North America in another century

[Axelmania]

Note that this claim explicitly says that the sea titans would speed up the titanization of humanity because of their effects on the human gene pool.
I am saying that unless they actually put those genes into people they don't have an effect.
If a Sea Titan saves a normal human that will not speed up the titanization of humanity, thus that saved human? Has zero effect on the titanization.

Rescuers would be given higher priority as mating candidates.

[Kelorin]

Live almost forever, have psi-powers, hard to kill and go through a mega-mating phase. Wow, Sea Titan are the Asari (Mass Effect) of Rifts!

Here's another thought: What happens when (and if) Atlantis or New Phoenix Empire manages to capture a Sea Titan alive? To the Splugorth or a Necromancer, a Sea Titan is basically a nearly limitless, self-renewing MDC limbs and organs parts factory. If they ALSO figure out that they breed true with ANY normal humans, you can bet your MDC regenerating backside that Splynncryth is going to start breeding them like rabbits with their existing slave stock.

Edit:
This would also bump the New Navy up several notches on old One-Eye's priorities list, I would think.

[Library Ogre]

Almost definitely. Even a few concerted, non-lethal strikes (sperm and egg extraction) could do wonders.

After all, if Sea Titans can mate with Humans, and Ogres can mate with humans, imagine an Ogre Sea Titan. That was given extensive tattoos before it changed.

[Kelorin]

Almost definitely. Even a few concerted, non-lethal strikes (sperm and egg extraction) could do wonders.

After all, if Sea Titans can mate with Humans, and Ogres can mate with humans, imagine an Ogre Sea Titan. That was given extensive tattoos before it changed.

Wow, it would be a literal Munchkin factory.

That reminds me, Zentraedi can mate with humans too. Can they get tatoos?

[Library Ogre]

Almost definitely. Even a few concerted, non-lethal strikes (sperm and egg extraction) could do wonders.

After all, if Sea Titans can mate with Humans, and Ogres can mate with humans, imagine an Ogre Sea Titan. That was given extensive tattoos before it changed.

Wow, it would be a literal Munchkin factory.

That reminds me, Zentraedi can mate with humans too. Can they get tatoos?

We have 5 races that we know can get tattoos... Elves, Chiang-ku dragons, humans, True Atlanteans, and Ogres. Of those, 3 are human or human off-shoots. I would say it's not unlikely.

[eliakon]

Sea Titans can't have tattoos, we know that from cannon (Splynn Dimensional Market)
Zentradi and other 'humans' are grey areas that are covered by the GMs will... and Splynn Dimensional Market again.

The main issue of course will be the GMs ruling on what is or is not human, and what defines 'human' in the first place.

[Axelmania]

SDMp107 says humans modified to be supernatural, but Underseas 113-115 seems to avoid directly calling them supernatural. They're "superhuman" and have supernatural physical attributes, sure...

The way vulnerabilities/penalties mentions about how magic weapons which do double to supernatural have the same effects, and how spells/psi/abilities which detect supernatural can sense sea titans... I understand how that could lead some to assume they are supernatural but I don't think it necessarily means that.

If anything, the weird way in which it phrases this seems to imply they aren't supernatural beings yet have many of the same vulnerabilities as they do. Otherwise, instead of listing 2 specific things which affect supernaturals that also effect the Sea Titans, why wouldn't you simply say "they are supernatural beings" with the logical conclusion that ALL things which affect supernaturals affect them?

SDM also clearly must except people who got tattoos before becoming supernatural beings, otherwise there's no way to explain Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters, who are human supernatural beings who can keep getting tattoos.

[eliakon]

SDMp107 says humans modified to be supernatural, but Underseas 113-115 seems to avoid directly calling them supernatural. They're "superhuman" and have supernatural physical attributes, sure...

The way vulnerabilities/penalties mentions about how magic weapons which do double to supernatural have the same effects, and how spells/psi/abilities which detect supernatural can sense sea titans... I understand how that could lead some to assume they are supernatural but I don't think it necessarily means that.

If anything, the weird way in which it phrases this seems to imply they aren't supernatural beings yet have many of the same vulnerabilities as they do. Otherwise, instead of listing 2 specific things which affect supernaturals that also effect the Sea Titans, why wouldn't you simply say "they are supernatural beings" with the logical conclusion that ALL things which affect supernaturals affect them?

They have supernatural stats, which is on the list.
And frankly... they are the poster child for a supernatural race. Supernatural stats, immortal, do not eat/sleep/breath, are detected by supernatural detection and are harmed by supernatural harming items... sounds pretty text book supernatural to me.

SDM also clearly must except people who got tattoos before becoming supernatural beings, otherwise there's no way to explain Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters, who are human supernatural beings who can keep getting tattoos.

They are turned supernatural by a process that is not tattoos. I am skeptical, highly, of any claim that becoming supernatural will not deactivate tattoos. Tattoos, obviously do not deactivate themselves, and thus the tattoo process will not deactivate itself. But that does not mean that other processes are some how exempt from the 'no supernaturals' rule.
If you are supernatural you can not have tattoos.
Its just how it works.

[Axelmania]

While I agree on them being poster childs, they seem more supernatural-ish than a lot of other races I've seen, we still shouldn't engage in original research here. After all, a lot of this stuff we can see from super powers in HU without it making someone supernatural.

If they were actually supernatural beings, you wouldn't have to go out of your way to say which supernatural-targeting things also work on them, you'd just call them supernatural.

These appear to be superhuman beings who while not being supernatural, are close enough that they are affected by some of the same things.

For example: something which does 50% more damage to supernatural beings would not do extra damage to a Sea Titan, because they only explicitly take double damage from things which do exactly double damage to supernatural beings.

This also means that you can attach permanence Diabolist wards to Sea Titans, since this isn't explicitly listed under the vulnerabilities which they share with actual supernatural beings.

Adult Sea Titans are no longer human (it says this under Nemo's description) but as we can see from Ogres, being no longer human doesn't mean you can't benefit from magic tattoos or reproduce with humans or that you become supernatural.

[eliakon]

While I agree on them being poster childs, they seem more supernatural-ish than a lot of other races I've seen, we still shouldn't engage in original research here. After all, a lot of this stuff we can see from super powers in HU without it making someone supernatural.

If they were actually supernatural beings, you wouldn't have to go out of your way to say which supernatural-targeting things also work on them, you'd just call them supernatural.

These appear to be superhuman beings who while not being supernatural, are close enough that they are affected by some of the same things.

For example: something which does 50% more damage to supernatural beings would not do extra damage to a Sea Titan, because they only explicitly take double damage from things which do exactly double damage to supernatural beings.

This also means that you can attach permanence Diabolist wards to Sea Titans, since this isn't explicitly listed under the vulnerabilities which they share with actual supernatural beings.

We are going to have to disagree here on this then.

Adult Sea Titans are no longer human (it says this under Nemo's description) but as we can see from Ogres, being no longer human doesn't mean you can't benefit from magic tattoos or reproduce with humans or that you become supernatural.

Only if you claim that Ogres are not human.
Which is a dubious claim.
Ogres are described in several places as being a kind of human (hence why they can breed with 'base line' humans) they are just a 'Neolithic human' or how ever they were described. They are not, to the best of my knowledge, ever listed anywhere as a separate non-human race...
...unlike Sea-titans who ARE non-humans.
And Tattoos work on Humans, Chaing-Ku, (and if ogres are not humans, then ogres). There is no "and sea titans"... which means, just that. They do not work on Sea Titans, because Sea Titans are not on the list of races that they work on.

[Axelmania]

The Palladium RPG's original version said they were the human neanderthal but the bigger 2nd ed version backpedaled on this and couched them in cousinship.

Being able to breed with a human doesn't make you a human.

The thing about not being human is... this is said about Nemo when he's an adult, so we don't know if non-human applies to pre-adult Sea Titans. They may still be considered human prior to the MDC transformation at puberty where they gain their heightened healing abilities and supernatural attributes.

Since normal restrictions (like humans modified to be supernatural beings) don't stop you from getting tattoos if you had tattoos prior to the transformation (otherwise Undead Slayers would contradict the rule) while we can determine that tatoo-less adult Sea Titans could not get them, it doesn't mean we know that tattooed pre-teen Sea Titans would lose them or be unable to get more.

[eliakon]

The Palladium RPG's original version said they were the human neanderthal but the bigger 2nd ed version backpedaled on this and couched them in cousinship.

Being able to breed with a human doesn't make you a human.

The thing about not being human is... this is said about Nemo when he's an adult, so we don't know if non-human applies to pre-adult Sea Titans. They may still be considered human prior to the MDC transformation at puberty where they gain their heightened healing abilities and supernatural attributes.

Since normal restrictions (like humans modified to be supernatural beings) don't stop you from getting tattoos if you had tattoos prior to the transformation (otherwise Undead Slayers would contradict the rule) while we can determine that tatoo-less adult Sea Titans could not get them, it doesn't mean we know that tattooed pre-teen Sea Titans would lose them or be unable to get more.

Adult titans are no longer humans.
That means they are no longer eligible to have tattoos.
Period.
The list of beings that can have tattoos is pretty clear. And Sea Titans are not on that list.
Undead Slayers don't have anything to do with this. They don't stop being human. Sea Titans do.

[dreicunan]

The Palladium RPG's original version said they were the human neanderthal but the bigger 2nd ed version backpedaled on this and couched them in cousinship.

Being able to breed with a human doesn't make you a human.

The thing about not being human is... this is said about Nemo when he's an adult, so we don't know if non-human applies to pre-adult Sea Titans. They may still be considered human prior to the MDC transformation at puberty where they gain their heightened healing abilities and supernatural attributes.

Since normal restrictions (like humans modified to be supernatural beings) don't stop you from getting tattoos if you had tattoos prior to the transformation (otherwise Undead Slayers would contradict the rule) while we can determine that tatoo-less adult Sea Titans could not get them, it doesn't mean we know that tattooed pre-teen Sea Titans would lose them or be unable to get more.

Adult titans are no longer humans.
That means they are no longer eligible to have tattoos.
Period.
The list of beings that can have tattoos is pretty clear. And Sea Titans are not on that list.
Undead Slayers don't have anything to do with this. They don't stop being human. Sea Titans do.

Fair points. So, if a young sea titan is captured by the Splurgoth before his abilities manifest and he becomes MDC, and they start giving him tattoos, what happens? Do they work until his transformation but then stop working? Do the tattoos not take in the first place?

[eliakon]

The Palladium RPG's original version said they were the human neanderthal but the bigger 2nd ed version backpedaled on this and couched them in cousinship.

Being able to breed with a human doesn't make you a human.

The thing about not being human is... this is said about Nemo when he's an adult, so we don't know if non-human applies to pre-adult Sea Titans. They may still be considered human prior to the MDC transformation at puberty where they gain their heightened healing abilities and supernatural attributes.

Since normal restrictions (like humans modified to be supernatural beings) don't stop you from getting tattoos if you had tattoos prior to the transformation (otherwise Undead Slayers would contradict the rule) while we can determine that tatoo-less adult Sea Titans could not get them, it doesn't mean we know that tattooed pre-teen Sea Titans would lose them or be unable to get more.

Adult titans are no longer humans.
That means they are no longer eligible to have tattoos.
Period.
The list of beings that can have tattoos is pretty clear. And Sea Titans are not on that list.
Undead Slayers don't have anything to do with this. They don't stop being human. Sea Titans do.

Fair points. So, if a young sea titan is captured by the Splurgoth before his abilities manifest and he becomes MDC, and they start giving him tattoos, what happens? Do they work until his transformation but then stop working? Do the tattoos not take in the first place?

My take is they wont work at all.
Just like a Nightbane can't get tattoos, even before their becoming, because they are not humans but Nightbane. I would say that a Sea Titan isn't human to begin with. Nemo was turned into something non-human... a Sea Titan. The kids are Sea Titans. They don't become Sea Titans, they are Sea Titans, they just become MDC at puberty there is a huge difference.. But make no mistake they are not, and never were human, they were always a Sea Titan.

[Riftmaker]

If the CS realizes the value of psionics and stops treating them like 2nd class citizens I could see the psionic population going up. Granted a large amount of that will just be those people getting the training they need to not hurt themselves.

Psi-stalkers likewise if the CS gets more excepting then yea the numbers will go up. The wild ones I dont see growing in numbers. They live violent lives and I dont see there numbers growing without a major power supporting them.

Psi-Ghosts - This depends on the "real" origin of them. If it was something random Gene splicers lone star etc.

I've always hated sea titans and never use them.

Amazons like neo humans and everything from southamerica I dont like and don't use. I wont restart that old debate again and leave it at that.

[Axelmania]

Being a sea titan doesn't mean being non human.

We don't even know if every adult Neo Human is non human. Maybe only first generations like Nemo are.

[Kelorin]

One point of contention. Palladium is pretty specific about which other races can cross-breed with humans and they typically need to be near-humans or human variants: ie: Ogres, True Atlanteans, Amazons, Sea Titans, Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers and Zentraedi (I've probably missed a couple). Of these, Ogres, True Atlanteans are known to be tattoo compatible. Amazons are not tattoo compatible. I'm not currently sure about Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers or Zentraedi. As far as I can tell, the jury is still out on the Sea Titans.

Anyhow, the point of this post is this: If you are racially different enough to not be able to make use of tattoos, juicers or crazy augmentations, etc., then how are you biologically compatible enough to create viable offspring?

[Library Ogre]

One point of contention. Palladium is pretty specific about which other races can cross-breed with humans and they typically need to be near-humans or human variants: ie: Ogres, True Atlanteans, Amazons, Sea Titans, Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers and Zentraedi (I've probably missed a couple). Of these, Ogres, True Atlanteans are known to be tattoo compatible. Amazons are not tattoo compatible. I'm not currently sure about Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers or Zentraedi. As far as I can tell, the jury is still out on the Sea Titans.

Anyhow, the point of this post is this: If you are racially different enough to not be able to make use of tattoos, juicers or crazy augmentations, etc., then how are you biologically compatible enough to create viable offspring?

Here's the list I complied... uhhh... 18 years ago.

And do we know for certain the Amazons can't get tattoos? I couldn't find a reference.

[eliakon]

One point of contention. Palladium is pretty specific about which other races can cross-breed with humans and they typically need to be near-humans or human variants: ie: Ogres, True Atlanteans, Amazons, Sea Titans, Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers and Zentraedi (I've probably missed a couple). Of these, Ogres, True Atlanteans are known to be tattoo compatible. Amazons are not tattoo compatible. I'm not currently sure about Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers or Zentraedi. As far as I can tell, the jury is still out on the Sea Titans.

Anyhow, the point of this post is this: If you are racially different enough to not be able to make use of tattoos, juicers or crazy augmentations, etc., then how are you biologically compatible enough to create viable offspring?

Here's the list I complied... uhhh... 18 years ago.

And do we know for certain the Amazons can't get tattoos? I couldn't find a reference.

Yes, Splynn Dimensional Market explicitly calls them out as one of the human variants that has been modified beyond the capacity to possess them any longer.

[Axelmania]

One point of contention. Palladium is pretty specific about which other races can cross-breed with humans and they typically need to be near-humans or human variants: ie: Ogres, True Atlanteans, Amazons, Sea Titans, Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers and Zentraedi (I've probably missed a couple). Of these, Ogres, True Atlanteans are known to be tattoo compatible. Amazons are not tattoo compatible. I'm not currently sure about Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers or Zentraedi. As far as I can tell, the jury is still out on the Sea Titans.

Anyhow, the point of this post is this: If you are racially different enough to not be able to make use of tattoos, juicers or crazy augmentations, etc., then how are you biologically compatible enough to create viable offspring?

No idea. Apparently happens though. Even thojgh the conversion book said wolfen cojld produce healthy offspring with Dog Boys, Juicer Uprising 17 says Los Alamo and Kingsdale have juicer conversion which work in Wooden but not Dog Boys.

Then you have supernatural beings like Undead Slayers who presumably can still breed with non supernatural humans yet cannot be converted to Juicers per page 16.

Also it would seem any psi stalker who gets juice probably can only become a Psycho Stalker and no other variants.

[Kelorin]

One point of contention. Palladium is pretty specific about which other races can cross-breed with humans and they typically need to be near-humans or human variants: ie: Ogres, True Atlanteans, Amazons, Sea Titans, Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers and Zentraedi (I've probably missed a couple). Of these, Ogres, True Atlanteans are known to be tattoo compatible. Amazons are not tattoo compatible. I'm not currently sure about Lemurians, Psi-Stalkers or Zentraedi. As far as I can tell, the jury is still out on the Sea Titans.

Anyhow, the point of this post is this: If you are racially different enough to not be able to make use of tattoos, juicers or crazy augmentations, etc., then how are you biologically compatible enough to create viable offspring?

Here's the list I complied... uhhh... 18 years ago.

And do we know for certain the Amazons can't get tattoos? I couldn't find a reference.

Thanks for that. Bookmarked.