Techno Wizard Help

[Hadeshorn]

In my current game, we're playing in the Coalition/Tolkeen war on the Tolkeen side. In our last session, we managed to get our hands on a mostly intact Death's Head Transport.

Are there any established rules for converting it into a TW vehicle? I've found stuff for smaller vehicles but nothing of this size so far.

[mercedogre]

might wanna take a look at the TW Ironhorse (locomotive train) for some guidance. Something as big as the transport would require alot of power, might have to make it a ley line vehicle so it has a constant source of energy.

[flatline]

RMB has rules for converting the power source.

--flatline

[ShadowLogan]

In my current game, we're playing in the Coalition/Tolkeen war on the Tolkeen side. In our last session, we managed to get our hands on a mostly intact Death's Head Transport.

Are there any established rules for converting it into a TW vehicle? I've found stuff for smaller vehicles but nothing of this size so far.

I don't think there are established rules per say, but there are large TW vehicles that might help guide you:
-WB14 Ironhorse (previously suggested)
-WB16 also has TW vehicles (large platforms, not as large as a DHT)
-RMB & RUE TW examples include Skyboats in the OCC (they can go up to Frigate size, which per WB7 would be bigger than a DHT)
-Phaseworld has United Worlds of Warlock with star ships (and space stations) with magical systems (so DHT size or better)
-WB7 has the Splugorth Sea Skimmer with magical systems (it dwarfs a DHT)
-SB4 has the TW Windjammer Frigate-class ships in use by Queen's Harbor (not quite as large as a DHT)

Really though it is up to the GM if they will impose the no more than 4 feature or not given the shear size (as some of these examples indicate)

[Shark_Force]

iirc, the limit on larger vehicles is 6 functions. i'm fairly certain the death's head is a larger vehicle, so it should at least be able to handle 6 functions

anyways, i wouldn't convert the engine over to TW any time soon. why bother? it already has a nuclear power plant that will last years. add in other functions if you want, but it doesn't seem like there would be much to gain from converting the power supply.

[taalismn]

Be sure to disguise that sucker... sink LOTS into TW vehicular invisibility , ILLUSION, and stealth, because a DHT's going to draw all sorts of the WRONG attention.

[Shark_Force]

Be sure to disguise that sucker... sink LOTS into TW vehicular invisibility , ILLUSION, and stealth, because a DHT's going to draw all sorts of the WRONG attention.

honestly, i'm not sure there's a way to really disguise it adequately without some fairly substantial remodeling. i mean, it's a giant box on a giant rocket disk or something like that. getting rid of the skull face isn't going to be enough, you're gonna need to make the whole thing a different shape, maybe even change the sound, if you don't want people to realize this is a death's head and not some form of alien vehicle.

(on the plus side, i rather suspect you could do plenty of remodeling without making the aerodynamics any worse. it's basically a giant rocket-brick by default, after all).

[Hadeshorn]

I'm not sure on the remodeling part, as we did crash the thing initially.

Short version: Dragon went inside as an invisible owl and dropped a communications emp grenade inside before smashing the controls on the bridge to he'll. After that, my Phoenixi drained the engines with the Fire Warlock Absorb spell before using the energy to blast the hover disc to pieces. From there we retreated as we were outgunned by the various units inside. When we returned to the crash, a lot of the important bits were stripped. We have the mostly intact hull and reactor for certain.

[Shark_Force]

in that case, it sounds rather like you have a large immobile hull which is likely to only be useful as a base (and possibly not even that, particularly), and a very valuable nuclear reactor capable of generating enough power to lift that base (but not the engine to do so).

i kinda suspect it would be cheaper to just build something else from scratch than it would be to repair anything. even if the CS doesn't come looking long before you're done repairs. which, assuming they're even remotely competent, they probably will do. with stuff that won't get punked by an invisible owl.

[J_cobbers]

I'm surprised the CS didn't activate a self destruct / melt down the reactor when they abandoned it rather than let it fall into enemy hands. With enough Techno wizards you could do all kinds of crazy stuff with the shell and powerplant as a host frame assuming most of the MDC is still intact. They'll have to replace the hover disk with something; maybe some legs ala a behemoth explorer or an Imperial AT-AT walker. Basically you have a blank slate to go wild with.

[ShadowLogan]

in that case, it sounds rather like you have a large immobile hull which is likely to only be useful as a base (and possibly not even that, particularly), and a very valuable nuclear reactor capable of generating enough power to lift that base (but not the engine to do so).

I'm not sure about that, there are some unkowns but:
-Ley Line location (if its on, near enough to, a Ley Line, you could turn it into a TW Skyboat restoring some degree of mobility)
-if you can get under it (ie lift it up), you might be able to install a wheeled/thread/hover system of locamotion (restoring some mobility, in some ways better than the TW Skyboat but in other ways not as good), probably require some heavy duty system in multiple "pods". Trying to come up with leg system seems like a massive stretch and not something that could be as easily done (IMHO, which is why I left it off the list) in a short amount of time (a simple Hover system seems also a stretch, but more believable IMHO than trying to duplicate the undercarriage saucer). Granted you still need to procure a powerful system for the locomotion, and there might not be anything like that available given we are talking about moving over 500 tons (fully loaded a DHT is 1250tons, APC/bots come out to ~100tons, not sure how much the saucer weighs, but it probably has lets say 1/2 the mass given its mostly engine), which isn't going to be easy to find
-time and resources the group has to sink into the project and if they can do it before the CS or some other "salvager" comes along to rush them off
-weather and time of year, plus location (freak flash flood, earthquake, storms, etc to wash it away or bury it, D-Shifting, etc)
-they could probably also bury the hull with layers of dirt and such for use as a fixed base and give it some extra protection making it harder to spot but also giving them an added layer of material for physical protection.
-even without burring it (which is probably advisable) there are probably defense TW things that could make it more survivable

[Shark_Force]

in that case, it sounds rather like you have a large immobile hull which is likely to only be useful as a base (and possibly not even that, particularly), and a very valuable nuclear reactor capable of generating enough power to lift that base (but not the engine to do so).

I'm not sure about that, there are some unkowns but:
-Ley Line location (if its on, near enough to, a Ley Line, you could turn it into a TW Skyboat restoring some degree of mobility)
-if you can get under it (ie lift it up), you might be able to install a wheeled/thread/hover system of locamotion (restoring some mobility, in some ways better than the TW Skyboat but in other ways not as good), probably require some heavy duty system in multiple "pods". Trying to come up with leg system seems like a massive stretch and not something that could be as easily done (IMHO, which is why I left it off the list) in a short amount of time (a simple Hover system seems also a stretch, but more believable IMHO than trying to duplicate the undercarriage saucer). Granted you still need to procure a powerful system for the locomotion, and there might not be anything like that available given we are talking about moving over 500 tons (fully loaded a DHT is 1250tons, APC/bots come out to ~100tons, not sure how much the saucer weighs, but it probably has lets say 1/2 the mass given its mostly engine), which isn't going to be easy to find
-time and resources the group has to sink into the project and if they can do it before the CS or some other "salvager" comes along to rush them off
-weather and time of year, plus location (freak flash flood, earthquake, storms, etc to wash it away or bury it, D-Shifting, etc)
-they could probably also bury the hull with layers of dirt and such for use as a fixed base and give it some extra protection making it harder to spot but also giving them an added layer of material for physical protection.
-even without burring it (which is probably advisable) there are probably defense TW things that could make it more survivable

all those difficulties of moving it are what makes me think it's only likely to be of any use as a fixed location base.

and even if you could build one of those methods of locomotion (in the middle of nowhere, with no resources specifically for that task, while the CS is probably planning on coming back to get their very expensive nuclear power plant), you would need to assess which important parts were removed (because you can bet they were told to do everything they could to make sure nobody else could salvage it), figure out how to replace them, and then make the repairs (again, with no infrastructure or parts) *before the CS comes back*.

that is non-trivial, and is a lot of work for a hull that, in and of itself, is not very special.

now, if the disk was (mostly) intact and could be readily repaired, then heck yeah, try and steal that thing. heck, salvage as much of the MDC structure as you can after looting the power plant (which is probably the most valuable part left by several orders of magnitude). steal all the cool electronic bits you can get your hands on, swipe any information that the crew were dumb enough to leave behind (but don't trust the veracity of it too much unless it's confirmed by external sources), grab anything from any weapons lockers or armoury or medical sections that didn't get taken (check them over before using them also... remember, they took the time to strip the vehicle, so anything they left behind is suspect until you've checked it out thoroughly), and sure, if you have a superheavy transport available, even take the hull and whatever's left of the engine. who knows, maybe you can learn something that will help you capture a more intact death's head in the future. in the more likely event that you don't have a superheavy transport, steal the sensor systems and computers, swipe the weapon systems if you can, take any unused missiles that got left behind, heck, pop open the glove compartment and steal the map if they have one... but don't sit around a giant pile of valuable resources that the CS will likely be coming back for. remember, there has NEVER been a death's head available on the black market. that implies that the CS is taking special precautions to keep these things from falling into enemy hands.

as it stands, i can't help feeling you'd be better off salvaging the most valuable parts, and use the resources gained to build your own cool mobile base from scratch (or to create a fleet of vehicles and support troops... put the railgun into a golden age armaments tank chassis, convert some NG labour bots to mount the laser turrets, and convert a mountaineer into a missile artillery support vehicle or something). if nothing else, you can probably get a lot of money just from the power plant (after you check it out for sabotage... speaking of which, remember you have telemechanics to quickly check for missing key parts and such). and then use that money to build something else.

[guardiandashi]

my suggestion not how practical it is but... I would try to move/hide it asap, then gather the resources to repair/move it to a location where you can defend it while rebuilding it as desired as one possibility.

the other more "realistic" plan might be to hide/camouflage or move it a little way (so the coalition can't find it easily) then sell the location of it to a "friendly" group in exchange for a more practical "party bus" see other threads discussing the best vehicle for a party to use.

part of the argument for selling it to someone else really comes down to "does the party have the resources to use/repair/defend it?" if the answer is no then there is no real incentive (and lots of reasons NOT to) to keep it. if for no other reason than that the coalition and their allies would basically go after you with kill on sight orders.

[rem1093]

What about levitation? If you can TW that into it for lift. You can use the normal engines for movement.

[ShadowLogan]

all those difficulties of moving it are what makes me think it's only likely to be of any use as a fixed location base....

I agree the most likely use w/o more information about their circumstances (Ley Line loc, etc) is to use it as a fixed location base or to sell it for cash. That though doesn't mean they don't have other theoretical options.

Getting conventional ground locomotion is probably possible, it just depends on finding something with enough cargo capacity to support the weight and the numbers. They don't need a custom job either, they could in theory use several vehicles to combine their capacity, and then have those vehicles operate synchronously (not viable in long term, but in the near term it would be possible to at least move it). The main stumbling block is getting access to vehicles with enough capacity, fully loaded a DHT is 1250tons, but we don't know what the mass is in its current stripped down and saucer-in-pieces section has done to the mass, and getting them into position (which can't be easy).

What about levitation? If you can TW that into it for lift. You can use the normal engines for movement.

Levitation/flight capabilities are supposed to be impossible outside the influence of a Ley Line (though not surpising there are contradictions).

RMB pg94 and RUE pg136 "The techno-wizard's magic is not normally sufficient to power aircraft, but with the additional energy of the ley line, they can utilize flying devices." RMB's (but not RUE, which doesn't have a similar list) does not include flight/levitation as an option under "Features that can be added to Vehicles", interestingly enough BoM's compiled list on pg334-6 includes flight systems, but makes no restriction to Ley Lines. While BoM allows it we don't know how long it will take to build (technically, plugging in PPE Construction cost into the RUE TW rules requires over 30hours, and that assumes they have the proper materials, and the Device Level is 1, which it might not be), and that assumes these features aren't restricted by the TK Flyer entry's tid bit requiring ley lines. We also don't know if they have the proper gems, or time (the place has been stripped, so who knows who might come back...)

[Mack]

Given how little is left of it, I wouldn't attempt rebuilding it. Strip whatever's left as you see fit, then sell the location to someone else.

Keep in mind that any TW mods won't be an easy job. It could take a team of Techno-Wizards a few months of work.

[Hadeshorn]

We were "relatively " close to Tolkeen so they actually rifted/teleported it back to there for us. We've also got two mostly intact Samus suits for resources as well (one is missing the rail gun and has battle da age, the other I melted the head/helmet).

[dragonfett]

Three NG Hovertrains side by side two cars long could just about carry a fully loaded DHT. Would probably need additional cars for the length, but just weight wise three NG Hovertrains could theoretically do it. You would have to hook a special rig up so that the locomotives weren't rubbing up against one another. But it is a moot point now.

[Hadeshorn]

I talked to the DM some today and he's cool with using the stuff from the first Coalition war book. It'll take some time getting the thing repaired and such but given the power level of the campaign, it will serve us more as a mobile bass than as the crazy extra firepower it might be.

[Shark_Force]

What about levitation? If you can TW that into it for lift. You can use the normal engines for movement.

Levitation/flight capabilities are supposed to be impossible outside the influence of a Ley Line (though not surpising there are contradictions).

RMB pg94 and RUE pg136 "The techno-wizard's magic is not normally sufficient to power aircraft, but with the additional energy of the ley line, they can utilize flying devices." RMB's (but not RUE, which doesn't have a similar list) does not include flight/levitation as an option under "Features that can be added to Vehicles", interestingly enough BoM's compiled list on pg334-6 includes flight systems, but makes no restriction to Ley Lines. While BoM allows it we don't know how long it will take to build (technically, plugging in PPE Construction cost into the RUE TW rules requires over 30hours, and that assumes they have the proper materials, and the Device Level is 1, which it might not be), and that assumes these features aren't restricted by the TK Flyer entry's tid bit requiring ley lines. We also don't know if they have the proper gems, or time (the place has been stripped, so who knows who might come back...)

yes, but that's a silly rule. which not even palladium seems to feel any need to follow.

if you can power a modern day car, you have an engine that is powerful enough to get an airplane flying. i mean, you're not going to have a modern fighter jet or anything, but WWI aircraft were built with engines that had mid-100 horsepower (the two examples i was able to find quickly were 130 and 150 hp, specifically).

that's in the range of most modern smaller cars (not the really tiny ones... something like a corolla or civic). the amount of power you'd need to make a large land vehicle get moving would presumably be ridiculous, and a modern high-end sportscar (which there is no indication you couldn't do with a TW engine) can have 700+ horsepower. the output you'd need for something like a hover vehicle (which again, is considered a ground vehicle in rifts as far as i can tell and would have been allowed to be converted to TW) is quite ridiculous. who knows what the vehicles of 2100 will have in terms of performance, but i suspect that for vehicles as advanced as those of rifts earth likely are, horsepower is likely even higher for regular ground vehicles.

now, horsepower isn't the *only* concern. but basically, it makes no sense to say that flight is absolutely impossible. you might not be able to get jet-propelled flight or rocket-propelled flight (even though that's basically what a rifts hover vehicle is, and again, you can convert those), but you should be able to get some things to fly.

(on the other hand, as a blanket ruling, i can somewhat understand why they'd have that... a rule like "if a 400 HP engine that weighs 250 lbs and displaces 18 litres etc could power a given aircraft, then you can convert it to TW" is probably something most of us are not going to be prepared for. still, something like "you can convert any non-jet aircraft built before 19XX" would be fairly easy to adjudicate, plus allows for some innovation in terms of designing similar aircraft that didn't exist but theoretically could have, without putting a silly arbitrary limit that doesn't hold up to any investigation at all).

[ShadowLogan]

What about levitation? If you can TW that into it for lift. You can use the normal engines for movement.

Levitation/flight capabilities are supposed to be impossible outside the influence of a Ley Line (though not surpising there are contradictions).

RMB pg94 and RUE pg136 "The techno-wizard's magic is not normally sufficient to power aircraft, but with the additional energy of the ley line, they can utilize flying devices." RMB's (but not RUE, which doesn't have a similar list) does not include flight/levitation as an option under "Features that can be added to Vehicles", interestingly enough BoM's compiled list on pg334-6 includes flight systems, but makes no restriction to Ley Lines. While BoM allows it we don't know how long it will take to build (technically, plugging in PPE Construction cost into the RUE TW rules requires over 30hours, and that assumes they have the proper materials, and the Device Level is 1, which it might not be), and that assumes these features aren't restricted by the TK Flyer entry's tid bit requiring ley lines. We also don't know if they have the proper gems, or time (the place has been stripped, so who knows who might come back...)

yes, but that's a silly rule. which not even palladium seems to feel any need to follow.

if you can power a modern day car, you have an engine that is powerful enough to get an airplane flying. i mean, you're not going to have a modern fighter jet or anything, but WWI aircraft were built with engines that had mid-100 horsepower (the two examples i was able to find quickly were 130 and 150 hp, specifically).

that's in the range of most modern smaller cars (not the really tiny ones... something like a corolla or civic). the amount of power you'd need to make a large land vehicle get moving would presumably be ridiculous, and a modern high-end sportscar (which there is no indication you couldn't do with a TW engine) can have 700+ horsepower. the output you'd need for something like a hover vehicle (which again, is considered a ground vehicle in rifts as far as i can tell and would have been allowed to be converted to TW) is quite ridiculous. who knows what the vehicles of 2100 will have in terms of performance, but i suspect that for vehicles as advanced as those of rifts earth likely are, horsepower is likely even higher for regular ground vehicles.

now, horsepower isn't the *only* concern. but basically, it makes no sense to say that flight is absolutely impossible. you might not be able to get jet-propelled flight or rocket-propelled flight (even though that's basically what a rifts hover vehicle is, and again, you can convert those), but you should be able to get some things to fly.

(on the other hand, as a blanket ruling, i can somewhat understand why they'd have that... a rule like "if a 400 HP engine that weighs 250 lbs and displaces 18 litres etc could power a given aircraft, then you can convert it to TW" is probably something most of us are not going to be prepared for. still, something like "you can convert any non-jet aircraft built before 19XX" would be fairly easy to adjudicate, plus allows for some innovation in terms of designing similar aircraft that didn't exist but theoretically could have, without putting a silly arbitrary limit that doesn't hold up to any investigation at all).

I agree it's a rule that doesn't make much sense*, but then again it IS magic AND it is in the rules (so baring house rules it should be in effect w/exceptions in canon). In addition on pg92 of RMB under the TK Engine it does add "hover vehicles designed to hover only a few feet off the ground (not hover aircraft). The TK-engine can also be installed in motorized boats, but not aircraft."

*especially sense starting around SoT series IINM they seem to toss the rule out with a few of the Iron Juggernauts (then again these aren't typical TW class constructs), and some of their other TW vehicles.

[Shark_Force]

i don't consider the iron juggernauts an exception... so far as i'm concerned, they're probably closer to bio-wizardry than techno-wizardry.

but there are a lot of flying TW vehicles now. and very few of them require a ley line to function. and while yes, it *is* magic, it's magic combined with technology. the input for the engine might be magical, but the output is completely mundane. you can hook up a TW generator to a regular lightbulb. a TW engine in a car does not need a TW axel or TW wheels.

you're not building a TW airplane, you're building a TW engine, and that engine should not care whether it is 2 feet above ground or 2000 feet above ground. you're not lifting the vehicle and moving it around with telekinesis, you're making the engine run, and if the engine runs well enough to provide several hundred horsepower to a ground vehicle, it should do the same for an air vehicle.

now, tree trimmers, wing boards, and sky boats, sure, those are not being propelled by engines, that's magic lifting them off the ground and moving them around. but the TK engine not being powerful enough is just silly (now, if the TK engine literally could not achieve the same performance as a conventional one, no problem... if a TK engine had half the speed, drastically worse acceleration, etc, i'd say fine, it can't be used to power aircraft... but if a TK engine in a car works the same, it should work the same in an airplane)

(for what it's worth, only the TK engines even have that silly restriction... you can convert electric and combustion engines with absolutely no mention of being for ground craft only).

[ShadowLogan]

i don't consider the iron juggernauts an exception... so far as i'm concerned, they're probably closer to bio-wizardry than techno-wizardry.

I agree they aren't typical TW items, but they are classified as Techno-Wizard in SoT and BoM (BoM also classifies the Automatons in WB16 as TW, though they are more like super golems, which aren't considered TW elsewhere). Though I suspect TW has sub-branches (like psionic gear given Caliber-X, Amaki Gizmoteer, etc), and this might be another one (given they aren't the only TW constructs that bind creatures).

but there are a lot of flying TW vehicles now. and very few of them require a ley line to function. and while yes, it *is* magic, it's magic combined with technology. the input for the engine might be magical, but the output is completely mundane. you can hook up a TW generator to a regular lightbulb. a TW engine in a car does not need a TW axel or TW wheels.

Well if we go back to RMB/BoM, the TK-engine conversion doesn't rule out hover vehicles, just hover aircraft, without the use of a Ley Line. Off hand that should take care of a good number of those TW flying vehicles.

While I get that it is magic combined with technology, we are still faced with statements that prevent non-Ley Line powered TW aircraft.

, and that engine should not care whether it is 2 feet above ground or 2000 feet above ground

Should not, but it does per RAW. Which could be more of a player character limitation rather than a mass market manufacturer limitation.

(for what it's worth, only the TK engines even have that silly restriction... you can convert electric and combustion engines with absolutely no mention of being for ground craft only)

Electric true, but there are very few all-electric aircraft, so in theory it may be possible, in actual practice it is much more difficult.

At least as far as RMB/BoM, combustion engines can not be converted via TW. Any combustion engine that is converted first turns it into a steam or electric driven system, which is then converted into a TW system.

[flatline]

If the rule doesn't make sense (which it doesn't), change it or ignore it.

50 horse power is plenty to fly something small.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

If the rule doesn't make sense (which it doesn't), change it or ignore it.

50 horse power is plenty to fly something small.

--flatline

yup. rifts was not made for people to blindly follow.

(oh, and by the look of things, the main reason we haven't seen a lot of electric-powered aircraft is capability, not desirability. we had remote-controlled gas-powered model aircraft for years and years. now just about everything runs on electricity. if we had lightweight electrical storage and powerful electrical engines that wouldn't drain said storage too quickly, we'd probably have full-sized electric aircraft. rifts earth has those things, apparently, so there's no real reason to presume that when building simple aircraft, they would never be powered by electrical engines. likewise for any aircraft found that were made in the golden age).

and yes, converting a combustion engine requires converting it to a different engine. but it doesn't say "and then the performance drops off massively", so presumably the switch has no effect (or at least, a small enough effect that they didn't feel the need to modify the game statistics in any way at all).

[ShadowLogan]

If the rule doesn't make sense (which it doesn't), change it or ignore it.

50 horse power is plenty to fly something small.

--flatline

yup. rifts was not made for people to blindly follow.

Oh I agree the rules aren't made to be blindly followed and can be changed, but this also gets into the House Rule Territory, which can vary from person/group to person/group, at least when online using the Rules As Written everyone should be on the same page, regardless of their own house rules.

Re: electric aircraft. We might also have to take into consideration when the passage was originally written and editorial use of C&P with little regard for updating. Its sort of like some of the equipment list/specs seem overly dated for 2017 (ex SB1o's Wilk's PC2020 and its 4MB of RAM and 150MB Harddrive), but seem overly fine for early 199# or 198# (where Megabytes was the defacto standard, unlike today where its almost all in Gigabytes or Terrabytes).

[glitterboy2098]

I'd argue that the let line requirement basically means you need a constant influx of ppe to keep the hover magic active. So while you could make a tw flying ship that works away from leylines, the size of the ppe capacitor would be immense and not really feasible. (Which would be why the splugorth sky ships work.. Biowizardry could create a magic source using enslaved beings or the eyeball things. And elven skyships from pfrpg would use an advanced alchemy or rune magic to the same effect)

But I'd also say that using wings and just replacing the engine that turns the propellors on an aircraft should be easy enough to build for off let line use. Though that horsepower limit would put constraints on performance. At least if replacing an ice engine. I agree in regards to electric engines though, you'd just need to replace the battery or nuclear/fuelcell powersource with a TW generator.

[Shark_Force]

there doesn't appear to be a horsepower limitation, really.

i mean, you take something like a mark V APC or spider skull walker. those are ground vehicles. the conversion rules don't tell you that putting a TW TK engine in is going to reduce performance, and they are some very heavy vehicles. neither does it suggest that if you convert the engine of a big boss or mountaineer or indeed *any* ground vehicle, that there is any noteworthy loss of performance. the engine is, for all intents and purposes, identical except for what kind of fuel is consumed.

again, i'm totally ok with something like a flying ship (which is basically about as practical as a flying brick, and should need absurd levels of thrust to get aloft) being a difficult proposition. that's not converting an engine, that's converting the entire vehicle to do something different. but when all you're doing is replacing an engine with another engine that from all we can tell should have basically the same performance, you shouldn't run into gigantic problems.

[AlanGunhouse]

My two cents worth, you could do it, but it would take a lot of man-hours and gemstones.

[dragonfett]

Something that I just thought of on the topic of TW Aircraft is the fact that they can be expensive to charge with PPE/ISP for a limited amount of flight time (although that limitation can now be mitigated with adding extra gems to increase the PPE/ISP effeciency), and once someone runs out of PPE/ISP, they have to start looking for a spot to land before they wind up crashing, so by requiring all TW Aircraft to be Ley Line bound removes that risk of running out of "gas".

[Shark_Force]

Something that I just thought of on the topic of TW Aircraft is the fact that they can be expensive to charge with PPE/ISP for a limited amount of flight time (although that limitation can now be mitigated with adding extra gems to increase the PPE/ISP effeciency), and once someone runs out of PPE/ISP, they have to start looking for a spot to land before they wind up crashing, so by requiring all TW Aircraft to be Ley Line bound removes that risk of running out of "gas".

the range on TW engines is pretty absurd. i find it more likely that lack of sleep would cause a crash than unexpectedly running out of "fuel".

[13eowulf]

It is my understanding that the Turbo Wingboard and the Crescent Wingboard from the first Siege on Tolkien book dont require let lines. But there are much larger self propelled flying vehicles there as well, just cannot recall names.

[Blue_Lion]

In my current game, we're playing in the Coalition/Tolkeen war on the Tolkeen side. In our last session, we managed to get our hands on a mostly intact Death's Head Transport.

Are there any established rules for converting it into a TW vehicle? I've found stuff for smaller vehicles but nothing of this size so far.

Yes however for the most part they are no longer valid.
The orginal TW write up covered TW converstions some of the vehicle enhanments can be found in BOM but many are lost. There where a few scatered through the SOT.
However in general those do not line up with the TW creation guidelines in RUE.

What you want to look at is the Floater enhancement found in SOT (cant remember what book think it was 6) That covers TW flight system for such a vehicle and should get it off the ground.

[Kelorin]

Some thoughts:
Conventional Car: Power Source: Liquid fuel engine. (gas, diesel, ethanol) . Locomotion: Wheels and driveshaft.
TW Car: Power Source: Magic. Locomotion: Wheels and driveshaft.

Conventional Airplane: Power Source: Liquid fuel engine (jet fuel, avgas). Locomotion: Lift provided by wings; Thrust provided by engines.
TW Airplane: Power Source: Magic. Locomotion: Lift provided by wings; Thrust provided by engines.
TW Airship: Power Source Magic. Locomotion: Lacking engines or wings, Lift and thrust are provided by Levitation or Fly as an Eagle spells.

So here's my thinking. If you are converting an inherently flight worthy design that already has conventional wings, rotors and/or engines to provide lift and thrust, and the conversion is just changing the power source to magic, then your aircraft ought to be able to work away from a ley line since the conventional aircraft parts are doing most of *ahem* heavy lifting. One the other hand, if you are taking an inherently non-flight worthy design like a wooden sailing vessel or a train locomotive where there is nothing to provide conventional lift and thrust, then magic has to do double duty. P.P.E. is the fuel and spells provide lift and thrust. This sort of setup would require either a huge P.P.E. reserve in the form of Talismans or Eyes of Eylor OR would be restricted to ley line travel.

Just my 0.02 credits.

[Shark_Force]

Some thoughts:
Conventional Car: Power Source: Liquid fuel engine. (gas, diesel, ethanol) . Locomotion: Wheels and driveshaft.
TW Car: Power Source: Magic. Locomotion: Wheels and driveshaft.

Conventional Airplane: Power Source: Liquid fuel engine (jet fuel, avgas). Locomotion: Lift provided by wings; Thrust provided by engines.
TW Airplane: Power Source: Magic. Locomotion: Lift provided by wings; Thrust provided by engines.
TW Airship: Power Source Magic. Locomotion: Lacking engines or wings, Lift and thrust are provided by Levitation or Fly as an Eagle spells.

So here's my thinking. If you are converting an inherently flight worthy design that already has conventional wings, rotors and/or engines to provide lift and thrust, and the conversion is just changing the power source to magic, then your aircraft ought to be able to work away from a ley line since the conventional aircraft parts are doing most of *ahem* heavy lifting. One the other hand, if you are taking an inherently non-flight worthy design like a wooden sailing vessel or a train locomotive where there is nothing to provide conventional lift and thrust, then magic has to do double duty. P.P.E. is the fuel and spells provide lift and thrust. This sort of setup would require either a huge P.P.E. reserve in the form of Talismans or Eyes of Eylor OR would be restricted to ley line travel.

Just my 0.02 credits.

sure, i have no problem with needing a ley line for a wing board, tree trimmer, or the flying ships to work (or other similar things). i just think it's ridiculous that a TK engine will work away from a ley line when it is powering a car or hovercycle, but not for an airplane or helicopter.

[Blue_Lion]

Some thoughts:
Conventional Car: Power Source: Liquid fuel engine. (gas, diesel, ethanol) . Locomotion: Wheels and driveshaft.
TW Car: Power Source: Magic. Locomotion: Wheels and driveshaft.

Conventional Airplane: Power Source: Liquid fuel engine (jet fuel, avgas). Locomotion: Lift provided by wings; Thrust provided by engines.
TW Airplane: Power Source: Magic. Locomotion: Lift provided by wings; Thrust provided by engines.
TW Airship: Power Source Magic. Locomotion: Lacking engines or wings, Lift and thrust are provided by Levitation or Fly as an Eagle spells.

So here's my thinking. If you are converting an inherently flight worthy design that already has conventional wings, rotors and/or engines to provide lift and thrust, and the conversion is just changing the power source to magic, then your aircraft ought to be able to work away from a ley line since the conventional aircraft parts are doing most of *ahem* heavy lifting. One the other hand, if you are taking an inherently non-flight worthy design like a wooden sailing vessel or a train locomotive where there is nothing to provide conventional lift and thrust, then magic has to do double duty. P.P.E. is the fuel and spells provide lift and thrust. This sort of setup would require either a huge P.P.E. reserve in the form of Talismans or Eyes of Eylor OR would be restricted to ley line travel.

Just my 0.02 credits.

sure, i have no problem with needing a ley line for a wing board, tree trimmer, or the flying ships to work (or other similar things). i just think it's ridiculous that a TK engine will work away from a ley line when it is powering a car or hovercycle, but not for an airplane or helicopter.

I think the limit on flight was based off them thinking there is a difference in horse power of the engine between cars and aircraft.
jumbo jets have engines with 110,000 horse power.

[Shark_Force]

I think the limit on flight was based off them thinking there is a difference in horse power of the engine between cars and aircraft.
jumbo jets have engines with 110,000 horse power.

if there were jumbo jets in the RMB to convert over to techno-wizardry, that might make sense.

as it stands though, you can convert a train or an ocean liner, so it seems unlikely that it's due to the power of the engine required for a large jumbo jet.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the limit on flight was based off them thinking there is a difference in horse power of the engine between cars and aircraft.
jumbo jets have engines with 110,000 horse power.

if there were jumbo jets in the RMB to convert over to techno-wizardry, that might make sense.

as it stands though, you can convert a train or an ocean liner, so it seems unlikely that it's due to the power of the engine required for a large jumbo jet.

The reason stated was it lacked the power so it is likely they precieved the horse power as high(not that the horse power was high). A ocean liner would require less HP than the same size jet.

[ShadowLogan]

I think the limit on flight was based off them thinking there is a difference in horse power of the engine between cars and aircraft.
jumbo jets have engines with 110,000 horse power.

if there were jumbo jets in the RMB to convert over to techno-wizardry, that might make sense.

as it stands though, you can convert a train or an ocean liner, so it seems unlikely that it's due to the power of the engine required for a large jumbo jet.

The reason stated was it lacked the power so it is likely they precieved the horse power as high(not that the horse power was high). A ocean liner would require less HP than the same size jet.

Correct, it is stated it lacked the power, though I question the idea of conventional horse power. What ever is the reason it appears to have to do with "the Techno-wizard's magic" itself and is not a rooted in technology (or science or physics).

"The techno-Wizard's magic is not normally sufficient to power aircraft, but with the additional energy of the ley line, they can utilize flying devices."-RUE or RMB TW OCC example: TK-Flyer.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the limit on flight was based off them thinking there is a difference in horse power of the engine between cars and aircraft.
jumbo jets have engines with 110,000 horse power.

if there were jumbo jets in the RMB to convert over to techno-wizardry, that might make sense.

as it stands though, you can convert a train or an ocean liner, so it seems unlikely that it's due to the power of the engine required for a large jumbo jet.

The reason stated was it lacked the power so it is likely they precieved the horse power as high(not that the horse power was high). A ocean liner would require less HP than the same size jet.

Correct, it is stated it lacked the power, though I question the idea of conventional horse power. What ever is the reason it appears to have to do with "the Techno-wizard's magic" itself and is not a rooted in technology (or science or physics).

"The techno-Wizard's magic is not normally sufficient to power aircraft, but with the additional energy of the ley line, they can utilize flying devices."-RUE or RMB TW OCC example: TK-Flyer.

SOT has just the device he needs thou (think it was 6) TW floater conversion basically makes a vehicle into a hot air balloon that can be propelled by conventional trust systems or pulled by flying creatures. In the case of a damage death head it could provide the lift to get a non flying transport back in the game.
The biggest issue is in SOT they put a limit on the max size of a vehicle the TW can add any TW enchantments to. I tend to allow TW for larger vehicles but then I tend to encourage TW and operators to design their own gear.

That said if he wanted to use out of the book TW conversions the floater is the way to go to convert a death head to run on magic, low PPE cost and no max time limit if I recall right.(this has the advantage of being easier to get a GM to agree to.)

[ShadowLogan]

Well technically by RMB/BoM you could convert a hovercraft, but not a hover-aircraft (VTOL, Helicopter?) using the TK-Engine. So if you want to turn the DHT into a hovercraft, but not a hover-aircraft you'd be fine. I don't think the TK-engine itself is in RUE.

[Killer Cyborg]

The RMB engine conversion rules do not, IIRC, include nuclear power sources.
For that, you'd need to look at the SB1 TW power source for robots for inspiration.

[boring7]

My opinions are ignorant and possibly wrong, but here there are anyway.

I'm with the rest, just fix the durn thing first.

TW items are chosen instead of tech for 3 reasons:
-You don't have a good power source but lots of mana (e-clips are expensive, as are reactors)
-You don't have a good industrial base, so you need to make up for lack of parts with magic. (and you DO somehow have silver, gold, and gems)
-You want to do something tech can't do. (A surprisingly short list, I'm told there are regenerating robots out there)

Mend The Broken is mana-intensive but can repair anything that isn't completely destroyed. For whatever counts as "destroyed" you will need replacements, but that's both easy and fun. First, assuming you don't have the necessary skills you pester a mechanic. He'll probably want something, like a date with that spooky goth necromancer boi or a second nuke reactor to power his "pimp ride." And he will be too busy with the war effort to fabricate the hover disks and whatnot so he'll just give you a "shopping list" to raid.

Second comes the robbery! There are a lot of ways to steal things from the CS, from raiding a forward supply base all covert-thief style to forging a requisition form and hitting the shipment to just kicking off a major offensive and then looting the wreckage after, but whatever you do you're probably going to have to make a couple of runs grabbing intel and then grabbing the loot.

You may also owe someone some match-making or a case of courvoisier or something, it's in the RP.

Once you have the parts, a few skill checks and some assistance (plus Mend The Broken on everything dented or scratched) will have you a near-mint base-rules Death's Head Transport...time to get upgradin'!

As mentioned upthread you need stealth. There are so many options I won't go into it. Figure out a way to deal with everything from CS grunts to Skull-walker IFF/Radar to Twitchy Tolkeen pickets.

Next up, I'm thinking a fun option is something based on carpet of adhesion. Instead of offense though, it's a way for someone to walk on the outside of your speeding transport, possibly waving a sword and screaming "fly closer so I can hit them with my sword!" Not only fun, but a sound tactic depending on your loadout. I have no idea the rules but I'm betting "expensive, longer duration than the regular spell, can only move and one-quarter speed."

While we're thinking of hulls and mods, this flying base is going to get banged-up. You could probably run a Mend-based regenerating hull scheme but that's boring and I have a much better idea. There's a necromantic techno-wizardry device I've been running into in my game...somewhere (we're IN the vampire kingdoms, but I don't remember if it's in that book) where a weapon and a set of armor are paired up so your vampiric sword "heals" your armor with every strike. Obviously you can't just strap a dagger to your big flying machine, but there are options. I'm just assuming you can create a disturbing set of mandibles for your big ugly skull-faced transport that allow you to messily devour your enemies (or their armor) to regenerate any damage it takes. I figure the "mouth" looks like a disturbing combination of harvest-combine, a row of table-saws, and double-layer of mantis claws. If rules have to be made up I presume you would make a pilot check, and make an attack roll using (pilot skill/10) for your strike bonus to eat healthy targets and for game-balance/fun broken pieces of giant robot or damaged SAMAS suit would only give half (or even a 25%) damage-to-health. Damage per hit? I dunno, 2d6x10 is the highest melee for a power punch on the robotic strength chart, sounds good to me. Maybe a horror check if someone sees your death machine eating people to heal itself?

For purposes of hiding in-between rollicking party-van raids and rides I recommend a self-burial tool based on the Dig spell. Presumably you can get a machine that shifts the earth out of the way and then back so that only a small depression leading to the top hatch is uncovered. Most effective if you don't actually disturb the vegetation and spread enough dirt sideways that the displaced dirt is a gentle hill instead of a huge lump.

In the same vein of utility and elemental magic, I like the Ice spell for things like dropping walls in front of people and possibly for the purposes of fire-fighting. Non-combat utility is nice, it isn't ALL fun and murder in the land of Rifts Murderhobos.

Finally, a DHT is a TRANSPORT, so anything that improves cargo space or lets you move more people/stuff is good. Perhaps a teleport circle that somehow stays with the cargo bay? Or some brand of portable portal? I know there's some time magic that gives people space, but it's late, I'm tired, and I don't have my books in front of me.