Centaur Body Fixers

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Axelmania
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

Nothing about a vertical L5 vertebra handicaps the centaur. They are still capable of doing everything needed to survive without aid from other species.

How could art possibly show an inability to move?

Ancient art doesn't matter.

One instance of a forward-shifted L5 from WB30 is not in any way expressing the existance of some mechanism of shifting the L5 back and forth 1-2 feet between the standard back/top position and the single instance of front/lower.

Nothing in human or horse anatomy allows that and centaur anatomy in Palladium is described in those terms.

The Love centaur is an abberation whose history we do not know. She is in conflict with the text describing a human torso atop horse shoulders since the torso is not atop the shoulders.

Art accompanying centaurs need not reflect their natural form. In conversion book we were only shown Borgs. WB30 may well show a bioborg.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:Nothing about a vertical L5 vertebra handicaps the centaur. They are still capable of doing everything needed to survive without aid from other species.

How could art possibly show an inability to move?

If you don't have anything though that shows an inability to move... then you are making an unsupported statement.
You need some sort of support or evidence or your just speculating.
It would be like making the claim that since horses have dichromic vision that all centaurs are therefor dichromic and can not see red.
Its not supported by any text and the claim that there is an undocumented, undescribed limitation to a race... needs support to be anything more than just a "I want to put this handicap on this race in my game so, at my table I do X".

Axelmania wrote:Ancient art doesn't matter.

True enough

Axelmania wrote:One instance of a forward-shifted L5 from WB30 is not in any way expressing the existance of some mechanism of shifting the L5 back and forth 1-2 feet between the standard back/top position and the single instance of front/lower.

Nothing in human or horse anatomy allows that and centaur anatomy in Palladium is described in those terms.

Since it is manifestly impossible for the anatomy to be simply that of "humans and horses linked" the claim is absurd on its face.
They may look like a human on a horse yes. But the claim that they really are a human on a horse on the inside in all ways, is manifestly absurd (if nothing else the organs would not line up, never mind the duplication of most organs, or that the human excretory system would be feeding into the horses stomach)
If the claim is provably false, then its not a relevant issue.
And the claim that centaurs are identical to humans and horses on the inside is provably false.


Axelmania wrote:The Love centaur is an abberation whose history we do not know. She is in conflict with the text describing a human torso atop horse shoulders since the torso is not atop the shoulders.

She is also art.
Thus if you want to make a claim that art is relevant then she counts.
If you want to make the claim that no art at all is relevant then she doesn't count.
But you can't have it both ways and claim that art, other than her, counts.


Axelmania wrote:Art accompanying centaurs need not reflect their natural form. In conversion book we were only shown Borgs. WB30 may well show a bioborg.

Again, that is unfounded speculation. Wild conjecture of reasons why something might not work are not proof.
The argument that there is, some sort of possible explanation why art that shows why your stance may be wrong... doesn't really show what it seems to show but really shows something else is not an argument. It is simply a refutation by fiat (aka "I do not accept this evidence therefore it must be wrong").
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

Again I ask: how could artwork prove inability to move the L5?

I could equally ask for you to show me artwork proving the L5 can move and it isn't just placed differently on different centaur.

Show me.the same centaur with a high-back L5 in one image having a low-front L5 for example.

Without proof, the idea of a fixed L5 with a diverse range of origin points among centaur families is much more plausible.

Species often have variations. Different kinds of acromion for example https://www.t-nation.com/training/shoulder-savers-1

The differences we see between dragons are even more pronounced. There being some "torso in front of shoulders instead of on top of" centaur families is acceptable. Much simpler than inventing out of nothing a gliding L5 vertebras and giving them joint mobility undreamt of in either species.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:Again I ask: how could artwork prove inability to move the L5?

That is your problem not mine.
You are the one making the affirmative claim here, so you are the one that has to support it. Not me I don't have to provide your evidence for you, that's your job.

Axelmania wrote:I could equally ask for you to show me artwork proving the L5 can move and it isn't just placed differently on different centaur.

I don't have to. I am making the claim that the status quo is accurate and that unless a race is described as having a specific limitation, then that limitation doesn't exist. That doesn't require evidence that the status quo is accurate. The Status Quo, by definition, is already considered to be accurate unless proven otherwise.

Axelmania wrote:Show me.the same centaur with a high-back L5 in one image having a low-front L5 for example.

Again, that is not my burden of proof.
Switching the burden of proof to me to show that the status quo is not wrong isn't viable sorry.
I don't have to prove that your argument isn't true. I don't even have to prove that centaurs even have an L5 at all. All I have to prove is that the book says that
1) Centaurs exist
2) That the book does not say that they have a limited range of motion
Having done so I don't have to "prove" how their range of motion works, or what it is... that is not in the books, and is not canon.
But if you want to claim that they do have a limited range of motion, then you are changing what is in the books by introducing a new detail. And that does need proof/support.

Axelmania wrote:Without proof, the idea of a fixed L5 with a diverse range of origin points among centaur families is much more plausible.

Again, that is not how it works.
In logic the affirmative statement needs proof, not the status quo.
And claiming that something is 'plausible' is not proof. Especially since the claim is circular. It is only plausible if we accept the premise that centaurs have a limited range of motion, and the premise that the different centaurs are actually these unstated different kinds of centaur (another change from the book that needs support!), and the premise that these different centaurs from premise 2 have different ways of dealing with the limited range of motion from premise 1. All of which relies on "well if we accept these three unsupported claims as true, then my explanation is the most plausible way to make them work"... but if we do not accept those claims then it is not more plausible... because what it is trying to explain away does not exist in the first place!

Your the one making a change to the status quo, so your the one that needs proof. The absence of evidence to disprove you is not proof of the truth of your position.

Axelmania wrote:Species often have variations. Different kinds of acromion for example https://www.t-nation.com/training/shoulder-savers-1

The differences we see between dragons are even more pronounced. There being some "torso in front of shoulders instead of on top of" centaur families is acceptable. Much simpler than inventing out of nothing a gliding L5 vertebras and giving them joint mobility undreamt of in either species.

Again, not relevant.
Dragons are not the same race, Centaurs are.
A Thunder Lizard and a Basilisk are not both the same race. They are both dragons, but their variations are those of totally different races.
It would be like claiming that because there are different kinds of bird, like say... a humming bird, a penguin, and an Emu that we should assume that different humans have different biology.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

The are at least two races of centaur, the Ixion have different attribute dice and can exist separate from nature.

All realistic species have mobility limitations. Do I need to provide proof to support my speculation that elves can't flatten their skulls to one inch to shimmy under a door?

Superhuman mobility is the type of thing which is spelled out when species have it. If it isnt then we can assume they follow realistic mechanics.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:The are at least two races of centaur, the Ixion have different attribute dice and can exist separate from nature.

They are also not presented as anything other than 'Ixion' or "cyber-horsemen", so trying to use them as proof that the race called simply "Centaurs" is actually made up of multiple races does nothing.

Axelmania wrote:All realistic species have mobility limitations. Do I need to provide proof to support my speculation that elves can't flatten their skulls to one inch to shimmy under a door?

That is adding an ability :lol: so yah you would need to support its existence
But its not the sort of thing at discussion here and you know it.
So, while its an amusing little visual it has less than no relevance to the actual topic at hand.

Axelmania wrote:Superhuman mobility is the type of thing which is spelled out when species have it. If it isnt then we can assume they follow realistic mechanics.

To bad "reach the ground" is not "superhuman mobility"
Sure, shimmy under a door is "Superhuman mobility" but "reach down and pick something up off the floor" isn't and frankly... your going to need some support if your going to try and claim that it is.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

Whether reaching the ground is superhuman or not would depend on the physiology. Centaurs have a strange one.

Nxla has many arms at a height that doesn't allow them to touch the ground, for example.

Also.I reiterate... I think a centaur can touch the ground with human hands by bowing with the front legs and flexing the human spine. Just barely. So I would appreciate this not being brought up again as something I am allegedly arguing.

Another way to do this would be a roll: http://www.thinklikeahorse.org/images/horseroll.jpg which only takes a single melee action.

Centaur don't have long arms like Melechs and Demon Claws so a straight spine would prevent reaching down. They have 4D6 PP though so they should be able to bend or roll with more agility than a human. This makes grabbing stuff in the ground feasible without a horizantally translocating L5 vertebra.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:Whether reaching the ground is superhuman or not would depend on the physiology. Centaurs have a strange one.

Nxla has many arms at a height that doesn't allow them to touch the ground, for example.

Also.I reiterate... I think a centaur can touch the ground with human hands by bowing with the front legs and flexing the human spine. Just barely. So I would appreciate this not being brought up again as something I am allegedly arguing.

Another way to do this would be a roll: http://www.thinklikeahorse.org/images/horseroll.jpg which only takes a single melee action.

Centaur don't have long arms like Melechs and Demon Claws so a straight spine would prevent reaching down. They have 4D6 PP though so they should be able to bend or roll with more agility than a human. This makes grabbing stuff in the ground feasible without a horizantally translocating L5 vertebra.

The rolling would have high risk break the human spine if it was fixed in the upright position that has already been addressed earlier when I said it would pose health risks.

OH so they have more mobilty by stats than humans.

So instead of using a joint like a horse has to transition from the some what upright spine to the horizontal spine, thus solving issues of birth. Do a type of movement not common in horses and slouch there human spine because you think they have flexibility that way. (horses raise the front part first then raise the back, unlike cows that do the reverse.)

So let me ask you this does any art show a inability to move forward or did you just make that whole thing up based off giving the waist the same mobility as a human instead of the horse joint that should be there?


***As has been pointed out more than once you need to prove the limited mobility you claim they should have. (all we have so far is you assuming they have a skeletal structure that is never stated or sown. Does the book even say the centaur has a L5? You made the claim that art implies limited mobility at the waist prove it.)
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Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

Why give it the mobility of the nonexistent horse neck when we are told the horse ends at shoulder ?

How horses instinctively get up doesn't bother me..real ones can be trained to bow http://www.lovehorsebackriding.com/imag ... horse3.jpg so an intelligent species like the centaur could do it easily. http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc4 ... bow2-1.png

Reaching the ground seems more important to do easily for farmers. Centaur are nomadic so they would probably grab fruit off trees. Also keep in mind fairies give in requested help and love centaurs so lots of free pies from the pixies. Wading in a stream and grabbing fish seems workable too.

You can see when a spine-atop-shoulders centaur bows https://thumb10.shutterstock.com/displa ... 273587.jpg that there is still a ways to go, but that by bending at the human lumbar (not the nonexistent equine cervical) to lower the human shoulders further, it should be enough to grasp stuff on the ground.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:The art doesn't actually show her arms being able to reach the ground.

Why can't some centaur parts be the same as human? The only place we have to deviate is near the unification line.

The art doesn't show greater mobility of the human spine. What we see here is an instance of a centaur whose human portion originates on a different aspect of the horse than we have seen in preceding Palladium artwork.

This might mean that this is a variation in the species, no need to assume the previous centaurs can adopt this posture or that this centaur can adopt the previous postures.

You are so right you never made a claim thay could not reach the ground.
Oh wait you just said the art doesn't show the arms being able to reach the ground.(seams like you did start off with they can not reach the ground stance.

Your whole focus has been on the human spine, with no regard to how the horse joints join the neck/human and how the spine would shift back 90 degrees. You are placing limited mobility on them because you think you know how the insides work not because the books says they can't.

Your solution to the deal with the complications of birthing a baby with a 90 degree spine was they may have a flexible birth canal to deal with it. (The logic on how it being flexibility of the canal deals with the issue of force applied at 90 degrees to a spine is lost on me.) So you want a highly flexible birth canal that is not seen on either species but do not want the waist/neck seam to have flexibility found in one of the two species(the one half the joint would be in and the joint that is better equiped to make the sharp turn of the spine.)

You have yet to provide any evidence of a limitation and just make adsorb claims(despite repeated request for it (you even make lame excuses to ignore evidence and changing stance on how to deal with issues). Please provide evidence as requested as the burden of evidence is to prove your claim.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:Why give it the mobility of the nonexistent horse neck when we are told the horse ends at shoulder ?

How horses instinctively get up doesn't bother me..real ones can be trained to bow http://www.lovehorsebackriding.com/imag ... horse3.jpg so an intelligent species like the centaur could do it easily. http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc4 ... bow2-1.png

Reaching the ground seems more important to do easily for farmers. Centaur are nomadic so they would probably grab fruit off trees. Also keep in mind fairies give in requested help and love centaurs so lots of free pies from the pixies. Wading in a stream and grabbing fish seems workable too.

You can see when a spine-atop-shoulders centaur bows https://thumb10.shutterstock.com/displa ... 273587.jpg that there is still a ways to go, but that by bending at the human lumbar (not the nonexistent equine cervical) to lower the human shoulders further, it should be enough to grasp stuff on the ground.

A. the joint in question for the neck is below the shoulders.
B. that move is fairly hard for a horse to do and would not put the hands on the ground even with a stoop.
C. garbing food where ever it is is important for nomadic races as it is not always going to be on threes. Many edible plants are found close to ground level, there is also the issue of getting resources and recovering things that get dropped. Not to mention when traveling through woods the ability to duck under tree branches can becomes much more important especially when you head is over 7 feet in the air.
D. you demand that art can only come from PB you are now ignoring that requirement.(That means the art showing greater movement in clasic are it back on the table.)
E. No one made a claim that the resting part for the human was not above the hoarse solders. (the joint that handles the movement for a horse neck is found below the shoulder.)If you look at the art the human waist is where the horse neck should be. PG 44 d-bees of north America you can see the shoulder behind the human waist the human portion is coming out to where the horse neck should be.(nearly every picture the human part is replacing the horse neck https://www.bing.com/images/search?)q=centaur+pictures&qpvt=centaur+pictures&qpvt=centaur+pictures&qpvt=centaur+pictures&FORM=IGRE
F. Explain child birth if the centaur was locked in a upright position.

So again do you have any evidence of lack of mobility?
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

An higher PP race wouldnbe less prone to dropping things. We would need to kno w more about plant life in centaur habitats such as PF t know how important it would be to pick shrubs at hoof level.

Using external art to illustrate a.concept (a kneeling centaur) does not put non Palladium art on the table for.making arguments about where the human spine starts.

You have a valid point about horse.necks beginning below.horse shoulders, but since we are told "human torso rising out of the animal shoulders" in the text, it doesn't appear to rise out of the neck...

Although I guess if we viewed horse neck as.existing between horse shoulders then that could work. "Out" could mean "forward of" as well as "above" too.

We do not know how large centaurs are when they are born so this isn't a consideration. The oddest shapes can be made up for by a smaller baby.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Got it its ok for you to use outside art but no one else.(Do you know what a double standard is. If you use external art at all then all enxternal art is on the table.)


Wait we do not know something it is not a consideration? Well we do not now the internal joints at the horse neck/human waist and spine so it is not a consideration for limiting mobility. (congrats your own logic just canceled out your whole case. Because you ruled out what we do not know as a consideration then everything we do not know is not a consideration.) After all your whole case is based on you thinking you know something that is unknown, and claiming it as a fact.

(So your solution is a tiny baby, making the stress on the 90 joint on a smaller joint.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

The difference is in how we are using the art. You were using ancient art to argue centaurs have front-spine. I was only using some to show how a top spine centaur (predominant palladium depiction) would have arms closer to ground while kneeling. I hesitated rightly at doing so expecting this misdirect in response.

We do know centaur have been described as having man body and horse body. That does mean we can reliably expect similar skeletal structure. Organs realistically would need to be shunted around to be optimal, but then some species are just so inherently better for whatever reason they can make up for non optimal proportions by inherent betterness.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Axelmania wrote:The difference is in how we are using the art. You were using ancient art to argue centaurs have front-spine. I was only using some to show how a top spine centaur (predominant palladium depiction) would have arms closer to ground while kneeling. I hesitated rightly at doing so expecting this misdirect in response.

We do know centaur have been described as having man body and horse body. That does mean we can reliably expect similar skeletal structure. Organs realistically would need to be shunted around to be optimal, but then some species are just so inherently better for whatever reason they can make up for non optimal proportions by inherent betterness.

No I made no claim about the spine based off that art. (Unlike you) My claim was art shows a implies a greater flexibility at the waist than humans. Get my claim right it was not about what was on the inside but what the art showed directly.

Basically I was using art to show a centaur doing something not found in palladium art, you then said it could not be used as a source. Then you use art to show a centaur not doing something not found in palladium art.

Conclusion you are creating a double standard, where you can use out side art to prove your point but the other side can not reference outside art. So either your use of art should be ignored or all art is valid.

We honestly have no clue on the centaur skeletal structure beyond it gives a general shape. It would require some shifting of joints at the very least to attach seemly two separate parts. So it would take a entire different type of joint at the base of the human body and horse neck but you make a claim about a unknown joints limits, that by your own claims make them a disabled race. But have provided no support other than you think you know how a unknown joint works.(Unless you have PB art shown a true centaurs skeletal structure the how structure is unknown.)
But this is really just a case of you using smoke and mirrors as you still have yet to provide any support of your claim of limited mobility. (By your own logic about what is known is not a consideration your claim that relies on a unknown the skeletal structure was not a consideration.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

In my case I sboed something we already have seen Palladium Centaurs do, bend at the knee. The only difference is this depicted it while they were standing in all 4s instead of rearing on the hind legs.

One dilemma we face in older art is a bigger human:horse ratio. It is like a human on the body of a micropony. It is easier to imagine that being more able to reach the ground since the torso has less height and the arms and human vertagrae reach further.

Palladium centaur art seems to show horse-sized big equine portions though.

The books do mention joints: the horse shoulders. We know at least that exists.

All mobility is limited. My assumption of mobility is normal. If you want to propose the human spine has more mobility than humans do, the burden is to prove hypermobility.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:In my case I sboed something we already have seen Palladium Centaurs do, bend at the knee. The only difference is this depicted it while they were standing in all 4s instead of rearing on the hind legs.

That is a rather significant difference.

Axelmania wrote:One dilemma we face in older art is a bigger human:horse ratio. It is like a human on the body of a micropony. It is easier to imagine that being more able to reach the ground since the torso has less height and the arms and human vertagrae reach further.

Palladium centaur art seems to show horse-sized big equine portions though.

The books do mention joints: the horse shoulders. We know at least that exists.

That is all that we can infer from the description yes. And even then it does not follow that it is literally an identical joint to a horses shoulder as it could also refer to the location.

Axelmania wrote:All mobility is limited. My assumption of mobility is normal. If you want to propose the human spine has more mobility than humans do, the burden is to prove hypermobility.

Again, no circular arguments are not proof
This is not "hypermobility" your making a false claim there if you claim that this is the default. That is only true in your premise.
Just like you are making a false claim that your version of mobility is "normal" again this is your premise.
A conclusion drawn by taking your two premises and drawing from them... is not proof of how the system works. It is simply proof that your own theory supports itself if it is allowed to have all its premises be true.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Your art did more than just depict something that PB art did. It showed them making an entire different type of action. If your art is valid then all outside art is valid. You do not get to create your own double standard. Either all outside art counts or no outside art counts. You need to pick one.

Sorry but you can say your assumption is what is normal. That is flawed logic, that because you think something so it is normal. It seams more people have spoken against it than for it. What we have is you claiming that a limitation on a race with a unknown internal structure that would make the race disabled is normal, because you think it is.

Shoulder is a body location, shoulder joint is a joint. A shoulder includes more than just a joint. What you saying applied to Xit saying that a Xit has a shoulder so it has the same internal joint as a X. Having a shoulder does not imply having a specific joint.(Even if one joint is stated you nothing beyond that joint.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

To clarify: I wasn't using the art to argue that centaurs had the strength in their forelimbs to bear their weight while kneeling, just that for those that did, it illustrates the common-sense idea that this would bring the shoulders of the horse body (and the human body atop the shoulders) closer to the ground.

Showing mobility matching actions we know real horses can do (real horses can be trained to kneel) isn't the same as illustrating duo-species actions like horse-neck/human-lumber mergers.

Xiticix are not described in terms of 'human body' or 'horse body'. False example. The whole reason I am using horse and human mobility as a basis for assessing centaur mobility is because of how books describe centaurs.

Finally grabbed Monsters and Animals Second Edition to take a look. Page 35 has a rather odd picture... I can't make out an artist signature but it resembles what I recall Kevin Siembieda's drawings looked like in the Palladium RPG, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was carried forward from the 1st edition of Monsters and Animals. I don't have a copy to check, does anyone know?

It's odd because of the pointy ears. I guess maybe some get that from the horse, because in Rifts I hadn't recalled seeing it. That said...
    CB112 by Gustovich: hair covering
    Canada104 by Perez: hair covering
    Canada106 by Perez: slightly pointed
    DBoNA44 by Love: hair covering

MA2nd35 opens with "race of half-man, half-horse" then later "the half-man and half-horse are often magnificent hunters" which strengthens the basis for using human+horse anatomy to determine joint mobility.

This illustration also gives a nice view of the human abdomen, clearly a spine-atop-shoulders, reinforcing that the Love illustration is a solitary deviation.

That said... I found something here to support your neck proposal! Under Physical appearance:
    a human torso coming out of the neck

This is different from the descriptions from CB114/Canada102 both of which say "torso rising out of the shoulders" while WB30p45 doesn't appear to have a 'physical appearance' entry in its stats at all, unless I'm missing it somewhere.

Is it possible for a torso to rise out of the neck and shoulders simultaneously?

What this could also mean, is what I proposed earlier: there are varieties of centaur. You have the "torso coming out of the neck" centaurs described in MA2, and the "torso rising out of the shoulders" centaurs described in Conversion/Canada, while the entry in D-Bees of North America which appears to lack the neck/torso specifity, could be a general overview for all variants.

Also supporting the idea that there are species variants within centaur are the different stats we see in their different publications. The speed attribute for Centaurs in Monsters in Animals is 4D6x2 and they get 25 SDC while in Rifts it is 6D6x2 Spd and 50 SDC. The ones in Monsters an animals get 1/2 HP/SDC after a week of captivity and DIE on the 2nd week, whereas in Rifts it merely states "a few weeks in chains may kill them or drive them to make desperate attempts to escape".

I suppose you could take that as a change due to some semi-mystical (though not full-out 'creature of magic') nature of the animal, since they are 'somehow linked to nature' and might be stronger on Rifts Earth.

This might also explain the shadow boost of PS/PP from 4D6 > 3D6+6 and PE from 5D6 > 3D6+12 we see from Conversions>Canada.

I find it an easy solution though, now that I located the text evidence in MA, to accept that a portion of the horse neck remains and gives some extra mobility.

I don't know if it'd be the full neck... horse necks are pretty big and that doesn't seem to be visible in the art, but even a couple extra vertebrae would probably solve the problem of being able to pull carrots out of the ground or whatever it was they needed to do this for.

I still think they would easily be able to kneel though. Particularly with the boost they got to minimum/average strength/prowess/endurance in Canada which WB30 has retained.

MA204 gives stats for horses which can be valuable for the purpose of comparison. I can't see strength listed but kicking damage might give some idea. Centaurs are 2D6 front / 4D6 rear. 205's war horse and 206's work horse are better, but they're giants bred to carry metal-clad riders, weighing 1700-2100 while centaurs weigh merely 800-1100 pounds.

Jumper horses weigh 1100-1400 and do 2d6 front / 4d6 rear. Same with the race horses and riding horses on page 206. So... a centaur can do just as much damage with the front legs as a heavier horse... kneeling not sounding like a problem...

Mules are 800-1200, very close to the centaur range, and do 2d4+2 / 3d6+6 mules clearly rock. Ponies have the same range and do only 1d6+2/2d6+4. Page 207's Ass is only 1D6/2D6+2 at 800-1200.

207's Zebra is the most telling. They range 1000-1400 pounds and front/back kick at merely 1d6/2d6, HALF the strength of a centaur while weighing much more than them. Can a zebra kneel? Yup! (even as babies or adults IRL)

Also think of the leg power from the jumps. DB30 says centaurs can jump 10 feet high and 15 feet across, or 15 feet high and 30 feet across with a running start. This is INSANE when you look at the stats for horses in Monsters and Animals. The "jumper horse" can only jump 5-6 feet high and 10 feet long.

If centaur are that much better jumpers than horses, they should find merely bowing/kneeling to be much easier, and should be more able to incorporate that into their day to day movements than a horse would.

Also I'm not really seeing the problem with having equine torsos casually sitting/kneeling/lying flat on the ground for whatever activity you want them to use human hands to grab at the earth with.

These guys travel in groups, so some could remain standing to keep an eye out on whoever is planting cabbages or whatever (a good idea even if you could do this while keeping the horse body standing upright) and these guys are all archers and spear-throwers, so they could react in plenty of time against predators.

Statistically there doesn't appear to be anything stopping you from rolling a parry/dodge/kick while lying on the ground either. This isn't like GURPS where you have a -2 penalty to defenses/attacks from a laying posture, I'm not aware of any problems like that in Palladium, so their ability to fight isn't really compromised at all.

At best, what, an extra melee attack to be able to start running away? How often do centaurs even need to do that?

I also noticed a difference in weight... in Monsters and Animals 2nd Edition, centaurs only weigh 550-650 pounds. That's a loss of 250-450 in the range we see in Rifts. I wonder if that's because initially their horse bodies were intended to be smaller?

Maybe added weight/height/strength/prowess/endurance comes because traveling to Rifts Earth causes the horse body to swell to larger proportions due to their nature-link?

Page 97 of Northern Hinterlands has an April 2001 illustration from Wilson, left column also uses "half-man, half-horse". Page 99 uses the "torso coming out of the neck" description from Monsters and Animals we haven't seen in Rifts. While I couldn't find leaping distances in M+A, this gives diminished ones from what we see in Rifts: 5 high and 9 across, with no mentioned increase from a running start, though they do gain some feet as they level up, +7 by level 14, giving a final of 12 high and 16 across.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

So to clarify your point of that post, you start of with a lame justification of your double standard of art.

That double standard is still rejected as it is all or none on outside art, you can not use a double standard based of your lame justification.

You then list a bunch of random stuff from books that does nothing to prove any point. It seams mostly a waist of space rant that does not justify and I see no evidence supporting your claim of limited mobility at the horse neck/human waist seam.

So again do you have any evidence supporting limited mobility at the horse neck/human waist seam?
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

This stuff isn't random, I'm not just trying to win an argument here, but to explore what centaurs are. I don't waist space on threads 'bout centaur waists.

I'm wondering how closely you read what I brought up, considering I pointed out 2 sourcebooks for Palladium Fantasy which discuss centaur torsos rising out of horse necks instead of horse shoulders.

I was actually agreeing with you that this is now possible in my view, after having sought info outside of the Rifts books, that at least some centaurs may have more mobility than a human spine welded to horse shoulders.

The question is just: is this all centaurs, or are these separate centaur variants? Different stats (attributes, SDC, jumping distance, survival duration in captivity) and descriptions (PF centaurs having torsos rising out of necks, Rifts centaurs having torsos rising out of shoulders) raise the question of variants.

For the centaurs (whether this is all or some) who do have a horse neck as part of their anatomy, they would have the added mobility provided for that neck.

For the centaurs (whether this is some or none) who do not have a horse neck as part of their anatomy, they would not have that added mobility and would not be able to reach as far as the centaurs who do have horse necks.

Just how much of a neck is what I wonder about. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M9ErwYVpjvM/V ... n_head.png shows 7 vertebrae.

C7 and C6 appear to be below shoulder level, so considering these to be "lower body" and present in all centaur (even those with torsos rising out of the shoulders) seems reasonable. This would allow all centaur to enjoy some added mobility.

C5 appears to be the vertebrae which traverses shoulder level, and it could be around here where we begin to question whether or not this would be present in the centaur.

It's hard to imagine the entire horse neck all the way to the Atlas (C1) being present in the centaurs. If you tacked the entire human spine on top of that, it would be very visibly long, and none of the artwork shows that.

C3-C6 being the uppermost vertebrae seems like a reasonable range though, accounting for differences we see in where the human torso begins to grow on various centaur.

I think we've moved beyond the issue of my having shown a sketch of a kneeling centaur. I was only doing that to show what kneeling could look like. I made a stats-based argument that centaurs being able to kneel is a very reasonable assumption considering their huge leaping distances, as well as strength/prowess and kicking damage to bodyweight ratio when compared with horses and zebras, who we know can kneel.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Got it you can not win the debate so you just going off on a random tangent to try and circle around and prove your claim is true when people get tired of reading your waste of space post.

We honestly do not know how much is changed internally from the apparent base races to make the aparrant hybrid. Your stance requires a claim of knowledge of what we have no access to for it to be true.
Evample-
Does the official art chosen to represent a centaur represent and average centaur.
Your stance has three assumptions.
1-A centaur has to have skeletal structure X.
2-skeletal structure X gives mobility range of Y.
3-The art is outside the range of Y, so it should be ignored as a deviation.

My stance has two assumptions.
1- Art chosen to represent a race represents the base race.
2- If official art shows motile positions of the human body it can transition between the positions.

Your stance requires that it be wrong for the official art to represent a centaur represent the average centaur.
My stance just requires accepting it works.

(I did take a look at the mobility provided by the bone structure of the horse neck and the location it is the bottom joint and posibally the second to bottom of the neck that appears to allow the horse neck to pivot forward. If the same joint system was used in a centaur to transition from the upright human like spine to the horse lower body I would expect the same possible range of motion as available to the hose neck, meaning it is theoretically possible for the centaur to have a joint that allows for greater mobility at the waist/horse neck seam. http://www.sustainabledressage.net/roll ... al_lig.jpg it does appear the should blades where removed in the art possibly for visibility other image http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QNfrFl9ynlo/T ... +final.jpg)
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Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

"Waste of space" is needlessly inflammatory, we can be more cordial here.

This isn't a random tangent: I'm explaining why it is I changed my mind to a more moderate stance after reading two PF books which have alternate descriptions of centaurs than Canada and the Conversion Book. It puts the DB30 writeup in a broader context.

DB30 was only a deviation from normal mobility when I saw no basis for assuming horse cervical vertabrae to be included. I have done a 180 on that now after having read up on the PF printings, and am now open to some>all horse neck bones being incorporated into centaurs.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Sounds like you are saying the debate is over. Can we agree on that?
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......

I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
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Re: Centaur Body Fixers

Unread post by Axelmania »

The central point of disagreement is, I was trying to shift it to... should we only consider the smaller weaker PF centaurs to have "out of neck" torsos, while only the larger stronger Rifts centaurs have the "out of shoulders" torsos?

Or should these different statements from the different games be meshed together to form the intrepretation that centaurs have torsos coming out of the shoulders AND neck (attaching to both is feasible, like the trapezius and levator scapulae muscles).

Plus the issue of... whether some/all extend out of the neck, just how many horse vertebrae are in the centaur, and how much extra mobility does it afford them?

Your last paragraph with the pictures implies it may not matter though, if the lowermost cervical horse vertebrae are those which create the most motion, possible additions of higher up horse vertebrae may not matter.

What throws me off about http://www.sustainabledressage.net/roll ... al_lig.jpg though is we have seen Palladium centaurs be able to hold their human torso fully upright and I'm not seeing an upright angle for the horse neck though... like http://www.sustainabledressage.net/roll ... etched.jpg I can't imagine how to juxtapose a human torso on that and still have it on top of the horse torso, even at the forefront.

I know some of this is illusion: https://svpow.files.wordpress.com/2009/ ... eck-3.jpeg but it is still not vertical-seeming enough to allow what we've seen in some of the art for the centaur to be so upright.
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