Summon Lesser Being restrictions

[Axelmania]

Since this "plucks a.supernatural being out of its native dimension and magically places it before the mystic in our world" would this mean...

1) only creatures presently in their native dimension can be summoned
2) it can only summon them to an Earth (this is a BTS and Rifts spell)
3) the creature must exit their native dimension as part of the spell so it can't be native to Earth

I got thinking about this when wondering if you could just recast it on a creature that you forgot to send back, or to gain control of any other creatures already present.

It would seem RAW looking very literally this approach wouldn't work since they aren't in their native dimension.

This could also explain why it hasn't been used as a strategy to reduce the number of supernatural monsters in Rifts Earth and why Shifters are looked down upon.

[Mlp7029]

Since this "plucks a.supernatural being out of its native dimension and magically places it before the mystic in our world" would this mean...

1) only creatures presently in their native dimension can be summoned
2) it can only summon them to an Earth (this is a BTS and Rifts spell)
3) the creature must exit their native dimension as part of the spell so it can't be native to Earth

I got thinking about this when wondering if you could just recast it on a creature that you forgot to send back, or to gain control of any other creatures already present.

It would seem RAW looking very literally this approach wouldn't work since they aren't in their native dimension.

This could also explain why it hasn't been used as a strategy to reduce the number of supernatural monsters in Rifts Earth and why Shifters are looked down upon.

I agree with number one. Disagree it will only summon to Earth. I think the summoned creature appears before the mage wherever the mage is. I agree with three unless the mage was castinthevspell in another dimension then a supernatural being native to earth could be summoned. Off the top of my head I cannot think of a supernatural species that is native to earth. Unless you counted being of a supernatural species born on earth to be natives.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Sea Titans are a supernatural race native to earth from magically mutated humans. By definition they are as native to earth as any other species that evolved on earth.

[Axelmania]

Right, so they can't be summoned if all 3 restrictions are in place, but become summonable (as do undead slayers) if we.ignore any.

[Blue_Lion]

I disagree that 2 is part of the spell.
1 and 3 make sense but two seams false to me.

The our world to me is about placing it in the world the caster and those around him are on. IE in phase wold if you where on center it would place it before the caster on center. Our world is a subjective term that can change depending on where you are.

Rifts does include more worlds than just earth.

[Mack]

Since this "plucks a.supernatural being out of its native dimension and magically places it before the mystic in our world" would this mean...

1) only creatures presently in their native dimension can be summoned
2) it can only summon them to an Earth (this is a BTS and Rifts spell)
3) the creature must exit their native dimension as part of the spell so it can't be native to Earth

Don't over think it.

I got thinking about this when wondering if you could just recast it on a creature that you forgot to send back, or to gain control of any other creatures already present.

It would seem RAW looking very literally this approach wouldn't work since they aren't in their native dimension.

This could also explain why it hasn't been used as a strategy to reduce the number of supernatural monsters in Rifts Earth and why Shifters are looked down upon.

KS tends to write in general concepts, not in strict specifics. He rarely writes with hard rules and deterministic definitions--that's simply not his language. Hence the number of inconsistencies and perceived contradictions people find in Rifts. It's intended to be an open, free flowing style which can frustrate those readers who crave firm structure.

Now, having said all that, I would not place the three restrictions you listed on the spell.

[Axelmania]

Without them the drama of monsters set loose in Rifts Earth becomes less though, since you can just summon them off the planet.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Without them the drama of monsters set loose in Rifts Earth becomes less though, since you can just summon them off the planet.

Not really. Summon magics cannot pick where the creature comes from. You get a completely random X from a completely random place (unless you have True Name, then you get that specific demon). No ability to target demons or whatever on rifts earth or anywhere else.

Plus lots of monsters are not summonable period. No circle or spell will summon dinosaurs or fury beetles for example

I notice you keep bringing the "just summon a lot of X to get rid of X". I think the thing you are overlooking is that summoning monsters to depopulate them is simply never going to be a viable stratagy. not for any number crunching reasons, but because that's not how summoning works. Yoinking folks at complete random when the demon hoards are countless means you will never make a noticeable dent this way. not because there are littearlly infinity demons, but because the number is defined as "too many for summoning to be a viable depopulation method" (no matter how many summoners you get, there will always be even more demons.). It's a hazy unstated rule beacause summoning is a way to get minions, not a stragetic weapon against the forces of hell. That's doing the whole overthinking thing.

You really really want the rules to be clear and predictable, but palladium will never be that. Taking it's rules to be read to the utmost grammatical literacy is actually a way to garentee you are understanding the rules improperly. they were written with all the grammatical consistancy of someone telling a tall tale while half drunk one late evening, and you are trying to analyze the resulting mush as if it were a legal contract. it will never work the way you want it to, no matter how much you want it to, or how many topics you make trying to convince anyone to see things your way

[Axelmania]

If all the CS had to deal with was dinosaurs and fury beetles things would be easy. Supernatural creatures are the main problem.

The SLB spell doesn't mention needing to know a true name. It only says "a specific lesser monster can be summoned if desired".

Another interesting thing is the part at the end about a dimensional portal being the only way to send them back when duration is up.

If they could simply be enslaved again with a recast which then let's you send them back beforethe duration is up then this wouldn't make sense.

[flatline]

The SLB spell doesn't mention needing to know a true name. It only says "a specific lesser monster can be summoned if desired".

Most GMs I've played with interpret that to mean that you can specify a particular species.
In order to summon a specific individual, they usually require that you have something else (true name, item imprinted on the individual, etc).

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

If all the CS had to deal with was dinosaurs and fury beetles things would be easy. Supernatural creatures are the main problem.

The SLB spell doesn't mention needing to know a true name. It only says "a specific lesser monster can be summoned if desired".

I didn't say specific type required a true name. I said a specific individual demon. If a broadkil is terrorizing a village and you know its true name, you can summon that particular one and make it stop. Without it the odds of getting that specific brodkil are next to nil. This would work even if you are standing in front of it at the time. A demons true name overides most restrictions

Another interesting thing is the part at the end about a dimensional portal being the only way to send them back when duration is up.

If they could simply be enslaved again with a recast which then let's you send them back beforethe duration is up then this wouldn't make sense.

That's what I mean. You can't target a specific individual demon to summon that one again, unless you have it's true name. if you DO, then it basically makes it your slave for life. That's why demons are so protective of them. ((No, you can't use mind control or hypnosis or telepathy or mind bond to learn it, those explictly don't work))

[Blue_Lion]

Without them the drama of monsters set loose in Rifts Earth becomes less though, since you can just summon them off the planet.

Plus lots of monsters are not summonable period. No circle or spell will summon dinosaurs or fury beetles for example

I am not so sure about that, I think there is a circle to summon animals and a dinosaur would most likely be counted as such probally a fury beetle as well.

[Axelmania]

The summon lesser being ritual says a.specific monster, not a specific type of monster, and it doesn't specify needing to know a true name.

You could for example, have a clairvoyant vision of a Devilkin torturing a vagabond and specify "bring me the demon torturing that vagabond!" And they will come, because that is specific. Descriptions can be as specific as names.

Now if we limit the spell per its description as only grabbing things in their home dimension, it becomes less destabilizing. It would also explain why demons like to travel outside their home dimension so much: being untargetable by this ritual.

In some cases I could see having more than one home dimension. Like if a human was born on Earth but changed into a Death Demon I could see both Earth and Hades being considered home. Although they'd greater demons and not targetable by this ritual so it isn't the most useful example.

[eliakon]

The summon lesser being ritual says a.specific monster, not a specific type of monster, and it doesn't specify needing to know a true name.

You could for example, have a clairvoyant vision of a Devilkin torturing a vagabond and specify "bring me the demon torturing that vagabond!" And they will come, because that is specific. Descriptions can be as specific as names.

Now if we limit the spell per its description as only grabbing things in their home dimension, it becomes less destabilizing. It would also explain why demons like to travel outside their home dimension so much: being untargetable by this ritual.

In some cases I could see having more than one home dimension. Like if a human was born on Earth but changed into a Death Demon I could see both Earth and Hades being considered home. Although they'd greater demons and not targetable by this ritual so it isn't the most useful example.

That is one interpretation.
Saying you want a gargoyle though is also letting you summon a specific monster.
Instead of summoning "Something"
And it doesn't say you can summon a specific individual either.
So we are back to guessing what was intended.
Which is why the information about True Names is so important... the sections on True Names discuss that they allow a caster to summon that individual specifically, which would not be relevant if you already could do just that.

[Axelmania]

By the time that came out hadn't Ultimate already replaced the SLB.start spell with a shifter OCC ability similar to the summoner? Those lack the ability to summon a specific monster without a name, not the ritual.