What was the CS intended to invoke images of...

[HWalsh]

Most of you are going to read this title and go...

"Nazis... Duh."

Some, however are willing to argue that point... So... Since it was taking over a thread about the Minion Wars... I thought I would bring it here.

-----

So, here are (some of) the places where I feel the books indicate, "Oh yes. The CS are totally supposed to be Rifts Nazis."

Note: I love Nazis as villains. They are probably one of the most legendary villains in history. They are evoked in the Galactic Empire, from Star Wars, the Romulans from Star Trek, they make great comic book villains, they practically birthed the entire First Person Shooter Genre as the perfect humanoids that one could mow down without feeling a drop of guilt... So... For villains you love to hate... Like the CS... Nazis were totally the way to go.

-----

RUE pg 229 calls it out. Erin Tarn makes it pretty clear. The counterpoint to that, of course, is that Erin may be an unreliable narrator. The people arguing against the CS are Nazis position think that Erin is wrong, or at the least biased. Meaning that her writings were put into the book to create a false equivalency and mislead players.

Kevin S. states on RUE 230 that, for most players and GMs, the CS represent, "Goose stepping monsters in human skin who persecute D-Bees and people who choose to believe and live differently than the CS."

I go with the, "intended to be Villains" because even their creator, Kevin S. on that page states that he sees the CS as villains too.

For those wondering "Goose stepping" is a term that is used to describe the way soldiers march in parade formation, but is almost always used exclusively to refer to the Nazi marches through occupied territories during World War II.

Before I go into more books... The CS uniforms, color patterns, and symbology are all heavily influenced by the Nazi party. The only difference is they don't use the main symbol. Which would also make sales of Palladium products difficult in certain countries. I know that personally from my game design background.

There are also things like... Dog Boys... Which, for those that know history, know that dogs had a special place with SS agents.

Erin Tarn again brings up Hitler in CWC pg. 12 and again on pg. 13.

CWC pg. 36 puts a nail in the coffin, in any real attempt to deny the fact with the line:

"Emperor Prosek makes it no secret among his elite, that he has found many of the practices, approaches and world views of the 20th Century Dictator, Adolf Hitler, to be insightful and brilliant."

In fact the word, "Hitler" appears on CWC page 36 a total of 7 times.

The CWC Uniforms on page 54, 55, 82, 85, 179, 182, and 183 are based on Nazi uniforms. They even have the arm band.

Furthermore, the CS, according to RUE, requires that psychics be branded and chipped. They allow businesses to legally ban the presence of psychics and often refuse services to them. They are not cute and cuddly toward their Psychic population (despite what people will try to claim about the Psi-Bat) and this is a direct parallel to certain behaviors.

Numerous other parallels are made as well... Such as the fact that there were CS Concentration Camps in SoT, and the VERY Nazi-esque behavior by the CS.

-----

So that is the first part of my argument that the CS was clearly designs to evoke images of Nazi's during World War II. However... The opposition argues that... No. The CS are actually based on the manga anti-hero "Skull Man" and the Marvel Comics character "Ghost Rider" because of the skull motif and the fact that they aren't 100% portrayed as everyone being totally evil.

-----

The original thread that this branched off of can be found here: http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=153229

[guardiandashi]

oh I 110% agree that the Coalition was supposed to BE the Natzi's from WWII Germany, with the "dbees", mutants, and mages replacing the Jews as the targets of persecution.

to be honest I have been scratching my head on some of the things axel has been claiming recently, in other threads, along with a few other "well they really aren't "that bad" people defending the CS.

No they ARE really that bad, in fact if you reread some of the "history" of the CS, and actually compare it to the history of Europe during the runup to the world wars the story in many ways IS the history of Europe/Germany, just with the names scrubbed off and re cast with "rifts correct" names and factions replacing the "players"

[Shark_Force]

goose stepping isn't a general term referring to marching.

it is a term referring specifically to marching where you sort of kick your legs forward on each step. normal marching is not the same thing at all.

but yeah, the CS are basically rifts nazis, with a few other sources of inspiration from time to time maybe (i would argue there's a touch of soviet russia; germany was not known for human wave tactics, after all, while so far that is pretty much exclusively what we've seen the CS use)

[HWalsh]

goose stepping isn't a general term referring to marching.

it is a term referring specifically to marching where you sort of kick your legs forward on each step. normal marching is not the same thing at all.

but yeah, the CS are basically rifts nazis, with a few other sources of inspiration from time to time maybe (i would argue there's a touch of soviet russia; germany was not known for human wave tactics, after all, while so far that is pretty much exclusively what we've seen the CS use)

Yeah, its a term for a specific form of parade marching. You are correct.

Well the CS tried a version of the blitzkrieg against Tolkeen, it just didn't work.

To detail:
The Blitzkrieg (or Lightning Attack) is designed to work as follows. You first bombard the target (usually using bombs) then move in mechanized troops (tanks and such) before you finally move in infantry and occupation.

The CS planned on trying this at Tolkeen by starting with a nuclear launch, which would have devastated the ground forces and structures, then move in with expendable and mechanized units (Juicers, Borgs, Power Armor, Giant Robots, Skelebots) before rounding with infantry (Deadboys, Psi-Stalkers, and Dog Boys) for occupation.

However since the Tolkeenites had ways to stop the air strike/missile strike (Pretty sure the anti-missile rifts would suck up a Samas just as easily) the effectively neutered the thing that makes a blitzkrieg a blitzkrieg.

[Nekira Sudacne]

There was that one time in an interview where Kevin himself expressed bafflement about the confusion over what the CS were intended to be perceived as. his literal quote was "I made them Nazi's...With ****ing skulls"

In this case, there is no deeper metaphore to be had. They were intended as obvious Nazi analoges with blantant Nazi imagry and skulls on top, and that's exactly how they're meant to be perceived.

[HWalsh]

There was that one time in an interview where Kevin himself expressed bafflement about the confusion over what the CS were intended to be perceived as. his literal quote was "I made them Nazi's...With ****ing skulls"

In this case, there is no deeper metaphore to be had. They were intended as obvious Nazi analoges with blantant Nazi imagry and skulls on top, and that's exactly how they're meant to be perceived.

Wait? Was that an actual quote? ROFLMAO.

[Nightmask]

There was that one time in an interview where Kevin himself expressed bafflement about the confusion over what the CS were intended to be perceived as. his literal quote was "I made them Nazi's...With ****ing skulls"

In this case, there is no deeper metaphore to be had. They were intended as obvious Nazi analoges with blantant Nazi imagry and skulls on top, and that's exactly how they're meant to be perceived.

Yet in spite of all of that there are people who STILL insist otherwise.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nazis... Duh.

[Eagle]

It's Springtime for Prosek...

[Incriptus]

"Nazis... Duh."

they practically birthed the entire First Person Shooter Genre as the perfect humanoids that one could mow down without feeling a drop of guilt

With the intention of avoiding the above.

By first reminding you that the average soldier/citizen is a victim of the high command's propaganda.

Followed by putting you in the unconfortable situation situation where they are now the best defense against the forces of hell.

"If Hell invaded the Coalition State I would make at least a favourable reference to Joseph Preseck in the House of Commons" - Rifts Churchill

Honestly I feel that the intention is to make the player unconfortable and deny them a video game style clear cut villain for the center of the main setting.

[Shark_Force]

"Nazis... Duh."

they practically birthed the entire First Person Shooter Genre as the perfect humanoids that one could mow down without feeling a drop of guilt

With the intention of avoiding the above.

By first reminding you that the average soldier/citizen is a victim of the high command's propaganda.

Followed by putting you in the unconfortable situation situation where they are now the best defense against the forces of hell.

"If Hell invaded the Coalition State I would make at least a favourable reference to Joseph Preseck in the House of Commons" - Rifts Churchill

Honestly I feel that the intention is to make the player unconfortable and deny them a video game style clear cut villain for the center of the main setting.

in this particular case, something like 30% of the CS troops have been explicitly noted as being outright evil. like, not just "good aligned but misguided in a few ways", but actual outright evil. those same numbers listed something like only 10% being actually good i think.

point being, while not every CS soldier is actually evil, an alarmingly high percentage of them are, with their alignment descriptions including statements like "kill an unarmed foe as readily as he would a potential threat or competition", "hurt and kill an innocent without a second thought and for pleasure", or "never kill an innocent, but may harm, harass, or kidnap [an innocent]".

that's uncomfortably high, in my opinion. certainly there will be some CS soldiers who haven't earned their reputation, but there are also a *lot* of CS soldiers who most likely *have* earned their reputation.

[Mack]

in this particular case, something like 30% of the CS troops have been explicitly noted as being outright evil. like, not just "good aligned but misguided in a few ways", but actual outright evil. those same numbers listed something like only 10% being actually good i think.

First, there's: 20% anarchist and evil alignments (CWC p47)
Then, there's: 15% evil (CWC p48)... which leaves only 5% anarchist when combined with the first statement.
So that leaves 80% a good alignment.

Although of all troops, 75-85% are CS fanatics. (CWC p47). So there's plenty of good troops who've bought the government's propaganda, which is an important distinction to make when dealing with CS troops.

[HWalsh]

"Nazis... Duh."

they practically birthed the entire First Person Shooter Genre as the perfect humanoids that one could mow down without feeling a drop of guilt

With the intention of avoiding the above.

By first reminding you that the average soldier/citizen is a victim of the high command's propaganda.

Followed by putting you in the unconfortable situation situation where they are now the best defense against the forces of hell.

"If Hell invaded the Coalition State I would make at least a favourable reference to Joseph Preseck in the House of Commons" - Rifts Churchill

Honestly I feel that the intention is to make the player unconfortable and deny them a video game style clear cut villain for the center of the main setting.

With the statement you quoted, I was referring to the vast array of FPS games where you literally mow down tons of Nazis.

Also... To note... The number of evil ones jumped after SoT by a good bit... Especially if you read that they executed their own for failing to shoot women and children.

[Nightmask]

in this particular case, something like 30% of the CS troops have been explicitly noted as being outright evil. like, not just "good aligned but misguided in a few ways", but actual outright evil. those same numbers listed something like only 10% being actually good i think.

First, there's: 20% anarchist and evil alignments (CWC p47)
Then, there's: 15% evil (CWC p48)... which leaves only 5% anarchist when combined with the first statement.
So that leaves 80% a good alignment.

Although of all troops, 75-85% are CS fanatics. (CWC p47). So there's plenty of good troops who've bought the government's propaganda, which is an important distinction to make when dealing with CS troops.

The only problem with that is you really can't have that much of the population be good when it supports what the CS does, they turn a blind eye to it rather than risk losing the comfy protected lives that they live which drops them out of the Good category.

[Killer Cyborg]

in this particular case, something like 30% of the CS troops have been explicitly noted as being outright evil. like, not just "good aligned but misguided in a few ways", but actual outright evil. those same numbers listed something like only 10% being actually good i think.

First, there's: 20% anarchist and evil alignments (CWC p47)
Then, there's: 15% evil (CWC p48)... which leaves only 5% anarchist when combined with the first statement.
So that leaves 80% a good alignment.

Although of all troops, 75-85% are CS fanatics. (CWC p47). So there's plenty of good troops who've bought the government's propaganda, which is an important distinction to make when dealing with CS troops.

The only problem with that is you really can't have that much of the population be good when it supports what the CS does, they turn a blind eye to it rather than risk losing the comfy protected lives that they live which drops them out of the Good category.

1. 5% are anarchist, 15% are evil, and an unknown number are Unprincipled. The rest are Good.
2. What does the CS do that the good citizens turn a blind eye to?

[glitterboy2098]

Also... To note... The number of evil ones jumped after SoT by a good bit... Especially if you read that they executed their own for failing to shoot women and children.

"It's easy to talk about being moral here when there isn't an ISS ion pistol pointed at your head!"

[Mack]

in this particular case, something like 30% of the CS troops have been explicitly noted as being outright evil. like, not just "good aligned but misguided in a few ways", but actual outright evil. those same numbers listed something like only 10% being actually good i think.

First, there's: 20% anarchist and evil alignments (CWC p47)
Then, there's: 15% evil (CWC p48)... which leaves only 5% anarchist when combined with the first statement.
So that leaves 80% a good alignment.

Although of all troops, 75-85% are CS fanatics. (CWC p47). So there's plenty of good troops who've bought the government's propaganda, which is an important distinction to make when dealing with CS troops.

The only problem with that is you really can't have that much of the population be good when it supports what the CS does, they turn a blind eye to it rather than risk losing the comfy protected lives that they live which drops them out of the Good category.

That's why belief in the propaganda is an important distinction.

[eliakon]

in this particular case, something like 30% of the CS troops have been explicitly noted as being outright evil. like, not just "good aligned but misguided in a few ways", but actual outright evil. those same numbers listed something like only 10% being actually good i think.

First, there's: 20% anarchist and evil alignments (CWC p47)
Then, there's: 15% evil (CWC p48)... which leaves only 5% anarchist when combined with the first statement.
So that leaves 80% a good alignment.

Although of all troops, 75-85% are CS fanatics. (CWC p47). So there's plenty of good troops who've bought the government's propaganda, which is an important distinction to make when dealing with CS troops.

The only problem with that is you really can't have that much of the population be good when it supports what the CS does, they turn a blind eye to it rather than risk losing the comfy protected lives that they live which drops them out of the Good category.

That's why belief in the propaganda is an important distinction.

And why the CS goes to such absurd lengths to keep that propaganda up at all times.
If the propaganda fails, ever, the entire system is pretty much doomed.

[Killer Cyborg]

in this particular case, something like 30% of the CS troops have been explicitly noted as being outright evil. like, not just "good aligned but misguided in a few ways", but actual outright evil. those same numbers listed something like only 10% being actually good i think.

First, there's: 20% anarchist and evil alignments (CWC p47)
Then, there's: 15% evil (CWC p48)... which leaves only 5% anarchist when combined with the first statement.
So that leaves 80% a good alignment.

Although of all troops, 75-85% are CS fanatics. (CWC p47). So there's plenty of good troops who've bought the government's propaganda, which is an important distinction to make when dealing with CS troops.

The only problem with that is you really can't have that much of the population be good when it supports what the CS does, they turn a blind eye to it rather than risk losing the comfy protected lives that they live which drops them out of the Good category.

That's why belief in the propaganda is an important distinction.

And why the CS goes to such absurd lengths to keep that propaganda up at all times.
If the propaganda fails, ever, the entire system is pretty much doomed.

Look at current real-world politics.
Propaganda works pretty darned well, according to the scoreboard.

[Jefffar]

I'm going to take a twist on this one.

The CS certainly is intended to take its cues from totalitarian regimes of earth's past, cheif amoung them Nazi Germany, the CS is not intended to be a representation of them in any way.

Instead the CS is supposed to be the Anti-America as Kevin sees America. A land with no personal freedoms (speech, bear arms, associations, etc). A land that embraces ignorance. A land with a distinct class system. A hereditary dictatorship instead of a democracy. A land in which slavery (Dog Boys) and racisism (D-Bees) is not just rampant, but the official state policy. A land that does not welcome immigrants, but instead leaves them camped in shanty towns on the borders of it's walled cisties (the 'Burbs).

[Axelmania]

Requesting source from Nekira or others for this alleged interview and literal quote. Any wayback archives?

CWC pg. 36 puts a nail in the coffin, in any real attempt to deny the fact with the line:

"Emperor Prosek makes it no secret among his elite, that he has found many of the practices, approaches and world views of the 20th Century Dictator, Adolf Hitler, to be insightful and brilliant."

In fact the word, "Hitler" appears on CWC page 36 a total of 7 times.

"Emperor Prosek acknowledges Hitler was a madman with delusions of grandeur and an insane agenda", for example.

I wonder why you didn't focus on this one.

Finding brilliant/insightful an approach/practise/view held by Hitler says nothing if we don't know what it is.

He adopts the "best" traits of Khan/Caesar/Napoleon/Hitler, mentioned in that order.

For anyone willing to admit these men all had positive traits (like being able to compel a powerful force to achieve goals) then ranking general virtues like that as 'best' in comparisonto their deplorable ones says nothing about a person except they are open-minded and not blind to learning from history's villains.

[Eagle]

I think there are two factors that make the CS more "moral" than the Nazis (not that that's hard to do).

First, some of the CS' propaganda is actually true. Imagine if 1 out of 10 Jews in 1930s and 40s Europe was actually a man-eating monster in disguise. Suddenly wanting to round them up in camps would make a lot more sense. The Nazis hated the Jews because of simple racism. The CS actually has a pretty good reason for hating magic users. Remember how they tried to destroy Chi-Town a hundred years ago, and then how they kidnapped the Emperor's wife and held her hostage for several years?

Second, with D-Bees you're talking about non-humans. Regardless of any sort of Star Trek pseudo-morality where we like to think that we'd be open and accepting of any sort of peaceful sentient creatures, humans don't operate that way. We didn't evolve that way. You think that in real life you'd have any sort of empathy with a cactus person? Even if you intellectually could recognize that it was a thinking creature, you don't have the instinctual recognition that this is another being just like you. You're more closely related to a mouse than you are to a D-Bee. Sure, the Coalition isn't particularly open minded about things, and they don't have any innate respect for all living creatures, but is it really that different from us today? Think about that next time you go to a dolphin show. Trying to exterminate other humans requires crossing a greater moral event horizon than shooting a bunch of purple tentacle dudes who don't have faces.

[IGNG]

Second, with D-Bees you're talking about non-humans.

That makes it more understandable. I'm not sure it makes it more forgivable.

[HWalsh]

I think there are two factors that make the CS more "moral" than the Nazis (not that that's hard to do).

First, some of the CS' propaganda is actually true.

Some. A very tiny bit. They also way over exaggerate threat levels. We know they do. How do we know they do? Lazlo, Tolkeen, etc. Tolkeen remember that place? It wasn't destroyed by "evil D-Bees" I can assure you of that. In fact they exaggerate so much that when we see any other place... Lazlo, Tolkeen, Merctown, heck the NGR... We can outright call them bold faced liars.

Imagine if 1 out of 10 Jews in 1930s and 40s Europe was actually a man-eating monster in disguise.

Save for its not 1 out of 10 D-Bees. Not even close. Not even in the ballpark. I'd say the number of murderous monsters in the CS is the same as it is out of the CS.

Suddenly wanting to round them up in camps would make a lot more sense.

No. No it doesn't.

The Nazis hated the Jews because of simple racism. The CS actually has a pretty good reason for hating magic users.

No they don't.

Remember how they tried to destroy Chi-Town a hundred years ago, and then how they kidnapped the Emperor's wife and held her hostage for several years?

Remember how people with guns also tried to destroy Chi-Town, and every other city in Rifts? Because they do. All the time. Remember how non-Magic Using bandits kidnap and hold people hostage? Yeah. See Magic is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. It is literally hating them because they use a tool that Prosek doesn't like. That is pretty much it.

Second, with D-Bees you're talking about non-humans. Regardless of any sort of Star Trek pseudo-morality where we like to think that we'd be open and accepting of any sort of peaceful sentient creatures, humans don't operate that way.

Negative. I think that way. If you are a thinking, compassionate, being with the capability of communication I'm pretty accepting. You may not be. I darn sure am. Why? Because I am open minded.

We didn't evolve that way.

Evolution has nothing to do with it. That is pure nurture over nature.

You think that in real life you'd have any sort of empathy with a cactus person? Even if you intellectually could recognize that it was a thinking creature, you don't have the instinctual recognition that this is another being just like you.

Pretty sure I would.

You're more closely related to a mouse than you are to a D-Bee.

Oh really now? What is the difference between a human and say... An Elf? The Elf lives longer and as pointy ears. That wholly depends on the type of D-Bee. How about some of the others? Depends. Most of the "D-Bees" look human enough and have similar enough drives that they aren't alien creatures that one cannot empathize with.

Sure, the Coalition isn't particularly open minded about things, and they don't have any innate respect for all living creatures, but is it really that different from us today?

Yes. Yes they are far different. Here's the thing... A lot of D-Bees are just like us. They have 2 eyes, 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 hands they speak the same language as us and are SDC beings. In fact... That is pretty much over 80% of D-Bees. Most of them are humans... With a different skin color and maybe slightly different eyes or ears. Not all of them are inhuman creatures. I would not be terrified and wet my pants if I came across Tinkerbell and her fairy friends living in a small mushroom town on the edge of my city... I darn sure wouldn't rush home, build a flamethrower, then come back to barbecue them. The CS would.

The CS is very much like the 1900's... "They don't look exactly like humans, they aren't human, we can't treat them like humans!"

You know... There were these guys... Who said the same thing... Only they were talking about skin color...

Think about that next time you go to a dolphin show. Trying to exterminate other humans requires crossing a greater moral event horizon than shooting a bunch of purple tentacle dudes who don't have faces.

If a Dolphin swam up to me and said, "Hi! My name is Dory the Dolphin and I'd like to be your friend!"

My first reaction isn't going to be to stab Dory in the face. Though it might be to call a hospital because it is possible I suffered some kind of medical crisis. However, I'm not going to want to kill them because they don't look like me.

[Eagle]

Second, with D-Bees you're talking about non-humans.

That makes it more understandable. I'm not sure it makes it more forgivable.

Doesn't have to make it right. Just makes them better than Nazis.

[Axelmania]

... A lot of D-Bees are just like us. They have 2 eyes, 2 legs, 2 arms, 2 hands they speak the same language as us and are SDC beings. In fact... That is pretty much over 80% of D-Bees. Most of them are humans... With a different skin color and maybe slightly different eyes or ears. .

I am very interested in knowing where this 80% came from.

]

If a Dolphin swam up to me and said, "Hi! My name is Dory the Dolphin and I'd like to be your friend!"

My first reaction isn't going to be to stab Dory in the face. Though it might be to call a hospital because it is possible I suffered some kind of medical crisis. However, I'm not going to want to kill them because they don't look like me.

The CS' world is not yours. How you would act in first encounter is irrelevant.

Humanity had centuries of first encounters to pet the dolphin before the coalition formed. Plenty of dolphins initiating violence to the point that engaging them prophylactically seems wise.

[Killer Cyborg]

If a Dolphin swam up to me and said, "Hi! My name is Dory the Dolphin and I'd like to be your friend!"
My first reaction isn't going to be to stab Dory in the face.

One never knows how one will react to the utterly strange and/or unnatural.
"If a flower ever spoke to a man, that man would know terror."
-Alamo Joe Rogan

And your reaction might be particularly different if the last dolphin to say that to you also murdered your family.

[Eagle]

If a Dolphin swam up to me and said, "Hi! My name is Dory the Dolphin and I'd like to be your friend!"
My first reaction isn't going to be to stab Dory in the face.

One never knows how one will react to the utterly strange and/or unnatural.
"If a flower ever spoke to a man, that man would know terror."
-Alamo Joe Rogan

When the world isn't the same as our minds believe, then we are in a nightmare. And nothing is worse than a nightmare. Except one you can't wake up from.

I love that show.

[Axelmania]

One never knows how one will react to the utterly strange and/or unnatural.
"If a flower ever spoke to a man, that man would know terror."
-Alamo Joe Rogan

I have a horror of drafts. I suppose you wouldn't have a screen for me?

[IGNG]

Second, with D-Bees you're talking about non-humans.

That makes it more understandable. I'm not sure it makes it more forgivable.

Doesn't have to make it right. Just makes them better than Nazis.

But it doesn't. It means that it is easier to understand.

A proof that given 2+x=4 then x=2 and a proof that the square root of 2 is irrational are both math. The first one isn't any less math because it doesn't even take conscious effort for me to figure it out.

This is morality not engineering. The KISS principle does decide the winner.

[Killer Cyborg]

One never knows how one will react to the utterly strange and/or unnatural.
"If a flower ever spoke to a man, that man would know terror."
-Alamo Joe Rogan

I have a horror of drafts. I suppose you wouldn't have a screen for me?

[HWalsh]

I am very interested in knowing where this 80% came from.

Logic.

D-bee is a term for "humanoid beings from another dimension or world."

(D-Bees of North America pg. 7)

Also on page 7:

"Less than 25% have MDC bodies."

Meaning 75% of them are SDC.

"Most D-Bees have human-like intelligence and, usually, human-like emotions, needs, and desires."

Also page 7:
"With only a few exceptions, they stand upright on two legs, have a single head, and a basic human-like appearance."

Right there outlines where the 80% comes from. Yes, it is a "non-factual numeric" I'll admit that. It was used as an expression. The more precise term is, "ALL BUT A FEW EXCEPTIONS" are just like us and only 25% of ALL D-Bees are not normal SDC Humanoids.

These are not "rampaging monsters" that the CS claims. The CS lies. Period.

The average D-Bee? You want to see what it actually looks like? Watch a few episodes of Deep Space Nine on Netflix. That is about the diversity you're going to see. Sure, you'll see the rare monstrous ones... For the most part you're getting the Star Wars, Star Trek, and Babylon 5 treatment. That treatment being, "Oh look, this race is human, if they had a weird hairline." "This is a human with forehead ridges." "This is a human with pointed ears." "This is a human with big rounded ears and seems to be incredibly greedy."

So, yes, you'll run into the rare, "Raaagh! I will rip your head off and kill your family!"

Sure... It happens.

However you wouldn't develop a hatred for all D-Bees most likely, just that specific one, because... As people are quick to point out... We as a "species" are visually based and there is a HUGE visual difference between a Xiticix and an Elf.

[Saitou Hajime]

in this particular case, something like 30% of the CS troops have been explicitly noted as being outright evil. like, not just "good aligned but misguided in a few ways", but actual outright evil. those same numbers listed something like only 10% being actually good i think.

First, there's: 20% anarchist and evil alignments (CWC p47)
Then, there's: 15% evil (CWC p48)... which leaves only 5% anarchist when combined with the first statement.
So that leaves 80% a good alignment.

Although of all troops, 75-85% are CS fanatics. (CWC p47). So there's plenty of good troops who've bought the government's propaganda, which is an important distinction to make when dealing with CS troops.

And there lays the rub, because Fanatics have a vast different of opinion of what Innocent means than rational beings.

[Nightmask]

Second, with D-Bees you're talking about non-humans.

That makes it more understandable. I'm not sure it makes it more forgivable.

Doesn't have to make it right. Just makes them better than Nazis.

There is nothing that makes the CS better than the Nazis. NOTHING. When you try and blame all the world's ills on a particular group that is not in fact responsible for them at all and say that that makes it acceptable to murder them all that makes you no better than the Nazis. The CS routinely exterminates entire villages leaving not a man, woman, or child alive for no other reason than not being humans, that's what one can expect from the Nazis who classed entire groups as not really being human and that good enough reason to kill them all. 'Some of them might be evil monsters so we should just kill them all to be sure' is definitely not going to make you better than the Nazis it's going to make you at least as bad if not worse.

Seriously, there is no argument that's going to successfully make the CS out to be better than the Nazis, unless you're arguing that they were doing a better job being evil.

[HWalsh]

I'm going to give you a good example of what a "Good" CS soldier would do during SoT:

There is a village. Outside of CS "territory" that has nothing to do with Tolkeen. They do live in Tolkeen territory though and members of the village are serving the Tolkeen effort on the front lines.

Read: Are not in the village at the moment.

The village has around 50 people in it.

There are about 4 "Magic Users" there who mostly just help the village out. They have some MD weapons and even 2-3 sets of MDC armor. These villagers are peaceful and more or less minding their own business.

A CS squad rolls up into the village and the Dog Boys start barking. They can smell magic from a nearby old woman. They draw their MD weapons and go after her causing her to defended herself.

She manages to kill 1 Dog Boy before they turn her head into vapor.

The CS rounds up the remaining 49 people. Men, women, and children. They aren't fighting back.

CS soldiers rush up and torch the houses leaving nothing but scorched Earth. One of the village men, in non MDC armor charges a CS soldier, howling in outrage. The soldier doesn't hesitate as he turns the man into nothing but a smear with a blast from his laser rifle.

The CS soldiers then unload on the villagers, wiping them out.

One CS soldier hears something from a building. Sniffling. He moves to investigate and finds a young mother cradling a small girl. The child can't be older than 5-6.

The mother quietly begs for him to let her go. He swallows hard and nods. The mother turns to run carrying the girl when a bolt of plasma erases them from existence.

The CS soldier turns to see three of his squad mates. Two of them grab him and drag him out before the squad, explaining that they saw him showing sympathy to "the enemy."

There is a brief discussion before the squad turns and fires at the sympathetic soldier. He doesn't last much longer even with his Deadboy armor. The official report will say that he was killed fighting D-Bees and that he died with honor.

-----

That is EXACTLY the kind of stuff (right down to the execution) that SoT says the CS does. If you can look at that and claim that you'd let ANY PC with a good alignment slide when that kind of thing becomes a common event then I don't think you understand how alignment works.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Don't forget the summoning demons and enslaving creatures , because that what morally right folks do..............Not wait that was tolkeen, but hey if the CS are nazis then FQ are nazis with "free speech and education" , which everybody turns a blind eye to them for some reason

[Jefffar]

If you want to be morally relativist, the CS leadership is worse than the Nazi Leadership. Hitler, as horribly as he was, seems to have truly believed much of his message.

Prosek has cynically evaluated Hitler's methodology and adapted it for political gain. He knows that the majority of DBees and magic users are no threat to humanity. He knows his policies result in the deaths of tens of thousands of not millions of innocents. Yet he persists.

[HWalsh]

Don't forget the summoning demons and enslaving creatures , because that what morally right folks do..............Not wait that was tolkeen, but hey if the CS are nazis then FQ are nazis with "free speech and education" , which everybody turns a blind eye to them for some reason

FQ doesn't go out of their way to slaughter people not inside of their borders.

However, let's address the elephant in the room here. The Pro-CS faction likes to bring up the "Summoning demons" and "Enslaving creatures."

That... Isn't accurate.

While I am sure there were some shifters... That wasn't Tolkeen's MO. Did Tolkeen summon the Daemonix? No. Tolkeen sought out a demonic race enslaved by another demonic race, brought them back, then set them free. Once they were free Tolkeen asked them to help them. The Daemonix, never having been asked before, were overjoyed and agreed. They were paid, they were offered a choice, and they were given material items. That isn't slavery.

Now, I again state, no matter what people try to say... The attack on Tolkeen was, again, unprovoked.

Look at what really happened.

In 88 PA, Tolkeen's king dies. The new king is elected, because of the AGGRESSION OF THE COALITION STATES they elect a militant king.

In 101 PA, Spies report to the CS that King Creed is building fortifications and gathering artifacts for war with the CS. The CS puts them at the top of the hit list.

In 103 PA, The CS starts testing new weapons by attacking people in Tolkeen's territory. These are the Skeletal Raiders. Tolkeen figures out that these are new CS weapons. Meaning that the CS is already committing acts of war. The CS then gathers a massive Tolkeen Strike force in Tolkeen territory under false accusations that Tolkeen is harboring terrorists. This is the part where the CS stepped over all bounds and lost any claim to any degree of moral ground.

As it has been pointed out the CS has more Dog Boys than Tolkeen has defenders. There is no way for Tolkeen to win in a war under normal means. So... Yes. Tolkeen, reacting out of fear, frees then makes a deal with the Daemonix. Their alternative was to abandon their city and let the CS have whatever they want.

Of course the Pro-CS side says that is exactly what they should have done and thus it was Tolkeen's fault for the war.

Here is my problem with that line of thought... It is the same exact line of thought used by people who abuse their spouses...
"This is all your fault, I wouldn't beat you if you didn't make me mad."

Its blaming the victim and it isn't going to fly.

In 104 PA, General Chaulk, without provocation, or even authorization, launches a three day constant artillery assault at Tolkeen. Tolkeen opens a portal, sucks up the missiles, and launches a swift counter attack.

Now... I should state this... This wasn't an accident. It states, in the book, that Prosek knew that Chaulk would do something like this when he sent him there. This way, however, he had plausible deniability. So, again, Prosek intentionally set the war into motion. This was an unprovoked attack planned by the manipulative and extremely evil Megalomaniac Karl Prosek.

Tolkeen counter attacks and tears apart the CS forces that had been bombarding them for three days in an unprovoked attack. Of the 85,000 troops 83,511 are slaughtered. 1,489 humans survive.

The CS takes advantage of this and lies to its people. The CS claims that Chaulk was lured to the gates of Tolkeen under a banner of peace and slaughtered. The CS knows this isn't true. The CS high command says it anyway because, if they told the truth, they wouldn't have public support for the war.

This is part II of the CS losing any possible claim to high ground. They manipulate a war with Tolkeen, then after Tolkeen rightfully defends itself from an unprovoked three day bombardment, says, "Nope! They lured Chalk in! He was a hero! Those evil magic users lured him in and ambushed him and killed all of them! We needs to kill them!"

If the CS weren't one of the most sick and evil governments I have ever seen in a game (Kudos to Kevin S. on that, as he really did make one of the best villains ever when he created these guys.) in my life they could have backed out of the war. They could have said:

"General Chaulk suffered a nervous breakdown and launched an attack on Tolkeen without provocation. Tolkeen defended itself. We cannot blame them for their act of self-defense and wish to offer our sincerest apologies and open a hand toward them in the name of peace so that incidents, like this, will not happen in the future."

Of course the CS doesn't do that.

Instead, in 105 PA, Prosek declares the start of an expansionist crusade of conquest known as the Campaign of Unity. Tolkeen must fall.

-----

So yes. Tolkeen may have shifters who summoned monsters. They may have made a deal with a demonic race. However, at the end of the day, all they were doing were trying to defend their home against a hostile invader. They didn't attack civilians, the CS did. They didn't invade someone else's land, the CS did. It can be spun all people want, but at the end of the day, Tolkeen was perfectly justified in all of the actions it took. The CS? Clearly was not.

If the CS was justified... There would have been no reason to lie about it... And they did.

[taalismn]

Always though the CS's adaptation of death's head imagery was more to intimidate -humans- than the real scourges from the Rifts.
(My favorite turnabout of this trope was a Judge Dredd/Batman crossover where the Scraecrow fear-gases Judge Deth...and we get to see Deth's nightmares..Carebears and MLP....but let's face it, fascist stormtroopers in pink bunny suits does NOT make for a visually sellable RPG unless you're marketing to the crack market).

[HWalsh]

Always though the CS's adaptation of death's head imagery was more to intimidate -humans- than the real scourges from the Rifts.
(My favorite turnabout of this trope was a Judge Dredd/Batman crossover where the Scraecrow fear-gases Judge Deth...and we get to see Deth's nightmares..Carebears and MLP....but let's face it, fascist stormtroopers in pink bunny suits does NOT make for a visually sellable RPG unless you're marketing to the crack market).

It is really because Prosek is an insecure teenager... "I want to show how original I am! All of my clothes will be black... Black with skulls! Then I will totally listen to music that talks about dark things like death and bleakness... Yeah... I'll be a totally non-conformist just like all of my friends."

[eliakon]

Don't forget the summoning demons and enslaving creatures , because that what morally right folks do..............Not wait that was tolkeen, but hey if the CS are nazis then FQ are nazis with "free speech and education" , which everybody turns a blind eye to them for some reason

FQ doesn't go out of their way to slaughter people not inside of their borders.

However, let's address the elephant in the room here. The Pro-CS faction likes to bring up the "Summoning demons" and "Enslaving creatures."

That... Isn't accurate.

While I am sure there were some shifters... That wasn't Tolkeen's MO. Did Tolkeen summon the Daemonix? No. Tolkeen sought out a demonic race enslaved by another demonic race, brought them back, then set them free. Once they were free Tolkeen asked them to help them. The Daemonix, never having been asked before, were overjoyed and agreed. They were paid, they were offered a choice, and they were given material items. That isn't slavery.

Now, I again state, no matter what people try to say... The attack on Tolkeen was, again, unprovoked.

Look at what really happened.

In 88 PA, Tolkeen's king dies. The new king is elected, because of the AGGRESSION OF THE COALITION STATES they elect a militant king.

In 101 PA, Spies report to the CS that King Creed is building fortifications and gathering artifacts for war with the CS. The CS puts them at the top of the hit list.

In 103 PA, The CS starts testing new weapons by attacking people in Tolkeen's territory. These are the Skeletal Raiders. Tolkeen figures out that these are new CS weapons. Meaning that the CS is already committing acts of war. The CS then gathers a massive Tolkeen Strike force in Tolkeen territory under false accusations that Tolkeen is harboring terrorists. This is the part where the CS stepped over all bounds and lost any claim to any degree of moral ground.

Lets stop here and look at that some more.
The CS has a new suite of weapons systems and armor.
And how do they test them? The go into a neighboring country and start killing its civilians and burning down their towns slaughtering the inhabitants including the children and babies.
Just to test their newest weapons.
That pretty much right there puts the CS over the moral event horizon into full on irredeemably evil territory.
When your government tests weapons on babies then sorry, your full blown Evil. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 credits go directly to Muahahahaha. E V I L. The individuals that make up the empire might be deluded good people that are being tricked. But the CS itself is purely Evil, as is its leadership. And lets be 100% honest. The good people are tricked. Because you can not be good and support the goals and methods of the CS. There is nothing, no way, period, to say your good AND to say 'but its okay to go murder babies to test new weapons.' And that is what the CS does. There is no way to spin it or justify it. The CS point blank in black and white done did that.

Spoiler:

As it has been pointed out the CS has more Dog Boys than Tolkeen has defenders. There is no way for Tolkeen to win in a war under normal means. So... Yes. Tolkeen, reacting out of fear, frees then makes a deal with the Daemonix. Their alternative was to abandon their city and let the CS have whatever they want.

Of course the Pro-CS side says that is exactly what they should have done and thus it was Tolkeen's fault for the war.

Here is my problem with that line of thought... It is the same exact line of thought used by people who abuse their spouses...
"This is all your fault, I wouldn't beat you if you didn't make me mad."

Its blaming the victim and it isn't going to fly.

In 104 PA, General Chaulk, without provocation, or even authorization, launches a three day constant artillery assault at Tolkeen. Tolkeen opens a portal, sucks up the missiles, and launches a swift counter attack.

Now... I should state this... This wasn't an accident. It states, in the book, that Prosek knew that Chaulk would do something like this when he sent him there. This way, however, he had plausible deniability. So, again, Prosek intentionally set the war into motion. This was an unprovoked attack planned by the manipulative and extremely evil Megalomaniac Karl Prosek.

Tolkeen counter attacks and tears apart the CS forces that had been bombarding them for three days in an unprovoked attack. Of the 85,000 troops 83,511 are slaughtered. 1,489 humans survive.

The CS takes advantage of this and lies to its people. The CS claims that Chaulk was lured to the gates of Tolkeen under a banner of peace and slaughtered. The CS knows this isn't true. The CS high command says it anyway because, if they told the truth, they wouldn't have public support for the war.

This is part II of the CS losing any possible claim to high ground. They manipulate a war with Tolkeen, then after Tolkeen rightfully defends itself from an unprovoked three day bombardment, says, "Nope! They lured Chalk in! He was a hero! Those evil magic users lured him in and ambushed him and killed all of them! We needs to kill them!"

If the CS weren't one of the most sick and evil governments I have ever seen in a game (Kudos to Kevin S. on that, as he really did make one of the best villains ever when he created these guys.) in my life they could have backed out of the war. They could have said:

"General Chaulk suffered a nervous breakdown and launched an attack on Tolkeen without provocation. Tolkeen defended itself. We cannot blame them for their act of self-defense and wish to offer our sincerest apologies and open a hand toward them in the name of peace so that incidents, like this, will not happen in the future."

Of course the CS doesn't do that.

Instead, in 105 PA, Prosek declares the start of an expansionist crusade of conquest known as the Campaign of Unity. Tolkeen must fall.

-----

So yes. Tolkeen may have shifters who summoned monsters. They may have made a deal with a demonic race. However, at the end of the day, all they were doing were trying to defend their home against a hostile invader. They didn't attack civilians, the CS did. They didn't invade someone else's land, the CS did. It can be spun all people want, but at the end of the day, Tolkeen was perfectly justified in all of the actions it took. The CS? Clearly was not.

If the CS was justified... There would have been no reason to lie about it... And they did.

[Jefffar]

Time for a little break.

In the meantime, keep the politics out of the game forums.

Thanks.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Let's see
Occult rituals .....no
Breeding a master race......no
Gathering religious relics........no
Black uniforms.....yes
Well if this is the litmus test, then a bunch of non humans could run around in bed sheets and call them klansmen or ghosts. Then I guess they are

[HWalsh]

Let's see
Occult rituals .....no
Breeding a master race......no
Gathering religious relics........no
Black uniforms.....yes
Well if this is the litmus test, then a bunch of non humans could run around in bed sheets and call them klansmen or ghosts. Then I guess they are

Occult rituals... no.

Breeding a master race... Yes.

The CS are human supremacists and are obsessed with the idea of human supremacy. Even things such as human psychics are tagged and marked and are second class citizens. They discourage psychics to breed, and in some iterations of books have indicated that it is illegal for a psychic to mate with a "human" for fear of polluting the gene pool.

Gathering religious relics... Sort of yes.

They don't gather religious relics, they do gather pre-cataclysm technology and history though and do whatever they can to keep them out of the hands of anyone else. This is up to, and including, faking the burning of their own library to stop even their own citizens from accessing that information. They also gather, and destroy, any alien technology or magical artifacts they can get their hands on.

Black uniforms... Yes.

-----

You missed some important parts...

They believe that genocide of races that they deem "lesser" is justified.

They believe that they have claim to the world by right of being "human."

They believe in destroying anyone with religious beliefs that differ from their own. In this case anyone who practices magic.

That is only the tip of the iceberg.

[Library Ogre]

So that is the first part of my argument that the CS was clearly designs to evoke images of Nazi's during World War II. However... The opposition argues that... No. The CS are actually based on the manga anti-hero "Skull Man" and the Marvel Comics character "Ghost Rider" because of the skull motif and the fact that they aren't 100% portrayed as everyone being totally evil.

In 25 years of exposure to Rifts material, this is the first I have ever heard of Skull Man, and never heard an argument for them being linked to Ghost Rider. I've heard varying versions of "The CS isn't totally evil", a number of which are indistinguishable from "The Nazis aren't ALL bad", but linking them to Skull Man or Ghost Rider is completely novel in my experience.

[Eagle]

Trying to keep this as non-political as possible, while still addressing the topic.

Nations have started wars under less-than-truthful pretenses throughout history. The Coalition does this, and the Nazis did it, but they're hardly alone in that. They join a long list of nations that have done so, a list that includes virtually every nation that ever existed. We can say "starting an unprovoked war is bad", but that isn't what made the Nazis the arch-villains of the 20th century.

Murdering entire villages that have been found to harbor potentially dangerous enemies is not moral, but that's a pretty clear reference to the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam. Or just watch Apocalypse Now, the scene where the helicopters come flying into the village. I'm surprised the Coalition commander didn't say "I love the smell of napalm in the morning".

So while the Coalition certainly isn't perfect, and are clearly inspired by the Nazis in a lot of ways (I mean, the main book says exactly that), a lot of the bad things that they've done in war are things that have been done by a bunch of non-Nazi countries in the last 50 years.

[IGNG]

Murdering entire villages that have been found to harbor potentially dangerous enemies is not moral, but that's a pretty clear reference to the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam.

Its not what happend but the reaction to it. In the CS the people perpetrating the My Lai Massacre get medals for their 'dedication to the cause' and the crew of the helicopter get executed for 'aiding the enemy'. There is no follow up investigation or media coverage.

Did the 1970s court martial panel **** it up by the numbers? Yes. (I'll spare you the rant as to why)

Also I really hate the mindset of well so one else did something bad once so its fine.

[HWalsh]

Trying to keep this as non-political as possible, while still addressing the topic.

Nations have started wars under less-than-truthful pretenses throughout history. The Coalition does this, and the Nazis did it, but they're hardly alone in that. They join a long list of nations that have done so, a list that includes virtually every nation that ever existed. We can say "starting an unprovoked war is bad", but that isn't what made the Nazis the arch-villains of the 20th century.

Murdering entire villages that have been found to harbor potentially dangerous enemies is not moral, but that's a pretty clear reference to the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam. Or just watch Apocalypse Now, the scene where the helicopters come flying into the village. I'm surprised the Coalition commander didn't say "I love the smell of napalm in the morning".

So while the Coalition certainly isn't perfect, and are clearly inspired by the Nazis in a lot of ways (I mean, the main book says exactly that), a lot of the bad things that they've done in war are things that have been done by a bunch of non-Nazi countries in the last 50 years.

That isn't what happened though. We know the CS executed women and children and then would execute their own if they refused to do so or if they hesitated.

The CS did things in the Tolkeen war alone that were straight out of Baron Von Evil's playbook. I'm not kidding, they straight up went supervillain.

If the CS didn't have their propaganda machine I am 100% certain the people of the CS would have overthrown Prosek for being a completely evil psychopath. I don't get how CS soldiers don't realize what is going on the first time they are on patrol. Then again, they aren't taught to think, or read, so they probably never learned to critically think or form logical conclusions either.

[Freemage]

Murdering entire villages that have been found to harbor potentially dangerous enemies is not moral, but that's a pretty clear reference to the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam.

Its not what happend but the reaction to it. In the CS the people perpetrating the My Lai Massacre get medals for their 'dedication to the cause' and the crew of the helicopter get executed for 'aiding the enemy'. There is no follow up investigation or media coverage.

Did the 1970s court martial panel **** it up by the numbers? Yes. (I'll spare you the rant as to why)

Also I really hate the mindset of well so one else did something bad once so its fine.

So it's the equivalent of the My Lai Massacre when it's committed by a fascist state (ie, one in total control of the media)?

And I don't think Eagle was suggesting 'it's fine' just because there's historical precedence. Rather, he was pointing out that this particular bad thing is unfortunately a fairly common thing in human warfare; the concentration camps, on the other hand, are pretty unique in that respect, with only a single strong historical reference (the next closest would be the Siberian political prison camps, the re-education camps of the North Vietnamese, and of course, the U.S. internment camps for the Japanese; as horrid as all of those were, none of them matched Germany's camps, nor the "Final Solution", for unadulterated evil).

Now, the big question is, how high up the chain of command did knowledge of the CS camps go? If it's all the way to Prosek, then the case is closed. If it was a general acting in what he believed the Emperor wanted, but acting on his own authority, only, then... things get a bit muddier. (One can talk reasonably about the responsibility of the leader's rhetoric on his follower's decisions, but that still leaves open the possibility that Prosek himself would've recoiled if he'd been presented with a plan for the camps-as-such.)

HWalsh: What you have to recognize is how thorough the propaganda machine is. You say, "women and children", but the soldiers in question probably have been shown videos of seemingly innocent women and children transforming into demonic horrors and running amok. To that mindset, once the Dogboys tag a target, lethal force is justified. And so is executing a potentially treasonous soldier by summary execution.*

*: To be clear, I'm speaking here only of the mindset of the frontline grunts. The high command damn well has to know by now that there's more to it than that, and they deliberately keep that information from the grunts in order to keep them from developing sympathies for the regime's victims. But controlling information is a key part of how you get a good person to do evil things, and not even know that that's what they are doing.

[HWalsh]

Murdering entire villages that have been found to harbor potentially dangerous enemies is not moral, but that's a pretty clear reference to the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam.

Its not what happend but the reaction to it. In the CS the people perpetrating the My Lai Massacre get medals for their 'dedication to the cause' and the crew of the helicopter get executed for 'aiding the enemy'. There is no follow up investigation or media coverage.

Did the 1970s court martial panel **** it up by the numbers? Yes. (I'll spare you the rant as to why)

Also I really hate the mindset of well so one else did something bad once so its fine.

So it's the equivalent of the My Lai Massacre when it's committed by a fascist state (ie, one in total control of the media)?

And I don't think Eagle was suggesting 'it's fine' just because there's historical precedence. Rather, he was pointing out that this particular bad thing is unfortunately a fairly common thing in human warfare; the concentration camps, on the other hand, are pretty unique in that respect, with only a single strong historical reference (the next closest would be the Siberian political prison camps, the re-education camps of the North Vietnamese, and of course, the U.S. internment camps for the Japanese; as horrid as all of those were, none of them matched Germany's camps, nor the "Final Solution", for unadulterated evil).

Now, the big question is, how high up the chain of command did knowledge of the CS camps go? If it's all the way to Prosek, then the case is closed. If it was a general acting in what he believed the Emperor wanted, but acting on his own authority, only, then... things get a bit muddier. (One can talk reasonably about the responsibility of the leader's rhetoric on his follower's decisions, but that still leaves open the possibility that Prosek himself would've recoiled if he'd been presented with a plan for the camps-as-such.)

HWalsh: What you have to recognize is how thorough the propaganda machine is. You say, "women and children", but the soldiers in question probably have been shown videos of seemingly innocent women and children transforming into demonic horrors and running amok. To that mindset, once the Dogboys tag a target, lethal force is justified. And so is executing a potentially treasonous soldier by summary execution.*

*: To be clear, I'm speaking here only of the mindset of the frontline grunts. The high command damn well has to know by now that there's more to it than that, and they deliberately keep that information from the grunts in order to keep them from developing sympathies for the regime's victims. But controlling information is a key part of how you get a good person to do evil things, and not even know that that's what they are doing.

This isn't Dogboys tagging a target. These were non-magical women and children. We are told, numerous times, that the CS grunts are aware that the enemies pose no threat.

Prosek, we 100% know is evil. I mean his alignment is diabolic. He's an insane megalomaniacal psychopath.