Cyber-Knights: What do they fully work against...

[HWalsh]

My point was the type of melee weapon is irreverent to weather or not a juicer get the penalty. Even the original poster claims the CK powers work fully with v-blades but they do not. I just tired of seeing people presenting it as the type of melee weapon as making any difference.

In-fact looking at what the -2 applies to-power armor, robots, combat vehicles, cyborg systems, all energy weapons and any weapon utilizing sensors or optics systems as well as tw guns and other tw machines. Now then while a juicers implant they are cyber ware they are generally not a cyborg systems so the -2 would not apply for that. In addition it says the penalty does not apply to hand held weapons such as v blades so the penalty of -2 does not apply to the juicer at all in melee combat as there is no non organic optical or mechanical assistance to the attack.

Now then looking at the bonus to initiative, the machine is not launching an attack it just pumping drugs. so yea he might know the juicer is getting pumped up with pain killers Adrenalin and steroids to fight but will that translate into reading what is organic muscles are doing?

Now then what bonus comes straight from a weapon or machine for a juicer so they can be negated? I was under the impresion that most the bonuses are from drugs and hormones. That the juicer is on most of the time but combat triggers a higher level. The bonuses to me are from chemical augmention of organics not mechnical or electronic augmention. (It might be like saying the cyber knight reduces bonuses to save from getting sick if you have a artificial heart or kidney.)

Blue, my main area of opinion is that number 3 applies.

I've a Juicer is 100% absolutely tech laden.

[Blue_Lion]

My point was the type of melee weapon is irreverent to weather or not a juicer get the penalty. Even the original poster claims the CK powers work fully with v-blades but they do not. I just tired of seeing people presenting it as the type of melee weapon as making any difference.

In-fact looking at what the -2 applies to-power armor, robots, combat vehicles, cyborg systems, all energy weapons and any weapon utilizing sensors or optics systems as well as tw guns and other tw machines. Now then while a juicers implant they are cyber ware they are generally not a cyborg systems so the -2 would not apply for that. In addition it says the penalty does not apply to hand held weapons such as v blades so the penalty of -2 does not apply to the juicer at all in melee combat as there is no non organic optical or mechanical assistance to the attack.

Now then looking at the bonus to initiative, the machine is not launching an attack it just pumping drugs. so yea he might know the juicer is getting pumped up with pain killers Adrenalin and steroids to fight but will that translate into reading what is organic muscles are doing?

Now then what bonus comes straight from a weapon or machine for a juicer so they can be negated? I was under the impresion that most the bonuses are from drugs and hormones. That the juicer is on most of the time but combat triggers a higher level. The bonuses to me are from chemical augmention of organics not mechnical or electronic augmention. (It might be like saying the cyber knight reduces bonuses to save from getting sick if you have a artificial heart or kidney.)

Blue, my main area of opinion is that number 3 applies.

I've a Juicer is 100% absolutely tech laden.

Really so which of the listed things the -2 is said to apply to mechanically is a juicers?
Because last time I checked they are not power armor, robot, combat vehicle, cyborg system, all energy weapons or a weapon utilizing sensors or optics systems. The defined what the penalty applies to in the rule. PG 66. Now they could use 1 of those but they are not inherently any of the things listed.

PG 66 RUE-"Note the penalties apply to power armor, robots, combat vehicles, cyborg systems, all energy weapons, and any weapon utilizing sensors or optic systems as welll as Techno-wizard "guns" and other TW machines."(it is almost like they are defining tech laden as it applies to this power)

So the book list the penalties as limited to just certain classes of things much smaller than the list of things a CK gets a bonus against. So the question becomes simply -is a juicer counted as one of the classes of things that get a penatly?
PA-No
robot-no
combat vehicle-no
cyborg system-no they are not counted as cyborgs not even partial
energy weapon-no
weapon with mechanical or eoptical aiming-no
TW-no

Conclusion Juicers are not any of the listed categories of things that use of get a penalties from CK. Now they can and do use some of those things but they are not in of themselves one of those things.

You can be in computerized hacking EBA and swinging a V-blade and not get a penalty from a CK.

[HWalsh]

My point was the type of melee weapon is irreverent to weather or not a juicer get the penalty. Even the original poster claims the CK powers work fully with v-blades but they do not. I just tired of seeing people presenting it as the type of melee weapon as making any difference.

In-fact looking at what the -2 applies to-power armor, robots, combat vehicles, cyborg systems, all energy weapons and any weapon utilizing sensors or optics systems as well as tw guns and other tw machines. Now then while a juicers implant they are cyber ware they are generally not a cyborg systems so the -2 would not apply for that. In addition it says the penalty does not apply to hand held weapons such as v blades so the penalty of -2 does not apply to the juicer at all in melee combat as there is no non organic optical or mechanical assistance to the attack.

Now then looking at the bonus to initiative, the machine is not launching an attack it just pumping drugs. so yea he might know the juicer is getting pumped up with pain killers Adrenalin and steroids to fight but will that translate into reading what is organic muscles are doing?

Now then what bonus comes straight from a weapon or machine for a juicer so they can be negated? I was under the impresion that most the bonuses are from drugs and hormones. That the juicer is on most of the time but combat triggers a higher level. The bonuses to me are from chemical augmention of organics not mechnical or electronic augmention. (It might be like saying the cyber knight reduces bonuses to save from getting sick if you have a artificial heart or kidney.)

Blue, my main area of opinion is that number 3 applies.

I've a Juicer is 100% absolutely tech laden.

Really so which of the listed things the -2 is said to apply to mechanically is a juicers?
Because last time I checked they are not power armor, robot, combat vehicle, cyborg system, all energy weapons or a weapon utilizing sensors or optics systems. The defined what the penalty applies to in the rule. PG 66. Now they could use 1 of those but they are not inherently any of the things listed.

PG 66 RUE-"Note the penalties apply to power armor, robots, combat vehicles, cyborg systems, all energy weapons, and any weapon utilizing sensors or optic systems as welll as Techno-wizard "guns" and other TW machines."(it is almost like they are defining tech laden as it applies to this power)

So the book list the penalties as limited to just certain classes of things much smaller than the list of things a CK gets a bonus against. So the question becomes simply -is a juicer counted as one of the classes of things that get a penatly?
PA-No
robot-no
combat vehicle-no
cyborg system-no they are not counted as cyborgs not even partial
energy weapon-no
weapon with mechanical or eoptical aiming-no
TW-no

Conclusion Juicers are not any of the listed categories of things that use of get a penalties from CK. Now they can and do use some of those things but they are not in of themselves one of those things.

You can be in computerized hacking EBA and swinging a V-blade and not get a penalty from a CK.

There are mulitple negatives I think is the problem:

Here are the ones that would apply to a Juicer typically, providing they were not using a firearm which adds a whole new set of problems (On a CK of below 8th) and providing that your GM is *not* considering a vibroblade an "advanced weapon." The Vibroblade *is* an advanced weapon for the purposes of detecting it, explicitly, on page 65. Page 66 has the 9th level power be an exemption. So this is the contention point.

We all seem to agree that:
-3 to Dodge
-2 Melee Attacks per Round

Is not in contention.

The other negatives are assuming the CK is 8th level...

At 8th level things change:

Under the 8th level a Juicer would have
-2 to Strike the Knight
-2 to Dodge the Knight
and -1 Melee Attack per Round

[Axelmania]

Walsh that list is inclusive not exclusive. Things not listed there can still be effective.

Vibro Blades for example are explicitly listed under basic combat awareness along with environmental armor and.neural maces.

I would suggest.in this thread we invent the term TJuicer to refer to technology based juicers in acknowledging the Song Juicer and Splugorth Juicer who aren't tech based and wouldn't have a problem with cyberknights. Even though.JU 53 says.it combines "high technogy" this appears.to.just refer to genetic engineering which I think falls outside the purvue... Otherwise cybrrknights would get their abilities against nude dog boys.

I think Dragon Juicers still would since TW is still tech. Not sure about murder wraiths.

[dreicunan]

My point was the type of melee weapon is irreverent to weather or not a juicer get the penalty. Even the original poster claims the CK powers work fully with v-blades but they do not. I just tired of seeing people presenting it as the type of melee weapon as making any difference.

In-fact looking at what the -2 applies to-power armor, robots, combat vehicles, cyborg systems, all energy weapons and any weapon utilizing sensors or optics systems as well as tw guns and other tw machines. Now then while a juicers implant they are cyber ware they are generally not a cyborg systems so the -2 would not apply for that. In addition it says the penalty does not apply to hand held weapons such as v blades so the penalty of -2 does not apply to the juicer at all in melee combat as there is no non organic optical or mechanical assistance to the attack.

Now then looking at the bonus to initiative, the machine is not launching an attack it just pumping drugs. so yea he might know the juicer is getting pumped up with pain killers Adrenalin and steroids to fight but will that translate into reading what is organic muscles are doing?

Now then what bonus comes straight from a weapon or machine for a juicer so they can be negated? I was under the impresion that most the bonuses are from drugs and hormones. That the juicer is on most of the time but combat triggers a higher level. The bonuses to me are from chemical augmention of organics not mechnical or electronic augmention. (It might be like saying the cyber knight reduces bonuses to save from getting sick if you have a artificial heart or kidney.)

Blue, my main area of opinion is that number 3 applies.

I've a Juicer is 100% absolutely tech laden.

Really so which of the listed things the -2 is said to apply to mechanically is a juicers?
Because last time I checked they are not power armor, robot, combat vehicle, cyborg system, all energy weapons or a weapon utilizing sensors or optics systems. The defined what the penalty applies to in the rule. PG 66. Now they could use 1 of those but they are not inherently any of the things listed.

PG 66 RUE-"Note the penalties apply to power armor, robots, combat vehicles, cyborg systems, all energy weapons, and any weapon utilizing sensors or optic systems as welll as Techno-wizard "guns" and other TW machines."(it is almost like they are defining tech laden as it applies to this power)

So the book list the penalties as limited to just certain classes of things much smaller than the list of things a CK gets a bonus against. So the question becomes simply -is a juicer counted as one of the classes of things that get a penatly?
PA-No
robot-no
combat vehicle-no
cyborg system-no they are not counted as cyborgs not even partial
energy weapon-no
weapon with mechanical or eoptical aiming-no
TW-no

Conclusion Juicers are not any of the listed categories of things that use of get a penalties from CK. Now they can and do use some of those things but they are not in of themselves one of those things.

You can be in computerized hacking EBA and swinging a V-blade and not get a penalty from a CK.

There are mulitple negatives I think is the problem:

Here are the ones that would apply to a Juicer typically, providing they were not using a firearm which adds a whole new set of problems (On a CK of below 8th) and providing that your GM is *not* considering a vibroblade an "advanced weapon." The Vibroblade *is* an advanced weapon for the purposes of detecting it, explicitly, on page 65. Page 66 has the 9th level power be an exemption. So this is the contention point.

We all seem to agree that:
-3 to Dodge
-2 Melee Attacks per Round

Is not in contention.

The other negatives are assuming the CK is 8th level...

At 8th level things change:

Under the 8th level a Juicer would have
-2 to Strike the Knight
-2 to Dodge the Knight
and -1 Melee Attack per Round

Exactly. ANY opponent wielding a vibro-blade, neural mace, or other technological or mechanical melee weapon will trigger the level 4 or level 8 abilities. What they won't trigger is the level 9 cloud targeting ability.

[Axelmania]

Even those penalties only apply if you try to use the sensors instead of eyeballing. Some rules on eyeballing would help though... Would be required if battling a mutant with the major Cloaking poet from Heroes Unlimited.

[HWalsh]

Even those penalties only apply if you try to use the sensors instead of eyeballing. Some rules on eyeballing would help though... Would be required if battling a mutant with the major Cloaking poet from Heroes Unlimited.

Actually, you're thinking of the level 6 ability. The level 6 ability calls out eyeballing. It also has the rules built in for it.

RUE pg. 66

Just don't use the sensor systems. It means you don't get the bonuses you'd normally get for them.

Level 9 has no such "eyeballing' caveat.

[Nightmask]

If you yanked that bio-comp out of the Juicer or otherwise disabled it he'd still have all those bonuses because they're the result of the drugs NOT the bio-comp.

Okay, please show me a citation stating that a Juicer is a Juicer without the Bio-Comp.

See, because I will use book citations.

RUE pg. 80 - The first step to detoxing is to remove the bio-comp and destroy the drug harness. This section goes on to state that without the drugs, the bio-comp still ramps up the juicer enough to kill him/her.

RUE pg. 78 - The first step to becoming a Juicer is to install a bio-comp. Five paragraphs from the top if one is counting the flavor blurb. It even goes on to explain how the bio-comp works by providing minute-to-minute drug doses as needed. Without the bio-comp the Juicer isn't a Juicer as nothing properly regulates the drugs. Juicers don't get the Super Soldier Serum Nightmask. They get a very complex computer that injects drugs every second of the day. Without the Bio-Comp the drugs don't work. Not only is it drugs, it regulates natural endorphin levels as well.

I quote:
"If the body is feeling fatigued, a dose of super EPO synthetic hormone is injected to increase oxygen flow into the blood, which decreases fatigue and increases physical performance by an amazing 16 to 21 percent!"

This is all explaining what the Bio-Comp does. No Bio-Comp, no drugs, no drugs, no Juicer.

The drugs don't make a Juicer. The Bio-Comp controlling the release of drugs make a Juicer.

-----

So let me explains what happens if the Bio-Comp goes offline.

All drugs are cut off. No drugs. The system completely stops working. This isn't like a constant chemical cocktail. They explain, in-depth, how important that Bio-Comp is to making things work.

So, yeah, since it is all implants... They'd have a hard time with Cyber-Knights in a hand to hand fight because, like it or not, they are tech. Tech does everything. From the thousands of small implants, to the Bio-Comp chips that control everything.

So where did you get the idea that somehow if the Bio-Comp stops working then the drugs permeating the person's body IMMEDIATELY stop working? That the drug cocktail that fills them instantly ceases to exist and all their benefits go away if the Bio-Comp fails for some reason. Nowhere in any book do you see it written that the influence of drugs ever vanish like that because they don't. For that matter where do you get the ridiculous idea that the DRUGS (the reason that they're CALLED Juicers) aren't what make the juicer? The drugs that are the most crucial and most required thing for the Juicer because without the drugs they can't BE Juicers? I just can't begin to express how unbelievable it is to hear someone say that the drugs mean nothing and it's the bio-comp that makes them a Juicer.

You're putting WAY too much effort into trying to defend an idea you have to know just isn't valid. You also quite ignored the rest of what I said, since you can't refute the point that the drugs are where all a Juicers bonuses come from, none of them come from the Bio-Comp. Nor can you refute that the anti-tech abilities of a Cyber-Knight can't possibly work against a Juicer because all the examples you give require the ant-tech training to have explicitly biological/physiological awareness that is completely unrelated to technology. There's no way for example the anti-tech power is going to be reading the Bio-Comp increasing Adrenalin levels because machines don't have Adrenalin levels, nor can it even remotely detect those most definitely biological abilities and bonuses that spring from those drugs because they aren't technological. Trying to do so you might as well give the Cyber-Knight its anti-tech bonuses against everyone and everything it meets if you're going to argue their anti-tech training includes completely unrelated anti-biological training.

Under your logic the CK wouldn't work against EBA and it explicitly does. The EBA doesn't do ANYTHING on the level of the Bio-Comp. Also, holy heck Nightmask read the Juicer. They mention the bio comp and implants more than they bring up the drugs.

You're acting like the bio comp just sits there. This is NOT one specific drug. The book explicitly explains the bio comp constantly adjusts and alters EVERYTHING so the first time a Juicer needs an adrenaline burst, no bio comp, no burst. They need a hormone? No bio comp no hormone. They tear a muscle moving too quickly because something didn't release a counteracting agent for the amphetamine that enhances reaction? Tough luck now the Juicer's ripping it's body apart.

The bio comp is so important they explicitly install two of them just in case something goes wrong.

No that is not my logic, that's a strawman you're trying to pin onto it but that's not the case. I've read the Juicer write-up plenty of times, not even a single letter of it makes the Juicer into a creature that's using technology for the Cyber-Knight's anti-tech abilities to react to. Then again you ignored everything else I posted once again. The Bio-Comp provides NO abilities to the Juicer, the Juicer's abilities are from the drugs. The Bio-comp may be what regulates the drugs but its the drugs that are responsible for the things the Juicer can do which is why the anti-tech ability isn't going to work on the non-tech Juicer. Which is completely in keeping with the limitations someone later posts that the Juicer clearly lays outside of.

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't see why being "tech-laden" would be determined by what the technology does, instead of by mass or other factors.

[HWalsh]

No that is not my logic, that's a strawman you're trying to pin onto it but that's not the case. I've read the Juicer write-up plenty of times, not even a single letter of it makes the Juicer into a creature that's using technology for the Cyber-Knight's anti-tech abilities to react to. Then again you ignored everything else I posted once again. The Bio-Comp provides NO abilities to the Juicer, the Juicer's abilities are from the drugs. The Bio-comp may be what regulates the drugs but its the drugs that are responsible for the things the Juicer can do which is why the anti-tech ability isn't going to work on the non-tech Juicer. Which is completely in keeping with the limitations someone later posts that the Juicer clearly lays outside of.

Please show me where, in RUE, it says that tech laden (which is the requirement) means something granting combat bonuses.

EBA doesn't grant combat bonuses and counts.

Do you believe that a Juicer, who has 2 implanted computers, a technological harness that injects drugs that has circuits, chips, and mechanical parts, is not an individual who would not be considered "tech laden?"

Because that is all that is required here.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I'll add in my opinion on the matter.

1: The Juicer implants (neither the bio-comp nor the IRMSS unit) are never referred to as Cybernetics (not that I can find in RUE, at least). I'd suspect that this is because they do not offer direct augmentation to the Juicer. The Crazy's M.O.M. implants however are referred to as Cybernetics.

2: RAW (Rules As Written), Juicers probably technically fall into the category. The list mentions "computers" (the Juicer has two implanted) and "sensors" (the bio-comp technically has sensors, which monitor the Juicer). I'd be very, very hesitant to think that this is RAI (Rules as Intended) though.

3: As an individual, I'd generally rule anything covered by flesh doesn't count. Yes, this means that, in theory, a T-800 could avoid the Cyber-Knight bonuses until you blew off some of that fleshy covering. I'm okay with that (especially since there are not many such options in Rifts, though I think the Wolfen Quatoria in Phase World might qualify and possibly others, but can't recall for sure). Meanwhile things like a cybernetic hand or EBA (outer shell) still register.

4: I find it interesting some people take the view that the Cyber-Knight tampers with the machine in some way. I've never gotten that impression, though I suppose it's possible. I've always went closer to the concept of the Zanshin circle from N&S (at least for the Combat Awareness powers). There's no range limitation on the Cyber-Knight ability, but similar in concept. With Zanshin you sense the opponent's chi. With the Cyber-Knight ability (for Combat Awareness), the character is sensing the unnatural energies and movements of these machines (yes, judging by the wording of some other powers I'd say this would include the crossbow and modern/compound bows in general, but not old fashioned ones).

5: If I were to apply #4 to a Juicer (while ignoring #3), I'd see it being able to effectively sense the Bio-Comp, which is monitoring the Juicer. The Bio-Comp senses the heightened activity of combat, monitors the tensing of muscles in the right arm as it determines whether it needs to make adjustments or not, etc. And because the Bio-Comp is aware of the Juicer's motions, the Cyber-Knight knows intuitively as well. I say "intuitively" because I don't view it as a complex communication and the Cyber-Knight couldn't probably explain the full details if s/he tried, but more of a general awareness that translates to: "Punch from the right arm." If the Cyber-Knight can sense the Bio-Comp, then s/he is probably also aware of the Juicer's general location, and thereby have a really good idea of where the attack is coming from.

6: The ability to Cloud Sensors (and advanced), once again, didn't really feel (to me) as the Cyber-Knight controlling the information, but more like an aura around the Cyber-Knight that disrupts sensors directed at him/her. While the sensors might blink on and off, I thought of it more like if a person was trying to watch someone, and suddenly there's a bright light in your eyes. For a moment you close your eyes. After you open them you might still see a blurry figure, the light is still there (which means you might get blinded again) and you're struggling to make out specifics. Now translate that into technical terms (whether or not that is technically possible is irrelevant to a concept written by someone who probably doesn't know if it's possible or not either).

Anyways, just some thoughts. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[HWalsh]

Greetings and Salutations. I'll add in my opinion on the matter.

1: The Juicer implants (neither the bio-comp nor the IRMSS unit) are never referred to as Cybernetics (not that I can find in RUE, at least). I'd suspect that this is because they do not offer direct augmentation to the Juicer. The Crazy's M.O.M. implants however are referred to as Cybernetics.

They require a Cyber-Doc to install or remove according to RUE. The Cyber-Doc constantly refers to implants as "cybernetic implants." So they still are classified as cybernetic or bionic implants.

2: RAW (Rules As Written), Juicers probably technically fall into the category. The list mentions "computers" (the Juicer has two implanted) and "sensors" (the bio-comp technically has sensors, which monitor the Juicer). I'd be very, very hesitant to think that this is RAI (Rules as Intended) though.

I'm not sure that it is RAI. There is no indicator that they didn't want CK's to be able to fight toe to toe with Juicers.

3: As an individual, I'd generally rule anything covered by flesh doesn't count. Yes, this means that, in theory, a T-800 could avoid the Cyber-Knight bonuses until you blew off some of that fleshy covering. I'm okay with that (especially since there are not many such options in Rifts, though I think the Wolfen Quatoria in Phase World might qualify and possibly others, but can't recall for sure). Meanwhile things like a cybernetic hand or EBA (outer shell) still register.

That doesn't make sense because Borgs can get covered in flesh. That is your opinion, but isn't supported by the rules.

4: I find it interesting some people take the view that the Cyber-Knight tampers with the machine in some way. I've never gotten that impression, though I suppose it's possible. I've always went closer to the concept of the Zanshin circle from N&S (at least for the Combat Awareness powers). There's no range limitation on the Cyber-Knight ability, but similar in concept. With Zanshin you sense the opponent's chi. With the Cyber-Knight ability (for Combat Awareness), the character is sensing the unnatural energies and movements of these machines (yes, judging by the wording of some other powers I'd say this would include the crossbow and modern/compound bows in general, but not old fashioned ones).

Cloud Sensors (RUE 66) references the impact on sensors.
Quoted excerpt: "The Cyber-Knight can cause sensors and weapon systems to blink on or off, provide its user with mixed readings or faltering signals, or to not see the Knight for a moment."

This clearly indicates that the Cyber-Knight tampers with the machine somehow.

Also:
The level 9 ability says it makes weapon and targeting systems "off."

Also:
Siege on Tolkeen Book 4: Cyber-Knights page 14-18 details an in-universe explanation of the Cyber-Knight abilities.

Excerpt:
"Humph," Sir Thorpe clears his throat and injects, "Well, we can influence certain machines just a little bit. We can cloud radar and sensors, knocking their data out of whack ever so slightly. This way a weapon turret or operator will fire an inch or so off. If the knight is aware of the weapon about to be fired at him, he knows which way to turn or twist and when and at what angle to dodge. Likewise, if an opponent can not rely on his sensors and computer targeting and is not used to eye-balling his targets, he is likely to be a terrible shot, giving a trained warrior a tremendous advantage. You'd be surprised what a difference even a tiny advantage can make in combat."

5: If I were to apply #4 to a Juicer (while ignoring #3), I'd see it being able to effectively sense the Bio-Comp, which is monitoring the Juicer. The Bio-Comp senses the heightened activity of combat, monitors the tensing of muscles in the right arm as it determines whether it needs to make adjustments or not, etc. And because the Bio-Comp is aware of the Juicer's motions, the Cyber-Knight knows intuitively as well. I say "intuitively" because I don't view it as a complex communication and the Cyber-Knight couldn't probably explain the full details if s/he tried, but more of a general awareness that translates to: "Punch from the right arm." If the Cyber-Knight can sense the Bio-Comp, then s/he is probably also aware of the Juicer's general location, and thereby have a really good idea of where the attack is coming from.

You pretty much described how it works in the in-universe explanation.

6: The ability to Cloud Sensors (and advanced), once again, didn't really feel (to me) as the Cyber-Knight controlling the information, but more like an aura around the Cyber-Knight that disrupts sensors directed at him/her. While the sensors might blink on and off, I thought of it more like if a person was trying to watch someone, and suddenly there's a bright light in your eyes. For a moment you close your eyes. After you open them you might still see a blurry figure, the light is still there (which means you might get blinded again) and you're struggling to make out specifics. Now translate that into technical terms (whether or not that is technically possible is irrelevant to a concept written by someone who probably doesn't know if it's possible or not either).

Nope, it is direct manipulation. The sensors actually send back false information, IE the knight is a foot to the right of where the sensors say they are. The sensors turn off. Or, in the in-universe story, the power armor's missiles mysteriously lock up and don't fire. (That may be loss of actions as the characters aren't supposed to be aware that such is going on.)

Anyways, just some thoughts. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Be well!

[Prysus]

That is your opinion, but isn't supported by the rules.

Greetings and Salutations. Hence I added: "my opinion" at the start, and things like "As an individual, I'd generally rule" and didn't claim it's strictly by the book. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Axelmania]

The eye-balling thing would seem like a big problem for robots which lack viewing ports and rely on cameras. Weren't there some in Triax like that?

Or even if they had viewing ports, they'd be much easier to blind by throwing a can of paint on the porthole.

[HWalsh]

The eye-balling thing would seem like a big problem for robots which lack viewing ports and rely on cameras. Weren't there some in Triax like that?

Or even if they had viewing ports, they'd be much easier to blind by throwing a can of paint on the porthole.

It's virtually impossible to do with anything more than a simple rifle even in real life.

[Nightmask]

No that is not my logic, that's a strawman you're trying to pin onto it but that's not the case. I've read the Juicer write-up plenty of times, not even a single letter of it makes the Juicer into a creature that's using technology for the Cyber-Knight's anti-tech abilities to react to. Then again you ignored everything else I posted once again. The Bio-Comp provides NO abilities to the Juicer, the Juicer's abilities are from the drugs. The Bio-comp may be what regulates the drugs but its the drugs that are responsible for the things the Juicer can do which is why the anti-tech ability isn't going to work on the non-tech Juicer. Which is completely in keeping with the limitations someone later posts that the Juicer clearly lays outside of.

Please show me where, in RUE, it says that tech laden (which is the requirement) means something granting combat bonuses.

EBA doesn't grant combat bonuses and counts.

Do you believe that a Juicer, who has 2 implanted computers, a technological harness that injects drugs that has circuits, chips, and mechanical parts, is not an individual who would not be considered "tech laden?"

Because that is all that is required here.

Yeah, okay, I'm quite done here. You ignored everything I posted just to try and drag everything back to a red herring and distract from the actual points I made. You're deliberately misusing the definition of tech-laden to try and convert the very NON-tech powered juicer into something that would qualify. Why I have no idea but Juicers AREN'T tech-laden, the ONLY tech involved with them is the tech that regulates the drugs that actually DO provide them with their bonuses, bonuses that simply cannot be successfully be argued to be the result of the Bio-Comp other than extremely indirectly and certainly not in a fashion that would let an anti-TECH cyber-knight to use those abilities against them.

You know the juicers abilities are derived from the very non-tech drugs not the Bio-Comp, you know that the Bio-Comp is not going to provide any useful information to the Cyber-Knight's tech-sensing abilities which were designed and trained against actual tech like power armor and NOT biological systems and you know you can't refute any of that which is why you simply don't acknowledge the points exist. Since you aren't even willing to admit the points exist there's clearly no reason for me to keep responding.

[HWalsh]

Yeah, okay, I'm quite done here. You ignored everything I posted just to try and drag everything back to a red herring and distract from the actual points I made. You're deliberately misusing the definition of tech-laden to try and convert the very NON-tech powered juicer into something that would qualify.

Wrong. YOU are deliberately misusing the definition of tech laden. Tech laden in this sense considers freaking EBA as a qualifier. You KEEP ignoring that. You ignore the bio comp is tech. You ignore the drug harness itself is tech. Those are at least as much tech as EBA and have more technical workings than EBA.

Why I have no idea but Juicers AREN'T tech-laden, the ONLY tech involved with them is the tech that regulates the drugs that actually DO provide them with their bonuses, bonuses that simply cannot be successfully be argued to be the result of the Bio-Comp other than extremely indirectly and certainly not in a fashion that would let an anti-TECH cyber-knight to use those abilities against them.

I disagree and you seem to be insanely biased.

You know the juicers abilities are derived from the very non-tech drugs not the Bio-Comp, you know that the Bio-Comp is not going to provide any useful information to the Cyber-Knight's tech-sensing abilities which were designed and trained against actual tech like power armor and NOT biological systems and you know you can't refute any of that which is why you simply don't acknowledge the points exist. Since you aren't even willing to admit the points exist there's clearly no reason for me to keep responding.

You think I haven't refuted it. I think I have refuted it and for some reason the fact that most replies even in this thread seem to agree with me and not you it is making you upset.

If the person is wearing something that contains chips, circuits, and mechanical pumps that is, in my opinion, evidence of tech. Nothing said the tech had to be a weapon or even the source of their power.

Juicers even have a big mechanical button on their chest to release repairing nanites into their freaking blood streams. To claim they don't use tech is just silly at that point.

[Killer Cyborg]

Please show me where, in RUE, it says that tech laden (which is the requirement) means something granting combat bonuses.

You're deliberately misusing the definition of tech-laden to try and convert the very NON-tech powered juicer into something that would qualify.

Uh... WHAT definition of "tech-laden"...?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The eye-balling thing would seem like a big problem for robots which lack viewing ports and rely on cameras. Weren't there some in Triax like that?

Or even if they had viewing ports, they'd be much easier to blind by throwing a can of paint on the porthole.

It's virtually impossible to do with anything more than a simple rifle even in real life.

I know a few pilots from WW2 with 15+ confirmed kills that would like a word with you. (Well, one of them would. The other three have all passed away at this point.).

I also know a deck gunner from a battleship more than a dozen confirmed kills (that'd be my grandfather). Mark 1 eyeball.

Now, as to the rest -

Does the "tech" in question actually target the CK?

No?

Then it isn't affected.

It's not like he can turn my radio off while im listening to the local rock station. The sensors in my robot dont jam up when im not targeting the CK.

The CK also doesn't have any deliberate control of what he's affecting - otherwise he could just reach out and shut off a borg's life support.

Now, in my game(s), this will never be an issue, as i dont even find the "new" Jedi Fanwank "Jedi Cyber Knight" to be worth using as toilet paper. It's a garbage mess of conflicting and nonsensical game mechanics that slow down combat egregiously and dont even make sense.

The only Cyber Knight i aknowledge outside of these esoteric rules arguments (which are pointless since the game doesn't even FUNCTION RAW) is the one in the RMB.

[Mack]

I know a few pilots from WW2 with 15+ confirmed kills that would like a word with you. (Well, one of them would. The other three have all passed away at this point.).

I also know a deck gunner from a battleship more than a dozen confirmed kills (that'd be my grandfather). Mark 1 eyeball.

Now, as to the rest -

Does the "tech" in question actually target the CK?

No?

Then it isn't affected.

It's not like he can turn my radio off while im listening to the local rock station. The sensors in my robot dont jam up when im not targeting the CK.

The CK also doesn't have any deliberate control of what he's affecting - otherwise he could just reach out and shut off a borg's life support.

^ This is productive, and contributes to the discussion.

Now, in my game(s), this will never be an issue, as i dont even find the "new" Jedi Fanwank "Jedi Cyber Knight" to be worth using as toilet paper. It's a garbage mess of conflicting and nonsensical game mechanics that slow down combat egregiously and dont even make sense.

The only Cyber Knight i aknowledge outside of these esoteric rules arguments (which are pointless since the game doesn't even FUNCTION RAW) is the one in the RMB.

^ This does not.

[HWalsh]

The eye-balling thing would seem like a big problem for robots which lack viewing ports and rely on cameras. Weren't there some in Triax like that?

Or even if they had viewing ports, they'd be much easier to blind by throwing a can of paint on the porthole.

It's virtually impossible to do with anything more than a simple rifle even in real life.

I know a few pilots from WW2 with 15+ confirmed kills that would like a word with you. (Well, one of them would. The other three have all passed away at this point.).

I also know a deck gunner from a battleship more than a dozen confirmed kills (that'd be my grandfather). Mark 1 eyeball.

Now, as to the rest -

Does the "tech" in question actually target the CK?

No?

Then it isn't affected.

It's not like he can turn my radio off while im listening to the local rock station. The sensors in my robot dont jam up when im not targeting the CK.

The CK also doesn't have any deliberate control of what he's affecting - otherwise he could just reach out and shut off a borg's life support.

Now, in my game(s), this will never be an issue, as i dont even find the "new" Jedi Fanwank "Jedi Cyber Knight" to be worth using as toilet paper. It's a garbage mess of conflicting and nonsensical game mechanics that slow down combat egregiously and dont even make sense.

The only Cyber Knight i aknowledge outside of these esoteric rules arguments (which are pointless since the game doesn't even FUNCTION RAW) is the one in the RMB.

There are only a few aspects that care what the technology is targeting.

The Level 4 abilities do for the purposes of penalizing certain things, though the bonus the Knight gets to attack does not. It specifically calls out EBA, and since that doesn't target the Knight and we know it counts for the purposes of awareness then it calls it to question right there.

The level 5 ability does. The level 6 ability does. As does the level 9 ability. The level 8 ability does not.

[Axelmania]

If a cyberknight can sense EBA I think they can sense juicer implants all over the body.

If it was a single bionic hand I might not give it to them since it is too small to ffive your full spatial info to the Knight.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

It specifically calls out EBA, and since that doesn't target the Knight

Uh.. yes, the things on EBA that are disrupted DO target the Knight (Thermo imaging, targeting sensors/reticles, HUD information that is gathered from sensors, etc).

[Killer Cyborg]

It specifically calls out EBA, and since that doesn't target the Knight

Uh.. yes, the things on EBA that are disrupted DO target the Knight (Thermo imaging, targeting sensors/reticles, HUD information that is gathered from sensors, etc).

Not all EBA has those things.
In fact, most EBA does not have those things.

[HWalsh]

It specifically calls out EBA, and since that doesn't target the Knight

Uh.. yes, the things on EBA that are disrupted DO target the Knight (Thermo imaging, targeting sensors/reticles, HUD information that is gathered from sensors, etc).

Commonly EBA has: (RUE 267)

1. Computer controlled life support, internal cooling and temperature control. Artificial air circulation systems, gas filtration, humidifier. Computer controlled independent oxygen supply and purge system that automatically activates in low oxygen or contaminated air environments. Five hour oxygen supply.

Nothing there targets the Knight.

2. Insulated, high temperature resistant, shielding for up to 200 degrees centigrade.

Nothing there targets the Knight.

3. At least minimal radiation shielding.

Nothing there targets the Knight.

4. Polarized, light sensitive, adjusting/tinting visor.

Nothing there targets the Knight.

5. Directional short-range radio.

Nothing there targets the Knight.

6. Removable visor/face plate.

Nothing there targets the Knight.

Since no basic features of EBA target the Cyber-Knight and since "Environmental Body Armor" is listed under the example qualifiers for the Cyber-Knight's Zen Combat on RUE pg. 65, we must conclude that your assumption that the tech must somehow target the Knight for Zen Combat to function at a base level (IE the last sentence in bullet point 2 and all of bullet point 3 of the level 4 Zen Combat ability that is detailed on RUE pg. 65-66 and the last sentence of bullet point 2 and all of bullet point 3 in the level 8 Zen combat ability detailed on RUE pg. 66.).

Also, I think this is definitive proof that something like a Bio-Comp, which targets the Juicer and has sensors that specifically scan the Juicer to react to the Juicer's biological functions would absolutely count as the vast majority of sensors in EBA only monitor their occupant. Not only that, but as stated, the Bio-Comp and Drug Harness of the Juicer are absolutely at least as technological/mechanical as baseline EBA.

Edit: To add...

Also, it should be noted that none of the features you mentioned appear even in high-end military EBA such as those used by the Coalition in PA 101 (RUE pg. 261) or exist even in the more advanced "Dead Boy" armor. (CWC pg. 100)

[Axelmania]

Juicers seem way more high tech than EBA. Filled with nanobots and hundreds/thousand sites.

[Blue_Lion]

Think the problem is people are not seeing the disconnect between detection/cyber knight bonuses and the disruption/opponents penalties.

While the EBA would be detected by the cyber knight and allow him to get his bonuses. It would not trigger the penalties as they talk about what triggers the penalties in the note.

The cyber knights anti tech powers are not all or nothing but in two categories detection/prediction and disruption of use. The disruption of use triggers penalties and has a limit.

Basically the targeting of the item is irreverent to the the detection but is part of how the penalties look. The book clearly says that while a V-blade is high tech and detected it does not incur penalties.

[HWalsh]

Think the problem is people are not seeing the disconnect between detection/cyber knight bonuses and the disruption/opponents penalties.

While the EBA would be detected by the cyber knight and allow him to get his bonuses. It would not trigger the penalties as they talk about what triggers the penalties in the note.

The cyber knights anti tech powers are not all or nothing but in two categories detection/prediction and disruption of use. The disruption of use triggers penalties and has a limit.

Basically the targeting of the item is irreverent to the the detection but is part of how the penalties look. The book clearly says that while a V-blade is high tech and detected it does not incur penalties.

The book only says the v-blade doesn't incur penalties specifically with regard to the level 9 power not any of the others.

[Blue_Lion]

Think the problem is people are not seeing the disconnect between detection/cyber knight bonuses and the disruption/opponents penalties.

While the EBA would be detected by the cyber knight and allow him to get his bonuses. It would not trigger the penalties as they talk about what triggers the penalties in the note.

The cyber knights anti tech powers are not all or nothing but in two categories detection/prediction and disruption of use. The disruption of use triggers penalties and has a limit.

Basically the targeting of the item is irreverent to the the detection but is part of how the penalties look. The book clearly says that while a V-blade is high tech and detected it does not incur penalties.

The book only says the v-blade doesn't incur penalties specifically with regard to the level 9 power not any of the others.

I would have to disagree with that the negate built in bonus is redundant in level 9. As all bonuses have already been negated at level 3 and 8.
In addition the word note would be unneeded if it was just talking about the penalties from number 9. They would likely do the limit like they did at level 6.

So to me it can be read as a note about all penalties and not just the penalties from level 9.

[HWalsh]

Think the problem is people are not seeing the disconnect between detection/cyber knight bonuses and the disruption/opponents penalties.

While the EBA would be detected by the cyber knight and allow him to get his bonuses. It would not trigger the penalties as they talk about what triggers the penalties in the note.

The cyber knights anti tech powers are not all or nothing but in two categories detection/prediction and disruption of use. The disruption of use triggers penalties and has a limit.

Basically the targeting of the item is irreverent to the the detection but is part of how the penalties look. The book clearly says that while a V-blade is high tech and detected it does not incur penalties.

The book only says the v-blade doesn't incur penalties specifically with regard to the level 9 power not any of the others.

I would have to disagree with that the negate built in bonus is redundant in level 9. As all bonuses have already been negated at level 3 and 8.
In addition the word note would be unneeded if it was just talking about the penalties from number 9. They would likely do the limit like they did at level 6.

So to me it can be read as a note about all penalties and not just the penalties from level 9.

That seems like an illogical leap.

The level 9 ability specifically says, "The penalty" not "penalties" don't apply to X, Y, and Z. You are seeing a meaning that isn't implied by the text.

[Blue_Lion]

Think the problem is people are not seeing the disconnect between detection/cyber knight bonuses and the disruption/opponents penalties.

While the EBA would be detected by the cyber knight and allow him to get his bonuses. It would not trigger the penalties as they talk about what triggers the penalties in the note.

The cyber knights anti tech powers are not all or nothing but in two categories detection/prediction and disruption of use. The disruption of use triggers penalties and has a limit.

Basically the targeting of the item is irreverent to the the detection but is part of how the penalties look. The book clearly says that while a V-blade is high tech and detected it does not incur penalties.

The book only says the v-blade doesn't incur penalties specifically with regard to the level 9 power not any of the others.

I would have to disagree with that the negate built in bonus is redundant in level 9. As all bonuses have already been negated at level 3 and 8.
In addition the word note would be unneeded if it was just talking about the penalties from number 9. They would likely do the limit like they did at level 6.

So to me it can be read as a note about all penalties and not just the penalties from level 9.

That seems like an illogical leap.

The level 9 ability specifically says, "The penalty" not "penalties" don't apply to X, Y, and Z. You are seeing a meaning that isn't implied by the text.

You are some what in error as it starts off after the word note with "Penalties". So it begins with a statement about multiple penalties not just a single one.

IE penalties plural applies to xyz.
Inconstant tense is used in what they say the penalty does not apply to. Could be read as no penalty applies to them, or the penalty of fighting a CK does not apply when you also include the last sentence under the note giving context about multiple penalties.
Pg 66 under the note last sentence.
"Techno-Wizrard swords and melee weapons also suffer no penalties."
So they start off and end talking about multiple penalties with a inconstant version of penalty in the middle.
As the world also is used that means something else was stated as suffering no penalties. From the text the only logical choice would be the list after they used the inconstant text.

So it is not an illogical leap as your whole reason for it being illogical was them not using the plural form when they use the plural form 2 out of 3 times.