Cancellability of psionics

[Axelmania]

Someone pointed out psyscape page 33's duration statement "The psychic using a mind power can cancel/stop its effect or
influence instantly at any time."

I can't help but notice on page 34 though... "Cancelling a psionic power, effect, or manifestation can usually be done with a thought"

Isn't that a rather suspicious "usually"? That would imply to me that sometimes you can't cancel a power/effect/manifestation with a thought.

Could something besides a thought allow willing instant cancellation?

I'm beginning to think "mind power" may refer to only a select group of psionic powers which affect the mind, rather than thinking "mind power" and "psionic power" are equivalent expressions.

Psychic powers which amplify the physical body directly, for example, might be thought of as "a body power". Healing psionics for example, not being able to cancel a Healing Touch to re-inflict an injury, or being unable to turn off impervious to cold/fire/poisons/fatigue or Inner Strength or Night Vision. "See" or "Sense" powers don't seem to have any compelling reason to turn off either.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure I locked this discussion the other day. If I have to lock it again there may be warnings or beginnings. ` Jefffar

[eliakon]

I would say you can cancel most powers...
...the ones you can't cancel are powers that create secondary effects, or the primary is not totally under the creators power: create a fire, it will still burn, cancel hydro-kinesis the water goes SOMEWHERE, I am divided on if you can just 'cancel' levitation and drop people to their doom or if there is a 'safety switch' involved, a medium who has used a trance to summon a spirit is stuck with the spirit...
That sort of thing.
And of course you cant cancel something like healing to make their wounds come back.


But other than that, if the power is still affecting you, then sure stop pumping in ISP and it should stop right up.

[eliakon]

I would say you can cancel most powers...
...the ones you can't cancel are powers that create secondary effects, or the primary is not totally under the creators power: create a fire, it will still burn, cancel hydro-kinesis the water goes SOMEWHERE, I am divided on if you can just 'cancel' levitation and drop people to their doom or if there is a 'safety switch' involved, a medium who has used a trance to summon a spirit is stuck with the spirit...
That sort of thing.
And of course you cant cancel something like healing to make their wounds come back.


But other than that, if the power is still affecting you, then sure stop pumping in ISP and it should stop right up.

[Library Ogre]

Another power that you can't cancel would be Mind Bond... I had a GM who liked to Mind Bond people, then Mind Wipe them of what they acquired through the Bond, but you couldn't just drop the power, making the other person forget it, too.

[HWalsh]

Someone pointed out psyscape page 33's duration statement "The psychic using a mind power can cancel/stop its effect or
influence instantly at any time."

I can't help but notice on page 34 though... "Cancelling a psionic power, effect, or manifestation can usually be done with a thought"

Isn't that a rather suspicious "usually"? That would imply to me that sometimes you can't cancel a power/effect/manifestation with a thought.

Could something besides a thought allow willing instant cancellation?

I'm beginning to think "mind power" may refer to only a select group of psionic powers which affect the mind, rather than thinking "mind power" and "psionic power" are equivalent expressions.

Psychic powers which amplify the physical body directly, for example, might be thought of as "a body power". Healing psionics for example, not being able to cancel a Healing Touch to re-inflict an injury, or being unable to turn off impervious to cold/fire/poisons/fatigue or Inner Strength or Night Vision. "See" or "Sense" powers don't seem to have any compelling reason to turn off either.

Isn't this simply a continuation of the SA2 Neo-Human thread that you were in a heated debate regarding that eventually was locked?

Mind Power and Psionic Power are synonymous expressions. You can end Telekinesis whenever you want, you can end an MDC transformation whenever you want, and attempting to further codify them down by introducing the "Mind power might mean mind affecting power!" concept isn't going to change that. The books already codify powers and "mind powers" is used in place of "psionic powers" several times in several books.

The types of "psionic" or "mind" powers are, "Healing" "Physical" "Sensitive" and "Super Psionic"

[Kelorin]

One of the arguments in the other thread was the that SA2 Neo-Human's MDC transformation was a unique RCC ability and was thus exempt from the psionic cancellation bit in Psyscape. I wonder if the folks arguing that position would feel the same way about the Psi-Ghost's Intangibility power or the Psi-Mechanics Telemechanics power. I don't recall if the Psi-Ghost uses ISP for their power or not, but for the Psi-Mechanic the power doesn't have a cost and is constant. So using the same logic, I guess that means that once you link with a mechanical device you are permanently bonded to it until you die.

[kaid]

Someone pointed out psyscape page 33's duration statement "The psychic using a mind power can cancel/stop its effect or
influence instantly at any time."

I can't help but notice on page 34 though... "Cancelling a psionic power, effect, or manifestation can usually be done with a thought"

Isn't that a rather suspicious "usually"? That would imply to me that sometimes you can't cancel a power/effect/manifestation with a thought.

Could something besides a thought allow willing instant cancellation?

I'm beginning to think "mind power" may refer to only a select group of psionic powers which affect the mind, rather than thinking "mind power" and "psionic power" are equivalent expressions.

Psychic powers which amplify the physical body directly, for example, might be thought of as "a body power". Healing psionics for example, not being able to cancel a Healing Touch to re-inflict an injury, or being unable to turn off impervious to cold/fire/poisons/fatigue or Inner Strength or Night Vision. "See" or "Sense" powers don't seem to have any compelling reason to turn off either.

Most powers just turn off or turn on at will. Some though like like the suggestion powers may have this be useful. For those once you activate the power you basically are convincing them to act on something and even though the power is not maintained they will keep going with that behavior for a while. I would assume something like this allows you to snap them out of it faster.

[dreicunan]

One of the arguments in the other thread was the that SA2 Neo-Human's MDC transformation was a unique RCC ability and was thus exempt from the psionic cancellation bit in Psyscape. I wonder if the folks arguing that position would feel the same way about the Psi-Ghost's Intangibility power or the Psi-Mechanics Telemechanics power. I don't recall if the Psi-Ghost uses ISP for their power or not, but for the Psi-Mechanic the power doesn't have a cost and is constant. So using the same logic, I guess that means that once you link with a mechanical device you are permanently bonded to it until you die.

Intangibility is a mutant power, not a psionic power, and it is noted as such in the write-up. In fact, it says point blank that it is not a psionic power on page 63 of Psyscape. 96.5% of Psi-ghosts have the Intangibility power, meaning 3.5% do not have the ability.

[Axelmania]

Mind Power and Psionic Power are synonymous expressions.

I don't agree with that. Mind Power could refer to non-psionic powers too (like a super ability that influences minds) and given the contradiction between 33/34 we must discern how these statements could coexist.

You can end Telekinesis whenever you want,

Source? You can obviously cease applying it to an object but the ability to keep using it probably retains.

Although being able to turn off non-mind powers would be pretty helpful if you wanted to stop a Psi-Stalker who's almost tracked you down...

But that could be a fun risk to non-mind powers.

you can end an MDC transformation whenever you want, and attempting to further codify them down by introducing the "Mind power might mean mind affecting power!" concept isn't going to change that.

So if my mage friend casts Giant on me, I can end that whenever I want?

I was under the impression that only a mage could cancel a spell he cast.

I'll bring up a different example from South America 2 for you.

Page 187, the Larhold Human Renegade, spends 25 PPE to become MDC for 3 minutes per level.

It doesn't say anywhere that he can simply will himself back to SDC at any time, so I will not assume he has any such ability.

It happening to be powered by the same thing which powers magic (PPE) wouldn't lead me to assume that it followed the rules of spellcasting either, because it isn't spellcasting.

Page 29 the Rune Warrior has the OCC Ability/Bonus 1. of Supernatural Transformation into an MDC being. No duration is given, and it doesn't say they can change back, so I also assume they cannot. Once they use the ability the first time, they stay MDC. I guess since their skin-etched runes did it, perhaps flaying them might end it, up to the GM.

"mind powers" is used in place of "psionic powers" several times in several books.

Some examples?

The types of "psionic" or "mind" powers are, "Healing" "Physical" "Sensitive" and "Super Psionic"

'Mind' sounds like a reference to sensitive and certain super to me. Sort of like what you can use while astrally projecting.

I wonder if the folks arguing that position would feel the same way about the Psi-Ghost's Intangibility power

This is explicitly a super-power and there's bound to be some text in Heroes Unlimited saying you can turn it off. It does not cost ISP.

or the Psi-Mechanics Telemechanics power. I don't recall if the Psi-Ghost uses ISP for their power or not, but for the Psi-Mechanic the power doesn't have a cost and is constant. So using the same logic, I guess that means that once you link with a mechanical device you are permanently bonded to it until you die.

I suggest you reread page 75 of Psyscape. The meaning of "constant" isn't clear here. It says "the duration is doubled" so it clearly isn't permanent, it would only last 20 minutes + 4 per level of experience. Then they would have to get back within 5 ft of the machine to renew the power.

As best I can figure, 'constant' might mean they don't need to spend an action to activate it, or simply refer to their ability to reactivate it constantly since it costs 0 ISP to use.

There's nothing really stopping a Psi-Tech from using Telemechanics on hundreds of machines (5 attacks per melee would be 20 uses per minute, you could use it 400 times before the first ran out) and no penalties are listed for bonding. So even if you ignored the 'duration is double' statement and interpreted 'constant' to mean 'forever' I don't really see a problem with it.

Another problem with your reasoning here is this ability says "an enhanced form of the psionic ability" so it is identical to the power except for what follows after the "where it differs" statement.

RCC abilities can be psionic abilities too, but they need to be described that way for us to think that.

[dreicunan]

Mind Power and Psionic Power are synonymous expressions.

I don't agree with that. Mind Power could refer to non-psionic powers too (like a super ability that influences minds) and given the contradiction between 33/34 we must discern how these statements could coexist.

"Psionic is the term used to refer to psychic abilities; extraordinary powers of the mind and sensory perception." - Psyscape p. 32

"Psychic. Any human or D-Bee who possesses psionic abilities is generally regarded as a psychic, but any living creature (usually intelligent) who possesses mental powers can be considered "psychic." The word "psychic" has its origins in 20th Century Earth and pertains to the human mind or psyche (mind and soul/spirit). 20th and 21st Centuries humans also referred to "mind powers" and extraordinary sensory abilities as "Extra-
Sensory Perception," or E.S.P. Such abilities include clairvoyance, telepathy, empathy, the ability to see auras, and telekinesis, among a host of others. Even on Rifts Earth, exactly what psychic abilities are, and how they work remains a mystery." - Psyscape p. 32

There is no contradiction between pages 33 and 34 of Psyscape. While the words "mind power" in the English language could refer to other things generally, it is being used in this section of Psyscape in the context of defining terms used to refer to psychics and psychic powers, which is what is done on pages 32-34 of the book. Above is the clear evidence that physical psionic powers are included amongst the powers referred to by "mind powers," and thus your premise is false. The terms are indeed synonymous, as HWalsh pointed out earlier.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Someone pointed out psyscape page 33's duration statement "The psychic using a mind power can cancel/stop its effect or
influence instantly at any time."

I can't help but notice on page 34 though... "Cancelling a psionic power, effect, or manifestation can usually be done with a thought"

Isn't that a rather suspicious "usually"? That would imply to me that sometimes you can't cancel a power/effect/manifestation with a thought.

Could something besides a thought allow willing instant cancellation?

I'm beginning to think "mind power" may refer to only a select group of psionic powers which affect the mind, rather than thinking "mind power" and "psionic power" are equivalent expressions.

Psychic powers which amplify the physical body directly, for example, might be thought of as "a body power". Healing psionics for example, not being able to cancel a Healing Touch to re-inflict an injury, or being unable to turn off impervious to cold/fire/poisons/fatigue or Inner Strength or Night Vision. "See" or "Sense" powers don't seem to have any compelling reason to turn off either.

"Usually" means there might be a few exceptions. Trying to argue that physical ones therefore cannot be cancelled is really pushing your stance past the point of credence. I might ceed that maybe the neo human tranceformation can't be canceled at will, but you have no source for a hard "no physical powers can be cancled" but some pretty broad conjecture. Ater all, psionics in general are stated to be cancelable, including phsical by default unless something says otherwise. We also know all mind powers can be stopped at will, whatever a "mind power" is. Nothing you have said suggests physical powers cannot be stopped as a rule, only that there might be a few that cannot. Unless mind power is synominous with psionic power, in which case only a power that specifically says it cannot be canceled or is always on cannot be canceled. It is undefined so hard to say either way

[J_cobbers]

you can end an MDC transformation whenever you want, and attempting to further codify them down by introducing the "Mind power might mean mind affecting power!" concept isn't going to change that.

So if my mage friend casts Giant on me, I can end that whenever I want?

No, but your mage friend, who cast it can because he controls to spell not you. You're purposely taking HWalsh too literally. I believe he is referring to an individual's own power, such as Neo human being able to end their transformation at will, or like a hatchling dragon being able end their metamorphosis at any time prior to the duration expiring.

I was under the impression that only a mage could cancel a spell he cast.

Yes. Likewise a psionic power can be canceled by the person who is using it.

I'll bring up a different example from South America 2 for you.

Page 187, the Larhold Human Renegade, spends 25 PPE to become MDC for 3 minutes per level.

It doesn't say anywhere that he can simply will himself back to SDC at any time, so I will not assume he has any such ability.

It happening to be powered by the same thing which powers magic (PPE) wouldn't lead me to assume that it followed the rules of spellcasting either, because it isn't spellcasting.

This sees like a logical RAW argument as pg 187 RUE mentions OCC powers, but nothing about being able to cancel them like spells on pg 188. Obviously this can be house ruled but strict RUE for this (non-psychic) OCC power. The question for this topic is whether the Neo Human transformation is likewise just a OCC power, or as is has been put for by others, a psychic power, which would then be subject to the Psyscape rule allowing it to be canceled at will.

Page 29 the Rune Warrior has the OCC Ability/Bonus 1. of Supernatural Transformation into an MDC being. No duration is given, and it doesn't say they can change back, so I also assume they cannot. Once they use the ability the first time, they stay MDC. I guess since their skin-etched runes did it, perhaps flaying them might end it, up to the GM.

The rune warrior is a permanent feature of the OCC. It's a transformation done at character creation, not an activated power. I.E. all rune warriors are default MDC when you roll them up by virtue of the OCC. Just like Dragon hatchlings and other supernatural beings are by default MDC creatures in Rifts.