Nightbane gun arms and MD

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

Does anyone recall any conversion text about ALL attacks becoming MD, or would this just be ones that benefit from Supernatural PS?

I'm wondering if their guns would still do SDC except in cases where you can load special MD ammo into SDC weapons, like Ramjet rounds.
tsh77769
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 1:01 am

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by tsh77769 »

I'll second the question.

Also, do they count as magic?

tsh77769
User avatar
Blue_Lion
Knight
Posts: 6226
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Clone Lab 27

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:Does anyone recall any conversion text about ALL attacks becoming MD, or would this just be ones that benefit from Supernatural PS?

I'm wondering if their guns would still do SDC except in cases where you can load special MD ammo into SDC weapons, like Ramjet rounds.

Night bane was converted in dark conversions. Check there.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

Pg 164 still mentions the biggest possible is a gun doing 6d6 damage... but then it also talks about 'pulse weapons' and storing E-clips inside you, so maybe it was intended to mean 6D6 mega-damage?

Someone coming from Nightbane wouldn't realistically have a gun modeled from Rifts Earth so I imagine having a 6D6 MD weapon would be for Nightbane native to Rifts Earth?
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Gun-limbs. as presented in the NB MB, fire firearm rounds. If the rounds themselves convert to MD then follow the round's conversion. Otherwise they only do SD.

Gun-limb projectiles are not "magic"or "SN".

The Energy weapons features found in the rifters (R20 I think) might do MD in MD/MDC settings.
---------

RDC: Except for editing out the first two words of the section, the gun-limb feature is just copied and pasted from the NB MB. Thus, the word "damage" is still talking about SD.

EDIT: As mentioned in another topic, the way I understand the RAW is that they are talking about the standard 'ball' round damage as the upper limit of the type of weapon able to be chosen for a gun-limb. Which does mean that special rounds could raise the damage do by the gun-limb. Rifts example if the char got her hands on ramjet rounds that fit her gun-limb then she would do the ramjet round damage.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
glitterboy2098
Rifts® Trivia Master
Posts: 13319
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

generally if plain "damage" is used it means SDC. megadamage is almost always specified.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by eliakon »

Damage would be that of the bullet.
And it would be a GM call if you can use the various special rounds in the weapon, or if you can only use the basic ones.
Personally, in a Rifts game I can not see a reason to allow someone to use any proper caliber round. But that is my call as a GM YMMV.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

If it was meant to be limited to bullets then why would it be mentioning E-clips in dark conversions? The only thing that comes to mind is the e-clip powered railguns in Warlords of Russia.
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:If it was meant to be limited to bullets then why would it be mentioning E-clips in dark conversions? The only thing that comes to mind is the e-clip powered rail-guns in Warlords of Russia.



As it is the 6d6 SD limit is still in place, since they didn't modify the text to mean something different.
So the only actual change of the text you pointed out was to allow, in rifts, energy weapons that do 6d6 SD or less in rifts, to be a gun-limb.

Thus it can be a wilks laser scalpel, and not much else. Even then it is limited to the SD settings.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:If it was meant to be limited to bullets then why would it be mentioning E-clips in dark conversions? The only thing that comes to mind is the e-clip powered rail-guns in Warlords of Russia.



As it is the 6d6 SD limit is still in place, since they didn't modify the text to mean something different.
So the only actual change of the text you pointed out was to allow, in rifts, energy weapons that do 6d6 SD or less in rifts, to be a gun-limb.

Thus it can be a wilks laser scalpel, and not much else. Even then it is limited to the SD settings.

Well, there are some lasers that do SDC, some of which only do SDC, so those are options as well.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Thus it can be a wilks laser scalpel, and not much else. Even then it is limited to the SD settings.

Well, there are some lasers that do SDC, some of which only do SDC, so those are options as well.

Yep, I left the door open for there to be other SD equipment, even thou the WLS was the only thing that came to mind. And even covered those weapons with SD and MD settings.

For those rifts stuff that has more then one SD setting I'd might have the player chose which setting that the gun-limb mimic. Or even maybe having them pay for all the different settings from their perm PPE on the accumulated damages total.
Yah I think just totaling them up would be enough. More so with the weapon types has more then two SD settings it is going to eat into the char's PPE base right quickly.

Of course this is The Feature that the GM needs to be involved with the character building so both sides will be on the same page about how the rules work in this case.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

The CS rifles with SDC settings and massive payloads didn't even occur to me, good idea.
Eagle
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:31 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Eagle »

I'd have no problem letting them have it as a megadamage weapon. Maybe have them use those special explosive rounds or something. Otherwise it's just a Nightbane power that suddenly sucks. No point in taking away options from a player. "Gun arm" is already a fairly subpar choice in Nightbane.
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Eagle wrote:snip... "Gun arm" is already a fairly subpar choice in Nightbane.

Yep, but that is a whole another topic for a different forum.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by eliakon »

Eagle wrote:I'd have no problem letting them have it as a megadamage weapon. Maybe have them use those special explosive rounds or something. Otherwise it's just a Nightbane power that suddenly sucks. No point in taking away options from a player. "Gun arm" is already a fairly subpar choice in Nightbane.

Sure, the GM can choose to have the weapon be MD.
But as written it just says damage, which with no other qualifier usually (but not always) means SD not MD.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

Worth noting that weapons whose standard ammo do 6d6 in SDC games like HU or Nightbane can use special MD ammo in Rifts so it would stand to reason the gun arm could too.

I never saw it as subpar. Range is a valuable thing. Even SDC it would be useful in Rifts.
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

6D6 SD is sub-par in NB because the most prolific opponents are resistant (-50%) to mundane damage.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

Are the Hounds necessarily the most prolific?

3D6 is still pretty decent if you have the benefit of range. Not so good if you're trapped in HTH.

Since the 6D6 is per bullet though... isn't there always bursting?

Plus there were spells which could multiply weapon damage against he supernatural, perhaps they could be cast on weapon limbs too.
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

hounds, hunter, and great hounds. I got the idea that these are the cannon fodder that the nightlords use as their armies.

Bursting also costs even more Perm PPE. and with the % of ammo payload the burst rules use….*shrugs*

Magic….can they be cast onto the NightBane? A gun-limb is a part of the NB not an object. It is up to individual GMs to decide if they want the Charm Weapon, Temp Enchantment and Enchant Weapon spells to be able to applied to a living being.
These spells were written as if the weapons they were going to enchant are non-living physical items w/o thought about how munchkins could twist words to mean what they want them to mean.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
Nekira Sudacne
Monk
Posts: 15488
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:22 pm
Comment: The Munchkin Fairy
Location: 2nd Degree Black Belt of Post Fu
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:hounds, hunter, and great hounds. I got the idea that these are the cannon fodder that the nightlords use as their armies.

Bursting also costs even more Perm PPE. and with the % of ammo payload the burst rules use….*shrugs*

Magic….can they be cast onto the NightBane? A gun-limb is a part of the NB not an object. It is up to individual GMs to decide if they want the Charm Weapon, Temp Enchantment and Enchant Weapon spells to be able to applied to a living being.
These spells were written as if the weapons they were going to enchant are non-living physical items w/o thought about how munchkins could twist words to mean what they want them to mean.


I don't think hounds are supposed to be cannon fodder. They're discribed as shock troopers, intended to survive the brunt of combat. I think those dinky dopplegangers agents and cultists are the actual cannon fodder. I think that hounds were intended to be serious threats. They have a fairly large amount of HP/MDC, they have weapons that ignore armor, and they're naturals at working and fighting as a group, many ganging up to take one down at a time--remember Nightbane keeps the "can only parry attakcs from up to 3 enemies surrounding you" at a time rule, plus there's that one fiction bit where a platoon of 20 something hounds completely routed a larger group of Nightbane.

The thing is, the hounds were apparently balanced on the assumption that all Nightbane would actually be rolled at complete random, with roughly the same odds you'll end up with a metal exoskeleton as you will a tiny, elfin creature. A completely random nightbane against an average hound, still favors the nightbane one on one. Roll up a book-proper Nightbane though, 3d6 down the line, and randomly rolled morphus traits rather than selected, and you'll find 3 or 4 are enough to overwhelm most bane pretty darn fast.

I mean the reoccuring Face role is Burger face, and His morphus is....he has a ground up, burned face/body. not exactly a powerhouse.

Hounds are only disposable minions if you assume the GM's are letting people custom-pick 4-6 themed morphus traits that give a lot of bonuses and make you into a tanky powerhouse. Randomly rolling morphus traits tends to result in much more balanced party, power wise, if not theme wise.

I think the thing is that Nightbane more resemble X-Men setting random mutants in terms of power than the "tightly themed, well assembled" bane that tend to pervade party groups. Only a few Nightbane will luck into having a half dozen high-bonus granting traits that work well togeather like Mecha-Bane with a giant centuar body with a metal armor plating and a gun-arm with 500 SDC. most of them get stuck with "I got a burger face and maybe 60 SDC total" and are nothing too special in a fight, and a squad of hounds can cut down in a big hurry.
Sometimes, you're like a beacon of light in the darkness, giving me some hope for humankind. ~ Killer Cyborg

You can have something done good, fast and cheap. If you want it done good and fast, it's not going to be cheap. If you want it done fast and cheap it won't be good. If you want something done good and cheap it won't be done fast. ~ Dark Brandon
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

I don't see it as munchkin to enchant gun limbs. They have normal stats after all. You have to find ammo normally and it actually hurts you to reload (0 to 100 bullets inflicts 10d6, not ideal in melee) plus presumably you need to spend 1 action per bullet you jam in, slower than simply swapping out a clip or a chain feed. Someone with one of these could still be better off using a handheld for these reasons.

Sorcerers can only start with up to 4th level and Charm Weapon is 5th. It takes an hour of Oreo and guns are +3 to save. I'm not even sure if the caster can tell whether it worked or not.

Hounds seem like plenty of trouble in HtH since they can simultaneous attack relying on their AR to prevent hits.

The CW is just a plain killer of hounds and whether or not we apply it to gun limbs won't change that since the bane can use guns too...

A) half damage from non magical weapons no longer applies
B) hounds take double damage from magic weapons
C) the spell doubles damage to supernatural beings

Altogether the spell means 8x the output.

Night lords do have armies of them but I figured the standard opponents would be preeverts, corrupted police or NSB agents. A covert strike team of hounds led by a hound masters would be the reinforcements called in when extreme problems are targeted.
User avatar
Blue_Lion
Knight
Posts: 6226
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Location: Clone Lab 27

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

How the heck did you caculate it to 8x damage.
Even doing the math wrong it would only be 4x damage doubled twice.
(Correct damage multiplier rules as I understand it is 3X as the base damage is doubled twice not the modified damage.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Blue_Lion wrote:How the heck did you calculate it to 8x damage.
Even doing the math wrong it would only be 4x damage doubled twice.
(Correct damage multiplier rules as I understand it is 3X as the base damage is doubled twice not the modified damage.)

He means it is x8 from what the mundane bullets would normally do to the hounds when using his house rules.

A) the bullets are still mundane weapons. So the resistance to damage still applies.
B) The bullets are not magic (unless otherwise enchanted).
C) Outside of GMs specifically allowing it, the enchant weapon spells in the NB MB are not specifically able to enchant living beings.


Minotaurs with charm weapon enchantments on their horns comes to mind when thinking about how these spell can be abused.

I will have to agree that real firearms when enchanted with the NB MB charm weapon spells there would be significant multiplier to the damage. If using the normal PB way of adding multipliers together is would be x3 the base damage to hounds.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

Read the full description as it carries over into 134

"Any missiles it fires will be automatically be charmed"

So they do cease to be mundane and do start to be magic.

There is no normal way of adding multipliers. That is just something done with some criticals.

There is no caveat in this spell preventing its use on weapons which are attached to living beings.

That said, weapons get a savings throw and you could make the argument they also get any saves vs magic the nightbane enjoy, which would make it much harder to enchant them.

I don't really see why minotaur horns would be an abuse. Nothing in the spell saying "no natural body weapons". A minotaur is still better off enchanting something which does more damage and gets WP bonuses.
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

And if the charm weapon can't enchant a living being then there is no carry over magic….So, thank you for stating how you would rule in your games.

EDIT: Maybe I should of started off responding to the "C" first so the responses to "A" & "B" were a result from the charm weapon spells not being able to enchant living beings…*said the cat*.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:There is no normal way of adding multipliers. That is just something done with some criticals.

It is also the way that it is described for dealing with stacked damage multipliers

Axelmania wrote:There is no caveat in this spell preventing its use on weapons which are attached to living beings.

That said, weapons get a savings throw and you could make the argument they also get any saves vs magic the nightbane enjoy, which would make it much harder to enchant them.

I don't really see why minotaur horns would be an abuse. Nothing in the spell saying "no natural body weapons". A minotaur is still better off enchanting something which does more damage and gets WP bonuses.

The spell doesn't say it can affect creatures
It says it "Affects both hand to hand and missile weapons"
There is nothing in there about "And you can enchant a creature"
Nor is there anything about "you can enchant part of something"
Thus the argument that you can enchant just part of a person is not found in the spell at all.

Now yes, a GM could make a house rule that he would allow this at his table. But the spell as written does not allow for that and it would require the GM to be adding to the spell. It is not a "natural consequence" of the spell.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

It says "weapons" not "only unliving weapons not connected to creatures". Stop introducing your house rules as limits to the spell please. It works on anything that is a weapons .

Show me where it says x2x2 = x3 for non-crits.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:It says "weapons" not "only unliving weapons not connected to creatures". Stop introducing your house rules as limits to the spell please. It works on anything that is a weapons .


Show me where it ever says natural weapons and parts of objects?
It doesn't does it.
It says it affects a weapon, not a part of an object.
The Nightbane is not a weapon and thus is not a legal target.
The gunarm is simply an indivisible part of the Nightbane and not a separate "weapon" and again is not a legal target.

You can munch out the spell as you see fit of course, but the RAW don't allow for this particular shenanigan.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Axelmania
Knight
Posts: 5523
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm

Re: Nightbane gun arms and MD

Unread post by Axelmania »

You are arguing that it is not a weapon. The book disagrees. Two situations where Charm Weapon would work:

NBp105
    Weapon Hand: ... hands can Metamorphosize, at will, into a hand weapon .. The weapon does normal damage

NBp106

    Gun Limbs .. an automatic weapon

The 3 rituals do not limit what kinds of weapons they work on. That does make them quite powerful. It does mean they can enchant Nightbane Biomech weapons, or even already magical weapons, including rune weapons, or starship cannons.
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®”