Impact laser war hammer question.

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Blue_Lion
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Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

So a question is going to come up based on a custom weapon from my games.

Impact Laser war hammer.
It is a war hammer that has a laser built inside the head that when the switch on the handle is in the on position will fire a short range laser when something strikes the face of the hammer.
Stats
name-Skyhook Laser hammer
WP used-blunt
Range-Mellee
Class- physical when used as a blunt weapon or energy damage when the laser is used.
DMG-Blunt weapon 2d4 sdc; Laser when turned on 2d6 MD per hit
Power supply- e-clip port
Power consumption- 2 charges (25 MD attacks per short e-clip)
DC value- 25 MDC
Special features-none
Market value- 15000 cr


The question I have is if a player with SN got one, should I add the laser damage to his punch damage when he uses it?
(I am most likly going to use the optional rule for breaking the weapon.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by guardiandashi »

I would allow the creature with Supernatural strength to use it, but there would be a chance of breaking it with every hit, of course there are 2 ways it can break, 1 is that the laser portion would break, the other is that the weapon would break IE the head sheers off or similar.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The melee damage is separate from the laser damage.

Depending on the strike damage; if the strike damage (in MD) is greater then the MDC of the hammer's head/handle; I might apply the SN PS with normal weapons rules to see if the hammer bends (handle) or breaks (head & handle).

Thus the MDC values of the hammer head and the handle need to be stated.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by taalismn »

I'd use the Gargoyle Blast Knuckles(Plasma) instead of a laser...laser implies breakable optics...not optimal for a blunt force weapon.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:So a question is going to come up based on a custom weapon from my games.

Impact Laser war hammer.
It is a war hammer that has a laser built inside the head that when the switch on the handle is in the on position will fire a short range laser when something strikes the face of the hammer.
Stats
name-Skyhook Laser hammer
WP used-blunt
Range-Mellee
Class- physical when used as a blunt weapon or energy damage when the laser is used.
DMG-Blunt weapon 2d4 sdc; Laser when turned on 2d6 MD per hit
Power supply- e-clip port
Power consumption- 2 charges (25 MD attacks per short e-clip)
DC value- 25 MDC
Special features-none
Market value- 15000 cr


The question I have is if a player with SN got one, should I add the laser damage to his punch damage when he uses it?
(I am most likly going to use the optional rule for breaking the weapon.


Yes, it should stack.

Also, check out the Bang Hammers I wrote up a while back.
Similar principle.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=135151&p=2615462&hilit=Wilk%27s+hammer#p2615462
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

taalismn wrote:I'd use the Gargoyle Blast Knuckles(Plasma) instead of a laser...laser implies breakable optics...not optimal for a blunt force weapon.

I would think that MD optics would be fairly hard to break.
Also the laser lens is not what strikes the target.

The hammer represents a possible addaptation of rifts tech that should be possible for a weapons eng to build.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:So a question is going to come up based on a custom weapon from my games.

Impact Laser war hammer.
It is a war hammer that has a laser built inside the head that when the switch on the handle is in the on position will fire a short range laser when something strikes the face of the hammer.
Stats
name-Skyhook Laser hammer
WP used-blunt
Range-Mellee
Class- physical when used as a blunt weapon or energy damage when the laser is used.
DMG-Blunt weapon 2d4 sdc; Laser when turned on 2d6 MD per hit
Power supply- e-clip port
Power consumption- 2 charges (25 MD attacks per short e-clip)
DC value- 25 MDC
Special features-none
Market value- 15000 cr


The question I have is if a player with SN got one, should I add the laser damage to his punch damage when he uses it?
(I am most likly going to use the optional rule for breaking the weapon.


Yes, it should stack.

Also, check out the Bang Hammers I wrote up a while back.
Similar principle.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=135151&p=2615462&hilit=Wilk%27s+hammer#p2615462

My games do not lack in custom weapons I use house rules to allow players to make their own gear.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by taalismn »

Blue_Lion wrote:
taalismn wrote:I'd use the Gargoyle Blast Knuckles(Plasma) instead of a laser...laser implies breakable optics...not optimal for a blunt force weapon.

I would think that MD optics would be fairly hard to break.
Also the laser lens is not what strikes the target.

The hammer represents a possible addaptation of rifts tech that should be possible for a weapons eng to build.


Lens doesn't have to come into direct contact with the target...conveyed shock would be enough, unless your hammer's filled with shock insulation....that might cut into the overall weight, density, and striking power you get from mass.
I still figure you'd be regularly servicing(realigning and polishing) the lens...even if you set the lens back from the striking face, you're still going to be getting some backscatter from superheated targets...liquified material popping off and resolidifying into flying shrapnel. Stuff that can hot the lensing.

I see MDC glass/optics like plexiglass..enough hard treatment, and you start getting frosting. The material might not break or warp, but the surface going to get scratched up over time, and that's going to mess with focal clarity and light diffusion.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:So a question is going to come up based on a custom weapon from my games.

Impact Laser war hammer.
It is a war hammer that has a laser built inside the head that when the switch on the handle is in the on position will fire a short range laser when something strikes the face of the hammer.
Stats
name-Skyhook Laser hammer
WP used-blunt
Range-Mellee
Class- physical when used as a blunt weapon or energy damage when the laser is used.
DMG-Blunt weapon 2d4 sdc; Laser when turned on 2d6 MD per hit
Power supply- e-clip port
Power consumption- 2 charges (25 MD attacks per short e-clip)
DC value- 25 MDC
Special features-none
Market value- 15000 cr


The question I have is if a player with SN got one, should I add the laser damage to his punch damage when he uses it?
(I am most likly going to use the optional rule for breaking the weapon.


Yes, it should stack.

Also, check out the Bang Hammers I wrote up a while back.
Similar principle.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=135151&p=2615462&hilit=Wilk%27s+hammer#p2615462

My games do not lack in custom weapons I use house rules to allow players to make their own gear.


Like I told the bleeding doctor, suture yourself.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by dragonfett »

Reading this inspired me of my own custom made weapon. Take 36 Vibro-Blades in a 6x6 configurations, secured together on the end of a weapon haft and rigged to activate all 36 Vibro-Blades by a single switch on the weapon haft.

So should the damage be 36d6?
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

dragonfett wrote:Reading this inspired me of my own custom made weapon. Take 36 Vibro-Blades in a 6x6 configurations, secured together on the end of a weapon haft and rigged to activate all 36 Vibro-Blades by a single switch on the weapon haft.

So should the damage be 36d6?

Probably not. Though this is Palladium, you might want to look at multi-bladed claws vs single/fewer-blades to make sure.

Blue_Lion wrote:
taalismn wrote:I'd use the Gargoyle Blast Knuckles(Plasma) instead of a laser...laser implies breakable optics...not optimal for a blunt force weapon.

I would think that MD optics would be fairly hard to break.
Also the laser lens is not what strikes the target.

The hammer represents a possible addaptation of rifts tech that should be possible for a weapons eng to build.

There is also the example of the Glitterboy's laser drills being located in the foot/lower leg taking all that walking "shock". So I agree you'd probably be safe.

As to the original question, SN PS for the melee strike damage, but it isn't influenced by the laser. If you are worried about the weapon breaking, it could be made from MDC materials (which IIRC would negate the issue entirely, plus there are examples of MDC melee weapons doing SDC damage IINM)
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by taalismn »

dragonfett wrote:Reading this inspired me of my own custom made weapon. Take 36 Vibro-Blades in a 6x6 configurations, secured together on the end of a weapon haft and rigged to activate all 36 Vibro-Blades by a single switch on the weapon haft.

So should the damage be 36d6?


TW version? Add Spinning Blades to it...EACH blade. Figure out how to set off each ensorcelled blade AT ONCE. Yeah, the PPE cost mounts, but at full power?
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-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

dragonfett wrote:Reading this inspired me of my own custom made weapon. Take 36 Vibro-Blades in a 6x6 configurations, secured together on the end of a weapon haft and rigged to activate all 36 Vibro-Blades by a single switch on the weapon haft.

So should the damage be 36d6?


Yes.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

ShadowLogan wrote:
dragonfett wrote:Reading this inspired me of my own custom made weapon. Take 36 Vibro-Blades in a 6x6 configurations, secured together on the end of a weapon haft and rigged to activate all 36 Vibro-Blades by a single switch on the weapon haft.

So should the damage be 36d6?

Probably not. Though this is Palladium, you might want to look at multi-bladed claws vs single/fewer-blades to make sure.

Blue_Lion wrote:
taalismn wrote:I'd use the Gargoyle Blast Knuckles(Plasma) instead of a laser...laser implies breakable optics...not optimal for a blunt force weapon.

I would think that MD optics would be fairly hard to break.
Also the laser lens is not what strikes the target.

The hammer represents a possible addaptation of rifts tech that should be possible for a weapons eng to build.

There is also the example of the Glitterboy's laser drills being located in the foot/lower leg taking all that walking "shock". So I agree you'd probably be safe.

As to the original question, SN PS for the melee strike damage, but it isn't influenced by the laser. If you are worried about the weapon breaking, it could be made from MDC materials (which IIRC would negate the issue entirely, plus there are examples of MDC melee weapons doing SDC damage IINM)

Weapon breaking form sn PS is covered on page 286 of RUE. Being made of MDC does not make it immune to breaking. Any time damage is more than 5 times the weapons base damage there is a 30% of breaking.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

@Blue_Lion
It should be noted though that pg286 rule you refer to is in bold letters "Optional Rule:", so a GM is free to ignore it (players not so much). Text also describes it as "Normal Weapons", which an MDC built weapon would not be IINM. A slightly longer version of the passage appears in Rifts Conversion Book 1 Revised (pg11), it includes an example (which doesn't include risk of breaking, which is an optional rule, with a known MDC object).

Consider this though, in WB5 (possibly elsewhere, I just know its here) the Gargoyles have melee weapons that do damage plus the SN PS, but no mention on the risk of it breaking due to the SN PS (granted that is an optional rule), so the Gargoyles would be breaking a lot of melee weapons if that rule is used with their weapons.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

ShadowLogan wrote:@Blue_Lion
It should be noted though that pg286 rule you refer to is in bold letters "Optional Rule:", so a GM is free to ignore it (players not so much). Text also describes it as "Normal Weapons", which an MDC built weapon would not be IINM. A slightly longer version of the passage appears in Rifts Conversion Book 1 Revised (pg11), it includes an example (which doesn't include risk of breaking, which is an optional rule, with a known MDC object).

Consider this though, in WB5 (possibly elsewhere, I just know its here) the Gargoyles have melee weapons that do damage plus the SN PS, but no mention on the risk of it breaking due to the SN PS (granted that is an optional rule), so the Gargoyles would be breaking a lot of melee weapons if that rule is used with their weapons.

Points to the first post where I said it was my game and said I was using it.

Your opinion on MDC weapons is rejected as if you read the last sentence they say magical weapon are immune that implies that normal is non-magical, so MDC weapons would still break at 3-5X damage. Being MDC does not mean they can be used with unlimited force with no risk the risk is imposed when you go beyound the force the weapon was designed to withstand.

The Gargoyle weapons in WB 5 do not disprove the breaking rule because.
A-the max base damage code was written to include SN PS so you can not do 3X sn punch damage with SN PS.
B-they where written under a different set of rules for SN and weapons.

Now then A shows a weapon can be designed for SN PS but does not mean all MDC are and in addition such weapons are giant sized thus better able to deal with impact force than a human sized war hammer. There is more to a gargoyles melee weapon than just being a MDC rod. Simply put the gargoyle weapons are some what unique in design that they allow SN PS + WP in currant rules.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

taalismn wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
taalismn wrote:I'd use the Gargoyle Blast Knuckles(Plasma) instead of a laser...laser implies breakable optics...not optimal for a blunt force weapon.

I would think that MD optics would be fairly hard to break.
Also the laser lens is not what strikes the target.

The hammer represents a possible addaptation of rifts tech that should be possible for a weapons eng to build.


Lens doesn't have to come into direct contact with the target...conveyed shock would be enough, unless your hammer's filled with shock insulation....that might cut into the overall weight, density, and striking power you get from mass.
I still figure you'd be regularly servicing(realigning and polishing) the lens...even if you set the lens back from the striking face, you're still going to be getting some backscatter from superheated targets...liquified material popping off and resolidifying into flying shrapnel. Stuff that can hot the lensing.

I see MDC glass/optics like plexiglass..enough hard treatment, and you start getting frosting. The material might not break or warp, but the surface going to get scratched up over time, and that's going to mess with focal clarity and light diffusion.

I generally assume all weapons need some sort of regular maintenance. That would very well include cleaning and appling special scratch resistance coating to laser lenses.(honestly I think you are over thinking this)

Lasers may not be the most ideal weapons for melee weapons but part of this was about extending ancient weapons that can do MD without the need of magic using standard/common rifts tech. Ion tends to be bulkier and may have similar problems to laser depending on how they focus the carrier wave. Particle and plasma are not common in pistol size. Given the lighter weight of MDC material it is already likely that there is a need to add something to the head to maintain weight for sdc strikes, so wanted to keep the size down as much as I could.

The best types of energy for impact weapons would likely be sound/sonic and electric/arc. Both are not common MD weapons.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Normal weapons….. as the text says, when taken 'as a whole', are mundane (non-magical) melee weapons.
(Modern weapons are considered to be Blunt Weapons when used as melee weapons unless there is some sort of bayonet on them….then they are spears.)

So according to the text, unless the melee weapon is some sort of magical weapon it is a "normal" weapon. I would go farther and say that the magic weapon has to be indestructible to be immune to possible breakage. (i.e.: those magic stuff with a DC value, can be broken.)

I did note in my earlier post about using this rule if the damage done was high enough.

Now the Gargoyle weapons are in a book (WB 5)that was written long before RUE was published.

The rule's text, while I don't have the two text to compare side by side right this moment, I suspect that the RUE text is a lightly edited version of the original text found in the PF2 setting books (I think it is in the PF2 MB…but not sure.) And there, all non-magical weapons are ""normal"" weapons that are also weapons with a SDC value (& do SD).
However, for the Rifts setting, MD weapons are the norm. So when viewed from a Rifts perspective, the Rule in RUE is talking about both weapons with a SDC value and those with a MDC value. Of course, weapons with a SDC value such as a non-magical long sword with 230 SDC, will be more easily broken by a Char with SNPS """in Rifts""" then in a SDC setting.
Having a MDC sword (that is a Sword made out of MDC materials) it would just be harder for SNPS chars to break.

Yes, those chars with a low SNPS score will find it hard to break a MDC sword with say 184 MDC cause their low SNPS damage rating does not let them. Just like how the same chars would find it difficult to break SDC sword in a SDC setting.


It is more likely that the laser's optics are damaged then any thing of the rest of the hammer. It might be that the MDC value stated would be the Value of the laser' optics then the hammer head itself.
(a reference someone might cite is the MAgic K in mystic russia. Might have hammers there that have a MDC value. stops here due to a headache coming on)
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by guardiandashi »

while a laser enhanced warhammer might be possible, if I was making it, I would do something more like the hammer in the movie "steel" with shaq. Basically a dual purpose weapon that is a MDC warhammer, with a laser barrel, either in the head kinda dumb, or in the handle with the barrel "muzzle" being the base of the handle, and a set of controls to popout a set of sights (or projected holographic/HUD sights) and a trigger or trigger contact that enables when its put into "gun mode".

for a blunt/crushing weapon like a warhammer, my first thoughts for enhancers would be "neural mace function", electrical shock, some kind of "vibro" type effect, plasma, or explosive, like the "knuckle boomers" from bubble gum. that is if you are trying to enhance the actual hammer effectiveness, of course in some ways the "knuckle boomer" type effect say putting a series of impact triggered explosive charges essentially explosive bullets in little indents in the "head" that are typically "individually armed" and then triggered by successful strikes makes a certain amount of sense. for particularly obnoxious people make a version designed to use neruni plasma cartridge rounds and you essentially have a 1d4X10 mdc landmine on a stick that you hit people with.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Blue_Lion wrote:Now then A shows a weapon can be designed for SN PS but does not mean all MDC are and in addition such weapons are giant sized thus better able to deal with impact force than a human sized war hammer. There is more to a gargoyles melee weapon than just being a MDC rod. Simply put the gargoyle weapons are some what unique in design that they allow SN PS + WP in currant rules.

But they are not the only one:
-Neuro-Mace's are MDC structures able to parry MD or SD attacks without breaking and they do SD/HP when unenergized, nothing is said for stacking it with SN PS but it can take the strain of a MD melee level force without causing damage (since parrying with a weapon does no damage to the weapon itself), so I would think that putting MD level strength behind it won't break it
-Kisentite in SB4 (exotic material, but isn't magical) also benefits from being MDC materials and stacking SN PS, and there is no note of "breaking"
-Obsedi RCC (DBofNA pg153) has a stone weapon (which can be maul) that adds to SN PS punch damage (they have SN PS when in Berserker mode, otherwise Robotic), though the weapon is described as "supernaturally strong"

Using SN PS breaking rule with your laser impact hammer means that 30% of the time the weapon will break on each hit when using a full strength punch. You would be rolling that for each time it gets used, which would slow things down, so some modification of the rule by the weapon's design/construction might be advisable to certain situations.

Blue_Lion wrote:Lasers may not be the most ideal weapons for melee weapons but part of this was about extending ancient weapons that can do MD without the need of magic using standard/common rifts tech

What about using Plasma Cartridges or CTF Cartridges as a type of "shaped explosive charge" that goes off with impact. The main issue is how to reload the thing after every strike as the cartridge will be spent and need to be replaced.

Blue_Lion wrote:Particle and plasma are not common in pistol size

That might be pushing for to much miniaturization IMHO. You could put the hardware into the shaft with a "beam deflector" in the head, which would open up your options. The Kittani have miniaturized plasma technology though given their plasma melee weapons.

Blue_Lion wrote:The best types of energy for impact weapons would likely be sound/sonic and electric/arc. Both are not common MD weapons.

Sonic weapons are extremely rare in Rifts (and it's associated dimensions) AFAIK, you might even be able to count all the instances on one or two hands.

Electric style attacks are more common than you think given that we have Neuro-maces in at least 3 geographic regions (Japan, North America, Europe). So I'd say they are a common weapon technology (but it could depend on where you want to have this hammer), just not one commonly used for doing MD damage. And to do MD while energized typically (if not exclusively) requires the giant-robot-sized version AFAIK.

Warlords of Russia has an "Energy Hammers" for 'borgs (Thunder-Hammer/Strike Cyborgs), Triax 2 also introduces another type of energized mace.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

In rifts/3G the only sonic weapon that I can think of that does MD is a Bot weapon in the Japan WB. So the term 'vanishingly rare' is more apt when describing how common sonic weapons are in Rifts and the 3G.

The only other 'sonic' weapons that I can think of are sonic stunners, disrupters and blasters in HU:AU (all of which only do SD or impose penalties) and the component and mega weapon(s) in the RT ed 1 book Lancer's Rockers (don't rightly remember what sort of damage they do).
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In rifts/3G the only sonic weapon that I can think of that does MD is a Bot weapon in the Japan WB. So the term 'vanishingly rare' is more apt when describing how common sonic weapons are in Rifts and the 3G.

The only other 'sonic' weapons that I can think of are sonic stunners, disrupters and blasters in HU:AU (all of which only do SD or impose penalties) and the component and mega weapon(s) in the RT ed 1 book Lancer's Rockers (don't rightly remember what sort of damage they do).

Sonic Weapons appear in Underseas (pg191 as tech, TW/magic on pg166 & pg153), South America 2 (pg170 as tech), Fed of Magic (or BoM, as a TW Rifle) in addition to Japan.

Otherwise you have to go with spells (Sonic Blast for ex, no others come to mind)

SB1o had a sonic repellent, and Triax2 offers up a sonic stun device.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:Now then A shows a weapon can be designed for SN PS but does not mean all MDC are and in addition such weapons are giant sized thus better able to deal with impact force than a human sized war hammer. There is more to a gargoyles melee weapon than just being a MDC rod. Simply put the gargoyle weapons are some what unique in design that they allow SN PS + WP in currant rules.

But they are not the only one:
-Neuro-Mace's are MDC structures able to parry MD or SD attacks without breaking and they do SD/HP when unenergized, nothing is said for stacking it with SN PS but it can take the strain of a MD melee level force without causing damage (since parrying with a weapon does no damage to the weapon itself), so I would think that putting MD level strength behind it won't break it
-Kisentite in SB4 (exotic material, but isn't magical) also benefits from being MDC materials and stacking SN PS, and there is no note of "breaking"
-Obsedi RCC (DBofNA pg153) has a stone weapon (which can be maul) that adds to SN PS punch damage (they have SN PS when in Berserker mode, otherwise Robotic), though the weapon is described as "supernaturally strong"

Using SN PS breaking rule with your laser impact hammer means that 30% of the time the weapon will break on each hit when using a full strength punch. You would be rolling that for each time it gets used, which would slow things down, so some modification of the rule by the weapon's design/construction might be advisable to certain situations.



Blue_Lion wrote:Lasers may not be the most ideal weapons for melee weapons but part of this was about extending ancient weapons that can do MD without the need of magic using standard/common rifts tech

What about using Plasma Cartridges or CTF Cartridges as a type of "shaped explosive charge" that goes off with impact. The main issue is how to reload the thing after every strike as the cartridge will be spent and need to be replaced.

Blue_Lion wrote:Particle and plasma are not common in pistol size

That might be pushing for to much miniaturization IMHO. You could put the hardware into the shaft with a "beam deflector" in the head, which would open up your options. The Kittani have miniaturized plasma technology though given their plasma melee weapons.

Blue_Lion wrote:The best types of energy for impact weapons would likely be sound/sonic and electric/arc. Both are not common MD weapons.

Sonic weapons are extremely rare in Rifts (and it's associated dimensions) AFAIK, you might even be able to count all the instances on one or two hands.

Electric style attacks are more common than you think given that we have Neuro-maces in at least 3 geographic regions (Japan, North America, Europe). So I'd say they are a common weapon technology (but it could depend on where you want to have this hammer), just not one commonly used for doing MD damage. And to do MD while energized typically (if not exclusively) requires the giant-robot-sized version AFAIK.

Warlords of Russia has an "Energy Hammers" for 'borgs (Thunder-Hammer/Strike Cyborgs), Triax 2 also introduces another type of energized mace.

Parring does not mean the weapon takes the full force of the attack just has to move the attack away from you. The rule for breaking is for inflicting more damage than the weapon can handle. When you parry the weapon is not likely to take the full force unlike blocking with a shield where the shield absorbs the force of the attack.

Some what unique was because weapon with SN in the damage code are not standard. You still did not provide anything that says a MDC weapon is immune to breaking. (instead bringing up more cases of weapons that either do not do MDC or have SN built in the damage code.)

It seams you missed what I ment by common rifts tech.
Plasma cartiges are some what rare only 1 source there is also only one source for the CFT cartrages they are not common tech that any weapon engineer can be expected to be able to make. Use of such weapons would have a very limited payload.

The nero mace right up never specify the weapon uses an electrical discharge just that it discharges energy. It also is not a MD attack, so that is the whole point. Electric/arc weapons are even rarer than sonic if I recall right the only one I can think of is in Triax.

In the rules I use for creation of weapons a weapon is either common tech or uncommon/exotic. Sound/sonic and electric/MD energy weapons are not common that means they are treated as exotic by weapons engineers making weapons.

The weapon from warlords of russia and triax 2 are not common in NA. Skyhook is a custom NA equipment maker started by one of my old charters. So it would not be reasonable to have them make non-NA weapons.
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Normal weapons….. as the text says, when taken 'as a whole', are mundane (non-magical) melee weapons.
(Modern weapons are considered to be Blunt Weapons when used as melee weapons unless there is some sort of bayonet on them….then they are spears.)

So according to the text, unless the melee weapon is some sort of magical weapon it is a "normal" weapon. I would go farther and say that the magic weapon has to be indestructible to be immune to possible breakage. (i.e.: those magic stuff with a DC value, can be broken.)

I did note in my earlier post about using this rule if the damage done was high enough.

Now the Gargoyle weapons are in a book (WB 5)that was written long before RUE was published.

The rule's text, while I don't have the two text to compare side by side right this moment, I suspect that the RUE text is a lightly edited version of the original text found in the PF2 setting books (I think it is in the PF2 MB…but not sure.) And there, all non-magical weapons are ""normal"" weapons that are also weapons with a SDC value (& do SD).
However, for the Rifts setting, MD weapons are the norm. So when viewed from a Rifts perspective, the Rule in RUE is talking about both weapons with a SDC value and those with a MDC value. Of course, weapons with a SDC value such as a non-magical long sword with 230 SDC, will be more easily broken by a Char with SNPS """in Rifts""" then in a SDC setting.
Having a MDC sword (that is a Sword made out of MDC materials) it would just be harder for SNPS chars to break.

Yes, those chars with a low SNPS score will find it hard to break a MDC sword with say 184 MDC cause their low SNPS damage rating does not let them. Just like how the same chars would find it difficult to break SDC sword in a SDC setting.


It is more likely that the laser's optics are damaged then any thing of the rest of the hammer. It might be that the MDC value stated would be the Value of the laser' optics then the hammer head itself.
(a reference someone might cite is the MAgic K in mystic russia. Might have hammers there that have a MDC value. stops here due to a headache coming on)

I think you might want to look at the rule it is when you accede the damage the weapon normally inflicts not the MD it is made of. So if a weapon normally does 2d6 SDC doing 36 or more SDC will cause a 30% chance to break. A well made highly durable weapon would break at 5x times max base damage.

(You are assuming the breaking point is when damage is greater than the weapons MDC but that is not how the rule in question is written in RUE.)
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I just compared the two SN damage and hand weapons text and besides an incidental change that does not change the meaning of the text, the two text are the same.

And as such the PB staff did not modified the rule to take in consideration that MDC and SDC stuff are different.

While the rule should not have much difference if the weapon is MDC and the damage being done is MD or the weapon is SDC and the damage is being done is SD (e.g.:very low SNPS damage or most restrained SNPS strikes). However, it does not directly cover the I'm using a SDC weapon and making MD strikes. Which are essentially auto-weapon-breaks under the rules as rules as written because of the 100 to 1 ratio between SD and MD. It makes the weapon 'Not Breaking' the Odd outcome.

Then there is the 'how do you calculate the math is the MDC sword only does SD?' considerations. Is it x3/x5 times the rated SD or x3/x5(x??) of the rated damage score in MD?


Then how do you determine what sort of MDC melee weapons counts as high quality to use the x5 in the math?
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I just compared the two SN damage and hand weapons text and besides an incidental change that does not change the meaning of the text, the two text are the same.

And as such the PB staff did not modified the rule to take in consideration that MDC and SDC stuff are different.

While the rule should not have much difference if the weapon is MDC and the damage being done is MD or the weapon is SDC and the damage is being done is SD (e.g.:very low SNPS damage or most restrained SNPS strikes). However, it does not directly cover the I'm using a SDC weapon and making MD strikes. Which are essentially auto-weapon-breaks under the rules as rules as written because of the 100 to 1 ratio between SD and MD. It makes the weapon 'Not Breaking' the Odd outcome.

Then there is the 'how do you calculate the math is the MDC sword only does SD?' considerations. Is it x3/x5 times the rated SD or x3/x5(x??) of the rated damage score in MD?


Then how do you determine what sort of MDC melee weapons counts as high quality to use the x5 in the math?

When they talk about it in the rule they do not specify the type of damage.

(Personally I would rule for a weapon made of MDC material the damage should be 3x-5x what it max damage would be treated as MDC while a sdc material weapon I would go off the sdc max damage as sdc. But that is really more of a house rule than RAW.)
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Blue_Lion wrote:Parring does not mean the weapon takes the full force of the attack just has to move the attack away from you. The rule for breaking is for inflicting more damage than the weapon can handle. When you parry the weapon is not likely to take the full force unlike blocking with a shield where the shield absorbs the force of the attack.

I agree Parrying doesn't take the full force of the blow, BUT you can not use an SDC item to parry an MDC attack without it breaking is implied by the bit in the Neuro-mace writeup about its construction and parrying value (repeated elsewhere to). SDC weapons are considered "normal", not super tough like MDC (that goes back to the RMB description of MD/MDC).

Blue_Lion wrote:It seams you missed what I ment by common rifts tech.
Plasma cartiges are some what rare only 1 source there is also only one source for the CFT cartrages they are not common tech that any weapon engineer can be expected to be able to make. Use of such weapons would have a very limited payload.

While Plasma and CTF cartridges have availability issues, that doesn't mean you have to use them exactly in the construction as there are other cartridge weapons available in NA (like exploding bullets, ramjets, a Triax Round that even the CS knocks off, Bigbore, etc) that could stand-in conceptually.

Limited payload was something I noted, but probably something that could be addressed in the design.

As for "commonality" to a specific region, but not others, I was pointing those out to give you canon examples of similar type weapons you could model after. It isn't like a manufacture in NA couldn't knock off something from a foreign land (even if they only have a single/few examples to work from)

Blue_Lion wrote:The nero mace right up never specify the weapon uses an electrical discharge just that it discharges energy. It also is not a MD attack, so that is the whole point. Electric/arc weapons are even rarer than sonic if I recall right the only one I can think of is in Triax.

The nuero-mace from the CS entry doesn't specify the energy discharge type but it is implied to be electricity IMHO as it "short circuits the nervous system", however I would put several things in the same category with the Neuro-mace, and some of them DO specify electricity and use the same saving throw (non-lethal poison) and a few of them even have MD attacks:
-WB5 "Electro-Mace" (pg150, pg78, pg75) which can be electrically charged (in one mode), used by Triax 'Bots and Gargoyles pg212 (noted as used by, no modifers for use, but we know the weapon is MDC from the X-2500 MDC by location)
-WB5 Blaster Neural Whip (uses terms like jolt, shock which is commonly connected to electricity)
-WB13's Electro-Stunners (pg49-50) which specify electric nature of the attack (no MD attack, but the Robot mounted version in WB11 pg142 does)
-WB10's Neural Disrupter Rifle (pg80) that fires electricity, though this is a RIFLE and not a melee weapon, it is still a stun weapon
-WB8's AT-23 Police Stun Rifle (pg123-4) that specifies electricity to stun its victim (a rifle yes, and one with MD setting)
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Re: Impact laser war hammer question.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:Parring does not mean the weapon takes the full force of the attack just has to move the attack away from you. The rule for breaking is for inflicting more damage than the weapon can handle. When you parry the weapon is not likely to take the full force unlike blocking with a shield where the shield absorbs the force of the attack.

I agree Parrying doesn't take the full force of the blow, BUT you can not use an SDC item to parry an MDC attack without it breaking is implied by the bit in the Neuro-mace writeup about its construction and parrying value (repeated elsewhere to). SDC weapons are considered "normal", not super tough like MDC (that goes back to the RMB description of MD/MDC).

Blue_Lion wrote:It seams you missed what I ment by common rifts tech.
Plasma cartiges are some what rare only 1 source there is also only one source for the CFT cartrages they are not common tech that any weapon engineer can be expected to be able to make. Use of such weapons would have a very limited payload.

While Plasma and CTF cartridges have availability issues, that doesn't mean you have to use them exactly in the construction as there are other cartridge weapons available in NA (like exploding bullets, ramjets, a Triax Round that even the CS knocks off, Bigbore, etc) that could stand-in conceptually.

Limited payload was something I noted, but probably something that could be addressed in the design.

As for "commonality" to a specific region, but not others, I was pointing those out to give you canon examples of similar type weapons you could model after. It isn't like a manufacture in NA couldn't knock off something from a foreign land (even if they only have a single/few examples to work from)

Blue_Lion wrote:The nero mace right up never specify the weapon uses an electrical discharge just that it discharges energy. It also is not a MD attack, so that is the whole point. Electric/arc weapons are even rarer than sonic if I recall right the only one I can think of is in Triax.

The nuero-mace from the CS entry doesn't specify the energy discharge type but it is implied to be electricity IMHO as it "short circuits the nervous system", however I would put several things in the same category with the Neuro-mace, and some of them DO specify electricity and use the same saving throw (non-lethal poison) and a few of them even have MD attacks:
-WB5 "Electro-Mace" (pg150, pg78, pg75) which can be electrically charged (in one mode), used by Triax 'Bots and Gargoyles pg212 (noted as used by, no modifers for use, but we know the weapon is MDC from the X-2500 MDC by location)
-WB5 Blaster Neural Whip (uses terms like jolt, shock which is commonly connected to electricity)
-WB13's Electro-Stunners (pg49-50) which specify electric nature of the attack (no MD attack, but the Robot mounted version in WB11 pg142 does)
-WB10's Neural Disrupter Rifle (pg80) that fires electricity, though this is a RIFLE and not a melee weapon, it is still a stun weapon
-WB8's AT-23 Police Stun Rifle (pg123-4) that specifies electricity to stun its victim (a rifle yes, and one with MD setting)

Jolt and shock are commonly used with more than electricity. You are over reaching. If the affect was do to electricity the lighting bolt spell and arc cannons that triax has would have a similar affect. The fact they use nero-mace and not stun button means that it is less likly to be talking about the blunt weapon that uses electricity stun button.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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