do most people on Rifts Earth have combat training (WPorHTH)

[Axelmania]

only 1 Weapon Proficiency OR a hand to hand skill, not required to have both

In response to this post viewtopic.php?p=2954890#p2954890 KC suggested I make a new thread for exploring this.

I decided to add a poll to get an idea of what everyone thinks, but aside from that am looking for replies from people to get an idea for your reasons for making your estimates.

Even though Rifts Ultimate Edition added HTH skills or WP skills for OCCs which previously did not have them, probably increasing the amount of people on Rifts Earth who have these skills, I am still not convinced that the majority of people would have either skill.

I'd say possibly a higher amount have skills like these than IRL since Rifts Earth is more dangerous than our world, but even then I'm still not convinced the majority would have them.

Children, for example, are people who wouldn't have had time to acquire skills like that, and unless you live in a high-tech super-city, you're probably not going to live to a long age and people are probably going to try and have lots of kids for free labour and repopulating the planet and stuff.

Where to acquire training is another issue. I imagine stuff available as secondary skills (basic, blunt, for example) could be self-taught, or conveyed via the friendly neighbourhood Scholar, but even then, would most people have time to spare on it?

The benefit WP give is somewhat marginal at low levels, and most people will be low levels. A +1 doesn't do that much for a D20 and time could be better spent learning a skill you couldn't otherwise do at all, like first aid or literacy.

The RUE improvements to OCCs also don't seem of major concern since I think many NPCs (not just kids, but just your average rube) wouldn't be good enough to warrant an OCC. They may just have a small smattering of skills which don't include WP or HTH.

[Killer Cyborg]

What about skills such as Weapons Systems, Pilot Tanks, Boxing, Fencing, Wrestling, Kickboxing, and so forth?

[Axelmania]

Fencing requires a WP as a prereq so it's irrelevant.

RUE 316 Boxing/Kickboxing/Wrestling are fighting techniques, they improve the range of fighting ability. I would exclude Wrestling (much as I would like to include it) due to 317's "more of a sport than a combat skill" which sets a precedent for "fighting technique" not guaranteeing "combat skill" (even though I'd be pressed to tell you the difference between 'fighting' and the broad way Palladium uses combat)

I'm beginning to wonder if you can even take Kickboxing on its own. It doesn't have a "Requires: " like Fencing but "The character who takes Kick Boxing has done maybe a few months or a year of casual training as a supplement to his usual Hand to Hand Combat skill" seems to communicate a similar idea.

I guess in theory ANY vehicle could be used as a weapon to ram someone, but it falls outside the realm of what I've seen described as 'combat' skills. I don't know if someone with Pilot: Military: Tanks & APCs is necessarily better at firing the gun than someone untrained but firing a parked tank.

You didn't mention these but I just realized 3 other piloting skills (Combat Driving / Flight System Combat/ Robot Combat) would qualify since 'combat' is in the name. I'd basically consider them similar to HTHs.

Horsemanship: General won't qualify in spite of its bonuses (similar to athletics) since it explicitly says "not trained for combat". Not sure about the other forms.

Even though Weapons Systems doesn't say 'combat' we may as well let it qualify.

These high-tech skills are probably so rare that it's doubtful they'd tip the scales in any major way. I imagine most people who have them already have a WP or HTH due to their association with military/soldiering. Exceptions would probably be injured guys, mad scientists, politicians, etc. Horsemanship is the major question since that's probably something a lot of wilderness people would have. I imagine most would just have basic though, which is explicitly not combat training, despite its very useful bonuses in combat (much like Aerobic Athletics and Athletics General give)

Would be interested if anyone knows any OCCs which start out with just one of these though.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Mostly it would depend if the character was from a urbin or rural area. The former no, the latter yes.

[Killer Cyborg]

Fencing requires a WP as a prereq so it's irrelevant.

RUE 316 Boxing/Kickboxing/Wrestling are fighting techniques, they improve the range of fighting ability. I would exclude Wrestling (much as I would like to include it) due to 317's "more of a sport than a combat skill" which sets a precedent for "fighting technique" not guaranteeing "combat skill" (even though I'd be pressed to tell you the difference between 'fighting' and the broad way Palladium uses combat)

I'm beginning to wonder if you can even take Kickboxing on its own. It doesn't have a "Requires: " like Fencing but "The character who takes Kick Boxing has done maybe a few months or a year of casual training as a supplement to his usual Hand to Hand Combat skill" seems to communicate a similar idea.

I guess in theory ANY vehicle could be used as a weapon to ram someone, but it falls outside the realm of what I've seen described as 'combat' skills. I don't know if someone with Pilot: Military: Tanks & APCs is necessarily better at firing the gun than someone untrained but firing a parked tank.

You didn't mention these but I just realized 3 other piloting skills (Combat Driving / Flight System Combat/ Robot Combat) would qualify since 'combat' is in the name. I'd basically consider them similar to HTHs.

Horsemanship: General won't qualify in spite of its bonuses (similar to athletics) since it explicitly says "not trained for combat". Not sure about the other forms.

Seems reasonable.

Even though Weapons Systems doesn't say 'combat' we may as well let it qualify.

It's not likely to come up by itself, especially not in significant numbers, but it's good to be prepared.

[Axelmania]

As a starting demographic to examine, the Splugorth captures slaves whose skills would reflect the communities they come from, but they also breed their own slaves.

We know they have warrior slaves with combat skills (T-Men) but there are also a bunch of humans they just raise for food, and who they probably avoid teaching anything to and punish teaching since it would make them dangerous escape-risks.

I imagine the CS wouldn't be fond of non-soldiers learning HTH or Weapons either, after all you can rely on the CS to protect you and settle your disputes for you! If a real danger comes along like a supernatural being, you should just Dodge (Athletics!) and flee (Running) since you won't have the MD weapons needed to hurt it.

Of course... since HTH does give a dodge bonus, the CS is probably okay with people training in the basics to better than Gurgoyle-dodging skills. I guess that would qualify Boxing too. =/

[dragonfett]

If we include children into the mix, I would have to say no, but if we look only at people who are old enough to earn a living for themselves (not people being kept as slaves), then I would say yes.

[Shark_Force]

well, any of them *could* have it, to some degree. i wouldn't say that most people on rifts earth are good at combat, but i would point out that based on your definition, most modern hunters (for example) would likely count as "combat trained" because they're generally proficient with some form of ranged weapon (rifle, shotgun, bow, crossbow, etc), but i doubt that the typical hunter would really consider themselves combat trained.

i don't think most people on rifts earth are trained for combat. this is not to say that none of them have skills that might be useful if combat comes up... to keep using my example above, i might expect a typical hunter to have WP rifle and prowl, both of which would make them better than if they didn't have those skills in the event that combat breaks out, but they didn't learn about how to use those skills in the context of combat, they learned how to use those skills in the context of hunting animals.

most anyone on rifts earth *could* be trained in skills that are useful in combat.but i don't think most people are really trained for the purpose of combat as a rule. there will certainly be some who expect regular conflict to be part of their lives, and many of them would be combat trained, but even then i think you'd find some instead focus on skills to avoid combat (like concealment and prowl, or finding a way to make themselves useful enough that people generally don't try to kill them).

after all, even if you go to the most violent places in IRL earth, you'll find many of them aren't combat trained, but have instead found other methods of coping with the violence around them.

[Killer Cyborg]

When we're looking at the "people of Rifts Earth," there are some important things that we need to figure out:
1. What are "people" in this context?
Do D-Bees count? Do Supernatural creatures? Do monsters? Or are we just looking at humans? Or humans and certain kinds of humanoids?

2. In general, there are two basic kinds of populations; rural and urban. They're likely as a rule to have different kinds of skill sets.
We should try to determine where the bulk of the population lies, and how bulky it is. For example, if 90% of the population of North America is composed of CS citizens who live in Chi-Town and the other cities, then we should try to figure out what the average CS city-dwelling citizen is like, because that could likely answer our question without further research--that remaining 10% would only matter if the Trained vs. Untrained population of the cities was pretty close.
(No, I don't think that it's actually 90% to 10%. It might be the reverse, but probably not that either. This point is about research tactics, not about specific numbers so far, other than to say that we should find those numbers if we can.)

[Killer Cyborg]

well, any of them *could* have it, to some degree. i wouldn't say that most people on rifts earth are good at combat, but i would point out that based on your definition, most modern hunters (for example) would likely count as "combat trained" because they're generally proficient with some form of ranged weapon (rifle, shotgun, bow, crossbow, etc), but i doubt that the typical hunter would really consider themselves combat trained.

i don't think most people on rifts earth are trained for combat. this is not to say that none of them have skills that might be useful if combat comes up... to keep using my example above, i might expect a typical hunter to have WP rifle and prowl, both of which would make them better than if they didn't have those skills in the event that combat breaks out, but they didn't learn about how to use those skills in the context of combat, they learned how to use those skills in the context of hunting animals.

For the purposes of this conversation, we seem to be going with the technical description of weapon proficiencies providing "combat training" with that weapon, and therefore technically providing combat training.

[Killer Cyborg]

If we include children into the mix, I would have to say no, but if we look only at people who are old enough to earn a living for themselves (not people being kept as slaves), then I would say yes.

Excellent point about children.

[Killer Cyborg]

I imagine the CS wouldn't be fond of non-soldiers learning HTH or Weapons either, after all you can rely on the CS to protect you and settle your disputes for you!

The CS would probably like their recruiting pool to be somewhat capable to begin with.
Also, I think they'd be good with citizens outside of the fortress cities being prepared to defend themselves. IIRC, one of the purposes of The Burbs is to serve as a kind of living moat against invaders--they'd have to fight through the Burbs first, and the Burbites fighting for their own survival would act as unwitting shock troops against the enemies.

[HWalsh]

In general? Probably not.

Now we're talking about "normal" people rather than "people with OCCs" of course...

Hand to Hand: Basic - Aside from the fact that were told that those who have it are better than most ordinary people, I look at who's going to learn it.

True story:
I live in Georgia, the state, not the country. I know tons of people who think they have at least hand to hand: basic but don't.

I also know tons of people who own guns. Lots and lots of guns. Most of those people DO NOT have the WP to back it up.

I have a friend we'll call B. B has a friend named M. B was in the military, recon. M was a cop in Miami for 6 years. He invited about 6 of us out 2 years ago to his farm to go shooting.

Now, I, do not own a gun. The other people who showed up all brought guns. I, however, went through basic, and when I was a professor would play a lot on the police trainer the school maintained for the local police department.

It was a big screen that used guns that simulated feedback etc. Was fun.

Anyway...

So B and M take a bit of time in the middle of shooting to teach everyone how to do a tactical reload. Which, in this case, was advancing toward a target (in our case an old wooden table that was picked up from the dump and flipped on its end) with a pistol while shooting, only to drop the current magazine (do NOT call it a clip) and load a fresh one without breaking stride.

This ability is defined in WP Pistol.

I... Sucked... At this.

I did better than anyone else there who wasn't B or M but I sucked at this. I could do it, but was sloppy and nowhere near as smooth as B or M.

The other guys?

No.

These are hunters, farmers, etc. People you expect to have these WPs.

Yet, no.

So I think people having the WPs, in rural areas even, are pretty rare. B used to also buy a lot of guns from pawn shops and would complain about how many people couldn't take care of their guns.

HtH takes time to learn. Not only that, but guns hamper the process. Your average person isn't going to spend years learning how to fight with their fists if they have a gun.

Don't believe me? Go to any gun forum and ask people if they recommend learning martial arts. You'll see tons of people telling you how useless that is when you have a gun.

Why?

The average person is lazy and, to some degree, ignorant about fighting. I see no reason for that to change in Rifts. Boxing, wrestling, kickboxing... All the same.

Every character in Rifts takes Boxing because of the extra attack/melee. Let's be honest. It's only for that. People don't take into account the logic of learning it, or even contemplate how hard it is to learn boxing.

6+ months, every day, hitting the gym, sparring, practicing on the heavy/speed bag, physical conditioning, running, weight and resistance training... All because players want +1 attack per round.

For a normal person? I don't assume they know about +1 attack per round. I assume they look at it like, "And for all your fancy bobbing and weaving it's going to do jack and squat in against MDC armor or skin."

Now we look at the situations most people who need guns will be in.

Most will do 1d6 to 2d6 MD. They are going to use them against dangerous SDC predators. They might take shots at a small MDC creature but against anything big they're not going to do much unless they're tending the fields in full EBA armor.

So I think a rare few will have actual WP training (also remember how much 1 eclip costs) and even fewer will have HtH training. Fewer still will have boxing or wrestling.

[Mack]

Keep in mind that despite having a few hundred OCCs to survey, OCCs are player characters and not representative of the population at large.

Even if every single OCC was combat trained, that would have no bearing on whether "most people on Rifts Earth" are combat trained.

[ShadowLogan]

I suspect no that most people on Rifts Earth do not have combat training. It might also vary from race to race (ex Humans or Lyn-Srial no, but Fennodi in WB14/30 would due to the automatic HTH skill they receive).

[dreicunan]

For what it is worth, I think that many of you are seriously underestimating the impact on use of time that living on Rifts Earth would have. I'm pretty sure that those who live outside the CS or other bastions of civilization would at least be teaching their children the basics of weapon use so that they'd have a chance if something happens. That would especially be true for those who are direct descendants of survivors of the coming of the rifts. If your family managed to survive all those years to make it to 109 PA, then knowing how to defend yourself is probably part of the reason that your family survived. That to me translates to people at least having a WP or two. That is why I don't see using current people and their familiarity with how to use their weapons as a good guide: very few people in our world live or die depending on their skill with a weapon.

[HWalsh]

For what it is worth, I think that many of you are seriously underestimating the impact on use of time that living on Rifts Earth would have. I'm pretty sure that those who live outside the CS or other bastions of civilization would at least be teaching their children the basics of weapon use so that they'd have a chance if something happens. That would especially be true for those who are direct descendants of survivors of the coming of the rifts. If your family managed to survive all those years to make it to 109 PA, then knowing how to defend yourself is probably part of the reason that your family survived. That to me translates to people at least having a WP or two. That is why I don't see using current people and their familiarity with how to use their weapons as a good guide: very few people in our world live or die depending on their skill with a weapon.

First understand that 2098 was the year of the coming of the Rifts.

1 PA wasn't until 2287.

The main horrors of the Rifts ended in 2194.

In 109 PA the main horrors of the Rifts haven't been on Earth or dealt with by humans for 202 years. If they live in North America people haven't been in those dire straights for centuries.

In 63 PA the CS rose to power. At that point the CS took over protection duties.

Average families don't need to rely on self defense in Rifts. They, towns, usually employ people for that. Meaning the assumption is flawed.

63 PA to 109 PA is 46 years, we, however know that Erin Tarn was born in a peaceful time in 37 PA. So we're looking at a non-chaotic 62 years.

It is 2017 in the real world. 62 years ago was 1955 and people were recovering from World War II still. We don't practice the things they did, regardless of family histories.

I think you overestimate the dangers average people face in Rifts.

[Blue_Lion]

While most PC are likely to have such training as they tend to expect to be in a fight, the average person in a city would not.

[RubberBoot]

90% of the population of Arzno over the age of 12 have 1 ancient and 1 modern WP

[Killer Cyborg]

While most PC are likely to have such training as they tend to expect to be in a fight, the average person in a city would not.

Care to support that claim?

[HWalsh]

While most PC are likely to have such training as they tend to expect to be in a fight, the average person in a city would not.

Care to support that claim?

RUE Pg. 347

Under "Hand to Hand: Basic"
1st Paragraph
2nd Sentence

"Though it hardly stacks up against some of the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple, everyday folk without training."

Emphasis mine.

[Killer Cyborg]

While most PC are likely to have such training as they tend to expect to be in a fight, the average person in a city would not.

Care to support that claim?

RUE Pg. 347

Under "Hand to Hand: Basic"
1st Paragraph
2nd Sentence

"Though it hardly stacks up against some of the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple, everyday folk without training."

Emphasis mine.

Not bad!
But it's not the same as saying that simple, everyday folk don't have training by default.
It's not "compared to the simple, everyday folk (who have no training)," it's just referring to simple, everyday folk who happen to have no training.


(also, it could be talking about rural folks, opposed to city-dwellers.)

[HWalsh]

While most PC are likely to have such training as they tend to expect to be in a fight, the average person in a city would not.

Care to support that claim?

RUE Pg. 347

Under "Hand to Hand: Basic"
1st Paragraph
2nd Sentence

"Though it hardly stacks up against some of the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple, everyday folk without training."

Emphasis mine.

Not bad!
But it's not the same as saying that simple, everyday folk don't have training by default.
It's not "compared to the simple, everyday folk (who have no training)," it's just referring to simple, everyday folk who happen to have no training.


(also, it could be talking about rural folks, opposed to city-dwellers.)

I think that you are reaching on this one: "it's just referring to simple, everyday folk who happen to have no training" LOL

I don't think so. I mean, to be honest, city-dwellers with easier access to law enforcement are likely to have less training. Kind of like how more rural folk know how to shoot guns than city folk due to hunting and what not. (though I still disagree with them having WP for it heh.)

[Killer Cyborg]

While most PC are likely to have such training as they tend to expect to be in a fight, the average person in a city would not.

Care to support that claim?

RUE Pg. 347

Under "Hand to Hand: Basic"
1st Paragraph
2nd Sentence

"Though it hardly stacks up against some of the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple, everyday folk without training."

Emphasis mine.

Not bad!
But it's not the same as saying that simple, everyday folk don't have training by default.
It's not "compared to the simple, everyday folk (who have no training)," it's just referring to simple, everyday folk who happen to have no training.


(also, it could be talking about rural folks, opposed to city-dwellers.)

I think that you are reaching on this one: "it's just referring to simple, everyday folk who happen to have no training" LOL

Eh. I don't think it's a reach.
But opinions vary.

I don't think so. I mean, to be honest, city-dwellers with easier access to law enforcement are likely to have less training. Kind of like how more rural folk know how to shoot guns than city folk due to hunting and what not. (though I still disagree with them having WP for it heh.)

I agree that as a general human trend, people with easy access to law enforcement are likely to have less combat training.
With the caveat that the law enforcement makes them feel safer, and does not make them feel threatened.

[Shark_Force]

For what it is worth, I think that many of you are seriously underestimating the impact on use of time that living on Rifts Earth would have. I'm pretty sure that those who live outside the CS or other bastions of civilization would at least be teaching their children the basics of weapon use so that they'd have a chance if something happens. That would especially be true for those who are direct descendants of survivors of the coming of the rifts. If your family managed to survive all those years to make it to 109 PA, then knowing how to defend yourself is probably part of the reason that your family survived. That to me translates to people at least having a WP or two. That is why I don't see using current people and their familiarity with how to use their weapons as a good guide: very few people in our world live or die depending on their skill with a weapon.

if the average person in rifts north america had both training with and access to weapons and equipment that were at all likely to enable them to deal with any remotely dangerous threats, then the CS would not have large numbers of people moving to their cities for safety from supernatural threats, nor would other communities have any need to try to get into the CS for protection. and also, invading *anywhere* would be a horrific nightmare. the splugorth raids would probably be a lot less successful, because a village of 200 people all trained for combat and armed with laser rifles will make very short work of half a dozen altaarans and a slaver simply by sheer weight of numbers.

the setting describes half a dozen people with beat up MDC armour and laser rifles being able to just walk in and declare themselves to be in charge of the typical town. that doesn't work if *everyone* has MDC armour and laser rifles, it only works if the group showing up are the only ones with MDC armour and MD weapons and the training to use them (or at least, if very few other people do)

we typically play PCs. it makes sense for us to try to solve problems in the rifts setting with combat training for a variety of reasons (we have access to the gear and the training while others typically don't, for example, not to mention that for a lot of people that's how they have fun, plus, if our character dies, we ourselves remain perfectly safe, and will probably be permitted to roll up a new character who mysteriously shows up and is instantly accepted by the rest of the party because reasons).

for other people, well, every single shot fired is something like 100 credits down the drain (it varies by weapon, of course... some guns might get that down to 40 or so, some might go as high as 300 or more), if you can even recharge an e-clip in the area at all. taking a few points of MDC off your armour represents thousands of credits worth of damage to repair. losing 30 or 40 MDC doesn't mean you had to cast armour of ithan a few more times, it means the next time you have to deal with a threat your armour might be destroyed and you might take an MD blast straight to what used to be your torso before it became a rapidly expanding cloud of vapourized human.

for a typical person, hiding or negotiating makes a heck of a lot more sense. for the people that don't, well, the mortality rate amongst them likely keeps their numbers pretty low.

[Killer Cyborg]

the setting describes half a dozen people with beat up MDC armour and laser rifles being able to just walk in and declare themselves to be in charge of the typical town. that doesn't work if *everyone* has MDC armour and laser rifles, it only works if the group showing up are the only ones with MDC armour and MD weapons and the training to use them (or at least, if very few other people do)

But they could well have SDC armor and weapons, along with training.

[HWalsh]

the setting describes half a dozen people with beat up MDC armour and laser rifles being able to just walk in and declare themselves to be in charge of the typical town. that doesn't work if *everyone* has MDC armour and laser rifles, it only works if the group showing up are the only ones with MDC armour and MD weapons and the training to use them (or at least, if very few other people do)

But they could well have SDC armor and weapons, along with training.

Wouldn't make sense. At that point they'd only be lacking weapons and armor, which are actually cheap and easy to get.

Why do you believe the average person *is* combat trained. We've given you our reasoning and citations to support why they aren't. Turnabout is fair play after all.

[Killer Cyborg]

the setting describes half a dozen people with beat up MDC armour and laser rifles being able to just walk in and declare themselves to be in charge of the typical town. that doesn't work if *everyone* has MDC armour and laser rifles, it only works if the group showing up are the only ones with MDC armour and MD weapons and the training to use them (or at least, if very few other people do)

But they could well have SDC armor and weapons, along with training.

Wouldn't make sense. At that point they'd only be lacking weapons and armor, which are actually cheap and easy to get.

Not so much.
And a lot depends on what you're up against.
Remember, originally the majority of monsters in Rifts had SDC vulnerabilities. If you live near vamps, were-creatures, or any number of the other beasties that are vulnerable to certain attacks, SDC weapons/armor are good enough.

Or if you live in a place where SDC humans are the norm.
Remember, MDC is supposed to be rare.

Why do you believe the average person *is* combat trained. We've given you our reasoning and citations to support why they aren't. Turnabout is fair play after all.

When I made the statement, I mostly had PCs in mind.
But who knows. I could be wrong when it comes to the overall population, hence my interest in the thread.
As I've said, a LOT rides on how you define "people."
If only humans count, that's one thing. If demons and such count, that's another.

[dreicunan]

For what it is worth, I think that many of you are seriously underestimating the impact on use of time that living on Rifts Earth would have. I'm pretty sure that those who live outside the CS or other bastions of civilization would at least be teaching their children the basics of weapon use so that they'd have a chance if something happens. That would especially be true for those who are direct descendants of survivors of the coming of the rifts. If your family managed to survive all those years to make it to 109 PA, then knowing how to defend yourself is probably part of the reason that your family survived. That to me translates to people at least having a WP or two. That is why I don't see using current people and their familiarity with how to use their weapons as a good guide: very few people in our world live or die depending on their skill with a weapon.

First understand that 2098 was the year of the coming of the Rifts.

1 PA wasn't until 2287.

The main horrors of the Rifts ended in 2194.

In 109 PA the main horrors of the Rifts haven't been on Earth or dealt with by humans for 202 years. If they live in North America people haven't been in those dire straights for centuries.

In 63 PA the CS rose to power. At that point the CS took over protection duties.

Average families don't need to rely on self defense in Rifts. They, towns, usually employ people for that. Meaning the assumption is flawed.

63 PA to 109 PA is 46 years, we, however know that Erin Tarn was born in a peaceful time in 37 PA. So we're looking at a non-chaotic 62 years.

It is 2017 in the real world. 62 years ago was 1955 and people were recovering from World War II still. We don't practice the things they did, regardless of family histories.

I think you overestimate the dangers average people face in Rifts.

We don't live in a world were a cat could be a dragon; WWII was a pleasant afternoon fist fight compared to the coming of the rifts, and there are plenty of reminders around of why you need to know how to use the family L-20. The CS only protects the areas under its protection. In a world where professional gamblers start with HtH: Expert and Barmaids get HtH: Basic, I have a tough time believing that those who live outside the CS megacities don't have at least a WP. That is not incongruent with a world in which MD is rare (so rare that the CS has how many spare SAMAS just sitting around? The writers do an atrocious job of supporting this idea). Also keep in mind populations like the NGR where you have large portions of society that did military service.

[eliakon]

Another thing to think about on the "MDC is rare so people shouldn't be combat trained"
That was in what? 104 PA?
Since then we have had a couple major wars, at least two major dimensional incursions and a massive proliferation in military/industrial sector.
104 PA Northern Guns marketing was putting one suit of PA on the market... that was all the market would bear presumably.
Now it is commercially viable for them to have over a dozen different lines of Power Armor, plus Mecha, tanks and the like.
That tells me that what ever the commonality of military grade weaponry was a decade ago... its not that anymore.

Its like our world... look at Iraq.
It went from a place where pretty much no one had weapons to a place where military gear is available for open sale in the streets, people wear body armor and assault rifles out shopping...

[nwebster]

I personally feel that WPs and HtH skills are different from Combat Training. Learning how to shoot a weapon or hip throw someone doesn't mean that you know how to clear a house or move in formation. Combat Training isn't only Shooting/weapon care and fisticuffs.

Also keep in mind that there is a difference in the people depending on "geography". People in large cities that are protected are less likely to learn WPs or HrH or have any type of combat training at all, Where as people that live out in the country relatively unprotected by a larger entity/army would have to, if only for the reasons of hunting food. Take the CS for the most extreme example of cities. The CS like to regulate damn near everything from what I can tell, so I wouldn't figure they'd take kindly to civilians learning to shoot or going to Krav Maga class in the middle of Chi Town. On the other hand Ye Ole Country Town is where everyone knows how to use at least a couple guns for hunting (you don't shoot a deer with a rabbit gun after all) and some form of HtH like Boxing or some other form of martial art and they have a friend competition at the annual fall festival.

Just my thoughts.

[Blue_Lion]

I imagine the CS wouldn't be fond of non-soldiers learning HTH or Weapons either, after all you can rely on the CS to protect you and settle your disputes for you!

The CS would probably like their recruiting pool to be somewhat capable to begin with.
Also, I think they'd be good with citizens outside of the fortress cities being prepared to defend themselves. IIRC, one of the purposes of The Burbs is to serve as a kind of living moat against invaders--they'd have to fight through the Burbs first, and the Burbites fighting for their own survival would act as unwitting shock troops against the enemies.

They may want them in shape but the they also want them to fight a cetain way. People with the wrong type of training or combat ideas tend to do worse in basic. They have to many bad habits it is quicker to train some one with no training or bad habits than retrain some one with them.

[Shark_Force]

We don't live in a world were a cat could be a dragon; WWII was a pleasant afternoon fist fight compared to the coming of the rifts, and there are plenty of reminders around of why you need to know how to use the family L-20. The CS only protects the areas under its protection. In a world where professional gamblers start with HtH: Expert and Barmaids get HtH: Basic, I have a tough time believing that those who live outside the CS megacities don't have at least a WP. That is not incongruent with a world in which MD is rare (so rare that the CS has how many spare SAMAS just sitting around? The writers do an atrocious job of supporting this idea). Also keep in mind populations like the NGR where you have large portions of society that did military service.

well, the people on rifts earth typically don't live in places where a bomb could land on their head and there isn't much they can do to stop it. the coming of the rifts sucked, sure. but the main reason WW II didn't do to europe what the coming of the rifts did to the world is that there were some places after WW II that were relatively unscathed that helped the world recover (well, also WW II lasted a lot less time).

ultimately, it doesn't much matter whether the surprise death came from a dragon you thought was a cat (though why people keep bringing that up is beyond me - why the hell would a dragon care enough to disguise itself as a cat before killing a regular person? it's a dragon. if it wants you dead, it can just fly up *as a dragon* and seriously, what are you going to do to stop it?). death could come just as suddenly for people living in WW II war zones (and in modern war zones for that matter).

and yet, most people are not combat trained.

and yes, gamblers and barmaids have hand to hand skills... or at least, the ones that are adventurers and noteworthy NPCs do. those are the classes they show us. not random people.

Another thing to think about on the "MDC is rare so people shouldn't be combat trained"
That was in what? 104 PA?
Since then we have had a couple major wars, at least two major dimensional incursions and a massive proliferation in military/industrial sector.
104 PA Northern Guns marketing was putting one suit of PA on the market... that was all the market would bear presumably.
Now it is commercially viable for them to have over a dozen different lines of Power Armor, plus Mecha, tanks and the like.
That tells me that what ever the commonality of military grade weaponry was a decade ago... its not that anymore.

Its like our world... look at Iraq.
It went from a place where pretty much no one had weapons to a place where military gear is available for open sale in the streets, people wear body armor and assault rifles out shopping...

or, you know, we didn't have 2 books to devote to the stuff NG makes. that's also a possibility.

and i bet there are still a ton of people (probably the majority) who don't have weapons. and of those who have them, many probably don't really know how to use them, especially if they only got them a short time ago and haven't had time to develop the skills.

[Saitou Hajime]

Majority of the rural population of Free Rural population of Rifts likely does [ie Not Slaves which exist is several places in the world in large amounts] large Urban settlements it will become less so until you get to place like Japanese cities, CS Cities, NGR Cities where the majority will not. The Biggest contribution is how much of your personal sercurity is taken care by others [Police, Militia, and/or Army/Armed forces.

[eliakon]

Another thing to think about on the "MDC is rare so people shouldn't be combat trained"
That was in what? 104 PA?
Since then we have had a couple major wars, at least two major dimensional incursions and a massive proliferation in military/industrial sector.
104 PA Northern Guns marketing was putting one suit of PA on the market... that was all the market would bear presumably.
Now it is commercially viable for them to have over a dozen different lines of Power Armor, plus Mecha, tanks and the like.
That tells me that what ever the commonality of military grade weaponry was a decade ago... its not that anymore.

Its like our world... look at Iraq.
It went from a place where pretty much no one had weapons to a place where military gear is available for open sale in the streets, people wear body armor and assault rifles out shopping...

or, you know, we didn't have 2 books to devote to the stuff NG makes. that's also a possibility.

The point still is that NG now is able to make a profit selling not one line of power armor but thirty two (32) different lines of power armor.
That means that there is enough demand for Power Armor out there that the sales support, for just their brand alone, THIRTY TWO different lines of power armor. That means that they are selling enough suits that its profitable for them to keep up the R&D and churning them out... and that it is profitable enough to make specific suits for such tasks as fire-fighting, mining, and search and rescue.
That tells me that if a for profit company is making this stuff, that someone is buying it.
Enough someone's that they are making money (since otherwise they wouldn't make it)
And that suggests that there are an awful lot of power armor suits out there.
That's just power armor. That doesn't include any of the other war materials or any of the other vendors.
A decade ago? Yeah it was rare... but now? North America is awash in war surplus and military hardware.

[Shark_Force]

The point still is that NG now is able to make a profit selling not one line of power armor but thirty two (32) different lines of power armor.
That means that there is enough demand for Power Armor out there that the sales support, for just their brand alone, THIRTY TWO different lines of power armor. That means that they are selling enough suits that its profitable for them to keep up the R&D and churning them out... and that it is profitable enough to make specific suits for such tasks as fire-fighting, mining, and search and rescue.
That tells me that if a for profit company is making this stuff, that someone is buying it.
Enough someone's that they are making money (since otherwise they wouldn't make it)
And that suggests that there are an awful lot of power armor suits out there.
That's just power armor. That doesn't include any of the other war materials or any of the other vendors.
A decade ago? Yeah it was rare... but now? North America is awash in war surplus and military hardware.

or, as i already said, we just didn't have anywhere near the entire list of stuff that NG sold in the core book. just like we didn't have all the stuff that triax or wilks or titan or anyone else sold at the time. because the core book was not infinitely large, and indeed had to stay small enough that it could be reasonably priced and yet still turn a profit.

[eliakon]

The point still is that NG now is able to make a profit selling not one line of power armor but thirty two (32) different lines of power armor.
That means that there is enough demand for Power Armor out there that the sales support, for just their brand alone, THIRTY TWO different lines of power armor. That means that they are selling enough suits that its profitable for them to keep up the R&D and churning them out... and that it is profitable enough to make specific suits for such tasks as fire-fighting, mining, and search and rescue.
That tells me that if a for profit company is making this stuff, that someone is buying it.
Enough someone's that they are making money (since otherwise they wouldn't make it)
And that suggests that there are an awful lot of power armor suits out there.
That's just power armor. That doesn't include any of the other war materials or any of the other vendors.
A decade ago? Yeah it was rare... but now? North America is awash in war surplus and military hardware.

or, as i already said, we just didn't have anywhere near the entire list of stuff that NG sold in the core book. just like we didn't have all the stuff that triax or wilks or titan or anyone else sold at the time. because the core book was not infinitely large, and indeed had to stay small enough that it could be reasonably priced and yet still turn a profit.

The core book though talked about how hard it was to buy stuff like power armor and military weapons...
...and now, a decade later there are franchised show rooms with overnight home delivery.

A decade ago the CS was said to be one of the few people that had Mega Damage technology...
...today there are over a dozen major corporations in North America churning out MDC gear

Yes, the first book was limited in what it had in it. But the world it set up has changed, radically as well.
We have gone from "it is dangerous to travel a few miles" to "commercial airlines, continent wide touring sports networks, and regular postal services"
We have gone from "there are only a handful of tiny kingdoms" to "scores of cities with populations over 50,000"
The world has changed. And I find it hard to believe that everything else has changed... except that magically that somehow this one bit of near-fluff hasn't.

To use a phrase I saw here before (sorry I don't recall the original source I would credit them)
Rifts in the RMB was post-apocalypse.
Rifts now days is post-post-apocalypse.

[Blue_Lion]

The point still is that NG now is able to make a profit selling not one line of power armor but thirty two (32) different lines of power armor.
That means that there is enough demand for Power Armor out there that the sales support, for just their brand alone, THIRTY TWO different lines of power armor. That means that they are selling enough suits that its profitable for them to keep up the R&D and churning them out... and that it is profitable enough to make specific suits for such tasks as fire-fighting, mining, and search and rescue.
That tells me that if a for profit company is making this stuff, that someone is buying it.
Enough someone's that they are making money (since otherwise they wouldn't make it)
And that suggests that there are an awful lot of power armor suits out there.
That's just power armor. That doesn't include any of the other war materials or any of the other vendors.
A decade ago? Yeah it was rare... but now? North America is awash in war surplus and military hardware.

or, as i already said, we just didn't have anywhere near the entire list of stuff that NG sold in the core book. just like we didn't have all the stuff that triax or wilks or titan or anyone else sold at the time. because the core book was not infinitely large, and indeed had to stay small enough that it could be reasonably priced and yet still turn a profit.

The core book though talked about how hard it was to buy stuff like power armor and military weapons...
...and now, a decade later there are franchised show rooms with overnight home delivery.

A decade ago the CS was said to be one of the few people that had Mega Damage technology...
...today there are over a dozen major corporations in North America churning out MDC gear

Yes, the first book was limited in what it had in it. But the world it set up has changed, radically as well.
We have gone from "it is dangerous to travel a few miles" to "commercial airlines, continent wide touring sports networks, and regular postal services"
We have gone from "there are only a handful of tiny kingdoms" to "scores of cities with populations over 50,000"
The world has changed. And I find it hard to believe that everything else has changed... except that magically that somehow this one bit of near-fluff hasn't.

To use a phrase I saw here before (sorry I don't recall the original source I would credit them)
Rifts in the RMB was post-apocalypse.
Rifts now days is post-post-apocalypse.

Part of the issue is that such tech is suppose to be rare for normal people but the books are written to cater to players. Shiny new gear is a way to help sale books.

[Axelmania]

Bigger populations and bigger MDC catalogues doesn't necessarily drive up the average person's wealth to be able to obtain any of it.

Weapon use seems a lot more useful for villagers in SDC worlds where mundane weaponry could do more and you might survive a hit or two via your personal or armor SDC.

In Rifts unless you are the wealthy elite who can afford Mega, something like Detect Ambush or Lore: Demons is probably much more important than WP Blunt.

When it comes to guns Ultimate did change one major thing. Originally if you lacked WP it took double the time to reload a gun. Now though if you lack a WP you cannot reload at all.

So basically anyone who can reload a gun must be assumed to have WP, a major thing we did not have to assume before.

Still though: even SDC guns are sorta expensive. 50 to 500 credits for a .22/.25 recover is cheapest gun I know of. Also loud, might attract MDC predators.

You don't need a WP to reload a bow or crossbow since they aren't modern. They are quiet, reusable. I bet a lot of people would move to these.Cant recall where to get rifts SDC ammo costs. Caseless SDC is 30 for 50 shots.but not sure if casing bullets are more or less.

[eliakon]

The point still is that NG now is able to make a profit selling not one line of power armor but thirty two (32) different lines of power armor.
That means that there is enough demand for Power Armor out there that the sales support, for just their brand alone, THIRTY TWO different lines of power armor. That means that they are selling enough suits that its profitable for them to keep up the R&D and churning them out... and that it is profitable enough to make specific suits for such tasks as fire-fighting, mining, and search and rescue.
That tells me that if a for profit company is making this stuff, that someone is buying it.
Enough someone's that they are making money (since otherwise they wouldn't make it)
And that suggests that there are an awful lot of power armor suits out there.
That's just power armor. That doesn't include any of the other war materials or any of the other vendors.
A decade ago? Yeah it was rare... but now? North America is awash in war surplus and military hardware.

or, as i already said, we just didn't have anywhere near the entire list of stuff that NG sold in the core book. just like we didn't have all the stuff that triax or wilks or titan or anyone else sold at the time. because the core book was not infinitely large, and indeed had to stay small enough that it could be reasonably priced and yet still turn a profit.

The core book though talked about how hard it was to buy stuff like power armor and military weapons...
...and now, a decade later there are franchised show rooms with overnight home delivery.

A decade ago the CS was said to be one of the few people that had Mega Damage technology...
...today there are over a dozen major corporations in North America churning out MDC gear

Yes, the first book was limited in what it had in it. But the world it set up has changed, radically as well.
We have gone from "it is dangerous to travel a few miles" to "commercial airlines, continent wide touring sports networks, and regular postal services"
We have gone from "there are only a handful of tiny kingdoms" to "scores of cities with populations over 50,000"
The world has changed. And I find it hard to believe that everything else has changed... except that magically that somehow this one bit of near-fluff hasn't.

To use a phrase I saw here before (sorry I don't recall the original source I would credit them)
Rifts in the RMB was post-apocalypse.
Rifts now days is post-post-apocalypse.

Part of the issue is that such tech is suppose to be rare for normal people but the books are written to cater to players. Shiny new gear is a way to help sale books.

Military tech is supposed to be rare for normal people in our world too...
...but if you go someplace like Somalia or Iraq you find that its not nearly as rare as it might be.
Like I said You have a decade of near constant major wars and military actions and your going to get a LOT of military surplus floating around.
It is still probably pretty uncommon... the whole "maybe one or two tops MD items in an entire town" is turning into the exception not the rule.

[Blue_Lion]

The point still is that NG now is able to make a profit selling not one line of power armor but thirty two (32) different lines of power armor.
That means that there is enough demand for Power Armor out there that the sales support, for just their brand alone, THIRTY TWO different lines of power armor. That means that they are selling enough suits that its profitable for them to keep up the R&D and churning them out... and that it is profitable enough to make specific suits for such tasks as fire-fighting, mining, and search and rescue.
That tells me that if a for profit company is making this stuff, that someone is buying it.
Enough someone's that they are making money (since otherwise they wouldn't make it)
And that suggests that there are an awful lot of power armor suits out there.
That's just power armor. That doesn't include any of the other war materials or any of the other vendors.
A decade ago? Yeah it was rare... but now? North America is awash in war surplus and military hardware.

or, as i already said, we just didn't have anywhere near the entire list of stuff that NG sold in the core book. just like we didn't have all the stuff that triax or wilks or titan or anyone else sold at the time. because the core book was not infinitely large, and indeed had to stay small enough that it could be reasonably priced and yet still turn a profit.

The core book though talked about how hard it was to buy stuff like power armor and military weapons...
...and now, a decade later there are franchised show rooms with overnight home delivery.

A decade ago the CS was said to be one of the few people that had Mega Damage technology...
...today there are over a dozen major corporations in North America churning out MDC gear

Yes, the first book was limited in what it had in it. But the world it set up has changed, radically as well.
We have gone from "it is dangerous to travel a few miles" to "commercial airlines, continent wide touring sports networks, and regular postal services"
We have gone from "there are only a handful of tiny kingdoms" to "scores of cities with populations over 50,000"
The world has changed. And I find it hard to believe that everything else has changed... except that magically that somehow this one bit of near-fluff hasn't.

To use a phrase I saw here before (sorry I don't recall the original source I would credit them)
Rifts in the RMB was post-apocalypse.
Rifts now days is post-post-apocalypse.

Part of the issue is that such tech is suppose to be rare for normal people but the books are written to cater to players. Shiny new gear is a way to help sale books.

Military tech is supposed to be rare for normal people in our world too...
...but if you go someplace like Somalia or Iraq you find that its not nearly as rare as it might be.
Like I said You have a decade of near constant major wars and military actions and your going to get a LOT of military surplus floating around.
It is still probably pretty uncommon... the whole "maybe one or two tops MD items in an entire town" is turning into the exception not the rule.

Military tech is not suppose to be rare, working modern vehicles such as tanks and jets are what is suppose to be rare.
I can go to almost any sporting good store and find things made using military tech.

[Killer Cyborg]

RAG 104
The vast majority of people are simple folk trying to carve out an existence in a harsh environment filled with marauders, monsters, and unearthly magic. Most (96%) have a "trade" but can not read or write, have no knowledge of their ancestry or anything about human history other than the myths and legends passed down throughout the Dark Ages. Most live off the land as independent homesteaders, farmers, trapper-woodsmen, hunters, mercenaries, adventurers , and nomads.

This answers my previous question about rural vs. urban populations--the vast majority of people are rural. So we don't really have to worry about the people in the cities.

This passage uses the word "most" twice, listing "(96%)" after the first usage. This could indicate that the second usage is meant to be roughly the same percentage, in which case something like 96% of this "vast majority" would be homesteaders, farmers, trapper-woodsmen, hunters, mercenaries, adventurers, and nomads.
Trapper-Woodsmen, Hunters, Mercenaries, and Adventurers would be almost guaranteed to have at least 1 WP or a HTH combat skill.
Farmers and homesteaders would be extremely likely to have at least one WP, in order to protect their crops and/or livestock from predators.

So of this (apparently) roughly 96% of the "vast majority," that means that the vast majority of them would be "combat trained" according to the standards of this conversation.

[Shark_Force]

So of this (apparently) roughly 96% of the "vast majority," that means that the vast majority of them would be "combat trained" according to the standards of this conversation.

emphasis on the part about being combat trained according to the standards of this [thread]. because any professional army would probably laugh hysterically at the idea that a homesteader or trapper is actually combat-trained.

(and quite possibly trained in a mostly useless weapon for combat as well... even if you go with the RMB on the presence of many creatures that are vulnerable to certain substances, it isn't exactly a good idea to start shooting when you might need to cycle through half a dozen clips before you find one that works, *if* you find one that works at all).

[Blue_Lion]

RAG 104
The vast majority of people are simple folk trying to carve out an existence in a harsh environment filled with marauders, monsters, and unearthly magic. Most (96%) have a "trade" but can not read or write, have no knowledge of their ancestry or anything about human history other than the myths and legends passed down throughout the Dark Ages. Most live off the land as independent homesteaders, farmers, trapper-woodsmen, hunters, mercenaries, adventurers , and nomads.

This answers my previous question about rural vs. urban populations--the vast majority of people are rural. So we don't really have to worry about the people in the cities.

This passage uses the word "most" twice, listing "(96%)" after the first usage. This could indicate that the second usage is meant to be roughly the same percentage, in which case something like 96% of this "vast majority" would be homesteaders, farmers, trapper-woodsmen, hunters, mercenaries, adventurers, and nomads.
Trapper-Woodsmen, Hunters, Mercenaries, and Adventurers would be almost guaranteed to have at least 1 WP or a HTH combat skill.
Farmers and homesteaders would be extremely likely to have at least one WP, in order to protect their crops and/or livestock from predators.

So of this (apparently) roughly 96% of the "vast majority," that means that the vast majority of them would be "combat trained" according to the standards of this conversation.

I would think the vast majority of people would also include the people in the CS super cities as the CS has a significant portion of the population of NA. The quote seams a perspective quote about most people you would encounter while adventuring. We have information on several large cities(and nations) where that statement seams to be untrue.

[Killer Cyborg]

RAG 104
The vast majority of people are simple folk trying to carve out an existence in a harsh environment filled with marauders, monsters, and unearthly magic. Most (96%) have a "trade" but can not read or write, have no knowledge of their ancestry or anything about human history other than the myths and legends passed down throughout the Dark Ages. Most live off the land as independent homesteaders, farmers, trapper-woodsmen, hunters, mercenaries, adventurers , and nomads.

This answers my previous question about rural vs. urban populations--the vast majority of people are rural. So we don't really have to worry about the people in the cities.

This passage uses the word "most" twice, listing "(96%)" after the first usage. This could indicate that the second usage is meant to be roughly the same percentage, in which case something like 96% of this "vast majority" would be homesteaders, farmers, trapper-woodsmen, hunters, mercenaries, adventurers, and nomads.
Trapper-Woodsmen, Hunters, Mercenaries, and Adventurers would be almost guaranteed to have at least 1 WP or a HTH combat skill.
Farmers and homesteaders would be extremely likely to have at least one WP, in order to protect their crops and/or livestock from predators.

So of this (apparently) roughly 96% of the "vast majority," that means that the vast majority of them would be "combat trained" according to the standards of this conversation.

I would think the vast majority of people would also include the people in the CS super cities as the CS has a significant portion of the population of NA. The quote seams a perspective quote about most people you would encounter while adventuring. We have information on several large cities(and nations) where that statement seams to be untrue.

I'm guessing that you didn't open the book I quoted, turn the the page I cited, and read the section titled "The Post Apocalyptic Age," which the quote is pulled from.
It's a subsection of the Apocalyptic Earth section, which discusses Rifts Earth, and how it got to be that way.

The Post Apocalyptic Age starts off with the sentence "The so-called Dark Age was proclaimed to be 'at an end' in North America with the rise of the Coalition States in 33 PA," and goes into a brief explanation of how the CS started the PA calendar and retroactively declared the Dark Age to be over 33 years earlier.
The next paragraph beings:
HOWEVER for many people living in Rifts North America (and elsewhere in the world) little has changed over the last 300 years. Some have never heard of the Post Apocalyptic Calendar, and have only heard tell of the Middle Kingdom calling itself "Chi-Town" or "The Coalition States."

The next paragraph is the one I quoted, the one that explains that in the context of Rifts earth, "the vast majority of people" are simple folk trying to survive.
"The vast majority of people" refers to the vast majority of people on Rifts Earth.
Of the vast majority of people on Rifts Earth, most live off the land as listed.

[Blue_Lion]

RAG 104
The vast majority of people are simple folk trying to carve out an existence in a harsh environment filled with marauders, monsters, and unearthly magic. Most (96%) have a "trade" but can not read or write, have no knowledge of their ancestry or anything about human history other than the myths and legends passed down throughout the Dark Ages. Most live off the land as independent homesteaders, farmers, trapper-woodsmen, hunters, mercenaries, adventurers , and nomads.

This answers my previous question about rural vs. urban populations--the vast majority of people are rural. So we don't really have to worry about the people in the cities.

This passage uses the word "most" twice, listing "(96%)" after the first usage. This could indicate that the second usage is meant to be roughly the same percentage, in which case something like 96% of this "vast majority" would be homesteaders, farmers, trapper-woodsmen, hunters, mercenaries, adventurers, and nomads.
Trapper-Woodsmen, Hunters, Mercenaries, and Adventurers would be almost guaranteed to have at least 1 WP or a HTH combat skill.
Farmers and homesteaders would be extremely likely to have at least one WP, in order to protect their crops and/or livestock from predators.

So of this (apparently) roughly 96% of the "vast majority," that means that the vast majority of them would be "combat trained" according to the standards of this conversation.

I would think the vast majority of people would also include the people in the CS super cities as the CS has a significant portion of the population of NA. The quote seams a perspective quote about most people you would encounter while adventuring. We have information on several large cities(and nations) where that statement seams to be untrue.

I'm guessing that you didn't open the book I quoted, turn the the page I cited, and read the section titled "The Post Apocalyptic Age," which the quote is pulled from.
It's a subsection of the Apocalyptic Earth section, which discusses Rifts Earth, and how it got to be that way.

The Post Apocalyptic Age starts off with the sentence "The so-called Dark Age was proclaimed to be 'at an end' in North America with the rise of the Coalition States in 33 PA," and goes into a brief explanation of how the CS started the PA calendar and retroactively declared the Dark Age to be over 33 years earlier.
The next paragraph beings:
HOWEVER for many people living in Rifts North America (and elsewhere in the world) little has changed over the last 300 years. Some have never heard of the Post Apocalyptic Calendar, and have only heard tell of the Middle Kingdom calling itself "Chi-Town" or "The Coalition States."

The next paragraph is the one I quoted, the one that explains that in the context of Rifts earth, "the vast majority of people" are simple folk trying to survive.
"The vast majority of people" refers to the vast majority of people on Rifts Earth.
Of the vast majority of people on Rifts Earth, most live off the land as listed.

Of course I did not open a book I do not have.

[Killer Cyborg]

[post deleted due to snark]

[dreicunan]

We don't live in a world were a cat could be a dragon; WWII was a pleasant afternoon fist fight compared to the coming of the rifts, and there are plenty of reminders around of why you need to know how to use the family L-20. The CS only protects the areas under its protection. In a world where professional gamblers start with HtH: Expert and Barmaids get HtH: Basic, I have a tough time believing that those who live outside the CS megacities don't have at least a WP. That is not incongruent with a world in which MD is rare (so rare that the CS has how many spare SAMAS just sitting around? The writers do an atrocious job of supporting this idea). Also keep in mind populations like the NGR where you have large portions of society that did military service.

well, the people on rifts earth typically don't live in places where a bomb could land on their head and there isn't much they can do to stop it. the coming of the rifts sucked, sure. but the main reason WW II didn't do to europe what the coming of the rifts did to the world is that there were some places after WW II that were relatively unscathed that helped the world recover (well, also WW II lasted a lot less time).

ultimately, it doesn't much matter whether the surprise death came from a dragon you thought was a cat (though why people keep bringing that up is beyond me - why the hell would a dragon care enough to disguise itself as a cat before killing a regular person? it's a dragon. if it wants you dead, it can just fly up *as a dragon* and seriously, what are you going to do to stop it?). death could come just as suddenly for people living in WW II war zones (and in modern war zones for that matter).

and yet, most people are not combat trained.

and yes, gamblers and barmaids have hand to hand skills... or at least, the ones that are adventurers and noteworthy NPCs do. those are the classes they show us. not random people.

Well, another contributing factor to WWII not being as bad as the coming of the rifts would be the lack of dimensional rifts importing demons, dragons, devils, and d-bees to run amok.

Perhaps the dragon hiding as a cat is overdone. Of course, that cat could also be any number of other creatures who would gleefully rip you apart. Or it might have been a creature that disguised itself as a pony. There are plenty or other threats that would inspire people to know how to handle a weapon. Maybe it was just rampaging herd of dinosaurs. Maybe it was a horde of monsters RIDING the dinosaurs who later feasted on the flesh of the members of your family that didn't manage to get away. There are plenty of human threats as well.

Seriously, not even Somalia is as threatening an environment as Rifts Earth in 109 PA. I don't think that any of us can truly wrap our heads around what living there would be like.

[Shark_Force]

Well, another contributing factor to WWII not being as bad as the coming of the rifts would be the lack of dimensional rifts importing demons, dragons, devils, and d-bees to run amok.

Perhaps the dragon hiding as a cat is overdone. Of course, that cat could also be any number of other creatures who would gleefully rip you apart. Or it might have been a creature that disguised itself as a pony. There are plenty or other threats that would inspire people to know how to handle a weapon. Maybe it was just rampaging herd of dinosaurs. Maybe it was a horde of monsters RIDING the dinosaurs who later feasted on the flesh of the members of your family that didn't manage to get away. There are plenty of human threats as well.

Seriously, not even Somalia is as threatening an environment as Rifts Earth in 109 PA. I don't think that any of us can truly wrap our heads around what living there would be like.

honestly, i doubt devils, d-bees, dragons, and demons running amok could have done more damage to many of the places world war 2 was fought. a city doesn't get much worse than reduced to rubble and ash, whether it came from a demon or bombs or artillery. people killed by demons and devils probably die in more unpleasant ways (mostly... a lot of people died in extremely awful ways in world war 2 as well). we don't need demons to kill massive numbers of humans or destroy civilizations. turns out humans are quite capable of doing that on their own, if you give them the tools.

but this all presupposes that somehow, being able to use a gun is going to prevent all these bad things from happening. see, if a herd of dinosaurs being ridden by monsters comes riding through... good luck trying to fix that problem with a half-charged laser rifle and a decent idea of how to use it. that creature that can disguise itself as a pony? guess what creature isn't going to have a hard time getting into melee range of you while you're not wearing armour (or carrying your laser rifle) if you can't detect it?

hiding, on the other hand, well, it isn't going to be 100% successful, but at least it has a *chance* of succeeding most of the time. there are a lot more things on rifts earth that can't be fought with a decent chance of winning for someone without major resources and friends than there are things that are nigh impossible to hide from. relatively few demons have inescapable senses, but there are plenty of supernatural creatures that may as well be impossible to kill for a small group whether they have an energy rifle or not.

[HWalsh]

Yeah, step one of surviving an attack like that is to run away and let the Glitterboy/Cyber-Knight/Borg/Juicer/Crazy your settlement employs take care of it.

The day that the vast majority of the people on Rifts Earth learn to fight is the day the CS is destroyed by millions on top of millions of civilians armed by the enemies of the CS.