SA:2 Neo-Human

[HarleeKnight]

One of it's Natural Abilities is "Superhuman Transformation" but it doesn't actually say how long it lasts.
It says in the description that it would last as long as you have ISP, and after cutting your base in half, it would continue to lower your base by 2 ISP per hour until you ran out. However, the example implies you can turn it off, as it only lasted for 2 hours for Mentallia, but it continues to imply that is would still need to run it's full duration.
If you can't turn it off, you stay "charged-up" for days while slowly being able to use your powers less and less... which would really suck.
Sooo... can you turn it off or not?

[grimmhold]

My interpretation, is that it keeps going till you are out of I.S.P. You can't turn it off, it just goes.

[Axelmania]

I would have assumed you can turn it off but the example withe Mentallia cements you can't. It has to run its full duration.

The ISP dice lead to clear major tiers of duration varied slightly by ME or XP.

Each 100 ISP is 25 hours and being forced to ride it out leaves you with an unavoidable moment of weakness where you cannot go MDC or regain ISP for an entire hour.

Achilles would want to cycle them off duty for that period.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Each GM will have to make their own choice about the details the books do not cover.

[Axelmania]

All details are covered. Power only ends one way.

Unless perhaps a friendly psi nullifier could help you end it prematurely so you could regain ISP sooner.

[dreicunan]

If that were the case, the example would not talk about not being able to gain more than 152 ISP until the power ends, as the max amount able to be regained would continue lowering. It ends up being a GM call.

[Axelmania]

The example halves 312 to 156, her capacity goes to 152 after 2 more hours.

That max does continue lowering, there no gap in the rules we need gm to resolve.

[dreicunan]

You can keep saying that, and it will continue to be wrong. She stays charged up for two more hours. That is a duration, and the logical reading of the passage is that after those two hours she stopped being supercharged. You don't word it that way if you mean to say "after two hours." Then it mentions a full duration for a power not given a duration, just an absolute limit for how long you can maintain it. Hence, the wording is confusing and whatever is decided is a GM call.

[Axelmania]

That's not the logical reading at all, lemme show you a complete quote instead of paraphrasing in a way that might be misread:

she remains super-charged for two more hours. During that time her ISP capacity is lowered by an additional 4 ISP to 152; this does not affect her current ISP (remains at 96) but even if she meditates, she can't regain more than 152 until the transformation power runs its full duration.

If she was able to cancel the power and begin meditating to restore ISP any time, this would be ignoring the clearly stated "can't regain until ... runs its full duration" condition at the end there.

A power cancelled early hasn't run its FULL duration. This is a power which can't be cancelled, it has to run out.

[dreicunan]

Once again, you can keep claiming that it is clear, and you'll continue to be wrong. It is written in a confusing way and it ends up being a GM call. The power isn't given a duration per se, just a limiting factor on how long it can be maintained. You can try to turn that into a duration to justify your interpretation, but that doesn't change the confusing nature of the passage.

[Axelmania]

I accept that it is not clear to you. I accept you are confused.

However it IS clear, and you are simply wrong. Your not understanding the math does not mean the rules and math are unclear.

You say "the power isn't given a duration".

This is not correct. The power clearly has a "full duration". It tells you this right at the end.

The duration is the ISP base in hours. This is simple math because the power immediately cuts your ISP base in half, and then reduces it by 2 per hour, and then ends when the base reaches 0.

I'll give you an example so you better understand this.

The minimum ISP a Neo-Human can have is 128, by rolling 1 on the D4, 2 on the 2D6, and adding the 12 for 1st level.

This base is halved (reduced by 64 points to 64 points) when the power is activated. This and additional reductions to the base can't be regained until the power runs its full duration.

There is only one stated condition for the power ending: "When the I.S.P. base is utterly depleted".

After being transformed for 24 hours, the Neo-Human in my example has their base (aka capacity) reduced by 48 to 16 points.

After another 7 hours, their ISP base is reduced to 2 points. After 1 more hour, the final 2 points are subtracted, and the base is 0.

This ends the power, the base of 128 points is restored, but it is 0/128 and ISP must be restored as normal through rest/meditation.

Since none of the SA2 RCCs appear to list a unique ISP regeneration rate, this would default to the Rifts Main Book page 113 rate of 2 per hour of rest or sleep, 6 per hour of meditation.

Less impressive than the Mind Melter's 2 per hour of activity, 12 per hour of rest or sleep, but the Neo-Human makes up for their slower ISP regeneration rate with many other strengths.

RUE lists the 6/hour rate on page 165 under Meditation as a healing power and on 168 as a physical power and on 174 as a sensitive power. The list on page 164 also clearly shows it in all 3 categories.

Since the "Determine Psionics" section on RUE 289 doesn't mention anyone getting Meditation for free, the implication appears that you need to buy that power now if you want to regenerate 6 ISP per hour. This would mean a minor psychic would only get 1 single lesser power if they wanted to be able to regenerate ISP themselves.

Unless of course you are open to carrying over rules from the original Rifts, in which case you could carry over the 2 ISP for rest/sleep 6 ISP for meditation and everyone gets meditation rule.

In which case, buying the meditation power should stack on top of that and increase it to 12 ISP per hour.

[drewkitty ~..~]

AM it is unclear because the assumes that the char will want it on till they can't have it on anymore. Whether this unclearness was due to bad writing, or bad editing does not matter.

Arguing over unclearness in Rifts text seams to be unproductive due to that nothing gets settled because there is always some newcomer that keeps arguing the non-rational side of things just because that is how the unclear text says things. And individual GMs will still have to make a house rule on this.

As for the way I would house rule it:
The N-H's MDC power can be turned off when they are done with it.
All master psi's have the meditation skill.
It is only the Adv. Trance State form of meditation that is a "power".

[Axelmania]

It doesn't assume anything about them wanting to keep it on, it clearly can't be turned off willingly, you have to run out of ISP, it has to go its full duration.

Neo-Humans are powerful enough as it is, why give them a power-boost by house-ruling they can turn off this power before running out of ISP? Makes it a lot less interesting.

I've only seen meditation listed in a skill category in Mystic China (where it doesn't list ISP rate but does mention it speeds it up) everywhere else it's been included as a power.

KS went to the trouble of listing Meditation 3 times in Healer/Sensitive/Physical so it was clearly intended to be a power you select in RUE. This happened simultaneously with removing the automatic ISP regeneration.

Doesn't seem wrong to simply have a skill slot spent to get ISP regeneration.

My heart does go out to the Techno-Wizard on pg 128 though since they don't get any choices of powers and don't start with meditation.

I would probably let them roll for random psionics in addition to what the OCC gives. When RUE p289 mentions the 3 ways to get psychic powers it doesn't really say you can only use one way. I guess that means even psychic OCCs like the Mind Melter or Burster can still roll for minor/major psionics too and add them to what the OCC provides as well.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Quote the text the says it can not be turned off before the ISP runs out.

[Axelmania]

You quote me the text saying they can simply turn off the supernatural transformation.

"The neo-human can transform himself into a supernatural being." - doesn't say they can change back

"When the I.S.P. base is utterly depleted, the transformation ends."

I figure you think this only refers to the maximum duration, but it's really the ONLY duration, because we're not told of any other way to end it.

The nail in the coffin is the Mentallia example:

"she can't regain more than 152 until the transformation power runs its full duration."

The full duration is when the ISP base is utterly depleted.

The power prevents the ISP base from coming back, the power ending is how ISP past the reduced base is regained.

If it was possible to simply turn off the power then she could regain more than 152 without the transformation running its full duration. She could simply stop at a non-full duration (perhaps halftime) and regain more than 152 ISP that way, without having to wait until the end.

But Mentallia CAN'T until the FULL duration runs. So she clearly can't turn it off.

The only possible way you could shorten the duration would be to level up and buy Mind-Block Auto-Defense to sacrifice 14 ISP. Even then, since they gain 12 ISP per level, it would only shorten it by an hour (though othewise if you levelled up, it should extend the duration for 6 hours)

[drewkitty ~..~]

The concept is a part of the core rules that psions can just stop their powers whenever they want.

[dreicunan]

@Axelmania: The ad hominem attacks are a nice touch, but you are still wrong. To expand upon what Drewkitty mentioned, see Psyscape, page 33-34, where it states that the psychic can instantly cancel a power at any time, and does not need to use a power for the full duration, but can set it to any duration so long as it does not exceed the maximum possible duration.

[say652]

I accept that it is not clear to you. I accept you are confused.

However it IS clear, and you are simply wrong. Your not understanding the math does not mean the rules and math are unclear.

You say "the power isn't given a duration".

This is not correct. The power clearly has a "full duration". It tells you this right at the end.

The duration is the ISP base in hours. This is simple math because the power immediately cuts your ISP base in half, and then reduces it by 2 per hour, and then ends when the base reaches 0.

I'll give you an example so you better understand this.

The minimum ISP a Neo-Human can have is 128, by rolling 1 on the D4, 2 on the 2D6, and adding the 12 for 1st level.

This base is halved (reduced by 64 points to 64 points) when the power is activated. This and additional reductions to the base can't be regained until the power runs its full duration.

There is only one stated condition for the power ending: "When the I.S.P. base is utterly depleted".

After being transformed for 24 hours, the Neo-Human in my example has their base (aka capacity) reduced by 48 to 16 points.

After another 7 hours, their ISP base is reduced to 2 points. After 1 more hour, the final 2 points are subtracted, and the base is 0.

This ends the power, the base of 128 points is restored, but it is 0/128 and ISP must be restored as normal through rest/meditation.

Since none of the SA2 RCCs appear to list a unique ISP regeneration rate, this would default to the Rifts Main Book page 113 rate of 2 per hour of rest or sleep, 6 per hour of meditation.

Less impressive than the Mind Melter's 2 per hour of activity, 12 per hour of rest or sleep, but the Neo-Human makes up for their slower ISP regeneration rate with many other strengths.

RUE lists the 6/hour rate on page 165 under Meditation as a healing power and on 168 as a physical power and on 174 as a sensitive power. The list on page 164 also clearly shows it in all 3 categories.

Since the "Determine Psionics" section on RUE 289 doesn't mention anyone getting Meditation for free, the implication appears that you need to buy that power now if you want to regenerate 6 ISP per hour. This would mean a minor psychic would only get 1 single lesser power if they wanted to be able to regenerate ISP themselves.

Unless of course you are open to carrying over rules from the original Rifts, in which case you could carry over the 2 ISP for rest/sleep 6 ISP for meditation and everyone gets meditation rule.

In which case, buying the meditation power should stack on top of that and increase it to 12 ISP per hour.

This is how I was taught how the power works and how I as GM always had it function.

[say652]

@Axelmania: The ad hominem attacks are a nice touch, but you are still wrong. To expand upon what Drewkitty mentioned, see Psyscape, page 33-34, where it states that the psychic can instantly cancel a power at any time, and does not need to use a power for the full duration, but can set it to any duration so long as it does not exceed the maximum possible duration.

With things as Powerful as a Neo-Human, i don't think he's wrong in limiting them.

[dreicunan]

@say652: Neo-humans are powerful enough as psykers go, with their best trick being mind trip, but nothing so devastating that I'd describe them as needing limitation. However, that isn't what has been up for debate. His claim was that by the books, the power had to run until the ISP base reached zero. It has now been conclusively demonstrated that according to RAW that is not the case.

People can, of course, house rule to their heart's content.

[say652]

If anone actually checked the book it clearly says.
"When the isp base is utterly depleted the transformation ends"

Ganging up because someone have an answer you don't like is sad.

Even worse because he's Right.

[GhostKnight]

If it goes until they are out of ISP then just do some useless stuff to burn ISP once they are out of danger and can recuperate.

[say652]

True each use of Hyper TK is 50isp.

[dreicunan]

If anone actually checked the book it clearly says.
"When the isp base is utterly depleted the transformation ends"

Ganging up because someone have an answer you don't like is sad.

Even worse because he's Right.

No, he and you are wrong. If you'd actually read what I'd written, you'd know that (as well as the fact that many people have been over that passage from the book). Psyscape pages 33-34, which I previously mentioned, clearly state that a psychic can instantly cancel a power at any time, and does not need to use a power for the full duration. Thus, neo-humans can cancel their transformation power at any time and do not need to wait until the ISP base is down to zero.

[Nightmask]

If anone actually checked the book it clearly says.
"When the isp base is utterly depleted the transformation ends"

Ganging up because someone have an answer you don't like is sad.

Even worse because he's Right.

Which at no point means 'once activated this power cannot be turned off and remains active until no ISP remains', it's just stating the obvious that because the transformation runs on ISP that once all ISP is exhausted the power shuts down. Nothing says the power can't be turned off like any other power which is what you'd have to have to impose that restriction on the power. Since there's no explicit text saying you can't turn it off then you can, you don't have to run out your entire ISP base before it can stop.

[say652]

If anone actually checked the book it clearly says.
"When the isp base is utterly depleted the transformation ends"

Ganging up because someone have an answer you don't like is sad.

Even worse because he's Right.

Which at no point means 'once activated this power cannot be turned off and remains active until no ISP remains', it's just stating the obvious that because the transformation runs on ISP that once all ISP is exhausted the power shuts down. Nothing says the power can't be turned off like any other power which is what you'd have to have to impose that restriction on the power. Since there's no explicit text saying you can't turn it off then you can, you don't have to run out your entire ISP base before it can stop.

This particular power says my quote in the description.

Would you like the page number as well?

Twisting wording doesn't change what the power says.

[Nightmask]

If anone actually checked the book it clearly says.
"When the isp base is utterly depleted the transformation ends"

Ganging up because someone have an answer you don't like is sad.

Even worse because he's Right.

Which at no point means 'once activated this power cannot be turned off and remains active until no ISP remains', it's just stating the obvious that because the transformation runs on ISP that once all ISP is exhausted the power shuts down. Nothing says the power can't be turned off like any other power which is what you'd have to have to impose that restriction on the power. Since there's no explicit text saying you can't turn it off then you can, you don't have to run out your entire ISP base before it can stop.

This particular power says my quote in the description.

Would you like the page number as well?

Twisting wording doesn't change what the power says.

Right, so why are you trying to twist the wording then? Since again that quote does NOT mean 'this power cannot be turned off and must run until all ISP is depleted', that may be what you WANT it to mean but that's not what it ACTUALLY means. It only denotes that the maximum duration is based on how much ISP one has as it cannot run once there is no more ISP. Without text that explicitly states 'this power cannot be turned off and remains active until all ISP is depleted' then it can be turned on and off as long as one has the ISP for it like any other power, the text you quote says nothing of the sort.

[dreicunan]

Also, the quote doesn't say that it runs until ISP is depleted. It says that it runs until ISP BASE is depleted. The example, while poorly written, does make it clear that the reduction in base does not affect current ISP (one would assume that the exception would be id the base went below current ISP). Besides that, as I have cited before, complete with page numbers, Psyscape makes it clear that psychics can cancel their powers at any time and do not have to let them run for a full duration, and thus a neo-human can cancel their transformation power.

[say652]

South America 2, page 150. Under Neo Humans natural abilities. Not getting banned for some one else's inability to comprehend written language.

[Nightmask]

South America 2, page 150. Under Neo Humans natural abilities. Not getting banned for some one else's inability to comprehend written language.

That still crosses the line whether you name someone specifically or not, since you're still insulting someone.

[dreicunan]

Psyscape, under Duration starting on bottom right of page 33 and finishing on top left of page 34:

"The psychic using a mind power can cancel/stop its effect or influence at any time. Likewise, the psychic does not have to create the psionic manifestation for its full duration (or full damage, range, etc.), but can impose any amount of time limit (etc.), as long as it does not exceed the maximum possible duration."

Thus, the neo-human can cancel the transformation at will.

[say652]

It's a Natural ability unique to the Neo Human, not a standard psychic ability

[dreicunan]

It's a Natural ability unique to the Neo Human, not a standard psychic ability

Now that is hilarious. Everything about Neo-Humans is about psychic powers; every other power listed under "Natural Abilities" in not only the Neo-Human but in the write-ups of all the other Achilles Republic mutants is a psychic ability. Sure, it isn't "standard," but it clearly is a psychic power. Its uniqueness to the Neo-Human doesn't change that.

[say652]

I've provided facts from the book as written, draw your own conclusions.

[dreicunan]

I've provided facts from the book as written, draw your own conclusions.

The facts, as written in the books, are that the transformation is a psychic ability and that psychics can cancel their powers at any time. Thus, the transformation is able to be cancelled at will by a neo-human. There is no other conclusion to be drawn unless one is deciding that they don't like that and want to make a house rule that says otherwise.

[say652]

Except in this case the power says cannot be cancelled but feel free to house rule.

[Nightmask]

Except in this case the power says cannot be cancelled but feel free to house rule.

Except nowhere does it say that, that's something you're adding in based on what you THINK the text says.

[say652]

Except in this case the power says cannot be cancelled but feel free to house rule.

Except nowhere does it say that, that's something you're adding in based on what you THINK the text says.

It's says exactly what I've been saying in the description of natural abilities.

The last sentence in the paragraph of power 1.
Megadamage Transformation.


If you checked the book, I have the page number and quoted the book, as well as writing exactly what the book said.


This constant back next Forth merely shows puerile will argue but NOT do the research because that would prover exactly what I have repeatedly stated.

Would you like me to mail you my copy of South America 2 with the paragraph highlighted??

[Nightmask]

Except in this case the power says cannot be cancelled but feel free to house rule.

Except nowhere does it say that, that's something you're adding in based on what you THINK the text says.

It's says exactly what I've been saying in the description of natural abilities.

The last sentence in the paragraph of power 1.
Megadamage Transformation.


If you checked the book, I have the page number and quoted the book, as well as writing exactly what the book said.


This constant back next Forth merely shows puerile will argue but NOT do the research because that would prover exactly what I have repeatedly stated.

Would you like me to mail you my copy of South America 2 with the paragraph highlighted??

I've read the book plenty of times nowhere does it say that you can't turn off the transformation (and I'm not even remotely the only person pointing that out) so however much you feel like arguing and going 'nuh uh that's what it says' nowhere in the text does it say what you insist it says that's YOUR interpretation that you're inserting into the text. That's your opinion that's not a fact, if you want to interpret it that way that's fine but insisting that your opinion is what's written when it isn't isn't going to get you far at all.

[say652]

Yes it does last sentence in the power description, power cannot be turned off until baset is depleted. It's a special abilities not a standard power.

[dreicunan]

We'd already discussed those lines before you joined the thread, but since you insist:

"Furthermore, every hour after the transformation, 2 I.S.P. are subtracted from the character's I.S.P. base, and cannot be regained until the transformation is over. When the I.S.P. base is utterly depleted, the transformation ends."

From the combat example:

"She spends an additional 60 points in the fight (leaving her with 96 I.S.P.) and after defeating the Arkhon cyborg, she remains super-charged for two more hour. During that time, her I.S.P. capacity is lowered by an additional 4 I.S.P., to 152; this does not affect her current I.S.P. (remains at 96), but even if she meditates, she can't regain more than 152 I.S.P. until the transformation power runs its full duration"

Nothing about that indicates that the power MUST be allowed to run until the ISP base is depleted; it doesn't state that it CAN'T be cancelled. And it IS a psychic power. Let's leave aside for the moment that the write-up for them makes it clear that their whole deal is being an incredibly powerful psyker. As I previously pointed out, EVERY SINGLE POWER listed under the Natural Abilities heading for the R.C.C. listings in the Achilles Republic section is a psychic power. The transformation is listed under natural abilities, ergo it is a psychic power. Thus, as stated in Psyscape (pages 33-34; cited above), the power can be cancelled at will, and does not have to be allowed to run its full duration.

[say652]

We'd already discussed those lines before you joined the thread, but since you insist:

"Furthermore, every hour after the transformation, 2 I.S.P. are subtracted from the character's I.S.P. base, and cannot be regained until the transformation is over. When the I.S.P. base is utterly depleted, the transformation ends.".

How is this even a discussion at this point?

[dreicunan]

Perhaps because "When the I.S.P. base is utterly depleted, the transformation ends" does not include the word "only" at the start of the sentence, but you seem to refuse to acknowledge that fact?

[say652]

Word play cannot change the Fact that the power cannot be cancelled by the Psychic.
Improper grammar is not a game mechanic.

[dreicunan]

At some point, you should get around to reading the relevant passage from Psyscape that I've repeatedly pointed out that makes it clear that a psychic can cancel a psychic power at any time. That most certainly is a game mechanic, and thus the fact is that a Neo-human can indeed cancel the transformation power at any time.

[say652]

We'd already discussed those lines before you joined the thread, but since you insist:

"Furthermore, every hour after the transformation, 2 I.S.P. are subtracted from the character's I.S.P. base, and cannot be regained until the transformation is over. When the I.S.P. base is utterly depleted, the transformation ends.".

How is this even a discussion at this point?

The referencing of Psyscape, is correct for a Standard Psionic Power.

Unique Rcc abilities wouldn't fall under the ruling.

While it is a psionic power it is Also First and Foremost a Unique Natural Ability that only the Neo Human possess.

For an mdc transformation that can be ended at will Chi Gung would fit what your Talking about not the Neo Humans Unique Transformation ability

[dreicunan]

As you just said, it is a psychic power; how many people possess it is irrelevant. As a psychic power, it can be cancelled at any time by the psychic using it. Nothing in the text in Psyscape limits the rule to "standard" powers.

[say652]

I presented facts you interpretation is your opinions.

[dreicunan]

Fact: The transformation power is a psychic power (see world book #9, every single RCC from the Achilles Republic as mentioned above).
Fact: Psychics can cancel their powers at will and do not need to let them run until their full duration (see Psyscape, pages 33-34, as mentioned above).

Thus, the only interpretation going on is the same kind of interpretation that goes on when, say, one takes one's cat to a dog park and encounters a sign that says "No cats allowed." Is my cat a cat? Yes. Therefore the rule applies.

Is the transformation power a psychic power? Yes. Therefore the rule that a psychic can cancel it at any time applies.

That is my opinion in the sense that it is my view on the matter, but not in the sense that this view ia stronger than an impression but is less strong than positive knowledge, because we do indeed have positive knowledge of the fact that a neo-human can end the power at will, as illustrated above.

[say652]

And that's a Fine Houserule but not how the power actually works