True Samurai

[DarkonSlayer]

I don't thing it was intentional, but is there a reason that the True samurai can not fight any MDC armored opponents in melee, without breaking there anti technology beliefs.
I really can't believe that the FAQ would tell the GM that he or she would have to give very rare specialty weapons just so that a true samurai PC can fight anyone that is wearing MDC armor.

[drewkitty ~..~]

All "true" samurai will have a pair of "true" samurai swords (katana and wakizashi). These swords are minor rune weapons….

This is found on page 45 of Rifts Japan, and the stats for these weapons on the next page.
In the equipment section it says that they get rune K&W.

Note that it is only the Pre-Rifts Daishō that are horribly rare.

[Johnathan]

I'm sorry... but... what?

I had to reread your OP a few times in order to understand the question. However, I think you're asking how it's possible for True Samurai to be able to fight tech opponents at range without violating their anti-technology belief system, correct?

Admittedly, the samurai class does seem to favor a rather melee centric character. However, with that being said, the samurai are not JUST Japanese swordsmen. Samurai were often not JUST trained in the daisho, but were also, traditionally, very skilled bowmen and archers. Granted, they would still be archaic by RIFTS standards, but having an enchanted bow that might be able to fire magic bolts of power is not unheard of either... or a techno-wizard made bow. Wouldn't violate their beliefs since the weapon functions based on magic...

... just a couple ideas.

[glitterboy2098]

a True Samurai in rifts has MDC magical armor, MDC magical swords, and a number of special abilities. they can hold their own.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Ah, okay, I think I see the problem the Original Poster has. The issue is a True Samurai fighting an "armored" opponent in melee combat. Most of us think of the rune swords, but the write-up on page 46 does cause a potential problem. There are two areas that mention damage. The first is in a sub-heading of "Nearly Indestructible" while the second is directly under the "Damage" heading.

The damage under "Nearly Indestructible" lists the damage in flat M.D. Based on the section this is located, and describing how other rune weapons can destroy one, the damage listed in this section would seem to only apply when being used to try and destroy another rune sword.

However, the other damage listed lower down becomes the real problem. For the Katana and Wakizashi, both inflict S.D.C. to mortal foes, and only inflict M.D. to Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Beings. As such, according to this second heading, if you fought a human wearing Coalition Dead Boy armor, you'd never be able to hurt him with your rune daisho as he's a mortal foe, and that means the weapons only inflict S.D.C.

I think most people simply allow the rune daisho to inflict M.D. either at all times, or appropriate damage to the target (e.g. M.D. to any M.D.C. target). But that doesn't seem to be what's actually written. Rifts isn't my system of choice, so if anyone else can provide a more detailed answer to solve this problem, have at it. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Johnathan]

Greetings and Salutations. Ah, okay, I think I see the problem the Original Poster has. The issue is a True Samurai fighting an "armored" opponent in melee combat. Most of us think of the rune swords, but the write-up on page 46 does cause a potential problem. There are two areas that mention damage. The first is in a sub-heading of "Nearly Indestructible" while the second is directly under the "Damage" heading.

The damage under "Nearly Indestructible" lists the damage in flat M.D. Based on the section this is located, and describing how other rune weapons can destroy one, the damage listed in this section would seem to only apply when being used to try and destroy another rune sword.

However, the other damage listed lower down becomes the real problem. For the Katana and Wakizashi, both inflict S.D.C. to mortal foes, and only inflict M.D. to Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Beings. As such, according to this second heading, if you fought a human wearing Coalition Dead Boy armor, you'd never be able to hurt him with your rune daisho as he's a mortal foe, and that means the weapons only inflict S.D.C.

I think most people simply allow the rune daisho to inflict M.D. either at all times, or appropriate damage to the target (e.g. M.D. to any M.D.C. target). But that doesn't seem to be what's actually written. Rifts isn't my system of choice, so if anyone else can provide a more detailed answer to solve this problem, have at it. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Oh. Dear...

That is quite the quandary!

Well then! This would require some creative thinking on the part of the character. If we were to stick to the strict ruling in the books.

It does strike me as a tad on the odd side to be sure! Considering Zanji-Shinjiken Ryu is a hand-to-hand form that is specifically designed to kill. What a contradiction (shock... ).

Thinking upon it there are basically three options.

One - The GM simply rules that the weapons inflict M.D. Across the board regardless of opponent.

Two - The character can choose to have the weapons inflict M.D. or S.D.C. Again, this would have to be a GM decision.

Three - The character has to find other ways to deal with their opponents without their trademark weapons. Sorry about your bad luck. There are, of course, other ways of dealing with opponents beyond destroying their armor (flip/throw, disarming them, etc.).

A LOGICAL GM will probably pick option 1 or 2...

[dreicunan]

Based on the examples of greater daishos, it would be reasonable to say that the weapons inflict half their MD to non-supernatural, or even just 2d6 if one wants to keep newer sets weaker than the daisho of the storm.

[RockJock]

I've always ignored the SDC limit when fighting a tech based MDC. Not in the rules, just made sense.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If you combine the stats from both of the damage rating listings, ignoring the pre-rifts stats so it is not complicated, you end up with the swords of the daisho just inflict damage to whatever they strike. If it is MDC they do MD, if SDC they do SD. It is all the same numbers, even if the tag lines change with what is being struck.

There the figment of a problem is blown away in the light of intelligent discussion.

[eliakon]

If you combine the stats from both of the damage rating listings, ignoring the pre-rifts stats so it is not complicated, you end up with the swords of the daisho just inflict damage to whatever they strike. If it is MDC they do MD, if SDC they do SD. It is all the same numbers, even if the tag lines change with what is being struck.

There the figment of a problem is blown away in the light of intelligent discussion.

You do realize that its not a "figment" if it actually exists right?
Actually existing is sort part of the definition of not being a figment in point of fact.

And its not "blown away in the light of Intelligent discussion" to simply posit that a house rule that works at your table solves everything for everyone at every table.
That simply says that your solution works for you in your game.


As I interpret the text I see it as the swords do
6d6/4d6 MDC unless used against a mortal foe. Then it does 6d6/4d6 SDC
Unless you have an ancient set
then the damage is
1d6x10/1d4x10 MDC against everything but mortals.

I come to this conclusion by interpreting that the damage in "Nearly Indestructible" is the base damage, but that it is modified by the damage in the next section.
The statement about doing 6d6/4d6 MDC against Creatures of Magic and Supernatural beings, when it already does that, is, to me not just a restatement... but a limitation.
They do that amount of damage and only do that amount of damage. Even if the creature normally takes double damage from rune weapons for instance.

Just my interpretation of the text of course.

[ShadowLogan]

If you combine the stats from both of the damage rating listings, ignoring the pre-rifts stats so it is not complicated, you end up with the swords of the daisho just inflict damage to whatever they strike. If it is MDC they do MD, if SDC they do SD. It is all the same numbers, even if the tag lines change with what is being struck.

There the figment of a problem is blown away in the light of intelligent discussion.

I don't think you even have to go that far.

The Daisho are considered Rune Weapons (Minor category). Looking at what would be considered the "low level sword" (mentioned on pg45) version on pg118-9: "Authentic samurai swords are considered priceless, inflict mega-damage, and are usually passed on from generation to generation of samurai." Not to mention as Rune Weapons they always do a minimum of 4d6MD on Rifts Earth (WB2 pg127). This all leads to be think that the first damaging listing is correct and the 2nd one is I have no idea what it refers to.

[drewkitty ~..~]

first thing is that throwing out the pre-rifts daisho is throwing out "Things you have to find in the game." out of the discussion. And it make things simpler for when talking about a char's starting equipment.
KISSP

The text first lists that it does 6D6 MD (K)/ 4D6 MD (W) to start off with.

Then it lists the katana doing 6d6 SD to mortal (SDC) foes and MD to MDC foes. And the Wakizashi doing 4D6 SD to mortal foes and 4D6 MD to MDC foes.

now taking all the information there and COMBINING it so each is represented in the conclusion you get….
if it struck by the Katana it does 6d6 damage (all the D6 numbers match up across the three listings)
if it is struck by the Wakizashi it does 4d6 damage (all the D6 numbers match up across the three listings)
if what is struck is SDC the sword does SD, and if the sword strikes something that is MDC it does MD.

Why do you all have to make things so <descriptive adverb> complicated?*rhetorical*

SL
Yep, that is for the basic, greater, and greatest rune weapons, as presented in RWB2.

Apparently minor Rune weapons are different.

Thou, the interesting question that brings up is how do these minor rune weapons convert to SDC settings?

[Prysus]

The Daisho are considered Rune Weapons (Minor category). Looking at what would be considered the "low level sword" (mentioned on pg45) version on pg118-9: "Authentic samurai swords are considered priceless, inflict mega-damage, and are usually passed on from generation to generation of samurai."

Greetings and Salutations. Nice find.

Not to mention as Rune Weapons they always do a minimum of 4d6MD on Rifts Earth (WB2 pg127).

Irrelevant as these are different. They're "considered" lesser rune weapons, which means they're not actually. The samurai swords have notable differences, such as only being "nearly indestructible" instead of the normal rune weapon version. Listed differences take precedent over general rules.

This all leads to be think that the first damaging listing is correct and the 2nd one is I have no idea what it refers to.

The first one is only the general damage listing if you ignore what section it is in, the section about being "nearly indestructible" (not general damage) and how samurai swords can damage other samurai swords.

As a counter to the above section of 118 and 119, look at page 39. These are "Greater & Greatest Daisho Rune Swords." The Daisho if thr Relentless Warrior has an ability: "Extra Damage:" with the listed ability "always inflict mega-damage (including against non-supernatural M.D.C. body armor and robots)," which would mean this is NOT the standard.

My honest opinion is that it was changed somewhere along the way and then suffered from poor editing. Farewell and safe journeys.

[DarkonSlayer]

Thank you for all the reply's, I only bring this up because there is a FAQ about this that confirms my dilemma.
And my current GM is really new to running the Rifts, and has chosen to follow the FAQ.

This is from Palladium FAQ:
Question: On page 46 of Rifts Japan it lays out all the stats for True Samurai Swords. However it list two different sets of data for damages (all MDC or SDC to mortals and MD to monsters).
Which ones do you use?
Answer: The "standard" true samurai minor rune swords only inflict MD to supernatural creatures and creatures of magic. you run into a guy in mdc body armor, you're in some trouble. There are a couple of the more powerful rune daisho that will inflict MD to inanimate things.

I am just wondering if there can be a way to get this FAQ re evaluated.

[Mack]

The FAQ was written a decade ago, by volunteers in many cases. It's a decent reference but not absolute. If memory serves there's a stickied topic on the FAQ that speaks to its canonicity.

Regardless, remind your GM of Palladium Games' rules 1 and 2:
1) Have fun.
2) If you don't like a rule, change it.

[Johnathan]

Thank you for all the reply's, I only bring this up because there is a FAQ about this that confirms my dilemma.
And my current GM is really new to running the Rifts, and has chosen to follow the FAQ.

This is from Palladium FAQ:
Question: On page 46 of Rifts Japan it lays out all the stats for True Samurai Swords. However it list two different sets of data for damages (all MDC or SDC to mortals and MD to monsters).
Which ones do you use?
Answer: The "standard" true samurai minor rune swords only inflict MD to supernatural creatures and creatures of magic. you run into a guy in mdc body armor, you're in some trouble. There are a couple of the more powerful rune daisho that will inflict MD to inanimate things.

I am just wondering if there can be a way to get this FAQ re evaluated.

You. Are. Lying.

This is a travesty! Way to turn a relatively amazing OCC into a sham! Your GM needs to change that ruling. Seriously. That's just embarrassingly lame. Relegating the Samurai OCC to basically ONLY being able to use their trademark weapons against creatures of magic and supernatural creatures.

Lame.

[Aku-Arkaine]

I don't really get the anti-technology oath of true samurai in the first place. During the Feudal Era of Japan the tanegashima was the height of weapon technology, and the samurai readily adopted it. The restriction makes no sense from a historical point of view.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The way I treat the on-line FAQ is that it is non-canon and ignor it as such.

[Blue_Lion]

while there dasio may not inflict MDC against tech, they could use other magical weapons that would.

[dreicunan]

Thank you for all the reply's, I only bring this up because there is a FAQ about this that confirms my dilemma.
And my current GM is really new to running the Rifts, and has chosen to follow the FAQ.

This is from Palladium FAQ:
Question: On page 46 of Rifts Japan it lays out all the stats for True Samurai Swords. However it list two different sets of data for damages (all MDC or SDC to mortals and MD to monsters).
Which ones do you use?
Answer: The "standard" true samurai minor rune swords only inflict MD to supernatural creatures and creatures of magic. you run into a guy in mdc body armor, you're in some trouble. There are a couple of the more powerful rune daisho that will inflict MD to inanimate things.

I am just wondering if there can be a way to get this FAQ re evaluated.

You. Are. Lying.

This is a travesty! Way to turn a relatively amazing OCC into a sham! Your GM needs to change that ruling. Seriously. That's just embarrassingly lame. Relegating the Samurai OCC to basically ONLY being able to use their trademark weapons against creatures of magic and supernatural creatures.

Lame.

World Book 8 is quite clear on the matter; true Daisho inflict MD to supernatural beings and creatures of magic, otherwise they inflict SDC. As written, that means that a human from Wormwood who ends up in Japan would not be damaged by the weapons of a normal Daisho.

Now, as I mentioned above, I could certainly see ruling that they inflict something to non-magical, non-supernatural MDC, but it is in no way "lame" for the GM to follow what the book says! Some of the weapons in Rifts Japan inflict always inflict MD (like the Ten-Thousand Strength Nunchaku or Whirlwind Naginata). The Sohei Staff does SD against mortal and MD against supernatural (but not non-magical MDC). the Tanto of Hellish Poison inflicts SD to SDC beings and MD to supernatural beings and MDC materials, but strictly speaking as written does NOT inflict MD to creatures of magic (though I'm sure plenty of people have decided that it does and considered that to be an editing oversight).The Greater Daisho that do inflict MD to tech MDC have it specifically spelled out, and it isn't always the same as what they inflict to supernatural MDC. In light of that, it is entirely reasonable to assume that the rules for the Daisho were intended to work the way that they are written.

If one doesn't like that, it is also reasonable to make a house-rule that they can inflict MD to any kind of MDC.

[boring7]

Everybody knows magic archer samurai is best samurai anyway. Get some broken-as-heck MD bow, throw in some cheater's MD arrows, and rain down hell in the form of dozens of arrows per round.

/tangential

Honestly, it *is* silly, simply because of the anti-tech oath. The swords implicitly have the same attitude as the samurai towards things, so if the Samurai faces MDC technological body armor it will destroy that abomination of sinful science with great fury and anger.

But anyways...yeah you have to get a house rule. The FAQ sounds wrong-headed but I can even see the inane logic behind it. The graduate college of "everybody knows" says that Samurai were blown away by superior technology (specifically the Mongolian Leather Armor that broke katanas) so having trouble with deadboy armor makes the worst, stupidest kind of sense.

Note: this same brand of logic is why Triax tanks are in South America. Because Triax is from Germany and Nazis hiding in South America after WWII. Recognizing these patterns are just one part of why all the "grimdark and gritty" games I play end up being comedies.

[ShadowLogan]

Yep, that is for the basic, greater, and greatest rune weapons, as presented in RWB2.

Apparently minor Rune weapons are different.

Thou, the interesting question that brings up is how do these minor rune weapons convert to SDC settings?

I'd be less concerned with conversion to SDC setting conversion at this point since one can probably use the basic conversion "rules" for whatever they work out as the correct stats.

But Minor Rune Weapons are 'considered' to be Lesser (or Basic) Rune Weapons. It also the life force (per WB2) that makes the item indestructible, but typically one does not use human life forces to empower rune items but rather SN/CoM or high level magical practitioners (for humans), which might explain the "nearly" aspect (IDK).

Irrelevant as these are different. They're "considered" lesser rune weapons, which means they're not actually. The samurai swords have notable differences, such as only being "nearly indestructible" instead of the normal rune weapon version. Listed differences take precedent over general rules.

I agree, but the issue is we have two sets of damage listings and are trying to determine which is the correct one. So there is precedent from WB2 for the first listing to be used. While WB8 provides examples of higher level Rune weapons w/dual damage ratings, but that could be seen as a function of their higher order nature.

I found an NPC in Rifts: SoT6 (pg159-60: Goesumi, a Dragon Hatchling) that hails from Japan wielding a Pre-Rifts Daisho. In the Weapons section (pg60) it lists the Diasho, but makes no mention of the dual nature of the weapons' damage (as in 2nd listing in WB8), and just treats it as a singlular nature (as in the 1st listing in WB8). Now I have to admit these are the "short notes" for equipment so details might have gotten left out, but a critical data perspective it would seem to support the first damage lisitng being used as opposed to the second (ignoring the actual die code listed, which seems to point to second).

AFAIK that is the only Daisho example outside of WB8, but I could be wrong (my Rifts collection is far from complete, and NPCs aren't something I readily read).

As a counter to the above section of 118 and 119, look at page 39. These are "Greater & Greatest Daisho Rune Swords." The Daisho if thr Relentless Warrior has an ability: "Extra Damage:" with the listed ability "always inflict mega-damage (including against non-supernatural M.D.C. body armor and robots)," which would mean this is NOT the standard.

It should be noted though that you pointing toward Greater & Greater level Rune weapons. Which per WB2 have additional Powers that lesser do not have access to, obviously these are custom Powers in WB8 examples (but this is not unheard of either IINM Megaversally speaking).

But pg39 also states "All samurai warriors are gifted with powerful magical katanas and wakizashis (the Daisho, or 'paired swords'). So maybe what we really have here is a bad editing job for two different types of magical Daisho's on pg44-6?