Realism of Jericho Holmes survival in Xiticix territory

[Shark_Force]

they had ample opportunity to make it clear that it could apply to larger groups as well. they didn't.

I disagree. They, under the most common usage, indicated that individuals and small groups are most commonly the targets of this kind of reaction.
That makes it pretty clear that there are other targets.
Certainly, they did NOT state in any way that it can NOT happen to larger groups.
And when it comes to Holmes, they showed that it is in fact possible.

the argument that they didn't say it doesn't apply is null, because it is no stronger than the argument that they didn't say it does apply.

They don't have to say that it does apply.
If it doesn't NOT apply, then it is within fair game for them to later apply it.
Again, all I'm arguing at this point is that the rules do NOT forbid in any way the insects' reaction.
IF you agree on that point, we're free to argue about further points.
If you don't agree, then I'd like a good reason why.

how did you figure out what was the most common usage of "in particular" for that sentence? it's one of many definitions, which as far as i can tell was only highlighted by one dictionary, and as i said is a pretty poor definition, considering that it is only one word, and that one word doesn't mean "in particular".

and while i'm fine with the statement that the xiticix book doesn't rule out the possibility entirely, i'm not fine with saying that it suggests that it is a possibility. the book is, at best, neutral on the subject; it doesn't say or imply that the passage applies to larger groups. it doesn't say or imply that it doesn't happen to larger groups. if all you're going for is that it doesn't explicitly make it impossible, that's fine. i can agree with that. but if you're going to keep insisting that it actually explicitly indicates that it is possible with large groups, i'm going to have to disagree.

and again, holmes's march through xiticix territory doesn't show it to apply to large groups, or at least, not in the same way. the army was noted as being in one large mass, making them one group. if the text applied in the same sense, then one bug would have made the challenge, and then they all would have left the army alone. whatever else happened, it certainly wasn't a single bug that attacked and then they were left alone. it might have been something similar. but it certainly wasn't the same thing.

(and it still makes absolutely no sense to leave a food source sitting there just because it doesn't try to escape or fight back)

[Killer Cyborg]

they had ample opportunity to make it clear that it could apply to larger groups as well. they didn't.

I disagree. They, under the most common usage, indicated that individuals and small groups are most commonly the targets of this kind of reaction.
That makes it pretty clear that there are other targets.
Certainly, they did NOT state in any way that it can NOT happen to larger groups.
And when it comes to Holmes, they showed that it is in fact possible.

the argument that they didn't say it doesn't apply is null, because it is no stronger than the argument that they didn't say it does apply.

They don't have to say that it does apply.
If it doesn't NOT apply, then it is within fair game for them to later apply it.
Again, all I'm arguing at this point is that the rules do NOT forbid in any way the insects' reaction.
IF you agree on that point, we're free to argue about further points.
If you don't agree, then I'd like a good reason why.

how did you figure out what was the most common usage of "in particular" for that sentence?

The most common usage of the phrase "in particular" for that sentence is the one time that the phrase was used in that sentence.
The most common usage of the phrase "in particular" in general is:
especially (used to show that a statement applies to one person or thing more than any other).
"he socialized with the other young people, one boy in particular"

I googled it, and that's the first definition that came up. It was pretty easy to find.
I also know that it's the most common usage because that's how the phrase has been consistently used in every context that I can remember, any time that I've encountered it over the span of my life.

it's one of many definitions, which as far as i can tell was only highlighted by one dictionary,

You want more?
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/in--particular
in particular, particularly; specifically; especially:
"There is one book in particular that may help you."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/in+particular
in particular
Particularly; especially: The children enjoyed the zoo; in particular, they liked the monkeys.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/d ... particular
especially
"I liked the last candidate in particular."

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... particular
especially:
"What in particular did you like about the last apartment that we saw?"
"Are you looking for anything in particular?"

That's 5 dictionaries all telling you the same thing so far.
How many more do you need?

and as i said is a pretty poor definition,

I disagree.
But feel free to write and complain to the 5 dictionaries (so far) that gave pretty much the same definition, and let them know how you think they should do their jobs better.

considering that it is only one word, and that one word doesn't mean "in particular".

One word?
Let's do a quick recount.

especially (used to show that a statement applies to one person or thing more than any other).
"he socialized with the other young people, one boy in particular"

I count 28 words in that definition. The key synonym, a contextual explanation of what definition of that synonym applies, and a specific example of how the phrase is used.

and while i'm fine with the statement that the xiticix book doesn't rule out the possibility entirely,

i'm not fine with saying that it suggests that it is a possibility. the book is, at best, neutral on the subject; it doesn't say or imply that the passage applies to larger groups. it doesn't say or imply that it doesn't happen to larger groups.

Well, we know what the phrase "in particular" means according to the dictionaries.
Maybe you think that all the dictionaries are incorrect, but even if all the dictionaries are incorrect, what are the odds that Palladium was using the "correct" definition of the term instead of the "incorrect" definition that all the dictionaries provide?
I'd say the odds are pretty slim.

So, if "individuals and small groups" in particular, as in "especially," as in "more often than other kinds," prone to provoking this behavior from the bugs, that leaves the question hanging of:
"what other other than a) individuals and b) small groups are prone to getting challenged by the bugs this way?"

Got any guesses?

and again, holmes's march through xiticix territory doesn't show it to apply to large groups, or at least, not in the same way.

It might not apply in exactly the same way.
But I'd say that applying in roughly the same way should be enough to quash the idea that the bugs' reaction to Holmes was completely unprecedented and was deus ex machina or rules-breaking.

the army was noted as being in one large mass, making them one group.

Got a direct quote/citation for that?

if the text applied in the same sense, then one bug would have made the challenge,[

One bug would have made the challenge to one individual.
Referring back to the quote that I have posted multiple times (and that you have presumably already read multiple times):
This may, or may not, be a fight to the death, but even if it is, the others will not join the battle unless they too are attacked or other humanoids join the battle. When the one on one battle is done, the others fly away.

Groups may be buzzed, and a group may be challenged, but the descriptions of the battle are of one-on-one combat.
The lone bug attacks a lone humanoid. If other humanoids join in, then the rest of the bugs join in.
Otherwise, the one bug and the one humanoid fight it out themselves.

and then they all would have left the army alone. whatever else happened, it certainly wasn't a single bug that attacked and then they were left alone. it might have been something similar. but it certainly wasn't the same thing.

Pulling from the same page (XI 11):
Thankfully, a group of non-Xiticix is seldom challenged more than once every 10 hours, and the battle is typically one-on-one with everybody else as spectators.

This tells us:
a) More than one challenge can be made per group traveling through the area.
b) Sometimes the groups are challenged more than once every 10 hours.
c) The battle is typically one-on-one combat.

[Killer Cyborg]

Your demanding]

No, I'm not demanding.
I'm asking if you can support your hypothesis. If you can't, that's no biggie. We all have unsupported or unsupportable hypotheses that we like.
It's just that if/when we can support our hypotheses, we're more likely to get other people to either agree with our personal hypotheses, or to at least find them interesting.

numbers not provided we do not know how many people any nation have with a power X or doing task Y.

We can come up with rough numbers of how many people have power x.
I did it with the CS. I could do it with Tolkeen as well, if I had the books and the inclination.
It's not rocket science.
You define which power(s) you're looking at specifically. You look at the population statistics and breakdowns, and see how many people there are that might have the power. Then you figure out the statistical odds of any one of those people who might have it, actually having it. Then you run that against the overall pool of people who might have it.

I'm not asking you to do the impossible.
I'm not asking you to do the really difficult.
I'm not asking you to do anything that I myself have not already done regarding the CS, to a more thorough standard than I'm asking of you.

You have a hypothesis.
Look at the books. Do the math. Test the probability of your hypothesis being correct.

Or don't.

You're perfectly free to say that the books don't have the necessary information for you to know if you're correct, then to take your ball and go home.

I don't particularly care one way or the other, except that I thought your hypothesis was potentially interesting if properly explored.

[Shark_Force]

ugh. i'm gonna try to do the in-quote [color=#800FF]colour[/color] thing. this is way too much of a mess for me to want to format in a bunch of nested quotes properly.

they had ample opportunity to make it clear that it could apply to larger groups as well. they didn't.

I disagree. They, under the most common usage, indicated that individuals and small groups are most commonly the targets of this kind of reaction.
That makes it pretty clear that there are other targets.
Certainly, they did NOT state in any way that it can NOT happen to larger groups.
And when it comes to Holmes, they showed that it is in fact possible.

the argument that they didn't say it doesn't apply is null, because it is no stronger than the argument that they didn't say it does apply.

They don't have to say that it does apply.
If it doesn't NOT apply, then it is within fair game for them to later apply it.
Again, all I'm arguing at this point is that the rules do NOT forbid in any way the insects' reaction.
IF you agree on that point, we're free to argue about further points.
If you don't agree, then I'd like a good reason why.

how did you figure out what was the most common usage of "in particular" for that sentence?

The most common usage of the phrase "in particular" for that sentence is the one time that the phrase was used in that sentence.
The most common usage of the phrase "in particular" in general is:
especially (used to show that a statement applies to one person or thing more than any other).
"he socialized with the other young people, one boy in particular"

ok, sure. that's one. from context, definitely indicates there's more than one young person.

I googled it, and that's the first definition that came up. It was pretty easy to find.
I also know that it's the most common usage because that's how the phrase has been consistently used in every context that I can remember, any time that I've encountered it over the span of my life.

it's one of many definitions, which as far as i can tell was only highlighted by one dictionary,

You want more?
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/in--particular
in particular, particularly; specifically; especially:
"There is one book in particular that may help you."

does not indicate that there are more books that may help you. particularly and specifically simply mean that it is referring to one thing, not necessarily that it is one thing more so than others (although it could be one thing that is amongst others, as the definition does not require the thing to be completely isolated in every way from everything ever).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/in+particular
in particular
Particularly; especially: The children enjoyed the zoo; in particular, they liked the monkeys.

might slightly imply that they liked things other than the monkeys. might also imply that they liked the monkeys, and that was enough to make them like the zoo. again, particularly can simply mean that specific thing, without inherently meaning that there are other things that the statement is intended to apply to. it is not identical in meaning to especially, so the definition of especially is not the only one to consider.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/d ... particular
especially
"I liked the last candidate in particular."

does not tell you that the speaker liked other candidates. merely that they liked the last one.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... particular
especially:
"What in particular did you like about the last apartment that we saw?"
"Are you looking for anything in particular?"

is actually not really a good example for especially. in this case, it's much closer to specifically, seeing as how neither requires multiple things to emphasise one above the others. you can like nothing about the apartment, you could only like one thing about the apartment, you could like some things but not all, and you could even like all the things about the apartment. the second does not imply that there is a set of things that you are not looking for that need to be considered either.

That's 5 dictionaries all telling you the same thing so far.
How many more do you need?

well, so far there's one, and two that could go either way. out of five. so probably better than that.

and as i said is a pretty poor definition,

I disagree.
But feel free to write and complain to the 5 dictionaries (so far) that gave pretty much the same definition, and let them know how you think they should do their jobs better.

considering that it is only one word, and that one word doesn't mean "in particular".

One word?
Let's do a quick recount.

especially (used to show that a statement applies to one person or thing more than any other).
"he socialized with the other young people, one boy in particular"

I count 28 words in that definition. The key synonym, a contextual explanation of what definition of that synonym applies, and a specific example of how the phrase is used.

is not the definition you used, which was originally just "especially". is also still not complete, as it isn't always used in this way, as the examples above show. also, if you exclude the examples, most of those definitions are one word, or two words, which as noted do not in fact share the exact same meaning and thus cannot serve as definitions on their own.

and while i'm fine with the statement that the xiticix book doesn't rule out the possibility entirely,

i'm not fine with saying that it suggests that it is a possibility. the book is, at best, neutral on the subject; it doesn't say or imply that the passage applies to larger groups. it doesn't say or imply that it doesn't happen to larger groups.

Well, we know what the phrase "in particular" means according to the dictionaries.
Maybe you think that all the dictionaries are incorrect, but even if all the dictionaries are incorrect, what are the odds that Palladium was using the "correct" definition of the term instead of the "incorrect" definition that all the dictionaries provide?
I'd say the odds are pretty slim.

So, if "individuals and small groups" in particular, as in "especially," as in "more often than other kinds," prone to provoking this behavior from the bugs, that leaves the question hanging of:
"what other other than a) individuals and b) small groups are prone to getting challenged by the bugs this way?"

or, individuals and small groups specifically or particularly, simply indicating that it is those things and not something else.

Got any guesses?

as i've said, there could just as easily be no other things. "in particular" does not require there to be other things, merely that there are some specific things.

and again, holmes's march through xiticix territory doesn't show it to apply to large groups, or at least, not in the same way.

It might not apply in exactly the same way.
But I'd say that applying in roughly the same way should be enough to quash the idea that the bugs' reaction to Holmes was completely unprecedented and was deus ex machina or rules-breaking.

the army was noted as being in one large mass, making them one group.

Got a direct quote/citation for that?

earlier in the thread. it's late here, i'll see if i can dig it up.

if the text applied in the same sense, then one bug would have made the challenge,[

One bug would have made the challenge to one individual.
Referring back to the quote that I have posted multiple times (and that you have presumably already read multiple times):
This may, or may not, be a fight to the death, but even if it is, the others will not join the battle unless they too are attacked or other humanoids join the battle. When the one on one battle is done, the others fly away.

yup. one bug fights one person, potentially to the death, and then they all fly away. sounds quite a lot unlike the bugs killing tons of people and not flying away to me.

Groups may be buzzed, and a group may be challenged, but the descriptions of the battle are of one-on-one combat.
The lone bug attacks a lone humanoid. If other humanoids join in, then the rest of the bugs join in.
Otherwise, the one bug and the one humanoid fight it out themselves.

and then they all leave. which is not like what happened.

and if even a single other person fights, the rest of the bugs join in, so now we're back to needing every single soldier to just stand there and watch their friends get killed by bugs. not one person snaps. not one person tries to help. i find it highly implausible that the entire army perfectly obeyed these orders while being killed for three days, with the bugs never leaving.

and then they all would have left the army alone. whatever else happened, it certainly wasn't a single bug that attacked and then they were left alone. it might have been something similar. but it certainly wasn't the same thing.

Pulling from the same page (XI 11):
Thankfully, a group of non-Xiticix is seldom challenged more than once every 10 hours, and the battle is typically one-on-one with everybody else as spectators.

This tells us:
a) More than one challenge can be made per group traveling through the area.
b) Sometimes the groups are challenged more than once every 10 hours.
c) The battle is typically one-on-one combat.

and if one guy misinterprets and thinks they're in the challenge but aren't, the whole thing goes to hell. and again, the bugs didn't leave. they're supposed to leave after this challenge. they didn't. they stayed for quite some time.

if you want to argue that it's a possible interpretation, then sure. the wording does not rule out the possibility of it applying to other things.

but it doesn't automatically suggest that it does apply to other things either.

[Killer Cyborg]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/in--particular
in particular, particularly; specifically; especially:
"There is one book in particular that may help you."

does not indicate that there are more books that may help you. particularly and specifically simply mean that it is referring to one thing, not necessarily that it is one thing more so than others (although it could be one thing that is amongst others, as the definition does not require the thing to be completely isolated in every way from everything ever).

I disagree; that is entirely the indication.
Otherwise it would say "there is only one book that may help you," or "there is one book that may help you."
The entire point of "in particular" in that sentence is to indicate that while there are a number of books that might be helpful, there is one book specifically that may be helpful.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/in+particular
in particular
Particularly; especially: The children enjoyed the zoo; in particular, they liked the monkeys.

might slightly imply that they liked things other than the monkeys. might also imply that they liked the monkeys, and that was enough to make them like the zoo. again, particularly can simply mean that specific thing, without inherently meaning that there are other things that the statement is intended to apply to. it is not identical in meaning to especially, so the definition of especially is not the only one to consider.

No. It only makes sense if the phrase is used to show that they liked the monkeys more than they liked the other parts that they liked.
The main part of the sentence is "the children enjoyed the zoo." The part about the monkeys is within that context--it does NOT change the context to the children only liking the monkeys specifically, and not liking the rest of the zoo.
The children liked the zoo. Out of the things in the zoo that they enjoyed, the particularly liked the monkeys.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/in-particular
especially
"I liked the last candidate in particular."

does not tell you that the speaker liked other candidates. merely that they liked the last one.

Yeah, it does. Same as before.
There is no reason for the phrase to exist in the sentence unless it means that there were other candidates that were also liked.
This one isn't explained as well, but it doesn't make sense for the dictionaries to all use the synonym "especially" in different ways for the same definition.
Just like if 5 dictionaries defined "beagle" as "a kind of dog," it wouldn't make any sense to assume that each dictionary (or even any one dictionary) meant the word "dog" in a different way than the other dictionaries.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/particular
especially:
"What in particular did you like about the last apartment that we saw?"
"Are you looking for anything in particular?"

is actually not really a good example for especially. in this case, it's much closer to specifically, seeing as how neither requires multiple things to emphasise one above the others. you can like nothing about the apartment, you could only like one thing about the apartment, you could like some things but not all, and you could even like all the things about the apartment. the second does not imply that there is a set of things that you are not looking for that need to be considered either.

Okay, I actually kind of agree with you on this one, in that those questions are bad examples.

especially (used to show that a statement applies to one person or thing more than any other).
"he socialized with the other young people, one boy in particular"

I count 28 words in that definition. The key synonym, a contextual explanation of what definition of that synonym applies, and a specific example of how the phrase is used.

is not the definition you used, which was originally just "especially". is also still not complete, as it isn't always used in this way, as the examples above show. also, if you exclude the examples, most of those definitions are one word, or two words, which as noted do not in fact share the exact same meaning and thus cannot serve as definitions on their own.[/quote]

It is most commonly used this way.

or, individuals and small groups specifically or particularly, simply indicating that it is those things and not something else.

Nope.
Definitely not in this usage.
Grab your book, take it to an English teacher, and have a good chat about it.
I've put in my time on this one.

Got a direct quote/citation for that?

earlier in the thread. it's late here, i'll see if i can dig it up.

Don't bother. I've learned that "what people say the books said" and "what the books actually say" are often not the same.
That's why I tend to use (and ask for) direct quotes from the books.

yup. one bug fights one person, potentially to the death, and then they all fly away. sounds quite a lot unlike the bugs killing tons of people and not flying away to me.

I guess, if you take "fly away" to always necessarily mean "fly all the way back to the hive."
Even then, the context of the passage is:
such an unwanted intruder may be challenged by one particular Warrior or Hunter while the rest of his squad (and probably scores of other Xiticix) watch from above.

and

If the Warrior wins, he may challenge another member of the group, or fly away (with his squad) triumphant and happy.

"The others fly away" doesn't seem to refer to every xiticix within x number of miles, but merely to the specific Warrior's squad.
And the "fly away" could simply refer to them joining the scores of other Xiticix who are watching from above.

we're back to needing every single soldier to just stand there and watch their friends get killed by bugs. not one person snaps. not one person tries to help. i find it highly implausible that the entire army perfectly obeyed these orders while being killed for three days, with the bugs never leaving.

Find and quote a place where the books actually state that that's what happened. I don't see any point in my trying to defend--or even discuss--an argument that might not even exist.

and if one guy misinterprets and thinks they're in the challenge but aren't, the whole thing goes to hell. and again, the bugs didn't leave. they're supposed to leave after this challenge. they didn't. they stayed for quite some time.

However, if other members of the traveling group join the battle, it will become a free-for-all, with the other Xiticix jumping in to teach the "cheaters" a lesson.

I don't see any reason to believe that "the cheaters" would necessarily include more than the person jumping in my mistake.
There might be more, but if the soldiers continued to not fight back, then the bugs would seem to back off again.
The gist of their description is that they mostly leave you alone if you're not challenging them.

I don't think that one guy in an army of 400k soldiers firing off a shot would get the bugs to see the entire group as a challenge, and even if it did, their challenges often consist of tests rather than slaughtering unresisting people to the last man.

if you want to argue that it's a possible interpretation, then sure. the wording does not rule out the possibility of it applying to other things.

but it doesn't automatically suggest that it does apply to other things either.

It sounds like your position overall is essentially that the books can be reasonably interpreted in such a way that Holmes' journey makes sense, but that you don't choose that interpretation of the books, and that you are unhappy with the result that Holmes' journey doesn't make sense to you.

[Axelmania]

Given that we aren't told what the % distribution is of sensitive/physical/healing the best guide I can see to minimums is the automatic starting abilities of various psionic RCCs and the confirmed numbers we have of them.

It sounds like the Xiticix would only attack the cheating ("GOTTA SAVE MAH BUD") portion of the group, rather than the entire group.

Of course, anyone who tried to save the cheater... they'd be cheaters by proxy, because as soon as you cheat, you're part of the duel too and nobody can interfere.

If the cheater didn't do much damage (maybe 1 MD) and was immediately wrestled to the ground, it's feasible the Xiticix might let it go. Subduing your own cheaters (especially if you killed them, it is feasible that Holmes could order cheaters to be executed for disobeying orders) is probably also a good way to stop the Xiticix from targeting your entire group.

[Blue_Lion]

Your demanding]

No, I'm not demanding.
I'm asking if you can support your hypothesis. If you can't, that's no biggie. We all have unsupported or unsupportable hypotheses that we like.
It's just that if/when we can support our hypotheses, we're more likely to get other people to either agree with our personal hypotheses, or to at least find them interesting.

numbers not provided we do not know how many people any nation have with a power X or doing task Y.

We can come up with rough numbers of how many people have power x.
I did it with the CS. I could do it with Tolkeen as well, if I had the books and the inclination.
It's not rocket science.
You define which power(s) you're looking at specifically. You look at the population statistics and breakdowns, and see how many people there are that might have the power. Then you figure out the statistical odds of any one of those people who might have it, actually having it. Then you run that against the overall pool of people who might have it.

I'm not asking you to do the impossible.
I'm not asking you to do the really difficult.
I'm not asking you to do anything that I myself have not already done regarding the CS, to a more thorough standard than I'm asking of you.

You have a hypothesis.
Look at the books. Do the math. Test the probability of your hypothesis being correct.

Or don't.

You're perfectly free to say that the books don't have the necessary information for you to know if you're correct, then to take your ball and go home.

I don't particularly care one way or the other, except that I thought your hypothesis was potentially interesting if properly explored.

Basically use made up math to fill in undefined numbers.
I find the idea of such a concept flawed and a waste of time.
Getting the real numbers is impossible as we are not given them.
Even your CS numbers are just your best guess and not real numbers.
I have no reason to waist my time, you asked what I found plausible and I told you, I am not debating I am telling you what i think.
If you have a problem with it fine but there is no reason for me to waist my time using made up math to create numbers that are just a guess.

It is impossible to get real numbers.

With TW is possible for half the city to be given access to the spell.
The number that have it is less important than the fact that a nation has access to it and that a large scale sneak attack will have large scale affects and be easy to see.

[Blue_Lion]

Given that we aren't told what the % distribution is of sensitive/physical/healing the best guide I can see to minimums is the automatic starting abilities of various psionic RCCs and the confirmed numbers we have of them.

It sounds like the Xiticix would only attack the cheating ("GOTTA SAVE MAH BUD") portion of the group, rather than the entire group.

Of course, anyone who tried to save the cheater... they'd be cheaters by proxy, because as soon as you cheat, you're part of the duel too and nobody can interfere.

If the cheater didn't do much damage (maybe 1 MD) and was immediately wrestled to the ground, it's feasible the Xiticix might let it go. Subduing your own cheaters (especially if you killed them, it is feasible that Holmes could order cheaters to be executed for disobeying orders) is probably also a good way to stop the Xiticix from targeting your entire group.

If the Xit where just challenging the whole time and not lets destroy the invaders mode that is typical when they swarm.(basically your assumption is for some reason there was never a higher level threat from the bugs then random challenges seams unlikly for them to just do that for months.)

Then you create a hypothetical situation and give the bugs a unlisted control when some one cheats.

[Axelmania]

I didn't give it to them, just said it was feasible. Maybe they would always attack when taking damage, but I could see an SDC rock being thrown by a child as too petty to notice.

When cheating spurs them to attack I think it would only be against the cheater, who basically gets challenged to his own duel as punishment.

Only if multiple cheaters outed out in a shirt span should they interpret it as the entire group being aggressive and cheating.

[Blue_Lion]

I would have to disagree it does not seam feasable and the bugs are not known for use of restraint and limited there targets.

[Killer Cyborg]

Blue, if you want to insist that it's impossible for you to make a decent argument for your own claim, then I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to change your mind.
You say the numbers aren't there. I disagree.
That leaves us at an impasse unless somebody wants to pull out the book and start quoting.

[Killer Cyborg]

With TW is possible for half the city to be given access to the spell.

Not unless you're thinking of a canon TW device.
If you're thinking of a home-brew, then your argument is no more valid than if I were to claim, "but the CS might have a tech invention that interferes with Tolkeen's precognition abilities."
With home-brew inventions, anything is possible. But that doesn't make it a reasonable expectation, and it doesn't affect the canon setting or events.

[Eagle]

The problem with Clairvoyance (and related divination abilities) is that they are cinematically vague. Luke Skywalker has a vision that Han and Leia are at a city in the clouds, and that they're in great danger. One quick Space Google search later, and he's like "oh, Cloud City, duh". Obviously he assumes it's the Empire behind it, but he doesn't know exactly when this is going to happen, what the Empire's plan is, or what to expect.

With Tolkeen, it's no secret that the CS hates them and wants to destroy them. Perhaps divination abilities are what told them when to trigger the Tolkeen Bullcrap Anti-Missile Shield. Some group of psychics suddenly had terrifying visions and they're like "raise the shields NOW!" But in the middle of a war? I don't know that those abilities are going to do much more for you than show you images of death and destruction. Like anytime you use the power and you're concentrating on what the CS forces are doing, I think it's like a movie where in the background you just see the world on fire, and then in the foreground you see CS troops gunning down d-bees, and then superimposed above everything you see Prosek's giant floating head laughing maniacally like he's Mr. Burns. It's far too general a topic for it to give you detailed info on troop movements, or a timeline of when they're going to attack, or anything like that.

Literature and mythology are full of examples of people who misinterpreted prophecies and visions and paid the price as a result. So the idea that Tolkeen might misunderstand what their psychics were seeing is a pretty universal theme. Holmes timed his attack to coincide with a major push by the CS. So your psychics might have all sorts of alarm bells going off, and they're telling their generals that they've sensed a massive Coalition army is approaching, and the general is like "yeah, it's right over there, I can see it. They are shooting at us right now."

At some point, even the most paranoid spellcaster is going to just accept what his eyes see, and go with the simplest explanation. When you mentally command a CS soldier to take off his helmet, and then you shoot him in the face with a MD laser, and you can see all the way through a big hole in his head, do you spend PPE to make sure he's really dead? "I'm going to try and see the future so I can make sure this guy is actually not still alive somehow, because he'd probably be pretty mad that I blew his head off, and if he was still alive he'd probably want revenge..." No, you wouldn't do that. He's dead. Even in a world with borgs, you don't have any reason to think that someone is going to come along and turn this particular guy into Robocop and then send him after you. Everybody thought Holmes' army was annihilated. They didn't even think to look for him, in the same way they weren't looking Douglas MacArthur to reappear. The guy is dead, please focus on the CS troops who are still alive and still trying to murder your family.


Edit: By the way, despite having been in this thread several times and used the guy's name more than once, when I first glanced at the thread title this morning, I read it as "John Holmes survival in Xiticix territory", which conjures a very different image.

[boring7]

Don't forget: Holmes and co. spent several weeks squatting in the forest between the aggressive and expansionistic Xiticix and the At-War and justifiably paranoid Tolkeen. He sent scouts and spies into Tolkeen proper. He was hanging for weeks and somehow no one ever bothered to look north or (in the case of the bugs) go south and buzz his troops for funsies. It's stated that his forces were close enough to be seen by air elementals on patrol (who didn't know what to look for) but somehow no one ever noticed the 6-meter tall (?) tanks and transports just kinda hanging out OR the random people walking out of the forest.

It's not that "oh well they were distracted" or "their military was busy." They should have had people who have been watching that sort of thing for decades just because there are dangerous monsters in the NA wilderness and someone has to keep an eye out for the next Worm of Taut or Xiticix raid. They didn't because...plot armor.

I mean for the real-world comparison I can almost guarantee Kevin was thinking of the Maginot Line. Thing about the Maginot Line and the French collapse is they were in the midst of a self-inflicted social/economic troubles and major military problems. The populace was war-weary and recruitment rates were so bad they couldn't even fully man the line itself, let alone have forces to spare for anything else (like the collapse of Belgium or the defeat of the Ardennes).

Tolkeen had specifically elected a war leader because they were preparing for a fight.

[Freemage]

Don't forget: Holmes and co. spent several weeks squatting in the forest between the aggressive and expansionistic Xiticix and the At-War and justifiably paranoid Tolkeen. He sent scouts and spies into Tolkeen proper. He was hanging for weeks and somehow no one ever bothered to look north or (in the case of the bugs) go south and buzz his troops for funsies. It's stated that his forces were close enough to be seen by air elementals on patrol (who didn't know what to look for) but somehow no one ever noticed the 6-meter tall (?) tanks and transports just kinda hanging out OR the random people walking out of the forest.

It's not that "oh well they were distracted" or "their military was busy." They should have had people who have been watching that sort of thing for decades just because there are dangerous monsters in the NA wilderness and someone has to keep an eye out for the next Worm of Taut or Xiticix raid. They didn't because...plot armor.

I mean for the real-world comparison I can almost guarantee Kevin was thinking of the Maginot Line. Thing about the Maginot Line and the French collapse is they were in the midst of a self-inflicted social/economic troubles and major military problems. The populace was war-weary and recruitment rates were so bad they couldn't even fully man the line itself, let alone have forces to spare for anything else (like the collapse of Belgium or the defeat of the Ardennes).

Tolkeen had specifically elected a war leader because they were preparing for a fight.

Yes, but their forces had been depleted by mercenaries who abandoned their positions (and by other mercenaries who basically turned to minor banditry), and the remaining forces were deliberately moved south and east to where the active threat was.

And everything you said about the Maginot Line actually applies to Tolkeen, too. War-weary population? Yup. Self-inflicted social problems and economic troubles? Not so much self-inflicted, perhaps, but they've been shelling out cash to mercs for months, now, and they have demons running around unchecked. Major military problems? Yup, the CS was still a threat. Poor recruitment rates? As I and others have noted, recruitment rates at this point were essentially negative--between casualties from ongoing battles and the desertion by the mercenaries, the army was waking up a little smaller each day.

[Ed]

The biggest problem with the Holmes maneuver is that it's logistically impossible. 400,000 troops would need something like 3 million gallons of potable water to last the first week. If the bugs wrecked 20% of the water trucks, casualties would have been two to three times as high.

[Freemage]

The biggest problem with the Holmes maneuver is that it's logistically impossible. 400,000 troops would need something like 3 million gallons of potable water to last the first week. If the bugs wrecked 20% of the water trucks, casualties would have been two to three times as high.

Water supplies would not be as big a problem as you think, so long as they had some filtration available; Minnesota's logo is "Land of 10,000 Lakes". Finding freshwater is trivially easy.

[SereneTsunami]

The biggest problem with the Holmes maneuver is that it's logistically impossible. 400,000 troops would need something like 3 million gallons of potable water to last the first week. If the bugs wrecked 20% of the water trucks, casualties would have been two to three times as high.

Water supplies would not be as big a problem as you think, so long as they had some filtration available; Minnesota's logo is "Land of 10,000 Lakes". Finding freshwater is trivially easy.

I do think it would be very difficult logistically, but not impossible. Technology available to the CS troopers would make food very portable, and very durable. Water could be managed. I'm not saying it would be anything but horrible to live though those conditions, but it is possible.

Holmes troops surviving is a miracle, no doubt.

Is Tolkeen the only nation that gets to have incredible heroic achievements in this war?

[Blue_Lion]

With TW is possible for half the city to be given access to the spell.

Not unless you're thinking of a canon TW device.
If you're thinking of a home-brew, then your argument is no more valid than if I were to claim, "but the CS might have a tech invention that interferes with Tolkeen's precognition abilities."
With home-brew inventions, anything is possible. But that doesn't make it a reasonable expectation, and it doesn't affect the canon setting or events.

So you are saying it is not canon for TW to build devices that can cast spells?

[Killer Cyborg]

With TW is possible for half the city to be given access to the spell.

Not unless you're thinking of a canon TW device.
If you're thinking of a home-brew, then your argument is no more valid than if I were to claim, "but the CS might have a tech invention that interferes with Tolkeen's precognition abilities."
With home-brew inventions, anything is possible. But that doesn't make it a reasonable expectation, and it doesn't affect the canon setting or events.

So you are saying it is not canon for TW to build devices that can cast spells?

"I've built a TW device that can cast a spell" and "it is possible for half the city to be given access to the spell" aren't the same thing, unless you're thinking that simple TW devices that cast Oracle would--although never mentioned in canon AFAIK--be such a popular device that half the city would have them.
From what you were saying, it seemed more that you were picturing a single device or a handful of devices, the kind of thing that would have to be home-brewed.

Regardless, even building a simple TW gizmo that can cast Oracle is possible according to canon, but not guaranteed.

RUE 130
Note: Players do NOT choose the exact final effects of a TW device; they only tell a Game Master what they wish the device to do. It is always the Game Master's call as to EXACTLY how something turns out. It may be more or less powerful than the player originally thought it should be, but the player and GM can work together to improve the design.

So whether or not it's possible to build a simple TW device that casts Oracle, and the ultimate results of attempting to build such a device are in the hands of each individual GM.
Unless such a device is statted out in canon somewhere.
Otherwise, all that canon gives us on the subject is that it is possible for players to attempt to make such a device, and it's possible for GMs to approve, deny, or modify such a devise.

[Nekira Sudacne]

In cannon, Tolkeen relied on Poor Yorik, the magical talking skull that provided prophisies in far greater accuracy than the oracle spell, provided one could decipher them. after all, it successfully predicted every single major CS offensive, so why bother mass producing oracle? it even prophesied Jericho's survival and surprise raid at the end, they just didn't figure it out in time.

[boring7]

And everything you said about the Maginot Line actually applies to Tolkeen, too. War-weary population? Yup. Self-inflicted social problems and economic troubles? Not so much self-inflicted, perhaps, but they've been shelling out cash to mercs for months, now, and they have demons running around unchecked. Major military problems? Yup, the CS was still a threat. Poor recruitment rates? As I and others have noted, recruitment rates at this point were essentially negative--between casualties from ongoing battles and the desertion by the mercenaries, the army was waking up a little smaller each day.

Not really. The French situation was like that BEFORE the war had begun, getting worse as they took losses. Tolkeen started with very good recruitment (again, they picked a war-hawk leader and were ready to fight) The French populace was basically saying, "screw this war business, we're going to hide behind our shield and let the rest of the powers fight it out." Another thing is that The French army was outflanked by Belgium and the Ardennes maneuvers not just because they couldn't imagine it happening but because they couldn't imagine it happening so FAST. Jericho squatted in "impassible" terrain for months, the Nazis plowed through in 3 days. Tolkeen just didn't notice an enemy on their doorstep forever and didn't react even though they could have because reasons and such as.

To properly copy the situation, the defense grid should have been up permanently, Tolkeen would have been hiding under their siege shield indefinitely, and the CS would have had to break it down through an unexpected (yet obvious in hindsight) exploit. Oddly enough there's even an easy, canonical, and amusingly evil way to do it.

Some CS hypocrite (they're evil so there's a lot of them) makes a literal deal with a devil (plenty of demon lords willing to screw over Tolkeen for pay and/or the lulz) selling a bunch of prisoners for a secret: that if you throw enough blood sacrifice PPE into the ley-line it will overload and bork the shield. So the CS plants its siege against the wall, they round up everything magic and every d-bee they can find, start executing them by firing squad right up against the shield, and events proceed as written.

[boring7]

In cannon, Tolkeen relied on Poor Yorik, the magical talking skull that provided prophisies in far greater accuracy than the oracle spell, provided one could decipher them. after all, it successfully predicted every single major CS offensive, so why bother mass producing oracle? it even prophesied Jericho's survival and surprise raid at the end, they just didn't figure it out in time.

Because the best way to "correctly decipher" vague prophecy is to have enough information, and you get information by keeping things well-scouted, INCLUDING your northern border.

edit: I wouldn't say ORACLE is the best spell for that, but I'm just going to assume there are enough remote-viewing options (or even flying camera drones) floating around the Rifts books that they should have had scouting options that could patrol far and wide. According to the book, Jericho was likely spotted by some of the air elementals flying air superiority patrol (they didn't say anything because it wasn't their job) but Tolkeen just CONVENIENTLY didn't bother to have even one unit doing a similar job on the ground.

Again, it's not that it's necessarily impossible, it's just improbable to the point of "unreal" and "annoying."

[Astral_Explorer]

A simple, "Hey can someone Astrally project out that way and see if our strategy worked ?"
Heck why didn't some cruel voyeur among the Tolkeen forces just astrally pop out that way just to see the Coalition forces in Xiticix territory devastated ?

[eliakon]

In cannon, Tolkeen relied on Poor Yorik, the magical talking skull that provided prophisies in far greater accuracy than the oracle spell, provided one could decipher them. after all, it successfully predicted every single major CS offensive, so why bother mass producing oracle? it even prophesied Jericho's survival and surprise raid at the end, they just didn't figure it out in time.

Because the best way to "correctly decipher" vague prophecy is to have enough information, and you get information by keeping things well-scouted, INCLUDING your northern border.

edit: I wouldn't say ORACLE is the best spell for that, but I'm just going to assume there are enough remote-viewing options (or even flying camera drones) floating around the Rifts books that they should have had scouting options that could patrol far and wide. According to the book, Jericho was likely spotted by some of the air elementals flying air superiority patrol (they didn't say anything because it wasn't their job) but Tolkeen just CONVENIENTLY didn't bother to have even one unit doing a similar job on the ground.

Again, it's not that it's necessarily impossible, it's just improbable to the point of "unreal" and "annoying."

Its beyond "Unreal"
The idea that a professional military would NOT have scouts and recon on its own border, during war time is just absurd.
ESPECIALLY a hostile border that they share with a force that may at any time attack them!

[Jefffar]

But they did have scouts reconinng the border area.

The problem was they chose to send Air Elementals (who are both fast and stealthy) and asked them to keep an eye on the Xiticix.

All Elementals are excessively literal. The Elementals saw the Coalition troops, but did not report their presence because they were only asked about the Xiticix.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

A simple, "Hey can someone Astrally project out that way and see if our strategy worked ?"
Heck why didn't some cruel voyeur among the Tolkeen forces just astrally pop out that way just to see the Coalition forces in Xiticix territory devastated ?

Remember a number of the tolkeen defenders lefted after the sorcerers revenge.
Who to say the ones who did see it ,knew that the coalition was not defeated just their nose was bloody, and this they were coming back with a full force, so best to just collect your payment and just leave town before the coalition showed back up looking for their pound of flesh.

[Nekira Sudacne]

In cannon, Tolkeen relied on Poor Yorik, the magical talking skull that provided prophisies in far greater accuracy than the oracle spell, provided one could decipher them. after all, it successfully predicted every single major CS offensive, so why bother mass producing oracle? it even prophesied Jericho's survival and surprise raid at the end, they just didn't figure it out in time.

Because the best way to "correctly decipher" vague prophecy is to have enough information, and you get information by keeping things well-scouted, INCLUDING your northern border.

edit: I wouldn't say ORACLE is the best spell for that, but I'm just going to assume there are enough remote-viewing options (or even flying camera drones) floating around the Rifts books that they should have had scouting options that could patrol far and wide. According to the book, Jericho was likely spotted by some of the air elementals flying air superiority patrol (they didn't say anything because it wasn't their job) but Tolkeen just CONVENIENTLY didn't bother to have even one unit doing a similar job on the ground.

Again, it's not that it's necessarily impossible, it's just improbable to the point of "unreal" and "annoying."

I didn't say they used it wisely. Both sides made some phenominally stupid decisions, not just the CS. because that part of the war is actually realistic. You'd be amazed at how many wars get lost because one side pulled some pants on head shenanigans, or when one side won because they only had the second-to-last stupid moment of the war.

[Axelmania]

A simple, "Hey can someone Astrally project out that way and see if our strategy worked ?"
Heck why didn't some cruel voyeur among the Tolkeen forces just astrally pop out that way just to see the Coalition forces in Xiticix territory devastated ?

Pre-RUE: Xiticix super Warriors could hurt you with electrokinesis.

Post-RUE: they will 1 hit kill you.with it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A simple, "Hey can someone Astrally project out that way and see if our strategy worked ?"
Heck why didn't some cruel voyeur among the Tolkeen forces just astrally pop out that way just to see the Coalition forces in Xiticix territory devastated ?

They were busy fighting the largest land battle in north america's history on a guess.

[Ed]

In cannon, Tolkeen relied on Poor Yorik, the magical talking skull that provided prophisies in far greater accuracy than the oracle spell, provided one could decipher them. after all, it successfully predicted every single major CS offensive, so why bother mass producing oracle? it even prophesied Jericho's survival and surprise raid at the end, they just didn't figure it out in time.

Because the best way to "correctly decipher" vague prophecy is to have enough information, and you get information by keeping things well-scouted, INCLUDING your northern border.

edit: I wouldn't say ORACLE is the best spell for that, but I'm just going to assume there are enough remote-viewing options (or even flying camera drones) floating around the Rifts books that they should have had scouting options that could patrol far and wide. According to the book, Jericho was likely spotted by some of the air elementals flying air superiority patrol (they didn't say anything because it wasn't their job) but Tolkeen just CONVENIENTLY didn't bother to have even one unit doing a similar job on the ground.

Again, it's not that it's necessarily impossible, it's just improbable to the point of "unreal" and "annoying."

Its beyond "Unreal"
The idea that a professional military would NOT have scouts and recon on its own border, during war time is just absurd.
ESPECIALLY a hostile border that they share with a force that may at any time attack them!

You said it. Tolkeen did not have a professional military. It had, at best, a collection of talented amateurs cobbled together trying to act like a professional military.

[Ed]

The biggest problem with the Holmes maneuver is that it's logistically impossible. 400,000 troops would need something like 3 million gallons of potable water to last the first week. If the bugs wrecked 20% of the water trucks, casualties would have been two to three times as high.

Water supplies would not be as big a problem as you think, so long as they had some filtration available; Minnesota's logo is "Land of 10,000 Lakes". Finding freshwater is trivially easy.

By canon, Holmes troops bugged out in the middle of a rout and moved under constant assault for over a week before the swarm dissipated. Even if they had planned to bring filtration equipment, no way they could unrep under those conditions.

[eliakon]

In cannon, Tolkeen relied on Poor Yorik, the magical talking skull that provided prophisies in far greater accuracy than the oracle spell, provided one could decipher them. after all, it successfully predicted every single major CS offensive, so why bother mass producing oracle? it even prophesied Jericho's survival and surprise raid at the end, they just didn't figure it out in time.

Because the best way to "correctly decipher" vague prophecy is to have enough information, and you get information by keeping things well-scouted, INCLUDING your northern border.

edit: I wouldn't say ORACLE is the best spell for that, but I'm just going to assume there are enough remote-viewing options (or even flying camera drones) floating around the Rifts books that they should have had scouting options that could patrol far and wide. According to the book, Jericho was likely spotted by some of the air elementals flying air superiority patrol (they didn't say anything because it wasn't their job) but Tolkeen just CONVENIENTLY didn't bother to have even one unit doing a similar job on the ground.

Again, it's not that it's necessarily impossible, it's just improbable to the point of "unreal" and "annoying."

Its beyond "Unreal"
The idea that a professional military would NOT have scouts and recon on its own border, during war time is just absurd.
ESPECIALLY a hostile border that they share with a force that may at any time attack them!

You said it. Tolkeen did not have a professional military. It had, at best, a collection of talented amateurs cobbled together trying to act like a professional military.

Um no
They had a professional Military.
I'm sorry I know that a lot of people want to pretend that the CS is the only professionals on the planet...
...but the books go to some pains to point out that Tolkeen had a fully functioning centralized military with chains of command and units and everything.
Of course that's no fun to play in games so people always want to be one of the mercenaries they hired on in addition to the army to swell the ranks

[Axelmania]

Q: if Holmes had any psi-nullifiers on-board, would the automatic ISP spent against magic be triggered by TW weapon attacks and possibly nullify a TK blast?

[eliakon]

Q: if Holmes had any psi-nullifiers on-board, would the automatic ISP spent against magic be triggered by TW weapon attacks and possibly nullify a TK blast?

No

First off there is the issue of their range. The automatic power range is 10' and only works to defend them. The 'can defend others' power has a 100' range plus 10' per level but requires that you see the target and know that it is about to unleash the power...

...which brings us to the second problem. They nullify spells and the use of psionic powers. It is vaguely possible that a GM could rule that they can nullify the activation of a TW device, but that is not a canonical function of their power.

[glitterboy2098]

it is also worth noting that the TK guns of the xiticix have always been treated as different from normal TW weapons. so even if they can negate a normal TW weapon, that may not mean anything for xiticix weapons.

(for one, they do not use gems or PPE reservoirs like normal TW weapons)

[Ed]

In cannon, Tolkeen relied on Poor Yorik, the magical talking skull that provided prophisies in far greater accuracy than the oracle spell, provided one could decipher them. after all, it successfully predicted every single major CS offensive, so why bother mass producing oracle? it even prophesied Jericho's survival and surprise raid at the end, they just didn't figure it out in time.

Because the best way to "correctly decipher" vague prophecy is to have enough information, and you get information by keeping things well-scouted, INCLUDING your northern border.

edit: I wouldn't say ORACLE is the best spell for that, but I'm just going to assume there are enough remote-viewing options (or even flying camera drones) floating around the Rifts books that they should have had scouting options that could patrol far and wide. According to the book, Jericho was likely spotted by some of the air elementals flying air superiority patrol (they didn't say anything because it wasn't their job) but Tolkeen just CONVENIENTLY didn't bother to have even one unit doing a similar job on the ground.

Again, it's not that it's necessarily impossible, it's just improbable to the point of "unreal" and "annoying."

Its beyond "Unreal"
The idea that a professional military would NOT have scouts and recon on its own border, during war time is just absurd.
ESPECIALLY a hostile border that they share with a force that may at any time attack them!

You said it. Tolkeen did not have a professional military. It had, at best, a collection of talented amateurs cobbled together trying to act like a professional military.

Um no
They had a professional Military.
I'm sorry I know that a lot of people want to pretend that the CS is the only professionals on the planet...
...but the books go to some pains to point out that Tolkeen had a fully functioning centralized military with chains of command and units and everything.
Of course that's no fun to play in games so people always want to be one of the mercenaries they hired on in addition to the army to swell the ranks

Um no. Read SoT 1 and 6. The Tolkeen military was a collection of sub company sized units grafted onto supernatural elements held together under the personal command authority of various warlords. There was no professional military organization at the brigade level and next to none at the division level. They may have held military titles and had (multiple) chains of command on paper, but Tolkeen was a collection of warriors fighting their private wars their own private way.

[Axelmania]

it is also worth noting that the TK guns of the xiticix have always been treated as different from normal TW weapons. so even if they can negate a normal TW weapon, that may not mean anything for xiticix weapons.

(for one, they do not use gems or PPE reservoirs like normal TW weapons)

PPE is used to reload it, I don't see how that isn't a PPE reservoir.

Does it explicitly say somewhere they don't use gems?

[Greepnak]

In my canonization the Xiticix followed and swarmed both the CS and Tolkeen forces under weight of billions. Jericho survives and is still lauded as a hero, but he blames himself for unleashing the enemy on both sides that both sides SHOULD have been fighting together all along. (this plays well into the CS liberalization aspects of minion war, and I have Joseph Prosek kind of working like a Lelouche of the Rebellion figure uniting people under the big War Empire but also subtly encouraging dissent leading to open rebellion which he will "graciously" acquiesce to... decades from now, because if you consider Rifts earth is basically medieval ditch farmers with plasma weapons, the idea that using the human tendency to unite with far greater vigor in the name of war than they ever will in the name of peace is something someone smart and political can use. Like John Adams said. "I must study war and politics so my son can study science and engineering. He must study these so that his son may study art")

[Freemage]

On Greepnak's point:

If you're dissatisfied with the official storyline, but want to hew as close as possible to canon in your campaign, here's the points your personal canon should include:

1: Tolkeen gets wiped out, brutally. You can attribute this to CS military luck/brilliance, or betrayal by their demonic allies, or a freak accident in the TW factories. Hell, make it the result of third-party meddling (ARCHIE or the Spulgroth could both fill that role).

2: Holmes survives and is lauded as a hero. I can't see the future books not continuing to build on his storyline. However, it's perfectly possible that what's in the books is the "official" version of events, and that the truth is messier. Maybe he used techniques disallowed by the CS high command (magic, or even some sort of D-bee ally) to dissuade the Xitixic; maybe he used his division's psychic operatives to deal with the troops' shell-shock in a brutal and long-term unhealthy way (and so now those troops are starting to crack as the artificial bulwark begins to erode without constant upkeep); maybe his forces even fled through a Rift almost as soon as the Zerg--I mean, Xitixic--swarmed, leaving 25% of his troops behind in the process--he just got really lucky managing to return just north of the capital a couple months later. Hell maybe the CS actually DID use a 'clean' nuke on the city of Tolkeen, and when Holmes' troops showed up shortly thereafter, High Command informed him that he'd be given (and expected to take) credit for the victory, with the half-baked story about surviving the Xitixic territory for weeks being used to give cover.

3: The CS and Free Quebec are on speaking terms again, though it's unclear how friendly they are.

4: The Cyber-Knights have been sundered as an organization, with a vast swath of Fallen Knights out there, making all kinds of trouble. Coake is trying to rebuild.

5: CS Minnesota is now a thing, but it's pretty much ripped to hell and will take a long time to actually become remotely productive territory again; guerilla activity is likely as time goes on.

[HWalsh]

On Greepnak's point:

If you're dissatisfied with the official storyline, but want to hew as close as possible to canon in your campaign, here's the points your personal canon should include:

1: Tolkeen gets wiped out, brutally. You can attribute this to CS military luck/brilliance, or betrayal by their demonic allies, or a freak accident in the TW factories. Hell, make it the result of third-party meddling (ARCHIE or the Spulgroth could both fill that role).

2: Holmes survives and is lauded as a hero. I can't see the future books not continuing to build on his storyline. However, it's perfectly possible that what's in the books is the "official" version of events, and that the truth is messier. Maybe he used techniques disallowed by the CS high command (magic, or even some sort of D-bee ally) to dissuade the Xitixic; maybe he used his division's psychic operatives to deal with the troops' shell-shock in a brutal and long-term unhealthy way (and so now those troops are starting to crack as the artificial bulwark begins to erode without constant upkeep); maybe his forces even fled through a Rift almost as soon as the Zerg--I mean, Xitixic--swarmed, leaving 25% of his troops behind in the process--he just got really lucky managing to return just north of the capital a couple months later. Hell maybe the CS actually DID use a 'clean' nuke on the city of Tolkeen, and when Holmes' troops showed up shortly thereafter, High Command informed him that he'd be given (and expected to take) credit for the victory, with the half-baked story about surviving the Xitixic territory for weeks being used to give cover.

3: The CS and Free Quebec are on speaking terms again, though it's unclear how friendly they are.

4: The Cyber-Knights have been sundered as an organization, with a vast swath of Fallen Knights out there, making all kinds of trouble. Coake is trying to rebuild.

5: CS Minnesota is now a thing, but it's pretty much ripped to hell and will take a long time to actually become remotely productive territory again; guerilla activity is likely as time goes on.

Remember. Coake and the Cyber-Knight Order reform in the minion war more powerful and united than ever before.

[Freemage]

On Greepnak's point:

If you're dissatisfied with the official storyline, but want to hew as close as possible to canon in your campaign, here's the points your personal canon should include:

1: Tolkeen gets wiped out, brutally. You can attribute this to CS military luck/brilliance, or betrayal by their demonic allies, or a freak accident in the TW factories. Hell, make it the result of third-party meddling (ARCHIE or the Spulgroth could both fill that role).

2: Holmes survives and is lauded as a hero. I can't see the future books not continuing to build on his storyline. However, it's perfectly possible that what's in the books is the "official" version of events, and that the truth is messier. Maybe he used techniques disallowed by the CS high command (magic, or even some sort of D-bee ally) to dissuade the Xitixic; maybe he used his division's psychic operatives to deal with the troops' shell-shock in a brutal and long-term unhealthy way (and so now those troops are starting to crack as the artificial bulwark begins to erode without constant upkeep); maybe his forces even fled through a Rift almost as soon as the Zerg--I mean, Xitixic--swarmed, leaving 25% of his troops behind in the process--he just got really lucky managing to return just north of the capital a couple months later. Hell maybe the CS actually DID use a 'clean' nuke on the city of Tolkeen, and when Holmes' troops showed up shortly thereafter, High Command informed him that he'd be given (and expected to take) credit for the victory, with the half-baked story about surviving the Xitixic territory for weeks being used to give cover.

3: The CS and Free Quebec are on speaking terms again, though it's unclear how friendly they are.

4: The Cyber-Knights have been sundered as an organization, with a vast swath of Fallen Knights out there, making all kinds of trouble. Coake is trying to rebuild.

5: CS Minnesota is now a thing, but it's pretty much ripped to hell and will take a long time to actually become remotely productive territory again; guerilla activity is likely as time goes on.

Remember. Coake and the Cyber-Knight Order reform in the minion war more powerful and united than ever before.

Ah, have not read Minion War, yet. So noted.

[Blue_Lion]

Blue, if you want to insist that it's impossible for you to make a decent argument for your own claim, then I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to change your mind.
You say the numbers aren't there. I disagree.
That leaves us at an impasse unless somebody wants to pull out the book and start quoting.

The numbers are not there at all.

Lets take your claim that CS has X people with a psi power.
You claim you statistics to come up with it, but you really used made up math.(Statistics require for this would require that two variables be known, but we only know 1.)

We do not know how common it is for people with access to psi to have that power, you assumed that %X had it based on the number of powers but that may not be correct.

The books do not tell us what % of mages are trained in most spells.
The books do not tell us what % of most psi have a certain power.

Your claim of CS having X is based off math you made up not a number from the book. Sp it is just a number you think they should have not a number the books say they have.

Asking to prove the unprovable is impossible.

Your CS numbers are unprovable because we do not have the varibles we need in print.
(If you have a book quote that says the frequency of the power coming up please present it. but as I said when it comes to the number of people that have the power it is impossible to prove.)

Your obsession with trying to prove a certain number is creating an unprovable standard. And not needed to determine if something is feasible. You only need to know if A they had access to it and B if it is feasable they would use it that way. (As with mages it is something they can train and they had trained many mages in a spell of legend to make the city MDC and regenerate it is feasible tolkeen intelligence would train sufficient mages to detect any large scale attack.) The scale of the attack makes its detection more likely to such powers. It is the size of the attack that matters not the number of people with the power.

As I said this is what I think, you are the one trying to make it a claim.

[boring7]

On Greepnak's point:

If you're dissatisfied with the official storyline, but want to hew as close as possible to canon in your campaign, here's the points your personal canon should include:

1: Tolkeen gets wiped out, brutally. You can attribute this to CS military luck/brilliance, or betrayal by their demonic allies, or a freak accident in the TW factories. Hell, make it the result of third-party meddling (ARCHIE or the Spulgroth could both fill that role).

2: Holmes survives and is lauded as a hero. I can't see the future books not continuing to build on his storyline. However, it's perfectly possible that what's in the books is the "official" version of events, and that the truth is messier. Maybe he used techniques disallowed by the CS high command (magic, or even some sort of D-bee ally) to dissuade the Xitixic; maybe he used his division's psychic operatives to deal with the troops' shell-shock in a brutal and long-term unhealthy way (and so now those troops are starting to crack as the artificial bulwark begins to erode without constant upkeep); maybe his forces even fled through a Rift almost as soon as the Zerg--I mean, Xitixic--swarmed, leaving 25% of his troops behind in the process--he just got really lucky managing to return just north of the capital a couple months later. Hell maybe the CS actually DID use a 'clean' nuke on the city of Tolkeen, and when Holmes' troops showed up shortly thereafter, High Command informed him that he'd be given (and expected to take) credit for the victory, with the half-baked story about surviving the Xitixic territory for weeks being used to give cover.

3: The CS and Free Quebec are on speaking terms again, though it's unclear how friendly they are.

4: The Cyber-Knights have been sundered as an organization, with a vast swath of Fallen Knights out there, making all kinds of trouble. Coake is trying to rebuild.

5: CS Minnesota is now a thing, but it's pretty much ripped to hell and will take a long time to actually become remotely productive territory again; guerilla activity is likely as time goes on.

Yeah, all of this.

That, and the CS is still the Illinois Nazis.

[Axelmania]

When it comes to Clairvoyance statistics, I can't draw any conclusions for those who have to choose the power, for whom it isn't mandatory, since I wouldn't know the frequency. For those who do necessarily get it though...

Psyscape Pg 62 it is a starting power of the Psi-Druid
Psyscape pg 79 all 7th level Psi-Warriors will have it
Lone Star pg 99 all Psi-Sensitive (12%) and Intuitive (12%) and Spiritualist (12%) Psi-X Aliens will have it (total 36%, not including the 3% who are Mind Melters and would have optional access to it)

Psi-Druids would be the CS' primary guaranteed access to the power. We don't even know if the Coalition Psi-Warriors from Alpha Battalion are still around, much less if they're a high enough level to get it, and Bradford is hiding the Psi-X Aliens from the CS since his experiments are illegal.

Of course you don't really need guaranteed access. The biggest source is probably the massive amount of psi-stalkers and psi-hounds. The majority of both start with a sizeable amount of sensitive abilities.

The problem there though is we just don't know the % distribution of power selections. It isn't necessarily going to be balanced. It could be 50% 6th sense to 1% clairvoyance for all I know.

[Killer Cyborg]

Blue, if you want to insist that it's impossible for you to make a decent argument for your own claim, then I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to change your mind.
You say the numbers aren't there. I disagree.
That leaves us at an impasse unless somebody wants to pull out the book and start quoting.

The numbers are not there at all.

Again, I disagree, but if you want to claim that the numbers to support your view simply don't exist, then I'm not going to keep arguing about it.

As I said this is what I think, you are the one trying to make it a claim.

"They had the ability to check what the CS would do and see the attack coming" is a claim.
If you think that it's an unsupportable claim, then okay. I'll take you at your word.

[Blue_Lion]

Blue, if you want to insist that it's impossible for you to make a decent argument for your own claim, then I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to change your mind.
You say the numbers aren't there. I disagree.
That leaves us at an impasse unless somebody wants to pull out the book and start quoting.

The numbers are not there at all.

Again, I disagree, but if you want to claim that the numbers to support your view simply don't exist, then I'm not going to keep arguing about it.

As I said this is what I think, you are the one trying to make it a claim.

"They had the ability to check what the CS would do and see the attack coming" is a claim.
If you think that it's an unsupportable claim, then okay. I'll take you at your word.

Prove the numbers exist for any one what book list the number of people with a power, or the % of a population with a power to see the future in the CS. ( I want to see your math with citing the sources of said numbers.)

You say the numbers are there show where the numbers exist in the books.

(You keep claiming numbers exist and demand that I use numbers that have not been proven to exist. Show me how the numbers exist if you want to claim they do.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Blue, if you want to insist that it's impossible for you to make a decent argument for your own claim, then I'm not going to beat my head against the wall trying to change your mind.
You say the numbers aren't there. I disagree.
That leaves us at an impasse unless somebody wants to pull out the book and start quoting.

The numbers are not there at all.

Again, I disagree, but if you want to claim that the numbers to support your view simply don't exist, then I'm not going to keep arguing about it.

As I said this is what I think, you are the one trying to make it a claim.

"They had the ability to check what the CS would do and see the attack coming" is a claim.
If you think that it's an unsupportable claim, then okay. I'll take you at your word.

Prove the numbers exist for any one what book list the number of people with a power, or the % of a population with a power to see the future in the CS.

That's not really a proper sentence, and I don't know what it is intended to mean.

( I want to see your math with citing the sources of said numbers.)

You say the numbers are there show where the numbers exist in the books.

(You keep claiming numbers exist and demand that I use numbers that have not been proven to exist. Show me how the numbers exist if you want to claim they do.)

It is a fact that numbers exist. There are all kinds of numbers.
Is there a specific number that officially represents the exact number of Clairvoyants in a specific area?
Probably not.
But there are numbers that do exist, which we can work with to reach conclusions.

If, for example, the total number of mages in Tolkeen is X, and the total number of psychics is Y, then that tells us that the number of Clairvoyants in Tolkeen can NOT be larger than X + Y.
This is simple logic.
So that's a number that we could come up with, possibly.
Does it tell us everything that we wish to know?

Potentially, depending on what we wish to know.

But you insist that there no numbers exist for Tolkeen that could possibly support your claim, and I've long since grown tired of arguing about that point.
So, sure.
Numbers don't exist, if that's what you insist.

If you want the numbers for the CS' psychics that I came up with, the math I did and the conclusions that I came to, all you have to do is to search through my previous posts on this subject in previous topics, either using Palladium's search function, or using Google or whatever search engine you prefer.

But since you've done nothing to assist me in supporting your own claim, I don't see why I should do the legwork to help you attempt to disprove my own claim.

So, good day, and have fun.
I don't see any use in continuing the conversation.

[cornholioprime]

The entire survival thing is a complete plot armored ^$# grab.
The Xiticix book goes to pains to tell how suicidaly hard it is to move in bug territory with out being constantly attacked, and how it takes special skills and training and supplies to sneak around. it goes on at length about how the bugs attack everything they see and how they react to vehicles and on and on...
And then all of that is thrown out the window when it is convenient to allow Holmes to make an amazing miracle attack from total surprise.
Because... as far as I can see, the authors had painted themselves into a corner and need some deus ex machine to kill of Tolkeen.

What he said.

Xits go batcrap crazy if A SMALL HERD OF COWS walks into their territory and doesn't take the hint to get out.

Some years ago, now, Killer Cyborg went piecemeal into the raw damage the amassed Xits would deal to Holmes' formation, and it wasn't even close. Holmes's army would have essentially needed the combined MDC of the Artifact to escape at all.

Then, to add insult to injury, they throw in the entirely unrealistic scenario of "soldiers get literally chewed, stomped on, and rent limb from limb without ANY of them fighting back, and nobody kills even a single Xit by accident or in the death throes of a hideous death or has one grenade or stockpile or nuclear power pack go off in the midst of swarms of thousands," and you have the worst example in the entire Rifts Universe about how "God" protects the Massive North American Plot Device -er, I mean The Coalition -from suffering serious, existential harm.

[cornholioprime]

just to be clear, is there ANYTHING that suggests that the xiticix will let you punch or kick them, shoot their wings, destroy their gear, etc, and not immediately treat that as hostile activity and kill you?

No, but it does say that they will kill you just for existing.

Good one!!

Xiticix Queen: "Has the Xiticix Swarm reached a verdict?"

Xiticix Swarm: "I HAVVVVVVE."

Xiticix Queen: "Innocent..Or..Guilty?"

Xiticix Swarm: "INNNOCENNT."


Xiticix Queen: "Throw them to the Sharktico- I mean, turn them into mulch to fertilize the food for the Hive."