Minion Wars questions

[Killjoy]

So I dont have the Megaverse in flames but I have the NG books after. My question is was there a book I missed? or was the crossover having no real effects on the Rifts universe? I was really hoping to see what would happen to the alliance formed from this.

[Axelmania]

Megaverse.in Flames, being a rifts world book, I think focuses the most in how the minion war affects rifts earth.

Dimensional Outbreak I think focuses in how it affects the Three Galaxies, Armageddon Unlimited.in how it affects HU.

[HWalsh]

Killjoy,

MiF doesn't say how the war ends. Heroes of Humanity maybe? I don't have HoH yet, and refuse to pick it up, unless there are significant changes to North America via the metaplot.

[Killjoy]

damm, I was really hoping that something more came of the minion wars and the cs states.

[HWalsh]

damm, I was really hoping that something more came of the minion wars and the cs states.

I'm so frustrated with the exceptionally slow metaplot advancement and my dissatisfaction with the, in my opinion, unfair favoritism toward the CS that I'm considering swearing off buying any new Rifts books until the CS, in the main metaplot, suffers a severe setback that dramatically weakens them and reduces their military might to a realistic number.

[glitterboy2098]

Heroes of Humanity goes into how the CS is responding to the Demon invasion from MiF.

the upcoming Heroes of Humanity: Arsenal includes all the new gear the CS is rushing into use to help fight it, and secrets of the Coalition States: the disavowed looks to be a 'black ops' installment for the conflict, with details on their covert operations past and present.

the rifts side of the Minion wars has gone hot with MiF, and PB seems to be treating it a bit like the SoT as a new source of metaplot.. though without the semi-railroad storyline so far. at least for the North America area. it is more that new books going forward now have the Minion War info from MiF to build off of for sub-plots and story-hooks.

[kaid]

Killjoy,

MiF doesn't say how the war ends. Heroes of Humanity maybe? I don't have HoH yet, and refuse to pick it up, unless there are significant changes to North America via the metaplot.

Megaverse in flames sets up what is about to happen on rifts earth and heroes of humanity covers the start up of the invasion it is basically the opening weeks/month of the action where the powers in the US see what is happening and the CS lurches into a call for all out war vs demons.

[HWalsh]

Killjoy,

MiF doesn't say how the war ends. Heroes of Humanity maybe? I don't have HoH yet, and refuse to pick it up, unless there are significant changes to North America via the metaplot.

Megaverse in flames sets up what is about to happen on rifts earth and heroes of humanity covers the start up of the invasion it is basically the opening weeks/month of the action where the powers in the US see what is happening and the CS lurches into a call for all out war vs demons.

I still am holding out until I see the CS suffers losses that have long-reaching negative consequences for the CS that are codified in the canon.

[Hell knight]

Killjoy,

MiF doesn't say how the war ends. Heroes of Humanity maybe? I don't have HoH yet, and refuse to pick it up, unless there are significant changes to North America via the metaplot.

Megaverse in flames sets up what is about to happen on rifts earth and heroes of humanity covers the start up of the invasion it is basically the opening weeks/month of the action where the powers in the US see what is happening and the CS lurches into a call for all out war vs demons.

I still am holding out until I see the CS suffers losses that have long-reaching negative consequences for the CS that are codified in the canon.

It mentioned the sleeping army is suppose to awaken , and they suppose to be able to breach the wall of chi town . I would love to see that happen.

[Axelmania]

What are the chances of Pantheons material influencing this 'war on demons' thing? Hades of the Greeks and that Raksasha guy of the Indians are said to share Hades with Modeus so I want to know more about how invasions from Dyval are affecting this.

For the most part, since I haven't come across any discussion of it, I figure the Greek/Indian underworlds are deep subterranean and mostly unaffected (maybe even happy if Mictla might go away) while Modeus and his guys are on the surface or nearer to it.

Hades: Greece/India could be the next step in a Dyvalian invasion should Modeus' pantheon fall, since they also rule a lot of the same demons and might be okay with a surface change of power but get annoyed if Sahtalus decides he wants the underworld of Hades too.

[HWalsh]

Killjoy,

MiF doesn't say how the war ends. Heroes of Humanity maybe? I don't have HoH yet, and refuse to pick it up, unless there are significant changes to North America via the metaplot.

Megaverse in flames sets up what is about to happen on rifts earth and heroes of humanity covers the start up of the invasion it is basically the opening weeks/month of the action where the powers in the US see what is happening and the CS lurches into a call for all out war vs demons.

I still am holding out until I see the CS suffers losses that have long-reaching negative consequences for the CS that are codified in the canon.

It mentioned the sleeping army is suppose to awaken , and they suppose to be able to breach the wall of chi town . I would love to see that happen.

If Palladium would promise me that the next book will feature the Naz-er CS getting their butts handed to them and Chi-Town turned into dust I'd pre-order it twice.

[Axelmania]

No evidence exists of the CS persecuting Jews though bro.

Also look at Carol Black. You think Hitler would promote a black woman to that rank? Proseks are progressive.

CS aren't exactly invadingother dimensions to displace native populations. They are reclaiming the homeland and prioritizing the natives.

[dreicunan]

Killjoy,

MiF doesn't say how the war ends. Heroes of Humanity maybe? I don't have HoH yet, and refuse to pick it up, unless there are significant changes to North America via the metaplot.

Megaverse in flames sets up what is about to happen on rifts earth and heroes of humanity covers the start up of the invasion it is basically the opening weeks/month of the action where the powers in the US see what is happening and the CS lurches into a call for all out war vs demons.

I still am holding out until I see the CS suffers losses that have long-reaching negative consequences for the CS that are codified in the canon.

It mentioned the sleeping army is suppose to awaken , and they suppose to be able to breach the wall of chi town . I would love to see that happen.

If Palladium would promise me that the next book will feature the Naz-er CS getting their butts handed to them and Chi-Town turned into dust I'd pre-order it twice.

We get it, Cato. Just sticking "Ceterum censeo Civitates Coitionis esse delendum" in your signature would save a lot of time. Or, if you want to include non-classical Latin and make it punchier, "Coalitio delendus est".

[HWalsh]

No evidence exists of the CS persecuting Jews though bro.

Do you understand metaphor? I do not think that you do... If you did, then you'd see what the CS was obviously intended to remind us of. From their appearance. To their behavior to anyone not like themselves. (Granted, they extend "themselves" to "Humans born on Rifts Earth and who are free of mutation of any sort...") But... Come on, we know exactly who the CS is supposed to represent. It's not a big secret.

[dreicunan]

No evidence exists of the CS persecuting Jews though bro.

Do you understand metaphor? I do not think that you do... If you did, then you'd see what the CS was obviously intended to remind us of. From their appearance. To their behavior to anyone not like themselves. (Granted, they extend "themselves" to "Humans born on Rifts Earth and who are free of mutation of any sort...") But... Come on, we know exactly who the CS is supposed to represent. It's not a big secret.

The Galactic Empire, of course.

[HWalsh]

No evidence exists of the CS persecuting Jews though bro.

Do you understand metaphor? I do not think that you do... If you did, then you'd see what the CS was obviously intended to remind us of. From their appearance. To their behavior to anyone not like themselves. (Granted, they extend "themselves" to "Humans born on Rifts Earth and who are free of mutation of any sort...") But... Come on, we know exactly who the CS is supposed to represent. It's not a big secret.

The Galactic Empire, of course.

Exactly Dreicunan... Exactly. *wink*

[glitterboy2098]

ah yes

http://www.starwars.com/news/from-world ... -an-empire
"In the Star Wars saga, creator George Lucas showed us how the democratic Republic was slowly manipulated into giving unlimited power to the Sith Lord, Chancellor Palpatine. In Revenge of the Sith, Lucas explored the question, “How do you turn over democracy to a tyrant with applause? Not with a coup, but with applause?” Lucas recalls, “That is the story of Caesar, Napoleon, and Hitler.”"

http://www.starwars.com/news/from-world ... l-officers

"The fact that fascism inspired the look and feel of the Empire is no secret. In fact, Star Wars creator George Lucas even refers to the Imperial officers in The Empire Strikes Back as “Nazis” while giving his commentary of the film. He specifically mentions their militaristic dress, noting, “The Nazis are basically the same costume as we used in the first film and they are designed to be very authoritarian, very empire-like.”"

http://www.starwars.com/news/from-world ... rmtroopers

[Axelmania]

we know exactly who the CS is supposed to represent.

Palladium's treatment of the CS is too sympathetic to think it is Nazis, as Siembieda does not appear to be a Nazi sympathizer.

So I'm going to go with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Man

As Siembieda explains in Ultimate Edition that he retitled Boomers>Rifts in response to Bubblegum Crisis which AnimEigo didn't release in English until 1991, he clearly encountered anime during the developmental stages of Rifts so a manga from 1970 may have also fallen into his awareness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Rider debuting in 1972 also combines the skull + black clothing + antihero motif.

Nazis were hardly the first to use a skull as a military emblem... for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Knoe ... usaren.jpg

I see the CS as being openminded to humanity's long history of use of this symbol as one of strength, and not being blinded by the Nazi's use of it as making it unacceptable.

Some (such as the deity Surya, page 118 of Pantheons) hold intense views about not reusing symbols which Nazis appropriated (in his case the Swastika) but that doesn't mean everyone needs to...

I have to wonder how you can be principled and yet "destroy any place or group" which uses a symbol. According to his description, Surya would destroy the BBC for daring to publish http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29644591 and yet this doesn't somehow violate alignment restrictions for Principled?

[HWalsh]

we know exactly who the CS is supposed to represent.

Palladium's treatment of the CS is too sympathetic to think it is Nazis, as Siembieda does not appear to be a Nazi sympathizer.

So I'm going to go with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Man

As Siembieda explains in Ultimate Edition that he retitled Boomers>Rifts in response to Bubblegum Crisis which AnimEigo didn't release in English until 1991, he clearly encountered anime during the developmental stages of Rifts so a manga from 1970 may have also fallen into his awareness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Rider debuting in 1972 also combines the skull + black clothing + antihero motif.

Nazis were hardly the first to use a skull as a military emblem... for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Knoe ... usaren.jpg

I see the CS as being openminded to humanity's long history of use of this symbol as one of strength, and not being blinded by the Nazi's use of it as making it unacceptable.

Some (such as the deity Surya, page 118 of Pantheons) hold intense views about not reusing symbols which Nazis appropriated (in his case the Swastika) but that doesn't mean everyone needs to...

I have to wonder how you can be principled and yet "destroy any place or group" which uses a symbol. According to his description, Surya would destroy the BBC for daring to publish http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29644591 and yet this doesn't somehow violate alignment restrictions for Principled?

... Axel... Dude. Just... This isn't the time or place for roleplaying a CS fanatic. Its silly. The mountains of evidence is staggering. Anyway, if you want to keep denying it or what not, we can make another thread on it and we can compare data.

[Axelmania]

Feel free to compile the many times Nazis/Hitler are mentioned in association with the CS. I'm aware of them. But going from that to saying the CS is supposed to represent Nazis is a whole other thing. Despite the interesting "that is the story of" quote above from Lucas about Palpatine/Empire I don't know of an equivalent statement from Siembieda about Prosek/Coalition.

[Blue_Lion]

Feel free to compile the many times Nazis/Hitler are mentioned in association with the CS. I'm aware of them. But going from that to saying the CS is supposed to represent Nazis is a whole other thing. Despite the interesting "that is the story of" quote above from Lucas about Palpatine/Empire I don't know of an equivalent statement from Siembieda about Prosek/Coalition.

Yea it is not like the CS built D-bee death camps called concentration camps. Oh wait they did(In SoT). It is not like there uniforms borrow from Nazi uniforms. Oh wait they do. It is not like the books say that the CS emperor was inspired by Hitler. Oh wait they do. Heck the orignal conversion book talked about the CS using blitz tatics, that is a reference to the nazi bllitizkreg attack on london.

There is plenty of justification in the books for calling them nazis. It is not that Kevin is a Nazi sympathizer, originally the CS was written as the villain you where suppose to love to hate. Over time they grew and changed and developed a more human face.

More so when we have quotes like RUE PG 229 "I cannot help seeing the distinct similarity between this political regime and the Hitler regime of 20th century Germany. In fact, I can not shake the feeling that chairman Karl Prosek is intentionally patterning himself after this insane 20th Century dictator."

So that does apear that we have a direct book quote comparing CS to Nazi.

[dreicunan]

Feel free to compile the many times Nazis/Hitler are mentioned in association with the CS. I'm aware of them. But going from that to saying the CS is supposed to represent Nazis is a whole other thing. Despite the interesting "that is the story of" quote above from Lucas about Palpatine/Empire I don't know of an equivalent statement from Siembieda about Prosek/Coalition.

Yea it is not like the CS built D-bee death camps called concentration camps. Oh wait they did(In SoT). It is not like there uniforms borrow from Nazi uniforms. Oh wait they do. It is not like the books say that the CS emperor was inspired by Hitler. Oh wait they do. Heck the orignal conversion book talked about the CS using blitz tatics, that is a reference to the nazi bllitizkreg attack on london.

There is plenty of justification in the books for calling them nazis. It is not that Kevin is a Nazi sympathizer, originally the CS was written as the villain you where suppose to love to hate. Over time they grew and changed and developed a more human face.

More so when we have quotes like RUE PG 229 "I cannot help seeing the distinct similarity between this political regime and the Hitler regime of 20th century Germany. In fact, I can not shake the feeling that chairman Karl Prosek is intentionally patterning himself after this insane 20th Century dictator."

So that does apear that we have a direct book quote comparing CS to Nazi.

Well, we have a direct book quote from Erin Tarn, anyways. How reliable that is will depend on how reliable a narrator you consider her to be. While I personally see the parallels, one who wants to argue against it could point to the fact that Tarn has been wrong about things before.

[Axelmania]

Tarn happens to be partially correct since I believe CWC mentions Hitler among the historical figures which Karl has studied and learned from.

Her writing is off though in that it omits other figures which Karl is also mentioned as studying, giving the false impression that Hitler takes priority among his influences.

CWC also said he thought Hitler was crazy. Even if Hitler were a sole role model, Karl is obviously only emulaiting certain traits and discarding the rest. By not clarifying this, Tarn conveys a misleading picture as if Karl wants to pattern himself entirely after all of Hitler.

Nazis arent the only ones to have used skulls and lightning bolts.

Recognizing a military tactic and emulating it didn't mean you venerate the one you took it from. No good guy ever used a Blitz?

[HWalsh]

Tarn happens to be partially correct since I believe CWC mentions Hitler among the historical figures which Karl has studied and learned from.

Her writing is off though in that it omits other figures which Karl is also mentioned as studying, giving the false impression that Hitler takes priority among his influences.

CWC also said he thought Hitler was crazy. Even if Hitler were a sole role model, Karl is obviously only emulaiting certain traits and discarding the rest. By not clarifying this, Tarn conveys a misleading picture as if Karl wants to pattern himself entirely after all of Hitler.

Nazis arent the only ones to have used skulls and lightning bolts.

Recognizing a military tactic and emulating it didn't mean you venerate the one you took it from. No good guy ever used a Blitz?

Please provide citation where he said he was crazy, because while he said he was a madman, he followed it with, "the line between genius and insanity":

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=153257

[SereneTsunami]

No evidence exists of the CS persecuting Jews though bro.

Also look at Carol Black. You think Hitler would promote a black woman to that rank? Proseks are progressive.

CS aren't exactly invadingother dimensions to displace native populations. They are reclaiming the homeland and prioritizing the natives.

"Prioritizing the natives". That is top level spin. I love your posts Axelmania.

[Blue_Lion]

No evidence exists of the CS persecuting Jews though bro.

Also look at Carol Black. You think Hitler would promote a black woman to that rank? Proseks are progressive.

CS aren't exactly invadingother dimensions to displace native populations. They are reclaiming the homeland and prioritizing the natives.

"Prioritizing the natives". That is top level spin. I love your posts Axelmania.

Basically it is more a of a straw man. As Nazi was not fundamentally anti jews or black but there was a master race and every one else needs to leave the area the master race claimed. Nazi doctoren also said the non master race was to blame for the problems of the master race.

The master race was just changed from the white christian master race to human. Beyond that much of doctrine remains the same.

Got it you are saying how the CS is introduced to new players is only partially correct because it does not include things that make him look less like a Nazi.
Tarn words are how the CS is described to new players, setting the undertone for the CS. The context of Tarns writing is to describe the CS to new players, by discarding this context in your attack on it you are ignoring how Kevin S described the CS to new players in favor of your view of the CS. Remember while Nazi Germany was a evil government not every one in Germany was evil or even a Nazi, so while the CS leadership may be evil human biased Nazi, that does not mean every one in the CS is an evil.

There is plenty of justification for calling the CS Nazi and comparing them to it, because that is how they are as a villain. But as the CS is not 100% evil Nazi that allows you to play them with a group of heroes. The CS mirrors the best and worst of humans, it may have noble hereos but also is led by a evil man who chose to fallow in the foot steps of a madman's rise to power.

[Freemage]

Just because the CS are, yes, Nazi stand-ins, doesn't mean that every last CS soldier (let alone CS citizen) is evil incarnate. That's not how evil and fascism work. Rather, it's the use of propaganda and fear to make good people accept evil things that's the underpinning of such societies.

The top echelon? Evil to the core. But the front-line soldiers in WWII didn't really know about the Final Solution--that was the provenance of the SS and the camp guards. The rank-and-file military were, like most soldiers, doing what they believed was necessary for the survival and prosperity of their nation (and more than that, what they felt they needed to do to see the next sunrise). Watch Das Boot sometime.

There's a phrase, "demonizing the enemy", that applies to propaganda warfare. And it becomes much, much easier when at least some of your opponents are literal, actual demons--not just in appearance, but with all the connotations of that word coming along for the ride. That so many of the magical societies in North America seem willing to tolerate such entities makes it much easier for the Prosek Regime to sell the notion that ALL D-Bees and magic-wielders are ultimately working for the Pit.

[Axelmania]

What Kevin writes that Erin writes is not what Kevin is saying is true. Pretty sure from the get go while he says it is the most accurate book on Rifts Earth that it has its limits.

Tarn = Lügenpresse who I can't see as unbiased. The books say plenty bad things about Coalition and Karl from narrative perspective from the author which we can rely on. There is no need to pile her accusations on top of it. I give them the benefit of the doubt for whatever isn't spelled out.

[Blue_Lion]

What Kevin writes that Erin writes is not what Kevin is saying is true. Pretty sure from the get go while he says it is the most accurate book on Rifts Earth that it has its limits.

Tarn = Lügenpresse who I can't see as unbiased. The books say plenty bad things about Coalition and Karl from narrative perspective from the author which we can rely on. There is no need to pile her accusations on top of it. I give them the benefit of the doubt for whatever isn't spelled out.

Got it the books say bad thing but ignore the bad stuff when every you can. (Basically there is justification for the claims, but it does not fit your view of the CS and you want it ignored because you claim we can not count on it.)

[Axelmania]

Justification for claims found outside writings by NPCs is fine. Those things, even from a swell intelligent scrupulous person like Erin Tarn, represent fallible writings where we can't necessarily known what is accurate/mistaken or truthful/dishonest.

[Blue_Lion]

Justification for claims found outside writings by NPCs is fine. Those things, even from a swell intelligent scrupulous person like Erin Tarn, represent fallible writings where we can't necessarily known what is accurate/mistaken or truthful/dishonest.

Translation-It does not support my view so must be ignored as it is wrong, even though it is used to introduce players to the game.

Erin Tarns writing are how KS chose to introduce Rifts to new players. That means by default it shapes how people perceive Rifts, saying ignore it because we do not know it is accurate is a illogical as their is no reason to believe that Kevin would use dishonest or mistaken information to introduce people to rifts.

As Erin Tarn's writing are how Rifts is introduced you must be able to prove they are inaccurate to change the status quo that they represent how the world is. Please provided evidence that they are inaccurate other wise your claim to not use them has no support and should be ignored.(As what is said by Erin tarn is supported in other books, her having a filling he is patterning himself off Hitler has been proven true. So unless you have evidence she was dishonest stop making wild claims.)

[HWalsh]

Justification for claims found outside writings by NPCs is fine. Those things, even from a swell intelligent scrupulous person like Erin Tarn, represent fallible writings where we can't necessarily known what is accurate/mistaken or truthful/dishonest.

Translation-It does not support my view so must be ignored as it is wrong, even though it is used to introduce players to the game.

Erin Tarns writing are how KS chose to introduce Rifts to new players. That means by default it shapes how people perceive Rifts, saying ignore it because we do not know it is accurate is a illogical as their is no reason to believe that Kevin would use dishonest or mistaken information to introduce people to rifts.

As Erin Tarn's writing are how Rifts is introduced you must be able to prove they are inaccurate to change the status quo that they represent how the world is. Please provided evidence that they are inaccurate other wise your claim to not use them has no support and should be igonred.

Basically...

Assume Erin Tarn is correct, and common parlance phrasing is correct, until otherwise proven incorrect.

[Axelmania]

I do believe it is likely the ambassador was dead, that is the usual purpose of body bags, and the parlance of sending someone in a bag usually means sending their corpse after their died.

It is acceptable for us to differentiate between what we think is likely and what we know as fact though.

It is unlikely that a living human or staked vampire was sent back in the body bag. Both are possible though.

I don't accept that common parlance of bodybag=dead extends to =murdered or =executed though, which I suspect is where you might be intending to push this. Nor that it means bag-sender = murder-conspirator. That is NOT common parlance.

I don't agree that a body bag instead of a casket is some kind if insult though. Body bags are standard for preserving evidence (like fluid leakage) in case Tolkeen wanted to do its own forensic analysis. It is also possible to transport body bags via larger containers.

As for Tarn. Rifts 137 "vast gaps in her knowledge". Tarn also refused to write TOMW and refuses to endorse it. These were her 1st draft letters published without any editing/updating from her. Even if a professional publication from Tarn might be considered reliable, nothing we get from her in the world books fits that, it is all a bunch of rough unedited letters she won't endorse.

Though I would wager an Erin letter is more reliable than a Karl speech, that doesn't mean we can take for granted any of her claims. "Splugorth the Terrible" indeed.

[HWalsh]

I don't accept that common parlance of bodybag=dead extends to =murdered or =executed though, which I suspect is where you might be intending to push this. Nor that it means bag-sender = murder-conspirator. That is NOT common parlance.

Go to Google.

Type in:
"Sent them back in a body bag"
"Sent him back in a body bag"

Every single result is a direct reference to the person being murdered by the sender. That is common parlance. The phrase, "They sent him back in a body bag" was first used in fiction by a grieving parent who blamed the military for the death of her son.

It has since been exclusively used to denote either a threat, "I'll send you back in a body bag" as an expression of guilt or responsibility "We sent him back in a body bag" or as an accusation, "They sent him back in a body bag."

There are actually no uses of the phrase to denote it being used as a simple factual literal statement of fact.

So, how likely do you believe it is that Kevin would make a mistake and use that exact wording in a manner that it is never used... Meaning how likely do you believe it is that Mr. Siembieda has never encountered that phrase, which is commonly used in war movies and gangster films, and thus would use it without knowing what the phrase means?

[Axelmania]

What fiction book are you referring to? I want to check it and consider the year/context.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=crtZNv ... g=PA23&dq="in+a+body+bag" is a 2012 publication containing a 1947 log where the bagger is just the one who retrieves a corpse.

Seems to have been a chant in 1968 https://books.google.ca/books?id=jA4mAQAAIAAJ&q="home+in+a+body+bag"&dq="home+in+a+body+bag"

This is similar (lyrics you>he, variation) of a "body bag song" in the Vietnam war sung to "camp town races" tune https://books.google.ca/books?id=hJafAA ... nvolume&q="body+bag"

Hit him in the chest with an RPG, Do da, do da!
Hit him in the chest with an RPG, Oh! Do da day!
He ain't got but an arm and a leg, Do da, do da!
He ain't got but an arm and a leg, Oh! Do da day!
Send him home in a body bag, Do da, do da!
Send him home in a body bag, Oh! Do da day!
Oh, gwine to fight all night,
Gwine to fight all day,
Gwine to send him home in a body bag
All the do da day

So while I fully recognize the use of this phrase has a long use of being used to implicate killing others, this isn't the only use of it. It can be used literally to refer to simply processing a corpse and transporting it in a body bag too.

This is also one of those RAW / RAI situations. We can speculate a huge deal about author intent but the stronger arbiter is things written plainly.

Even if we did attribute the Coalition as responsible for the death - in what respect? Were they responsible like a parent accusing a military of recklessly endangering a life (like the CS not providing adequate security and the diplomat being killed by a non-citizen) or responsible like they publicly and officially executed them? Or a middle ground of something passed as an accident but actually a quiet murder? Or did some rogue element in the CS pay juicers to do it like Desmond Bradford did to that investigator?

You point out the historical context of the angry parent yet in those cases it is not the sending army who truly responsible, but rather enemy combatants. Or maybe they stepped on a mine. Or mishandled a.grenade. or died of a fever.from bad hygiene.

In that sense, some could say that the CS should be responsible for protecting diplomats and any failure to do so is their fault and responsibility. But that kind of negligence wouldn't be grounds to stop diplomacy altogether, and if that were the case it would be petty for the CS to do so.

Also worth exploring, even if the CS has officially executed the diplomat, was if it was justified. The concept of diplomatic immunity is old. Perhaps this diplomat assumed he had it and was wrong, in that CS fully enforces its laws on foreign diplomats.

What if, for example, the diplomat was a minor psychic and had.sex with a non-psychic citizen of Chi-town? That is illegal! Would punishing this crime really be grounds to stop talks? Seems like incompetence in the part of the diplomat for not knowing the laws or the land and obeying them, not keeping hold of their emotion and acting professional.

Basically until all major details are known about the events, whether or not the Tolkeen choice to stop talking forever was justified can't be known.

Forever.seems.unjustified regardless though. A good reason to not send diplomats in person could exist but not to choose to stop talking altogether when this could be done by scrambled radio or courier.

[Nekira Sudacne]

In rifts, given Kevin's very vauge writing style, Author Intent is stronger than written plainly, because written plainly, much of the game is nonsense.

[Axelmania]

Nonsense or... Mysteriously open-ended allowing for GM flexibility in campaign design?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Nonsense or... Mysteriously open-ended allowing for GM flexibility in campaign design?

No, nonsense. GM's can always change anything and everything they want, so Kevin feels no need to write with much leeway in that sense, other than leaving certain aspects of the metaplot open ended.

[glitterboy2098]

if Kevin S. had meant for the ambassador to have died of natural causes or return alive in some bizzare gesture, he would have made it clear.

[Axelmania]

Nekira if Kev left it open ended in CB whether BTS was past or alt dimension, if macroplot is left flexible then why not microplot? Every unclarified detail is room for GMs or later books to introduce surprises.

Glitterboy: you could say the sake of Lady Prosek. Coalition War Campaign said she died. KS stating or implying/hinting at something in an earlier book is non guarantee the opposite isn't planned.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Nekira if Kev left it open ended in CB whether BTS was past or alt dimension, if macroplot is left flexible then why not microplot? Every unclarified detail is room for GMs or later books to introduce surprises.

I am not saying it is hypothetically impossible for an author to have done so in a hypothetical game line, I am saying Kevin S. did not in fact do so in the game at question. It dosn't fit his style, it does not even generally fit the given word, which tend to make perfect sense if you read them colliqually and nonsense if read littearlly. If you can clearly glean the intended meaning, do so.

There are a few points where the rules are just plain indecipherable or nonextant, in which case sure, do whatever you want, but such occurances are mistakes, not deliberate features.

[Axelmania]

I took that approach for the (I think mis-) placement of the "all missiles hit the main body" and got hit with a 'the RAW' deliberateness-assumptions. It seems like which approach people want to take varies depending in the outcome they want. I realize of course that I in turn can be viewed that way.

If Kev is willing to print an outright lie about Lady Prosek being murdered in WB11 to correct in SoT4, printing an ambiguous hint at a possible murder in SoT1 is really no guarantee of that assumed history being fact. It is a Hook if I ever saw one. One whoever is doing Disavowed should bite.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Or maybe retcon. Those happen too.

[Astral_Explorer]

I hope for changes on the world.

A massive Xiticix swarm rising up and crushing the Deevil army that wants to enslave them. (Please)
Atlantis FINALLY having something happen that is more then a brief annoyance. C'mon man I am so sick
of hearing how Splyncyth holds back his forces and if he wanted to he could decimate any threat.
How about Demons and Deevils swarming in using their slaves to open portals from the pyramids and freeing the millions
of powered slaves and telling them they are free but they have to fight for it.

Though we are given the same ok when the Demons and Deevils attack it merely upsets Splyncryth enough to retaliate since
he had a they have to attack me before I can attack them policy. Hmmm how often do evil forces think like this ?

Would be nice to see the Gargoyles Empire rise up and say HELL NO to the Hades Demons trying to enslave them again or the Deevils telling them they can be welcomed among their number. An obvious lie. Seeing the Gargoyles mecha forces and high tech armed members attack the Demon army would be nice to see. I always liked the Gargoyle Empire having a freedom from Hades self empowered nature. Sadly this was destroyed by it being revealed they were a fluke created by a fey creature.

Other forces striking at Dyval and Hades while so many are off to war elsewhere. Who knows maybe those archaic demons are sick of being second string. Maybe the CS makes a deal with a shifter or more likely holds a rail gun to some shifters head to open a rift to Hades and nukes one of their demon cities. Millions of demon deaths especially REAL deaths might make these hellish forces rethink things.

A lot can be done with the Minion war but I am seeing a lot of status quo.

The Coalition after a brutal war with Tolkeen gets a back to back war against the two warring hell races. Instead of a more realistic Man that Sorcerers revenge was scary as hell, the CS is swarmed with new volunteers willing to be made Juicers and borgs.

At least Phase World's Three Galaxies does have it that the wars will effect things, the fate of whole worlds and powerblocks.

[HWalsh]

I hope for changes on the world.

A massive Xiticix swarm rising up and crushing the Deevil army that wants to enslave them. (Please)
Atlantis FINALLY having something happen that is more then a brief annoyance. C'mon man I am so sick
of hearing how Splyncyth holds back his forces and if he wanted to he could decimate any threat.
How about Demons and Deevils swarming in using their slaves to open portals from the pyramids and freeing the millions
of powered slaves and telling them they are free but they have to fight for it.

Though we are given the same ok when the Demons and Deevils attack it merely upsets Splyncryth enough to retaliate since
he had a they have to attack me before I can attack them policy. Hmmm how often do evil forces think like this ?

Would be nice to see the Gargoyles Empire rise up and say HELL NO to the Hades Demons trying to enslave them again or the Deevils telling them they can be welcomed among their number. An obvious lie. Seeing the Gargoyles mecha forces and high tech armed members attack the Demon army would be nice to see. I always liked the Gargoyle Empire having a freedom from Hades self empowered nature. Sadly this was destroyed by it being revealed they were a fluke created by a fey creature.

Other forces striking at Dyval and Hades while so many are off to war elsewhere. Who knows maybe those archaic demons are sick of being second string. Maybe the CS makes a deal with a shifter or more likely holds a rail gun to some shifters head to open a rift to Hades and nukes one of their demon cities. Millions of demon deaths especially REAL deaths might make these hellish forces rethink things.

A lot can be done with the Minion war but I am seeing a lot of status quo.

The Coalition after a brutal war with Tolkeen gets a back to back war against the two warring hell races. Instead of a more realistic Man that Sorcerers revenge was scary as hell, the CS is swarmed with new volunteers willing to be made Juicers and borgs.

At least Phase World's Three Galaxies does have it that the wars will effect things, the fate of whole worlds and powerblocks.

My game's canon for the Minion War (In North America) is as follows:

The Xiticix weakened, but did not defeat the Deevil that tried to enslave them. They were, however, defeated by a surge from Psi-Stalkers that took advantage of the distraction the bugs presented to the minions.

The CS fought well but suffered heavy losses. Ultimately the forces of Lazlo finished the fight as the CS pulled back. This has caused long-reaching problems for the Coalition States.

The Cyber-Knights, Lyn Srial Sky-Knights, and Tundra Rangers succeeded in shutting down the Calgary Hell Pit against all odds. Lord Coake himself cutting off the head of the Hell Lord.

Even with all of that the pit in the Dinosaur Swamp was missed. The minions were gathering there for a second offensive and surged forward. Their target was the CS City of Chi-Town, figuring, correctly, if they could destroy the CS they would break the morale of the humans. With the weakened CS forces unable to hold the tide back, even joined by a surprise ally as forces from New Lazlo and the Cyber-Knights came to the aid of the walled city.

One of the spirits of light came to a small group of adventurers and offers them a secondary chance. They descended into Hell itself to retrieve a relic that the minion forces held that was stopping the forces of Light from acting. At the last moment the heroes succeeded and as they did so a massive fleet of angels descended onto the Deevils and Demons. They never stood a chance.

A wave of light washed over Rifts Earth and destroyed the forces of Hell. The implications of that final battle have not yet been revealed to the players.

---

What they don't know is the following will happen within the next 12 months:

Prosek's carefully crafted lies are shattered because of the exposure to magic and d-bees who fought the minions with them. Also because they came to the aid of the CS in their moment of destruction. The CS will fall to civil war as the Republicans make their move. When the dust clears there will be a much smaller, and weakened, CS and the RNA (Republic of North America). The CS will follow the same old formula but with half of their forces gone and their resources depleted. They will fall to a more restricted regime. They will spin their new misfortune on d-bees and magic, blaming them for corrupting the Coalition Military and for "stealing" their resources. They are still an army over 3,000,000 strong though and still a significant threat.

ARCHIE Three is thwarted as the sleepers are awakened and the Republicans seize control of half of the old CS. He plots a new stage to remove them as a threat. Possibly working to restore the CS to power by aiding them in defeating his hated enemies.

The Wave of Light decimated the Vampire Population of the world. Meaning that Doc Reid is making real headway and the Alien Intelligence is at last in potential striking distance.

The most surprising outcome of it all was that the Wave of Light, which will come to mark the new age of the world, cut off Splyncryth's connection to the Splugorth worlds. He is now isolated and alone. This has caused panic as the True Atlantean Tribes gather and prepare to attempt to take back their ancestral home. In England Arthur is left adrift as his wizard and mentor has vanished without a trace. In truth the wave did tremendous damage to all alien intelligences on the planet and so he has been driven off-world. England's future remains in flux. Most badly damaged of all was China. The Demon Kings were forcibly ejected from the world. This leaves a new landscape that has been forever transformed.

-----

That is what *I* did to make the setting new again. I hope Palladium does some radical change to the status quo as well...

[RockJock]

HWalsh, I like your shakeup..

[Johnathan]

I hope for changes on the world.

A massive Xiticix swarm rising up and crushing the Deevil army that wants to enslave them. (Please)
Atlantis FINALLY having something happen that is more then a brief annoyance. C'mon man I am so sick
of hearing how Splyncyth holds back his forces and if he wanted to he could decimate any threat.
How about Demons and Deevils swarming in using their slaves to open portals from the pyramids and freeing the millions
of powered slaves and telling them they are free but they have to fight for it.

Though we are given the same ok when the Demons and Deevils attack it merely upsets Splyncryth enough to retaliate since
he had a they have to attack me before I can attack them policy. Hmmm how often do evil forces think like this ?

Would be nice to see the Gargoyles Empire rise up and say HELL NO to the Hades Demons trying to enslave them again or the Deevils telling them they can be welcomed among their number. An obvious lie. Seeing the Gargoyles mecha forces and high tech armed members attack the Demon army would be nice to see. I always liked the Gargoyle Empire having a freedom from Hades self empowered nature. Sadly this was destroyed by it being revealed they were a fluke created by a fey creature.

Other forces striking at Dyval and Hades while so many are off to war elsewhere. Who knows maybe those archaic demons are sick of being second string. Maybe the CS makes a deal with a shifter or more likely holds a rail gun to some shifters head to open a rift to Hades and nukes one of their demon cities. Millions of demon deaths especially REAL deaths might make these hellish forces rethink things.

A lot can be done with the Minion war but I am seeing a lot of status quo.

The Coalition after a brutal war with Tolkeen gets a back to back war against the two warring hell races. Instead of a more realistic Man that Sorcerers revenge was scary as hell, the CS is swarmed with new volunteers willing to be made Juicers and borgs.

At least Phase World's Three Galaxies does have it that the wars will effect things, the fate of whole worlds and powerblocks.

My game's canon for the Minion War (In North America) is as follows:

The Xiticix weakened, but did not defeat the Deevil that tried to enslave them. They were, however, defeated by a surge from Psi-Stalkers that took advantage of the distraction the bugs presented to the minions.

The CS fought well but suffered heavy losses. Ultimately the forces of Lazlo finished the fight as the CS pulled back. This has caused long-reaching problems for the Coalition States.

The Cyber-Knights, Lyn Srial Sky-Knights, and Tundra Rangers succeeded in shutting down the Calgary Hell Pit against all odds. Lord Coake himself cutting off the head of the Hell Lord.

Even with all of that the pit in the Dinosaur Swamp was missed. The minions were gathering there for a second offensive and surged forward. Their target was the CS City of Chi-Town, figuring, correctly, if they could destroy the CS they would break the morale of the humans. With the weakened CS forces unable to hold the tide back, even joined by a surprise ally as forces from New Lazlo and the Cyber-Knights came to the aid of the walled city.

One of the spirits of light came to a small group of adventurers and offers them a secondary chance. They descended into Hell itself to retrieve a relic that the minion forces held that was stopping the forces of Light from acting. At the last moment the heroes succeeded and as they did so a massive fleet of angels descended onto the Deevils and Demons. They never stood a chance.

A wave of light washed over Rifts Earth and destroyed the forces of Hell. The implications of that final battle have not yet been revealed to the players.

---

What they don't know is the following will happen within the next 12 months:

Prosek's carefully crafted lies are shattered because of the exposure to magic and d-bees who fought the minions with them. Also because they came to the aid of the CS in their moment of destruction. The CS will fall to civil war as the Republicans make their move. When the dust clears there will be a much smaller, and weakened, CS and the RNA (Republic of North America). The CS will follow the same old formula but with half of their forces gone and their resources depleted. They will fall to a more restricted regime. They will spin their new misfortune on d-bees and magic, blaming them for corrupting the Coalition Military and for "stealing" their resources. They are still an army over 3,000,000 strong though and still a significant threat.

ARCHIE Three is thwarted as the sleepers are awakened and the Republicans seize control of half of the old CS. He plots a new stage to remove them as a threat. Possibly working to restore the CS to power by aiding them in defeating his hated enemies.

The Wave of Light decimated the Vampire Population of the world. Meaning that Doc Reid is making real headway and the Alien Intelligence is at last in potential striking distance.

The most surprising outcome of it all was that the Wave of Light, which will come to mark the new age of the world, cut off Splyncryth's connection to the Splugorth worlds. He is now isolated and alone. This has caused panic as the True Atlantean Tribes gather and prepare to attempt to take back their ancestral home. In England Arthur is left adrift as his wizard and mentor has vanished without a trace. In truth the wave did tremendous damage to all alien intelligences on the planet and so he has been driven off-world. England's future remains in flux. Most badly damaged of all was China. The Demon Kings were forcibly ejected from the world. This leaves a new landscape that has been forever transformed.

-----

That is what *I* did to make the setting new again. I hope Palladium does some radical change to the status quo as well...

Solid! Way to introduce the forces of light in dramatic fashion!

[HWalsh]

HWalsh, I like your shakeup..

Thanks!

[HWalsh]

I hope for changes on the world.

A massive Xiticix swarm rising up and crushing the Deevil army that wants to enslave them. (Please)
Atlantis FINALLY having something happen that is more then a brief annoyance. C'mon man I am so sick
of hearing how Splyncyth holds back his forces and if he wanted to he could decimate any threat.
How about Demons and Deevils swarming in using their slaves to open portals from the pyramids and freeing the millions
of powered slaves and telling them they are free but they have to fight for it.

Though we are given the same ok when the Demons and Deevils attack it merely upsets Splyncryth enough to retaliate since
he had a they have to attack me before I can attack them policy. Hmmm how often do evil forces think like this ?

Would be nice to see the Gargoyles Empire rise up and say HELL NO to the Hades Demons trying to enslave them again or the Deevils telling them they can be welcomed among their number. An obvious lie. Seeing the Gargoyles mecha forces and high tech armed members attack the Demon army would be nice to see. I always liked the Gargoyle Empire having a freedom from Hades self empowered nature. Sadly this was destroyed by it being revealed they were a fluke created by a fey creature.

Other forces striking at Dyval and Hades while so many are off to war elsewhere. Who knows maybe those archaic demons are sick of being second string. Maybe the CS makes a deal with a shifter or more likely holds a rail gun to some shifters head to open a rift to Hades and nukes one of their demon cities. Millions of demon deaths especially REAL deaths might make these hellish forces rethink things.

A lot can be done with the Minion war but I am seeing a lot of status quo.

The Coalition after a brutal war with Tolkeen gets a back to back war against the two warring hell races. Instead of a more realistic Man that Sorcerers revenge was scary as hell, the CS is swarmed with new volunteers willing to be made Juicers and borgs.

At least Phase World's Three Galaxies does have it that the wars will effect things, the fate of whole worlds and powerblocks.

My game's canon for the Minion War (In North America) is as follows:

The Xiticix weakened, but did not defeat the Deevil that tried to enslave them. They were, however, defeated by a surge from Psi-Stalkers that took advantage of the distraction the bugs presented to the minions.

The CS fought well but suffered heavy losses. Ultimately the forces of Lazlo finished the fight as the CS pulled back. This has caused long-reaching problems for the Coalition States.

The Cyber-Knights, Lyn Srial Sky-Knights, and Tundra Rangers succeeded in shutting down the Calgary Hell Pit against all odds. Lord Coake himself cutting off the head of the Hell Lord.

Even with all of that the pit in the Dinosaur Swamp was missed. The minions were gathering there for a second offensive and surged forward. Their target was the CS City of Chi-Town, figuring, correctly, if they could destroy the CS they would break the morale of the humans. With the weakened CS forces unable to hold the tide back, even joined by a surprise ally as forces from New Lazlo and the Cyber-Knights came to the aid of the walled city.

One of the spirits of light came to a small group of adventurers and offers them a secondary chance. They descended into Hell itself to retrieve a relic that the minion forces held that was stopping the forces of Light from acting. At the last moment the heroes succeeded and as they did so a massive fleet of angels descended onto the Deevils and Demons. They never stood a chance.

A wave of light washed over Rifts Earth and destroyed the forces of Hell. The implications of that final battle have not yet been revealed to the players.

---

What they don't know is the following will happen within the next 12 months:

Prosek's carefully crafted lies are shattered because of the exposure to magic and d-bees who fought the minions with them. Also because they came to the aid of the CS in their moment of destruction. The CS will fall to civil war as the Republicans make their move. When the dust clears there will be a much smaller, and weakened, CS and the RNA (Republic of North America). The CS will follow the same old formula but with half of their forces gone and their resources depleted. They will fall to a more restricted regime. They will spin their new misfortune on d-bees and magic, blaming them for corrupting the Coalition Military and for "stealing" their resources. They are still an army over 3,000,000 strong though and still a significant threat.

ARCHIE Three is thwarted as the sleepers are awakened and the Republicans seize control of half of the old CS. He plots a new stage to remove them as a threat. Possibly working to restore the CS to power by aiding them in defeating his hated enemies.

The Wave of Light decimated the Vampire Population of the world. Meaning that Doc Reid is making real headway and the Alien Intelligence is at last in potential striking distance.

The most surprising outcome of it all was that the Wave of Light, which will come to mark the new age of the world, cut off Splyncryth's connection to the Splugorth worlds. He is now isolated and alone. This has caused panic as the True Atlantean Tribes gather and prepare to attempt to take back their ancestral home. In England Arthur is left adrift as his wizard and mentor has vanished without a trace. In truth the wave did tremendous damage to all alien intelligences on the planet and so he has been driven off-world. England's future remains in flux. Most badly damaged of all was China. The Demon Kings were forcibly ejected from the world. This leaves a new landscape that has been forever transformed.

-----

That is what *I* did to make the setting new again. I hope Palladium does some radical change to the status quo as well...

Solid! Way to introduce the forces of light in dramatic fashion!

Glad you liked it.

[Axelmania]

I think maybe Lady Prosek getting killed per SB1/CWC could still be true even though FOM/SOT4 has her alive+mothernapped, because a FoM mage could've resurrected her, and just didn't bother to resurrect her son, or maybe his body was too mutilated to do that.