Thousands of MDC: How do you handle it?

[Greepnak]

Hi. So we're going through Minion War content in our game. While most demons have 1000 MDC or less which is fully practical for a party of four high-octane characters to chew through, what about Magot and the like that have 3000+ MDC while forcing constant saving throws to avoid game over effects (petrify in this case)? If you were GMing the encounter, how would you manage that and keep combat fun and risky without turning into a slog of bullet sponge?

[guardiandashi]

well there are a number of things you can do but it all depends on how you interpret the petrify ability.

reading dimension book 10 Hades which lists them the maggots "only" have 1d4X1000 MDC on rifts earth 1/2 of that elseware.
if the character is in full environmental armor you could also treat the petrification effect more like one interpretation of the old disintegration beam from beholders in D&D essentially it "can" petrify a character but 1st they have to hit (only get a +4 to strike)
next you could run it as the 13+ save means it petrifies a piece of gear not the character, which also means it could "only" petrify armor and not the char themselves
next the maggot unless the party really tickes it off is only going to petrify them for 1d6 minutes unless it spends 3 actions, and 80 of its 1d6x100 (100-600) ppe

another point is a "smart" group is going to shoot at the eye stalks I would say ~100-400 MDC will cripple an eye stalk ~5-10% of the total MDC sounds right to me.

basically instead of trying to "brute force" them try to think of ways to exploit their "weaknesses"
if you think about it the right way technology is a great leveler deamons are very powerful against "normal and low tech" groups but enough tech can chew them up just fine.

[Greepnak]

I had to settle on it petrifying a limb on the dragon hatchling. It's still a lot of.mdc though, at least for a party of four to hew through. I also don't have a sure idea of how to handle Jonah and the whale type attacks vs big foes like the blow worms of taut. Mega damage beIN what it is what keeps Hercules or Thor from just letting themselves be swallowed and punching out some demon kidneys?

[Eagle]

The magot's eye beams are temporary, right? Unless it's changed from the first conversion book, they change back in like 5 minutes. You can allow the PCs to all get turned to stone, and then maybe the magot wanders off for some reason. They aren't that smart, they may not decide to just stick around and smash the statues after the fighting has stopped. Let the players get turned to stone, then when they return to normal tell them how lucky they were to not be destroyed. Tell them to be smarter next time.

As far as dishing out thousands of MDC in a short amount of time, the old burst rules make that pretty easy. Any gun capable of burst fire could empty the e-clip and do its damage x10. Hand out two dozen laser rifles to people from town and tell them to combine fire. You'll do enough damage in one round to drop most monsters.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Just get bigger guns. And more of them.

[eliakon]

The demons with huge damage totals?
Yeah, there is a reason that they are considered super scary monsters and terror weapons by most people.
They aren't supposed to be something you can simply have a party of adventurers beat in a round or three of battle.

Now, sure you can change things up to allow it if you want...
...but there is a reason that they were given the power they were, so understand if your changing things up your going to change those factors as well.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I've never found many or any of the Demons (even the greater ones) to be particularly challenging to a group who plays to its own strengths.

How to kill a Maggot?

Shoot it to death from 1500+ feet.

That simple. Unless it is extremely high level its eye beams cant even reach that far, and it has no other ranged attacks of any kind.

Railguns, high-range lasers & particle beams.

Doesn't matter if you cant do more than a few hundred MDC a round, as it can't even fight back. Eventually it will flee or die. Either way, you've won.

It's one of the reasons the entire Minion War thing (particularly as Megaverse in Flames presents it on Rifts Earth - Dimensional Outbreak for Phase World is a LOT better about this) just doesn't fly for me is that the demons simply aren't that threatening to any high tech power.

A single platoon of CS troops is worth hundreds of their equivalent minions. Even when MiF armed them with some long range weapons (less than 10% of them, though), they still aren't that dangerous, being largely still outranged by CS troops. Even their demonic vehicles and armor is outclassed by simple high technology.

Add vehicles to the mix and the demons and deevils are just so much fodder. A tank platoon of CTX-50 Line Backer MBTs will turn thousands of demons or more into dogmeat. It's a giant turkey shoot. A single Line Backer could handily obliterate a Maggot in just a few rounds and never even be in danger.

[Incriptus]

I'm not proud of it, but I got bored.

I said the Metzla must of taken damage previously and only had about 2500 of his MDC left.

[Blue_Lion]

Planing major threats can require prep work to deal with.

Examples -
A-forward observer calls in a Time on Target on the maggot hitting it with MRM, LRM or even indrect artillery.

B-Use of vehicles to stay out of its reach while shooting it.

C- Use of circle of protection demons or other protective magic.

D- Lead it into a bomb made of of large amount of NG plastic explosives.

E- Call in air support, Larson has a sky castle, CS has a bombers and attack air craft, NG sales a attack air craft, heck golden age has a MD A10 that can Brrrrrrrrrrp it.

F- Summon earth elemental to attack it from below ground.(does paralise work on a creature made of stone?)

G-Use tanks and giant robots (magic does not affect those inside vehicles and I do not think you can paralise the vehicle but I may be wrong.) It is like fighting a tank with a tank.

H-Use tailsmen to keep it inside a anti magic cloud while you shoot it with normal MDC weapons and missile vollies.

I- Use of ninja and super spies atemi like powers, Dim mak can reduce its MDC by 1/3 the first time it used, the wither atemi can reduce its MDC by 1/4 down to 1(or two depending on how your rule the half power and MD)

J-Let the robots troops such as skellebots destroy it.

K- Find a way to magically teleport it away or better yet to another dimension. (dropping it in a Xit hive might be fun way to get rid of it and kill some xit.)

[Greepnak]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

[Blue_Lion]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

But are your playing in a valcume. Big threats you might need help for.

[Axelmania]

I like the lure them I to explosive strategy but isn't there something g cheaper than NG plastique?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

Doesn't require anything of the sort though. As i pointed out, a single CS Linebacker tank could kill it and never even be in danger of being counterattacked.

If the PCs have any vehicles worth a darn, they should have weapons that handily outrange even a max-level Maggot's eye beam.

It's literally a walking meatsack incapable of fighting back in any other way.

4-6 PCs armed with RMB guns can kill it, much less if they have access to even SB1 guns (Wilks 457 pulse rifles @ 2000ft) or other material from later sourcebooks.

If they want to stay truly safe, the JA-11 has an impressive 4000ft range, as do all of the man-portable Railguns.

[eliakon]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

Doesn't require anything of the sort though. As i pointed out, a single CS Linebacker tank could kill it and never even be in danger of being counterattacked.

If the PCs have any vehicles worth a darn, they should have weapons that handily outrange even a max-level Maggot's eye beam.

It's literally a walking meatsack incapable of fighting back in any other way.

4-6 PCs armed with RMB guns can kill it, much less if they have access to even SB1 guns (Wilks 457 pulse rifles @ 2000ft) or other material from later sourcebooks.

If they want to stay truly safe, the JA-11 has an impressive 4000ft range, as do all of the man-portable Railguns.

You do realize that the Maggot can both Turn to Mist at will, and Dimensional Teleport 25% (which other threads have pointed out allows for teleportation between two points inside a dimension... like next to you)
So yeah
If you are lucky enough to be fighting a single greater demon. AND one of the rare ones that has no magic or psychic powers AND then have enough fire power to kill it in a single round (In fact more likely need to kill in in one or two actions)...
...your golden.
Other wise, your back into "oh crap this could be really, really hard"

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

Doesn't require anything of the sort though. As i pointed out, a single CS Linebacker tank could kill it and never even be in danger of being counterattacked.

If the PCs have any vehicles worth a darn, they should have weapons that handily outrange even a max-level Maggot's eye beam.

It's literally a walking meatsack incapable of fighting back in any other way.

4-6 PCs armed with RMB guns can kill it, much less if they have access to even SB1 guns (Wilks 457 pulse rifles @ 2000ft) or other material from later sourcebooks.

If they want to stay truly safe, the JA-11 has an impressive 4000ft range, as do all of the man-portable Railguns.

You do realize that the Maggot can both Turn to Mist at will, and Dimensional Teleport 25% (which other threads have pointed out allows for teleportation between two points inside a dimension... like next to you)
So yeah
If you are lucky enough to be fighting a single greater demon. AND one of the rare ones that has no magic or psychic powers AND then have enough fire power to kill it in a single round (In fact more likely need to kill in in one or two actions)...
...your golden.
Other wise, your back into "oh crap this could be really, really hard"

This wasn't "any greater demon"

i answered the question of how to deal with the situation as presented - a lone maggot.

If it turns to mist... battle won.

If it retreats.. battle won.

If we aren't dead, our goals are accomplished... battle won.

Not every "win" condition is "kill all the bad guys".

[eliakon]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

Doesn't require anything of the sort though. As i pointed out, a single CS Linebacker tank could kill it and never even be in danger of being counterattacked.

If the PCs have any vehicles worth a darn, they should have weapons that handily outrange even a max-level Maggot's eye beam.

It's literally a walking meatsack incapable of fighting back in any other way.

4-6 PCs armed with RMB guns can kill it, much less if they have access to even SB1 guns (Wilks 457 pulse rifles @ 2000ft) or other material from later sourcebooks.

If they want to stay truly safe, the JA-11 has an impressive 4000ft range, as do all of the man-portable Railguns.

You do realize that the Maggot can both Turn to Mist at will, and Dimensional Teleport 25% (which other threads have pointed out allows for teleportation between two points inside a dimension... like next to you)
So yeah
If you are lucky enough to be fighting a single greater demon. AND one of the rare ones that has no magic or psychic powers AND then have enough fire power to kill it in a single round (In fact more likely need to kill in in one or two actions)...
...your golden.
Other wise, your back into "oh crap this could be really, really hard"

This wasn't "any greater demon"

i answered the question of how to deal with the situation as presented - a lone maggot.

If it turns to mist... battle won.

If it retreats.. battle won.

If we aren't dead, our goals are accomplished... battle won.

Not every "win" condition is "kill all the bad guys".

Why are you presuming that it would retreat though?
If it teleports next to you, then you suddenly don't have a range advantage.
Just like if it turns to mist and then takes advantage of its invulnerability to close.
Though to be honest I can't think of a situation where a fight against a maggot would be one where killing it or driving it off is the goal... but that there is no other goal for it but to kill you all

Like I said... arbitrary set pieces with contrived conditions and a foe that ignores all of its powers is a pretty wimpy threat...
...but that sort of requires... contrived conditions and a foe that ignores all of its powers.

[Blue_Lion]

I like the lure them I to explosive strategy but isn't there something cheaper than NG plastique?

If you use multiple smaller bombs you might be able to pull it off providing the GM does not modify the damage. THE NG plastique has damage by weight meaning you know how much explosive to use.

I imagine a CS eod might be able to come up with something else.

THe NG plastiquic is fairly cheep for damage output.
A mine that does 2d6X 10 is 6K while a pound of NG 6 cost 960 doing 2d4X 10 +20.

So to kill a maggot you will need at least 50 pounds(placing the charge as something that would need to be placed by a team or 1 supernatural creature) giving you a damage code of 2d4X 500 + 1000. So you are looking at a cost of 50K. Killing it with missiles or mines would be allot more expensive.

In addition I would expect a team of SN could throw something with a weight of say 65 pounds(50 pound of explosive and some sort of casing should have top weight less than that) a decent distance like a heavy grenade or satchel charge. A flier(such as a gargoyle or dragon) could drop said bomb a tactic that Tolkeen was said to use.

The biggest issue is we do not have a blast radius for said bomb. Making it a GM call on how far you need to toss it.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Why are you presuming that it would retreat though?

Because it doesn't want to die. While it may not be permanent, it takes hundreds of years to come back and hurts.

If it teleports next to you, then you suddenly don't have a range advantage.

A - it has to know where i am to "teleport next to me". If i'm 3000ft+ away, it doesn't know exactly where i am, merely that im "over that way". It is not omniscient. It cant see through walls, terrain, trees, or obstructions.

B - its going to fail 75% of the time, even if it DOES know where i'm at.

Just like if it turns to mist and then takes advantage of its invulnerability to close.

Yeah, because im going to stand there with jaw agape and just let it close in on me? Are you serious? "Gee, what is that wall of mist doing? Maybe i should move."

Though to be honest I can't think of a situation where a fight against a maggot would be one where killing it or driving it off is the goal... but that there is no other goal for it but to kill you all

Because there's a village in the way of its rampage. We need it to not kill the village. So we run it off or kill it. That was a tough scenario to come up with!

Like I said... arbitrary set pieces with contrived conditions and a foe that ignores all of its powers is a pretty wimpy threat...
...but that sort of requires... contrived conditions and a foe that ignores all of its powers.

Just like your situation requires the NPC to be omniscient and relies on the PCs standing out in the open like morons and not moving when it starts to close in on them.

Which situation is more contrived?

And we're not even getting into a party of PCs that is more than dudes in armor with guns and their individual vehicles here. A couple of Power-Armor equipped guys with Flying Titan, SAMAS, or other air-mobile PA? It can literally do nothing except get shot and die or run away.

Up against a tank? Same. It cant move fast enough to close the distance, it cant petrify the tank, and even if it teleports near the tank, the tank can just.. drive away while continuing to shoot the crap out of it.... faster than the Maggot can follow.

Large robot? Some of them are slow enough that they couldn't run away from a maggot that had a high spd for its race.... but a lot of them could quite plainly kick it's ass up between its ears. Cant be petrified, and its melee attacks can all be parried.... while the crew is blasting away at it, and a lot of large robots have missiles that could put paid to the thing outright.

I really need to figure out the bug that is preventing me from signing in on my iPad so i can go back to not reading your posts. You're ignored for a reason, and now i remember why.

[Blue_Lion]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

Doesn't require anything of the sort though. As i pointed out, a single CS Linebacker tank could kill it and never even be in danger of being counterattacked.

If the PCs have any vehicles worth a darn, they should have weapons that handily outrange even a max-level Maggot's eye beam.

It's literally a walking meatsack incapable of fighting back in any other way.

4-6 PCs armed with RMB guns can kill it, much less if they have access to even SB1 guns (Wilks 457 pulse rifles @ 2000ft) or other material from later sourcebooks.

If they want to stay truly safe, the JA-11 has an impressive 4000ft range, as do all of the man-portable Railguns.

You do realize that the Maggot can both Turn to Mist at will, and Dimensional Teleport 25% (which other threads have pointed out allows for teleportation between two points inside a dimension... like next to you)
So yeah
If you are lucky enough to be fighting a single greater demon. AND one of the rare ones that has no magic or psychic powers AND then have enough fire power to kill it in a single round (In fact more likely need to kill in in one or two actions)...
...your golden.
Other wise, your back into "oh crap this could be really, really hard"

Can a dimensional teleport teleport to the same plane of existence.(I was under the imprecision it was a power to change dimensions not travel on the same one.) You are also giving them a greater accuracy on dimensional teleport than a shiftier has.
The mist would be annoying but as most demons are a bit over confident if you make him use it then he is already worried about the fight and pose a threat.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

Doesn't require anything of the sort though. As i pointed out, a single CS Linebacker tank could kill it and never even be in danger of being counterattacked.

If the PCs have any vehicles worth a darn, they should have weapons that handily outrange even a max-level Maggot's eye beam.

It's literally a walking meatsack incapable of fighting back in any other way.

4-6 PCs armed with RMB guns can kill it, much less if they have access to even SB1 guns (Wilks 457 pulse rifles @ 2000ft) or other material from later sourcebooks.

If they want to stay truly safe, the JA-11 has an impressive 4000ft range, as do all of the man-portable Railguns.

You do realize that the Maggot can both Turn to Mist at will, and Dimensional Teleport 25% (which other threads have pointed out allows for teleportation between two points inside a dimension... like next to you)
So yeah
If you are lucky enough to be fighting a single greater demon. AND one of the rare ones that has no magic or psychic powers AND then have enough fire power to kill it in a single round (In fact more likely need to kill in in one or two actions)...
...your golden.
Other wise, your back into "oh crap this could be really, really hard"

Can a dimensional teleport teleport to the same plane of existence.(I was under the imprecision it was a power to change dimensions not travel on the same one.) You are also giving them a greater accuracy on dimensional teleport than a shiftier has.
The mist would be annoying but as most demons are a bit over confident if you make him use it then he is already worried about the fight and pose a threat.

Im willing to concede the dimensional teleport point (that it can be used on the same dimension) just because im sure its been discussed. It's still not a reliable tactic, as even if it gets close, you can simply move off faster than it can catch you if you have even a basic vehicle like a hovercycle, motorcycle, or similar. Your vehicle cant be petrified, and it has no other ranged attacks of any kind. Once you're about 100ft from it... you're fine.

And it's going to fail 75% of the time anyway.

Now, as to the accuracy of Dimensional Teleport? Good question, i dont know.

[Axelmania]

You do realize that the Maggot can both Turn to Mist at will, and Dimensional Teleport 25% (which other threads have pointed out allows for teleportation between two points inside a dimension... like next to you)

*wonders if "turn into mist" abilities come with an implied "turn back into normal body from mist" reversion ability...*

I didn't remember they could do this even though they've had the ability since Palladium RPG page 179...

Do you recall ways to hurt things in mist form? I was wondering if the CS Mind Melters might be able to use Psi-Sword or Electrokinesis or similar, otherwise you'd figure there'd be big problems with vampires/magots simply wafting into Chi-Town. It can't remain air-tight everywhere forever or they'd suffocate, one would assume.

[HWalsh]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

That is actually simply a pitfall of an all (anything) squad. You won't have the tools to handle any threat. An all supernatural squad would need range, range is the domain of tech. In fact, this enemy is actually easy to beat with tech.

The best way? Ambush it.

Scout it, lure it into an area with 10 primed 4d6*10 Fusion Blocks, drop a CoA, fall back, have a Glitterboy, or equivalent, start pelting it out of range.

Assume in 2 rounds the GB is going to fire off 14-16 rounds easily.

The Fusion Blocks will go off and do around 1400 MD.

3d6*10 per shot, that is an average 100-110 MD per shot, so in 2 rounds at 7 per round, that is 700 per round, or 1400 in 2 rounds, combined with the previous average of 1400 for the fusion blocks, that is 2800, if it has 3000 then it is only a matter of time at that point.

You should be able to get some damage through before it mists. If it teleports just fall back and hammer it where it appears while stuck. You have the advantage of turning into mist also not being fast moving, or instantaneous, so you can move around and take advantage that way.

[Blue_Lion]

Hmm. Good points raised, though the options of using BFGs like the sky fortress and stuff wouldnt work for my scenarios ( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

That is actually simply a pitfall of an all (anything) squad. You won't have the tools to handle any threat. An all supernatural squad would need range, range is the domain of tech. In fact, this enemy is actually easy to beat with tech.

The best way? Ambush it.

Scout it, lure it into an area with 10 primed 4d6*10 Fusion Blocks, drop a CoA, fall back, have a Glitterboy, or equivalent, start pelting it out of range.

Assume in 2 rounds the GB is going to fire off 14-16 rounds easily.

The Fusion Blocks will go off and do around 1400 MD.

3d6*10 per shot, that is an average 100-110 MD per shot, so in 2 rounds at 7 per round, that is 700 per round, or 1400 in 2 rounds, combined with the previous average of 1400 for the fusion blocks, that is 2800, if it has 3000 then it is only a matter of time at that point.

You should be able to get some damage through before it mists. If it teleports just fall back and hammer it where it appears while stuck. You have the advantage of turning into mist also not being fast moving, or instantaneous, so you can move around and take advantage that way.

Or instead of traping them in place for your time bomb to go off you can just use say 50 pounds of NG 6(damage per pound used) plastiquic and do 2d4X50 +1000 making the minimal damage 2K and average damage over 3K and one shot it. (No risk of a GM saying well you do not get the full damage from the fusion blocks because they did not all go off some where destroyed before they blew up.) You would also save 30K and reduce weight by 110 pounds by going with the plastic explosives from NG. Given that the bomb can be set off by remote or command wire you have more control over it or can be reasonably assumed to set off by pressure plate.

Fusion blocks are horrible bomb compared to the stuff in rifts mercenaries. If you want to blow it up go with the NG 6 plastic MD explosive. For the cost of 1 type 3 fusion block you can get 8 pounds that does 2d4X10 +20 per pound. Half the weight and over three times the damage.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

( we're prettymuch rocking party of supernaturals vs enemy supernaturals)

Well, as was already said that's a pitfall of a party that is super focused on one type of character, though im intrigued at a party of supernaturals who dont use guns.

What do they do when they get ambushed by guys with guns from 1300-2000ft away?

Every character i've ever played, even melee-centric ones, has carried a gun (even the sole dragon i ever played - carried a C-27 Plasma Cannon that i took from the corpse of the CS soldier who had been using it against me as i had to wade into his fire to kill him).

[Mack]

Hi. So we're going through Minion War content in our game. While most demons have 1000 MDC or less which is fully practical for a party of four high-octane characters to chew through, what about Magot and the like that have 3000+ MDC while forcing constant saving throws to avoid game over effects (petrify in this case)? If you were GMing the encounter, how would you manage that and keep combat fun and risky without turning into a slog of bullet sponge?

Saving throws work both ways. Bombard it with incapacitating magic spells, then execute the darned thing. And don't be too proud to use cheap low level spells like Blinding Flash (-10 to Strike/Parry/Dodge ain't nothing to laugh at.) Bad news is that it can See the Invisible, so you'll need another way of getting in close.

If you do have to slug it out, target those three eye-stalks first. You'll have a penalty to hit to do it, but it'll pay off once done.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Also, Mystic Invisibility (Combat Magic, which is just incantation magic, from Mercenary Adventures) successfully counters See The Invisible.

And See the Invisible has a mediocre range, so if you can fight from mid-range (with your own magic), Simple Invisibility provides a -10 penalty to hit you and allows you to take offensive actions.

[Blue_Lion]

Also, Mystic Invisibility (Combat Magic, which is just incantation magic, from Mercenary Adventures) successfully counters See The Invisible.

And See the Invisible has a mediocre range, so if you can fight from mid-range (with your own magic), Simple Invisibility provides a -10 penalty to hit you and allows you to take offensive actions.

The spell has range the creature power typically does not. They just see invisible normally.

[Eagle]

Also, Mystic Invisibility (Combat Magic, which is just incantation magic, from Mercenary Adventures) successfully counters See The Invisible.

And See the Invisible has a mediocre range, so if you can fight from mid-range (with your own magic), Simple Invisibility provides a -10 penalty to hit you and allows you to take offensive actions.

The spell has range the creature power typically does not. They just see invisible normally.

Do we have anything in writing on that? I've always treated monster abilities that had the same name as spells, as if they worked just like the spells.

Like when it gives a monster a dimensional teleport ability, I always assumed it wasn't something they could just do with an attack action, it actually took the same amount of time that casting the spell would.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Yeah, ive never seen anything that states the the innate power works any differently than the spell or psionic ability it is mimicking in Palladium's rules.

Just like when they turn invisible at will, its just invisibility: lesser at will. its exactly like the spell in all ways. (And that is in writing somewhere.. GMG maybe?)

[Blue_Lion]

Also, Mystic Invisibility (Combat Magic, which is just incantation magic, from Mercenary Adventures) successfully counters See The Invisible.

And See the Invisible has a mediocre range, so if you can fight from mid-range (with your own magic), Simple Invisibility provides a -10 penalty to hit you and allows you to take offensive actions.

The spell has range the creature power typically does not. They just see invisible normally.

Do we have anything in writing on that? I've always treated monster abilities that had the same name as spells, as if they worked just like the spells.

Like when it gives a monster a dimensional teleport ability, I always assumed it wasn't something they could just do with an attack action, it actually took the same amount of time that casting the spell would.

Key word assumed. Do you have anything in writing that says your what you assumed was correct?
If it has a PPE cost then it is acting like a spell, if not it is a innate ability that is just similar but different power and not casting spell.

Do you have anything in writing that says it acts just like the spell, or did you just assume it did?
The displayed pattern is when a natural sensory ability has some sort of range limit from normal senses they tell you, like night vision 60'. I have never played with any one that assumed the creatures natural see invisible ability had the range limit of a spell that grants an artificial ability to see invisible. It was just treated as something they always did. (note the spell amulet was always treated the same when you wore it in this regards.)


My assumption is when sensing something has a limit to the range it works at different from natural senses they tell you.
The low level spell has a range limit listed to its see the invisible and a duration, Amulet spell page 143 just says it enables you to see the invisible while you where it with no rage limit and does not say like the spell.

[Eagle]

Also, Mystic Invisibility (Combat Magic, which is just incantation magic, from Mercenary Adventures) successfully counters See The Invisible.

And See the Invisible has a mediocre range, so if you can fight from mid-range (with your own magic), Simple Invisibility provides a -10 penalty to hit you and allows you to take offensive actions.

The spell has range the creature power typically does not. They just see invisible normally.

Do we have anything in writing on that? I've always treated monster abilities that had the same name as spells, as if they worked just like the spells.

Like when it gives a monster a dimensional teleport ability, I always assumed it wasn't something they could just do with an attack action, it actually took the same amount of time that casting the spell would.

Key word assumed. Do you have anything in writing that says your what you assumed was correct?
If it has a PPE cost then it is acting like a spell, if not it is a innate ability that is just similar but different power and not casting spell.

Do you have anything in writing that says it acts just like the spell, or did you just assume it did?
The displayed pattern is when a natural sensory ability has some sort of range limit from normal senses they tell you, like night vision 60'. I have never played with any one that assumed the creatures natural see invisible ability had the range limit of a spell that grants an artificial ability to see invisible. It was just treated as something they always did. (note the spell amulet was always treated the same when you wore it in this regards.)


My assumption is when sensing something has a limit to the range it works at different from natural senses they tell you.
The low level spell has a range limit listed to its see the invisible and a duration, Amulet spell page 143 just says it enables you to see the invisible while you where it with no rage limit and does not say like the spell.

So your answer is "No, there's nothing in the books to support it". Good to know.

[eliakon]

Also, Mystic Invisibility (Combat Magic, which is just incantation magic, from Mercenary Adventures) successfully counters See The Invisible.

And See the Invisible has a mediocre range, so if you can fight from mid-range (with your own magic), Simple Invisibility provides a -10 penalty to hit you and allows you to take offensive actions.

The spell has range the creature power typically does not. They just see invisible normally.

Do we have anything in writing on that? I've always treated monster abilities that had the same name as spells, as if they worked just like the spells.

Like when it gives a monster a dimensional teleport ability, I always assumed it wasn't something they could just do with an attack action, it actually took the same amount of time that casting the spell would.

Key word assumed. Do you have anything in writing that says your what you assumed was correct?
If it has a PPE cost then it is acting like a spell, if not it is a innate ability that is just similar but different power and not casting spell.

Do you have anything in writing that says it acts just like the spell, or did you just assume it did?
The displayed pattern is when a natural sensory ability has some sort of range limit from normal senses they tell you, like night vision 60'. I have never played with any one that assumed the creatures natural see invisible ability had the range limit of a spell that grants an artificial ability to see invisible. It was just treated as something they always did. (note the spell amulet was always treated the same when you wore it in this regards.)


My assumption is when sensing something has a limit to the range it works at different from natural senses they tell you.
The low level spell has a range limit listed to its see the invisible and a duration, Amulet spell page 143 just says it enables you to see the invisible while you where it with no rage limit and does not say like the spell.

So your answer is "No, there's nothing in the books to support it". Good to know.

No, he provided the reasoning behind it to.
That being that every other limited range sensory power in the game has the range limit on it...
...since this one DOESNT say "See invisible 200'" or what ever then it would seem that they can, in fact, just see the invisible.
Which is good because there are more than one source of "see invisible" power and they don't all have the same statistics. Which makes assuming which one the author was really-thinking-of-but-didn't-write-about-because-the-books-don't-need-to-include-details-like-that tricky.

[Greepnak]

I have often wondered about that with "see invisible and turn invisible at will". Is it equivalent to simple invis where you can fight Predator style, or Superior invis where you are a ghost but can't fight? I've waffled on several interpretations.

Regarding thread subject specifically..

In order to speed up hefty combat, has anyone thought of just reducing the number of dice rolls by turning Parry and Dodge into basically old ADnD style THAC0 -esque to-hit? Like if the target has +11 to parry, then that is the melee to-hit roll the attacker needs to roll over. ( or lets say maybe Parry/Dodge +5)

Though I find the opposed dice rolls quite fun and exciting sometimes...

Also, anyone have any more thoughts on how to effectively manage jonah and the whale style "I fly into Belphegor's maw and start cosmic blasting his mofuggin demon kidneys" attacks? The nature of MDC and MDC combat seems to favor the idea of wearing environmental armor and just going Beowulf on things.

[Eagle]

I have often wondered about that with "see invisible and turn invisible at will". Is it equivalent to simple invis where you can fight Predator style, or Superior invis where you are a ghost but can't fight? I've waffled on several interpretations.

Regarding thread subject specifically..

In order to speed up hefty combat, has anyone thought of just reducing the number of dice rolls by turning Parry and Dodge into basically old ADnD style THAC0 -esque to-hit? Like if the target has +11 to parry, then that is the melee to-hit roll the attacker needs to roll over. ( or lets say maybe Parry/Dodge +5)

Though I find the opposed dice rolls quite fun and exciting sometimes...

Also, anyone have any more thoughts on how to effectively manage jonah and the whale style "I fly into Belphegor's maw and start cosmic blasting his mofuggin demon kidneys" attacks? The nature of MDC and MDC combat seems to favor the idea of wearing environmental armor and just going Beowulf on things.

I like opposed rolls. As long as the players are on top of things, I don't think it slows the game down. As far as Jonah and the whale, I'd treat all attacks from the inside as an automatic crit. Of course, that's assuming you can still move around and fight in there. Inside of a monster's mouth is a pretty dangerous location. Willingly flying in there is going to give them a free bite attack at a minimum, and probably let them initiate some sort of grapple against you.

[Axelmania]

Scout it, lure it into an area with 10 primed 4d6*10 Fusion Blocks, drop a CoA, fall back, have a Glitterboy, or equivalent, start pelting it out of range.

Assume in 2 rounds the GB is going to fire off 14-16 rounds easily.

The Fusion Blocks will go off and do around 1400 MD.

3d6*10 per shot, that is an average 100-110 MD per shot, so in 2 rounds at 7 per round, that is 700 per round, or 1400 in 2 rounds, combined with the previous average of 1400 for the fusion blocks, that is 2800, if it has 3000 then it is only a matter of time at that point.

You should be able to get some damage through before it mists. If it teleports just fall back and hammer it where it appears while stuck. You have the advantage of turning into mist also not being fast moving, or instantaneous, so you can move around and take advantage that way.

Fusion Blocks are great, but the CoA+Boomgun tactic would seem to depend on just how easy it is for them to turn into mist.

It's not exactly explained... like if it takes 1 attack or maybe longer... and if it takes longer (like how teleport lesser takes a full melee round, compared to a dragon's single-action teleport) can their focus be interrupted by being hurt?

See the Invisible has a mediocre range, so if you can fight from mid-range (with your own magic), Simple Invisibility provides a -10 penalty to hit you and allows you to take offensive actions.

As BL says, I think only the psionic power or spell have a range limitation. If it's listed without qualifiers as a natural ability I always figured it worked at the full range of sight.

Another great spell is "Eyes of the Wolf" since it gives See the Invisible but instead of a range limitation it has a percentile chance of working. Although I'm not sure how often you would roll that... kinda confusing. Maybe per each dice roll o see whether or not you take a -10 ? Like it flickers in and out 3/4 of the time?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I like opposed rolls. As long as the players are on top of things, I don't think it slows the game down.

It slows the game down, simply because there are more rolls going on. The question becomes, does it slow the game down too much?

However, ill agree that opposed rolls are the core of what makes Palladium, Palladium. Same with percentile skills.

I can (and have) written systems that would work for Rifts or other high tech fantasy settings just fine... but they wouldn't be Palladium, and they wouldn't feel like Palladium.

That's the issue.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I have often wondered about that with "see invisible and turn invisible at will".

Turn invisible at will is the second level spell, Invisibility: Lesser (or Simple?). That IS written somewhere. (I read it recently, but ive gone through 30 books recently, so i dont recall exactly where).

Is it equivalent to simple invis where you can fight Predator style, or Superior invis where you are a ghost but can't fight? I've waffled on several interpretations.

The "see invisible"..... discussion going on, i feel, is illustrative of Palladium's (I.E. Kevin's) assumption that everyone can read his mind and knows exactly what he means. He clearly has an idea for what it means. I write game systems semi professionally. In any system i wrote, if a creature ability worked differently from another otherwise identical game mechanic, i'd call it out so.

In this case, that's why i lean heavily on the side of "innate abilities of supernatural creatures or creatures of magic are identical the the spell they mimic" - because it is foolish and often game breaking to assume they are using a new/different game mechanic when a perfectly good and detailed one already exists. There is precedent for this since at the very least ONE supernatural ability (turn invisible at will) IS detailed as being the same as the spell.

[Greepnak]

I have often wondered about that with "see invisible and turn invisible at will".

Turn invisible at will is the second level spell, Invisibility: Lesser (or Simple?). That IS written somewhere. (I read it recently, but ive gone through 30 books recently, so i dont recall exactly where).

Is it equivalent to simple invis where you can fight Predator style, or Superior invis where you are a ghost but can't fight? I've waffled on several interpretations.

The "see invisible"..... discussion going on, i feel, is illustrative of Palladium's (I.E. Kevin's) assumption that everyone can read his mind and knows exactly what he means. He clearly has an idea for what it means. I write game systems semi professionally. In any system i wrote, if a creature ability worked differently from another otherwise identical game mechanic, i'd call it out so.

In this case, that's why i lean heavily on the side of "innate abilities of supernatural creatures or creatures of magic are identical the the spell they mimic" - because it is foolish and often game breaking to assume they are using a new/different game mechanic when a perfectly good and detailed one already exists. There is precedent for this since at the very least ONE supernatural ability (turn invisible at will) IS detailed as being the same as the spell.

Thank you Tetsuya! I have been chewing on the idea that at least sometimes, the innate invisibility should or could work as both depending on choice... otherwise "Turn invisible at will" as, say, a Godling selection would be completely negated in usefulness compared to "I take three magic picks". If it works as both then I can build a sort of "It Follows" (like the horror movie) vibe with my godlings of player terrorizing...

I guess re:jonah and the whale attacks, maybe movement is restricted based on some combination of logic and grappling? I mean, you should be pretty compressed by guts so swinging a sword isnt a thing thats gonna happen and even if so (because you are Hercules) it would be awkward and weakened by the heavy movement restriction... but like, an eye-laser blast or something would be okiedokie. Does that sound ok?

[eliakon]

This of course begs the question of how naturally invisible races see each other.
I mean if they are all only able to see each other if they get with in 200' of each other...
(though I guess this is what we got for just assuming that everything works exactly like spells, even though there is no text in the book to back that up)

Presumably I guess they all have to spend a few seconds every few minutes to remember to 'turn back on' their eyesight too yes? (since we are going by the claim that it is exactly like the spell right? Or did we change just the parts of the spell that are personally inconvenient to the interpretation?)

[Axelmania]

A lot of creatures wouldn't necessarily need to see each other. Those who do not need to cooperatd. Banshee are naturally invisible and don't appear to be able to see the invisible, for example.

Palladium regularly lists the distance limitations for night vision, they would list them for "see the invisible" too if that was intended to be 200 like the spell or 120 like the psi.

Demon Locusts in PF are notably "nightvision 200ft (61m), see the invisible" now if StI had the same range as the spell why not say "nightvision and see the invisible 200ft (61m)" ?

If it was exactly like a spell for range, I agree the logical next step is to assume duration, and why not PPE cost too? But that isn't the case. If it worked fully like a spell they would just be given that.

Or maybe a psi, like how the Labassu Lost Soul gets see the invisible, instead of a natural ability.

[Eagle]

A lot of creatures wouldn't necessarily need to see each other. Those who do not need to cooperatd. Banshee are naturally invisible and don't appear to be able to see the invisible, for example.

Palladium regularly lists the distance limitations for night vision, they would list them for "see the invisible" too if that was intended to be 200 like the spell or 120 like the psi.

Demon Locusts in PF are notably "nightvision 200ft (61m), see the invisible" now if StI had the same range as the spell why not say "nightvision and see the invisible 200ft (61m)" ?

If it was exactly like a spell for range, I agree the logical next step is to assume duration, and why not PPE cost too? But that isn't the case. If it worked fully like a spell they would just be given that.

Or maybe a psi, like how the Labassu Lost Soul gets see the invisible, instead of a natural ability.

How do you reconcile your position here with this post you make in the Cosmo-Knight thread?

In HU the Sonic Flight power specifies they go from 0 to 700 in 4 seconds. Barring anything else to base it off, that seems fair enough.

Palladium is notorious about not including all the details of a power. You're free to come up with your own details for it, but don't pretend that your way is the only logical one.

[Eagle]

This of course begs the question of how naturally invisible races see each other.
I mean if they are all only able to see each other if they get with in 200' of each other...
(though I guess this is what we got for just assuming that everything works exactly like spells, even though there is no text in the book to back that up)

Presumably I guess they all have to spend a few seconds every few minutes to remember to 'turn back on' their eyesight too yes? (since we are going by the claim that it is exactly like the spell right? Or did we change just the parts of the spell that are personally inconvenient to the interpretation?)

1) They don't have to naturally see each other. Are there any particular examples you can find of two creatures who exist in the same "natural" habitat (i.e., wherever they lived before they came to Rifts Earth), who both have invisibility and see the invisibility, who have a predator/prey type relationship with one another? I can't think of any. If you can find some, please show them to us.

2) You seem to be making the argument that the powers of supernatural beings must work a certain way, otherwise the world's ecology somehow doesn't work properly. I find this argument unconvincing. In the real world, animals who are hunting use active senses all the time. Whales and bats use sonar, spiders sense vibrations in their webs, canines track with their sense of smell. All these require a purposeful act, they aren't just passive abilities. I don't see any problem with requiring some conscious decision to use an additional sense.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Palladium regularly lists the distance limitations for night vision, they would list them for "see the invisible" too if that was intended to be 200 like the spell or 120 like the psi.

Because nightvision is provided from many different sources - technological (optics), magical (spells), innately (as a race, like elves) and supernaturaly (supernatural and creatures of magic). All of those sources provide different ranges.

Seeing the invisible is only granted in two or three ways - psionics, spell, or supernatural/innate magical ability. Since there is precedent that OTHER innate magical abilities function exactly like the spell, why would see the invisible be any different?

Demon Locusts in PF are notably "nightvision 200ft (61m), see the invisible" now if StI had the same range as the spell why not say "nightvision and see the invisible 200ft (61m)" ?

Why do you need to reprint something that is already in print? Why does their "turn invisible at will" power not reprint the entire text of Invisibility: Lesser? Because that's needless and stupid.

If it was exactly like a spell for range, I agree the logical next step is to assume duration, and why not PPE cost too?

Because it says "at will". Sometimes it will say, for some supernatural abilities or spell like powers "x number of times per day". Neither has an attached PPE cost.

[guardiandashi]

I have been playing a bunch of starcraft II lately, and I was thinking that there may be different versions of turn invisible.
however I can see them all being variations of 3 major examples. that you find there.

1 basically always "invisible" its the "default" state for that being they are always invisible and they basically have to "toggle" or concentrate to be visible, or they can be invisible with unlimited duration.

2 energy cost invisibility with a "duration" but can automatically expend the additional energy to remain invisible when already invisible. has an effective duration due to the amount of energy they can channel / store, unless they can regenerate energy while invisible, faster than remaining invisible consumes the energy.

3 fixed duration invisibility possibly with a "cooldown" this is in a lot of ways a not true invisibility at will depending on exact duration of the invisibility, and if the cooldown starts when they turn invisible or when they stop being invisible, think of it like flexing a muscle you have to allow it to relax before you can flex it again even if only for a moment.

with all that said I think of the turn invisible at will as being effectively transparent or light "bending" around your body, or similar. if you use this idea than the camo-variable body is an attempt using technology to duplicate what comes naturally to those with this ability.

it may be a game balance, thing but I think of the See invisible ability as not so much seeing through and thus voiding the natural invisibility ability, but more "noticing" the (typically) subtle clues that something invisible is there. if you go with that interpretation I would tend to use a combination of range bands IE within a certain range spotting the invisible thing is essentially automatic, beyond that range its more of an opposed roll or a "spot / perception" check to notice the "invisible" thing.

[Eagle]

it may be a game balance, thing but I think of the See invisible ability as not so much seeing through and thus voiding the natural invisibility ability, but more "noticing" the (typically) subtle clues that something invisible is there. if you go with that interpretation I would tend to use a combination of range bands IE within a certain range spotting the invisible thing is essentially automatic, beyond that range its more of an opposed roll or a "spot / perception" check to notice the "invisible" thing.

One of the other games I play allows you to determine the "special effect" (or description) of your powers. You are allowed to define your abilities however you choose (within genre limits, anyway).
Once you get used to doing that in a game, it becomes very difficult to go back to a game that doesn't give you that freedom. I could see some high level soldier gaining an ability to "see the invisible", where it is defined as being incredibly perceptive. Think Arnold in the first Predator movie. At first, nobody sees a damn thing (they don't know it's out there, and so don't know to turn on their "see invisibility" power). Then once Arnie figures out how to see the motion in the trees, he has very little trouble detecting the monster. I'd be cool with that.

[eliakon]

This of course begs the question of how naturally invisible races see each other.
I mean if they are all only able to see each other if they get with in 200' of each other...
(though I guess this is what we got for just assuming that everything works exactly like spells, even though there is no text in the book to back that up)

Presumably I guess they all have to spend a few seconds every few minutes to remember to 'turn back on' their eyesight too yes? (since we are going by the claim that it is exactly like the spell right? Or did we change just the parts of the spell that are personally inconvenient to the interpretation?)

1) They don't have to naturally see each other. Are there any particular examples you can find of two creatures who exist in the same "natural" habitat (i.e., wherever they lived before they came to Rifts Earth), who both have invisibility and see the invisibility, who have a predator/prey type relationship with one another? I can't think of any. If you can find some, please show them to us.

2) You seem to be making the argument that the powers of supernatural beings must work a certain way, otherwise the world's ecology somehow doesn't work properly. I find this argument unconvincing. In the real world, animals who are hunting use active senses all the time. Whales and bats use sonar, spiders sense vibrations in their webs, canines track with their sense of smell. All these require a purposeful act, they aren't just passive abilities. I don't see any problem with requiring some conscious decision to use an additional sense.

No I am pointing out that, as an example. Its going to be impossible to reproduce if you can't see the rest of your race

My main point is that a vast array of sight powers are explicitly listed to have a specific range.
When they do NOT have a listed range then it becomes far more likely that the range is "line of sight" like any other vision ability rather than a secretly limited range that is not actually written in any book, but can be intuited by a secret process that requires taking one specific ability and claiming that it is the universal guide to all other powers in the game.
One of these seems a bit more likely than the other. And spoiler alert the one that requires a secret rewriting of the entire game based on one power secretly being the universal standard by which the entire system is measured is not the simplest solution.

[Axelmania]

How do you reconcile your position here with this post you make in the Cosmo-Knight thread?

In HU the Sonic Flight power specifies they go from 0 to 700 in 4 seconds. Barring anything else to base it off, that seems fair enough.

Palladium is notorious about not including all the details of a power. You're free to come up with your own details for it, but don't pretend that your way is the only logical one.

There is nothing to reconcile. There is a difference between filling in unknowns (the time it takes to achieve maximum speed) and adding in limitations where there are none.

Palladium regularly lists the distance limitations for night vision, they would list them for "see the invisible" too if that was intended to be 200 like the spell or 120 like the psi.

Because nightvision is provided from many different sources - technological (optics), magical (spells), innately (as a race, like elves) and supernaturaly (supernatural and creatures of magic). All of those sources provide different ranges.

Seeing the invisible is only granted in two or three ways - psionics, spell, or supernatural/innate magical ability. Since there is precedent that OTHER innate magical abilities function exactly like the spell, why would see the invisible be any different?

Demon Locusts in PF are notably "nightvision 200ft (61m), see the invisible" now if StI had the same range as the spell why not say "nightvision and see the invisible 200ft (61m)" ?

Why do you need to reprint something that is already in print? Why does their "turn invisible at will" power not reprint the entire text of Invisibility: Lesser? Because that's needless and stupid.

See the Invisible is also provided by technology via thermovision in most cases. You also get it with unlimited range using Eyes of the Wolf or an Amulet or by using Astral Projection mag or psi.

I am not talking about reprinting anything. In this case it would be rearranging the existing text to show both night vision and see invisible for locusts was limited to 200 feet. Nothing would need adding.

[Eagle]

How do you reconcile your position here with this post you make in the Cosmo-Knight thread?

In HU the Sonic Flight power specifies they go from 0 to 700 in 4 seconds. Barring anything else to base it off, that seems fair enough.

Palladium is notorious about not including all the details of a power. You're free to come up with your own details for it, but don't pretend that your way is the only logical one.

There is nothing to reconcile. There is a difference between filling in unknowns (the time it takes to achieve maximum speed) and adding in limitations where there are none.

There's no difference at all. Who says it takes any time at all to achieve maximum speed? You're adding limitations to the Cosmo-Knights power beyond what is listed in the book.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

No I am pointing out that, as an example. Its going to be impossible to reproduce if you can't see the rest of your race

lets see that list of naturally always-invisible races that reproduce.

I'll wait.

My main point is that a vast array of sight powers are explicitly listed to have a specific range.

There aren't a vast number of "sight powers" (In Rifts, at least, going into Heroes, there are quite a few that enhance sight). There's... nightvision. That's it. See the invisible as a supernatural/creature of magic ability.

The rest aren't "powers" - they are technological abilities (thermo, low-light, infrared, et al) that aren't replicated natural or supernaturally in races. At all. Nightvision is the only overlap. And it has range limitations based on how it is obtained. See The Invisible is a power that exists in only two places; The Psionic Ability and the Magic Spell. There are other abilities that allow you to see invisible things, but they aren't called out as "See The Invisible".

There is a precedent that non-unique supernatural abilities function like the spell they mimic. There is no reason for this NOT to apply to See The Invisible other than you don't want it to.

When they do NOT have a listed range then it becomes far more likely that the range is "line of sight" like any other vision ability

Other than Nightvision, which would those be, again? Ill wait.

rather than a secretly limited range that is not actually written in any book, but can be intuited by a secret process that requires taking one specific ability and claiming that it is the universal guide to all other powers in the game.

It isn't secret. It's spelled out in plain english.

One of these seems a bit more likely than the other. And spoiler alert the one that requires a secret rewriting of the entire game based on one power secretly being the universal standard by which the entire system is measured is not the simplest solution.

The amount of word-twisting hyperbole and mental gymnastics you go through to try to be right is staggering. It must be exhausting for you.

You dont need to re-write anything. There isn't some giant swathe of creatures with abilities that DONT already mimic spells.

Give it a rest, man. You're going to give yourself an aneurysm.

See the Invisible is also provided by technology via thermovision in most cases.

No, thermo vision allows you to see the heat output of invisible creatures, it does not defeat their invisibility. You still cant see the person. (It also doesn't work against Invisibility: Superior) See The Invisible lets you see them like they are not invisible, even through Superior Invisibility. In fact, the only thing that defeats See The Invisible is Mystic Invisibility.

You also get it with unlimited range using Eyes of the Wolf

Uh... no you don't. Eyes of the Wolf grants you See The Invisible (75% of the time, at least); See The Invisible is a clearly-defined game mechanic with a 200ft range.

or an Amulet

Again, grants See The Invisible. See The Invisible has a range of 200ft.

or by using Astral Projection mag or psi.

It doesn't say that. It says you gain See The Invisible.

It's not rocket surgery people. When a game mechanic already exists, there's no point in making up new ones.

[Eagle]

Was flipping through some books today, and just happened to stumble across something that fits in with this discussion.

Psyscape, page 105. Necrophim and Soul Snakes.

Under the "natural abilities of the soul snake" paragraph, one of the abilities is "turn invisible at will (indefinite)". If they go to the trouble to say that this power last indefinitely, then it stands to reason that the power normally doesn't. That it normally has some time limitation as the default.