Sanctum assault on the CS

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Axelmania
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Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Axelmania »

I remember a while ago the idea of flooding the CS with magic pigeons was brought up, to give a bunch of false positives for magical threats so that Psi-Stalkers would be all over the place and dwindle resources to track down genuine magical threats.

It occurs to me that Sanctum could be used the same way.

The spell has awesome range, and there's probably a ley line close enough to most CS cities that you could just start casting sanctum on various rooms in CS cities.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by HWalsh »

Honestly, as has already been long established, the canon CS cannot be defeated in any way, shape, or form.

They have an army that is unfathomably large, and even though HoH implies that they are running out of resources they still have millions of mothballed units, weapon, power armors, etc, just sitting around unused. Even if you could distract the Psi-Stalkers and evade the secret Vanguard, that might let you get an assassination attempt on, but it won't matter because if you try to fight the CS they will bring down their millions on top of millions on top of millions on top of millions of forces on you and you lose.

Best case scenario is that you can draw the encounter out.

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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

HWalsh wrote:Honestly, as has already been long established, the canon CS cannot be defeated in any way, shape, or form.

They have an army that is unfathomably large, and even though HoH implies that they are running out of resources they still have millions of mothballed units, weapon, power armors, etc, just sitting around unused. Even if you could distract the Psi-Stalkers and evade the secret Vanguard, that might let you get an assassination attempt on, but it won't matter because if you try to fight the CS they will bring down their millions on top of millions on top of millions on top of millions of forces on you and you lose.

Best case scenario is that you can draw the encounter out.

RIP Tolkeen... Never forget... Never again... Never fight, just run and pray.

That hasn't been established no.
Just what has been established is that some people have decided that in their view the CS is an undefeatable juggernaut/bogie man.
Of course other people have just as equally decided that the CS is only invulnerable because of plot armor.
As far as I can tell its a personal game flavor question and nothing more.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by DhAkael »

eliakon wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Honestly, as has already been long established, the canon CS cannot be defeated in any way, shape, or form.

They have an army that is unfathomably large, and even though HoH implies that they are running out of resources they still have millions of mothballed units, weapon, power armors, etc, just sitting around unused. Even if you could distract the Psi-Stalkers and evade the secret Vanguard, that might let you get an assassination attempt on, but it won't matter because if you try to fight the CS they will bring down their millions on top of millions on top of millions on top of millions of forces on you and you lose.

Best case scenario is that you can draw the encounter out.

RIP Tolkeen... Never forget... Never again... Never fight, just run and pray.

That hasn't been established no.
Just what has been established is that some people have decided that in their view the CS is an undefeatable juggernaut/bogie man.
Of course other people have just as equally decided that the CS is only invulnerable because of plot armor.
As far as I can tell its a personal game flavor question and nothing more.

PREEEEETY much; the closet case neo-nazi wanna-be's have the CS as the ubermenchen. Those with a a more cosmopolitan and realistic view (and a study in historical precedent) call plot armour on the CS survival against the world.
A moderate will take the meta-plot AND historical reality and flip a coin.

Presently, it is required that the CS keep going as a third party villan acting as xenophobic meatshileds taking the brunt of Infernal & Deamonic agression. Whether they survive and bring about the 4th Reich to Rifts Terra, get crushed under logic BUT leave the world open to hellspawn victory OR the CS high-command depose the psychotic stupidity of the Prossek regime and form alliances with the other moderate powers to defy the minion war and win (because lets face it; alone the CS will loose against the minions without magical support... no question)... is up to the GM's. Or Kevin Siembiada; cuz well, like George Lucas, he'll do what he wants with the story, regardless of us plebes. :D :P

Warning: Just because someone has an opinion about the CS it's no reason to go Godwin.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Axelmania »

Wouldn't matter if you had 2 billion SAMAS in storage, if you can't stop magical interference they will coopt your gear.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

If I recall right the CS has some sort of anti teleport ability on at least the capital.
If the dog boys can not detect magic do to interfearnce they will stop letting people in the city and bring out the Psi with the power to knock out your magic, so they can screen entrance to the city. It would allow you to hide your mages and strike with guerilla tactics (something magic is good at) but it will not get you in the city.

Note on dog boys detecting mages it is the high PPE they smell, if you can reduce your PPE below the threshold(set in Lonestar, RUE says they detect high PPE but lacks a threshold so I would use Lonestar for it) you could sneak your mage past a dog boy with no trouble. TW are not detected as magic unless in use.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:If I recall right the CS has some sort of anti teleport ability on at least the capital.

that was a non-canon Rifter.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Axelmania »

There are spells that allow people to phase through walls or teleport. You need that detection to I treceot all inevitably intruders.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:If I recall right the CS has some sort of anti teleport ability on at least the capital.

that was a non-canon Rifter.

If I recall right there are canon refences to a unspecified protection and the rifter was just some ones unoffical guess at what it was explantion.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:There are spells that allow people to phase through walls or teleport. You need that detection to I treceot all inevitably intruders.

Teleporting to an unknown location in a structure is beyond high risk.

What you are forgetting is if your spell got a few inside, you placed the whole place on high alert with your jamming that will likely get taken down by a nega psi fairly quickly. You also just placed the whole CS garrison police force and posibally citizens on high alert.

The idea of magical jamming detection to do a magical attack/infiltration on any CS super city is beyond a suicide mission in the scope of foolishness. Why put a city on alert to sneak in when you can get a pass and walk through the front gate.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:There are spells that allow people to phase through walls or teleport. You need that detection to I treceot all inevitably intruders.

Teleporting to an unknown location in a structure is beyond high risk.

Depending on how you teleport and how you recon first yes

Blue_Lion wrote:What you are forgetting is if your spell got a few inside, you placed the whole place on high alert with your jamming that will likely get taken down by a nega psi fairly quickly.

Nega-Psi's can't do anything about a spell that has already been cast.

Blue_Lion wrote:You also just placed the whole CS garrison police force and posibally citizens on high alert.

This is valuable in and of itself.
False alarms are valuable in they can be used to create 'alarm fatigue' aka boy who called wolf syndrome'

Blue_Lion wrote:The idea of magical jamming detection to do a magical attack/infiltration on any CS super city is beyond a suicide mission in the scope of foolishness. Why put a city on alert to sneak in when you can get a pass and walk through the front gate.

It is only a foolish suicide mission if the GM fiats that the CS plot armor makes it so.
This is no more suicidal than the infamous Magic Pigeon attack and so far the only solution to THAT is 'well they will use plot power to stop it'
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by HWalsh »

eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:There are spells that allow people to phase through walls or teleport. You need that detection to I treceot all inevitably intruders.

Teleporting to an unknown location in a structure is beyond high risk.

Depending on how you teleport and how you recon first yes

Blue_Lion wrote:What you are forgetting is if your spell got a few inside, you placed the whole place on high alert with your jamming that will likely get taken down by a nega psi fairly quickly.

Nega-Psi's can't do anything about a spell that has already been cast.

Blue_Lion wrote:You also just placed the whole CS garrison police force and posibally citizens on high alert.

This is valuable in and of itself.
False alarms are valuable in they can be used to create 'alarm fatigue' aka boy who called wolf syndrome'

Blue_Lion wrote:The idea of magical jamming detection to do a magical attack/infiltration on any CS super city is beyond a suicide mission in the scope of foolishness. Why put a city on alert to sneak in when you can get a pass and walk through the front gate.

It is only a foolish suicide mission if the GM fiats that the CS plot armor makes it so.
This is no more suicidal than the infamous Magic Pigeon attack and so far the only solution to THAT is 'well they will use plot power to stop it'


Can you link to that "magic pigeon" attack?
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

HWalsh wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:There are spells that allow people to phase through walls or teleport. You need that detection to I treceot all inevitably intruders.

Teleporting to an unknown location in a structure is beyond high risk.

Depending on how you teleport and how you recon first yes

Blue_Lion wrote:What you are forgetting is if your spell got a few inside, you placed the whole place on high alert with your jamming that will likely get taken down by a nega psi fairly quickly.

Nega-Psi's can't do anything about a spell that has already been cast.

Blue_Lion wrote:You also just placed the whole CS garrison police force and posibally citizens on high alert.

This is valuable in and of itself.
False alarms are valuable in they can be used to create 'alarm fatigue' aka boy who called wolf syndrome'

Blue_Lion wrote:The idea of magical jamming detection to do a magical attack/infiltration on any CS super city is beyond a suicide mission in the scope of foolishness. Why put a city on alert to sneak in when you can get a pass and walk through the front gate.

It is only a foolish suicide mission if the GM fiats that the CS plot armor makes it so.
This is no more suicidal than the infamous Magic Pigeon attack and so far the only solution to THAT is 'well they will use plot power to stop it'


Can you link to that "magic pigeon" attack?

The search feature isn't working right now, but I will try finding it.
The basic version though is simple.
You simply start casting Magic Pigeon sending Pigeons to locations to wait for people that may or may not go there (one favorite is to send pigeons to the burbs with messages for Karl Prosek)
Until the message is delivered, or the spell is negated, or several years pass the pigeon will loiter around... an active spell.
Multiply that by hundreds or thousands and you can pretty soon get a nasty 'background noise' going.

And the only way to get rid of them would be for Vanguard mages to cast Negate Magic on them as no mundane weapon will harm them.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by HWalsh »

eliakon wrote:And the only way to get rid of them would be for Vanguard mages to cast Negate Magic on them as no mundane weapon will harm them.


Which would deal a disastrous blow to the CS because the vanguard is a secret so everyone could then point at the CS and state, "You hypocrites use magic!"
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

HWalsh wrote:
eliakon wrote:And the only way to get rid of them would be for Vanguard mages to cast Negate Magic on them as no mundane weapon will harm them.


Which would deal a disastrous blow to the CS because the vanguard is a secret so everyone could then point at the CS and state, "You hypocrites use magic!"

AND would require the Vanguard to come out in the open...
...which would then allow them to be targeted and attacked.
And once they were eliminated (as they would not have CS support, and in fact would be actively hunted by the CS) then the CS is back to the status quo of "we are under an attack we can not deal with"

To be honest though this is just one of many similar attacks that logically make sense... but implementation of them violates the CS narrative protection which is why no one has done it.
Sure it would be possible to use basic spells, or elementals, or some other trick to deal with the CS along an axis that requires magic to counter...
...but narratively that is unsatisfying so its simply not done.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by dragonfett »

eliakon wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Axelmania wrote:There are spells that allow people to phase through walls or teleport. You need that detection to I treceot all inevitably intruders.

Teleporting to an unknown location in a structure is beyond high risk.

Depending on how you teleport and how you recon first yes

Blue_Lion wrote:What you are forgetting is if your spell got a few inside, you placed the whole place on high alert with your jamming that will likely get taken down by a nega psi fairly quickly.

Nega-Psi's can't do anything about a spell that has already been cast.

Blue_Lion wrote:You also just placed the whole CS garrison police force and posibally citizens on high alert.

This is valuable in and of itself.
False alarms are valuable in they can be used to create 'alarm fatigue' aka boy who called wolf syndrome'

Blue_Lion wrote:The idea of magical jamming detection to do a magical attack/infiltration on any CS super city is beyond a suicide mission in the scope of foolishness. Why put a city on alert to sneak in when you can get a pass and walk through the front gate.

It is only a foolish suicide mission if the GM fiats that the CS plot armor makes it so.
This is no more suicidal than the infamous Magic Pigeon attack and so far the only solution to THAT is 'well they will use plot power to stop it'


Can you link to that "magic pigeon" attack?

The search feature isn't working right now, but I will try finding it.
The basic version though is simple.
You simply start casting Magic Pigeon sending Pigeons to locations to wait for people that may or may not go there (one favorite is to send pigeons to the burbs with messages for Karl Prosek)
Until the message is delivered, or the spell is negated, or several years pass the pigeon will loiter around... an active spell.
Multiply that by hundreds or thousands and you can pretty soon get a nasty 'background noise' going.

And the only way to get rid of them would be for Vanguard mages to cast Negate Magic on them as no mundane weapon will harm them.


IIRC, don't you need to have at least personally met the person you are sending a message to once before? Because if so, that becomes a HUGE hindrance for this to work.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by HWalsh »

dragonfett wrote:IIRC, don't you need to have at least personally met the person you are sending a message to once before? Because if so, that becomes a HUGE hindrance for this to work.


Send a message to Chi-Town addressed to Jake, the guy you bought a biscuit from this morning in the Kingsdale Market.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Axelmania »

To teleport safely or to cast Sanctum you need to have seen the place.

That is easy. Know someone with access to Chi-Town and cast Second Sight. 5 miles / level isn't 200 miles unless.you're an old one but its still pretty impressive. A Lord Magus or Controller using their range doubler ability could probably do it from outside the range of Psi Stalkers

Does.anyone recall any statements of what the radius is from the centre if Chi-Town to either the inner circle of the megacity border walls or the outercircle f the Burbs outskirts?
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Explain how breaking into a city with over a million armed guards after you spend your wad getting in to find anything useful is not a suicide mission even without "plot armor".

What makes it suicide is the scale of what you are attempting is what makes it a suicide mission. The odds are stacked to much in the CS favor do to a the scale.

The plot armor turns it from suicide mission to not even possible.

(Do not have the book but there are two anti magic psi and if I recall one can negate active magic not just spells being cast.)

Something like this only works until the CS place one of their anti magic psi at a key spot to stop it.

Getting inside Chi town itself is not the hard part(corrupt officers sale passes and mage can drain his PPE and walk past a Dogboy so getting in is fairly easy) it is getting undetected/safely to where they secure their gear or the emperor that becomes the challenge. To do any significant damage to the CS would require significant force.

Large scale sneak attacks should be impossible in rifts do to people having the ability to read omens of the future(both PSI and magic can do that). Any event with large scale impact should have warning signs to allow some sort of defense to be in place.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Axelmania »

The isn't an instant win thing, just a major strategic disadvantage you could inflict in the CS.

Psyscape pg 58 Nega-Psychic 2. Disrupt Magic "can disrupt a magic ritual or spell casting" .."enough to prevent the spell from successfully being cast"

Pg 67 Psi- Nullifier 1. Psi-Nullification "to prevent the spell from successfully being cast" .. "must be released the moment the spell or psi-power is used"

Both are preventions, not cures. NegaPs have the advantage of being able to disrupt rituals instead of psi, which could allow them a head start getaway before the ritual is finished and fizzles.

Clairvoyance would help against big obvious assaults but not against minor sabotage you could get away with due to stressed sensors.

Also if something like entities are invisible, all you would see in a premonition is stuff getting broke not who is breaking it or a clear idea if when. Maybe you see some shifter miles away summoning entities to send at you but not with any way if stopping them.

A nullifier in 10 feet when you cast could prevent it. Odds are there arent enough to cover everywhere. Does mean you probably can't Sanctum the Prosek boudoirs but it wouldn't be a major target anyway since it would be hard to lay eyes in.

The idea is to get sanctums within a thousand feet of targets to false positive the psi stalkers.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Why would the spell of peace stress a sensor?
Really at best it is a anounce to the CS no major damage could be done without.

Think about this if it is all so easy to mess with the CS city why does it not happen every day of the week and twice on Tuesday?


Don't get me wrong I love playing mages and am not a fan of the CS but this is not a very realistic way to attack the CS as anything but a minor annoyance.

Also you seam to be mistaken on how clairvoyance works it can be something like ...something wrong. It's John. I got to get to him. It just a image of what might happen but a sudden flash of insight about what might happen. The more significant the event the more people get the insight. It gives him the ability to see the potential danger unfold and take action to stop it. Just being invisible does not mean the Psi can not see the potential danger coming.

(you have the Vanguard casting oracle to find out information on what they can do to stop an attack on the Cs learns where your snifter will be and generally idea of where and who then hunt for the signs and Ambush him. PSI corps checks to see how they next significant attack will be launched against the CS learns where and generally when you will try and CS SF is waiting for you possibly been waiting for weeks.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:Why would the spell of peace stress a sensor?
Really at best it is a anounce to the CS no major damage could be done without.

Think about this if it is all so easy to mess with the CS city why does it not happen every day of the week and twice on Tuesday?

Because of plot armor.
That is sort of the definition of plot armor after all.


Blue_Lion wrote:Don't get me wrong I love playing mages and am not a fan of the CS but this is not a very realistic way to attack the CS as anything but a minor annoyance.

I am not sure how minor sanctums are.
They basically make rooms that do two very valuable things.
first they make heavy duty back ground noise of active magic to mess with psi-bat
second a sanctum is one of the things that makes teleporting fairly safe... so each sanctum now becomes a potential back door.

Blue_Lion wrote:Also you seam to be mistaken on how clairvoyance works it can be something like ...something wrong. It's John. I got to get to him. It just a image of what might happen but a sudden flash of insight about what might happen. The more significant the event the more people get the insight. It gives him the ability to see the potential danger unfold and take action to stop it. Just being invisible does not mean the Psi can not see the potential danger coming.

They don't see what CAUSES the danger either.
Knowing "Joe is in danger" doesn't tell you "...from an invisible entity"


Blue_Lion wrote:(you have the Vanguard casting oracle to find out information on what they can do to stop an attack on the Cs learns where your snifter will be and generally idea of where and who then hunt for the signs and Ambush him. PSI corps checks to see how they next significant attack will be launched against the CS learns where and generally when you will try and CS SF is waiting for you possibly been waiting for weeks.)

The Vanguard are a nice idea...
...but are pretty heavily outnumbered by any organized opposition (not to mention the issue of 'dueling oracles' but that's a whole different thread...)
PSI Bat is going to 'check'... how?
Try to force a clairvoyant vision? With its low success rate, high cost (and this assumes that you can just 'keep trying')...
...the vague nebulous clairvoyant power?
That is not going to tell you where and when your going to try, let alone weeks in advance.
At least not the canon version.


Basically the reason this doesn't work is the same reason all the other 'sure fire' ideas don't.
You can call it plot armor, you can call it narrative causality, you can call it story arc direction, you can call it background meta concepts...
...call it what you will it all amounts to the same thing "This doesn't happen because it would be 1) boring and 2) totally change the setting dynamics in ways that the authors don't want."
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Axelmania »

The sensing abilities of hounds/stalkers does not tell them the nature of the magic just that magic is there.

You mentioned significant. I am saying it isn't helpful with a large amount if singularly insignificant things done over time. Like sending in a magic construct to do a single 1d6 damage punch to the leg of your UAR-1 Enforcer. Or having a phantom dump salt in your milk. Your basic magic vandalism that psychics could normally easily prevent by sensing magic.

Edit:,How does sanctum make teleporting safe Eliakon?
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:The sensing abilities of hounds/stalkers does not tell them the nature of the magic just that magic is there.

You mentioned significant. I am saying it isn't helpful with a large amount if singularly insignificant things done over time. Like sending in a magic construct to do a single 1d6 damage punch to the leg of your UAR-1 Enforcer. Or having a phantom dump salt in your milk. Your basic magic vandalism that psychics could normally easily prevent by sensing magic.

Edit:,How does sanctum make teleporting safe Eliakon?

It makes certain forms of dimensional teleportation safe (targeting your own sanctum raises the success rate for some forms, I can't recall which one off the top of my head)
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:Why would the spell of peace stress a sensor?
Really at best it is a anounce to the CS no major damage could be done without.

Think about this if it is all so easy to mess with the CS city why does it not happen every day of the week and twice on Tuesday?

Because of plot armor.
That is sort of the definition of plot armor after all.


Blue_Lion wrote:Don't get me wrong I love playing mages and am not a fan of the CS but this is not a very realistic way to attack the CS as anything but a minor annoyance.

I am not sure how minor sanctums are.
They basically make rooms that do two very valuable things.
first they make heavy duty back ground noise of active magic to mess with psi-bat
second a sanctum is one of the things that makes teleporting fairly safe... so each sanctum now becomes a potential back door.

Blue_Lion wrote:Also you seam to be mistaken on how clairvoyance works it can be something like ...something wrong. It's John. I got to get to him. It just a image of what might happen but a sudden flash of insight about what might happen. The more significant the event the more people get the insight. It gives him the ability to see the potential danger unfold and take action to stop it. Just being invisible does not mean the Psi can not see the potential danger coming.

They don't see what CAUSES the danger either.
Knowing "Joe is in danger" doesn't tell you "...from an invisible entity"


Blue_Lion wrote:(you have the Vanguard casting oracle to find out information on what they can do to stop an attack on the Cs learns where your snifter will be and generally idea of where and who then hunt for the signs and Ambush him. PSI corps checks to see how they next significant attack will be launched against the CS learns where and generally when you will try and CS SF is waiting for you possibly been waiting for weeks.)

The Vanguard are a nice idea...
...but are pretty heavily outnumbered by any organized opposition (not to mention the issue of 'dueling oracles' but that's a whole different thread...)
PSI Bat is going to 'check'... how?
Try to force a clairvoyant vision? With its low success rate, high cost (and this assumes that you can just 'keep trying')...
...the vague nebulous clairvoyant power?
That is not going to tell you where and when your going to try, let alone weeks in advance.
At least not the canon version.


Basically the reason this doesn't work is the same reason all the other 'sure fire' ideas don't.
You can call it plot armor, you can call it narrative causality, you can call it story arc direction, you can call it background meta concepts...
...call it what you will it all amounts to the same thing "This doesn't happen because it would be 1) boring and 2) totally change the setting dynamics in ways that the authors don't want."

I tend to avoid claims of a plot armor. Such methods would miss small scale and minor threats but any large scale attack will have signs well before it happens. If you are setting up something with significant impact on the a nation it should be detected in advance.

That is why I say large scale sneak attacks should be impossible in rifts.

The reason such sure fire ideas do not work does not require plot armor, often they only work if the conditions are right and in this case they are not. Allot of peoples sure fire ideas require that nothing be done withing the game to stop them, saying they can do something in game to stop them is not "plot armor", but reasonable counter.

Thinking that a paranoid nations psi-bat is not constantly searching for any clues the next threat so that you can sneak attack them is not very realistic. To think any magical force that is trying to protect something would not be using magic to scy to find potential threats to what they protect is not reasonable. (Seams more that you are trying to create plot armor that it will work, than plot armor saying it will not work.)
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Axelmania »

The problem.with sanctum isn't so much that it masks the scent of major threats (which clairvoyants will catch anyway) but rather that it can mask a series of mi or threats.which will be too vague or small to trigger adequate clairvoyant responses but will wittle down the CS.

Luckily since magic and suornatural smelling are different skills, a psi stalker should be able to tell the difference from a sanctum and a demon.

The problem.comes from how now mages.or. mundanes with talismans/scrolls now basically have free reign. Invisible guys can waltz right in unless.they happen in front of a thermo camera.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:
<mega snip>

Basically the reason this doesn't work is the same reason all the other 'sure fire' ideas don't.
You can call it plot armor, you can call it narrative causality, you can call it story arc direction, you can call it background meta concepts...
...call it what you will it all amounts to the same thing "This doesn't happen because it would be 1) boring and 2) totally change the setting dynamics in ways that the authors don't want."

I tend to avoid claims of a plot armor. Such methods would miss small scale and minor threats but any large scale attack will have signs well before it happens. If you are setting up something with significant impact on the a nation it should be detected in advance.

That is why I say large scale sneak attacks should be impossible in rifts.

Which would be fine...
...if it were not for the fact that we explicitly have large scale sneak attacks being used on a regular basis in Rifts.
Which pretty much means that they do work... and that to fiat them away thus requires plot armor.


Blue_Lion wrote:The reason such sure fire ideas do not work does not require plot armor, often they only work if the conditions are right and in this case they are not. Allot of peoples sure fire ideas require that nothing be done withing the game to stop them, saying they can do something in game to stop them is not "plot armor", but reasonable counter.

Thinking that a paranoid nations psi-bat is not constantly searching for any clues the next threat so that you can sneak attack them is not very realistic. To think any magical force that is trying to protect something would not be using magic to scy to find potential threats to what they protect is not reasonable. (Seams more that you are trying to create plot armor that it will work, than plot armor saying it will not work.)

The claim that psi-bat will some how 'find the clues' to prevent a magic spell from being cast on a city from dozens of miles away is plot armor.
The claim that casting spells in the books requires that 'the conditions be right' is the definition of plot armor.

That's my point.
When the basic description of basic spells or abilities says that a basic use of the spell or ability can do X. But X never happens, ever. That is plot armor (or narrative necessity, or what ever you want to call it).
When no one, ever uses any of the dozens of spells that the CS has no counter for... that is plot armor. Just like how the CS doesn't use certain technologies that it could use... but that there are few if any counters for (or which the counters for would require changing the nature of the setting)

I am not saying it is good plot armor or bad plot armor (yes there is a difference) but I am saying that it exists.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:
<mega snip>

Basically the reason this doesn't work is the same reason all the other 'sure fire' ideas don't.
You can call it plot armor, you can call it narrative causality, you can call it story arc direction, you can call it background meta concepts...
...call it what you will it all amounts to the same thing "This doesn't happen because it would be 1) boring and 2) totally change the setting dynamics in ways that the authors don't want."

I tend to avoid claims of a plot armor. Such methods would miss small scale and minor threats but any large scale attack will have signs well before it happens. If you are setting up something with significant impact on the a nation it should be detected in advance.

That is why I say large scale sneak attacks should be impossible in rifts.

Which would be fine...
...if it were not for the fact that we explicitly have large scale sneak attacks being used on a regular basis in Rifts.
Which pretty much means that they do work... and that to fiat them away thus requires plot armor.


Blue_Lion wrote:The reason such sure fire ideas do not work does not require plot armor, often they only work if the conditions are right and in this case they are not. Allot of peoples sure fire ideas require that nothing be done withing the game to stop them, saying they can do something in game to stop them is not "plot armor", but reasonable counter.

Thinking that a paranoid nations psi-bat is not constantly searching for any clues the next threat so that you can sneak attack them is not very realistic. To think any magical force that is trying to protect something would not be using magic to scy to find potential threats to what they protect is not reasonable. (Seams more that you are trying to create plot armor that it will work, than plot armor saying it will not work.)

The claim that psi-bat will some how 'find the clues' to prevent a magic spell from being cast on a city from dozens of miles away is plot armor.
The claim that casting spells in the books requires that 'the conditions be right' is the definition of plot armor.

That's my point.
When the basic description of basic spells or abilities says that a basic use of the spell or ability can do X. But X never happens, ever. That is plot armor (or narrative necessity, or what ever you want to call it).
When no one, ever uses any of the dozens of spells that the CS has no counter for... that is plot armor. Just like how the CS doesn't use certain technologies that it could use... but that there are few if any counters for (or which the counters for would require changing the nature of the setting)

I am not saying it is good plot armor or bad plot armor (yes there is a difference) but I am saying that it exists.

Really you think a power that can show things thousands of miles away(by the book) can not provide information to stop a threat dozens of miles away? Seams like you just calling plot armor because you do not like the fact that something in the book is stopping a theory you support.

I did not say casting a spell as it is in the book requires the conditions to be just right I said catching a nation with its pants down for any large scale or major threat requires the conditions to be just right. That they are not using available means to detect such threats before they happen. So it is reasonable that PSI bat would be looking for major threats, there for if the attack possessed any significant threat to the CS it would be detected. This being presented as a sure fire way to undermine and attack the CS that would make it a major threat something they would have cause to detect.

I have already stated getting in to Chi town is not hard to do for a mage (just have to drain PPE and not be in the CS data bank and buy a gate pass on the black market or from a corrupt officer), you can do small scale annoyance stuff to the CS as a whole but any large scale threat is unlikely do to ability to predict threats. When you can have dozens if not 100s of people looking for such threats a day, plus random chance it happens on its own. That is not plot armor but using an ability in the book as it would reasonable be used by places like the CS.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by HWalsh »

Blue_Lion wrote:*snip*


While I won't say the current argument is plot armor... The CS has plot armor. The CS should've fallen several times over. An enemy like the FoM should have been able to do so much damage to the CS they would have collapsed.

They should've fallen during or shortly after Tolkeen.

All of their enemies conveniently didn't take advantage of the situation. Their food supplies weren't being hit. Their supply lines weren't disrupted. They had a massive force walk through Xitcitix territory, massive MDC beings that are hyper territorial, more or less unscathed. Free Quebec did nothing until the Sorcerer's Revenge despite the fact that they should have, by conventional wisdom gone full bore at the CS early on.

The CS has plot armor because they are too big to fail. Military wisdom states that the CS should've been crushed at Tolkeen. Yet, somehow, they weren't. Instead a series of convenient events won the day.

They lost 20% of their fighting force in the Sorcerer's Revenge. In real life that would cause any military in the world to stop. Even worse the Megacities are land locations. The forces of Tolkeen should have pushed the CS out then directly assaulted one during the chaos.

Chi-Town should have been ill prepared for a siege and would have been scrambling. Combined with the food shortage and scared citizenry the CS should have struck a truce. The Tokleen's should have refused the truce *then* the other places should have jumped in saying they went too far.

Instead they were like, "OMG you guys! You're so evil for killing legitimate military targets who've been slaughtering your civilians for years!"

Plot armor though dictates that the CS can never lose, never be significantly injured, and must always possess overwhelming might.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:
<mega snip>

Basically the reason this doesn't work is the same reason all the other 'sure fire' ideas don't.
You can call it plot armor, you can call it narrative causality, you can call it story arc direction, you can call it background meta concepts...
...call it what you will it all amounts to the same thing "This doesn't happen because it would be 1) boring and 2) totally change the setting dynamics in ways that the authors don't want."

I tend to avoid claims of a plot armor. Such methods would miss small scale and minor threats but any large scale attack will have signs well before it happens. If you are setting up something with significant impact on the a nation it should be detected in advance.

That is why I say large scale sneak attacks should be impossible in rifts.

Which would be fine...
...if it were not for the fact that we explicitly have large scale sneak attacks being used on a regular basis in Rifts.
Which pretty much means that they do work... and that to fiat them away thus requires plot armor.


Blue_Lion wrote:The reason such sure fire ideas do not work does not require plot armor, often they only work if the conditions are right and in this case they are not. Allot of peoples sure fire ideas require that nothing be done withing the game to stop them, saying they can do something in game to stop them is not "plot armor", but reasonable counter.

Thinking that a paranoid nations psi-bat is not constantly searching for any clues the next threat so that you can sneak attack them is not very realistic. To think any magical force that is trying to protect something would not be using magic to scy to find potential threats to what they protect is not reasonable. (Seams more that you are trying to create plot armor that it will work, than plot armor saying it will not work.)

The claim that psi-bat will some how 'find the clues' to prevent a magic spell from being cast on a city from dozens of miles away is plot armor.
The claim that casting spells in the books requires that 'the conditions be right' is the definition of plot armor.

That's my point.
When the basic description of basic spells or abilities says that a basic use of the spell or ability can do X. But X never happens, ever. That is plot armor (or narrative necessity, or what ever you want to call it).
When no one, ever uses any of the dozens of spells that the CS has no counter for... that is plot armor. Just like how the CS doesn't use certain technologies that it could use... but that there are few if any counters for (or which the counters for would require changing the nature of the setting)

I am not saying it is good plot armor or bad plot armor (yes there is a difference) but I am saying that it exists.

Really you think a power that can show things thousands of miles away(by the book) can not provide information to stop a threat dozens of miles away? Seams like you just calling plot armor because you do not like the fact that something in the book is stopping a theory you support.

Yes I am explicitly saying that a power that says
RUE page 172 wrote: "The message can be a sudden feeling that somebody is in need("...something's wrong. It's...It's...Janet! I've got to see her!") or, more often a sudden flash of insight, a sudden image that races through the mind. The image is like a brief snippet of film from a movie or a dream. Often all the details are not clear <snip> "the glimpse of the future could be twenty minutes, eight hours, 24 hours or a week. The psychic has no way of knowing. <snip> "The image may last a few minutes or be a sudden flash lasting but a few seconds. The flash could be a peculiar nose, a face or a specific image, like a particular door or object."

Is not something that you can use reliably to pin down the location of a mage in a 200+ mile radius circle to the exact location and time so that you can preemptively respond to it. And that is if the mage is using the higher level Sanctum spell. Magic Pigeon has no range limits so they just have to be, as far as I can tell, in the same dimension.

I am explicitly saying that a power that can be attempted actively a maximum of twice per day per psychic, is not even possessed by all of the Psi-bat, and burns 4 ISP per use (regardless of what you get, sorry you don't get to 'call block' visions that don't deal with specific threats your looking for) is not going to be sufficient to make some amazing super perfect defense that can prevent wizards from casting harmful spells, that once cast can not be undone by the CS and will have effects that linger for months or years.


Blue_Lion wrote:I did not say casting a spell as it is in the book requires the conditions to be just right I said catching a nation with its pants down for any large scale or major threat requires the conditions to be just right.

1) the books disagree with you as every major nation on Rifts Earth has been caught with its pants down. The CS several times., so your arguing against canon.
2) this is not some amazing super secret D-day that you do once and bam the CS falls. Its a death of a 1,000 cuts. There is no 'pants down' here its simply that there are no possible pants.

Blue_Lion wrote:That they are not using available means to detect such threats before they happen.

That's the point. There are no 'available means'
There is no canon power that can do this. And using a house rule to change how Clairvoyance works to make it do this is not an 'available means' its a house ruled plot armor.

Blue_Lion wrote: So it is reasonable that PSI bat would be looking for major threats,

They can try sure. And I am sure that this is one reason that things like assassination attempts against major VIPs fail...

Blue_Lion wrote:there for if the attack possessed any significant threat to the CS it would be detected.

Again your arguing against canon (Juicer Uprisings, the entire Tolkeen War, the Quebec Succession... the list goes on.)

Blue_Lion wrote:This being presented as a sure fire way to undermine and attack the CS that would make it a major threat something they would have cause to detect.

Only if they get plot armor.
Because the books have been pretty explicitly clear that precognition does NOT tip of the CS every time something could be a major threat. That sort of means that claims that they will get tipped of are going against what is written...
...i.e. headcanon.


Blue_Lion wrote:I have already stated getting in to Chi town is not hard to do for a mage (just have to drain PPE and not be in the CS data bank and buy a gate pass on the black market or from a corrupt officer), you can do small scale annoyance stuff to the CS as a whole but any large scale threat is unlikely do to ability to predict threats. When you can have dozens if not 100s of people looking for such threats a day, plus random chance it happens on its own. That is not plot armor but using an ability in the book as it would reasonable be used by places like the CS.

How are they going to 'look for such a threat'
No really. How?
You can't just think "threats to the CS" you have to think about "A particular person, event or place" then spend your 4 ISP and roll 58% +2% per level And you can only do that twice a day. And you have to use these chances for all of your precog. The exact same pool of chances that can look for a wizard casting Magic Pigeon is the same pool of chances that can be used to see if there is an assassination plot against a VIP, or if the bomb threat that called in yesterday is valid, or how the raid on the Chop Shop in Fire Town is going to go down, or...

And to be totally clear on how unlikely this is

Spoiler:
Level 1 58%
Level 2 60%
Level 3 62%
Level 4 64%
Level 5 65%
Level 6 67%
Level 7 69%
Level 8 71%
Level 9 72%
Level 10 75%
You have to be level six to get a two in three chance of succeeding and level ten to get to 3 in four!
And that is on each of your two guesses per day. Each guess can be for one particular person, or event, or place[]/i that you want to check out and see if, in some point in the future it will be threatened!


Changing the way the power works is plot armor.
Because its giving them something that is [i]not
stated out in the book to provide them with a protection against something that is stated out in the books. That is sort of the definition of 'plot armor'
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by HWalsh »

eliakon wrote:*snip*


Also, let's be honest, they are a huge widely hated kingdom. Widely hated. Probably the most hated and feared group in North Americà.

The CS is largely the enemy of the Cyber-Knight Order.
The CS was the primary enemy of Tolkeen.
The CS is the primary enemy of the FoM.
The CS was the primary enemy of Free Quebec.
The CS is the primary enemy of Lazlo.
The CS is hated by pretty much every Deebee in North America.

There would be serious threats virtually every single day.

The Psi-Bat would go INSANE trying to track all of that.

Heck, in one Rifter (59 maybe?) they detail that Lazlo has a rift canon that opens in inside of a freaking star and causes a beam of star to hit targets in a massive wide line that would, if it could reach Chi-Town destroy the entire city in about 5 minutes. (Everything in Chi-Town eating around 10,000 MD.)

That is Lazlo mind you. The guys who DON'T really want to wipe Chi-Town off the map. The FoM are probably working on even worse stuff all the time.

They probably come up with a plan to explode the place at least once a month.

The poor Psi-Bats are probably getting migraines given how often a threat against Chi-Town would appear.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:
<mega snip>

Basically the reason this doesn't work is the same reason all the other 'sure fire' ideas don't.
You can call it plot armor, you can call it narrative causality, you can call it story arc direction, you can call it background meta concepts...
...call it what you will it all amounts to the same thing "This doesn't happen because it would be 1) boring and 2) totally change the setting dynamics in ways that the authors don't want."

I tend to avoid claims of a plot armor. Such methods would miss small scale and minor threats but any large scale attack will have signs well before it happens. If you are setting up something with significant impact on the a nation it should be detected in advance.

That is why I say large scale sneak attacks should be impossible in rifts.

Which would be fine...
...if it were not for the fact that we explicitly have large scale sneak attacks being used on a regular basis in Rifts.
Which pretty much means that they do work... and that to fiat them away thus requires plot armor.


Blue_Lion wrote:The reason such sure fire ideas do not work does not require plot armor, often they only work if the conditions are right and in this case they are not. Allot of peoples sure fire ideas require that nothing be done withing the game to stop them, saying they can do something in game to stop them is not "plot armor", but reasonable counter.

Thinking that a paranoid nations psi-bat is not constantly searching for any clues the next threat so that you can sneak attack them is not very realistic. To think any magical force that is trying to protect something would not be using magic to scy to find potential threats to what they protect is not reasonable. (Seams more that you are trying to create plot armor that it will work, than plot armor saying it will not work.)

The claim that psi-bat will some how 'find the clues' to prevent a magic spell from being cast on a city from dozens of miles away is plot armor.
The claim that casting spells in the books requires that 'the conditions be right' is the definition of plot armor.

That's my point.
When the basic description of basic spells or abilities says that a basic use of the spell or ability can do X. But X never happens, ever. That is plot armor (or narrative necessity, or what ever you want to call it).
When no one, ever uses any of the dozens of spells that the CS has no counter for... that is plot armor. Just like how the CS doesn't use certain technologies that it could use... but that there are few if any counters for (or which the counters for would require changing the nature of the setting)

I am not saying it is good plot armor or bad plot armor (yes there is a difference) but I am saying that it exists.

Really regular basis of sneak attacks I was under the impression, that most major attacks are known about before they happen, mechniods, four horse men, heck even the minion ware (larson was there ahead of time and NG stock piled) was known about before it happened. The only large sneak attack I can recall on the books is the final siege. But please provide quotes of your successful large scale sneak attacks happening on a regular basis.(and perhaps even explain how it happening was not what you call plot armor.)

So no one uses the the dozens of spells that you think the CS has no defense for is plot armor. It could not possibly allowing such a spell back door to go off would constitute a major threat to the CS and the PSI bat and SF neutralize the mage preventing the spell to go off. After all the best defense is offense in this case so the CS does have a defense kill the mage before he cast the spell. After the word gets out that mages that where willing to try it got geeked and mages with a spell start becoming less common the threat of users goes down.
In this case you are talking about a level 13 spell, that makes it some what rare spell for people to know, now then not every one that knows it is gunning for the CS. So if CS kill teams where to kill a few mages that planed to use it as part of back door to CS city attacks that puts a big dent in the number people with the spell willing to try it. And guess what even if the mage gets the spell off once he is killed the spell ends.

Now then lets look at what it would take for this spell to work, for infiltration. You would need to cast a high level spell that covers 30'X30 area to the point where creates sufficient jamming to allow you slip past dog boys undetected, while also avoiding all other sensors.(its not like the CS can just flood the casting area and surrounding area with large number of skellebots to stop you if you just cast it once or twice oh wait they can) If it is just once casting they would lock down the area so you are going to need to cast it dozens of times thus making it a dedicated elaborate attack. The spell is for protecting rooms as big as 30X30 now you could argue that the room is referring to the area protected not a physical room but it could also require knowing of a physical room of the required size.

What works against it.
The attempt to blind the CS magic detection would be seen by PSI corps and mutant animals with clairvoyance as a major threat to something they care about the security of the CS so they would a base 58% +2% per level so the average psi has 64% chance per psi and cost 4 isp wait that is better success rate than piloting a jet air craft.(so much for low success rate and high cost) In this case the are meditating on a threat that would undermine the security of the CS so it would be an event so no +5% for loved one.


Plot armor is when nothing in game can justify something from not happening. In this case we have a in game solution so plot armor is not needed. The one forging plot armor is not me but the person saying that the in game defense is not being used because it is not part of the story. (in other words you)
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

HWalsh wrote:
eliakon wrote:*snip*


Also, let's be honest, they are a huge widely hated kingdom. Widely hated. Probably the most hated and feared group in North Americà.

The CS is largely the enemy of the Cyber-Knight Order.
The CS was the primary enemy of Tolkeen.
The CS is the primary enemy of the FoM.
The CS was the primary enemy of Free Quebec.
The CS is the primary enemy of Lazlo.
The CS is hated by pretty much every Deebee in North America.

There would be serious threats virtually every single day.

The Psi-Bat would go INSANE trying to track all of that.

Heck, in one Rifter (59 maybe?) they detail that Lazlo has a rift canon that opens in inside of a freaking star and causes a beam of star to hit targets in a massive wide line that would, if it could reach Chi-Town destroy the entire city in about 5 minutes. (Everything in Chi-Town eating around 10,000 MD.)

That is Lazlo mind you. The guys who DON'T really want to wipe Chi-Town off the map. The FoM are probably working on even worse stuff all the time.

They probably come up with a plan to explode the place at least once a month.

The poor Psi-Bats are probably getting migraines given how often a threat against Chi-Town would appear.

I am not sure hated is the right word to use. Fear might be more appropriate.

Most of what you listed do not actively target the CS, tolkeen had no intention of invading the CS even when at war so they did not represent a threat the PSI battalion would detect. Lazlo is not milistric, the cyber knights are to disorganized and do not present a significant threat to the CS as not all members of the order want to bring down the CS. Free Quebec, just wants to be free and was once a member of the CS broke off(something many knew they would do) and is now a ally of the CS. Most D-bees lack the means to present a significant threat to the CS. FoM most members that do have hated of the CS tend to be lacking in means for large scale attack.




Most those with a grudge against the CS lack the means to be a significant threat. So despire you attempt to make it look like they CS is under constant threat of significant attack your listed is bloated with non-threats. The psi bat can not detect every minor threat or nuisance to the CS but then again they would not try they would be looking for things that would undermine the security of the CS as a whole. Something that the sanctum assault would represent. It is about scale minor threats to the CS that do not endanger the love ones of the psi-battalion would likely and do go undetected however anything that would undermine the CS as a whole would be seen coming a mile away.(So a raid on a supply convoy or patrol even slip in a spy you could do without the psi bat detecting but an attack on a fortified city or create a way to surge troops in would be almost certainly be detected.)
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Axelmania »

A non threat to the CS but a gradual problem: mass production of Throwing Stones talismans, given out en masse to Burbites. Psi Stalkers unable to track them down due to the Sanctuaries always giving a false positive.

"Dead boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" graffiti spreads. Unlike concealed laser wands, talismans can be disguised as incredibly small items easy to conceal. The disappearing stones carry no fingerprints. The magical throwing range exceeds that of a laser wand, the cheapest ranges MD weapon aside from a VibroDeadball.

The vandals with their low damage.stand no chance in a.stand up fight. But they are there to harry, not kill. Damage a wall. Take out an MDC camera. Bust a tire, a robotic sensor. Flee immediately.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by wyrmraker »

I looked up Sanctum in the Book of Magic, and spotted a few difficulties with using it against Chi-Town.

First, it's a Level 13 spell. That makes it's availability extremely limited, since magical knowledge in pretty much all of Palladium is hoarded, protected, and mostly kept secret with a nasty savagery and price gouging. That secrecy *might* change after the fall of Tolkeen, but not according to the canon material.

Second, it costs 390 ppe to cast. Again, not a lot of mages have that kind of power to toss around. This kind of limitation can be overcome, but it would take time and planning.

Third, according to Book of Magic, p.149, the spell does the following:
The mage can protect a room as big as 30x30 feet (9.1 m x 9.1 m) from mystic influence by using the Sanctum invocation. The room is
instantly turned into a safe haven, or sanctum, free of mystic disturbance. While inside the room, the mage can not be found by the Calling
or Locate spell, can not be seen by Second Sight or a Crystal Ball, and can not be affected by bonding magic (but only while in the room).

That makes it kind of limited in it's utility apart from possibly a staging point or series of long-term distractions.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by HWalsh »

wyrmraker wrote:That makes it kind of limited in it's utility apart from possibly a staging point or series of long-term distractions.


I think the point is to be a distraction.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by wyrmraker »

It's use as a distraction would be good, but the spell would (by canon rules) be too rare and costly for such application, especially when there are other, less costly methods available.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:And the only way to get rid of them would be for Vanguard mages to cast Negate Magic on them as no mundane weapon will harm them.


More accurately, there is currently no other known way that has been found in recent canon.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:And the only way to get rid of them would be for Vanguard mages to cast Negate Magic on them as no mundane weapon will harm them.


More accurately, there is currently no other known way that has been found in recent canon.

Correct it would take a house rule to do it right now,
Or, wait for it... plot armor.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

Spoiler:
eliakon wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
eliakon wrote:
<mega snip>

Basically the reason this doesn't work is the same reason all the other 'sure fire' ideas don't.
You can call it plot armor, you can call it narrative causality, you can call it story arc direction, you can call it background meta concepts...
...call it what you will it all amounts to the same thing "This doesn't happen because it would be 1) boring and 2) totally change the setting dynamics in ways that the authors don't want."

I tend to avoid claims of a plot armor. Such methods would miss small scale and minor threats but any large scale attack will have signs well before it happens. If you are setting up something with significant impact on the a nation it should be detected in advance.

That is why I say large scale sneak attacks should be impossible in rifts.

Which would be fine...
...if it were not for the fact that we explicitly have large scale sneak attacks being used on a regular basis in Rifts.
Which pretty much means that they do work... and that to fiat them away thus requires plot armor.


Blue_Lion wrote:The reason such sure fire ideas do not work does not require plot armor, often they only work if the conditions are right and in this case they are not. Allot of peoples sure fire ideas require that nothing be done withing the game to stop them, saying they can do something in game to stop them is not "plot armor", but reasonable counter.

Thinking that a paranoid nations psi-bat is not constantly searching for any clues the next threat so that you can sneak attack them is not very realistic. To think any magical force that is trying to protect something would not be using magic to scy to find potential threats to what they protect is not reasonable. (Seams more that you are trying to create plot armor that it will work, than plot armor saying it will not work.)

The claim that psi-bat will some how 'find the clues' to prevent a magic spell from being cast on a city from dozens of miles away is plot armor.
The claim that casting spells in the books requires that 'the conditions be right' is the definition of plot armor.

That's my point.
When the basic description of basic spells or abilities says that a basic use of the spell or ability can do X. But X never happens, ever. That is plot armor (or narrative necessity, or what ever you want to call it).
When no one, ever uses any of the dozens of spells that the CS has no counter for... that is plot armor. Just like how the CS doesn't use certain technologies that it could use... but that there are few if any counters for (or which the counters for would require changing the nature of the setting)

I am not saying it is good plot armor or bad plot armor (yes there is a difference) but I am saying that it exists.

Blue_Lion wrote:Really regular basis of sneak attacks I was under the impression, that most major attacks are known about before they happen, mechniods, four horse men, heck even the minion ware (larson was there ahead of time and NG stock piled) was known about before it happened. The only large sneak attack I can recall on the books is the final siege. But please provide quotes of your successful large scale sneak attacks happening on a regular basis.(and perhaps even explain how it happening was not what you call plot armor.)

The CS Civil War (I would say that Quebec seceding from the country and destroying the navy in the process is a MAJOR event... where was the precogs? If they can't see THAT then I am expected to believe that they will predict individual spell casters with sufficient precision to prevent them from casting a spell!)
The Kidnapping of the Emperors Wife?
Every major battle in the Siege of Tolkeen? Some highlights (note that for every one of these Psi-Bat was on the job!)
-Chalks Folly
-the Sorcerers Revenge
-the disasters that lead to the skelbot graveyards
-the surprise use of the Ley Line spells to stop the nuclear strikes
-The final attack
-The march through the hivelands (total surprise to BOTH sides)
-The Quebec turning on their 'allies'

-The Assassination of the President of the NGR?
-The Juicer Uprising?
-Every single specific event in the Minion war (up to the point that no one knows about the Hell Pits...) While several people were slightly prepared (again via the EoPD) no one was able to, for example... be prepositioned to stop any of the armies from crossing, prevent a hell pit from being started, know about the hell pits, know what either side is doing (which rules out knowing the details of spell casting :lol: I mean if you can't precog 'they are performing rituals to end the world' how can you identify 'he is casting a magic pigeon spell that will be used to jam the psi-stalkers at Mulberry and Main')
-Even the Africa thing was part of a (rather unsual) series of seven visions that came across if you recall (the edict of planetary distress). And even THEN with basically plot level precog... they still had to search for the baddies.
-The NGR Sea Invasion that blindsided the Gargoyles and Broadkil?
-The Sunaj some how manage to attack and wipe out entire settlements of Atlantians with out being Precoged
Lets go to Phase World for a second now?
-The Attack on Center? Wow some how they manage to catch CENTER by surprise.
-Oh, and the Intruders? You know the guys who show up and wipe out whole planets... yep surprise attacks again
-The Dominators supposedly show up unannounced. I would think that "Your empire is doomed" might trigger a vision... but nope.
-The Demon Planets? Yep once again, total surprise.
Heck they talk a lot about surprise attacks for the navies too...
Over and over and over again surprise is still seen as a valid tactic. This is of course leaving out that double agents and secret sub groups are ALSO valid..
Ohh and for the icing...
Psi Bat still can't find the Vanguard who are operating in the Burbs, and the books explicitly say that the CS is hostile to them.
But I am expected to think they will find all the other mages? :-?



Blue_Lion wrote:So no one uses the the dozens of spells that you think the CS has no defense for is plot armor. It could not possibly allowing such a spell back door to go off would constitute a major threat to the CS and the PSI bat and SF neutralize the mage preventing the spell to go off. After all the best defense is offense in this case so the CS does have a defense kill the mage before he cast the spell. After the word gets out that mages that where willing to try it got geeked and mages with a spell start becoming less common the threat of users goes down.

And again you just described plot armor
There is literally NO WAY to have such a defense.
NONE.
I am sorry. But claiming that Psi bat and its few thousand psychics is going to precog the exact identity, location and time of every mage who might cast a Magic Pigeon against the CS is absurd.
The power doesn't work that way, they don't have enough people to detect it, and even if they DID it would only work against a non-organized action.
If an actual hostile force (like say... the Federation of Magic) were bored enough to use a tiny portion of their military mages to harass the CS with Magic Pigeons the Burbs are going to be covered in them.


Blue_Lion wrote:In this case you are talking about a level 13 spell,

Yes, this particular case was a lv 13 spell.
But the same plot armor here is the one that protects it from level 6 spells, and level 4 spells, and class starting spells, and all the various other "use spell X to harass the CS in a way that they can not fight back against at all." plots

Blue_Lion wrote:that makes it some what rare spell for people to know, now then not every one that knows it is gunning for the CS. So if CS kill teams where to kill a few mages that planed to use it as part of back door to CS city attacks that puts a big dent in the number people with the spell willing to try it. And guess what even if the mage gets the spell off once he is killed the spell ends.

Any plan that depends on these imaginary Kill Teams is doomed. Because as I have said before... these kill teams require a house rule/plot power to exist. And that sort of makes them a Unicorn Plan ("how do we solve the problem sir" "well, first we catch a unicorn...")


Blue_Lion wrote:Now then lets look at what it would take for this spell to work, for infiltration. You would need to cast a high level spell that covers 30'X30 area to the point where creates sufficient jamming to allow you slip past dog boys undetected, while also avoiding all other sensors.(its not like the CS can just flood the casting area and surrounding area with large number of skellebots to stop you if you just cast it once or twice oh wait they can) If it is just once casting they would lock down the area so you are going to need to cast it dozens of times thus making it a dedicated elaborate attack. The spell is for protecting rooms as big as 30X30 now you could argue that the room is referring to the area protected not a physical room but it could also require knowing of a physical room of the required size.

The point is not to do this in one fell swoop.
Its a 'death of a 1,000 cuts'
Once a Sanctum is up, or the Pigeon, or the eternal flame, etc., its up and the 'jamming' is there to stay.
The point is that you make it so that you can't flood the area by scattering the 'footprint'. Each time you target someplace new, so that every time someone does this yet another place now radiates active magic. Once, or twice, or fifty times that's not a problem...
...but multiply that by just a dozen casters casting a couple times a month, for a few years... and suddenly your looking at thousands of hotspots. And if an organization decides to actually do this as part of a strategy (like oh... the FoM or Tolkeen or the Tolkeen Avengers or one of the other forces out to get the CS) your looking and some serious numbers.


Blue_Lion wrote:What works against it.
The attempt to blind the CS magic detection would be seen by PSI corps and mutant animals with clairvoyance as a major threat to something they care about the security of the CS so they would a base 58% +2% per level so the average psi has 64% chance per psi and cost 4 isp wait that is better success rate than piloting a jet air craft.(so much for low success rate and high cost) In this case the are meditating on a threat that would undermine the security of the CS so it would be an event so no +5% for loved one.

No that is the rate for a SUMMONED vision on a specific topic.
Now sure if they are using one (or two) of their daily visions for "Is there a Sanction spell going to be cast against this Burb" then sure...
...but if they are doing THAT then they are not checking to make sure that no one is plotting to assassinate the Proseks, or teleport lesser a plasma bomb into the police station, or send an earth elemental to mess with a crop or...
They don't have an infinite number of clairvoyants.



Blue_Lion wrote:Plot armor is when nothing in game can justify something from not happening. In this case we have a in game solution so plot armor is not needed. The one forging plot armor is not me but the person saying that the in game defense is not being used because it is not part of the story. (in other words you)

This is plot armor because nothing in game CAN justify this
The only way it works is if the CS gets amazing visions of clarity beyond those of any other psychic.
Reliably
Every time
And it triggers every time that someone things about doing it
And destiny is polite and makes sure to not send the same warning to too many people (wouldn't want to waste ISP after all)
And it always happens with So much lead time that they can dispatch a kill team to find the mage and kill them before they cast the spell.
And the kill team can always get to the mage and stop them. Even though the mages can cast most of these spells from inside enemy territory.
And amazingly only the CS precogs get this kind of warning because there will never be a warning for the mage to set up a trap for the incoming CS
...
Yep, that's pretty much text book plot armor there.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:And the only way to get rid of them would be for Vanguard mages to cast Negate Magic on them as no mundane weapon will harm them.


More accurately, there is currently no other known way that has been found in recent canon.

Correct it would take a house rule to do it right now,
Or, wait for it... plot armor.


I guess that depends on how you define "plot armor," and what makes it different from "plot."
AFAIK, the CS city defenses are undefined, which means that any argument over what they could or could not overcome would necessarily rely on making stuff up.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by eliakon »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:And the only way to get rid of them would be for Vanguard mages to cast Negate Magic on them as no mundane weapon will harm them.


More accurately, there is currently no other known way that has been found in recent canon.

Correct it would take a house rule to do it right now,
Or, wait for it... plot armor.


I guess that depends on how you define "plot armor," and what makes it different from "plot."
AFAIK, the CS city defenses are undefined, which means that any argument over what they could or could not overcome would necessarily rely on making stuff up.

Granting someone something (that is not defined, described, and thus has no weaknesses or way to counter) , that otherwise canonically doesn't exist, for the sole purpose of overcoming a specific weakness that they possess is, to me a pretty good definition of the words 'plot armor' right there.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Axelmania »

wyrmraker wrote:I looked up Sanctum in the Book of Magic, and spotted a few difficulties with using it against Chi-Town.

First, it's a Level 13 spell. That makes it's availability extremely limited, since magical knowledge in pretty much all of Palladium is hoarded, protected, and mostly kept secret with a nasty savagery and price gouging. That secrecy *might* change after the fall of Tolkeen, but not according to the canon material.

We don't need a lot of people to know it, just one person who wants to wreck Chi-Town to know it.

wyrmraker wrote:Second, it costs 390 ppe to cast. Again, not a lot of mages have that kind of power to toss around. This kind of limitation can be overcome, but it would take time and planning.

If you can store triple your base you'd only need 130 PPE, easily doable with RMB's boost to the main OCC numbers.

Channeling 10 PPE per melee round from a ley line, 40 per minute, means you can launch one of these every 20 minutes.

I think ley line walkers can do double that, so every 10 minutes. This is basically a problem created by Ultime edition's higher PPE access rates, it didn't exist at the same rate of output originally.

The question is: how many miles away is the nearest ley line from chi-town?

wyrmraker wrote:That makes it kind of limited in it's utility apart from possibly a staging point or series of long-term distractions.

That's about the only use it has against the CS. You're actually making a place undead can't enter and which supernatural lessers have trouble entering, which is advantageous for the CS. The benefit you are giving to the CS of a place these monsters cannot enter has to be offset by the utility of the magic spell distraction.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:And the only way to get rid of them would be for Vanguard mages to cast Negate Magic on them as no mundane weapon will harm them.


More accurately, there is currently no other known way that has been found in recent canon.

Correct it would take a house rule to do it right now,
Or, wait for it... plot armor.


I guess that depends on how you define "plot armor," and what makes it different from "plot."
AFAIK, the CS city defenses are undefined, which means that any argument over what they could or could not overcome would necessarily rely on making stuff up.

Granting someone something (that is not defined, described, and thus has no weaknesses or way to counter) , that otherwise canonically doesn't exist, for the sole purpose of overcoming a specific weakness that they possess is, to me a pretty good definition of the words 'plot armor' right there.


To be clear: that's your definition, not merely an example?
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

wyrmraker wrote:It's use as a distraction would be good, but the spell would (by canon rules) be too rare and costly for such application, especially when there are other, less costly methods available.


The problem is that the "magik iz r supa rare" 'rule' is contradicted by other canon as often as not.

Ironwood should be super rare as well.

It demonstrably isn't, since you can get Ironwood armor for what a comparable EBA costs a lot of times. Dozens to hundreds of TWs in Arzno have the spell, alone. Now, would it be expensive? Of course, but expense really shouldn't be an issue to almost any moderately competent mid-low level group. But it isn't "rare". Expense and rarity aren't the same thing.

Pretty much no spell that sees heavy use in Technowizardry is "rare", no matter what the book says, because there are too many places that manufacture TW items and use the spells too often.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
wyrmraker wrote:It's use as a distraction would be good, but the spell would (by canon rules) be too rare and costly for such application, especially when there are other, less costly methods available.


The problem is that the "magik iz r supa rare" 'rule' is contradicted by other canon as often as not.

Ironwood should be super rare as well.

It demonstrably isn't, since you can get Ironwood armor for what a comparable EBA costs a lot of times.


I don't know if that logic holds.
There are a lot of factors involved.

Dozens to hundreds of TWs in Arzno have the spell, alone. Now, would it be expensive? Of course, but expense really shouldn't be an issue to almost any moderately competent mid-low level group. But it isn't "rare". Expense and rarity aren't the same thing.


Mega-Damage is supposed to be rare across the board.
Comparing Ironwood to EBA doesn't make it common, only as common as something that's already officially "rare."

[quotePretty much no spell that sees heavy use in Technowizardry is "rare", no matter what the book says, because there are too many places that manufacture TW items and use the spells too often.[/quote]

How many places manufacture TW items?
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
wyrmraker wrote:It's use as a distraction would be good, but the spell would (by canon rules) be too rare and costly for such application, especially when there are other, less costly methods available.


The problem is that the "magik iz r supa rare" 'rule' is contradicted by other canon as often as not.

Ironwood should be super rare as well.

It demonstrably isn't, since you can get Ironwood armor for what a comparable EBA costs a lot of times.


I don't know if that logic holds.
There are a lot of factors involved.

Dozens to hundreds of TWs in Arzno have the spell, alone. Now, would it be expensive? Of course, but expense really shouldn't be an issue to almost any moderately competent mid-low level group. But it isn't "rare". Expense and rarity aren't the same thing.


Mega-Damage is supposed to be rare across the board.


But it isn't. It's one of the many things that contradicts itself in the setting. Kevin may have wanted it to be that way, but like a lot of things in his vision, it didn't work out that way at all. (Like Rifts Earth being slow to travel around, like 'PF + Tech'). The books can say "MD is RARE!" all they want, but when the entirety of NA is littered with settlements that produce MD weapons or have them for sale, its demonstrably false. Even backwoods barbarians living in Dino Swamp have MD weaponry and armor.

Comparing Ironwood to EBA doesn't make it common, only as common as something that's already officially "rare."

Pretty much no spell that sees heavy use in Technowizardry is "rare", no matter what the book says, because there are too many places that manufacture TW items and use the spells too often.


How many places manufacture TW items?


Lazlo, New Lazlo, The Relic, La Oculta, Stormspire, The Colorado Baronies, Tolkeen (pre-fall), Arzno, several companies that dont have set bases (Magefire armaments, etc), Dweomer, Magestar, and Kingsdale.

And those are just the ones (in North America) i remembered without even having to touch a book.

Edit - touching a book, because i was remembering something and wanted to verify it - The CIty of Hope in the Barony of Hope alone has over 5,000 TWs, most of whom are levels 4-7, and 10% of which (500+) are over 8th.

Further edit:

Queenston Harbor (one of the best TW guns in the entire game world) and there is another un-defined community of Nuhr Dwarves that ISNT in QH that also manufactures their signature items.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Mega-Damage is supposed to be rare across the board.


But it isn't. It's one of the many things that contradicts itself in the setting. Kevin may have wanted it to be that way, but like a lot of things in his vision, it didn't work out that way at all. (Like Rifts Earth being slow to travel around, like 'PF + Tech'). The books can say "MD is RARE!" all they want, but when the entirety of NA is littered with settlements that produce MD weapons or have them for sale, its demonstrably false. Even backwoods barbarians living in Dino Swamp have MD weaponry and armor.


MDC isn't rare in the books. That's not the same as not being rare in the game world.
Super Powers on HU Earth are fairly rare, but they make up most of the content of the books.
Most people on N&S Earth are neither ninjas nor superspies, fro that matter.

How many places manufacture TW items?


Lazlo, New Lazlo, The Relic, La Oculta, Stormspire, The Colorado Baronies, Tolkeen (pre-fall), Arzno, several companies that dont have set bases (Magefire armaments, etc), Dweomer, Magestar, and Kingsdale.

And those are just the ones (in North America) i remembered without even having to touch a book.

Edit - touching a book, because i was remembering something and wanted to verify it - The CIty of Hope in the Barony of Hope alone has over 5,000 TWs, most of whom are levels 4-7, and 10% of which (500+) are over 8th.

Further edit:

Queenston Harbor (one of the best TW guns in the entire game world) and there is another un-defined community of Nuhr Dwarves that ISNT in QH that also manufactures their signature items.


So around 15 places world-wide, then?
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Colonel_Tetsuya »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Mega-Damage is supposed to be rare across the board.


But it isn't. It's one of the many things that contradicts itself in the setting. Kevin may have wanted it to be that way, but like a lot of things in his vision, it didn't work out that way at all. (Like Rifts Earth being slow to travel around, like 'PF + Tech'). The books can say "MD is RARE!" all they want, but when the entirety of NA is littered with settlements that produce MD weapons or have them for sale, its demonstrably false. Even backwoods barbarians living in Dino Swamp have MD weaponry and armor.


MDC isn't rare in the books. That's not the same as not being rare in the game world.
Super Powers on HU Earth are fairly rare, but they make up most of the content of the books.
Most people on N&S Earth are neither ninjas nor superspies, fro that matter.


Rare for what quantity of people? The entire population of NA is stated to be around ~50 million sentients. The CS alone has enough spare Old Style CS Armor and SAMAS to arm about 8 million of them. That's NOT including their actual standing army of several million men.

And that's just the CS. NG, Manistique, Wilks and the Black Market make billions in profit from the sale of MDC weapons and armor (and GAW and a few others) selling comparatively cheap MDC arms and armor (~70k per item or less). That means theyre shipping tens to hundreds of thousands of weapons a year. Easily.

MDC isn't rare in the books OR the setting, despite the rather feeble claims of "MDC is rare". The evidence that MDC is common far outstrips the few times where a sentence says "MDC is rare".

And we're not even getting in to populations where you dont have to have tech to have MDC. The Colorado Baronies, for instance... about 3/4 of the population has access to MDC power through magic or psionics or both.

How many places manufacture TW items?


Lazlo, New Lazlo, The Relic, La Oculta, Stormspire, The Colorado Baronies, Tolkeen (pre-fall), Arzno, several companies that dont have set bases (Magefire armaments, etc), Dweomer, Magestar, and Kingsdale.

And those are just the ones (in North America) i remembered without even having to touch a book.

Edit - touching a book, because i was remembering something and wanted to verify it - The CIty of Hope in the Barony of Hope alone has over 5,000 TWs, most of whom are levels 4-7, and 10% of which (500+) are over 8th.

Further edit:

Queenston Harbor (one of the best TW guns in the entire game world) and there is another un-defined community of Nuhr Dwarves that ISNT in QH that also manufactures their signature items.


So around 15 places world-wide, then?


World-wide? No. That was just NA, and off the top of my head.

And that's about as many places as produce tech, too. CS, Black Market (Bandito), Manistique (Wellington Industries), NG, Free Quebec, GAW, Iron Heart Armaments (defunct), Wilks, Naruni (available, at least)... that's about it, actually. Arzno, maybe, since they do produce a few MDC vehicles that aren't necessarily TW powered.

Edit: Triax, too, though they aren't in NA.
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Re: Sanctum assault on the CS

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Mega-Damage is supposed to be rare across the board.


But it isn't. It's one of the many things that contradicts itself in the setting. Kevin may have wanted it to be that way, but like a lot of things in his vision, it didn't work out that way at all. (Like Rifts Earth being slow to travel around, like 'PF + Tech'). The books can say "MD is RARE!" all they want, but when the entirety of NA is littered with settlements that produce MD weapons or have them for sale, its demonstrably false. Even backwoods barbarians living in Dino Swamp have MD weaponry and armor.


MDC isn't rare in the books. That's not the same as not being rare in the game world.
Super Powers on HU Earth are fairly rare, but they make up most of the content of the books.
Most people on N&S Earth are neither ninjas nor superspies, fro that matter.


Rare for what quantity of people?


Good question.
Also, it'd be good to ask "for what regions?"

The entire population of NA is stated to be around ~50 million sentients.


Where is that stated?

The CS alone has enough spare Old Style CS Armor and SAMAS to arm about 8 million of them. That's NOT including their actual standing army of several million men.


Source(s)?

And that's just the CS. NG, Manistique, Wilks and the Black Market make billions in profit from the sale of MDC weapons and armor (and GAW and a few others) selling comparatively cheap MDC arms and armor (~70k per item or less). That means theyre shipping tens to hundreds of thousands of weapons a year. Easily.


Source?

And we're not even getting in to populations where you dont have to have tech to have MDC. The Colorado Baronies, for instance... about 3/4 of the population has access to MDC power through magic or psionics or both.


Source?

World-wide? No. That was just NA, and off the top of my head.


Off the top of your head, plus a couple of edits.

And that's about as many places as produce tech, too. CS, Black Market (Bandito), Manistique (Wellington Industries), NG, Free Quebec, GAW, Iron Heart Armaments (defunct), Wilks, Naruni (available, at least)... that's about it, actually. Arzno, maybe, since they do produce a few MDC vehicles that aren't necessarily TW powered.

Edit: Triax, too, though they aren't in NA.


Not sure what you're saying there.

Regardless, how many places worldwide would you say produce MDC armor and weapons?
Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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