Breaking Rifts.

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

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Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

What do you think would happen to NA and rifts if a powerful TW/alchemist showed up and started not only arming the true FoM but providing more troops than the CS can shake a stick at?
(If you want numbers lets say 1 million new troops to the FoM within 72 hours and 200-500K per month until stoped.)
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Sun May 28, 2017 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Blue_Lion wrote:What do you think would happen to NA and rifts if a powerful TW/alchemist showed up and started not only arming the true FoM but providing more troops than the CS can shake a stick at?


The CS wins. The CS always wins. Plot armor, combined with narrative bias means the CS wins. If the CS is about to lose something implausible will happen to save them at the last minute. People who generally don't like the CS will side with the CS because they don't like magic. Free Quebec will join the CS and then, if needed, Archie Three will launch an attack at the FoM in this case. Regardless, the CS wins.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:What do you think would happen to NA and rifts if a powerful TW/alchemist showed up and started not only arming the true FoM but providing more troops than the CS can shake a stick at?


The CS wins. The CS always wins. Plot armor, combined with narrative bias means the CS wins. If the CS is about to lose something implausible will happen to save them at the last minute. People who generally don't like the CS will side with the CS because they don't like magic. Free Quebec will join the CS and then, if needed, Archie Three will launch an attack at the FoM in this case. Regardless, the CS wins.
And if they save the CS for their last target?
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Blue_Lion wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:What do you think would happen to NA and rifts if a powerful TW/alchemist showed up and started not only arming the true FoM but providing more troops than the CS can shake a stick at?


The CS wins. The CS always wins. Plot armor, combined with narrative bias means the CS wins. If the CS is about to lose something implausible will happen to save them at the last minute. People who generally don't like the CS will side with the CS because they don't like magic. Free Quebec will join the CS and then, if needed, Archie Three will launch an attack at the FoM in this case. Regardless, the CS wins.
And if they save the CS for their last target?


Then the CS will have wind of the plot before they can target then. The powerful TW/Alchemist will be found dead in his/her lab by CS assassins that may, or may not, be part of the vanguard. The CS will unveil some new device, or new strategy, that crushes the enemy, and all will hail the CS as the ultimate heroes.

We know, absolutely know, that in Rifts, the CS is completely invincible. Any weakness your TW thinks he finds to use against the CS will be accounted for in an undocumented defense that none of us knew about until it was too late. That is how the CS operates from a book perspective and how they operate in universe. They have luck that, literally, is absolutely stupid.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:What do you think would happen to NA and rifts if a powerful TW/alchemist showed up and started not only arming the true FoM but providing more troops than the CS can shake a stick at?


The CS wins. The CS always wins. Plot armor, combined with narrative bias means the CS wins. If the CS is about to lose something implausible will happen to save them at the last minute. People who generally don't like the CS will side with the CS because they don't like magic. Free Quebec will join the CS and then, if needed, Archie Three will launch an attack at the FoM in this case. Regardless, the CS wins.
And if they save the CS for their last target?


Then the CS will have wind of the plot before they can target then. The powerful TW/Alchemist will be found dead in his/her lab by CS assassins that may, or may not, be part of the vanguard. The CS will unveil some new device, or new strategy, that crushes the enemy, and all will hail the CS as the ultimate heroes.

We know, absolutely know, that in Rifts, the CS is completely invincible. Any weakness your TW thinks he finds to use against the CS will be accounted for in an undocumented defense that none of us knew about until it was too late. That is how the CS operates from a book perspective and how they operate in universe. They have luck that, literally, is absolutely stupid.

I get it you hate the CS always winning. Have a nice day.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Here is an example - Assuming the TW is the same one you have been writing about:

So, the TWs plan is to lure a CS group into an ambush... They walk forward... Cultists pop out and hurl vomit grenades and... ... ... Nothing happens. The deadboys gun them down, seemingly unaffected by the grenades. Not hindered at all.

Now... *I* have an explanation for how, but your TW... He has no idea how. Your grenades simply seem... To do nothing... They work against some groups, but not others, and it isn't saves being made. They simply... Don't get affected. You don't know why. These same CS troops also are fond of seemingly performing suicidal attacks. Rushing forward and grabbing minions and then exploding in an AoE for 3d6x10 damage.

Your forces start to make headway... All of a sudden the CS releases its newest weapon! It is some kind of air fighter that is painted in the skull motif, but, strangely, can seem to disappear and reappear at will. It has even been sighted passing through solid objects. Its weapons are so powerful that your strongest vehicles are obliterated in seconds. You don't know why and how, and even things like missiles seem to pass through it... If they can get rid of the force fields at all...

If the plot were in a book it would be stuff like this that pops up because that is how the CS operates.

And *yes* I do hate the CS always winning, but the fact is they always *do* win and it is always a bit implausible.

Seriously though the above are examples of the kinds of things that would happen.

In the first example it would be skelebots dressed as deadboys and mixed in with the regular troops to combat vomit grenades and equipped with self-detonation charges. In the second there would be some ridiculous excuse that the vanguard went off world and captured a Ghost fighter from Phase World and they decided to employ it as a last ditch effort weapon. It is frustrating but, in the world of Rifts, that is what happens. There is something that always pushes the odds in the favor of the CS and unless you create some kind of deus ex machina to combat the deus ex machina the CS already has it ends up being a stalemate.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:What do you think would happen to NA and rifts if a powerful TW/alchemist showed up and started not only arming the true FoM but providing more troops than the CS can shake a stick at?
(If you want numbers lets say 1 million new troops to the FoM within 72 hours and 200-500K per month until stoped.)


That's a lot of troops!

Keep in mind that the CS has something like 2.4+ million Dog Boys, and probably over 3 million SAMAS, not counting old-style SAMs, Grunts, psi-stalkers, and other OCCs.

So that initial surge of 1 million troops might not be as big as it seems.
But with the steady stream of 200k+ troops per month, they could build up massive troop strength pretty quickly.

The first problem they'd have is limited space to house everybody, along with logistics to feed/house everybody, not to mention some kind of coherent command structure that would work on that level.

My suggestion would be instead of sending everybody to help out the FoM, it would be better to find an unoccupied dimension/planet somewhere, and use that as a base. Then start sending in small teams to Rifts Earth to assassinate psychics.
Better yet, find some kind of summonable creature that can be gated to Rifts Earth in huge numbers, that can detect psychics and have a decent shot at killing them.

You'd have trouble, because the True Federation of Magic would face opposition not only from the Coalition, but also from all of the TFoM's other enemies.
Keep in mind that Dunscon's first targets would likely be Dweomer. Then he'd try to capture K'zaa's secrets, and smash Stormsire.
When he does this, other FoM factions would likely start to make at least covert moves against him.

And as he took over the Magic Zone, there are any number of other factions and world powers that might step up and take notice. If Atlantis decided that the newly-buffed TFoM posed a threat to their interests, they might intervene in various ways.
The Vampire Kingdoms might become enemies or allies.
It would lead to quite interesting times!
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

I think a better way to break Rifts might well be to help the Xiticix.
They've already got the numbers; they'd just need some key boosts in a few areas.
Find a way to get them better weapons that they'll actually use, better protection against magic/psychic attacks and long range weapons, and they could be threat to most of the planet.
And if they took over, that'd be the end of pretty much all role-playing opportunities for the setting, which would truly break it.

I mean, if you just want somebody to kill the Coalition, all that has to happen is for Atlantis to decide that it's worth the battle(s).
But then we'd have a setting that's just a planet-wide version of Rifts Atlantis, and that's a perfectly viable setting--not at all broken.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:What do you think would happen to NA and rifts if a powerful TW/alchemist showed up and started not only arming the true FoM but providing more troops than the CS can shake a stick at?
(If you want numbers lets say 1 million new troops to the FoM within 72 hours and 200-500K per month until stoped.)


That's a lot of troops!

Keep in mind that the CS has something like 2.4+ million Dog Boys, and probably over 3 million SAMAS, not counting old-style SAMs, Grunts, psi-stalkers, and other OCCs.

So that initial surge of 1 million troops might not be as big as it seems.
But with the steady stream of 200k+ troops per month, they could build up massive troop strength pretty quickly.

The first problem they'd have is limited space to house everybody, along with logistics to feed/house everybody, not to mention some kind of coherent command structure that would work on that level.

My suggestion would be instead of sending everybody to help out the FoM, it would be better to find an unoccupied dimension/planet somewhere, and use that as a base. Then start sending in small teams to Rifts Earth to assassinate psychics.
Better yet, find some kind of summonable creature that can be gated to Rifts Earth in huge numbers, that can detect psychics and have a decent shot at killing them.

You'd have trouble, because the True Federation of Magic would face opposition not only from the Coalition, but also from all of the TFoM's other enemies.
Keep in mind that Dunscon's first targets would likely be Dweomer. Then he'd try to capture K'zaa's secrets, and smash Stormsire.
When he does this, other FoM factions would likely start to make at least covert moves against him.

And as he took over the Magic Zone, there are any number of other factions and world powers that might step up and take notice. If Atlantis decided that the newly-buffed TFoM posed a threat to their interests, they might intervene in various ways.
The Vampire Kingdoms might become enemies or allies.
It would lead to quite interesting times!

The NPC I use already has another dimensional base. That is where the troops are being transferred from. Although I imagine some one to crank out troops at that rate could be scary.

Seams like you are saying the first million are going to have secure the beach head (FoM).
I know the stages I have happen but was wondering how other people would run something like this
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:Seams like you are saying the first million are going to have secure the beach head (FoM).
I know the stages I have happen but was wondering how other people would run something like this


A lot would depend on what these million+ troops are.
If enough of them are mages, then I wouldn't necessarily have a beach-head; just open 100k new Rifts to a target city/base, and start having troops pour through.
(Or missiles. You could just send missiles through the Rifts.)
The only reason to have a beach-head on Rifts Earth would be if you didn't have enough rift-creators to repeatedly hit-and-run from another dimension.

The main problem with going after the CS (or any other population with enough psychics, plus the chains of command and infrastructure) is that the more massive the attack, the more likely it would be to trigger Clairvoyant visions.
Depending on the nature of the attack, and the goals of the attack, that might not matter much.
Like if you were going to launch 100k short-range missiles at a target that would be utterly destroyed by that attack, then getting a week or so forewarning wouldn't necessarily do much.
The enemy might abandon that city/base/whatever, but you could still destroy the target even with no people in it.
The population might survive, but they'd have lost all their infrastructure (that they couldn't evacuate), and that's a pretty big loss!

Still, that's why I suggested going after psychics first, in small numbers. The key would be to move slowly enough that there wasn't a statistically large chance of a) a vision being tripped at all, b) enough visions being tripped that useful information is obtained, and c) that enough visions are tripped early enough that the useful information could be obtained by somebody in a position to do anything significant about it.

Basically, I'd either try to move so swiftly that the enemy being forewarned didn't matter, OR I'd move so slowly that the metaphorical frog would be boiled before it knew anything was going on.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

HWalsh wrote:Free Quebec will join the CS and then, if needed, Archie Three will launch an attack at the FoM in this case. Regardless, the CS wins.


Honestly, even as the story has advanced... that's likely. Archie still sees himself as the defender of Humanity (even if by "defending" them he wants to rule them) and is distrustful of magic in the extreme, especially after that Mechanoid problem a few years back...

and FQ is still rabidly anti-magic and would NOT want to see the CS fall (knowing theyd be next). They'd come to the aid of the CS.

The real ass-kick here would be Archie. Remember that he's got... (do i even still have that copy of Shemarian Nation i borrowed?) a LOT of Shemarians parked right on the other side of the mountains that the FotM lives in. So as the FoM goes after the Coalition, they find their rear inundated with tens to hundreds of thousands of Shemarians that are QUITE a bit more intelligent than Skelebots and know full well how to deal with magic users - and are impervious to a lot of the disabling spells that work on living things. And they have those baller rail guns.

And they'd never know it was coming until the Shemarians had kicked in the back door, as literally no one has any idea that the Shemarians are Archies or would have any reason to b elieve that the Shemarians would be at all interested in helping the humans. As far as the FoM is concerned....

Their rear is secured by the Shemarians, because anyone who wanted to attack their rear would have to (in their minds) fight through the Shemarian territory tooth and nail.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Free Quebec will join the CS and then, if needed, Archie Three will launch an attack at the FoM in this case. Regardless, the CS wins.


Honestly, even as the story has advanced... that's likely. Archie still sees himself as the defender of Humanity (even if by "defending" them he wants to rule them) and is distrustful of magic in the extreme, especially after that Mechanoid problem a few years back...

and FQ is still rabidly anti-magic and would NOT want to see the CS fall (knowing theyd be next). They'd come to the aid of the CS.

The real ass-kick here would be Archie. Remember that he's got... (do i even still have that copy of Shemarian Nation i borrowed?) a LOT of Shemarians parked right on the other side of the mountains that the FotM lives in. So as the FoM goes after the Coalition, they find their rear inundated with tens to hundreds of thousands of Shemarians that are QUITE a bit more intelligent than Skelebots and know full well how to deal with magic users - and are impervious to a lot of the disabling spells that work on living things. And they have those baller rail guns.

And they'd never know it was coming until the Shemarians had kicked in the back door, as literally no one has any idea that the Shemarians are Archies or would have any reason to b elieve that the Shemarians would be at all interested in helping the humans. As far as the FoM is concerned....

Their rear is secured by the Shemarians, because anyone who wanted to attack their rear would have to (in their minds) fight through the Shemarian territory tooth and nail.


And that is *why* I listed it.

While I *am* sick of the CS always winning, I was pointing out what would happen. They have littered the books with hints that so many people would back the CS is they were going to fall to (non-human and/or magic) forces. The thing about the Vanguard stealing Phase World tech? That is what the Vanguard does. That is the point of the disavowed even. So there are so many openings, without breaking the setting, for the CS to "magically" get allies if they were about to lose, that it is unlikely that they could.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by SereneTsunami »

HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:What do you think would happen to NA and rifts if a powerful TW/alchemist showed up and started not only arming the true FoM but providing more troops than the CS can shake a stick at?


The CS wins. The CS always wins. Plot armor, combined with narrative bias means the CS wins. If the CS is about to lose something implausible will happen to save them at the last minute. People who generally don't like the CS will side with the CS because they don't like magic. Free Quebec will join the CS and then, if needed, Archie Three will launch an attack at the FoM in this case. Regardless, the CS wins.



I think that the CS wins because the CS has all the cards. They are the dominant power on the continent, period. They have greater numbers and they have Lonestar. It was impossible for Tolkeen to win a war against a committed Coalition. Perhaps the Xiticix can hand them a defeat, but that's not guaranteed either. I can understand some level of fustration if you don't care for the choices Mr. Siembieda made in his story, but it is his story, and he clearly gave the Coalition all the tools it needed to be able to do what it did.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

The Xiticix could literally lose 200+ to 1 and kill every man, woman, and child in the Coalition. There are billions of them.

They dont because of how their expansion works. The CS isn't in their claimed territory yet. When the current six hives become 12, though? Ruh Roh Raggy.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:Seams like you are saying the first million are going to have secure the beach head (FoM).
I know the stages I have happen but was wondering how other people would run something like this


A lot would depend on what these million+ troops are.
If enough of them are mages, then I wouldn't necessarily have a beach-head; just open 100k new Rifts to a target city/base, and start having troops pour through.
(Or missiles. You could just send missiles through the Rifts.)
The only reason to have a beach-head on Rifts Earth would be if you didn't have enough rift-creators to repeatedly hit-and-run from another dimension.

The main problem with going after the CS (or any other population with enough psychics, plus the chains of command and infrastructure) is that the more massive the attack, the more likely it would be to trigger Clairvoyant visions.
Depending on the nature of the attack, and the goals of the attack, that might not matter much.
Like if you were going to launch 100k short-range missiles at a target that would be utterly destroyed by that attack, then getting a week or so forewarning wouldn't necessarily do much.
The enemy might abandon that city/base/whatever, but you could still destroy the target even with no people in it.
The population might survive, but they'd have lost all their infrastructure (that they couldn't evacuate), and that's a pretty big loss!

Still, that's why I suggested going after psychics first, in small numbers. The key would be to move slowly enough that there wasn't a statistically large chance of a) a vision being tripped at all, b) enough visions being tripped that useful information is obtained, and c) that enough visions are tripped early enough that the useful information could be obtained by somebody in a position to do anything significant about it.

Basically, I'd either try to move so swiftly that the enemy being forewarned didn't matter, OR I'd move so slowly that the metaphorical frog would be boiled before it knew anything was going on.

LOL now where have I seen some one say something about clairvoyant visions and large scale sneak attacks.

On the summoning you bought up earlier. One of the high end weapons Crazy Hetz makes and gives the TFoM is called a Balrog LRM, after a magical fiery blast a balrog(the balrog only appears after the fire blast has dispated even volies) is released where the missile exploded. That missile has its own one two punch.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Mack »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The Xiticix could literally lose 200+ to 1 and kill every man, woman, and child in the Coalition. There are billions of them.

In 109PA the highest estimate is only 50 million.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Mack wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The Xiticix could literally lose 200+ to 1 and kill every man, woman, and child in the Coalition. There are billions of them.

In 109PA the highest estimate is only 50 million.


In Aftermath, the hives are described as reaching at least a full capacity.
The hive capacity is >200 million bugs.
There are six hives.

Have things changed since that book?
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Mack »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Mack wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The Xiticix could literally lose 200+ to 1 and kill every man, woman, and child in the Coalition. There are billions of them.

In 109PA the highest estimate is only 50 million.


In Aftermath, the hives are described as reaching at least a full capacity.
The hive capacity is >200 million bugs.
There are six hives.

Have things changed since that book?


Aftermath also says the hives have grown according to early estimates. Xiticix Invasion's highest estimate for 109PA is 50 million.

Looks like we found a conflict. Go figure.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Mack wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Mack wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The Xiticix could literally lose 200+ to 1 and kill every man, woman, and child in the Coalition. There are billions of them.

In 109PA the highest estimate is only 50 million.


In Aftermath, the hives are described as reaching at least a full capacity.
The hive capacity is >200 million bugs.
There are six hives.

Have things changed since that book?


Aftermath also says the hives have grown according to early estimates. Xiticix Invasion's highest estimate for 109PA is 50 million.


Xiticix Invasion's highest estimate?
Or the CS's highest estimate in XI?
And what's the exact quote in Aftermath that you're referring to?
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Mack »

The CS's highest estimate in XI. Is there another page that lists actual numbers?
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Mack wrote:The CS's highest estimate in XI. Is there another page that lists actual numbers?


viewtopic.php?p=1909305#p1909305
Killer Cyborg wrote:Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs.

P. 85 paints a much less chilling picture, estimating that there are (as of 105 PA) 3-4 million xiticix. The projected rate of growth would put their total population at 50 million by 110 PA.
These estimates, however, are in-game estimations made by the Coalition States; they only show what the CS believes to be the truth.
They do not over-ride the previous population numbers that come from the writers themselves.

And remember that the 450 million Xiticix estimate is based on the information in Xiticix Invasion, which took place in 105 PA.
In Aftermath, set 109 PA, (p. 69), it mentions:
Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%.
Which means that as of 109 PA, each of the six Xiticix colonies has reached at least the 200 million population mark, making their total numbers a minimum of 1.2 Billion.


For what it's worth, I mentioned the 1.2 billion minimum to KS once, and he said something like 'that sounds about right."
That doesn't make it official, but I tend to think it means he pictures a lot more of them than 50 million.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Mack wrote:The CS's highest estimate in XI. Is there another page that lists actual numbers?


viewtopic.php?p=1909305#p1909305
Killer Cyborg wrote:Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs.

P. 85 paints a much less chilling picture, estimating that there are (as of 105 PA) 3-4 million xiticix. The projected rate of growth would put their total population at 50 million by 110 PA.
These estimates, however, are in-game estimations made by the Coalition States; they only show what the CS believes to be the truth.
They do not over-ride the previous population numbers that come from the writers themselves.

And remember that the 450 million Xiticix estimate is based on the information in Xiticix Invasion, which took place in 105 PA.
In Aftermath, set 109 PA, (p. 69), it mentions:
Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%.
Which means that as of 109 PA, each of the six Xiticix colonies has reached at least the 200 million population mark, making their total numbers a minimum of 1.2 Billion.


For what it's worth, I mentioned the 1.2 billion minimum to KS once, and he said something like 'that sounds about right."
That doesn't make it official, but I tend to think it means he pictures a lot more of them than 50 million.


We can also assume standard growth so if Deluth started at 300,000,000 and broke into 6.
Reducing its population to 50,000,000.
Then it raised to 200,000,000 by 110 P.A. We assume a similar growth curve in the other hives, we are looking at 200,000,000 x 6 and we get 1.2 Billion, which seems to be correct numerically.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Eagle »

The bugs have two distinct disadvantages. One is that everybody hates them. The CS, Lazlo, Dweomer, Archie, Atlantis. If their numbers get too out of hand, everybody jumps in. Everybody with real manpower has a plan to deal with the Xiticix, and they're all starting to say "hey maybe it's time to turn my attention to them".

The second problem that the bugs have is that all the people who hate them have some ability to strike where they can't be attacked back. The Coalition has LRMs. Archie has robots that nobody can trace. Mages can turn invisible and teleport and things like that. If you're willing to take your time and burn a lot of resources, you can hit the Xiticix with relative impunity.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Axelmania »

Killer Cyborg wrote:probably over 3 million SAMAS, not counting old-style SAMs

Anyone know where I can get these numbers for the new SAMs? All I remember hearing was 5 million old ones in storage or something like that.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:probably over 3 million SAMAS, not counting old-style SAMs

Anyone know where I can get these numbers for the new SAMs? All I remember hearing was 5 million old ones in storage or something like that.


No official numbers of new-style SAMs. All we really have to go on is that there were 3.2 old-style SAMs that were put into semi-retirement when the new models came out, and that half of those semi-retired SAMs went to the ISS.

From there, I extrapolate that if the CS had 3.2 million old-style SAMs, they probably have roughly as many new SAMs, and enough pilots to pilot most or all of them.
Quite possibly, they have more than enough pilots for all of them, although some of the pilots may be Grunts or other OCCs, not necessarily dedicated SAMAS Pilots.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Eagle wrote:The second problem that the bugs have is that all the people who hate them have some ability to strike where they can't be attacked back. The Coalition has LRMs. Archie has robots that nobody can trace. Mages can turn invisible and teleport and things like that. If you're willing to take your time and burn a lot of resources, you can hit the Xiticix with relative impunity.


Kind of.
What you describe is a potential problem, but not necessarily all of the bugs' defenses, weapons, breeds, and general capabilities have yet been detailed.
There could be a giant TK forcefield that the queen uses to protect the hive when there are incoming missiles, for example. There's nothing stating or indicating that such a thing exists, BUT we do know that Palladium likes to trot out new stuff before and during a war.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Blue_Lion wrote:What do you think would happen to NA and rifts if a powerful TW/alchemist showed up and started not only arming the true FoM but providing more troops than the CS can shake a stick at?
(If you want numbers lets say 1 million new troops to the FoM within 72 hours and 200-500K per month until stoped.)

That depends on a variety of factors, but...

What is the composition of the troops? How will these troops (aside from numbers) compare to the CS (or other NA powers) troops? Same goes for equipment, a 1million man army armed with "NG" level equipment is much different than one with "GAW" or "Chipwell" level stuff. That has to be considered to. Just an blanket statement about numbers without much context means you could end up with a variety of opinions.

How much lead time does the CS have with regard to this information? Can the CS (or another NA power) actually take per-emptive action before any of these troops can dig in proper? IINM the CS doesn't even know where TFoM is located, which likely means the CS isn't going to be able to do anything about the build-up. At which point the balance of power can tip to being more "balanced" given the CS is like the 300-lb gorrilla in the room of NA (unlike just about everywhere else in the world that isn't unified). What will result I suspect is loose (at minimum) alliances forming around the CS and TFoM. It might also scare some other blocks into forming their own alliances.

What is the time frame for this event (Pre-Tolkeen, Post-Tolkeen, Post-MiF/HoH, etc?)? This is important because it can determine who the available actors are, what their situations are, and how they might respond. Ex. a CS involved in the Tolkeen/FQ-Wars likely would not want to start a 3rd one given the difficulties they would be having).

As KillerCyborg mentioned, you have logistics to consider to. Though if you can supply and move such a large army from Point A to Point B, they can likely handle the logistics (they move into TFoM territory and setup shop). Integrating their Command & Control likely means the smaller group gets absorbed into the larger one since they likely already have such a C&C setup. Weather TFoM members would like the idea of losing their prestige (sense they are likely to be on lower rungs in such a large group) and how they take it could be factor to consider.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I think a better way to break Rifts might well be to help the Xiticix.
They've already got the numbers; they'd just need some key boosts in a few areas.
Find a way to get them better weapons that they'll actually use, better protection against magic/psychic attacks and long range weapons, and they could be threat to most of the planet.
And if they took over, that'd be the end of pretty much all role-playing opportunities for the setting, which would truly break it.

The Xitixic are a potential danger as is, IINM they are pegged as being possibly one of the great world threats in SB2's prophecy (also mentioned in WB23 IINM). Granted their numbers are what make them such a threat.

In terms of weapons development the Xitixic already have TW-like gear. So a major conflict with non-Xits in NA might result in them creating/adopting new TW weapons since we don't know what inspired them to develop their TK Rifle (and shooters) to begin with. One might start seeing Xit TW-like gear appearing as a result of pressure either due to them attempting to reverse engineer recovered materials or just haven't been seen previously (like comparing Xits in RMB to WB23) or their attempt at developing a response to X pressure (WB23 essentially gives them body armor sections).

Lets not forget that the Xit's TK Rifle has a range of 4000ft, that means they outclass most regular infantry in terms of reach (since most/common weapons top out at 2000ft in this area, unless you give them railguns or mini-missile launchers). Damage isn't to bad at the infantry level either (for stock weapons) IINM. Now the Xits will have to deal with 'bots/PA/vehicles, in which case they aren't as well equipped (or durable in comparison) which could spur the Xits to develop a more effective response.

The Bugs senses can also help counter some magic/psionic abilities (their vision makes them immune/neuters Blind Flash Spell for ex). Though evolutionary pressures might see the bugs natural defenses (ME/PE based) increase due to weeding out the weak ones. So in the longer run, you might end up making the Xits more potent as you weed out the ones who can't hold up (though it depends on who gets to fertilize the queens eggs, AFAIK/IIRC it isn't stated...). Encounters with magic/psionics might also result in development/deployment (of previously unknown) Xit TW-like gear to help counter.
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Re: Breaking Rifts.

Unread post by Mack »

HWalsh wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Mack wrote:The CS's highest estimate in XI. Is there another page that lists actual numbers?

Spoiler:
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1909305#p1909305
Killer Cyborg wrote:Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs.

P. 85 paints a much less chilling picture, estimating that there are (as of 105 PA) 3-4 million xiticix. The projected rate of growth would put their total population at 50 million by 110 PA.
These estimates, however, are in-game estimations made by the Coalition States; they only show what the CS believes to be the truth.
They do not over-ride the previous population numbers that come from the writers themselves.

And remember that the 450 million Xiticix estimate is based on the information in Xiticix Invasion, which took place in 105 PA.
In Aftermath, set 109 PA, (p. 69), it mentions:
Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%.
Which means that as of 109 PA, each of the six Xiticix colonies has reached at least the 200 million population mark, making their total numbers a minimum of 1.2 Billion.


For what it's worth, I mentioned the 1.2 billion minimum to KS once, and he said something like 'that sounds about right."
That doesn't make it official, but I tend to think it means he pictures a lot more of them than 50 million.


We can also assume standard growth so if Deluth started at 300,000,000 and broke into 6.
Reducing its population to 50,000,000.
Then it raised to 200,000,000 by 110 P.A. We assume a similar growth curve in the other hives, we are looking at 200,000,000 x 6 and we get 1.2 Billion, which seems to be correct numerically.


I'm not convinced that the Duluth hive was at 300,000,000 when it first split.

Why? Because of this statement on XI p23 "This has yet to happen on Rifts Earth. The five that have grown from the original hive were created as a direct choice of that colony's Elder Queen." So the previously described process wasn't in play when they split, and we don't know the size of the Duluth hive at the time.

Further, Aftermath p69 (right column) says the new hives (beyond the existing six) are because of opportunities of unclaimed land, not due to internal population pressures.

And finally, Aftermath p69 (left column) says "that in a matter of a generation or two, the Xiticix will be on their doorstep and number into the billions." Thus they can't be in the billions now. (And by context, I presume the "generation or two" to be a human generation, not a Xiticix generation.)
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