Books which RUE references

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Axelmania
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Books which RUE references

Unread post by Axelmania »

I was thinking it would be useful to put together a list of pages of RUE where it refers to other Rifts books, particularly Rifts books which came out prior to RUE.

I believe this would be helpful since in some cases people have been claiming that RUE cancels out earlier books.

To get things started...

239: references WB14 (New West) in the left column
261: references WB11 (CWC) twice (left and right column) along with the Game Master Guide (right column)
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by eliakon »

The issue is not that RUE references books that came out before it.
That is not in doubt, as no one ever claimed that suddenly all the other books stopped existing.

What is claimed is that if a rule in an old book and a rule in RUE conflict, then the rule in RUE takes precedence.
The theory being that if there is a conflict between materials that the most recently printed rule is the, current, official stance.

There is a rather significant difference between the two.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:The issue is not that RUE references books that came out before it.
That is not in doubt, as no one ever claimed that suddenly all the other books stopped existing.

What is claimed is that if a rule in an old book and a rule in RUE conflict, then the rule in RUE takes precedence.
The theory being that if there is a conflict between materials that the most recently printed rule is the, current, official stance.

There is a rather significant difference between the two.


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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Axelmania »

People can differ on where they see conflicts. "B replaces A" v "B supplements A". It is still good to log these mentions for establishing retro acknowledgements.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by HWalsh »

Axelmania wrote:People can differ on where they see conflicts. "B replaces A" v "B supplements A". It is still good to log these mentions for establishing retro acknowledgements.


Not really.

There are no "rules" that supplement rules not in RUE. They are replacements. All of them.

Base attacks/round being 4 replaces the old rule of 2.

All missiles always strike main body isn't some method to supplement guided missiles from earlier books. The RUE rules should be viewed in a vacuum. It makes no sense to assume they assume mechanics from other books are in play.

You made this thread because people disagreed with your opinion that all missiles always strike the main body meaning only when missiles are self guided under the semantic that the sentence refers only when the missile itself is initiating the attack.

All missiles refers to any missile. Guided or not. Regardless of the intent or desire of the shooter.

4 attacks per round base for all HtH Combat styles means all of them. Period. Even if something already got 4 attacks per round.

There is a degree of base logic needed to interpret the meaning of a sentence, which includes a rule. Then there are "fringe interpretations" which are created due to intentional or unintentional misunderstandings of base parlance.

This is the same "fringe interpretations" we see in real world conspiracy theories.

Example: Area 51 is a secure military base has aliens inside it in the real world, because the military won't let us onto the base to look. If they didn't have aliens they have nothing to hide.

Areas 1-50 won't let you enter either. It's not due to Aliens.

Example: If a monster says, "The officer met with an unfortunate accident." They are being truthful, because the text doesn't say they killed the officer.

No. That is a cliche. We know what that phrase, when used by that person, in that context, means. Much like sending someone back in a body bag means they killed them.

In cases where common phrasing is used the common is correct unless explicit stated not to be. Thus all missiles strike main body means all missiles always hit and deal damage to the main body of a target rather that components not named, explicitly, as the main body.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Axelmania »

Your assertion we should view RUE in a vacuum is exactly why I think it is important to identify the places within Ultimate that it says not to do so by encouraging the reading of other books.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by HWalsh »

Axelmania wrote:Your assertion we should view RUE in a vacuum is exactly why I think it is important to identify the places within Ultimate that it says not to do so by encouraging the reading of other books.


Encouraging the reading of other books, mostly for gear and OCCs, is not saying to overwrite the rules in RUE. Otherwise, the first reference would overrule the HtH changes, among many other things.

The most recently published rule is the rule period.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Mack »

HWalsh wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Your assertion we should view RUE in a vacuum is exactly why I think it is important to identify the places within Ultimate that it says not to do so by encouraging the reading of other books.


Encouraging the reading of other books, mostly for gear and OCCs, is not saying to overwrite the rules in RUE. Otherwise, the first reference would overrule the HtH changes, among many other things.

The most recently published rule is the rule period.

HWalsh is correct.

The RUE references to earlier books are informational (and a bit of marketing to sell other books).
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by HWalsh »

Mack wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Your assertion we should view RUE in a vacuum is exactly why I think it is important to identify the places within Ultimate that it says not to do so by encouraging the reading of other books.


Encouraging the reading of other books, mostly for gear and OCCs, is not saying to overwrite the rules in RUE. Otherwise, the first reference would overrule the HtH changes, among many other things.

The most recently published rule is the rule period.

HWalsh is correct.

The RUE references to earlier books are informational (and a bit of marketing to sell other books).


So, basically, the RUE statement that all missiles always strike the main body applies to all missiles, not just self guided missiles that are attacking on their own. For example.

Correct?

Previous books that may have allowed for "called shots" with missiles simply don't apply.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Beyond that, you can't have your (new) Core Rulebook (Ultimate Edition) referrence your (old, no longer in print) Core Rulebook in order to be a complete set of rules.

That's just absurd on it's face.

RUE is the core Rulebook now. The entirety of the old Core Rulebook is out, not just in cases where it doesn't conflict, but.. period. It's no longer in print, so a player could not be expected to be able to own a copy. You literally CANT referrence it. Because it is unavailable.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Axelmania »

I am talking about CWC and GMG not RMB.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by HWalsh »

Axelmania wrote:I am talking about CWC and GMG not RMB.


Doesn't matter. CWC and GMG are both pre-RUE. Any rule in RUE overrides any rules in any previous book. Period.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by RockJock »

You either go with the idea that RUE is a complete game, as advertised, or you need a catalog of books to play RUE. Your choice.

I go with the complete game idea myself. The older books are there for fluff, or to pull things from, but I'm not going to downgrade a Cyber Knight or Psistalker to an older version, not as a current rule set.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:People can differ on where they see conflicts. "B replaces A" v "B supplements A". It is still good to log these mentions for establishing retro acknowledgements.

With rules and laws the new replaces the old.
Your B supplemetns A applied would be like.
Slavery was abolished during the civil war.
However we have a supplement saying that if your parent was a slave you are a slave.
Makes it there is no slavery unless you are descended from a slave then you are a slave.
(That is the logic of outdated rules and laws changing currant laws.)

As we have two laws(rules that are made by governments) in contradiction and we know no one in the US can legally be a slave we can conclude that out dated rules/laws can not change currant ones even if there are references to them.

You can reference old laws for your own information or scholarly pursuit but they do not change the currant laws.

The book in question can have lots of supplementary information such as weapons and PA but an old rule can not change the currant rule. That is just not how rules and laws work.

And before you bring it up grandfathering is not changing the currant rules but allowing you to continue with the rule you started with until you do something to change it. So if you started in a pre-rue game you can continue playing at such and not introduce RUE until you roll up new charters, that does not change the currant rules.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Axelmania »

New rules supplant only where they contradict.

This thread is intended to discuss where RUE references other books, not which rules we think contradict or do not.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:New rules supplant only where they contradict.

This thread is intended to discuss where RUE references other books, not which rules we think contradict or do not.

This thread was created to support your debate in another thread.
In the case of the other thread there is a contradiction but you are using vocab gymnastics to try to change the rules.

Your precised intent is to use this thread to gather ammunition for another topic, so as was pointed out no one says the other books do not exist. Just that the earlier books do not change the rules in RUE. So it is understandable that so many people are posting here as it would be used for your unsupported theory on missiles.

Your supplement post shows you are trying to debate changing the rules based on outdated rules.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Axelmania wrote:New rules supplant only where they contradict.


Because you say so? :P
Last edited by Nekira Sudacne on Fri May 05, 2017 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by HWalsh »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:New rules supplant only where they contradict.

This thread is intended to discuss where RUE references other books, not which rules we think contradict or do not.

This thread was created to support your debate in another thread.
In the case of the other thread there is a contradiction but you are using vocab gymnastics to try to change the rules.

Your precised intent is to use this thread to gather ammunition for another topic, so as was pointed out no one says the other books do not exist. Just that the earlier books do not change the rules in RUE. So it is understandable that so many people are posting here as it would be used for your unsupported theory on missiles.

Your supplement post shows you are trying to debate changing the rules based on outdated rules.


This... In spades.

You have a history, Axel, of making outlandish claims then attempting to discredit common sense, and correct, statements, then playing innocent. You try to base arguments on literal, not intended, or commonly used, words when you want something. Usually this causes a feedback argument in the threads that get them locked.

I'm this case, you created this thread so that you could gain ammunition for your Glitterboy Missiles thread when it appeared that you lost your argument. The goal, of course, being simple. You could get the opposing posters here to say a statement that appeared in agreement with your Glitterboys thesis so that you could turn it on them, or, alternatively gather some kind of evidence to prove that you were right all along.

Unfortunately, in this case, a Palladium writer chimed in and killed your argument. RUE rules take precedent over all previous rules in any even remote case of conflict. Since we know this is about the GBK missile thread the topic is relevant to the purpose of this thread.

I'm just using the example that CWC mentions GBKs targeting GB Boom Guns. Though RUE says that such a thing cannot happen. That is an example of reference context.

As for a list of books mentioned in RUE there are a number of them.

CWC, of course.
Triax and the NGR.
Book of Magic.
Federation of Magic.
I'm pretty sure Vampire Kingdoms as well.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Axelmania »

Blue_Lion wrote:This thread was created to support your debate in another thread.

No, that made me think of it, but this is a much broader concept which can relate to any arguments which criticize older books, or any questions regarding which Rifts books are acknowledged by the Rifts Ultimate Edition.

For example: did any Carella books like Underseas or South America get a mention?

If they didn't, while that wouldn't mean that they are not canon, it is a significant thing to observe as to which books got a nod and which didn't.

Blue_Lion wrote:Your precised intent is to use this thread to gather ammunition for another topic

You are not a telepath, kindly don't declare my intentions as if you speak for me. Please stay on-topic and list RUE pages which mention other books or move on. I don't want this derailed by arguments anymore. I should've just ignored all these posts which didn't do that. Explaining my reasons for wanting a thread about this isn't an invitation to have them debated. The reasons for the thread don't matter, only whether or not people want to participate and point out other places in RUE which mention other books.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:This thread was created to support your debate in another thread.

No, that made me think of it, but this is a much broader concept which can relate to any arguments which criticize older books, or any questions regarding which Rifts books are acknowledged by the Rifts Ultimate Edition.

For example: did any Carella books like Underseas or South America get a mention?

If they didn't, while that wouldn't mean that they are not canon, it is a significant thing to observe as to which books got a nod and which didn't.

You don't get to define Canon sorry.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Axelmania »

Underseas and South America ARE official rule books.

I'm saying that I am not arguing to de-canonize them on the basis of RUE not mentioning them.

Stating I am not altering the canon is about as far as you can get from saying I define canon.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Weather or not a book is mention in RUE is irrelevant to cannon and validity of rules they contained.
Any rule that contradicts RUE that was printed before it is out dated or obsolete and not part of currant cannon.
Not sure why you find this such a hard concept to understand.

*Note most of the content of world books are flavor not rule, the are to add flavor/charter to the world and not what I would call a rule book. They may have some rules in them but that does not make them rule books. Rule books are the core books that you need to play a game, in DnD that would be players handbook GMG and monster manual, in rifts it is RUE.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Axelmania »

The topic of this thread is identifying pages in RUE which mention other books, not to discuss what those mentions are relevant to, so let's please return to that.
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Re: Books which RUE references

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:The topic of this thread is identifying pages in RUE which mention other books, not to discuss what those mentions are relevant to, so let's please return to that.

Seams no one has a interest in helping you with it.
I would think what/how something is being reference is relevant to it being referenced in general.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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