towns and cities (just like they did), and given the Tolkeenites nothing to be fighting for, other than revenge. At that point, any resources spent on extracting vengeance might very well be better spent improving your citizens' lives.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

It doesn't do anybody any good to debate over what's in the dictionary or make things personal attacks on eachother's character, guys.

The Federation of Magic book's first section explains it well, I think.

FoM book actually says the magic kingdoms were pretty well established before the CS even got started, and when it was incorporated the CS initially wanted to include all human kingdoms including the magic ones. At that time Dunscon Senior was a good dude, but he got drunk on his ego and started to go bad. When the CS proposed numerous demands for membership regarding the REGULATION of magic (no human sacrifice etc) Dunscon flipped his lid because he felt it was an insult.

The book ultimately proposes that the problem with magic in this setting is the level to which it empowers the wielder without any kind of social or moral restraint and says that if the whole Prosek vs Dunscon thing wasn't so personal (such as the wife torture) that history could be differrent today.

The CS does try to understand magic from a SCIENTIFIC perspective via the RCSG and such, but the faith requirement of practiced magic makes it hard to study via the scientific method.
"I don't know why exactly doing this with my fingers and saying three words in pseudo latin make a firebolt, it just does and thats all I need"

The Japan book lays out the alternative pretty well with the skeptical modern society getting along with the spiritual (and shockingly less tolerant by extension) side of the Japanese with the result probably being a techno-wizardry fusion based society in the future.

Alistair needs to stop putting the emperor's sons into soul gems and kidnapping his wife for torture while he supports making juicer murder-zombies. Hate cannot drive out hate. Thats why the Cyberknights are held up in the fluff as good examples that make hardliners take a step back.

I was sort of with you until the end there, where you put the complete blame onto Alistair.

Alistair needs to stop putting the emperor's sons into soul gems, kidnapping his wife, and making murder zombies... Yes... Does he have a reason? Yes. As far as he knows Prosek killed his father. That made things personal. Should the CS have stepped off of their requirements? Absolutely.

However there seems to be a bit of... Pro CS spin on the FoM vs CS in your post... So let's get a more accurate account of events.

1. The CS initially excluded the FoM, and at that time the FoM wasn't evil.

The CS didn't just give a few little rules and ask that he stopped with human sacrifice and demon summoning... There were 134 rules the CS gave him...

Literally the CS created a club, didn't invite one of the most prominent kingdoms, then called them out, under false pretenses, then proceeded to hand them a list of 134 demands.

Yeah... Dunscon was insulted, any head of state would be insulted. How would the CS handle it if they were invited to a meeting of human kingdoms and they showed up and were handed a list of 134 items that they were expected to abide by, not as a member, but because they figured they could make them do that. On top of that Dunscon didn't threaten them... He told them outright they had nothing to fear from him, then he left.

That is the most reasonable thing I have ever seen a head of state pull in a similar circumstance. Heck, if he were the CS he would have murdered them all and sent them home in body bags.

5 years later the FoM began to make plans to conquer North America. Which... Eh... Not exactly good, but the CS also has this Campaign of Unity that is the same thing... Oh right and Dunscon doesn't want to genocide anyone.

The FoM did not attack the CS, and I wish they had then, because they might have killed it before it became the monster that lives today. Hindsight is 20/20 after all.

There was an attack on Chi-Town, too late, in 12 P.A.

In retaliation the CS declared that because ONE kingdom (really one city) had attacked them, then all magic users had to die and began the campaign of blood.

So... In closing... If you want to really explain why the CS and FoM are at war it is because Joseph Prosek started it off by trying to issue a ludicrous 134 demands to a neighboring city while not even offering them a seat at the table. Had they actually spoken to them instead of basically threatening them. Instead of belittling their way of life... Rifts North America might be a very different place.

Funny page 9-10 FOM WB 16 tells the story differently, and Joseph was just a colonel at this time and not part of the leadership, please if you going to present the history atleast get it right instead of trying put a spin on it.

[Shark_Force]

On alternate tactics Tolkeen could've employed:

Sure, they could do the "hide and teleport" approach. Bamf in, raise some hell, bamf out again.

But the problem is, this first requires them to hide. They aren't just a band of ideologues. The whole point of their resistance to the CS is that they want to stay where they have settled and built their kingdom. Going to, say, the old Pueblo Cities in the American Southwest, re-building there, then using snipe-and-run tactics would've worked wonderfully--but it also would've been a complete surrender. Prosek's forces would just go in, burn the towns and cities (just like they did), and given the Tolkeenites nothing to be fighting for, other than revenge. At that point, any resources spent on extracting vengeance might very well be better spent improving your citizens' lives.

with magic, you might be able to hide your city (though that would require something rather impressive to say the least considering the CS knows the location).. you might also be able to hide in your city when you're not out attacking, and put near-impenetrable defenses around your city (for example, by surrounding it with wall of defense spells that don't have any MDC rating at all, but are simply immune to everything). that doesn't mean you can't have outposts scattered all over the world if you wanted in addition to whatever you do to protect the city of itself, but the city itself needs to be protected by something a lot stronger than a 100 MDC/10 foot square barrier...

[Axelmania]

HWalsh was initially correct in that he said the CS issued the demands ( well, not correct there, they were requests) but then perhaps unconsciously shifted to saying it was Joseph Prosek who issued them.

The requests (not demands) we were told of seemed reasonable enough. They are at least something worth discussing and not forgoing 90% of your allotted conversation time.

For example: the Coalition had 12% non human population and only 6% were PsiStalkers... But one of the REQUESTS was to stop associating with aliens.

Even if these non-humans weren't citizens, it is hard to believe the CS did not associate with them. Were they non-human non-aliens? Perhaps some Sasquatch native to north america? Or is the other 6% the dairy cattle population?

However annoying the first 0 PA Coalition States was, the second Coalition States that formed in 34'PA under new leadership really shouldn't be blamed for it.

[Mack]

This thread is why the CS is awesome.

[HWalsh]

HWalsh was initially correct in that he said the CS issued the demands ( well, not correct there, they were requests) but then perhaps unconsciously shifted to saying it was Joseph Prosek who issued them.

The requests (not demands) we were told of seemed reasonable enough. They are at least something worth discussing and not forgoing 90% of your allotted conversation time.

For example: the Coalition had 12% non human population and only 6% were PsiStalkers... But one of the REQUESTS was to stop associating with aliens.

Even if these non-humans weren't citizens, it is hard to believe the CS did not associate with them. Were they non-human non-aliens? Perhaps some Sasquatch native to north america? Or is the other 6% the dairy cattle population?

However annoying the first 0 PA Coalition States was, the second Coalition States that formed in 34'PA under new leadership really shouldn't be blamed for it.

How do you think the CS would have handled if THEY were given right now 134 requests.

I'll only outline 10:

1. Karl Prosek must step down and Joseph Prosek may not seek office.
2. The CS must reduce its military (including Psi-Stalkers, Dog Boys, and Skelebots) to no greater than 2.5 million.
3. The CS may not expand its borders into any location without gaining expressed consent of the people that were already there.
4. The CS agrees to cease the use of "hate speech" and must disband its state news agencies.
5. The CS agrees to provide free education to the citizens in the cities and the burbs. All education material must be approved by the Council of Lazlo.
6. The CS must agree to holding open forums where people can speak freely against CS policy without fear of reprisal from the CS.
7. Karl Prosek, Joseph Prosek, and the military leaders of the CS must agree to travel to the city of Lazlo and face charges of War Crimes for the Genocide of Tolkeen.
8. The CS must condemn the murders of dbees committed during the Night of Forgiveness.
9. The CS agrees to sign a non-aggression and mutual defense pact with Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies.
10. The CS must state that the city of Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies, are legitimate governments and must recognize their sovereignty.

How do you think the CS would react to that?

[Vrykolas2k]

Lets be clear here.
The CS?
The Bloody Campaign that is used to justify their hatred? Yeah that was in 12 PA?
That was 93 years ago. Before the CS even existed.
That would be like arguing that because the leadership of Japan did some bad things to US troops that the proportionate response would be the extermination of all Asians. And then claiming that when China tried to defend itself from our invasion and systematic murder of their men, women and children (since kids just grow up to be adults, got to kill them while you can) that it proves that all Asians are bad and that we need to kill them faster.

But lets put it in terms that people can understand better.
Lets pretend that it is recent okay?
9-11.
Now, that was done at the behest of Al-Qadea which was associated with the Taliban the ruling party of Afghanistan.
Thus the logical, proportionate and morally justified response...
...would be to engage in a systematic murder of every Muslim on the planet right? And not just in the US, but invading Canada, and Mexico, and other nations to set up death camps where our SS expys can send their Muslims to be gassed.
?
What? No one thinks that is justified?

And the pre-release of Disavowed makes this even WORSE people.
Trust me, as bad as it is now, the Disavowed book makes it just sickening.


Then why do the CS apologists seem to think that a battle with one nation 90+ years ago justifies a nation to exterminate entire races and philosophies?
Besides of course the "but I like playing evil people" argument or the ever popular "Well, I want to play people who are not really bad, just confused... but I'm going to do all the evil stuff anyway and pretend that I don't know better even though in the books every one who is exposed to these choices either rebels or is capital E Evil."

The near irradication of every human on earth, countless magical earthquakes, tidal waves, tornadows, firestorms, zombie plagues, volcanos, that put enough ash in the sky to simulate nuclear winter for years and millions of alien invader's raining down on the planet. The fall of civilization, BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of people dead.

Due to magic.

That's all the justification anyone would -ever- need.

Add on 200 years of dark ages, where countless monsters, demons, supernatural beings, alien invaders preyed on the few pockets of remaining humans. 200 years of virtually zero communication, fending off megadamage threats of all kinds. Then Just as they start to crawl out of the muck, the battle you mention with the magic kingdom that tried to irradicate the humans again.

You act like this was a simple bar fight where a few people got hurt pride. Magic killed billions of humans and utterly reshaped the entire planet. Natural disasters on a scale that would dwarf all previous ones combined. Literal ----100s of years---- of dark ages, not just a few years, but MANY GENERATIONS of people, where monsters of every stripe preyed on the few humans that remained. Then just when they were starting to get on their feet, a magic nation tried to kill them again.

You want to relate it to 9-11? Lets do so.

3000 people died in 9-11 and utterly changed our society, and we still feel it to this day. The Cheeto is STILL trying to get an UNCONSTITUTIONAL Muslim ban in place. Every court strikes him down, but the guy that sits in the big chair, keeps trying.

Three thousand people died. Changed modern society and indeed the world.

Now imagine if something (Anything) had killed 7-10 BILLION people.

You act like it ain't no thing. lol

Insanity. That anyone could trust magic after all that is utterly amazing. Expecting people to is crazy.

Actually, technology brought about the end of the world; it was nukes that killed enough people to create enough PPE to fuel everything that came after.
So, really tech should be shunned and tech-using nations like the CS should be shunned and destroyed.

[Vrykolas2k]

Meant to invoke doesn't make you what you invoke. A guy in Childhood's End or even Smaug in the hobbit films basically invoke Satan but they aren't literally Satan. Stormtroopers aren't Nazis either.

Being unable to discern a shapeshifter doesn't make you an idiot. Flawed argument.

Soldiers.are 15% evil 5% anarchist, other 80% are the good alignments: principled/scrupulous/unprincipled.

If any genocide happened during the Siege it was a small part of it and only a sma portion of soldiers, if any, would perceive it that way.

Your one CS perspective and judging millions of soldiers by that one man... Or your 2%... Struggling the follow the process here.

States.have no desires. People do. Speak for the people.

Who besides Karl knew how far Chaulk would go?

Isn't nuking the main city a decent way of sparing the surrounding farm.towns which King Creed dragged into the battle? America did the same in WW2. The Coalition's Pearl Harbor.was.the FoM invasion.

For all their "seceding" Tolkeen certainly didn't try to stop the FoM invasion. They also stayed away when Joanna was kidnapped. But they get involved to attack the CS if it tries to stabilize Minnesota.

Are your alignment percentages a house-rule?
Last official percentages I read said CS personnel are 80% Anarchist or Miscreant...

[Vrykolas2k]

claiming that magic isn't dangerous is ludicrous.

Agreed.
Again, a lone shifter attempting to show off, brought the Mechanoids to Rifts Earth, which (if not for some bands of plucky heroes) would have literally ended with the destruction of the entire planet.
Just for starts.

And in just about every gaming group I'm aware of, some of those plucky heroes were magi themselves...

[Nightmask]

claiming that magic isn't dangerous is ludicrous.

Agreed.
Again, a lone shifter attempting to show off, brought the Mechanoids to Rifts Earth, which (if not for some bands of plucky heroes) would have literally ended with the destruction of the entire planet.
Just for starts.

And in just about every gaming group I'm aware of, some of those plucky heroes were magi themselves...

Plus it's not like the Shifter INTENDED to rift in Mechanoids, he was simply opening a random rift as a demonstration for ARCHIE-3 and it just happened to bring the Mechanoids over. It would be a gross miss-characterization to imply that he did it deliberately or that somehow other mages wouldn't have gotten involved to stop them (since almost all mages are humanoid enough to be on the kill list for Mechanoids).

It also tries to downplay the dangers of technology, since the dimensional technology at Lonestar, something purely technology no magic involved, when activated the first time removed everyone from the facility to some unknown fate. When it was tested again by Bradford it unleashed a number of dangerous dimensional rifts and led to the rat-morphs he'd created escaping into the wild and become a growing plague on the area (since they're mostly amoral or evil). All that danger falls squarely on the head of technology.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

the main danger in rifts isn't magic or tech, the people behind them
A shapechanger mage could easy trick the CS into wiping out a peaceful dbee village, while showing a group of adventures " how evil the CS is"
Then enjoy watching the show both times, causing pain and death without lifting a finger, other the first contact with the CS to set it in motion.
CS wins , dbees and mages are dangerous
Adventurers win , look how evil the CS are to kill all these peaceful folks

Meanwhile both side got played, by shapeshifter who had a problem with those villagers or who was looking for some free entertainment.

[Killer Cyborg]

claiming that magic isn't dangerous is ludicrous.

Agreed.
Again, a lone shifter attempting to show off, brought the Mechanoids to Rifts Earth, which (if not for some bands of plucky heroes) would have literally ended with the destruction of the entire planet.
Just for starts.

And in just about every gaming group I'm aware of, some of those plucky heroes were magi themselves...

Plus it's not like the Shifter INTENDED to rift in Mechanoids, he was simply opening a random rift as a demonstration for ARCHIE-3 and it just happened to bring the Mechanoids over. It would be a gross miss-characterization to imply that he did it deliberately or that somehow other mages wouldn't have gotten involved to stop them (since almost all mages are humanoid enough to be on the kill list for Mechanoids).

The accidental nature is roughly half of the point of that example. This wasn't an evil mage. This wasn't a very powerful mage.
This was kind of your average Joe magic Schmoe, and he unleashed forces that could have eaten the galaxy.
On accident.
Without trying.
That's how dangerous magic is.

It also tries to downplay the dangers of technology, since the dimensional technology at Lonestar, something purely technology no magic involved, when activated the first time removed everyone from the facility to some unknown fate. When it was tested again by Bradford it unleashed a number of dangerous dimensional rifts and led to the rat-morphs he'd created escaping into the wild and become a growing plague on the area (since they're mostly amoral or evil). All that danger falls squarely on the head of technology.

It's been so long since I've read Lonestar, I don't recall much of what you're talking about there.
From what you're saying, though, yeah... it sounds like the stuff they're doing there is about as dangerous as a single Shifter.
Technology is dangerous too... just not as dangerous. So far.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, technology brought about the end of the world; it was nukes that killed enough people to create enough PPE to fuel everything that came after.
So, really tech should be shunned and tech-using nations like the CS should be shunned and destroyed.

Technology was used to spark the magical apocalypse.
Blaming the spark instead of the apocalypse seems misplaced.

[Axelmania]

HWalsh was initially correct in that he said the CS issued the demands ( well, not correct there, they were requests) but then perhaps unconsciously shifted to saying it was Joseph Prosek who issued them.

The requests (not demands) we were told of seemed reasonable enough. They are at least something worth discussing and not forgoing 90% of your allotted conversation time.

For example: the Coalition had 12% non human population and only 6% were PsiStalkers... But one of the REQUESTS was to stop associating with aliens.

Even if these non-humans weren't citizens, it is hard to believe the CS did not associate with them. Were they non-human non-aliens? Perhaps some Sasquatch native to north america? Or is the other 6% the dairy cattle population?

However annoying the first 0 PA Coalition States was, the second Coalition States that formed in 34'PA under new leadership really shouldn't be blamed for it.

How do you think the CS would have handled if THEY were given right now 134 requests.

I'll only outline 10:

1. Karl Prosek must step down and Joseph Prosek may not seek office.
2. The CS must reduce its military (including Psi-Stalkers, Dog Boys, and Skelebots) to no greater than 2.5 million.
3. The CS may not expand its borders into any location without gaining expressed consent of the people that were already there.
4. The CS agrees to cease the use of "hate speech" and must disband its state news agencies.
5. The CS agrees to provide free education to the citizens in the cities and the burbs. All education material must be approved by the Council of Lazlo.
6. The CS must agree to holding open forums where people can speak freely against CS policy without fear of reprisal from the CS.
7. Karl Prosek, Joseph Prosek, and the military leaders of the CS must agree to travel to the city of Lazlo and face charges of War Crimes for the Genocide of Tolkeen.
8. The CS must condemn the murders of dbees committed during the Night of Forgiveness.
9. The CS agrees to sign a non-aggression and mutual defense pact with Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies.
10. The CS must state that the city of Lazlo and the Colorado Baronies, are legitimate governments and must recognize their sovereignty.

How do you think the CS would react to that?

Karl "you take this son."
Jo2 "LOL No."
Karl "you kids and your slang."

Any one if these requests is far more severe than the sum of all known requests that the 0PA CS leaders made to Nostrous in week 1.

Soldiers.are 15% evil 5% anarchist, other 80% are the good alignments: principled/scrupulous/unprincipled.

Are your alignment percentages a house-rule?
Last official percentages I read said CS personnel are 80% Anarchist or Miscreant...

They are official numbers from Coalition War Campaign. I can't remember exact year that was set, ~105 PA maybe?

If you have different numbers from a later year feel freed to quite. We can both be right at different time points and move tondiscussing shat may have caused such shifts.

it's not like the Shifter INTENDED to rift in Mechanoids, he was simply opening a random rift as a demonstration for ARCHIE-3 and it just happened to bring the Mechanoids over. It would be a gross miss-characterization to imply that he did it deliberately

This seems like shifting the goalposts NM. Who exactly argued the Shifter did t deliberately?

Were arguing it is dangerous. Being able to accidentally an Eldritch horror is very dangerous.

KS usually writes about how alien intelligences can't just show up. They often need to be summoned in. I guess many have unclarified limitations to their Dimensional Portal or something.

So how does Europe have millions if alien intelligences? Shifters and no CS to deal with them because the closest thing to it is on the defensive due to gargoyles.

Pretty sure the Unholy problem on Wormwood is also due to greedy and/or reckless shifters too.