Realism of Jericho Holmes survival in Xiticix territory

[Axelmania]

Splitting this from the FOM thread since it is deviating into its own topic now.

The army walked in and out precisely because they did NOT try to 'beat' them. They hunkered down, did only purely defensive maneuvers, and deliberately stuck to non-lethal attacks. No death scent to trigger swarming, no hostile activities likely to further enrage the Xitixic, and sticking strictly to ground-based action--no flights.

Had they not done that, then the army would, indeed, have been wiped out to the last. So saying they 'beat' the Xitixic is a willful misreading of the book--they SURVIVED the Xitixic, in a way that will not be of any help whatsoever when the hives start encroaching upon CS territory--there, the only option will be to engage or to retreat.

And the reason this worked as well as it did is because it was an unknown unknown. Virtually every encounter with the bugs has been hostile in nature, and has thus led to an escalation, with the Xitixic coming out on top. The CS can't use Jones' strategy to deal with the Xitixic, because it leaves the hives fully intact.

In cases where the CS are forced to kill or accidentally deplete over 90% MDC, critics should remember it is "up to" 4 miles. This probably means with optimal conditions, like the breeze blowing it toward you and it freshly happening. There is no minimim range that I can see so it is up to the GM how reactive it is.

There is also no swarm people allude to. The scent makes bgs come investigate. By the time they catch the scent the killers could be gone.

It is also plausible to get a super SAMAS to carry corpses at low alttitude elsewhere to detract pursuers from the slower forces.

I think people imagine Xiticix as incapable of retreating. XI17 says they instinctively use the best strategy and fleeing when hurt against opponents who aren't initiating aggression is the best strategy.

I've PLAYED Rifts. The Xitcitix are MDC creatures and things like Warriors and Super Warriors *will* attack them. Not only do the books NOT explain how they did it, but to believe that they never killed one single Xitcitix, which is all it would take, that they never got near a hive, that they never came into contact with a single patrol that got away... No. Not just no. Heck no.

Read the Xitcitix Invasion. What they did, using the tactics you outlined, would NEVER have worked. Not only that but they wouldn't have "made it out the other side" if they hunkered down. They would have been holding position, which they didn't do. These guys did a forced march right through the Xitcitix Hivelands and didn't rile up the hives. Uh huh... No.

Try knocking out an MDC creature. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Didn't work so well did it?

Knocking out isn't necessary. Just keeping them at bay. Except when going crazy when all the queens are killed off tell me where it talks about them not being capable of retreat and being compelled to fight to the death?

Except for the ones with TK rifles most will be outclassed by your basic SAMAS in range and would strategically retreat once they realized they were outmatched in firepower and speed.

Swarming isn't their only tactic. They use it when it works but not when it doesn't.

[Blue_Lion]

Your not thinking like a hive race who just had one of there hives attacked. He did not just hide near a hive he had the hive attacked to cause a swarm then hid in the swarm. That is what people have trouble swallowing, the Cs triggers a swarm then hides inside the swarm and marches out almost fully intact.

It is like saying you can kick a wasp nest and you are fine as long as you do not try and kill any the wasps.

Any weapon capable of harming them at range could kill them. The only non-lethal weapon in the CS inventory is a nero mace. If you are out ranging them you are shooting at them and that is not the use of non-lethal force.

Sure the trigger scent may not always go four miles but inside event where they are swarming looking for something to kill it is going to draw allot of them in.

[Eagle]

I don't have a problem with it working. It's a crazy, one last hope, James T. Kirk kind of plan.

I'd have to read the book again to recall the exact details of how it happened, and honestly I don't care about it enough to do that, but I remember that the first time I read it, I thought it was reasonable enough. The Xiticix book had come out before the war on Tolkeen series. So presumably the CS had a decent amount of knowledge of how the Xiticix worked and what triggered them. So Holmes goes in with a half-cocked theory and crosses his fingers. I mean, it's either stay here and die for sure, or poke the hornet's nest and only probably die. One is better odds than the other, right?

[HWalsh]

Axel...

Here... First... No. The Xiticix don't act like you described. This is covered on page 17 of Xiticix invasion.

Xiticix are rather insect-like in their combat activities. If one gets riled, those around them tend to get excited and every one of them starts moving about rapidly. The agitated creatures are primed for action, and quick to respond to trouble, attacking any outsider/invader/intruder they happen to notice.

Meaning... You rile up a nest? You get attacked. They don't retreat. They attack. Period.

They use the weight of numbers, swarming attacks and aerial combat to their advantage, and are organized, methodical, loyal, fearless and obedient in combat, even in the face of death.

Meaning, they don't run. Fearless.

Then you do quote they use the best tactics... That doesn't mean they retreat. Retreating, a tactical withdrawal, isn't actually a tactic. It certainly isn't the kind of tactics they are referring to. Unless they were retreating to gather a much larger force and come after the targets. Which, well, is exactly what would happen.

The ONLY time they'd retreat from a battle is if they were going to gather reinforcements or if they were needed to protect the queen. That is pretty much it. They are literally modeled on the behavior of real world wasps.

Then, if you ARE able to hurt them, they won't retreat. They'll send more enemies. Then if you kill their leaders they STILL don't retreat. While it would be possible for a SMALL force to evade them... A large force? HECK NO. This isn't like, 6 people stealthing through the jungle... We're talking about a HUGE group with giant robots and power armor... There is NO WAY IN HECK that would go unnoticed and unmolested by the Xits.

Read raiding swarms on page 19.

Here is, really, what would have happened.

-----

The hive gets riled, the Xits swarm. The CS tries to retreat, even fight them off, and do. The Xits retreat. The CS tries to press on, but... A few hours later an even larger swarm than the last descends on them... More CS die, the death scent is on the CS itself now. Everywhere they travel they find a swarm awaiting to pounce on them. The Xits are hunting them, actively, and when they reach the center of the Hivelands... That is when it happens...

A massive army, twenty times larger than the number of CS troops, from numerous hives descend. The CS troops have no hope. They all die. Slaughtered to the last man. The Xits now see the CS, the skill motif, as their enemy. They take that information and prepare. Prepare to war with the Coalition.

[IGNG]

Page 107 SoT: "Radio contact with the army has been lost a... CS intelligence confirms reports that the Duluth Hive is in a frenzy... Aerial confirmation is impossible as the cloud of Xiticix obscures the ground ..."* But you know the bugs haven't updated their prescriptions in a while and so missed the 308,000 troops AND THEIR EQUIPMENT AKA GIAN NOISY ROBOTS.

*emphasis mine

World book 23 page 38: a Xiticix hunter can track a scent trail that is 6 days old.And before someone says something about EBA... they just got done geting their ass kicked and taking 25% fatal casualties. People be bleeding all over.

World book 23 page 40: Within the borders of Xiticix territory the response time to a chemical alarm is d4 minutes.

So no you can't just up and move on (with 308,000 people) or move the body. I would also like to point out that in order for the force to have been able to wait for months (plural) it would have had to bring its own logistics train. You now that thing designed to move a bunch of stuff from point A to point B not to be inconspicuous or have great turns of speed.

Edit: I would also like to point out that both atlantis and Lazlo have decided that genocide is the only reasonable way to deal with the Xiticix. They aren't going to leave you alone if you try to be their friend and if atlantis is worried about not being able to intimidate them into not attacking atlantis itself then you are going to be able to "keep them at bay" just by looking scarry and waveing guns in their general direction.

[Axelmania]

BlueLion a 2d6 shot can hurt them without risking death. Did they breathe underwater or did they ride the tidal wave? Did the swarm get ahead of them and know to look back?

HWalsh attacking outsiders is overridden by always using the best tactic: meaning they end their attack if it isnt fruitful. Cite for no retreats?

Using weight of numbers doesn't mean you never run, because you don't always have numbers.

For example: 1000 Xiticix split into 100 groups of 10 would be indidividually outnumbered by a group of 20 CS. CS has speed advantages which would require separating to pincer them, which lowers swarm density until you no longer have an effective advantage.

Gathering reinforcements is the only motivation you need here. Motivate them to do that and be gone by the time they come back.with them.

19 gives two motives for Rswarms, retaliation or defense. Assuming retaliation is what he triggered, they still need needed close to 4000 feet.

Snipers would also be capable of sharpshootinf TK rifles without starting deathscents. That is the primary issue here. If you reduce them to melee or resin/glob guns you've basically won.

It also doesn't release a death scent to shoot off a wing. Reducing them to ground troops could be done to take out those they can't out maneuver otherwise.

IGNG do you recall where it says how many bots and which bots?

[Freemage]

First and foremost, Jericho did not attack the hive. He went into the territory, and that caused the swarm, but he did not engage the enemy. He had his troops hide inside the armored units, while the Samas used non-lethal attacks to make the Xitixic raids do as little damage as possible.

The Xitixic didn't lose the trail, or otherwise fail to track them. Rather, after a sustained assault, they broke off the attack when the Coalition troops consistently failed to strike back, AND left their territory in as non-aggressive a fashion as possible. In short, they decided the machines rolling along the ground, AWAY from their hive, were no serious threat to them, and therefore, there was no benefit to striking them.

I'm not getting where people are saying the Xitixic 'retreated'. It was more like, "We won, we drove the invading force completely away, with no loss of insectoid life, let's kill a few more of the worthless meatbags on their way out and then go back to the hive and party."

It's also worth noting that Holmes' troops appeared to be heading in the direction of a rival hive--to the bugs, that's a win-win situation (and that's where "best tactics" comes in).

Finally, this wasn't a case of the Coalition escaping 'unscathed'. Jericho lost 25% of the forces he went in there with, basically sacrificing those troops to let the others live.

[HWalsh]

BlueLion a 2d6 shot can hurt them without risking death. Did they breathe underwater or did they ride the tidal wave? Did the swarm get ahead of them and know to look back?

HWalsh attacking outsiders is overridden by always using the best tactic: meaning they end their attack if it isnt fruitful. Cite for no retreats?

Using weight of numbers doesn't mean you never run, because you don't always have numbers.

For example: 1000 Xiticix split into 100 groups of 10 would be indidividually outnumbered by a group of 20 CS. CS has speed advantages which would require separating to pincer them, which lowers swarm density until you no longer have an effective advantage.

Gathering reinforcements is the only motivation you need here. Motivate them to do that and be gone by the time they come back.with them.

19 gives two motives for Rswarms, retaliation or defense. Assuming retaliation is what he triggered, they still need needed close to 4000 feet.

Snipers would also be capable of sharpshootinf TK rifles without starting deathscents. That is the primary issue here. If you reduce them to melee or resin/glob guns you've basically won.

It also doesn't release a death scent to shoot off a wing. Reducing them to ground troops could be done to take out those they can't out maneuver otherwise.

IGNG do you recall where it says how many bots and which bots?

Oh come on. Give me a break. Can't you EVER admit that some things the CS do make no sense?

The fact that I can poke holes in your argument means that the Xits could.

If they are shooting your people down, as you outlined, here is what is going to happen:

10 Xiticix -

1 Gets his rifle shot, 1 gets a wing blown off... 8 fall back...

Xit 3: "Okay, you. Xit Hunter, sacrifice your life by dive bombing them and spraying one of them with your tracking scent."
Xit Hunter: "Yes sir. I'll die though."
Xit 3: "For the colony."
Xit Hunter: "Yes sir."

Xit Hunter sacrifices itself and spits up on a CS vehicle.

Xit 3: "Okay, you. Xit 7. Go back, alert the Hive. Tell them that there is a human army in the area that is an absolute threat. Have them send hunters to the other hives. We'll keep tracking the scent. Gather as many as you can, we'll overwhelm them with numbers."

Xit 7: "Sir, their weapons will kill us at a greater range than we can engage."

Xit 3: "Their weapons will kill some of us. They can't shoot us all and if we advance with greater numbers we can swarm them. There are around three hundred thousand, we have several Billion... I think we can get one million here within the next 6 days. Also spread the word. Keep having Hunters mark them so we don't lose track of them."

Xit 7: "Yes sir!"

Within 6 days all of the CS are killed.

[Eagle]

So the Xiticix book doesn't say how long their pheromones last. The death scent will stay on a person for a few days, but that's if you kill one in hand to hand. We don't have any idea how long the others last. The "Call to Arms" scent is what triggers their response to a threat to the hive. We know that it makes a bunch of them fly out ready to attack. We don't know how long it takes to wear off. And we know that they're driven by their scents (the book says that if you cover yourself with the hive's scent, they think you're part of the hive).

The key to Holmes' strategy was that they waited out the Xiticix response. Eventually the alarm scent would diminish, and with no death scent there to keep them stirred up, they lose interest. They aren't just going to keep attacking as long as any living being is in the area. The CS troops would be dodging, parrying, using smoke grenades, etc., to try to stay alive during the initial attack. Plenty would be killed anyway. But eventually the scents are going to tell the hive that the threat is over.

[eliakon]

The entire survival thing is a complete plot armored ^$# grab.
The Xiticix book goes to pains to tell how suicidaly hard it is to move in bug territory with out being constantly attacked, and how it takes special skills and training and supplies to sneak around. it goes on at length about how the bugs attack everything they see and how they react to vehicles and on and on...
And then all of that is thrown out the window when it is convenient to allow Holmes to make an amazing miracle attack from total surprise.
Because... as far as I can see, the authors had painted themselves into a corner and need some deus ex machine to kill of Tolkeen.

[Eagle]

The most unrealistic part to me is that it doesn't take months to make that journey. This isn't the Lewis and Clark expedition. Minnesota isn't that big.

[IGNG]

*sniped*

A few things

1) shooting at them makes you a hostile intruder so the squad of 10 drops back and send 3 to rais the alarm while the other 7 shadow the army. Its an army of 308,000 people You don't do some bugs bunny, elmer fudd sequence where you accidentally run past them and they sneak after you.

2) if 10,000 xiticix run into 300k they aren't going to sit there counting heads for 5-6 days to figure out if they are outnumbered. they are going to glance around and see their hundred or so buddies, the hundred or so enemies in line of sight think "**** it that looks even" and attack.

3) The xiticix have the speed advantage by a factor of about 5:1 and that's if they wait for the diggers.

4) He would have whatever robots 400,000 CS troops would have been issued.

Pg 109 of SoT 5 says that the Xiticix just stopped attacking after killing 25% of the CS troops. No explanation given. Also the fact that I'm supposed to believe that 400,000 people just sat there watching their friends get ripped limb from limb without firing a shot or using a vibro knife is just insulting. That not one single person (or dog boy) pulled the trigger? That not one single missile or grenade detonated when shredded?

So the Xiticix book doesn't say how long their pheromones last. < it says 5-6 days

The most unrealistic part to me is that it doesn't take months to make that journey. This isn't the Lewis and Clark expedition. Minnesota isn't that big.<I think the book says 3 weeks at 10 mph so 5000 miles, remember the Xiticix wouldn't let them stop for more than a few min at a time.

[HWalsh]

*sniped*

A few things

1) shooting at them makes you a hostile intruder so the squad of 10 drops back and send 3 to rais the alarm while the other 7 shadow the army. Its an army of 308,000 people You don't do some bugs bunny, elmer fudd sequence where you accidentally run past them and they sneak after you.

2) if 10,000 xiticix run into 300k they aren't going to sit there counting heads for 5-6 days to figure out if they are outnumbered. they are going to glance around and see their hundred or so buddies, the hundred or so enemies in line of sight think "**** it that looks even" and attack.

3) The xiticix have the speed advantage by a factor of about 5:1 and that's if they wait for the diggers.

4) He would have whatever robots 400,000 CS troops would have been issued.

Pg 109 of SoT 5 says that the Xiticix just stopped attacking after killing 25% of the CS troops. No explanation given. Also the fact that I'm supposed to believe that 400,000 people just sat there watching their friends get ripped limb from limb without firing a shot or using a vibro knife is just insulting. That not one single person (or dog boy) pulled the trigger? That not one single missile or grenade detonated when shredded?

So the Xiticix book doesn't say how long their pheromones last. < it says 5-6 days

The most unrealistic part to me is that it doesn't take months to make that journey. This isn't the Lewis and Clark expedition. Minnesota isn't that big.<I think the book says 3 weeks at 10 mph so 5000 miles, remember the Xiticix wouldn't let them stop for more than a few min at a time.

See, I don't even mind a lot of them surviving...

My problem is them surviving and being combat-ready when they came out. They just watched a huge number of their friends slaughtered by the most terrifying supernatural attack any of them have ever seen, they were cut off from the rest of the army, then they spent weeks in a horrifying situation, with no supply lines, presumably watching a quarter of their friends slaughtered. Then they emerged in fighting shape, willing to plunge right into battle, and having the weapons, armor, and vehicles to do so?

No. (Expletive) no. They would be mentally, and physically, exhausted. Vehicles and armor would be shredded to bits. The battle fatigue alone would cause ridiculous amounts of mental breaks among the men. There would be no way in the nine circles of Hades that they'd be charging into battle with Tolkeen.

[Incriptus]

Realism is an odd word here ... but basically you had a fictionalized "Hannibal Crossing the Alps" moment, a seemingly impossible attack that worked (despite the losses). At worse you can simply chalk it up to a Retcon of Xiticx behavior, or at best say no-one has ever done what Holmes so there is no precident and accept it.

Heck maybe it was a side effect of the Ley Line Triange Defense that made it so Tolkeen didn't immediately fall to Long Range Missiles.

[dreicunan]

The survival of Holmes and his men was as stupid as Tolkeen ever even talking to Free Quebec. It was one of the dumbest things in books chock full of stupid. I still remember laughing out loud with friends at how ludicrous it was when the book came out.

[Blue_Lion]

BlueLion a 2d6 shot can hurt them without risking death. Did they breathe underwater or did they ride the tidal wave? Did the swarm get ahead of them and know to look back?

HWalsh attacking outsiders is overridden by always using the best tactic: meaning they end their attack if it isnt fruitful. Cite for no retreats?

Using weight of numbers doesn't mean you never run, because you don't always have numbers.

For example: 1000 Xiticix split into 100 groups of 10 would be indidividually outnumbered by a group of 20 CS. CS has speed advantages which would require separating to pincer them, which lowers swarm density until you no longer have an effective advantage.

Gathering reinforcements is the only motivation you need here. Motivate them to do that and be gone by the time they come back.with them.

19 gives two motives for Rswarms, retaliation or defense. Assuming retaliation is what he triggered, they still need needed close to 4000 feet.

Snipers would also be capable of sharpshootinf TK rifles without starting deathscents. That is the primary issue here. If you reduce them to melee or resin/glob guns you've basically won.

It also doesn't release a death scent to shoot off a wing. Reducing them to ground troops could be done to take out those they can't out maneuver otherwise.

IGNG do you recall where it says how many bots and which bots?

Got it ignore how the book says they act in favor allowing the CS to stroll throw an upset swarm.
Sure 2d6 will not kill them in one shot but they are not going to run they are fearless swarm of death. Also you said out range them with samas that means rail guns doing 1d4X10. You have a tendency to counter peoples counters with things that ignore your original post stance and the logic being addressed making a moving goal post in your debate. If you going to out range them with samas you are going to kill them. The book says they where swarming that means attacking every thing in the hive land and PA typically can not prowl.

[Blue_Lion]

First and foremost, Jericho did not attack the hive. He went into the territory, and that caused the swarm, but he did not engage the enemy. He had his troops hide inside the armored units, while the Samas used non-lethal attacks to make the Xitixic raids do as little damage as possible.

The Xitixic didn't lose the trail, or otherwise fail to track them. Rather, after a sustained assault, they broke off the attack when the Coalition troops consistently failed to strike back, AND left their territory in as non-aggressive a fashion as possible. In short, they decided the machines rolling along the ground, AWAY from their hive, were no serious threat to them, and therefore, there was no benefit to striking them.

I'm not getting where people are saying the Xitixic 'retreated'. It was more like, "We won, we drove the invading force completely away, with no loss of insectoid life, let's kill a few more of the worthless meatbags on their way out and then go back to the hive and party."

It's also worth noting that Holmes' troops appeared to be heading in the direction of a rival hive--to the bugs, that's a win-win situation (and that's where "best tactics" comes in).

Finally, this wasn't a case of the Coalition escaping 'unscathed'. Jericho lost 25% of the forces he went in there with, basically sacrificing those troops to let the others live.

Wait so let me get this strait I could have swarm the swarm was caused by Cs attacking the hive, maybe i miss remembered that is there a page number that says him going into the hive land caused the swarm. How did he cause a swarm and not suffer much heaver losses.

But what non lethal attacks I do not remember reading anything about that you got a page number. Seams really thin to me. I do not see non lethal attack working very well on a swarm. The bugs where swarming while he was hiding.

Basically his forces should have been under siege for months cut off from supplies in hive lands during a swarm. What did that 300K troupes eat for a month(Cs does not train most their troops in survival)? What super sneaky non lethal attack drives back bugs without your defending samas getting ripped apart by the swarm. What sort of armor you hiding in that is not tagged and shredded by the swarm.

Months in a swarm with no supplies to only loose 25% and come out with supplies to fight just is a bit of a logical stretch.

[camk4evr]

It's been awhile since I read the Xiticix Invasion but I seem to recall that the xits will automatically attack groups larger than a certain number of people (6-8 maybe?).

[RockJock]

I can buy the SAMAS PA leading the bugs in a different direction then the ground forces to give them some distance, but that isn't brought up.

Let's assume all the Deadboys are in APC/bots/PAs of some kind, to give more protection, and speed up their movements across the hivelands. And let's assume that there was no diversion of SAMAS like was brought up above, since there is no mention anywhere of that happening. That leaves us with a giant convoy not fighting back, even as 25% of their number is ripped limb from limb? Juicers and Dogboys deciding not to help their friends and pack mates who are being diced to pieces?

I just can't buy the passive response. At some point the most disciplined troop is going to fight back in that situation. If it was all Skelebots under orders sure, but not flesh and blood troops.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I guess everybody forget the that force from lazlo were also in the area too.
Sure they didn't take kindly to the CS moving thru their land, but again since they do see each other as rivals, they don't like it when a rival xiticix trespass into their hiveland , then nobody took in account what the xiticix queens' reaction of this was , she might just ordered the standard "remind them not to stop" harassment attacks , because sure their could kill the CS passing thru , but it might come as price of weakening their hive ability to defend against rival xiticix.
But this just my thoughts on the matter.

[HWalsh]

I guess everybody forget the that force from lazlo were also in the area too.
Sure they didn't take kindly to the CS moving thru their land, but again since they do see each other as rivals, they don't like it when a rival xiticix trespass into their hiveland , then nobody took in account what the xiticix queens' reaction of this was , she might just ordered the standard "remind them not to stop" harassment attacks , because sure their could kill the CS passing thru , but it might come as price of weakening their hive ability to defend against rival xiticix.
But this just my thoughts on the matter.

Well... Since people also doubted that the Xiticix would fight to the death... I figure I'll put t here as well... Since this is a question about how the Xits react.

Pages 10-11 state that the Xits will attack and fight to the death and that large groups will be attacked with each enemy getting 2 warriors, and each power armor or vehicle getting 4-8 so, if we assume that Jericho's forces were 1/3 mechanized, this means 200,000 non-mechanized and 100,000 mechanized forces. If we assume the average median number for the mechanized forces that means that Jericho's forces would have been besieged by no less than 1,000,000 (400,000 for the non-armored units, around 600,000 for the armored units) Xiticix. So no... Moving... Keeping their heads down... Not fighting back... Nope. They wold be fought off and destroyed until they left the hive lands.

The idea that they fight against other hives... Yes and no. We are told on page 23 of Xiticix Invasion that they only do that when no other enemies are present and will work together to destroy invaders. So the Queens wouldn't call them off, the other Queens would be sending people in. This is really simple... The "Go through the hive lands" thing was bad writing. There is no way it could happen by the rules that had already been established. Heck the CS didn't need them to survive to win either. They should have just let them die.

[Freemage]

First and foremost, Jericho did not attack the hive. He went into the territory, and that caused the swarm, but he did not engage the enemy. He had his troops hide inside the armored units, while the Samas used non-lethal attacks to make the Xitixic raids do as little damage as possible.

The Xitixic didn't lose the trail, or otherwise fail to track them. Rather, after a sustained assault, they broke off the attack when the Coalition troops consistently failed to strike back, AND left their territory in as non-aggressive a fashion as possible. In short, they decided the machines rolling along the ground, AWAY from their hive, were no serious threat to them, and therefore, there was no benefit to striking them.

I'm not getting where people are saying the Xitixic 'retreated'. It was more like, "We won, we drove the invading force completely away, with no loss of insectoid life, let's kill a few more of the worthless meatbags on their way out and then go back to the hive and party."

It's also worth noting that Holmes' troops appeared to be heading in the direction of a rival hive--to the bugs, that's a win-win situation (and that's where "best tactics" comes in).

Finally, this wasn't a case of the Coalition escaping 'unscathed'. Jericho lost 25% of the forces he went in there with, basically sacrificing those troops to let the others live.

Wait so let me get this strait I could have swarm the swarm was caused by Cs attacking the hive, maybe i miss remembered that is there a page number that says him going into the hive land caused the swarm. How did he cause a swarm and not suffer much heaver losses.

The point is, NO ONE attacked the hive. There's no page number where the hive gets attacked, ever. What's stated is that Jericho entered the territory, and the bugs swarmed. Holmes' troops never fired off a shot.

But what non lethal attacks I do not remember reading anything about that you got a page number. Seams really thin to me. I do not see non lethal attack working very well on a swarm. The bugs where swarming while he was hiding.

He wasn't 'hiding'. He was hunkered down, his troops sheltered as best they could be in the vehicles. This is all in the Epilogue of Book 4 or 5. And the key part of his tactics wasn't the non-lethal attacks (made by the SAMAS using hand-to-hand combat); it was the smoke. Remember that whole bit about the Xitixic being scent-based communicators? Holmes ordered his troops to make a lot of smoke, clouding the air around the swarm. This is actually a sound strategy--beekeepers use similar methods to keep from getting stung.

Basically his forces should have been under siege for months cut off from supplies in hive lands during a swarm. What did that 300K troupes eat for a month(Cs does not train most their troops in survival)? What super sneaky non lethal attack drives back bugs without your defending samas getting ripped apart by the swarm. What sort of armor you hiding in that is not tagged and shredded by the swarm.

Once he got far enough away from the hive, the bugs backed off, letting his troops re-enter borderland territory between Tolkeen and the Hiveland. His troops did their scavenging there--in territory that had been heavily depopulated as the Tolkeenites moved all their forces (and called upon civilians) to move south to face the known enemy.

People seem to think there's this big wall, and on one side you've got the Hivelands, and the other is populated Tolkeen, like Unterland's border in The Venture Brothers. Nope--once you're out of the Hivelands proper, it's wilderness, slowly morphing to rural farmlands, and it was virtually unpatrolled because the Tolkeenites assumed that Holmes' division was dead.

No 'sneaking' involved. They slunk away, moving slowly so as to not re-agitate the Xitixic, but also not stopping long enough to be perceived as a threat, accepting the losses inflicted upon them by the Xitixic. They did lose 25% of their troops AND their armor during this period.

Months in a swarm with no supplies to only loose 25% and come out with supplies to fight just is a bit of a logical stretch.

[/quote][/quote]
Not months in a swarm. Months between the time they disappeared and the time they came back gunning at the northern border, yes. The swarming lasted a few weeks, and again, it was mostly clusters of Xitixic coming down, killing a few grunts, then getting driven off by smoke and non-lethals.

Then they enter the no-man's land between Xitixic territory and Tolkeen, and forage as they move south again.

[HWalsh]

He wasn't 'hiding'. He was hunkered down, his troops sheltered as best they could be in the vehicles. This is all in the Epilogue of Book 4 or 5. And the key part of his tactics wasn't the non-lethal attacks (made by the SAMAS using hand-to-hand combat); it was the smoke. Remember that whole bit about the Xitixic being scent-based communicators? Holmes ordered his troops to make a lot of smoke, clouding the air around the swarm. This is actually a sound strategy--beekeepers use similar methods to keep from getting stung.

Hold on.

Again, none of that would work. Smoke works on bees because when a bee is exposed to smoke they react as if to a fire, where they gather as much honey as they can which causes their stomachs to swell which prevents the stinger from engaging. While it does disrupt their ability to communicate, via messing with pheromones, this wouldn't work on the Xiticix. Why? While the Xits use it to spread a death scent and mark targets the Xits can see, and hear, and communicate with each other directly, not via smell, but via traditional communication. They speak by way of ultrasonic sound. (XI pg. 37)

By the rules and tactics laid out the Xits wouldn't have calmed down. They were a group larger than 20. They would have attacked and kept attacking until the invaders were dead. Thus the slow retreat wouldn't have worked. At all. The fact is, the tactics laid out, wouldn't work and would have just gotten Jericho and all of his men killed. If anything their best bet for survival would have been to break, scatter, and run.

Once he got far enough away from the hive, the bugs backed off, letting his troops re-enter borderland territory between Tolkeen and the Hiveland. His troops did their scavenging there--in territory that had been heavily depopulated as the Tolkeenites moved all their forces (and called upon civilians) to move south to face the known enemy.

Nope. That isn't how they operate. They don't top. Even if you flee they don't stop. That is clearly outlined.

Then they enter the no-man's land between Xitixic territory and Tolkeen, and forage as they move south again.

Again... No. They would have entered the no-man's land and the Xit would have kept coming. They don't stop once they swarm if a group is larger than 20 people. Ever.

[camk4evr]

Again... No. They would have entered the no-man's land and the Xit would have kept coming. They don't stop once they swarm if a group is larger than 20 people. Ever.

And, if by some miracle, Holmes was able to to escape the hiveland with any of his troops, the xiticix would have followed him out and attacked any other CS troops that they saw (this was a plan that was brought up in Xiticix Invasion)

[HWalsh]

Again... No. They would have entered the no-man's land and the Xit would have kept coming. They don't stop once they swarm if a group is larger than 20 people. Ever.

And, if by some miracle, Holmes was able to to escape the hiveland with any of his troops, the xiticix would have followed him out and attacked any other CS troops that they saw (this was a plan that was brought up in Xiticix Invasion)

Which ALSO would have made a great end to SoT.

He charges out of the hivelands, and an army of Xits descend on the CS and tear them apart. The CS loses, loses bad, their forces are reduced from millions to only a few hundred thousand. They are hurt and wounded, badly, and now... Now they have justification for the fear... They are now a wounded and hurt animal that can't throw its weight around and get what it wants anymore... Which suddenly makes the other things threatening them actually scary...

Nothing is scarier than a wounded animal that feels like it is backed into a corner.

[Eagle]

Again... No. They would have entered the no-man's land and the Xit would have kept coming. They don't stop once they swarm if a group is larger than 20 people. Ever.

And, if by some miracle, Holmes was able to to escape the hiveland with any of his troops, the xiticix would have followed him out and attacked any other CS troops that they saw (this was a plan that was brought up in Xiticix Invasion)

Which ALSO would have made a great end to SoT.

He charges out of the hivelands, and an army of Xits descend on the CS and tear them apart. The CS loses, loses bad, their forces are reduced from millions to only a few hundred thousand. They are hurt and wounded, badly, and now... Now they have justification for the fear... They are now a wounded and hurt animal that can't throw its weight around and get what it wants anymore... Which suddenly makes the other things threatening them actually scary...

Nothing is scarier than a wounded animal that feels like it is backed into a corner.

Dude you're way too invested in having the CS lose.

[HWalsh]

Again... No. They would have entered the no-man's land and the Xit would have kept coming. They don't stop once they swarm if a group is larger than 20 people. Ever.

And, if by some miracle, Holmes was able to to escape the hiveland with any of his troops, the xiticix would have followed him out and attacked any other CS troops that they saw (this was a plan that was brought up in Xiticix Invasion)

Which ALSO would have made a great end to SoT.

He charges out of the hivelands, and an army of Xits descend on the CS and tear them apart. The CS loses, loses bad, their forces are reduced from millions to only a few hundred thousand. They are hurt and wounded, badly, and now... Now they have justification for the fear... They are now a wounded and hurt animal that can't throw its weight around and get what it wants anymore... Which suddenly makes the other things threatening them actually scary...

Nothing is scarier than a wounded animal that feels like it is backed into a corner.

Dude you're way too invested in having the CS lose.

I want them reduced to a realistic power level via metaplot. I make no secret of this. I adhere to the metaplot when I run usually, as such it bothers me that I have something that I know, logistically, can't work as an integral part of the core lore.

[Nightmask]

Again... No. They would have entered the no-man's land and the Xit would have kept coming. They don't stop once they swarm if a group is larger than 20 people. Ever.

And, if by some miracle, Holmes was able to to escape the hiveland with any of his troops, the xiticix would have followed him out and attacked any other CS troops that they saw (this was a plan that was brought up in Xiticix Invasion)

Which ALSO would have made a great end to SoT.

He charges out of the hivelands, and an army of Xits descend on the CS and tear them apart. The CS loses, loses bad, their forces are reduced from millions to only a few hundred thousand. They are hurt and wounded, badly, and now... Now they have justification for the fear... They are now a wounded and hurt animal that can't throw its weight around and get what it wants anymore... Which suddenly makes the other things threatening them actually scary...

Nothing is scarier than a wounded animal that feels like it is backed into a corner.

Dude you're way too invested in having the CS lose.

More you're too invested in insisting that they just had to win no matter how much they should have obviously lost.

[HWalsh]

More you're too invested in insisting that they just had to win no matter how much they should have obviously lost.

Its not really the issue... The problem is they were already comically overpowered. Then this happens... They actually end it more powerful than they were when they started it somehow.

They suffer loss after loss after loss then, somehow, they are more powerful than ever?

Afterwards they get hit by the minion war and then they double their army's size.

Combine it with the Xits no longer being a threat because they have been altered so radically in behavior and threat level by Jericho, then add the new numbers, and you end up with this massive, unstoppable, seemingly invulnerable, monstrosity that the setting keeps making even stronger. They need a depowering worse than Superman did at the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths.

[Freemage]

Again... No. They would have entered the no-man's land and the Xit would have kept coming. They don't stop once they swarm if a group is larger than 20 people. Ever.

And, if by some miracle, Holmes was able to to escape the hiveland with any of his troops, the xiticix would have followed him out and attacked any other CS troops that they saw (this was a plan that was brought up in Xiticix Invasion)

Which ALSO would have made a great end to SoT.

He charges out of the hivelands, and an army of Xits descend on the CS and tear them apart. The CS loses, loses bad, their forces are reduced from millions to only a few hundred thousand. They are hurt and wounded, badly, and now... Now they have justification for the fear... They are now a wounded and hurt animal that can't throw its weight around and get what it wants anymore... Which suddenly makes the other things threatening them actually scary...

Nothing is scarier than a wounded animal that feels like it is backed into a corner.

Actually, the most likely result of what you described would be TOLKEEN getting devoured by the Xitixic (which would, I admit, been an interesting end to the SoT--a draw, with both sides losing the territory to the bugs). After all, under your scenario, the surviving troops under Holmes would've fled, been pursued, and thus taken the swarm straight into the heart of the territory, running right up to the city; the bugs do the exact thing that Holmes' troops did in the original text, but even more savagely, attacking the CS after Tolkeen falls. The entire state of Minnesota becomes a new wasteland, Tolkeen and its inhabitants are destroyed even more utterly than the CS did (no refugees get to get out), and the CS suffers the massive defeat that your loins are aching for.

[HWalsh]

Again... No. They would have entered the no-man's land and the Xit would have kept coming. They don't stop once they swarm if a group is larger than 20 people. Ever.

And, if by some miracle, Holmes was able to to escape the hiveland with any of his troops, the xiticix would have followed him out and attacked any other CS troops that they saw (this was a plan that was brought up in Xiticix Invasion)

Which ALSO would have made a great end to SoT.

He charges out of the hivelands, and an army of Xits descend on the CS and tear them apart. The CS loses, loses bad, their forces are reduced from millions to only a few hundred thousand. They are hurt and wounded, badly, and now... Now they have justification for the fear... They are now a wounded and hurt animal that can't throw its weight around and get what it wants anymore... Which suddenly makes the other things threatening them actually scary...

Nothing is scarier than a wounded animal that feels like it is backed into a corner.

Actually, the most likely result of what you described would be TOLKEEN getting devoured by the Xitixic (which would, I admit, been an interesting end to the SoT--a draw, with both sides losing the territory to the bugs). After all, under your scenario, the surviving troops under Holmes would've fled, been pursued, and thus taken the swarm straight into the heart of the territory, running right up to the city; the bugs do the exact thing that Holmes' troops did in the original text, but even more savagely, attacking the CS after Tolkeen falls. The entire state of Minnesota becomes a new wasteland, Tolkeen and its inhabitants are destroyed even more utterly than the CS did (no refugees get to get out), and the CS suffers the massive defeat that your loins are aching for.

That would have worked really well.

Heck, even do a twist more than that...

The CS and Tolkeen soldiers join forces in the city in a last stand trying to save themselves.

Both sides get wiped out (maybe some get out, maybe they don't) and both the CS forces and the Tolkeen forces are obliterated. The Xits wouldn't expand at that point (not how they operate) but it would be an interesting change to the setting to see the CS halting the Campaign of Unity after that because they now have a bigger monster to fight.

Or...

The CS and Tolkeen solders join forces in the city in a last stand trying to save themselves and succeed after holding out for weeks.

The forces are depleted, but parts of both survive. Both sides are so ravaged and, after having just fought together for an extended period of time, both sides simply don't want to fight anymore. The CS never sends reinforcements though out of fear that that would draw the Xits toward their main cities.

A chunk of CS soldiers who were at Tolkeen feel like the CS stabbed them in the back. A chunk of the survivors of Tolkeen feel like their leadership sent them into a battle that they couldn't win. With both sides feeling disaffected a new Kingdom in the ruins of Tolkeen begins to emerge...

There are so many interesting things that could have happened other than the CS roflstomps Tolkeen, the end.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I guess everybody forget the that force from lazlo were also in the area too.
Sure they didn't take kindly to the CS moving thru their land, but again since they do see each other as rivals, they don't like it when a rival xiticix trespass into their hiveland , then nobody took in account what the xiticix queens' reaction of this was , she might just ordered the standard "remind them not to stop" harassment attacks , because sure their could kill the CS passing thru , but it might come as price of weakening their hive ability to defend against rival xiticix.
But this just my thoughts on the matter.

Well... Since people also doubted that the Xiticix would fight to the death... I figure I'll put t here as well... Since this is a question about how the Xits react.

Pages 10-11 state that the Xits will attack and fight to the death and that large groups will be attacked with each enemy getting 2 warriors, and each power armor or vehicle getting 4-8 so, if we assume that Jericho's forces were 1/3 mechanized, this means 200,000 non-mechanized and 100,000 mechanized forces. If we assume the average median number for the mechanized forces that means that Jericho's forces would have been besieged by no less than 1,000,000 (400,000 for the non-armored units, around 600,000 for the armored units) Xiticix. So no... Moving... Keeping their heads down... Not fighting back... Nope. They wold be fought off and destroyed until they left the hive lands.

The idea that they fight against other hives... Yes and no. We are told on page 23 of Xiticix Invasion that they only do that when no other enemies are present and will work together to destroy invaders. So the Queens wouldn't call them off, the other Queens would be sending people in. This is really simple... The "Go through the hive lands" thing was bad writing. There is no way it could happen by the rules that had already been established. Heck the CS didn't need them to survive to win either. They should have just let them die.

And page 25 talks about two hive constantly fighting each other over land. It's comes down if the xiticix saw them as invaders or a large force passing thru, but I do agree it's bad writing, but given it palladium books in ten more years we might have canon that go against everything in that world book or some lame reason like they sprayed them with old axe body wash.

[HWalsh]

I guess everybody forget the that force from lazlo were also in the area too.
Sure they didn't take kindly to the CS moving thru their land, but again since they do see each other as rivals, they don't like it when a rival xiticix trespass into their hiveland , then nobody took in account what the xiticix queens' reaction of this was , she might just ordered the standard "remind them not to stop" harassment attacks , because sure their could kill the CS passing thru , but it might come as price of weakening their hive ability to defend against rival xiticix.
But this just my thoughts on the matter.

Well... Since people also doubted that the Xiticix would fight to the death... I figure I'll put t here as well... Since this is a question about how the Xits react.

Pages 10-11 state that the Xits will attack and fight to the death and that large groups will be attacked with each enemy getting 2 warriors, and each power armor or vehicle getting 4-8 so, if we assume that Jericho's forces were 1/3 mechanized, this means 200,000 non-mechanized and 100,000 mechanized forces. If we assume the average median number for the mechanized forces that means that Jericho's forces would have been besieged by no less than 1,000,000 (400,000 for the non-armored units, around 600,000 for the armored units) Xiticix. So no... Moving... Keeping their heads down... Not fighting back... Nope. They wold be fought off and destroyed until they left the hive lands.

The idea that they fight against other hives... Yes and no. We are told on page 23 of Xiticix Invasion that they only do that when no other enemies are present and will work together to destroy invaders. So the Queens wouldn't call them off, the other Queens would be sending people in. This is really simple... The "Go through the hive lands" thing was bad writing. There is no way it could happen by the rules that had already been established. Heck the CS didn't need them to survive to win either. They should have just let them die.

And page 25 talks about two hive constantly fighting each other over land. It's comes down if the xiticix saw them as invaders or a large force passing thru, but I do agree it's bad writing, but given it palladium books in ten more years we might have canon that go against everything in that world book or some lame reason like they sprayed them with old axe body wash.

Yeah but they only do that if there are no foreign invaders. So with the CS there they'd not be at war with one another.

[boring7]

It's easy, Splynncryth or some other troll superglued a TW item that dampens all scents (based on the illusory forest spell) to a tank so when two different hives showed up they couldn't tell what was what (combat pheremone confusion) and ended up shooting each other as much as anyone else.

option 2: A horde of wild vampires had been dropped on the Xiticix as a field-test of the new "vampire bombardment" strategy developed by Trollfaec Military Solutions Inc. (a subsidiary of GUMBO) and were currently keeping them all busy. Heavy rains a week later dealt with mop-up of the vamps but the fall of Tolkeen led to a temporary suspension of the project. That and there was an emergency injunction filed by People for the Ethical Treatment of Undead.

Option 3: Ol' Jericho Holmes was using an experimental Bullsh*ttium reactor to power his Mobile Command Base and the radiation had many confusing and far-reaching effects ranging from confusing the Xiticix command&control to shuddering space-time and creating a quantum-copy of the True Atlanteans and placing them in Lemuria.

[eliakon]

It's easy, Splynncryth or some other troll superglued a TW item that dampens all scents (based on the illusory forest spell) so when two different hives showed up they couldn't tell what was what (combat pheremone confusion) and ended up shooting each other as much as anyone else.

option 2: A horde of wild vampires had been dropped on the Xiticix as a field-test of the new "vampire bombardment" strategy developed by Trollfaec Military Solutions Inc. (a subsidiary of GUMBO) and were currently keeping them all busy. Heavy rains a week later dealt with mop-up of the vamps but the fall of Tolkeen led to a temporary suspension of the project. That and there was an emergency injunction filed by People for the Ethical Treatment of Undead.

Option 3: Ol' Jericho Holmes was using an experimental Bullsh*ttium reactor to power his Mobile Command Base and the radiation had many confusing and far-reaching effects ranging from confusing the Xiticix command&control to shuddering space-time and creating a quantum-copy of the True Atlanteans and placing them in Lemuria.

I think option 3 sounds like the most likely It fits all the facts neatly and requires the least amount of changes to the system.

[IGNG]

option 2: A horde of wild vampires had been dropped on the Xiticix as a field-test of the new "vampire bombardment" strategy developed by Trollfaec Military Solutions Inc. (a subsidiary of GUMBO) and were currently keeping them all busy. Heavy rains a week later dealt with mop-up of the vamps but the fall of Tolkeen led to a temporary suspension of the project. That and there was an emergency injunction filed by People for the Ethical Treatment of Undead.

Your off by about 4 years for that one. GUMBO was founded in 109.

[eliakon]

option 2: A horde of wild vampires had been dropped on the Xiticix as a field-test of the new "vampire bombardment" strategy developed by Trollfaec Military Solutions Inc. (a subsidiary of GUMBO) and were currently keeping them all busy. Heavy rains a week later dealt with mop-up of the vamps but the fall of Tolkeen led to a temporary suspension of the project. That and there was an emergency injunction filed by People for the Ethical Treatment of Undead.

Your off by about 4 years for that one. GUMBO was founded in 109.

Okay, so they were time traveling.
Maybe that's why it was canceled...
...funding ran out and they can't reapply until they exist. Stupid temporal rules always messing with the grant money.

<Senior Researcher> "Whoops, that's it call it all off people. We're early."
<XO> "But doc"
<Senior Researcher> "six years early."
<XO> "Awe man." *shouting* "Okay people, that's a wrap pack it up and pack it out. Lets move it people."

[HWalsh]

I'm just sad now. I was actually enjoying this thread's twin brother until it got locked because of people bringing real world stuff in...

*sigh*

Anyway, so it goes without saying that, by the rules of the Xiticix Jericho and his men should all have died. Would that have changed the Tolkeen outcome? No. Would it have overly weakened the CS? No. They actually ended the war with more people than they had when they started. Are there any strategies that Jericho could have used to get out of there in one piece? Not that I can think of.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Well let's see if anyone has a phd in insect behavior.......
Well this wouldn't be the first time the rules were toss out for a good story.

[Eagle]

I'm just sad now. I was actually enjoying this thread's twin brother until it got locked because of people bringing real world stuff in...

*sigh*

Anyway, so it goes without saying that, by the rules of the Xiticix Jericho and his men should all have died. Would that have changed the Tolkeen outcome? No. Would it have overly weakened the CS? No. They actually ended the war with more people than they had when they started. Are there any strategies that Jericho could have used to get out of there in one piece? Not that I can think of.

No one is ever going to accuse Kevin Siembieda of good writing. But I'll at least give him the benefit of the doubt that when he had Jericho's army go into the Xiticix territory, he intended for them to survive and ride to the rescue at the end of the series. So, it was just KS trying to create a sense of drama. He clearly thought he'd found a solution to the Xiticix pheromone problem, and thought "nobody is going to see this coming, this is gonna be so awesome". He seemed to want some sort of American Civil War-style maneuver where people are trudging on foot for hundreds of miles, and suddenly here's Robert E. Lee's army coming out of nowhere to save the day. Of course, with the speed of a SAMAS suit, you could be back home at Chi-Town in like an hour and a half, so there's no way that the Coalition should have been surprised to see him.

[camk4evr]

Actually, the most likely result of what you described would be TOLKEEN getting devoured by the Xitixic (which would, I admit, been an interesting end to the SoT--a draw, with both sides losing the territory to the bugs). After all, under your scenario, the surviving troops under Holmes would've fled, been pursued, and thus taken the swarm straight into the heart of the territory, running right up to the city; the bugs do the exact thing that Holmes' troops did in the original text, but even more savagely, attacking the CS after Tolkeen falls. The entire state of Minnesota becomes a new wasteland, Tolkeen and its inhabitants are destroyed even more utterly than the CS did (no refugees get to get out), and the CS suffers the massive defeat that your loins are aching for.

And that would have been a better end to SoT than Holmes forces attacking Tolkeen from the rear after exiting the Hivelands with combat effective troops.

It should be noted, however, that the xitixic might not realize that humans of Tolkeen are the same species as the humans of the CS since they look so different.

[IGNG]

It should be noted, however, that the xitixic might not realize that humans of Tolkeen are the same species as the humans of the CS since they look so different.

They wouldn't. Its explicitly stated that 'minor cosmetic differences' such as adding spiky bits, removing spikey bits or dabbing on paint make them incapable of recognizing deadboy armor. That being said I suspect that Tolkeen would have just opened up on the bugs and thought about it later.

[Shark_Force]

It should be noted, however, that the xitixic might not realize that humans of Tolkeen are the same species as the humans of the CS since they look so different.

They wouldn't. Its explicitly stated that 'minor cosmetic differences' such as adding spiky bits, removing spikey bits or dabbing on paint make them incapable of recognizing deadboy armor. That being said I suspect that Tolkeen would have just opened up on the bugs and thought about it later.

i consider it more likely that the CS wouldn't live long enough to reach tolkeen in the first place, because someone is gonna fight back, and that's gonna make more and more xiticix show up to keep fighting, even if for some reason they were willing to ignore a source of food right on their doorstep when they have more than enough bugs available to process the food.

[IGNG]

Well yes, there is that.

[HWalsh]

It should be noted, however, that the xitixic might not realize that humans of Tolkeen are the same species as the humans of the CS since they look so different.

They wouldn't. Its explicitly stated that 'minor cosmetic differences' such as adding spiky bits, removing spikey bits or dabbing on paint make them incapable of recognizing deadboy armor. That being said I suspect that Tolkeen would have just opened up on the bugs and thought about it later.

So another plausible ending is that the Xits come out, following Jericho and his ragged and terrified troopers, only to descend ONLY onto the CS troops, Tolkeen realizing the tide has turned instead hunkers down, and the CS gets obliterated... Tolkeen survives... The CS army is reduced to a fraction of its size.

Iiiiinteresting.

[IGNG]

Thats a lot of meta-gaming for several thousand people and tens of thousand of summoned minions to make.

[Freemage]

It should be noted, however, that the xitixic might not realize that humans of Tolkeen are the same species as the humans of the CS since they look so different.

They wouldn't. Its explicitly stated that 'minor cosmetic differences' such as adding spiky bits, removing spikey bits or dabbing on paint make them incapable of recognizing deadboy armor. That being said I suspect that Tolkeen would have just opened up on the bugs and thought about it later.

So, you're saying that all Jericho needed to do, besides setting up the smokescreen, was glue some branches onto the outside of the vehicles his guys were crammed in, and the bugs would no longer recognize them?

[IGNG]

No, they wouldn't decide that everything in dead boy armor on the entire planet needed to die after one shot back at them. They would just think the idiots who glued sticks onto themselves needed to die, after all they are obviously parts of different hives.

[Axelmania]

I'm afraid discussing who had the speed advantage won't get anywhere unless we can get more detail on what bots and vehicles were under Holmes command.

The CS has a couple vehicles (APC and tank) and bot (skull smasher) which have 6000ft 1d6x10 MD lasers which would be very useful in making called shots against TK rifles and wings to lessen the threat of pursuers they were too slow to outrun.

Not sure his much MDC the rifle has. Anyone know if weapons were ever given damage capacity stats?

Next to the TK the longest range I recall is 300ft for a thrown spear.

Tagging an APC doesn't seem that useful. It would seem easy enough to send a grunt out with a mop and bucket after any close encounters.

Whatever the slowest vehicle is (since we can assume all troops without them could ride inside or on top of vehicles) they are probably the most protected ones furthest from the border.

[IGNG]

You do realize that you can miss a called shot right? If you make more than a few you WILL miss one.