Are all men of magic/magic users considered a mage?

[Blue_Lion]

This came to me when I was looking at the men of magic in RUE, the traditional casters that can learn any spell are all called mages while the mystic did not appear to be.

So that got me thinking are all magic users/men of magic a mage?

Some like the T-man do not cast spells at all, but instead have magical abilities.
Others are not trained but born like the elemental fusionist and some magic using rccs.

So I am wondering would you consider all men of magic a mage?

[eliakon]

I would consider terms like "mage" to be typically in-universe terms where as something like Men of Magic is an Out-universe term.

For the record here, I tend to define magic as "Scholastic" (you study your magic); "Intuitive" (you just 'do' magic); and "Bestowed" (an outside source provides your magic)

[drewkitty ~..~]

This came to me when I was looking at the men of magic in RUE, the traditional casters that can learn any spell are all called mages while the mystic did not appear to be.

So that got me thinking are all magic users/men of magic a mage?

No, magic users like the psi mystic/mystic, priest. warlock and witch do not learn spells through study and practice. They are intuitive magic users (PM/M), and Granted magic users (P,W,&W).
(Yep, Shifters straddle the line if they make a bone with a SN being.)

A 'Mage' being someone who has spent years developing their ability to make magic through the casting of spells. The examples the primary Mage type per setting are: Rifts: LLW, PF2: Wizard, HU2: Mystic Study, NB: Sorcerer.

Some like the T-man do not cast spells at all, but instead have magical abilities.
Others are not trained but born like the elemental fusionist and some magic using rccs.

So I am wondering would you consider all men of magic a mage?

T-men/TA UdS, have more in common with men@arms that use magic weapons and stuff then a real magic user.

"...magic using rccs." are you referring to Races that have innate magic abilities like the Silhouette or a race's race restricted CC like the Nordanor CC from the Children of the Moon (R4)?

[Shark_Force]

i would generally equate "mage" with "someone who is primarily focused on casting spells". i doubt most common folk make much of a distinction about the source of that knowledge, with few exceptions (priests of light probably are treated differently by people who worship the same deity/pantheon/whatever, for example).

i don't think most people would consider a tatooed man a mage (though certainly they use magic), nor do i think most would consider a class that will only ever know a handful of specific spells to be a mage (for example, a gypsy thief or a jungle elf that is not from an OCC that grants some extensive spell knowledge), though of course we're talking in general terms, and some people will classify things differently. it is almost certain that there will be some measure of prejudice for some people (i wouldn't be surprised if many more traditional spellcasters don't consider nazcan line drawers to be spellcasters, for example) and jealousy too (there are probably some who argue that stone magic isn't really spellcasting because they're just activating gems rather than casting spells because they're envious of the prestige stone magic enjoys in some circles). and there will almost assuredly be some that blur the lines (for example, conjurers) where you'll have opinions on both sides of the fence.

and of course, there will be times when people don't have enough information to make an informed classification and will sometimes assume that someone who casts a single spell (like that jungle elf i mentioned) knows more, or that someone who used a magical but non-spell ability (like a tatooed man) did so through a spell (that is, if they see a lightning bolt heading in their direction, they're unlikely to ask whether it came from a TW device in the hands of a minor psionic headhunter, a tatooed man, or a ley line walker (or for that matter, a psychic using electrokinesis), if they can't see the source they'll probably just assume "mage" until they are given reason to think otherwise).

[Axelmania]

Many of the spell descriptions use 'mage' or 'sorcerer' so since Mystics have access to all of them, I have to look at them as being pretty broad terms

[Library Ogre]

The terms are applied imprecisely across the Palladium System; I tend to be of like mind with Eli, finding the most useful delineation being Learned v. Granted v. Intuitive. Tattoo men, for example, would be Granted... they can't make tattoos on their own, or design new tattoos, just use the ones they've been given. This would be different than Chiang-Ku Tattoo Masters, who can create tattoos for themselves and others.

[Blue_Lion]

The terms are applied imprecisely across the Palladium System; I tend to be of like mind with Eli, finding the most useful delineation being Learned v. Granted v. Intuitive. Tattoo men, for example, would be Granted... they can't make tattoos on their own, or design new tattoos, just use the ones they've been given. This would be different than Chiang-Ku Tattoo Masters, who can create tattoos for themselves and others.

How would you classify TW?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Techno Wizards are Learned magic users…mages.

[Blue_Lion]

Techno Wizards are Learned magic users…mages.

not just the class but the items they make.

[boring7]

Techno Wizards are Learned magic users…mages.

not just the class but the items they make.

A techno-wizard is a mage. The item a Techno-wizard makes is an item. Someone with lots and lots of techno-wizard items he did not make attached to his utility belt is magical batmannot a mage.

On the topic of Techno-wizards, a question has been percolating in my head. Golems have the problem of costing permanent SDC loss to make, but could that SDC be taken from others (volunteers, or not), especially if it was a TW golem-forge?

[Shark_Force]

Techno Wizards are Learned magic users…mages.

not just the class but the items they make.

A techno-wizard is a mage. The item a Techno-wizard makes is an item. Someone with lots and lots of techno-wizard items he did not make attached to his utility belt is magical batmannot a mage.

On the topic of Techno-wizards, a question has been percolating in my head. Golems have the problem of costing permanent SDC loss to make, but could that SDC be taken from others (volunteers, or not), especially if it was a TW golem-forge?

under normal circumstances, i don't think you could take the SDC from others (though for some classes, it is absolutely possible... african witch, for example, and i think harvesters of nxla or something like that? of course, the witch doesn't get access to golems, no idea about the nxla things...)

with a TW device that makes golems, it might be possible. i mean, just about anything is possible with techno-wizardry if your GM says it is, so... as with any TW device, basically, "ask your DM".

[drewkitty ~..~]

Techno Wizards are Learned magic users…mages.

not just the class but the items they make.

Are other magic items considered mages? No.

Magic items are magic items, even if they are called TW devices.

Now, Rune weapons, there can be arguments for individual greatest ones at being independent enough to be considered to be magic users, but not Mages. They can not learn new spells from a teaching mage.

[taalismn]

I assume that in-universe 'mage' as a name started out belonging to only a few hardcore magic users, but like military berets, the use of the term became more widespread as more and more magic-users wanted to be identified with the 'in' crowd. So now, you got conservative old-school magic-users getting into bar and great hall fights with correspondence course-educated (or, gods helps us, online internet magic academy) spell-slingers over who's properly entitled to use the name 'mage'.

[Blue_Lion]

Techno Wizards are Learned magic users…mages.

not just the class but the items they make.

A techno-wizard is a mage. The item a Techno-wizard makes is an item. Someone with lots and lots of techno-wizard items he did not make attached to his utility belt is magical batmannot a mage.

On the topic of Techno-wizards, a question has been percolating in my head. Golems have the problem of costing permanent SDC loss to make, but could that SDC be taken from others (volunteers, or not), especially if it was a TW golem-forge?

I was kind of wondering you would treat users of TW as having granted magic like the T-man was said to be.

I would rule if the item is casting the spell it is the item that looses SDC do to stress of making the golem could be something like part of the device shearing off during the forging process. (I rule that althou the spell is used in creation of TW the spell does not actually go off in creation.)

[Library Ogre]

I was kind of wondering you would treat users of TW as having granted magic like the T-man was said to be.

I would rule if the item is casting the spell it is the item that looses SDC do to stress of making the golem could be something like part of the device shearing off during the forging process. (I rule that althou the spell is used in creation of TW the spell does not actually go off in creation.)

No, I wouldn't. There's a term from the Robert Aspirin Myth series that I use for folks like that... mechanics.

Let's take a psychic elf of unusually large PPE base and even more unusually large credit base. He's psychic, so he can use TW items. He likes magic, but never had the chance to learn it. So, he pays a TW to make magic items that will let him pretend to cast spells. He's not a magician, he's not a mage... he's a mechanic. He hasn't been granted magic in the way a witch or T-man have... it hasn't become an intrinsic ability. You can mug him and he stops being able to do magic.

[boring7]

I assume that in-universe 'mage' as a name started out belonging to only a few hardcore magic users, but like military berets, the use of the term became more widespread as more and more magic-users wanted to be identified with the 'in' crowd. So now, you got conservative old-school magic-users getting into bar and great hall fights with correspondence course-educated (or, gods helps us, online internet magic academy) spell-slingers over who's properly entitled to use the name 'mage'.

That's my headcanon. Also explains why scrolls are so incredibly expensive. They COULD be produced in great quantity, but curtailing supply keeps the proles from wielding magic all willy-nilly.

[Nekira Sudacne]

This came to me when I was looking at the men of magic in RUE, the traditional casters that can learn any spell are all called mages while the mystic did not appear to be.

So that got me thinking are all magic users/men of magic a mage?

Some like the T-man do not cast spells at all, but instead have magical abilities.
Others are not trained but born like the elemental fusionist and some magic using rccs.

So I am wondering would you consider all men of magic a mage?

Does "Mage" have any actual meaning anyway?

Pretty sure it was just a nickname given to magic users.

[drewkitty ~..~]

"mage. "magician," c.1400, anglicized form of Latin magus "magician" (see magi). An "archaic" word by late 19c."

The Magi were the learned one in the time before the dark ages.
The three 'wise-men' that visited Jesus after his birth were magi from the area that is now southern Iraq. They knew about his birth due to text passed down from the time the Jews were in babylon, and watching the starts(planets).
So since mage is the english derivation of the latin magus. This learned one word meaning makes it very applicable in the game to mean that the char had to learn how to cast spells. Not 'they just knew' or 'they were handed the power'.