Demons and Automatic parry?

[RubberBoot]

most dont come with a hand to hand or have extensive skills wondering how people play it. do you just have them not parry/dodge because of regeneration and they dont actually die they just get sent to their old dimension.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Most every game I know has them able to auto parry just as a general assumption they are familiar with fighting.

[Axelmania]

You mean the GMs house rule it?

I don't like that, personally.

Demons should require combat training to get an automatic parry just like anyone else, unless it's part of their racial abilities.

Otherwise their best bet is to select a paired WP skill, which allows them a simultaneous strike/parry maneuver.

Without that, they can simply opt to do simultaneous power-punches against opponents who engage them in hand to hand. It's what I would expect a feral demon to do, same with a wild animal.

[Nekira Sudacne]

You mean the GMs house rule it?

That is what I said

I don't like that, personally.

You're not in any game I play, so that's fine

[Axelmania]

Doesn't this kind of nerf the relative power of the demons who do explicitly start with an auto-parry or auto-dodge, or have the option of learning WP?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've never ran into any such issues. Not that i am aware of any demons that are explicitly granted an auto parry either, and auto dodge is generally such a good advantage that the one or two demons who have one are still standouts

A weak demon with auto parry is still weak, a strong demon with a hth style is still head and sholder above his peers due to increased bonus across the board. The relative power level is altered very little in practice.

[say652]

I normally give them a Hand to Hand with their listed attacks added to it. So most demons have 8 to 15 attacks depending on level.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Which HtH? Basic, expert, higher?

If its the same, the relative power to each-other is mostly the same, their power relative to PC's spike dramatically, even if its just basic.

[Axelmania]

For demons with high PP and/or inherent high combat bonuses, the bonuses from hand to hand skills make less of an impact, it's the auto-parry which is the major difference.

Let's look at monster balance as a whole. The supernatural Ram-Rat (Wormwood 131) starts with paired weapons in his bonuses. This is something another creature like the Morphworm (pg 130) lacks. Ram-Rats can attack without sacrificing defense, while Morphworms have to choose one or the other. If we gave Morphworms autoparry, that upsets the balance of power.

Many demons are animal-like creatures (Lasae, Aquatics) and giving them auto-parry doesn't make sense.

Demons for the most part are stronger than the creatures they torment, whether being MDC or having an AR and nice regeneration/invisibility/teleport so they really have no inherent need for an auto-parry.

Those who do should be aberrations who got it from skill training, whether a paired WP (strike/parry gives the benefits of auto-parry) or a HtH skill.

Some monsters come with built-in hand to hand equivalents, which should set them above other monsters. Their relative power is nerfed if auto-parry is given to everyone.

If you want to give demons a skill, I'd go with the 'no combat skills' level bonuses.

[say652]

Which HtH? Basic, expert, higher?

If its the same, the relative power to each-other is mostly the same, their power relative to PC's spike dramatically, even if its just basic.

Normally Expert, sometimes one from Rifts Japan.

Really depends on the party level.

I'm not going to through a level 15 Demon with H2H Commando (15 attacks for a Gallu Demon Bull)

At a low level party.

[Nekira Sudacne]

For demons with high PP and/or inherent high combat bonuses, the bonuses from hand to hand skills make less of an impact, it's the auto-parry which is the major difference.

Let's look at monster balance as a whole. The supernatural Ram-Rat (Wormwood 131) starts with paired weapons in his bonuses. This is something another creature like the Morphworm (pg 130) lacks. Ram-Rats can attack without sacrificing defense, while Morphworms have to choose one or the other. If we gave Morphworms autoparry, that upsets the balance of power.

Many demons are animal-like creatures (Lasae, Aquatics) and giving them auto-parry doesn't make sense.

Demons for the most part are stronger than the creatures they torment, whether being MDC or having an AR and nice regeneration/invisibility/teleport so they really have no inherent need for an auto-parry.

Those who do should be aberrations who got it from skill training, whether a paired WP (strike/parry gives the benefits of auto-parry) or a HtH skill.

Some monsters come with built-in hand to hand equivalents, which should set them above other monsters. Their relative power is nerfed if auto-parry is given to everyone.

I never said that giving them all auto parry had no impact on relative power, I said it was not an undue amount in practice. Ramrats still have an edge on morphworms due to paired weapons, just not as much of one. And neither is very scary to an Apok PC one on one either way.

If you want to give demons a skill, I'd go with the 'no combat skills' level bonuses.

no, I think i'll stick with whats been working for us for 10 years. If anything the new balance of power seems more fun than the old one. Demons as a whole are more threatening to PC's this way but not so much that it makes them feel too much worse than before. The fact a morphworm is negligably more powerful compared to a ram-rat than before is a small price I gladly pay.

Do whatever floats your boat in your own game though

[eliakon]

Me personally?
Total house rules here... but I tend to give skills to demons.
Minor demons get H2H Basic
Medium demons might get Expert
A combat demon will get Martial Arts, or Assassin, possibly a full style or Commando.
I also grant skills...
So a lowly demon might have (basically) more or less a peasant package...

It helps to flesh them out more than 'stat block of X killing machine of mindless evil'
which, in my personal games is a desired trait.
I try to run my games with demonic societies, and motivations and goals... instead of mindless evilz for the lulz

[glitterboy2098]

given that the demons and Deevils have been fighting wars since long before humanity existed, and that on both sides the main combatants are effectively immortal... i think it would be a given that they would all have combat training of some form as well as massive amounts of experience in using it. even if there are no dedicated training programs, they have had plenty of opportunity to learn it "on the job" via trial and error. and that more experienced Demons and Deevils would teach the stuff they learned to the less experienced ones.

[Axelmania]

Nekira if you want your treatment to be rules-legal, RUE 93's allowance of Rogue Scholars to teach people secondary skills.

Pg 299 interestingly mentions "the Body Fixer, Cyber-Doc, Rogue Scholar, and Rogue Scientist can select Hand to Hand Combat as an O.C.C. Related Skill or Secondary Skill" so... don't bother wasting an OCC Related Skill on Basic folks, start off with nothing and just get taught HtH Basic right away before you reach 2nd level. Only bother spending OCC Relateds if you want the higher Expert/MA.

*just notices that Martial Arts costs 4 for Scholars, but only 3 for Scientists, who can get Assassin for 4, Scholars can't get assassin... Body Fixers and Cyber-Docs can't get MA or Assassin anymore... WRRY*

Pg 300 mentions Hand to Hand Basic can be selected as a Secondary Skill. Which is nice since I just noticed Paired Weapons isn't. Nor W.P. Deadball which is a darn shame since it's the best cost-saving ranged weapon ever.

I would imagine for Demons to learn anything more advanced than that they would have to get an OCC.

That said, they could still get Aerobic Athletics, General Athletics, Bodybuilding and Running which would all enhance their combat abilities.

I would argue most demons don't bother learning it since they can rely on their healing/AR/MDC to simply simultaneously attack / guerilla warfare their enemies. It's mostly useful in demon vs demon duels so I could see it as more common among those higher in rank who need to fight for their position and might need to bother with stuff like auto-parries.

The rise of the Minion War would also enhance stuff like this. I could see greater demons kidnapping rogue scholars and forcing them to teach HtH basic to Lesser Demons to give them an advantage against the Lesser Dyvalians.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't give demons HtH basic, just auto parry. I don't care if it is rules legal of not. I said it was a house rule didn't I?

I doubt rouge scholars are the only people in the megaverse who can teach demons HtH either. Check out the rules for contnuing education in HU. We know from Armageddon Unlimited both demons and dyvals have access to it. Any demon disguised as a human can enroll in any college, spend a semester buying a physical skill program and get up to martial arts or assassin, plus one leftover for boxing aside. It takes time and money for classes but anyone can do it

[Axelmania]

I can think of lots of species who wouldn't bother, would make more sense with the shapeshifters who can disguise, as you say, particularly if their native form is humanoid where human HTH techniques would be transferable.

[HWalsh]

I don't give demons HtH basic, just auto parry. I don't care if it is rules legal of not. I said it was a house rule didn't I?

I doubt rouge scholars are the only people in the megaverse who can teach demons HtH either. Check out the rules for contnuing education in HU. We know from Armageddon Unlimited both demons and dyvals have access to it. Any demon disguised as a human can enroll in any college, spend a semester buying a physical skill program and get up to martial arts or assassin, plus one leftover for boxing aside. It takes time and money for classes but anyone can do it

Erm. Doesn't boxing specifically say supernatural creatures can't, or more specifically, won't learn it?

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't give demons HtH basic, just auto parry. I don't care if it is rules legal of not. I said it was a house rule didn't I?

I doubt rouge scholars are the only people in the megaverse who can teach demons HtH either. Check out the rules for contnuing education in HU. We know from Armageddon Unlimited both demons and dyvals have access to it. Any demon disguised as a human can enroll in any college, spend a semester buying a physical skill program and get up to martial arts or assassin, plus one leftover for boxing aside. It takes time and money for classes but anyone can do it

Erm. Doesn't boxing specifically say supernatural creatures can't, or more specifically, won't learn it?

Erm...no? It does not mention supernatural beings in any way. I just re-read it in RUE to make sure.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I can think of lots of species who wouldn't bother, would make more sense with the shapeshifters who can disguise, as you say, particularly if their native form is humanoid where human HTH techniques would be transferable.

I don't think most demons would bother in general, hence why I don't try to give them all HtH when all I really want is for them to auto parry.

I'm just pointing out it's possible for non-rouge scholars to teach HtH.

[HWalsh]

I don't give demons HtH basic, just auto parry. I don't care if it is rules legal of not. I said it was a house rule didn't I?

I doubt rouge scholars are the only people in the megaverse who can teach demons HtH either. Check out the rules for contnuing education in HU. We know from Armageddon Unlimited both demons and dyvals have access to it. Any demon disguised as a human can enroll in any college, spend a semester buying a physical skill program and get up to martial arts or assassin, plus one leftover for boxing aside. It takes time and money for classes but anyone can do it

Erm. Doesn't boxing specifically say supernatural creatures can't, or more specifically, won't learn it?

Erm...no? It does not mention supernatural beings in any way. I just re-read it in RUE to make sure.

Actually it does, but under a different skill (thanks Palladium) its under Kickboxing.

RUE Pg. 317

"But true Supernatural creatures/demons never study formal fighting techniques like kickboxing."

Now, one could say that such doesn't apply to Boxing, but "like kickboxing" I think is a nail in the coffin.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yes, they can't learn kickboxing. kickboxing is not regular boxing, it is also much more extensive than boxing. Boxing adds a few bonuses and nice KO, kickboxing adds a number of new moves to your characters inventory, almost like an add-on to your HtH. That is it adds a bunch of formal techniques in the form of the various kick manuvers, whereas boxing just adds on some bonuses, and dosn't add a bunch of techniques, so i'd say that boxing is still valid to learn, as are any other physical skill that dosn't add discrete fighting techniques.

[HWalsh]

Yes, they can't learn kickboxing. kickboxing is not regular boxing, it is also much more extensive than boxing. Boxing adds a few bonuses and nice KO, kickboxing adds a number of new moves to your characters inventory, almost like an add-on to your HtH. That is it adds a bunch of formal techniques in the form of the various kick manuvers, whereas boxing just adds on some bonuses, and dosn't add a bunch of techniques, so i'd say that boxing is still valid to learn, as are any other physical skill that dosn't add discrete fighting techniques.

Obviously this, like so many other things, is going to come down to GM preference.

I, personally, don't allow Supernatural creatures to take boxing, kickboxing, or fencing.

The reasons are:

1 Realism: In my younger days I took both AKB (American Kickboxing) and formal Boxing. I can tell you, the training for both? Really similar.

2 Game Balance: It gives an advantage to people playing non-supernatural creatures, which seem to be all the rage. They aren't natural MDC, they aren't going to regenerate, they can get sick, they have so many drawbacks... They can, however, get that 1 extra attack per round and a few extra bonuses.

[Nekira Sudacne]

1: I abandoned pretense at realism in my RIfts games long ago. it's just not a factor in many of my decisions, at least not when it involves supernatural beings. Why shouldn't a Demigod be able to learn boxing or wrestling? Hercules was a demigod, and a wrestler. Why shouldn't a shapeshifter like Rakasha be able to learn? Nevermind the why they want to, why can't they?
2: I've let supernatural beings take boxing for years, after all, kickboxing and it's vauge note wasn't introduced until rifts GMG after nearly 20 years, and it never caused any problems for supernatural beings to take it. For that matter, I don't think letting demons take kickboxing would be very unbalancing either, although that is pretty clearly banned I think it's a silly rule.
3: I also really don't think it says that supernatural beings can't learn boxing for reasons I can't discribe, so I don't even consider it a houserule to say a dragon can take boxing, your offhand line in another skill altogeather hasn't convinced me there is any rule against demons taking boxing.

[eliakon]

I don't give demons HtH basic, just auto parry. I don't care if it is rules legal of not. I said it was a house rule didn't I?

I doubt rouge scholars are the only people in the megaverse who can teach demons HtH either. Check out the rules for contnuing education in HU. We know from Armageddon Unlimited both demons and dyvals have access to it. Any demon disguised as a human can enroll in any college, spend a semester buying a physical skill program and get up to martial arts or assassin, plus one leftover for boxing aside. It takes time and money for classes but anyone can do it

Erm. Doesn't boxing specifically say supernatural creatures can't, or more specifically, won't learn it?

Erm...no? It does not mention supernatural beings in any way. I just re-read it in RUE to make sure.

Actually it does, but under a different skill (thanks Palladium) its under Kickboxing.

RUE Pg. 317

"But true Supernatural creatures/demons never study formal fighting techniques like kickboxing."

Now, one could say that such doesn't apply to Boxing, but "like kickboxing" I think is a nail in the coffin.

So if one did...
does that mean they are not a true Supernatural creature?

[Killer Cyborg]

I don't give demons HtH basic, just auto parry. I don't care if it is rules legal of not. I said it was a house rule didn't I?

I doubt rouge scholars are the only people in the megaverse who can teach demons HtH either. Check out the rules for contnuing education in HU. We know from Armageddon Unlimited both demons and dyvals have access to it. Any demon disguised as a human can enroll in any college, spend a semester buying a physical skill program and get up to martial arts or assassin, plus one leftover for boxing aside. It takes time and money for classes but anyone can do it

Erm. Doesn't boxing specifically say supernatural creatures can't, or more specifically, won't learn it?

Erm...no? It does not mention supernatural beings in any way. I just re-read it in RUE to make sure.

Actually it does, but under a different skill (thanks Palladium) its under Kickboxing.

RUE Pg. 317

"But true Supernatural creatures/demons never study formal fighting techniques like kickboxing."

Now, one could say that such doesn't apply to Boxing, but "like kickboxing" I think is a nail in the coffin.

So if one did...
does that mean they are not a true Supernatural creature?

Yup.
Works the same as with Scotsmen.

[Axelmania]

I don't think most demons would bother in general, hence why I don't try to give them all HtH when all I really want is for them to auto parry.

I'm just pointing out it's possible for non-rouge scholars to teach HtH.

Unless of course the HU2 universities are populated by Rogue Scholars... but that wouldn't explain how you can learn non-secondary skills with a bonus in those places.

More like there's just no clear rules on it, leading to the problem of level 1 guys teaching other level 1 guys stuff on the road, and detracting from it being a special ability of the Rogue Scholar.

I think it would be somewhat safe to assume that university teachers qualify as (non-rogue) scholar equivalents.

Why wouldn't a demon bother learning 1 level in basic HtH? If they're inclined to parry in the first place then they'll be inclined to want a bonus for it, and some more attacks.

[Nekira Sudacne]

For the same reason they don't bother in canon. I'm not saying auto parry is something demons learn, just that it's something they have instinctually.

[Axelmania]

I'd rather they have twin strike instinctually

[Nekira Sudacne]

I'd rather they have twin strike instinctually

Like I said in the first one, do whatever you want in your own game, i'll do whatever I want in mine