Scarry non leathal weapon.

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Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Was running a game this week and one of my stock home brewed non-lethal weapons killed a player because refused to remove his helmet.

Here is what happened.
They where exploring a old factory in some ruins to stop a cult from summoning an AI They where in a big opened room with a cat walk on their left over looking it to the left.
The cat walk ran between two open control rooms and over a large rusted conveyor belt system. To the right was a open door and they could here chanting. The party decides to advance on the door, two players make a perception check to see 6 robed men sundenly apear on the cat walk and throw mucus yellow/green colored balls at them. I tell one of the players they kind of look like puke grenades.

Player A "Puke grenades helmets off!!!!"
Player B "I ain't taking my helmet off so the GM can head shot me."

Then they go into a short Out of charter tangent.
Basically the party tells him he is in new style CS body armor and will die if he does not remove his helmet by drowning in his own puke, and that I only do called shots if they do them. He still refuses to remove his helmet, and dies after the fight is over because his helmet is full of puke and he cant breath and he will not take it off even after the fight. He then calls me a killer GM. :shock:

Here is the weapon that killed him.

Crazy Hetz Puke grenade.
name-Crazy Hetz Puke grenade
Class-Single use TW
Skill used-WP targeting
DMG-None
Power supply- single use TW
Power consumption- NA
DC value- 1 MDC
Special features-any one in 20' of it when it blast must save vs magic or spend the next 1d4 minutes affected by projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea. Loose half actions reduce spd to 1d4 -5 to strike parry and dodge. Note this affect will happen even if the person has never eaten it magically permantly creates the puke and poop.
market value- 2500 cr
This non lethal TW weapon is banned in Lazlo, Kingsdale and merc town. Any clothes or armor worn will need a good cleaning. Note any one wearing a anything covering the face or mouth will need to remove it be able to breath also enclosed helmets and gas mask may also resault in being blinded by your own puke.
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Mack »

Don't think it should have killed him. At some point, I would expect the following exchange:

GM: You puked in your helmet.
Player: I keep it on.
GM: It's clogging your nose and mouth.
Player: I keep it on.
GM: You can't breathe, you're drowning/suffocating in puke.
Player: I keep it on.
GM: You're getting tunnel vision and blacking out, you fall to your knees...
Player: I TAKE IT OFF, I TAKE IT OFF!!!
--or--
Player: I lay on my back, so the puke sloshes behind my head allowing me to breathe...

Now, if the player still refused after that exchange, then there's not much the GM can do.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by camk4evr »

Aren't the new CS style body armours environmentally sealed?
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

camk4evr wrote:Aren't the new CS style body armours environmentally sealed?


The old style armors are too. Only the Dog Boy Varaties are not.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Mack »

camk4evr wrote:Aren't the new CS style body armours environmentally sealed?

Many (possibly most) magic penetrates environmental armor.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Jefffar »

I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Luvia »

Jefffar wrote:I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.

Maybe they dint like him?
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Mack »

Luvia wrote:
Jefffar wrote:I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.

Maybe they dint like him?

Player 1: *gurgle
Player 2: I call dibs on his rifle and scope... I've always liked that scope.
Player 1: *gur-gugle...
Player 3: Cool, I want his hoverbike... ya know, if we never open his armor then we'll never have to smell his corpse.
Player 1: *Thunk on the ground*
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by 13eowulf »

Mack wrote:
Luvia wrote:
Jefffar wrote:I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.

Maybe they dint like him?

Player 1: *gurgle
Player 2: I call dibs on his rifle and scope... I've always liked that scope.
Player 1: *gur-gugle...
Player 3: Cool, I want his hoverbike... ya know, if we never open his armor then we'll never have to smell his corpse.
Player 1: *Thunk on the ground*


:lol:

Mack wrote:Don't think it should have killed him. At some point, I would expect the following exchange:

GM: You puked in your helmet.
Player: I keep it on.
GM: It's clogging your nose and mouth.
Player: I keep it on.
GM: You can't breathe, you're drowning/suffocating in puke.
Player: I keep it on.
GM: You're getting tunnel vision and blacking out, you fall to your knees...
Player: I TAKE IT OFF, I TAKE IT OFF!!!
--or--
Player: I lay on my back, so the puke sloshes behind my head allowing me to breathe...

Now, if the player still refused after that exchange, then there's not much the GM can do.


THAT said, I didnt see anything in the OP about a save vs Magic. While I get Magic can penetrate EBA, there should still be a save. No save AND penetrating EBA, that does potentially creep into "Killer GM" adjacent territory, in my option.
But there could have been a save that just wasnt mentioned, which would alter my opinion.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Greepnak »

It's a huge burden at times on me as GM how presence of mind to do the little things like that are vacant in players when they get a little narrowly focused on mechanics that have dice rolls specifically attached to them and forget it's all abstraction to support a storytelling-based game.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Jefffar wrote:I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.

The only one with first aid did not want to do first aid when they got he helmet off. Basically they never cleared the air way.
I gave him several warnings as did the other players that he need to take it off one even tried to remove it while he was still awake and he threatened him with a weapon.
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

13eowulf wrote:
Mack wrote:
Luvia wrote:
Jefffar wrote:I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.

Maybe they dint like him?

Player 1: *gurgle
Player 2: I call dibs on his rifle and scope... I've always liked that scope.
Player 1: *gur-gugle...
Player 3: Cool, I want his hoverbike... ya know, if we never open his armor then we'll never have to smell his corpse.
Player 1: *Thunk on the ground*


:lol:

Mack wrote:Don't think it should have killed him. At some point, I would expect the following exchange:

GM: You puked in your helmet.
Player: I keep it on.
GM: It's clogging your nose and mouth.
Player: I keep it on.
GM: You can't breathe, you're drowning/suffocating in puke.
Player: I keep it on.
GM: You're getting tunnel vision and blacking out, you fall to your knees...
Player: I TAKE IT OFF, I TAKE IT OFF!!!
--or--
Player: I lay on my back, so the puke sloshes behind my head allowing me to breathe...

Now, if the player still refused after that exchange, then there's not much the GM can do.


THAT said, I didnt see anything in the OP about a save vs Magic. While I get Magic can penetrate EBA, there should still be a save. No save AND penetrating EBA, that does potentially creep into "Killer GM" adjacent territory, in my option.
But there could have been a save that just wasnt mentioned, which would alter my opinion.

The weapon wright up specifies save vs magic or suffer the affects.
The weapons is not intended to kill just cause an penalty and have a annoying story mechanic. That was the first time one died to it.

I give human players without internal air supply 15 rounds to(3min 45 sec) get off their helmet before they pass out. They also get progressive warnings about difficulty breathing.
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Sat May 06, 2017 10:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Luvia »

Mack wrote:
Luvia wrote:
Jefffar wrote:I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.

Maybe they dint like him?

Player 1: *gurgle
Player 2: I call dibs on his rifle and scope... I've always liked that scope.
Player 1: *gur-gugle...
Player 3: Cool, I want his hoverbike... ya know, if we never open his armor then we'll never have to smell his corpse.
Player 1: *Thunk on the ground*


Few shots from a plasma cannon and cremated.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Greepnak »

I have this concern with a commonly available TW creation the Agony Whip.

Agony itself is craaaaaaay cray if you want to shut a player down with the defenses of course being first parry then save vs magic 12 which isnt too hard unless the character is of lower tier.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by dreicunan »

Of all the characters by player stubbornness and stupidity that I have read about, this one takes the cake.

I actually put an anti-metagaming mechanic into my games to deal with players who were insisting on having their characters do things like this (e.g. flat out telling me "my character is keeping his puke-filled helmet on because I think that you are going to headshot me"). Call it the "save against player stupidity/forgetfulness." I'd have the CHARACTER roll an IQ check (or a different stat depending on the system). If the character passed the test, I'd say something to the effect of "Fortunately for you the player, your character has saved against your stupidity and realized that guaranteed death by drowning in puke is a much worse outcome than potential death by a headshot, and he removes the helmet." The smarter the character, the less likely that he or she will do something mind-numbingly stupid and out of character. Most players ended up liking this mechanic, because I'd also use it when the player was forgetting about abilities their character would most certainly remember having and would give them hints about things that they could do (it was especially useful in games in the Aberrant system, since my players were not nearly as well versed in the system as I was).

Also, if I ever played in your campaigns I would definitely be scouring the books for armor with a helmet that allows you to just flip up a visor!
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by boring7 »

To be honest, sounds like a design oversight of the armor. There are inevitably going to be times when you DON'T want to break seal but you need to deal with sickness. Off-the-cuff example: Flying in a Death's Head, it takes shots and loses pressure, the evasive flying causes airsickness. Let me just pop the seals, take off my helmet, and asphyxiate because we're at a high altitude.

To be fair, almost no organization in the megaverse has actual, competent design teams when it comes to these sorts of things, (or competent intelligence agencies, or competent...*goes on for several minutes*) but STILL.

Plus if you're creative you can usually come up with workarounds. I refuse to believe a removable helmet can't be opened and partially drained while still providing cover for 99% of your head.

Anyways, non-lethal weapons...I honestly don't know enough of the setting to know all the different tools and weapons out there, but I recall there was something like an 80% chance of stun-lock that we got hit with once. I think it was actually a flavor of hand-to-hand but I don't know.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

I do not know of any resportaor device other than a tube to the lungs that allows you to get sick safely.

Is the death head transport not pressurized? seams like a design flaw for a high flying transport to not have pressure for the crew to breath.

Read the description on the New style CS helmets the open and hing at the top to be removed. Puke is not always a pure liquid and can be quite chunky cleaning out the helmet to make it safe to breath would likely require more than just opening it up a crack it is not water after all but partially digested food. The design does not seam to be intended to allow it to be opened while worn.

Motor helmets with a full face plate typically require removing when you get sick so you can breath safely.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by boring7 »

Blue_Lion wrote:I do not know of any resportaor device other than a tube to the lungs that allows you to get sick safely.

Is the death head transport not pressurized? seams like a design flaw for a high flying transport to not have pressure for the crew to breath.

Read the description on the New style CS helmets the open and hing at the top to be removed. Puke is not always a pure liquid and can be quite chunky cleaning out the helmet to make it safe to breath would likely require more than just opening it up a crack it is not water after all but partially digested food. The design does not seam to be intended to allow it to be opened while worn.

Motor helmets with a full face plate typically require removing when you get sick so you can breath safely.


For question one: Presumably it wouldn't be that difficult to add a tube to the mask that runs a vacuum pump. You fill your mask with vomit, flick the switch (or maybe even have the machine recognize the mass) and it creates negative pressure. Flick the switch when you aren't paying attention and you hurt yourself. Fun for the whole family. Doesn't mean Dead Boy armor actually has it, of course, but it OUGHT to if they're going to the trouble of making it atmo-sealed.

For question two: My point was a flying MILITARY transport should have a plan for when it loses pressure because it got shot. Something that presumably happens a lot on rifts earth.

Even chunky salsa vomit can be shaken/dumped out enough to be able to breathe (with the occasional coughing fit) without completely removing the helmet. You end up with a long-term negative because you've still got flecks and bits and STANK in there but your paranoid "never remove my helmet!!!" self can avoid drowning. If, you know, you aren't a foolish metagaming player willing to make the worst assumptions about the GM's intentions but unable to find a creative solution.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by eliakon »

There is a reason that I have a "balance of terror" agreement with my players.
It prevents just this sort of silliness (which is, when viewed from either persons side just silly)

The rule is "I won't use various insta-kill/'I-Win'/cheap shot tactics/combinations/tricks on the PCs, unless the PCs use those abilities on NPCs first.
I.e. while headshots are amazing...I don't use them in most games and situations unless the PCs are using headshots (routinely) first.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

eliakon wrote:There is a reason that I have a "balance of terror" agreement with my players.
It prevents just this sort of silliness (which is, when viewed from either persons side just silly)

The rule is "I won't use various insta-kill/'I-Win'/cheap shot tactics/combinations/tricks on the PCs, unless the PCs use those abilities on NPCs first.
I.e. while headshots are amazing...I don't use them in most games and situations unless the PCs are using headshots (routinely) first.

I agree with not using instant I win cheep intaant kill tatics. But I will use tactics to make fights more challenging such as a greater demon grab/pick up a mellee charter to use as a shield vs a glitter boys boom gun.

The weapon was intended as a debuff, and in years of using it, never had it kill a player until this time

The cultist that tossed the grenades had on no body armor so as long as 1 pc made a save the cultist would die quickly. If no one made the save the cultist had no combat spells or training with the energy pistol they had so the PC should still win. The grenades where a stalling tatic to slow the pcs down by the cultist, I have npcs use tactics when I fill it is justified for the NPC to do so. The cultist being poorly armed and with little combat skill were buying time to get there god in play to kill the PCs because it would be years before the fanatics could try again. The ritual needed another 8 minutes to finish.

(in this case the juicer and crazy made there saving throw and killed the cultist in three actions about 7 seconds. So the PC kept his helmet on while puking out of combat for over 3 minutes.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:There is a reason that I have a "balance of terror" agreement with my players.
It prevents just this sort of silliness (which is, when viewed from either persons side just silly)

The rule is "I won't use various insta-kill/'I-Win'/cheap shot tactics/combinations/tricks on the PCs, unless the PCs use those abilities on NPCs first.
I.e. while headshots are amazing...I don't use them in most games and situations unless the PCs are using headshots (routinely) first.

I agree with not using instant I win cheep intaant kill tatics. But I will use tactics to make fights more challenging such as a greater demon grab/pick up a mellee charter to use as a shield vs a glitter boys boom gun.

The weapon was intended as a debuff, and in years of using it, never had it kill a player until this time

The cultist that tossed the grenades had on no body armor so as long as 1 pc made a save the cultist would die quickly. If no one made the save the cultist had no combat spells or training with the energy pistol they had so the PC should still win. The grenades where a stalling tatic to slow the pcs down by the cultist, I have npcs use tactics when I fill it is justified for the NPC to do so. The cultist being poorly armed and with little combat skill were buying time to get there god in play to kill the PCs because it would be years before the fanatics could try again. The ritual needed another 8 minutes to finish.

(in this case the juicer and crazy made there saving throw and killed the cultist in three actions about 7 seconds. So the PC kept his helmet on while puking out of combat for over 3 minutes.)


I'm curious though, all someone would have had to do to "save" him would be to take his helmet off after he passed out... Why didn't then PCs?
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by 13eowulf »

HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:There is a reason that I have a "balance of terror" agreement with my players.
It prevents just this sort of silliness (which is, when viewed from either persons side just silly)

The rule is "I won't use various insta-kill/'I-Win'/cheap shot tactics/combinations/tricks on the PCs, unless the PCs use those abilities on NPCs first.
I.e. while headshots are amazing...I don't use them in most games and situations unless the PCs are using headshots (routinely) first.

I agree with not using instant I win cheep intaant kill tatics. But I will use tactics to make fights more challenging such as a greater demon grab/pick up a mellee charter to use as a shield vs a glitter boys boom gun.

The weapon was intended as a debuff, and in years of using it, never had it kill a player until this time

The cultist that tossed the grenades had on no body armor so as long as 1 pc made a save the cultist would die quickly. If no one made the save the cultist had no combat spells or training with the energy pistol they had so the PC should still win. The grenades where a stalling tatic to slow the pcs down by the cultist, I have npcs use tactics when I fill it is justified for the NPC to do so. The cultist being poorly armed and with little combat skill were buying time to get there god in play to kill the PCs because it would be years before the fanatics could try again. The ritual needed another 8 minutes to finish.

(in this case the juicer and crazy made there saving throw and killed the cultist in three actions about 7 seconds. So the PC kept his helmet on while puking out of combat for over 3 minutes.)


I'm curious though, all someone would have had to do to "save" him would be to take his helmet off after he passed out... Why didn't then PCs?

They were already trying to decide how to split up his stuff? :lol:
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:There is a reason that I have a "balance of terror" agreement with my players.
It prevents just this sort of silliness (which is, when viewed from either persons side just silly)

The rule is "I won't use various insta-kill/'I-Win'/cheap shot tactics/combinations/tricks on the PCs, unless the PCs use those abilities on NPCs first.
I.e. while headshots are amazing...I don't use them in most games and situations unless the PCs are using headshots (routinely) first.

I agree with not using instant I win cheep intaant kill tatics. But I will use tactics to make fights more challenging such as a greater demon grab/pick up a mellee charter to use as a shield vs a glitter boys boom gun.

The weapon was intended as a debuff, and in years of using it, never had it kill a player until this time

The cultist that tossed the grenades had on no body armor so as long as 1 pc made a save the cultist would die quickly. If no one made the save the cultist had no combat spells or training with the energy pistol they had so the PC should still win. The grenades where a stalling tatic to slow the pcs down by the cultist, I have npcs use tactics when I fill it is justified for the NPC to do so. The cultist being poorly armed and with little combat skill were buying time to get there god in play to kill the PCs because it would be years before the fanatics could try again. The ritual needed another 8 minutes to finish.

(in this case the juicer and crazy made there saving throw and killed the cultist in three actions about 7 seconds. So the PC kept his helmet on while puking out of combat for over 3 minutes.)


I'm curious though, all someone would have had to do to "save" him would be to take his helmet off after he passed out... Why didn't then PCs?

No they would need to remove helmet and clear the air way with first aid possibly do rescue breathing.(first aid skill) The puke would get sucked in as you struggle to breath through it.(Not to mention after 3 minutes of almost non stop projectile vomiting the helmet was beyond full.) When some one is drowning and passes out you need to do more than just remove them from what is drowning them.

They removed the helmet but did not do first aid to clear the air way.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:There is a reason that I have a "balance of terror" agreement with my players.
It prevents just this sort of silliness (which is, when viewed from either persons side just silly)

The rule is "I won't use various insta-kill/'I-Win'/cheap shot tactics/combinations/tricks on the PCs, unless the PCs use those abilities on NPCs first.
I.e. while headshots are amazing...I don't use them in most games and situations unless the PCs are using headshots (routinely) first.

I agree with not using instant I win cheep intaant kill tatics. But I will use tactics to make fights more challenging such as a greater demon grab/pick up a mellee charter to use as a shield vs a glitter boys boom gun.

The weapon was intended as a debuff, and in years of using it, never had it kill a player until this time

The cultist that tossed the grenades had on no body armor so as long as 1 pc made a save the cultist would die quickly. If no one made the save the cultist had no combat spells or training with the energy pistol they had so the PC should still win. The grenades where a stalling tatic to slow the pcs down by the cultist, I have npcs use tactics when I fill it is justified for the NPC to do so. The cultist being poorly armed and with little combat skill were buying time to get there god in play to kill the PCs because it would be years before the fanatics could try again. The ritual needed another 8 minutes to finish.

(in this case the juicer and crazy made there saving throw and killed the cultist in three actions about 7 seconds. So the PC kept his helmet on while puking out of combat for over 3 minutes.)


I'm curious though, all someone would have had to do to "save" him would be to take his helmet off after he passed out... Why didn't then PCs?

No they would need to remove helmet and clear the air way with first aid possibly do rescue breathing.(first aid skill) The puke would get sucked in as you struggle to breath through it.(Not to mention after 3 minutes of almost non stop projectile vomiting the helmet was beyond full.) When some one is drowning and passes out you need to do more than just remove them from what is drowning them.

They removed the helmet but did not do first aid to clear the air way.

See this is the point where I would call "killer GM"
When you suddenly need to make skill rolls (that the group seems to not have had if no one was able to do anything and just had to sit there and watch him die after the first 7 seconds of battle were over) to save the guy that takes it from "hey this is just a debuff" to "well I'll show you"
Whether or not that was the intent that is what it comes across as.

Or put another way. Did everyone at the table know that "Oh by the way, if you puke in a helmet then you die and unless someone can make one or more first aid rolls to clear your airway and rescue breath"

Because that sort of thing is not assumed. The game doesn't have that granular level of detail in any other facet of the game, and, for example, the drowning rules don't cover that sort of thing. So unless the players know, in advance, that there is this house rule then yeah its a Not Cool move.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Yeah Elikon,

I would have had them remove the helmet. I would have had a PC not give mouth to mouth, just do the good old lung pump, then had the vomit drowning character cough it up and breathe. Though might have had him gain phobia drowning after that. I also would not have let him get the smell out of his helmet... Ever.

Edit:
Also... How can you projectile vomit for that long? Since you argued realism on the first aid... Like, you can only vomit as much food/liquid as is currently in the stomach. Then you start dry heaving. There isn't, usually, enough food and liquid in the stomach to fill an entire EBA helmet to the point of covering the mouth and nose in liquid. Heck it wouldn't all be liquid. Some of it would be solid chunks (which would actually absorb liquid) and it would be horrendous, no doubt, but I don't think you'd actually drown. Then, to clog the lungs up, you'd need like, a LOT of liquid. Like, lots more than you can usually vomit up, even if you clear the stomach...
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Jefffar wrote:I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.

The only one with first aid did not want to do first aid when they got he helmet off. Basically they never cleared the air way.
I gave him several warnings as did the other players that he need to take it off one even tried to remove it while he was still awake and he threatened him with a weapon.

Eliakon check the facts I already stated in this thread one of the PC had the skill. So I did not suddenly require a skill roll no one had the player with the skill chose not use the skill I even reminded the player with the skill(if some one has a needed skill for something and no one is doing anything thing I remind the player the skill as it would be charter knowledge) he would need to do first aid with a +20%(do to the practice he got saving a child that almost drowned the session before) to save the charter. I have always required first aid(or higher medical skill) to save drowning victims.

Blue_Lion wrote: Special features-any one in 20' of it when it blast must save vs magic or spend the next 1d4 minutes affected by projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea. Loose half actions reduce spd to 1d4 -5 to strike parry and dodge. Note this affect will happen even if the person has never eaten it magically permantly creates the puke and poop.

Hwalsh as to the reason for projectile vomit for so long is because the nature of the magic it creates the vomit. It is in the description of the weapon. The affect magically creates the vomit you are not puking up what you ate but magically created puke so no dehydration or loss of food, but the affects last allot longer than if you where puking what you ate. Making it worse and better at the same time it is better when you need to conserve food and water rations but worse when you are doing the puking. By the description i wrote even a robot would be affected I never changed the description even after I ruled it only affected organic life forms. (EBA helmets when worn likely do not have allot of room other than what is front of the face. Most of the side walls would be padding to resist impact damage that should be some what water proof.)

:roll:
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Jefffar wrote:I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.

The only one with first aid did not want to do first aid when they got he helmet off. Basically they never cleared the air way.
I gave him several warnings as did the other players that he need to take it off one even tried to remove it while he was still awake and he threatened him with a weapon.

Eliakon check the facts I already stated in this thread one of the PC had the skill. So I did not suddenly require a skill roll no one had the player with the skill chose not use the skill I even reminded the player with the skill(if some one has a needed skill for something and no one is doing anything thing I remind the player the skill as it would be charter knowledge) he would need to do first aid with a +20%(do to the practice he got saving a child that almost drowned the session before) to save the charter. I have always required first aid(or higher medical skill) to save drowning victims.

Blue_Lion wrote: Special features-any one in 20' of it when it blast must save vs magic or spend the next 1d4 minutes affected by projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea. Loose half actions reduce spd to 1d4 -5 to strike parry and dodge. Note this affect will happen even if the person has never eaten it magically permantly creates the puke and poop.

Hwalsh as to the reason for projectile vomit for so long is because the nature of the magic it creates the vomit. It is in the description of the weapon. The affect magically creates the vomit you are not puking up what you ate but magically created puke so no dehydration or loss of food, but the affects last allot longer than if you where puking what you ate. Making it worse and better at the same time it is better when you need to conserve food and water rations but worse when you are doing the puking. By the description i wrote even a robot would be affected I never changed the description even after I ruled it only affected organic life forms. (EBA helmets when worn likely do not have allot of room other than what is front of the face. Most of the side walls would be padding to resist impact damage that should be some what water proof.)

:roll:


Still feels a bit fishy to me, to be honest. Seems really powerful for an AoE.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Eagle »

This is a classic Killer GM move.

1) Powerful homebrew "special item" that throwaway NPCs have.
2) GM's long term players instantly recognize special item because they've been hit by it so often before.
3) Special item is designed to cause humiliating and disgusting effects in PCs (endless magically created vomit and diarrhea) that also puts them at severe combat disadvantage.
4) NPCs act in ridiculously suicidal manner just to use a special item that is only "supposed to be" a mild debuff.
5) When new player refuses to "play along", GM rules that heroic character dies in utterly humiliating way.
6) When given criticism, instead of saying "okay maybe that's too powerful", GM gets defensive and justifies it by saying he's just being "realistic".

Yup, definitely a Killer GM move.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Eagle wrote:This is a classic Killer GM move.

1) Powerful homebrew "special item" that throwaway NPCs have.
2) GM's long term players instantly recognize special item because they've been hit by it so often before.
3) Special item is designed to cause humiliating and disgusting effects in PCs (endless magically created vomit and diarrhea) that also puts them at severe combat disadvantage.
4) NPCs act in ridiculously suicidal manner just to use a special item that is only "supposed to be" a mild debuff.
5) When new player refuses to "play along", GM rules that heroic character dies in utterly humiliating way.
6) When given criticism, instead of saying "okay maybe that's too powerful", GM gets defensive and justifies it by saying he's just being "realistic".

Yup, definitely a Killer GM move.


how is it a killer GM move? nobody else is losing characters left and right to this. just the one guy who refused to respond to the situation.

this is no more a killer GM move than if the GM tells you you're being attacked by demons and you just stand there getting attacked until you die. it is not the GM"s responsibility to think for you. that's your job.

(and also, this homebrew item isn't particularly more debilitating than a number of things that are already in the game, and the goblin bomb already exists, which is what this item essentially is).

rifts is a game where combat can easily lead to death. nobody has to "add" anything in to the game to make that happen.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Eagle wrote:This is a classic Killer GM move.

1) Powerful homebrew "special item" that throwaway NPCs have.
2) GM's long term players instantly recognize special item because they've been hit by it so often before.
3) Special item is designed to cause humiliating and disgusting effects in PCs (endless magically created vomit and diarrhea) that also puts them at severe combat disadvantage.
4) NPCs act in ridiculously suicidal manner just to use a special item that is only "supposed to be" a mild debuff.
5) When new player refuses to "play along", GM rules that heroic character dies in utterly humiliating way.
6) When given criticism, instead of saying "okay maybe that's too powerful", GM gets defensive and justifies it by saying he's just being "realistic".

Yup, definitely a Killer GM move.

1 The weapon is something powerful primarily used by members of FOM when a specific Powerful boss NPC (Crazy Hetz) is in play.
2 They do not reconize it because they get hi by it often they know it because it is annoying.
3 I never said it was a mild debuff it is suppose to be a major debuff that is based on something super annoying that victim would need to RP the after math by at least cleaning armor.
4 Using invisibly to deploy a weapon by fanatical cultist to stop the PC from interfering with a ritual to summon they AI is reasonable they have no other way to effectively stop the PC do to lack of gear.
5 You think a player death for not responding to something is "play along" and if not responding to it is a killer GM move(i not sure if I would even call the charter that through a child in a river and almost drowned him for begging for food as heroic charter). That is like saying if a heroic charter stood in fire and died like a idiot in what would be considered a humiliating it is a GM being a killer GM for letting it happen.
6 I know the weapon is powerful it is suppose to be powerful weapon used by a terrorist group (FoM) when Crazy Hetz is involved I merely gave factors involved giving facts that are unknown by people may seam like a defensive move, but it also help you see why it happened the PC did not die because of the weapon giving he died because A he did not respond to the situation, B refused help from fellow PC with threat of violence, C when giving a chance to save the PC that did not "play along" with a bonus another PC said no he pulled a gun on me the bastard can die. (his death really was self inflicted.)

AS I said this is the only time the weapon has ever killed some one, typically when throw away NPCs have it they do so in place of MDC armor, decent weapons and training. In other words it is all they have going for them when they have it. The item is banned quite heavily by magic using nations outside the FoM so it is primary used by the true FoM a terrorist group.


I do not see-
a Giving a PC a warning that something is life threatening.
b Giving a PC an extended time line to react to a life threatening event with progressive warnings.
c Giving a PC a bonus to save the life of another PC.
d not using the weapon as part of a easy kill tactic ie not doing head shots when the take off their helmets.
-as a killer GM move.
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I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Jefffar wrote:I love how none of his companions unfastened his helmet after he fell unconscious.

The only one with first aid did not want to do first aid when they got he helmet off. Basically they never cleared the air way.
I gave him several warnings as did the other players that he need to take it off one even tried to remove it while he was still awake and he threatened him with a weapon.

Eliakon check the facts I already stated in this thread one of the PC had the skill. So I did not suddenly require a skill roll no one had the player with the skill chose not use the skill I even reminded the player with the skill(if some one has a needed skill for something and no one is doing anything thing I remind the player the skill as it would be charter knowledge) he would need to do first aid with a +20%(do to the practice he got saving a child that almost drowned the session before) to save the charter. I have always required first aid(or higher medical skill) to save drowning victims.

Blue_Lion wrote: Special features-any one in 20' of it when it blast must save vs magic or spend the next 1d4 minutes affected by projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea. Loose half actions reduce spd to 1d4 -5 to strike parry and dodge. Note this affect will happen even if the person has never eaten it magically permantly creates the puke and poop.

Hwalsh as to the reason for projectile vomit for so long is because the nature of the magic it creates the vomit. It is in the description of the weapon. The affect magically creates the vomit you are not puking up what you ate but magically created puke so no dehydration or loss of food, but the affects last allot longer than if you where puking what you ate. Making it worse and better at the same time it is better when you need to conserve food and water rations but worse when you are doing the puking. By the description i wrote even a robot would be affected I never changed the description even after I ruled it only affected organic life forms. (EBA helmets when worn likely do not have allot of room other than what is front of the face. Most of the side walls would be padding to resist impact damage that should be some what water proof.)

:roll:


Still feels a bit fishy to me, to be honest. Seems really powerful for an AoE.

It is suppose to be powerful the creator can make lvl 15 tw items in mass. It is a item provided primarily to the FoM as part of a home brew boss villian(it is an item that says guess who is in town arming people in the FoM to start a war). The item is banned by most good magic using communities do to its affects.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Well the player showed up to another game with a new charter.
He wound up deciding he wanted to steal a vehicle because he thought it was a interesting vehicle. A flying winnebago with the Dysfunctionals painted on the side.

The vehicle belongs to this group, (forgive the type-os)
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=148069&hilit=willy

He has not been caught by the dysfunctionals yet but this can potentially go very bad if they are catch him in town. Johnny Law-speaker is no joke when it comes to trials.

(the rest of the party told him it was a bad idea, but he is listing to them as well as he did when they told him to remove his helmet so his PC can breath.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

HWalsh wrote:Yeah Elikon,

I would have had them remove the helmet. I would have had a PC not give mouth to mouth, just do the good old lung pump, then had the vomit drowning character cough it up and breathe. Though might have had him gain phobia drowning after that. I also would not have let him get the smell out of his helmet... Ever.

Edit:
Also... How can you projectile vomit for that long? Since you argued realism on the first aid... Like, you can only vomit as much food/liquid as is currently in the stomach. Then you start dry heaving. There isn't, usually, enough food and liquid in the stomach to fill an entire EBA helmet to the point of covering the mouth and nose in liquid. Heck it wouldn't all be liquid. Some of it would be solid chunks (which would actually absorb liquid) and it would be horrendous, no doubt, but I don't think you'd actually drown. Then, to clog the lungs up, you'd need like, a LOT of liquid. Like, lots more than you can usually vomit up, even if you clear the stomach...


What the neck medical technique is the good old lung pump?
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Eagle wrote:This is a classic Killer GM move.

1) Powerful homebrew "special item" that throwaway NPCs have.
2) GM's long term players instantly recognize special item because they've been hit by it so often before.
3) Special item is designed to cause humiliating and disgusting effects in PCs (endless magically created vomit and diarrhea) that also puts them at severe combat disadvantage.
4) NPCs act in ridiculously suicidal manner just to use a special item that is only "supposed to be" a mild debuff.
5) When new player refuses to "play along", GM rules that heroic character dies in utterly humiliating way.
6) When given criticism, instead of saying "okay maybe that's too powerful", GM gets defensive and justifies it by saying he's just being "realistic".

Yup, definitely a Killer GM move.


Seriously?
1. Non damaging spell that only makes you like and crap yourself is hardly powerful.

2. Announced it was a puke grenade to everyone AND regular players even a. Instructed noob what to do and b. did it themselves.

3. So three TW annihilation grenades would have been better for you?

4. How are under armed and armored cultist supposed to act? Their freaking AI cultist, what kind of sane person summons an AI? How are dropping grenades on the party suicidal? Wouldn't fighting them with crap weapons spells and armor in a straight out fire fight been more suicidal? If this is the only chance the crazy cultists have in 100 years neck even just 10 years why would they run?

5. so if new player refused to dodge the beam path of the SDF-1 or jump into a garbage compactor in a prison cell block on a giant space station choosing to stay and fight in both situations would he thwn be a killer GM beczuse thw SDF-1 kills instantly and the horde of troopers that reinforce eventually start hitting?

6. He doesn't have to justify. When a player is given multiple opportunities to save himself and refuses to do so. It isn't the GMs responsibility to play helicopter parent and bring the PC their lunch because they forgot it at home. The GM tells the story, runs the game and frequently throws in hints and clues on how to proceed frequently giving many opportunities for a player to save themselves from their own stupidity. But there is a point when the GM just needs to let them face their consequences.

Your points sound like your the one that didn't clear your helmet.

Which brings up another point. If your puking in a mask/EBA helmet you get the unit to form around you, take a knee and clear... Or find cover and clear.

Also sounds like the players not the GM killed him as they had the opportunity but CHOSE not to. They played in character and the GM did more than was required.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Yeah Elikon,

I would have had them remove the helmet. I would have had a PC not give mouth to mouth, just do the good old lung pump, then had the vomit drowning character cough it up and breathe. Though might have had him gain phobia drowning after that. I also would not have let him get the smell out of his helmet... Ever.

Edit:
Also... How can you projectile vomit for that long? Since you argued realism on the first aid... Like, you can only vomit as much food/liquid as is currently in the stomach. Then you start dry heaving. There isn't, usually, enough food and liquid in the stomach to fill an entire EBA helmet to the point of covering the mouth and nose in liquid. Heck it wouldn't all be liquid. Some of it would be solid chunks (which would actually absorb liquid) and it would be horrendous, no doubt, but I don't think you'd actually drown. Then, to clog the lungs up, you'd need like, a LOT of liquid. Like, lots more than you can usually vomit up, even if you clear the stomach...


What the neck medical technique is the good old lung pump?


TV and movies tell us the way to save a drowning person is via mouth to mouth and chest compressions. Aka CPR.

This is only somewhat true.

Chest compressions are more useful than mouth to mouth. Also the Heimlich maneuver both help force organs to react. Mouth to mouth? Useful. Rarely needed.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Eagle wrote:This is a classic Killer GM move.

1) Powerful homebrew "special item" that throwaway NPCs have.
2) GM's long term players instantly recognize special item because they've been hit by it so often before.
3) Special item is designed to cause humiliating and disgusting effects in PCs (endless magically created vomit and diarrhea) that also puts them at severe combat disadvantage.
4) NPCs act in ridiculously suicidal manner just to use a special item that is only "supposed to be" a mild debuff.
5) When new player refuses to "play along", GM rules that heroic character dies in utterly humiliating way.
6) When given criticism, instead of saying "okay maybe that's too powerful", GM gets defensive and justifies it by saying he's just being "realistic".

Yup, definitely a Killer GM move.

1 The weapon is something powerful primarily used by members of FOM when a specific Powerful boss NPC (Crazy Hetz) is in play.
2 They do not reconize it because they get hi by it often they know it because it is annoying.
3 I never said it was a mild debuff it is suppose to be a major debuff that is based on something super annoying that victim would need to RP the after math by at least cleaning armor.
4 Using invisibly to deploy a weapon by fanatical cultist to stop the PC from interfering with a ritual to summon they AI is reasonable they have no other way to effectively stop the PC do to lack of gear.
5 You think a player death for not responding to something is "play along" and if not responding to it is a killer GM move(i not sure if I would even call the charter that through a child in a river and almost drowned him for begging for food as heroic charter). That is like saying if a heroic charter stood in fire and died like a idiot in what would be considered a humiliating it is a GM being a killer GM for letting it happen.
6 I know the weapon is powerful it is suppose to be powerful weapon used by a terrorist group (FoM) when Crazy Hetz is involved I merely gave factors involved giving facts that are unknown by people may seam like a defensive move, but it also help you see why it happened the PC did not die because of the weapon giving he died because A he did not respond to the situation, B refused help from fellow PC with threat of violence, C when giving a chance to save the PC that did not "play along" with a bonus another PC said no he pulled a gun on me the bastard can die. (his death really was self inflicted.)

AS I said this is the only time the weapon has ever killed some one, typically when throw away NPCs have it they do so in place of MDC armor, decent weapons and training. In other words it is all they have going for them when they have it. The item is banned quite heavily by magic using nations outside the FoM so it is primary used by the true FoM a terrorist group.


I do not see-
a Giving a PC a warning that something is life threatening.
b Giving a PC an extended time line to react to a life threatening event with progressive warnings.
c Giving a PC a bonus to save the life of another PC.
d not using the weapon as part of a easy kill tactic ie not doing head shots when the take off their helmets.
-as a killer GM move.


Not that it matters coming from me, but you played it right. Threatening another player when he tries to save him because the player is using OOC knowledge is the red line. Especially because it wasn't OOCK it was an assumption. Your weapon doesn't seem that powerful in the long run. It isn't like you got the web stuff from phaseworld on him completely immobilizing him, you didnt allow Nantes from slivers to infect his armor and kill him on the inside, he wasn't a cyborg you sent through the mirror wall or one you used the anti tech spell that disables a single chosen component to stop working (power supply or better the device that keeps a meltdown from happening), you didnt do an orbital strike from the SDF-1 or a nearby one from a syncrocannon and you didnt use a RE sniper rifle that teleport the bullet inside the helmet or use phase powers to allow someone to put an armed grenade in him AND you did not use 52 cards to the face on an endless deck with card daggers cast on them.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Yeah Elikon,

I would have had them remove the helmet. I would have had a PC not give mouth to mouth, just do the good old lung pump, then had the vomit drowning character cough it up and breathe. Though might have had him gain phobia drowning after that. I also would not have let him get the smell out of his helmet... Ever.

Edit:
Also... How can you projectile vomit for that long? Since you argued realism on the first aid... Like, you can only vomit as much food/liquid as is currently in the stomach. Then you start dry heaving. There isn't, usually, enough food and liquid in the stomach to fill an entire EBA helmet to the point of covering the mouth and nose in liquid. Heck it wouldn't all be liquid. Some of it would be solid chunks (which would actually absorb liquid) and it would be horrendous, no doubt, but I don't think you'd actually drown. Then, to clog the lungs up, you'd need like, a LOT of liquid. Like, lots more than you can usually vomit up, even if you clear the stomach...


What the neck medical technique is the good old lung pump?

There is a way to provide a Heimlich maneuver on a person prone that could be used to clear the air way.
If I recall correctly you place the heal of the palms on about the location of diaphragm and push down and towards the head pumping the lungs.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Eagle »

Shark_Force wrote:
Eagle wrote:This is a classic Killer GM move.

1) Powerful homebrew "special item" that throwaway NPCs have.
2) GM's long term players instantly recognize special item because they've been hit by it so often before.
3) Special item is designed to cause humiliating and disgusting effects in PCs (endless magically created vomit and diarrhea) that also puts them at severe combat disadvantage.
4) NPCs act in ridiculously suicidal manner just to use a special item that is only "supposed to be" a mild debuff.
5) When new player refuses to "play along", GM rules that heroic character dies in utterly humiliating way.
6) When given criticism, instead of saying "okay maybe that's too powerful", GM gets defensive and justifies it by saying he's just being "realistic".

Yup, definitely a Killer GM move.


how is it a killer GM move? nobody else is losing characters left and right to this. just the one guy who refused to respond to the situation.

this is no more a killer GM move than if the GM tells you you're being attacked by demons and you just stand there getting attacked until you die. it is not the GM"s responsibility to think for you. that's your job.

(and also, this homebrew item isn't particularly more debilitating than a number of things that are already in the game, and the goblin bomb already exists, which is what this item essentially is).

rifts is a game where combat can easily lead to death. nobody has to "add" anything in to the game to make that happen.



Zer0 Kay wrote:Seriously?
1. Non damaging spell that only makes you like and crap yourself is hardly powerful.

2. Announced it was a puke grenade to everyone AND regular players even a. Instructed noob what to do and b. did it themselves.

3. So three TW annihilation grenades would have been better for you?

4. How are under armed and armored cultist supposed to act? Their freaking AI cultist, what kind of sane person summons an AI? How are dropping grenades on the party suicidal? Wouldn't fighting them with crap weapons spells and armor in a straight out fire fight been more suicidal? If this is the only chance the crazy cultists have in 100 years neck even just 10 years why would they run?

5. so if new player refused to dodge the beam path of the SDF-1 or jump into a garbage compactor in a prison cell block on a giant space station choosing to stay and fight in both situations would he thwn be a killer GM beczuse thw SDF-1 kills instantly and the horde of troopers that reinforce eventually start hitting?

6. He doesn't have to justify. When a player is given multiple opportunities to save himself and refuses to do so. It isn't the GMs responsibility to play helicopter parent and bring the PC their lunch because they forgot it at home. The GM tells the story, runs the game and frequently throws in hints and clues on how to proceed frequently giving many opportunities for a player to save themselves from their own stupidity. But there is a point when the GM just needs to let them face their consequences.

Your points sound like your the one that didn't clear your helmet.

Which brings up another point. If your puking in a mask/EBA helmet you get the unit to form around you, take a knee and clear... Or find cover and clear.

Also sounds like the players not the GM killed him as they had the opportunity but CHOSE not to. They played in character and the GM did more than was required.


I'll respond to both these posts at once.

Rifts Ultimate Edition, pg 261 has a listing of "features common to all Dead Boy armor". 4th from the bottom is that the helmet face plates are all removable. The character shouldn't have to take off his helmet, he should be able to just detach the faceplate to let the puke out. But that's just a technical point.

A "Killer GM" isn't necessarily one who gets a total party kill every adventure. But a Killer GM will often strike down player characters when they "step out of line". And from the OP's description, that appears to be what we're witnessing here. Now I've never met Blue Lion, and have certainly never played in any of his/her games, but I've seen many GMs who act just like this.

Let's go through it again. The PCs are getting close to a confrontation with the bad guys, when they are ambushed by previously invisible enemies. These enemies are completely disposable and exist only to throw a debilitating weapon that forces everyone to remove their armor, which in Rifts means you're 1 point of damage away from being dead. The new player recognizes that this makes him incredibly vulnerable, and he doesn't wish to remove his helmet because he thinks the GM is going to use that as an excuse to head-shot him. The other players say something to the effect of "no, no, he just wants to humiliate the characters. Take your helmet off and just go with it."

The other players are relying on out of character knowledge to know what the GM plans to do. The new player makes a fairly reasonable assumption that taking your helmet off in the enemy base, when you've just seen invisible cultists appear to attack you from surprise, may be a bad idea. He voices his concerns that he's exposing himself to a head shot, and the other PCs apparently tell him that "no, these cultists won't do that"? It seems like a perfectly rational decision to me.

The "Killer" part comes in when this guy's decision to not remove his helmet proves fatal. Nothing about that is listed in the spell description that we were provided in the first post. Killing a character by having him choke to death on his own vomit is vindictive. It's a "you didn't do what I wanted you to do, so you die". Yes, some TW Annihilation grenades may actually be preferable. Those are openly and clearly lethal. To have a lethal attack that masquerades as something simply humiliating is worse.

I've played in several games where it became clear that the GM was using his special villains to embarrass or denigrate the players. And they generally wouldn't kill your character, as long as you took it without complaint. But as soon as you try to do something about it, the situation turns lethal instantly. That's what this thread sounds like. I've been in D&D games where a dragon flies over a group of low level characters and takes a dump on them. Then the GM goes into detail about how you get it into your mouth, and you have to make poison saves, etc. There are other examples that I don't think I can even post here. In every situation, the message is clear. "I'm the GM, I'm in charge, and if you step out of line I'll kill your character." I'd much rather deal with a guy who just ran incredibly lethal combats.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Eagle is right.

The problem comes in that, yes. These are there to humiliate and debilitate player characters. There is no reason why enemies wouldn't head shot helmetless opponents. The fact that the PCs know this is metagaming.

Blue Lion... I suggest the following.

Have your big bad show up, or a Lieutenant of the big bad. Make sure the PCs have a vomit grenade. Make sure your Lt. big bad fails the save.

See what the big bad does?

Heck, if I were a player in your game, the first time these items came on I'd get a talisman to specifically counter those grenades... If I didn't leave after they were first employed.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Eagle »

Oh, if anybody in that group had a good alignment, they should immediately change it to anarchist, at best. I'm hardly the most moral person in the world, but I wouldn't let someone choke to death, even if they had been vomiting. Particularly if that person is supposed to be my friend.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Eagle wrote:Oh, if anybody in that group had a good alignment, they should immediately change it to anarchist, at best. I'm hardly the most moral person in the world, but I wouldn't let someone choke to death, even if they had been vomiting. Particularly if that person is supposed to be my friend.

Why would it be the whole group?
The one of the ones without first aid had removed the helmet after he passed out.
The one with first aid tried to remove the helmet while the person was still awake before he needed first aid and was threatened with violence.(so not providing first aid could be respecting the persons wishes to die.)
So the group did try to save him.(I do not see one infraction as grounds for an alignment change.)

The way he was playing his charter was not getting along with the rest of the group, if not for the PC stamped on his head they would have taken him down like one of the villains they fight.(Most of the players know I dislike in party fighting, so will only fight other party members when the other person attacks first. Attacking and killing another party member is grounds for a group vote to ban you from the group.)
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by HWalsh »

Blue_Lion wrote:so not providing first aid could be respecting the persons wishes to die.


Negative.

The person didn't want his helmet removed because he was afraid of dying. Not because he WISHED to die. He was afraid if he removed his helmet that someone would shoot him in the face. So no. Not providing first aid is NOT respecting the person's wishes.

It is kind of telling though that you equated with "Would rather risk drowning in his own vomit than receive a head shot" with "wished to die."

Principled characters *should* suffer an alignment hit.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Shark_Force »

HWalsh wrote:Eagle is right.

The problem comes in that, yes. These are there to humiliate and debilitate player characters. There is no reason why enemies wouldn't head shot helmetless opponents. The fact that the PCs know this is metagaming.

Blue Lion... I suggest the following.

Have your big bad show up, or a Lieutenant of the big bad. Make sure the PCs have a vomit grenade. Make sure your Lt. big bad fails the save.

See what the big bad does?

Heck, if I were a player in your game, the first time these items came on I'd get a talisman to specifically counter those grenades... If I didn't leave after they were first employed.


the spell doesn't have to tell you that if you are wearing a sealed helmet full of your own vomit, you will suffocate and die while choking on your own vomit. that's just inherent to wearing a sealed helmet full of vomit. it no more needs to tell you that than it needs to tell you that stabbing yourself in the eye is a bad idea; you're supposed to know that without the game rules telling you so.

and sure, it's reasonable to guess that the enemies might have a plan that requires you to take off your helmet (like possibly taking advantage of their invisibility which doesn't work against certain kinds of optics... which might be built-in to your helmet, or possibly using SDC unarmed attacks to your head as their only other weapon). but when you're guaranteed to die on one hand, and there's only a chance of death on the other, and you choose the option that guarantees that you will die, well... that's not the GM killing you. that's you choosing the guaranteed chance of death over the possible chance of bad things (which may or may not include death) happening.

(i would agree that good aligned characters should have tried to prevent the death, but that's not the GM's fault either).
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Eagle wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Eagle wrote:This is a classic Killer GM move.

1) Powerful homebrew "special item" that throwaway NPCs have.
2) GM's long term players instantly recognize special item because they've been hit by it so often before.
3) Special item is designed to cause humiliating and disgusting effects in PCs (endless magically created vomit and diarrhea) that also puts them at severe combat disadvantage.
4) NPCs act in ridiculously suicidal manner just to use a special item that is only "supposed to be" a mild debuff.
5) When new player refuses to "play along", GM rules that heroic character dies in utterly humiliating way.
6) When given criticism, instead of saying "okay maybe that's too powerful", GM gets defensive and justifies it by saying he's just being "realistic".

Yup, definitely a Killer GM move.


how is it a killer GM move? nobody else is losing characters left and right to this. just the one guy who refused to respond to the situation.

this is no more a killer GM move than if the GM tells you you're being attacked by demons and you just stand there getting attacked until you die. it is not the GM"s responsibility to think for you. that's your job.

(and also, this homebrew item isn't particularly more debilitating than a number of things that are already in the game, and the goblin bomb already exists, which is what this item essentially is).

rifts is a game where combat can easily lead to death. nobody has to "add" anything in to the game to make that happen.



Zer0 Kay wrote:Seriously?
1. Non damaging spell that only makes you like and crap yourself is hardly powerful.

2. Announced it was a puke grenade to everyone AND regular players even a. Instructed noob what to do and b. did it themselves.

3. So three TW annihilation grenades would have been better for you?

4. How are under armed and armored cultist supposed to act? Their freaking AI cultist, what kind of sane person summons an AI? How are dropping grenades on the party suicidal? Wouldn't fighting them with crap weapons spells and armor in a straight out fire fight been more suicidal? If this is the only chance the crazy cultists have in 100 years neck even just 10 years why would they run?

5. so if new player refused to dodge the beam path of the SDF-1 or jump into a garbage compactor in a prison cell block on a giant space station choosing to stay and fight in both situations would he thwn be a killer GM beczuse thw SDF-1 kills instantly and the horde of troopers that reinforce eventually start hitting?

6. He doesn't have to justify. When a player is given multiple opportunities to save himself and refuses to do so. It isn't the GMs responsibility to play helicopter parent and bring the PC their lunch because they forgot it at home. The GM tells the story, runs the game and frequently throws in hints and clues on how to proceed frequently giving many opportunities for a player to save themselves from their own stupidity. But there is a point when the GM just needs to let them face their consequences.

Your points sound like your the one that didn't clear your helmet.

Which brings up another point. If your puking in a mask/EBA helmet you get the unit to form around you, take a knee and clear... Or find cover and clear.

Also sounds like the players not the GM killed him as they had the opportunity but CHOSE not to. They played in character and the GM did more than was required.


I'll respond to both these posts at once.

Rifts Ultimate Edition, pg 261 has a listing of "features common to all Dead Boy armor". 4th from the bottom is that the helmet face plates are all removable. The character shouldn't have to take off his helmet, he should be able to just detach the faceplate to let the puke out. But that's just a technical point.

A "Killer GM" isn't necessarily one who gets a total party kill every adventure. But a Killer GM will often strike down player characters when they "step out of line". And from the OP's description, that appears to be what we're witnessing here. Now I've never met Blue Lion, and have certainly never played in any of his/her games, but I've seen many GMs who act just like this.

Let's go through it again. The PCs are getting close to a confrontation with the bad guys, when they are ambushed by previously invisible enemies. These enemies are completely disposable and exist only to throw a debilitating weapon that forces everyone to remove their armor, which in Rifts means you're 1 point of damage away from being dead. The new player recognizes that this makes him incredibly vulnerable, and he doesn't wish to remove his helmet because he thinks the GM is going to use that as an excuse to head-shot him. The other players say something to the effect of "no, no, he just wants to humiliate the characters. Take your helmet off and just go with it."

The other players are relying on out of character knowledge to know what the GM plans to do. The new player makes a fairly reasonable assumption that taking your helmet off in the enemy base, when you've just seen invisible cultists appear to attack you from surprise, may be a bad idea. He voices his concerns that he's exposing himself to a head shot, and the other PCs apparently tell him that "no, these cultists won't do that"? It seems like a perfectly rational decision to me.

The "Killer" part comes in when this guy's decision to not remove his helmet proves fatal. Nothing about that is listed in the spell description that we were provided in the first post. Killing a character by having him choke to death on his own vomit is vindictive. It's a "you didn't do what I wanted you to do, so you die". Yes, some TW Annihilation grenades may actually be preferable. Those are openly and clearly lethal. To have a lethal attack that masquerades as something simply humiliating is worse.

I've played in several games where it became clear that the GM was using his special villains to embarrass or denigrate the players. And they generally wouldn't kill your character, as long as you took it without complaint. But as soon as you try to do something about it, the situation turns lethal instantly. That's what this thread sounds like. I've been in D&D games where a dragon flies over a group of low level characters and takes a dump on them. Then the GM goes into detail about how you get it into your mouth, and you have to make poison saves, etc. There are other examples that I don't think I can even post here. In every situation, the message is clear. "I'm the GM, I'm in charge, and if you step out of line I'll kill your character." I'd much rather deal with a guy who just ran incredibly lethal combats.

:roll: No. A killer GM is a GM who is out to intentionally kill his players wether or not he is successful at doing it doesn't matter. It is a mindset not a result. The killer GM considers himself the enemy of the players. Even if Blue Lion's intent was to humiliate the player or maybe he considered it teaching a lesson there was sufficient warnings.

As to good players changing their alignment. There are thing people no matter how good they are find that they will not do. Besides if they are good maybe they decided that ridding the world of this evil jerk who is willing to drowned a child for begging for food is acceptable. After all he was armed and even threatened the other players when they attempted to render aid. Even if their second idea was to get him to cover they probably wouldn't approach after being threatened.

AND the PLAYER CHOSE not to clear his helmet in the multiple turns after combat even though the room had been secured. He should be far less worried about removing it himself. If Blue Lion was a killer GM he would have twice the number of poorly armed mages invisible half with a conventional weapon. The first teleports the helmets of everyone away the second shoots point blank. Heck skip the second and the one just teleported the helmet two inches toward. Even if it isn't "possible" a killer GM deems it so.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Shark_Force wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Eagle is right.

The problem comes in that, yes. These are there to humiliate and debilitate player characters. There is no reason why enemies wouldn't head shot helmetless opponents. The fact that the PCs know this is metagaming.

Blue Lion... I suggest the following.

Have your big bad show up, or a Lieutenant of the big bad. Make sure the PCs have a vomit grenade. Make sure your Lt. big bad fails the save.

See what the big bad does?

Heck, if I were a player in your game, the first time these items came on I'd get a talisman to specifically counter those grenades... If I didn't leave after they were first employed.


the spell doesn't have to tell you that if you are wearing a sealed helmet full of your own vomit, you will suffocate and die while choking on your own vomit. that's just inherent to wearing a sealed helmet full of vomit. it no more needs to tell you that than it needs to tell you that stabbing yourself in the eye is a bad idea; you're supposed to know that without the game rules telling you so.

and sure, it's reasonable to guess that the enemies might have a plan that requires you to take off your helmet (like possibly taking advantage of their invisibility which doesn't work against certain kinds of optics... which might be built-in to your helmet, or possibly using SDC unarmed attacks to your head as their only other weapon). but when you're guaranteed to die on one hand, and there's only a chance of death on the other, and you choose the option that guarantees that you will die, well... that's not the GM killing you. that's you choosing the guaranteed chance of death over the possible chance of bad things (which may or may not include death) happening.

(i would agree that good aligned characters should have tried to prevent the death, but that's not the GM's fault either).


Darn it I agree with you. Except on the players. They did try to prevent it, at least twice by accounts. They tried to remove the helmet earlier and were threatened. They told him what to do and were ignored. If the prospects of doing something could reasonably disgust a character I'd agree with the player that they were reasonably unable to do it without an alignment hit, especially if that good alignment would have had you already take care of this guy. Full of and covered in puke ranks up there with a phobia especially when direct mouth to mouth is required since there is no such maneuver as "the good old lung pump". A character with androphobia and a principled alignment wouldnt get an alignment hit for not being able to save a man just as a double amputee with no arms wouldnt take a hit for not giving heart compressions. The difference between the two would be that the one with the phobia could choose to be heroic and fight their fear and maybe success but I wouldn't even knock a player for not choosing to attempt the roll as fighting the phobia isn't RPing the phobia if your always doing it. That would just be a simple fear.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

HWalsh wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:so not providing first aid could be respecting the persons wishes to die.


Negative.

The person didn't want his helmet removed because he was afraid of dying. Not because he WISHED to die. He was afraid if he removed his helmet that someone would shoot him in the face. So no. Not providing first aid is NOT respecting the person's wishes.

It is kind of telling though that you equated with "Would rather risk drowning in his own vomit than receive a head shot" with "wished to die."

Principled characters *should* suffer an alignment hit.

The person CHOSE certain death MULTIPLE times over possible death even when there was no apparent threat.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Zer0 Kay wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Yeah Elikon,

I would have had them remove the helmet. I would have had a PC not give mouth to mouth, just do the good old lung pump, then had the vomit drowning character cough it up and breathe. Though might have had him gain phobia drowning after that. I also would not have let him get the smell out of his helmet... Ever.

Edit:
Also... How can you projectile vomit for that long? Since you argued realism on the first aid... Like, you can only vomit as much food/liquid as is currently in the stomach. Then you start dry heaving. There isn't, usually, enough food and liquid in the stomach to fill an entire EBA helmet to the point of covering the mouth and nose in liquid. Heck it wouldn't all be liquid. Some of it would be solid chunks (which would actually absorb liquid) and it would be horrendous, no doubt, but I don't think you'd actually drown. Then, to clog the lungs up, you'd need like, a LOT of liquid. Like, lots more than you can usually vomit up, even if you clear the stomach...


What the neck medical technique is the good old lung pump?

There is a way to provide a Heimlich maneuver on a person prone that could be used to clear the air way.
If I recall correctly you place the heal of the palms on about the location of diaphragm and push down and towards the head pumping the lungs.


Okay. I can see that one. But this player seems to be an idiot. He chose not to clear helmet accepting certain death and even if he expected the other players to revive him they'd STILL be in the same area where he now gets his helmet AND chest plate removed to resuscitate him AND he has no chance to dodge.

On that thought maybe that player was trying to get the whole team killed by making them all immobile.

And on that note EVERYONE ELSE if this idiot was justified to keep his helmet on because he feared a head shot even when out of combat then all the other players were justified no to render aid as it would immobilize them and the one giving mouth to mouth may get head shot. You can't assign the players blame unless a. The GM is not a killer GM AND the player was an idiot.

BTW a killer GM would go after all of the players without helmets not just one and if he was waiting for the one to get them all why didn't he do it after the idiot died and everyone else still had their helmets off. A killer GM is the enemy of all players, otherwise the GM doesn't win.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Johnathan »

Even considering the variables here...

*holds up one hand* Instant head vaporization assuming ANYONE rolls high enough to make that called shot.

*holds up other hand* Slow and painful death that involves me dying in a pool of my own vomit.

Yeah. Sorry. The first option has, at least, the chance of surviving the encounter while my team provides cover, Lays down cover fire, does a strategic retreat so that anyone who failed against the puke grenade can evacuate their stomachs under cover and potentially live another day. That sounds like a WAY better deal than "R.I.P. Private Griff. Died Choking On His Own Vomit".
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Zer0 Kay »

Johnathan wrote:Even considering the variables here...

*holds up one hand* Instant head vaporization assuming ANYONE rolls high enough to make that called shot.

*holds up other hand* Slow and painful death that involves me dying in a pool of my own vomit.

Yeah. Sorry. The first option has, at least, the chance of surviving the encounter while my team provides cover, Lays down cover fire, does a strategic retreat so that anyone who failed against the puke grenade can evacuate their stomachs under cover and potentially live another day. That sounds like a WAY better deal than "R.I.P. Private Griff. Died Choking On His Own Vomit".


Yeah... But Sarge would like the second choice. He'd probably be the one that accidentally apoxied the faceplate and accidentally dropped the puke grenade.
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Re: Scarry non leathal weapon.

Unread post by Johnathan »

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Johnathan wrote:Even considering the variables here...

*holds up one hand* Instant head vaporization assuming ANYONE rolls high enough to make that called shot.

*holds up other hand* Slow and painful death that involves me dying in a pool of my own vomit.

Yeah. Sorry. The first option has, at least, the chance of surviving the encounter while my team provides cover, Lays down cover fire, does a strategic retreat so that anyone who failed against the puke grenade can evacuate their stomachs under cover and potentially live another day. That sounds like a WAY better deal than "R.I.P. Private Griff. Died Choking On His Own Vomit".


Yeah... But Sarge would like the second choice. He'd probably be the one that accidentally apoxied the faceplate and accidentally dropped the puke grenade.


You've just been SARGE'D!!
Hotrod wrote:I haven't noticed saints getting the bad end of the bargain at all. Sure, a lot of them die in pain and poverty. A lot of jerks die in agony, betrayal, and humiliation, often taking their own lives rather than having to face the consequences of what they've done.
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